Posted 12 April 2013 - 03:31 PM
NO-ID-EA, on 12 April 2013 - 11:49 AM, said:
[...] conversations about whether the Tresoar copy is the original 13th C copy or not
I don't remember a discussion about that.
Personally, I don't have any reason to believe that the Tresoar copy is NOT the original 13th C. copy.
Quote
and also on the page numbering , as it seems page 4 , is not the reverse side of page 3 etc
Page 3 was photographed with other pages under it, so one has to look close to see that it is actually the reverse side of page 4.
Quote
it has always seemed lucky/weird , that in the Okke min sunne letter , that the writing on both sides of the page starts under the torn part of the page , as if it was originally written on a damaged leaf ??
Interesting observation. Yes, that makes sense.
### Posted 12 April 2013 - 09:19 PM
NO-ID-EA, on 12 April 2013 - 05:29 PM, said:
it only looks different because of the sheet underneath.................do you think the same is true though of page 100-27 and 100-28 which looks to me as though 100-41 and 100-42 look better matches . ??
Very well observed.Yes, I think it has indeed to do with what sheet lies underneeth.
Very well observed.Yes, I think it has indeed to do with what sheet lies underneeth.
Quote
if you go to tresour pagina 196 ... the copy of the book looks like the paper is much whiter , and it may be an optical illusion , but the pages also look narrower and longer than on the next page .....what do you think.
The perspective creates that illusion.
Posted 12 April 2013 - 09:25 PM
gestur, on 12 April 2013 - 09:19 PM, said:
Yes, I think it has indeed to do with what sheet lies underneeth.
The two sheets (4 pages) may actually be connected together, as being part of the same section or gathering. (bookbinding term)
### Posted 13 April 2013 - 08:11 AM
NO-ID-EA, on 13 April 2013 - 12:03 AM, said:
what do you mean by, its something to do with the binding , please explain further
That the sheets are connected like this:
_______________________
|128 . . . | . . . 141|
| . . . . .|. . . . . |
|. . . . . | . . . . .|
Other side:
_______________________
|142 . . . | . . . 127|
| . . . . .|. . . . . |
|. . . . . | . . . . .|
This is what I meant, but now I get doubts. They would not have folded the sheet in the wrong direction, just to make the photo.
### Post about SKAM, SKADA, SKANDA etc. seperately blogged on Fryskednis
Interesting. Does it say more, like when this was and what their names were?
###Posted 15 April 2013 - 06:43 AM
NO-ID-EA, on 14 April 2013 - 09:36 PM, said:
they were the:- king of Norwaeze ( Norweie ) Desemone King (Dene Marche )King of Rusie ( Russie ) King of Gutlonde ( Scotlond ) King of Frise ( Frisye )
Interesting. Does it say more, like when this was and what their names were?
### Posted 15 April 2013 - 08:33 AM
Left - Right
It is remarkable that there are so many different words for left and right in Europe, while it must be an old concept.
Note that from the Oldfrisian words WINSTER and FÉR, only varieties of WINSTER has survived in the Scandinavian languages.
Also note the spelling variety FÉRE - FÉRRE.
right, dexter - english
recht (-s, -er) - dutch
recht (-s, -e) - german
højre - danish
höger - swedish
høyre - norwegian
hægri - icelandic
droit - french
destra - italian
derecho - spanish
direito - portuguese
left - english
link (-s, -er) - dutch
link (-s, -e) - german
venstre - danish, norwegian
vänster - swedish
vinstri - icelandic
vänster - swedish
vinstri - icelandic
gauche - french
sinistra - italian
izquierda - spanish
esquerd (-a, -o) - portuguese
Oldfrisian dictionary Hettema 1832:
ferre, ferrehond = right hand (ferre also means far, and so does FÉR in OLB)
winstere - left
[034/24]
HWÉRTO THJANATH THENE HVND AN THINA FÉRA HAND
[O-S p.51]
waartoe dient de hond aan uwe rechter hand
what is the use of [whereto serves] the dog on your right hand?
[107/07]
ANTHA FÉRE SÍDE THÉRA FINTH MÀN THJU FORM.LÉRE.
ANNA WINSTERE SÍDE THA ÉWA
ANNA WINSTERE SÍDE THA ÉWA
[O-S p.147]
Aan de rechterzijde van deze vindt men de formleer;
aan de linkerzijde de wetten.
On the right side of this are [:one finds] the formulae,
and on theother [left] side the laws
and on the
[168/07]
SÁ SKINTH SVNNE ÀJEN THINE WINSTERE SÍDE
LIK SE OWERS ÀJEN THINE FÉRRE SÍDE DVAT.
LIK SE OWERS ÀJEN THINE FÉRRE SÍDE DVAT.
[O-S p.227]
zoo schijnt de zon tegen uwe linkerzijde,
gelijk zij anders aan uwe rechterzijde doet
the sun shines on your left side
as it doesin other countries [elsewhere] on the right side
as it does
### Post about horse, rider and manes see seperate post on Fryskednis
### Posted 18 April 2013 - 05:06 PM
Wirth (German, 1933): "und ihr Schwert gleich lang" Jensma (Dutch, 2006): "en haar zwaard evenveel"
All translations assume - from the context - that GÉRT means sword.
Everywhere else in OLB, GÉRT means desire (Dutch: begeerte).
It is used in the combination MANGÉRTE = girl or young woman, as a name (the daughter of PIRE) and her followers, theGÉRTMANNA.
In the fragment, I don't think it meant sword, but something like a staff or long rod.
Hettema Oldfrisian dictionary (1832): Gerd, geerd = roede (rod) Etymologiebank: garde = rod, stick Gtb: garde, gaarde, gerde = rod
"Guard" may very well be related.
etymonline.com/guard
Does anyone know what word was used in the (most) original text?
Not true.
Ont- can mean aan-.
Example: ontsteken = (a.o.) aansteken
gtb.inl.nl/ontsteken
A literal translation for aanvang would be catch-on.
Although the words ANFANG and BIJIN virtually mean the same, there is a subtle difference.
ANFANG suggests an initial act by someone or something, in this case WRALDA.
BIJIN is a more passive beginning.
Sandbach's translation of these words is fine.
Origin also has a very similar meaning to beginning.
All that is based on assumptions.
Even if some people named a goddess so, what did her name mean?
The origin of the word may very well be explained by the OLB, as so many other words and names.
- - - -Anyway, my point was and is that the word BEGIJNEN / BEGINEN (which has no clear etymology yet) may have come from an old WRALDA-cult, named after T.BIJIN.
One can easily turn that around: in the bible traces can be found of older traditions.
For who has any imagination, it does.
From creation myth:
"Wralda, that/who alone is perfect and eternal, made the ANFANG. After that came TID (time)."
So ANFANG is older than time.
Beginning (BIJIN) may be a more profane word.
Knul made a good point: to use two words with a similar meaning, one can make the concept stronger ("very beginning").
WR.ALDA (the very oldest) = GOD (good or perfect) + ÉVG (eternal or forever)
God = WR.ALDA = T.ANFANG (the origin or beginning) = T.BIJIN = the utter start
### Posted 28 April 2013 - 11:12 PM
### Posted 18 April 2013 - 05:06 PM
gestur, on 17 April 2013 - 04:54 PM, said:
[095/10]
SJUGUN JRTH.FÉT WÉRE HJU LONG
ÀND HJRA GÉRT SÁ FÉLO.
THRÍJA SWIKTE HJA THAM OR HJRA HOLE
ÀND AS ER DEL KÉM
WÉR EN RIDDER GÀRS.FALLICH.
[O-S p.133]
zeven aardvoet was zij lang,
en haar zwaard even zoo lang,
dit zwaaide zij driemaal over haar hoofd
en toen het nederkwam
beet een ridder in het gras [werd een ruiter 'grasvallig'].
She was seven feet high [long; tall],
and her sword was the same length.
She waved it three times over her head,
andeach time [as is came down]
a knight bit the earth [a rider were 'grasfalling'].
SJUGUN JRTH.FÉT WÉRE HJU LONG
ÀND HJRA GÉRT SÁ FÉLO.
THRÍJA SWIKTE HJA THAM OR HJRA HOLE
ÀND AS ER DEL KÉM
WÉR EN RIDDER GÀRS.FALLICH.
[O-S p.133]
zeven aardvoet was zij lang,
en haar zwaard even zoo lang,
dit zwaaide zij driemaal over haar hoofd
en toen het nederkwam
beet een ridder in het gras [werd een ruiter 'grasvallig'].
She was seven feet high [long; tall],
and her sword was the same length.
She waved it three times over her head,
and
a knight bit the earth [a rider were 'grasfalling'].
Wirth (German, 1933): "und ihr Schwert gleich lang" Jensma (Dutch, 2006): "en haar zwaard evenveel"
All translations assume - from the context - that GÉRT means sword.
Everywhere else in OLB, GÉRT means desire (Dutch: begeerte).
It is used in the combination MANGÉRTE = girl or young woman, as a name (the daughter of PIRE) and her followers, theGÉRTMANNA.
In the fragment, I don't think it meant sword, but something like a staff or long rod.
Hettema Oldfrisian dictionary (1832): Gerd, geerd = roede (rod) Etymologiebank: garde = rod, stick Gtb: garde, gaarde, gerde = rod
"Guard" may very well be related.
etymonline.com/guard
### Posted 19 April 2013 - 11:06 AM
wikipedia/Beguines_and_Beghards
beguine - english
begijn - dutch
begine - german, frisian
begien - limburgian
béguine - french
begínur - icelandic
beginer - swedish, norwegian
beguinas - spanish, portuguese
beghine - italian
... etcetera
The etymology of this word is not clear.
etymologiebank/begijn
I suggest that, like Tanfana may have come from T.ANFANG (origin), Begine may have its origin in T.BIJIN (the beginning).
They may have been named after a lost 'religious' group, because they were in a way a continuation of it.
No evidence, just suggesting the possibility.
OLB p. 45
... THI TÉKNA FON THAT JOL.
THAT IS THAT FORMA SINNE BILD WR.ALDA.S.
AK FON T.ANFANG JEFTHA T.BIJIN
WÉRUT TID KÉM
Ottema p.65
... de teekens van het Juul,
dat is het eerste zinnebeeld van Wralda,
ook van den aanvang of het begin,
waaruit de Tijd is voortgekomen
Sandbach p.65
... the signs of the Juul
—that is, the first symbol of Wr-alda,
also of the origin or beginning
from which Time is derived
Wirth p.44
die Zeichen des Juls.
Das ist das älteste Sinnbild Wraldas,
auch von dem Anfang oder dem Beginne,
woraus die Zeit kam
beguine - english
begijn - dutch
begine - german, frisian
begien - limburgian
béguine - french
begínur - icelandic
beginer - swedish, norwegian
beguinas - spanish, portuguese
beghine - italian
... etcetera
The etymology of this word is not clear.
Quote
Het woord verschijnt vrijwel tegelijkertijd in Latijnse teksten: beggini ‘ketters’ [1200-25; Gijsseling 1985] en begginas, alsschimpnaam voor religieuze vrouwen in een klooster in Waals-Brabant. De etymologie van het woord is omstreden.
I suggest that, like Tanfana may have come from T.ANFANG (origin), Begine may have its origin in T.BIJIN (the beginning).
They may have been named after a lost 'religious' group, because they were in a way a continuation of it.
No evidence, just suggesting the possibility.
OLB p. 45
... THI TÉKNA FON THAT JOL.
THAT IS THAT FORMA SINNE BILD WR.ALDA.S.
AK FON T.ANFANG JEFTHA T.BIJIN
WÉRUT TID KÉM
Ottema p.65
... de teekens van het Juul,
dat is het eerste zinnebeeld van Wralda,
ook van den aanvang of het begin,
waaruit de Tijd is voortgekomen
Sandbach p.65
... the signs of the Juul
—that is, the first symbol of Wr-alda,
also of the origin or beginning
from which Time is derived
Wirth p.44
die Zeichen des Juls.
Das ist das älteste Sinnbild Wraldas,
auch von dem Anfang oder dem Beginne,
woraus die Zeit kam
### Posted 20 April 2013 - 08:21 AM
NO-ID-EA, on 19 April 2013 - 05:27 PM, said:
Aristophon in the " Archonship of Euclides " ( 403 BC) talks of one of the laws made was that anyone who was born where both parents are not Citizens is considered a bast.ard.
Does anyone know what word was used in the (most) original text?
### Posted 20 April 2013 - 08:35 AM
Abramelin, on 20 April 2013 - 05:55 AM, said:
In short (and that is also true in Frisian) : ONT=/= AAN/ON
Not true.
Ont- can mean aan-.
Example: ontsteken = (a.o.) aansteken
gtb.inl.nl/ontsteken
A literal translation for aanvang would be catch-on.
Although the words ANFANG and BIJIN virtually mean the same, there is a subtle difference.
ANFANG suggests an initial act by someone or something, in this case WRALDA.
BIJIN is a more passive beginning.
### Posted 20 April 2013 - 08:47 AM
Abramelin, on 19 April 2013 - 10:43 PM, said:
Sandbach's translation of "T.Anfang" is wrong: it doesn't mean 'origin', it's just another word for 'the beginning'.
Sandbach's translation of these words is fine.
Origin also has a very similar meaning to beginning.
Quote
Tanfana or Tamfana was a goddess [...]
All that is based on assumptions.
Even if some people named a goddess so, what did her name mean?
The origin of the word may very well be explained by the OLB, as so many other words and names.
- - - -Anyway, my point was and is that the word BEGIJNEN / BEGINEN (which has no clear etymology yet) may have come from an old WRALDA-cult, named after T.BIJIN.
### Posted 20 April 2013 - 09:01 AM
Abramelin, on 20 April 2013 - 08:56 AM, said:
The OLB has more of these subtle (and sometimes not so subtle) hints to the Bible.
One can easily turn that around: in the bible traces can be found of older traditions.
### Posted 20 April 2013 - 03:26 PM
Abramelin, on 20 April 2013 - 01:22 PM, said:
So the words they used, WR-ALDA T-ANFANG T-BIJIN do indeed make no sense.
For who has any imagination, it does.
From creation myth:
"Wralda, that/who alone is perfect and eternal, made the ANFANG. After that came TID (time)."
So ANFANG is older than time.
Beginning (BIJIN) may be a more profane word.
Knul made a good point: to use two words with a similar meaning, one can make the concept stronger ("very beginning").
Posted 20 April 2013 - 06:32 PM
"Im Anfang war das Wort" - Luther, Joh.1:1
(at the anfang was the word)
What word?
ANFANG
It was the first Wralda made, according to the creation myth.
For a Fryasborn, it would therefore be a sacred word, more than BIJIN.
(at the anfang was the word)
What word?
ANFANG
It was the first Wralda made, according to the creation myth.
For a Fryasborn, it would therefore be a sacred word, more than BIJIN.
Posted 21 April 2013 - 09:06 AM
Abramelin, on 20 April 2013 - 06:52 PM, said:
... the Word was God.
WR.ALDA (the very oldest) = GOD (good or perfect) + ÉVG (eternal or forever)
God = WR.ALDA = T.ANFANG (the origin or beginning) = T.BIJIN = the utter start
### Posted 24 April 2013 - 10:57 AM
Outsmarting oldschool Dutch etymology (again)
Source: M. Philippa e.a. (2003-2009) Etymologisch Woordenboek van het Nederlands
http://etymologieban...fwoord/hommeles
Also see here: http://gtb.inl.nl/iW...modern=hommeles
Oldfrisian dictionaries:
Wiarda (1786)
Homelia: brechen, zerbrechen, zerstören
Homelenga, hamelinghe, hemelinge: das abschneiden, die verschneidung, verstümmlung
Hettema (1832)
Homelia, hommelje: afbreken, vernielen
Homelinge, hommeling: vernieling
Richthofen (1848)
Homelia: verstümmeln
Homelenge: verstümmlung
-
Varieties of the word in the Oera Linda Book
verb:
HOMMELJA - to destroy [3]
(all) WÀRTH HOMLJATH - is destroyed [2]
(they) WRDE HOMLJAT - are destroyed [1]
(it) HETH VRHOMELT - has destroyed [5]
(they) SEND VRHOMLATH - have been destroyed [4]
adjective:
VRHOMELDE (BURCH) - destroyed (burgh) [6]
expressive combinations:
HOMLJATH ÀND VRDÀREN [2]
HOMMELJA AND MORTHJA [3]
VRHOMLATH ÀND VRDILIGAD [4]
1 [025/15]
THÉR WRDE HUSA HOMLJAT JEFTHA SKÉPA
[O-S p.39]
daar worden huizen vernield [:gemold] of schepen
either ships or houses are destroyed
2 [033/11]
INLANDISKA ORLOCH. HWÉRTHRVCH ELLA
HOMLJATH ÀND VRDÀREN WÀRTH
[O-S p.49]
binnenlandsche oorlog, waardoor alles
in de war gebragt en in ’t verderf gestort wordt
civil wars, and everything [:wherethrough all]
is thrown into confusion and destroyed
3 [073/28]
SÉKROPS THAM NAVT NE HILDE NI
FON MORTHJA NOR FON HOMMELJA
[O-S p.103]
Cecrops die niet hield
van moorden noch van verwoesten [: hommelen, mollen]
Cecrops, who had no inclination towards
murder or devastation
[:who didn't like to kill or destroy]
4 [161/26]
ALLE BURGUM THÉR THRVCH ÀRGE TÍD
VRHOMLATH SEND ÀND VRDILIGAD
[O-S p.219]
alle burgten die door de booze [:erge] tijd
verstoord [:verhommeld] en verdelgd zijn
all the citadels that have been
disturbed and destroyed in the bad time
5 [199/17]
TROJE ALSA HETH.ÉNE STÉDE HÉTEN
THÉR ET FOLK FON THA FÉRE KRÉKA.LANDA
INNOMTH ÀND VRHOMELT HETH
[O-S p.239]
Troja alzoo heeft eene stad geheeten,
die het volk van de verre Krekalanden (Griekenland)
heeft ingenomen en verwoest [:verhommeld].
Troy is the name of a town
that the far Krekalanders (Greeks)
had taken and destroyed.
6 [202/15]
TWISK THA BVW.FALA THÉRE VRHOMELDE BURCH STÁVJA
WAS JETA ÉNE SNODE BURCH.FÁM
MITH SVME FÁMNE SÉTEN
[O-S p.243]
Tusschen de bouwvallen van de verwoeste [:verhommelde] burgt Stavia
was nog een schrandere [:snode] Burgtmaagd [:Burgfaam]
met eenige Maagden [:Famen] gevestigd [:gezeten].
Among the ruins of the destroyed citadel of Stavia
there was still established [:seated] a clever Burgtmaagd [:Burghfam],
with a few maidens [:some Fams].
-
HOMELJA -> HMOLJA -> MOLJA -> mollen (to destroy)
Source: M. Philippa e.a. (2003-2009) Etymologisch Woordenboek van het Nederlands
http://etymologieban...refwoord/mollen
Also see: http://gtb.inl.nl/iW...=WNT&id=M039962
Quote
hommeles zn. (NN) ‘ruzie’
Vnnl. in Hoe ist er, hommeles? [1653; WNT], het sal daar lustig hommelis sijn [1681; WNT]. Ook nu nog meestal in onpersoonlijke constructies: er is hommeles, 't is hommeles, en soms naar analogie van ruzie ook ze hebben hommeles.
Herkomst onzeker. Wrsch. afgeleid van een werkwoord hommelen ‘zoeken, gonzen’ [1599; Kil.], dat ook ‘razen, tieren’ kon betekenen: nu zal 't er duivels homlen [1761; WNT hommelen]
Vnnl. in Hoe ist er, hommeles? [1653; WNT], het sal daar lustig hommelis sijn [1681; WNT]. Ook nu nog meestal in onpersoonlijke constructies: er is hommeles, 't is hommeles, en soms naar analogie van ruzie ook ze hebben hommeles.
Herkomst onzeker. Wrsch. afgeleid van een werkwoord hommelen ‘zoeken, gonzen’ [1599; Kil.], dat ook ‘razen, tieren’ kon betekenen: nu zal 't er duivels homlen [1761; WNT hommelen]
http://etymologieban...fwoord/hommeles
Also see here: http://gtb.inl.nl/iW...modern=hommeles
Oldfrisian dictionaries:
Wiarda (1786)
Homelia: brechen, zerbrechen, zerstören
Homelenga, hamelinghe, hemelinge: das abschneiden, die verschneidung, verstümmlung
Hettema (1832)
Homelia, hommelje: afbreken, vernielen
Homelinge, hommeling: vernieling
Richthofen (1848)
Homelia: verstümmeln
Homelenge: verstümmlung
-
Varieties of the word in the Oera Linda Book
verb:
HOMMELJA - to destroy [3]
(all) WÀRTH HOMLJATH - is destroyed [2]
(they) WRDE HOMLJAT - are destroyed [1]
(it) HETH VRHOMELT - has destroyed [5]
(they) SEND VRHOMLATH - have been destroyed [4]
adjective:
VRHOMELDE (BURCH) - destroyed (burgh) [6]
expressive combinations:
HOMLJATH ÀND VRDÀREN [2]
HOMMELJA AND MORTHJA [3]
VRHOMLATH ÀND VRDILIGAD [4]
1 [025/15]
THÉR WRDE HUSA HOMLJAT JEFTHA SKÉPA
[O-S p.39]
daar worden huizen vernield [:gemold] of schepen
either ships or houses are destroyed
2 [033/11]
INLANDISKA ORLOCH. HWÉRTHRVCH ELLA
HOMLJATH ÀND VRDÀREN WÀRTH
[O-S p.49]
binnenlandsche oorlog, waardoor alles
in de war gebragt en in ’t verderf gestort wordt
civil wars, and everything [:wherethrough all]
is thrown into confusion and destroyed
3 [073/28]
SÉKROPS THAM NAVT NE HILDE NI
FON MORTHJA NOR FON HOMMELJA
[O-S p.103]
Cecrops die niet hield
van moorden noch van verwoesten [: hommelen, mollen]
Cecrops, who had no inclination towards
murder or devastation
[:who didn't like to kill or destroy]
4 [161/26]
ALLE BURGUM THÉR THRVCH ÀRGE TÍD
VRHOMLATH SEND ÀND VRDILIGAD
[O-S p.219]
alle burgten die door de booze [:erge] tijd
verstoord [:verhommeld] en verdelgd zijn
all the citadels that have been
disturbed and destroyed in the bad time
5 [199/17]
TROJE ALSA HETH.ÉNE STÉDE HÉTEN
THÉR ET FOLK FON THA FÉRE KRÉKA.LANDA
INNOMTH ÀND VRHOMELT HETH
[O-S p.239]
Troja alzoo heeft eene stad geheeten,
die het volk van de verre Krekalanden (Griekenland)
heeft ingenomen en verwoest [:verhommeld].
Troy is the name of a town
that the far Krekalanders (Greeks)
had taken and destroyed.
6 [202/15]
TWISK THA BVW.FALA THÉRE VRHOMELDE BURCH STÁVJA
WAS JETA ÉNE SNODE BURCH.FÁM
MITH SVME FÁMNE SÉTEN
[O-S p.243]
Tusschen de bouwvallen van de verwoeste [:verhommelde] burgt Stavia
was nog een schrandere [:snode] Burgtmaagd [:Burgfaam]
met eenige Maagden [:Famen] gevestigd [:gezeten].
Among the ruins of the destroyed citadel of Stavia
there was still established [:seated] a clever Burgtmaagd [:Burghfam],
with a few maidens [:some Fams].
-
Also plausible IMO
Quote
mollen ww. ‘kapotmaken, vernielen’
Nnl. mollen ‘dood maken’ [1706; WNT].
Oorspr. een Bargoens woord dat een afleiding is van het bn. mol ‘dood’ [1752; Moormann], ontleend aan Romani muló ‘id.’, waarvan de oorsprong niet bekend is. Eerder komt al Bargoens mollement “doodtsteeken” [1731; Moormann] voor.
Nnl. mollen ‘dood maken’ [1706; WNT].
Oorspr. een Bargoens woord dat een afleiding is van het bn. mol ‘dood’ [1752; Moormann], ontleend aan Romani muló ‘id.’, waarvan de oorsprong niet bekend is. Eerder komt al Bargoens mollement “doodtsteeken” [1731; Moormann] voor.
http://etymologieban...refwoord/mollen
Also see: http://gtb.inl.nl/iW...=WNT&id=M039962
No comments:
Post a Comment