Otharus Posted 18 April 2012 - 04:45 PM
The OLB describes the decline of a matriarchal civilisation.
http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Matriarchy
I watched the video made by the Norwegian madman Breivik, and noticed to my surprise, that one of the things he had been projecting his hate on, was - besides "diversity", "multiculturalism" and "european imperialism" - "matriarchy". (see screenshot)
Elsewhere on the web, I read that he had been unhappy about the way he was raised by his liberal and feminist mother.
But what does this have to do with matriarchy?
Is the Arabic culture that he fears matriarchal?
Was he scared of women?
Can anyone make sense of this?
######
Alewyn Posted 19 April 2012 - 03:53 PM
Otharus, on 18 April 2012 - 04:45 PM, said:
The OLB describes the decline of a matriarchal civilisation.
My understanding of a matriarchal system is that females rule or govern society. This was not the case with the Fryans. It was a fully democratic system where men governed the "Federation" and the females were seen as custodians of their religion, morals and creed. Somebody in the 19th century (Ottema?) made the mistake of calling it a matriarchal system and since then everybody just parroted his views. This tell me that they did not (and still do not) understand this basic concept of the OLB.
There are quite a few instances in the OLB where they carried on for extended periods (up to 300 years) without a Folk Mother, but they still governed the country.
See "Survivors of the Great Tsunami" (1st Editiion - Page 52; Second Edition - Page 72)
######
Otharus Posted 19 April 2012 - 07:46 PM
Alewyn, on 19 April 2012 - 03:53 PM, said:
My understanding of a matriarchal system is that females rule or govern society.
Wiki:
A matriarchy is a society in which females, especially mothers, have the central roles of political leadership, moral authority, and responsibility for property.
Quote
This was not the case with the Fryans. It was a fully democratic system where men governed the "Federation" and the females were seen as custodians of their religion, morals and creed.
Are Sandbach's translation and your understanding of the Dutch language that bad?
Quote
Somebody in the 19th century (Ottema?) made the mistake of calling it a matriarchal system and since then everybody just parroted his views. This tell me that they did not (and still do not) understand this basic concept of the OLB.
I see, nobody understands this basic concept of the OLB, but you.
Quote
There are quite a few instances in the OLB where they carried on for extended periods (up to 300 years) without a Folk Mother, but they still governed the country.
Those years were not the best. Besides, there were still the BURGFAMNA (Burgh Matrons).
Quote
See "Survivors of the Great Tsunami" (1st Editiion - Page 52; Second Edition - Page 72)
Let me correct just one thing as an example of your flawed understanding.
"Dukes - Hertoga: a democratically elected leader of a district or state. Answerable to the Gevretman [SIC!] or Count." (footnote on p.72)
Hilarious.
Hertog = Hérman = army leader, warlord
Alewyn, I'm sorry to say, but having read a bit more today of your second edition (it was still on my reading list), I will put it aside and can no longer recommend it.
The matriarchal theme of the OLB must be your least favorite. I think you have that aversion in common with some of the more fanatic hoax-theorists from the past.
######
Alewyn Posted 19 April 2012 - 08:52 PM
Which part of my statement do you not agree with?
That it was a democratic dispensation or that women did not govern the country?
How do you explain the Gevretmen or Counts, Dukes, Burghomeisters, Sea Kings, Warrior Kings, Admirals, Aldermen, Merchants, Officers, Marshalls, Magistrates, etc., etc. They were all male and all democratically elected.
A Burghmatron had one citadel under her but a Gevretman had up to three citadels under him, i.e. 3 Burghmatrons.
“9. All market receipts must be divided annually into a hundred parts three days before the Yule Day.
10. The Count and his marshals shall take twenty parts of this; the keeper of the market ten parts, and his assistants five parts; the Folk Mother ONE PART, the midwife four parts, the town ten parts; the poor, that is those that cannot or may not work, fifty parts.”
“4. After three years as a warrior, he becomes a burgher and may then partake in the election of his headman (officer).
5. After seven years as a voter, he may partake in the election of a commander or king and may be elected himself.”
In fact, nothing is said about the democratic rights of females. All that OLB says is that females may become Burgh Matrons after having trained for several years or they may become a Folk Mother for life – nothing else.
“In our citadel this is the arrangement: Seven young maidens attend to the lamp; each watch is three hours. In the rest of their time they do housework, learn, and sleep. When they have watched for seven years, they are free; then they may go among the people, to look after their morals and to give advice. When they have been three years maidens, they may sometimes accompany the older ones.
The writer must teach the girls to read, to write, and to reckon. The elders, or “Greva,” must teach them justice and duty, morals, botany, and medicine, history, traditions, and singing, besides all that may be necessary for them to give advice. The burgh matron must teach them how to set to work when they go among the people.”
As you can see, they were trained to give advise and not to govern.
I will ignore the rest of your sarcastic and unsubstantiated remarks.
######
Otharus Posted 19 April 2012 - 10:16 PM
Alewyn, on 19 April 2012 - 08:52 PM, said:
How do you explain the Gevretmen or Counts, Dukes, Burghomeisters, Sea Kings, Warrior Kings, Admirals, Aldermen, Merchants, Officers, Marshalls, Magistrates, etc., etc. They were all male and all democratically elected.
A Burghmatron had one citadel under her but a Gevretman had up to three citadels under him, i.e. 3 Burghmatrons.
First I will translate the terms you use back into OLB-lingo, to avoid confusion.
1 "Gevretman or Count" = GRÉVETMAN
2 "Duke" = HÉRTOGA = HÉR.MAN = KÉNING
3 "Burghomeister" = BURCH.MÀSTER
4 "Sea King" = SÉ.KÉNING
5 "Warrior King" = KÉNING
6 "Admiral" = WIT.KÉNING = SÉ.KÉNING
7 "Alderman" = ALDERMÀN = GRÉVETMAN
8 "Merchants" = KÁPLJUD
9 "Officer" = HÉR.MAN = KÉNING
10 "Marshalls" = ??? (not found in your translation)
11 "Magistrates" = GRÉVETMAN
So that reduces your impressive list to:
1 = 7 = 11: GRÉVETMAN
2 = 5 = 9: HÉRTOGA, HÉR.MAN or KÉNING
3: BURCH.MÀSTER
4 = 6: SÉ.KÉNING or WIT.KÉNING
8: KÁPLJUD
Number 2 was in charge of the army (when there was war), number 4 was in charge of the fleet, 8 were merchants.
So the only ones with administrative functions were 1 and 3 (?).
3. BURCH.MÀSTER is mentioned only once on page 17. This function is not described. We only know that people who wanted counsel from the Mother had to see him first, then the doctor (HÉLENER), and finally the Mother. It does not look like this was a very important function.
1. GRÉVETMAN - We don't know much more than that they had 'provinces' with various burghs under their care (HOD), and in a conflict between them and the people, the Mother would decide how to settle it (p.18).
Of course there will have been other important male positions.
Matriarchy doesn't mean that all men play insignificant roles.
But the highest position was the Folk-mother or Mother-of-honor, what we would call a Queen (exept she was chosen).
She was considered and supposed to be the wisest and would make final decisions.
Much more is said about the Mothers, than about the second in hierarchy, the Grévetmanna.
Third there were the Burg-Famna.
In a sliding scale from matriarchal to patriarchal, the Fryas before Friso (see page.151-154 of original manuscript) were more matriarchal, specially when compared to all known major cultures. Our present culture is also not 100% patriarchal, but more that than matriarchal.
BTW, the Netherlands now have the 4th Queen in succession, which of course doesn't make NL matriarchal, but more so, one might say, than the USA, that has only had male presidents. Anyway, different story.
######
Otharus Posted 19 April 2012 - 10:52 PM
Otharus, on 19 April 2012 - 10:16 PM, said:
... the Fryas before Friso (see page.151-154 of original manuscript) were more matriarchal...
[153/13]
INNA BOSM THES FOLKIS ANTSTONDON NW TWA PARTÍJA.
THA ALDA ÀND ÀRMA WILDON WITHER ÉNE MODER HÀ.
MEN THÀT JONGK.FOLK THÀT FVL STRÍDLUST WÉRE.
WILDE.NE TÁT JEFHA KÀNING HÁ.
THA ÉROSTA HÉTO HJARA SELVA MODER HIS SVNA
ÀND THA ÔTHERA HÉTON HJARA SELVA TÁT.HIS SVNA.
MEN THA MODER.HIS SVNA NE WRDE NAVT NI MELD.
HWAND THRVCHDAM THÉR FÉLO SKÉPA MÁKED WRDE.
WAS HÉR OVIRFLOD TO FARA SKIPMÁKAR.
SMÉDA. SÍL.MÁKAR RÉP.MÁKER
ÀND TO FARA ALLE ÔRA AMBACHTIS LJUD.
THÉR TO BOPPA BROCHTON THA SÉ.KÀMPAR ALLERLÉJA SÍRHÉDA MITH.
THÉR FON HÉDON THA WIVA NOCHT.
THA FÁMNA NOCHT.
THA MANGÉRTNE NOCHT.
ÀND THÉROF HÉDON AL HJARA MÉGUM NOCHT
ÀND AL HJARA FRJUNDUM ÀND ÁTHUM.
[Sandbach p.207]
Among the people there now existed two parties.
The old and the poor wished to have the mother again,
but the young and the warlike wished for a father and a king.
The first called themselves mother's sons,
the others father's sons,
but the mother's sons did not count for much;
because there were many ships to build,
there was a good time for all kinds of workmen.
Moreover, the sea-rovers brought all sorts of treasures,
with which the maidens were pleased,
the girls were pleased, and their relations and friends.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~
My idea is, that just like after every major 'revolution', the Friso-Frisians (patriarchally organised Gértmen, from India and Alexander's army) have tried to erase the past of the Frya-Frisians (matriarchal Frya's that had never left their motherland). (See Frisian 'fantastic' historiography of Scarlensis, in which prince Friso from India finds this land only inhabited by a few primitive 'giants'...)
Then came the Romans and after them Christianization (then Reformation, Enlightenment, French Revolution, etc.).
If the Germans would have won the WWII, I would have learned at school that they had liberated us and had finally introduced a decent civilization. I would have learned that before Holland became part of the 'Third Empire', it had been a degenerated, primitive wasteland around here.
They would have destroyed books, art, symbolic buildings etcetera.
######
Alewyn Posted 20 April 2012 - 06:04 AM
It would appear that your ability to interpret the OLB is even worse than my command of the Dutch language:
1. A Sea King WAS NOT an Admiral. The OLB is very clear about that. Just read the history of Tunis & Inka again. One was elected a Sea King and the other an Admiral. Why would the OLB have made the distinction (in one sentence!) if they were both the same?
“When the young warriors had assembled together, they chose Wodin to be their leader or king. The naval force chose Tunis for their sea-king and Inka for their rear-admiral.”
2. In the very first chapter the OLB clearly differentiates between some of the different positions:
“These are the names of the Grevetmen (Counts) under whose auspices this book is composed:
1. Apol, Adela’s husband; three times HE WAS sea-king; now HE IS Count over Astfliland and over the Linda areas. The burghs Liudgarda, Lindahem, and Stavia are under his hat (jurisdiction).
2. The Saxman Storo, Sytia’s husband; Count over the high moorlands and forests. Nine times HE WAS chosen as Duke, that is commander. The burghs Buda and Mannagardaforda are under his jurisdiction.
3. Abelo, Jaltia’s husband; count over the Southern Flylands (marshlands). Four times HE WAS commander. The burghs Aken, Liudburgh, and Katsburgh are under his jurisdiction.
4. Enoch, Dywcke’s husband; count over West Flyland and Texland . Nine times HE WAS chosen as sea-king. Waraburgh , Medeasblik , Forana, and Fryasburgh are under his jurisdiction.
5. Foppe, Dunro’s husband; count over the Seven Islands . Five times HE WAS sea-king. The burgh Walhallagara is under his jurisdiction.”
From the above it is quite clear that Counts, Dukes (commanders), sea kings, etc are different positions. If you read on you will see that Magistrates (Jurists) were different from Grevetmen (politicians / administrators)
In your fervor to make a movie and be heralded the “rediscoverer” of the OLB, you do not necessarily have to discredit my attempts. Just stick to the facts and you will gain much more credibility.
A word of caution (or friendly advise, if you wish): Do not make the same mistake as Steele by corrupting the OLB to meet your own agenda. I am certain you will understand what I mean without spelling it out here.
For more than a 140 years the Dutch have tried to silence any non-Dutch investigators with the lame tactic that we do not understand the language. That is nonsense and I have now proven that. The more subtle differences in interpretations here and there between Dutch and non-Dutch speakers does not detract from the overall message of the OLB despite your attempts to over-emphasize these.
######
Otharus Posted 20 April 2012 - 06:40 AM
Alewyn, on 20 April 2012 - 06:04 AM, said:
It would appear that your ability to interpret the OLB is even worse than my command of the Dutch language:
1. A Sea King WAS NOT an Admiral. The OLB is very clear about that. Just read the history of Tunis & Inka again. One was elected a Sea King and the other an Admiral.
The OLB is not written in Dutch, but in Oldfrisian (or a reconstruction of it).
I read and understand it in the original language.
You used the English and Dutch translations from 1876, that are both full of mistakes.
This thread has loads of examples of that by now.
I used your very own translation to translate your "admiral" (not used in OLB) back, but it appears that you have not been consequent. (Don't blame me for that):
From your translation (2nd ed.):
p.339 - "The king (Admiral) twelve portions, the rear admiral seven"
Original p.27:
THI WIT KÉNING TWILF MÔNIS DÉLA. THI SKOLT BY NACHT SJUGUN DÉLA
So you yourself suggested that king = admiral.
(This was the first time the word appeared in your translation and I did not look further. I assumed you would have been consequent. Besides, you said "admiral", not "rear-admiral".)
Now, who is corrupting the OLB?!
Your translation is a mess.
######
Otharus Posted 20 April 2012 - 06:55 AM
Alewyn, on 20 April 2012 - 06:04 AM, said:
From the above it is quite clear that Counts, Dukes (commanders), sea kings, etc are different positions. If you read on you will see that Magistrates (Jurists) were different from Grevetmen (politicians / administrators)
Your translation (2nd ed., p.333)
11. At the election of the defenders no-one of distinction in the burgh will have a voice,
neither the magistrates nor other leaders, but only the common folk.
The original manuscript (p.16):
11. BY THÀT KJASA FON THA WÉRAR NE MÉI NIMMEN FON THÉRA BURCH NÉN STEM NAVT NE HÀVA.
NI THA GRÉVETMANNA JEFTA ÔTHERA HÁVEDA. MÀN THÀT BLÀTA FOLK ALLÉNA.
It's sad to see you loose your credibility.
######
Otharus Posted 20 April 2012 - 09:57 AM
Alewyn, on 20 April 2012 - 06:04 AM, said:
For more than a 140 years the Dutch have tried to silence any non-Dutch investigators with the lame tactic that we do not understand the language.
Please give one example of a non-Dutch investigator that 'the Dutch' (who? be specific) have tried to silence.
The OLB suggests that from 2200 BC till 300 BC (except some times of crisis) the Frya's had chosen 'Folk-Mothers' as their highest authority.
Then you suggest that anyone who describes this civilization as a 'matriarchy' has not understood the OLB.
I have argued why I don't agree with you and I gave some examples of your confusing (misleading) translations.
How is that trying to silence you?!
I have quoted you on my blog before and there is even a link to your website.
I rather let you speak frankly like you just did and expose yourself, than silence you.
######
Otharus Posted 20 April 2012 - 02:51 PM
Otharus, on 19 April 2012 - 10:16 PM, said:
But the highest position was the Folk-mother or Mother-of-honor, what we would call a Queen (exept she was chosen).
She was considered and supposed to be the wisest and would make final decisions.
MOD ?=> MODER (oldfrisian)
moed ?=> moeder (dutch)
mut ?=> mutter (german)
mood ?=> mother (english)
MODER - oldfrisian, middle-english
mother - english
moeder - dutch
mutter - german
mor - danish, swedish, norwegian
moer - westfrisian dialect
móðir - icelandic, old-norse
mháthair - irish
μητέρα - greek
mater - latin
mère - french
madre - italian, spanish
mãe - portuguese
mare - catalan
... etcetera
(! fam - welsh)
I wonder if in Oldfrisian "MODER" is somehow related to "MOD".
In Dutch these words are "moeder" and "moed", in German "mutter" and "mut".
In the OLB the word "MODER" is used 52 times (and twice spelled as "MODAR" in Rika's letter, p.191)
To see if it makes sense that MOD and MODER are related, I analyzed the possible meanings of the OLB-word "MOD" (related modern words: dutch (ge-)moed, german mut, english mood), I will list the relevant fragments that I found. I have no final answer yet, just think it's an interesting thought, worth considering.
The following uses of the word were NOT included:
MOD (1x) = moe(de) (dutch), müde (german), tired (english)
MODE (1x in HAVESMODE) = mond (dutch), mund (german), mouth (english)
ERMODE, ÀRMODE (3x) = armoede (dutch), armut (german), poverty (english)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
1. [007/03]
THES GÍRFÜGELS BLIKKAR WÉRON VNMODICH BY HJRA.S
[O+S p.13]
de blikken des grijpvogels waren vreesachtig bij de hare
her eyes ... shot out glances like those of a bird of prey
[the looks (in the eyes) of vultures were dispirited compared to hers]
2. [008/08]
HJU VRFYADE THA GODA VMBE HJARA FRYMOD
[O+S p.15]
Zij verfoeide de goeden wegens hunne vrijmoedigheid
She despised the frankness of the good [for their free spirit]
3. [011/23]
THA MODELÁSA SKILUN ÀMMAR SWIKA VNDER HJARA AJN LÉD
[O+S p.19]
De moedeloozen zullen immer bezwijken onder hun eigen leed
that those who give way to discouragement sink under their burdens
[the dispirited will always collapse under their own sorrow]
4. [018/25]
IS HJRA SKILD TVIVELIK JEFTA BLÁT FORMODA
[O+S p.29]
Is hare schuld twijfelachtig of bloot vermoeden
If her guilt is doubtful or only suspected [suspicion, presumption]
5. [032/04]
SETMA THÉR BI ALLER MÀNNISKA ÉLIK AN HJARA MOD PRENTH SEND
[O+S p.47]
inzettingen [zeden], die bij alle menschen gelijkelijk in hun gemoed geprent zijn
sentiment which is implanted in the breast [or: heart, spirit] of every man
6. [088/07]
EN ÉRE.MODER ÁCHT ALSA RÉN IN RA MOD TO WÉSÁNE
AS HJA BUTA BLIKTH
[O+S p.123]
eene Eeremoeder behoort zoo rein in haar gemoed te zijn,
als zij uitwendig schijnt
an Eeremoeder [a Mother-of-honor] ought to be as pure in her conscience
as she appears outwardly
7. [096/22]
JETA GRÁTER THEN HJRA LICHEME. IS HJRA WISHÉD
ÀND HJRA MOD IS LIK BÉDE TO SÉMINE
[O+S p.133]
hare wijsheid is nog grooter als haar ligchaam,
en haar moed is gelijk beide te zamen
Her wisdom exceeded her stature,
and her courage was equal to both together
8. [101/06]
ALDAM BIDRÍWATH HJA MITH EN RUM EMOD
[O+S p.139]
Dat alles bedrijven zij met een ruim gemoed [=> emotie?]
They do all this with an easy conscience
9. [104/02]
THÀN ... WIL IK ÀWET IN THIN MOD SÉJA
IN BITROUWA THÀT ET KÍMA GROJA ÀND FRÜCHDA JÉVA MÉI
[O+S p.143]
Dan ... wil ik iets in uw gemoed zaaijen
in vertrouwen, dat het kiemen en groeijen en vruchten geven mag
Then ... I will sow something in your conscience,
in confidence that it will take root, grow, and bear fruit
10. [104/10]
THÁ GVNG WRALDA TO ÀND WROCHTE IN HJRA MOD
NIGUNG ÀND LIAVDE ANGGOST ÀND SKRIK
[O+S p.143]
Toen ging Wralda heen en wrocht in haar gemoed
neiging en liefde, angst en schrik
Then Wr-alda wrought in her conscience
inclination and love, anxiety and fright
11. [133/04]
MAN IS AN FORMODA THÀT THJU MÀM HORDOM DÉN HETH
[O+S p.181]
men is in vermoeden, dat de moeder overspel [hoerdom] bedreven heeft
they suspect that the mother has committed adultery ['whoredom']
12. [141/11]
THA ÉWA THÉR WR.ALDA BI.T.ANFANG IN VS MOD LÉIDE
SKILUN ALLÉNA HÉRAD WERTHA
[O+S p.191]
de wetten die Wralda bij den aanvang in ons gemoed legde,
zullen alleen gehoord worden
the laws that Wr-alda in the beginning instilled into our consciences
shall alone be listened to
13. [042/12]
SA HWA IN HÁSTE MODE THA UT NID AN NEN OHERIS LÉJA BREKTH.
AGNA UT STÁT JEFTHA THOTH
[O+S p.61]
Zoo iemand in drift of uit boosheid een ander leden breekt,
een oog uitstoot, ofte tand
If a man in a passion or out of illwill breaks another's limb
or puts out an eye or a tooth
14. [144/15]
MITS THÀT HJA MOD HALDE
[O+S p.197]
mits dat zij moed houden
if they preserve their courage
15. [145/17]
THÉRVMBE NÉDE HJU NÉNE MOD HÁN VMBÉNE FOLGSTERE TO KJASANE
[O+S p.197]
daarom had zij geen moed gehad om eene opvolgster te kiezen
therefore she had not had the courage to choose a successor
16. [146/09]
WÉMOD SIN ALDESTE HETH ER AN KAVCH BONDEN
[O+S p.199]
Weemoed zijne oudste heeft hij aan Kauch verbonden
Weemoed ['melancholy'], his eldest daughter, he married to Kauch
17. [190/04]
SÁ SKILUN JY THÉRTHRVCH SLÁVONA WERTHA
TO SMERT FON FRYA ÀND JOWE HÁG.MOD TO.NE STRAF
[O+S p.229]
zoo zult gij daardoor slaven worden
tot smart van Frya en tot straf van uwen hoogmoed
you will become slaves,
to the sorrow of Frya and to the punishment of your pride [hubris]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So we have (# are fragment numbers):
#1 VNMODICH - (dutch) onmoedig, vreesachtig, laf - (english) dispirited, fearful
=> negative version of MODICH (dutch: moedig) - courageous, brave
#2 FRYMOD - (dutch) vrijmoed, vrijmoedigheid - (english) free-spirit, frankness
#3 MODELÁSA, from MODELÁS - (dutch) moedeloos - (english) without courage, dispirited
#4,11 FORMODA - (dutch) vermoeden - (english) suspect, suspicion, presumption
#5,6,8,9,10,12 MOD - (dutch) gemoed - (english) heart, spirit, conscience
#7,14,15 MOD - (dutch) moed - (english) courage
#8 IN HÁSTE MODE (expression) - (dutch) in drift, in 'haastmoed' - (english) in a passion, in a hurry ('hasty mood')
#16 WÉMOD - used as personal name, meaning 'melancholy' - (dutch) weemoed
#17 HÁG.MOD - (dutch) hoogmoed - (english) pride, hubris ('high-mood')
~ ~ ~
Conclusion: the word has to do with mood, conscience, spirit, courage
Is this what mothers are supposed to pass on to their children?
######
Alewyn Posted 20 April 2012 - 05:54 PM
Otharus, on 20 April 2012 - 09:57 AM, said:
Please give one example of a non-Dutch investigator that 'the Dutch' (who? be specific) have tried to silence you.
In post 11199 yesterday YOU said:
Quote
Are Sandbach's translation and your understanding of the Dutch language that bad?
From your comment I took it that if my or anyone else’s Dutch is not as good as yours, we are at a disadvantage and therefore not entitled to disagree with Dutch speakers on their interpretation of the OLB. This is what I mean when I say that non-Dutch speakers are in essence discredited and therefore effectively silenced. I took it for granted that you and Abramelin would understand that it did not mean being literally silenced or gagged. Perhaps I should in future spell out what I mean - for your benefit.
Btw, I am fully aware that the original manuscript was written in Old Frisian, but you brought up Dutch as a prerequisite here to understanding the OLB.
I find it quite strange that every Dutch (and English) translation of the OLB over the last 140 years has been criticized in this forum by you and Abe. Some of these translators clearly had much better credentials than anybody participating here. Why don’t you publish your own versions instead of criticizing other’s efforts? Then perhaps we can all sing from the same hymn sheet. Please put your money where your mouth is and subject yourself to public scrutiny.
######
Otharus Posted 21 April 2012 - 09:16 AM
Alewyn, on 20 April 2012 - 05:54 PM, said:
YOU said:
> Otharus, on 19 April 2012 - 07:46 PM, said:
> Are Sandbach's translation and your understanding of the Dutch language that bad?
From your comment I took it that if my or anyone else’s Dutch is not as good as yours, we are at a disadvantage and therefore not entitled to disagree with Dutch speakers on their interpretation of the OLB. This is what I mean when I say that non-Dutch speakers are in essence discredited and therefore effectively silenced.
You took a lot from my comment that was not there. It was just a (slightly skeptical) comment on what you wrote:
Alewyn, on 19 April 2012 - 03:53 PM, said:
My understanding of a matriarchal system is that females rule or govern society. This was not the case with the Fryans. It was a fully democratic system where men governed the "Federation" and the females were seen as custodians of their religion, morals and creed.
If a culture by tradition and law has a "Mother" (Latin "mater") as their highest authority, how can you claim it's not a matriarchy? Anyway, we could have had a decent discussion about that, but what triggered my skepticism was how you continued:
Quote
Somebody in the 19th century (Ottema?) made the mistake of calling it a matriarchal system and since then everybody just parroted his views. This tell me that they did not (and still do not) understand this basic concept of the OLB.
Ottema did not use the term, you don't know who coined it or 'parroted' it. I used it, but you did not have the guts to address me directly. Instead you wrote "they did not (and still do not) understand this basic concept of the OLB".
Quote
Btw, I am fully aware that the original manuscript was written in Old Frisian, but you brought up Dutch as a prerequisite here to understanding the OLB.
That is because I know that you don't understand Oldfrisian and that you are therefore dependant of Ottema's Dutch and Sandbach's English translations, both from 1876.
Quote
I find it quite strange that every Dutch (and English) translation of the OLB over the last 140 years has been criticized in this forum by you and Abe.
Why is that strange? Should we just accept them as the highest and final authority? We have discovered many errors and suggested wonderful improvements. This forum is great for that. Future translators can and will benefit from all the work we did here.
Quote
Why don’t you publish your own versions instead of criticizing other’s efforts?
This criticizing is not ment to put people down, but to correct mistakes and improve what can be better. That is what science and philosophy should be about. And I do publish, both here and on my blog.
Welcome to the age of publishing without money and paper!
I intent to publish an oldfashioned book too at some point, but I want it to be scientifically sound and my standards are high. As long as I am making important discoveries, I'll stick to online publishing, and I hope to inspire other investigators (and creative artists) as well.
######
Otharus Posted 21 April 2012 - 11:15 AM
Alewyn, on 20 April 2012 - 05:54 PM, said:
From your comment I took it that if my or anyone else’s Dutch is not as good as yours, we are at a disadvantage and therefore not entitled to disagree with Dutch speakers on their interpretation of the OLB.
You can disagree when you first do your homework and know what you are talking about.
If you were not so arrogant and stubborn, I would not have had to knock you off your pedestal.
Things got lost in Sandbach's translation, and as I will show in this post, your adaptation of it made things even more confusing (in this example).
You wrote:
Alewyn, on 20 April 2012 - 06:04 AM, said:
It would appear that your ability to interpret the OLB is even worse than my command of the Dutch language:
A Sea King WAS NOT an Admiral. The OLB is very clear about that.
Now look at the original (p.27-28) and some of the existing translations, yours included.
Ottema 1872:
Sandbach 1876:
Jensma 2006 (great use of footnotes!):
De Heer 2008 (my favorite!):
Raubenheimer 2011:
The whole idea that WITKÉNING = Seaking = etymology of Viking? gets lost in the existing English translations.
######
Otharus Posted 21 April 2012 - 11:53 AM
Okay, I admit it. I have a sadistic side too, but only with masochists that beg for it. LOL
Alewyn, on 20 April 2012 - 06:04 AM, said:
It would appear that your ability to interpret the OLB is even worse than my command of the Dutch language
...
If you read on you will see that Magistrates (Jurists) were different from Grevetmen (politicians / administrators)
Original (p.16):
Ottema 1872:
Sandbach 1876:
Raubenheimer 2011:
(BTW, in the original, the last 5 words translate literally: "but only the naked people")
######
Alewyn Posted 21 April 2012 - 06:21 PM
Otharus, on 21 April 2012 - 09:16 AM, said:
Ottema did not use the term, you don't know who coined it or 'parroted' it. I used it, but you did not have the guts to address me directly. Instead you wrote "they did not (and still do not) understand this basic concept of the OLB".
Don’t flatter yourself. It does not take guts to address you directly.
You took the word “parroted” personally and then became abusive. I certainly did not expect that from you.
You are not the first to have used the term “matriarchal system” or “matriarchy”. This is a very common perception of the OLB. Even Wikipedia says:
“Themes running through the Oera Linda Book include catastrophism, nationalism, matriarchy, and mythology. The text alleges that Europe and other lands were, for most of their history, ruled by a succession of folk-mothers presiding over a hierarchical order of celibate priestesses dedicated to the goddess Frya, daughter of the supreme god Wr-alda and Irtha, the earth mother.”
Would you say that Britain or the Netherlands are “matriarchies” because they have queens? You must agree that calling them such would create a totally wrong perception - exactly what you and others are doing to the OLB.
The above quote from Wiki sums up the general (and your) perception that the Fryans were ruled or governed by females. My point is that this is simply incorrect. Granted, the head of state was a female who had the power of veto and who also presided over the appeal court. Her other main functions were to guard over their morals and to maintain the peace. Their country, however, was governed by a democratically elected, male dominated general assembly who had the power to dispose of the Folk Mother or even to sentence her to death in cases of gross misconduct.
Chapter 1 of the Book of Adela’s followers:
“To withstand this disaster a general assembly was called of all those MEN who were in good standing with the matrons (famna).”
“Therefore I advise you, you should choose upright MEN who will fairly divide the labour and the fruits, so that no-one shall be exempt from work or from the duty of defence.”
(This is the first mention of the country having been governed for more than 30 years without a Folk Mother and even then they failed to elect a new head of state. So, who governed the country? Later we read about the election of Gosa Makonda after 282 years without a Folk Mother))
Chapter 6 – Laws for the Governance of Burghs
All the Mother’s advisors or councillors were men:
“To the Mother and every Burgh Matron there will be allocated twenty-one burghers; seven elder wise men, seven elder soldiers and seven elder mariners.”
Chapter 7
A man was regarded as the head of his household:
“If a man has taken a wife, HE must be given a house and yard.”
Chapter 8
Some stipulations of how men obtained voting rights. Nothing is said anywhere about women voting or their democratic rights.
“4. After three years as a warrior, he becomes a burgher and may then partake in the election of his headman (officer).
5. After seven years as a voter, he may partake in the election of a commander or king and may be elected himself.”
The Folk Mother and Burgh “Famnas” were the only women voted in. In the case of the Folk Mother, her appointment was for life and she could elect her successor. So not even every Folk Mother was democratically elected.
Chapter 9 - The rights of Mothers and Kings.
Herewith just an extract. Please read the whole chapter again.
“1. If war breaks out, the Mother sends her messengers to the King; the King sends messengers to the Counts to defend the country.
2. The Counts call all the citizens together and decide how many men shall be sent.
3. All the resolutions must immediately be sent to the Mother by messengers and witnesses.”
As stated before, the Mother had the power of Veto but it seems fairly certain that she had to listen to the advise of her MALE councillors:
“4. The Mother lets all resolutions be gathered and gives an average number, that is, the middle number of all resolutions together, which the people as well as the King should be satisfied with for the time being.”
I have also stated previously that one of the Folk Mother and the Burgh Matrons’ primary functions was to guard over the morals of the nation:
“5. If the armed forces are on campaign, the King only have to consult with his headmen (officers), though there must always be three burghers without voice (observers) from the Mother sitting in front. These burghers must send daily messengers to the Mother so that she would know if anything is done contrary to the counsels of Frya.”
Chapter 11 Minno’s Writings
Rules made by Minno ( a male).
Chapter 14 From Minno’s writings:
(Hellenia speaking)
“That is also our desire, and therefore our people choose their LEADERS, COUNTS, COUNCILLORS, CHIEFS, AND MASTERS FROM THE WISEST OF THE GOOD MEN, in order that every man shall do his best to become wise and good.”
Chapter 24 – Tunis and Inka
“With all this treasure Tunis sailed into the Flymar. THE COUNT from West Flyland was so impressed with all these goods that HE arranged that Tunis be allowed to have a warehouse at the mouth of the Flymar.”
Sometimes the Mother’s advice was simply ignored:
“The Mother advised that they should sell anything except iron weapons but nobody paid attention to her.” (ca 2000 BC)
Chapter 31 – Murder of Frana
“But the Denemarkar had no ears, they never understood that they could lose their morals and therefore they paid no attention to her.”
Note the following deliberation by the general council (male); The mother’s advice was sought; not her ruling:
“In the northernmost corner of the Middle Sea there lies an island at the coast. They now came and asked to buy it. A general council meeting was called. The mother’s advice was sought, …”
In my book I spoke about a Fryan “Federation” of states (Possibly not much more than City States as per the later Greek Model). Each was ruled by a Count but they still fell under the moral guidance of the Folk Mother. It is also very telling that she is often referred to as the “Honorary” Mother in the OLB.
The Writings of Adelbrost and Appolonia, Chapter 1
(In trying to elect a new Folk Mother after the Murder of Frana some 30 years before)
“Each state was in favour of its own matron and nobody would yield. Therefore none was chosen, and the realm became disordered.”
And
“Every RULER imagined that HE did enough if HE looked after HIS own state, and no one would cooperate with the others.”
“With the Burgh Matrons it was even worse. Everyone relied on her own wisdom, and whenever the Counts did anything without her, she would create distrust between them and their people.”
So you see, the counts could and did rule without the Burgh Matrons (Famna, or whatever you want to call them) by simply ignoring them.
I can go on and on but I am certain that you get my drift: The Mother and Matrons were, to a large extent, figure heads with more ceremonial functions than executive powers. Only the Mother had the power of Veto and then mostly on matters concerning morals and religion – almost like a theocracy.
######
Otharus Posted 21 April 2012 - 07:13 PM
Alewyn, on 21 April 2012 - 06:21 PM, said:
Would you say that Britain or the Netherlands are “matriarchies” because they have queens
That is a completely different story. Their function is inherited, they are women by chance.
In OLB it was tradition and law that their 'first' was a lady.
Anyway it is clear that compared to the Abrahamic tradition that followed, women had a much more important role and were much more respected. Were in the Old Testament the first man (human) was a male, in OLB humanity started with females.
And what about this: The Frya's, Kelt's and Gertmen were even named after their 'mother'.
But we seem to have different notions of what matriarchy is exactly.
Another important thing you should know is that where translations are hij/he and man/men, in the original the word is often neutral, so man should be mens/human, and he = he/she.
I will answer in more detail later.
######
Otharus Posted 21 April 2012 - 07:54 PM
Alewyn, on 21 April 2012 - 06:21 PM, said:
You took the word “parroted” personally and then became abusive. I certainly did not expect that from you.
Yes, I can be oversensitive and when I am, I sometimes overreact.
It's part of a sindream that I am becoming more conscious of, since recently.
Apologies to you and the treat.
######
Alewyn Posted 21 April 2012 - 09:37 PM
Thank you Otharus but, without trying to sound too "mushy", I am as much to be blamed. Please also accept my apologies in return.
######
Otharus Posted 21 April 2012 - 09:47 PM
Accepted!
######
Otharus Posted 23 April 2012 - 12:04 PM
Alewyn, on 21 April 2012 - 06:21 PM, said:
Chapter 1 of the Book of Adela’s followers:
“To withstand this disaster a general assembly was called of all those MEN who were in good standing with the matrons (famna).”
“Therefore I advise you, you should choose upright MEN who will fairly divide the labour and the fruits, so that no-one shall be exempt from work or from the duty of defence.”
“To withstand this disaster a general assembly was called of all those MEN who were in good standing with the matrons (famna).”
“Therefore I advise you, you should choose upright MEN who will fairly divide the labour and the fruits, so that no-one shall be exempt from work or from the duty of defence.”
Fragment 1 ~[001/09]
VMBE THÀT VNLUK TO WÉRANE HÉDE MÀN ÉNE MÉNA ÁCHT BILIDSEN
HWÉR GÁDURATH WÉRON ÁLLERA.MÀNNELIK THÉR ANN.EN GODE HROP STANDE BY THA FÁMNA.
[O+S p.5]
Om dat ongeluk te weeren, had men eene algemeene volksvergadering belegd,
alwaar vergaderd waren alle manspersonen, die in een goeden roep stonden bij de maagden (priesteressen).
To avert this misfortune a general assembly of the people was summoned,
which was attended by all the men who stood in good repute with the Maagden (priestesses).
[Jensma 2006]
... waar iedereen vergaderd was die in een goede roep stond bij de maagden.
=> "everyone" (neutral)
I agree with Jensma's interpretation; ALLERAMANNALIK = everyone, all the people.
Compare:
[006/05]
NW SKOLDE FÀSTA THJU NÉJA FODDIK VPSTÉKA.
ÀND THÁ THÀT DÉN WAS AN ÀJNWARDA FON THÀT FOLK
THÁ HROP FRYA FON HIRA WÁK.STÀRE
SÁ THÀT ALLERAMANNALIK THÀT HÉRA MACHTE.
[Sandbach p.11-13]
Festa was about to light her new lamp,
and when she had done so in the presence of all the people,
Frya called from her watch-star,
so that every one could hear it:
Fragment 2 ~[012/14]
THÉRVMBE RÉD IK JO.
J SKILUN JO RJUCHTFÉRDIGA MANNA KÍASA.
THAM THJU ARBÉD ÀND THA FRÜCHDA NÉI RJUCHTA DÉLA.
SÁ THAT NÀMMAN FRY FON WÁRKA NI FON WÉRA SY.
All existing translations have "rechtvaardige mannen" (upright/ righteous men), but, since:
1. "alleramannalik" (every-one) is neutral,
2. "nàmman" = no-man, no-one (also neutral),
3. and "man" is used in more fragements in the neutral meaning "one" or "human" (dutch: men/ mens),
it is not so sure that "manna" means male men only.
Some examples:
[012/19]
SÁHWERSA THÉR ÀMMAN AMONG JO FVNDEN WÀRTH
=> some-one (dutch: iemand)
[018/06]
THRVCHTHAM HÀT BÉTRE SY. THAT ÉN MAN VNRJUCHT DÉN WRDE THÀN FÉLO
=> one man (neutral)
To illustrate that words that are gender-specific in modern English, were neutral in Oldfrisian, one more example:
[006/01]
THÀT WAS FRYA HIS DÉI
It was Frya’s day
######
Otharus Posted 23 April 2012 - 12:31 PM
Alewyn, on 21 April 2012 - 06:21 PM, said:
Chapter 6 – Laws for the Governance of Burghs
All the Mother’s advisors or councillors were men:
“To the Mother and every Burgh Matron there will be allocated twenty-one burghers; seven elder wise men, seven eldersoldiers and seven elder mariners.”
All the Mother’s advisors or councillors were men:
“To the Mother and every Burgh Matron there will be allocated twenty-one burghers; seven elder wise men, seven eldersoldiers and seven elder mariners.”
But if they were, they were certainly not her only advisors, as you suggest (see below).
First the fragment you quoted, because your first underlined word is your interpretation, which is different from that of Ottema, Sandbach, Jensma and mine. The original does not specify the gender of the "elder wise".
[015/28]
THJU MODER ÀND ALREK BURCH.FÁM. SKL MÀN TOFOGJANDE
ÉN ÀND TVINTICH BURCH.HÉRAN SJVGUN ALDA WISA.
SJVGUN ALDA KÀMPAR ÀND SJVGUN ALDA SÉ.KÀMPAR
[O+S p.25]
Aan de Moeder en aan iedere burgtmaagd zal men toevoegen
eenentwintig burgtheeren, zeven bejaarde wijzen,
zeven bejaarde krijgslieden en zeven oude zeestrijders.
For the service of the mother and of each of the Burgtmaidens there shall be appointed
twenty-one townsmen — seven civilians of mature years,
seven warriors of mature years, and seven seamen of mature years.
That those "burch-héran, alda-wisa, alda-kàmpar and alda-sé-kàmpar" were not the only ones appointed to the Mother is evident, as:
law #2 The folk-Mother (at Texland) and burg-Mothers choose their own Famna
law #3 The folk-Mother chooses her own successor
law #4 The folk-Mother and burg-Mothers can all have 21 Famna and 7 'spille mangérta' (young girls?)
Also, that BURCH.HÉRAN have to be male is questionable, but I will argue this in a seperate post (TO THÉRA BURGUMHÉRA = tot de burchten behoren; belong to the burgs). According to Jensma, 'burghéra' can also be translated as 'burgers' (neutral).
######
Otharus Posted 23 April 2012 - 12:41 PM
Otharus, on 23 April 2012 - 12:31 PM, said:
... different from that of Ottema, Sandbach, Jensma
the 7 'ALDA WISA' were included in the 21 'BURCH-HÉRAN', translated as:
Ottema: burchtheeren
Sandbach: townsmen
Jensma: burchtheren, with footnote that it can also be 'burgers'
Your translation was 'burghers'.
######
Otharus Posted 23 April 2012 - 01:01 PM
Alewyn, on 21 April 2012 - 06:21 PM, said:
Chapter 7
A man was regarded as the head of his household:
“If a man has taken a wife, HE must be given a house and yard”
A man was regarded as the head of his household:
“If a man has taken a wife, HE must be given a house and yard”
[019/19]
HETH HWA EN WIF NIMTH SÁ JÉFT MÀN HJAM HUS ÀND WÀRV
[O+S p.31]
Heeft iemand eene vrouw genomen, dan geeft men hem huis en werf
When a man takes a wife, a house and yard must be given to him
HJAM = them (plural)
Examples:
[002/09] NAVT LONGER WÁKA OVIR HJAM
[004/32] MÀN MOT TÁLA HJAM
[006/26] SPISDE WR.ALDA HJAM MITH SINA ÁDAMA
etcetera.
So a more correct translation would be:
Has someone taken a wife, one gives them house and yard. etc.
This does not mean that the male was regarded as the head of the household.
Again, your interpretation.
Remember general law #1 (your translation):
All Frya’s children are born equal.
Therefore they must have equal rights on land and elsewhere, that is water, and in all that Wralda has given.
######
Otharus Pos
Alewyn, on 21 April 2012 - 06:21 PM, said:
Chapter 8
Some stipulations of how men obtained voting rights. Nothing is said anywhere about women voting or their democratic rights.
“4. After three years as a warrior, he becomes a burgher and may then partake in the election of his headman (officer).
5. After seven years as a voter, he may partake in the election of a commander or king and may be elected himself.”
Some stipulations of how men obtained voting rights. Nothing is said anywhere about women voting or their democratic rights.
“4. After three years as a warrior, he becomes a burgher and may then partake in the election of his headman (officer).
5. After seven years as a voter, he may partake in the election of a commander or king and may be elected himself.”
Even in a matriarchy, I don't think it's strange that warfare was mostly left to men and that these warriors would choose their own leaders.
For completeness, the original fragment, with translations and a correction:
[022/05]
4. IS HI THRÉ JÉR WÉRAR SÁ WÀRTH.I BURCH.HÉR ÀND MÉI HI HÉLPA SIN HÁWED.MANNA TO KJASANE.
5. IS HWA SJVGUN JÉR KJASAR SÁ MÉI HI HÉLPA EN HÉR.MAN JEFHA KÉNING TO KJASANE. THÉR TO ÁK KÉREN WRDE.
[O+S p.35]
4. Is hij drie jaren krijgsman, dan wordt hij burgtheer en mag hij helpen zijn hoofdman te kiezen.
5. Is hij zeven jaren kiezer, dan mag hij helpen een heerman of koning te kiezen en dan zelf ook gekozen worden.
4. After serving as a warrior three years, he may become a citizen, and may have a vote in the election of the headman.
5. When he has been seven years a voter he then may have a vote for the chief or king, and may be himself elected.
A more correct translation of "WÉRAR" is "weerder" (defender).
From (Dutch:) "weren" = to keep out/off/away, to resist, combat (fight back, make a stand)
Compare:
[001/09] VMBE THÀT VNLUK TO WÉRANE = To avert this misfortune
[021/12] SA MOT THENE MÀRK.RJUCHTAR HIM WÉRA = the market-keeper shall keep him out
#######
Otharus
Alewyn, on 21 April 2012 - 06:21 PM, said:
Chapter 9 - The rights of Mothers and Kings.
Herewith just an extract. Please read the whole chapter again.
“1. If war breaks out, the Mother sends her messengers to the King;
the King sends messengers to the Counts to defend the country.
2. The Counts call all the citizens together and decide how many men shall be sent.
3. All the resolutions must immediately be sent to the Mother by messengers and witnesses.”
Herewith just an extract. Please read the whole chapter again.
“1. If war breaks out, the Mother sends her messengers to the King;
the King sends messengers to the Counts to defend the country.
2. The Counts call all the citizens together and decide how many men shall be sent.
3. All the resolutions must immediately be sent to the Mother by messengers and witnesses.”
[023/09]
1. SAHWERSA ORLOCH KVMTH. SEND THA MODER HJRA BODON NÉI THA KÉNING.
THI KÉNING SEND BODON NÉI THA GRÉVET.MANNA VMBE LANDWÉR.
2. THA GRÉVETMANNA HROPATH ALLE BURCH.HÉRA ET SÉMNE ÀND BIRÉDATH HO FÉLO MANNA HJA SKILUN STJURA.
3. ALLE BISLUTA THÉRA MOTON RING NÉI THÉRE MODER SENDEN WERTHA MITH BODON ÀND TJUGUM.
[O+S p.35]
1. Zoo wanneer er oorlog komt, zende de Moeder hare boden naar den koning,
de koning zende boden naar de grevetmannen om de landweer.
2. De grevetmannen roepen alle burgtheeren te zamen en bespreken hoe vele mannen zij zullen zenden.
3. Alle besluiten van dezen moeten dadelijk naar de Moeder gezonden worden, met boden en getuigen.
1. If war breaks out, the mother sends her messengers to the king,
who sends messengers to the Grevetmen to call the citizens to arms.
2. The Grevetmen call all the citizens together and decide how many men shall be sent.
3. All the resolutions must immediately be sent to the mother by messengers and witnesses.
Again, this are regulations about defence, in case of war.
Note that KÉNING (king) means warlord (army leader) here.
I don't see how this is an argument against matriarchy.
#######
Otharus
Alewyn, on 21 April 2012 - 06:21 PM, said:
Chapter 9 - The rights of Mothers and Kings.
As stated before, the Mother had the power of Veto but it seems fairly certain that she had to listen to the advise of her MALE councillors:
“4. The Mother lets all resolutions be gathered and gives an average number,
that is, the middle number of all resolutions together,
which the people as well as the King should be satisfied with for the time being.”
As stated before, the Mother had the power of Veto but it seems fairly certain that she had to listen to the advise of her MALE councillors:
“4. The Mother lets all resolutions be gathered and gives an average number,
that is, the middle number of all resolutions together,
which the people as well as the King should be satisfied with for the time being.”
[023/22]
4. THJU MODER LÉTH ALLE BISLUTA GADERJA ÀND JÉFH.ET GULDNETAL.
THAT IS THÀT MIDDELTAL FON ALLE BISLUTA ETSÉMNE.
HÉRMITHA MOT MÀN FAR THÀT FORMA FRÉTO HA ÀND THENE KÉNING ALSA.
[O+S p.37]
4 De Moeder laat alle besluiten verzamelen en geeft het guldengetal,
dat is het middengetal van alle besluiten te zamen.
Hiermede moet men vooreerst vrede hebben, en de koning eveneens.
4. The mother considers all the resolutions and decides upon them,
and with this the king as well as the people must be satisfied.
A more literal English translation:
The Mother has all decisions gathered and gives the 'golden measure',
that is the average (middle number) of all decisions together.
Herewith one must have peace in principle (for that moment?), and also the king.
Again, this is a war-law, so it makes sense the advise about the war will mostly have come from males.
She has the final say, even in war matters.
This is more an argument in favor - than against matriarchy.
######
Otharus
Alewyn, on 21 April 2012 - 06:21 PM, said:
Chapter 9 - The rights of Mothers and Kings.
I have also stated previously that one of the Folk Mother and the Burgh Matrons’ primary functions was to guard over the morals of the nation:
“5. If the armed forces are on campaign, the King only have to consult with his headmen (officers),
though there must always be three burghers without voice (observers) from the Mother sitting in front.
These burghers must send daily messengers to the Mother so that she would know if anything is done
contrary to the counsels of Frya.”
I have also stated previously that one of the Folk Mother and the Burgh Matrons’ primary functions was to guard over the morals of the nation:
“5. If the armed forces are on campaign, the King only have to consult with his headmen (officers),
though there must always be three burghers without voice (observers) from the Mother sitting in front.
These burghers must send daily messengers to the Mother so that she would know if anything is done
contrary to the counsels of Frya.”
[023/28]
5. IS THJU WÉRA A KÀMP. THÀN HOFT THI KÉNING ALLÉNA MITH SINUM HAVEDMANNA TO RÉDA.
THACH THÉR MOTON ÀMMERTHE THRÉ BURCH-HÉRA FON THERE MODER FÔR.ANA SITTA SVNDER STEM.
THISSA BURCH.HÉRA MOTON DÉJALIKIS BODON NÉI THÉRE MODER SENDA TILTHJU HJU WÉTA MÜGE JEF THÉR AWET DÉN WÀRTH.
STRIDANDE WITH.A ÉWA JEFTHA WITH FRYA.S RÉDJEVINGA.
[O+S p.37]
5. Is het leger te velde, dan behoeft de koning slechts met zijne hoofdmannen te raadplegen,
doch daarbij moeten altijd de drie burgtheeren der Moeder vooraan zitten zonder stem.
Deze burgtheeren moeten dagelijks boden naar de Moeder zenden, opdat zij weten moge of er iets gedaan wordt,
strijdende met Fryas raadgeving.
5. When in the field, the king consults only his superior officers,
but three citizens of the mother must be present, without any voice.
These citizens must send daily reports to the mother, that they may be sure nothing is done
contrary to the counsels of Frya.
Your translation is more accurate than that by Sandbach, but both Ottema and Sandbach missed something in the 4th line:
"... if anything is done
in conflict with the laws (ÉWA) or with Frya's counsels."
Anyway, this fragment does not support your claim, that the Mothers' or Matrons' "primary functions was to guard over the morals of the nation".
######
Otharus
Alewyn, on 21 April 2012 - 06:21 PM, said:
Chapter 11 Minno’s Writings
Rules made by Minno (a male).
Rules made by Minno (a male).
[029/13]
NETLIKA SÉKA UT.A NÉILÉTNE SKRIFTUM MINNO.S.
MINNO WAS EN ALDE SÉKÉNING. SIANER ÀND WIS.GÍRICH.
AN THA KRÉTAR HETH.I ÉWA JÉVEN.
[O+S p.43]
Nuttige zaken uit de nagelaten schriften van Minno.
Minno was een oude zeekoning, een ziener en wijsgeer;
hij heeft aan de Kretensen wetten gegeven.
Useful Extracts from the Writings left by Minno.
Minno was an ancient sea-king. He was a seer and a philosopher,
and he gave laws to the Cretans.
So he gave laws to the KRÉTAR and some of his writings were considered useful in his motherland.
How is this an argument against the Fryan civilisation being mainly matriarchal (governed by 'Mothers')?
######
Otharus
Alewyn, on 21 April 2012 - 06:21 PM, said:
Chapter 14 From Minno’s writings:
(Hellenia speaking)
“That is also our desire, and therefore our people choose their
LEADERS, COUNTS, COUNCILLORS, CHIEFS, AND MASTERS FROM THE WISEST OF THE GOOD MEN,
in order that every man shall do his best to become wise and good.”
(Hellenia speaking)
“That is also our desire, and therefore our people choose their
LEADERS, COUNTS, COUNCILLORS, CHIEFS, AND MASTERS FROM THE WISEST OF THE GOOD MEN,
in order that every man shall do his best to become wise and good.”
[036/18]
THÀT IS ÁK VSA WILLE THÉRVMBE KJASTH VS FOLK SIN
FORSTA. GRÉVA. RÉDJÉVAR ÀND ALLE BÁSA ÀND MÁSTERA UT.A WISESTA THÉRA GODA MÀNNISKA
TILTHJU ALLEMÀNNALIK SIN BEST SKIL DVA VMBE WIS ÀND GOD TO WERTHANDE
As you can see your underlined "men" and "man" were originally:
"mànniska" = people (dutch: mensen)
"alleramànnalik" = everyone (dutch: alleman, iedereen)
######
Otharus
Alewyn, on 21 April 2012 - 06:21 PM, said:
Chapter 24 – Tunis and Inka
“With all this treasure Tunis sailed into the Flymar.
THE COUNT from West Flyland was so impressed with all these goods
that HE arranged that Tunis be allowed to have a warehouse at the mouth of the Flymar.”
“With all this treasure Tunis sailed into the Flymar.
THE COUNT from West Flyland was so impressed with all these goods
that HE arranged that Tunis be allowed to have a warehouse at the mouth of the Flymar.”
[059/26]
MITH AL THI SKÀT FÍL TÜNIS THÀT FLÍ-MAR BINNA.
THI GRÉVA.MAN FON WEST.FLÍ.LAND. WÀRTH THRVCH AL THESSA THINGA BIGÁSTERET.
HI WROCHTE THAT TÜNIS BI THÉRE MVDE FON.T.FLÍ.MAR EN LOGE BVWA MACHTE.
I have no objection to your translation, but I don't get your point.
Is your understanding of a matriarchy that men have no responsibilities at all?
######
Otharus
Alewyn, on 21 April 2012 - 06:21 PM, said:
Sometimes the Mother’s advice was simply ignored:
“The Mother advised that they should sell anything except iron weapons
but nobody paid attention to her.” (ca 2000 BC)
“The Mother advised that they should sell anything except iron weapons
but nobody paid attention to her.” (ca 2000 BC)
THJU MODER RÉDE THAT WI RA ELLA VRKÁPJA SKOLDE. BUTA ÍSERE WÉPNE.
MEN MÀN NE MELDE HJA NAVT
[O+S p.85]
De Moeder raadde dat wij hun alles zouden verkoopen behalve ijzeren wapenen,
maar men sloeg geen acht op haar.
The mother advised that they should sell everything except iron weapons,
but no attention was paid to what she said.
The translation of MELDA was done through the context and is probably right.
But I don't get your point.
In a patriarchy it's also possible that something that the emperor, king or pope (etc.) says or advises is ignored.
In this case it is clear that it was a mistake to ignore the Mother's advise.
######
Otharus Posted 23 April 2012 - 03:47 PM
Abramelin, on 23 April 2012 - 03:33 PM, said:
LOL.
Well, women 'rule' anyway, whatever guys may think otherwise....
Well, women 'rule' anyway, whatever guys may think otherwise....
######
Otharus
Posted 23 April 2012 - 04:00 PM
Alewyn, on 21 April 2012 - 06:21 PM, said:
Chapter 31 – Murder of Frana
“But the Denemarkar had no ears,
they never understood that they could lose their morals
and therefore they paid no attention to her.”
“But the Denemarkar had no ears,
they never understood that they could lose their morals
and therefore they paid no attention to her.”
MEN THA DÉNEMARKAR NÉDE NARNE ÁRA NEI.
HJA NILDE NAVT BIGRIPPA THÀT HJARA SÉDE VRBRÚDE KOSTE
THÉRVMBE NE MELDON HJA HJA NAVT
Yes, they ignored the Mother, which led to hunger, poverty, misery.
This part is called:
"HO VSA DÉNA MARKA FÁRA VS VLÉREN GVNGON"
=> How we lost our Déna-marka.
It was the end of Fryan matriarchy in the Denmarks.
######
Otharus Posted 23 April 2012 - 04:15 PM
Alewyn, on 21 April 2012 - 06:21 PM, said:
Note the following deliberation by the general council (male); The mother’s advice was sought; not her ruling:
“In the northernmost corner of the Middle Sea there lies an island at the coast.
They now came and asked to buy it.
A general council meeting was called.
The mother’s advice was sought, …”
“In the northernmost corner of the Middle Sea there lies an island at the coast.
They now came and asked to buy it.
A general council meeting was called.
The mother’s advice was sought, …”
INNER NORTHLIKSTE HERNE FON THA MIDDEL-SÉ. THÉR LÉID EN É.LAND BY THÉRE KÁD.
NW KÉMON HJA THÀT A KÁP TO FRÉJANDE.
THÉRVR WÀRTH ENE MÉNA ACHT BILÉID.
MODER-IS RÉD WÀRTH WNNEN.
It doesn't say the members of the general counsil (MÉNA ACHT) were male!
That is merely your assumption.
######
Otharus Posted 23 April 2012 - 05:49 PM
Alewyn, on 21 April 2012 - 06:21 PM, said:
In my book I spoke about a Fryan “Federation” of states (Possibly not much more than City States as per the later Greek Model). Each was ruled by a Count but they still fell under the moral guidance of the Folk Mother. It is also very telling that she is often referred to as the “Honorary” Mother in the OLB.
As was shown earlier, her "guidance" was not only "moral".
######
Otharus Posted 23 April 2012 - 06:05 PM
Alewyn, on 21 April 2012 - 06:21 PM, said:
The Writings of Adelbrost and Appolonia, Chapter 1
(In trying to elect a new Folk Mother after the Murder of Frana some 30 years before)
“Each state was in favour of its own matron and nobody would yield. Therefore none was chosen, and the realm became disordered.”
And
“Every RULER imagined that HE did enough if HE looked after HIS own state, and no one would cooperate with the others.”
“With the Burgh Matrons it was even worse. Everyone relied on her own wisdom, and whenever the Counts did anything without her, she would create distrust between them and their people.”
So you see, the counts could and did rule without the Burgh Matrons (Famna, or whatever you want to call them) by simply ignoring them.
(In trying to elect a new Folk Mother after the Murder of Frana some 30 years before)
“Each state was in favour of its own matron and nobody would yield. Therefore none was chosen, and the realm became disordered.”
And
“Every RULER imagined that HE did enough if HE looked after HIS own state, and no one would cooperate with the others.”
“With the Burgh Matrons it was even worse. Everyone relied on her own wisdom, and whenever the Counts did anything without her, she would create distrust between them and their people.”
So you see, the counts could and did rule without the Burgh Matrons (Famna, or whatever you want to call them) by simply ignoring them.
(Therefore not representative for the normal order.)
The 'federation' was about to fall apart.
That's why they started collecting the texts and made the "Book of Adela Followers", now known as OLB.
BTW, the original of your "RULER" is "FORST" (dutch: vorst, litarlly voorste: the one in front, or the first).
######
Posted 23 April 2012 - 11:25 PM
Alewyn, on 21 April 2012 - 06:21 PM, said:
I can go on and on but I am certain that you get my drift:
The Mother and Matrons were, to a large extent, figure heads with more ceremonial functions than executive powers.
Only the Mother had the power of Veto and then mostly on matters concerning morals and religion – almost like a theocracy.
The Mother and Matrons were, to a large extent, figure heads with more ceremonial functions than executive powers.
Only the Mother had the power of Veto and then mostly on matters concerning morals and religion – almost like a theocracy.
Old Testament:
1. Man (male) is created in the image of God, woman out of his rib.
2. Woman was the primal sinner, disobeying God, responsible for man being cast out of paradise.
3. In the later translations "Jaweh" is translated as "the Lord, God" (Dutch: "de Here, God"), stressing his masculinity.
New Testament:
3. Mother Mary's virginity is stressed (or else she would not deserve respect).
4. Mary of Magdala was a prostitute (I understand there is debates about that).
In other words, women played a marginal and often negative role.
To me, much of it actually sounds like anti-women propaganda.
In Medieval Europe, the church has fought wars against women.
Many supposed 'witches' have been tortured and murdered.
Anyway, I don't want to go too much off-topic, but one can wonder why this was such a big issue in the early days of (North-European) Christianity.
I'll just give a few quotes and thoughts as a reply.
(I'll not repeat the ones that were already discussed)
[001/01]
THET BOK THÉRA A.DEL.A.FOLSTAR
The book of Adela-followers (followers of a woman)
The 'proto-Frisians' saw themselves as children of Frya (a woman), the other peoples as children of Lyda, and Finda (both women). Later branches of the 'Frya-root' were Kàlta-followers and Gért-men (both named after their 'mother').
[014/10]
ALLE SETMA THÉR EN ÉW. THÀT IS HVNDRED JÉR OMHLÁPA MÜGE MITH THA KRODAR ÀND SIN JOL.
THÉRA MÜGON VPPA RÉD THÉRE MODER ÀND BY MÉNA WILLA VPPA WÉGAR THÉRA BURGUM WRIT HWERTHA
=> Mothers could suggest new laws.
[017/29]
BY ALLE SÉKUM MOT THA MODER WALDA ÀND NJVDA THÀT HJRA BÀRN. THÀT IS FRYAS FOLK.
SÁ MÉT.RIK BILÍWA AS THÀT WÉSA MÉI. THÀT IS THI GRÁTESTA HJRAR PLICHTA
=> It was the highest responsibility of the Mother to devide wealth evenly over all the people!!!
(this fragment is usually mistranslated, I'll make a seperate post about it)
The Mother was considered (supposed) to be the most wise of all the people (inspired by the symbolic 'Foddik'; eternal light).
[056/27]
THA TÜNIS MITH SINUM SKÉPUM TO HONK KÉRA WILDE GVNG.I. THET FORMA VPPA DÉNNE MARKA OF.
MEN HI NE MACHT THÉR NAVT NE LANDA. THÀT HÉDE THJU MODER BISJOWATH.
=> Tunis was not allowed to enter Denmark, a decision from the Mother.
[058/09]
THÀT THA HIENDE ÀND FÉRE KRÉKALANDA FAR THÀT WELD THÉRE MODER VRLÉREN WAS
=> the near and far Krékalands were lost to the power of the Mother (Sandbach: 'superintendence').
Appearantly, the position of Mother was so important, that a war was fought over it (Minerva vs. Sírhéd/ Kàlta).
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