Posted 01 November 2012 - 10:08 AM
Bataven, kent uw spraak en heel haar overvloed! ~ Bilderdijk (1756-1831)
The tribal name, probably a derivation from batawjō ("good island", from Germanic bat- "good, excellent" and awjō "island, land near water")... (wiki/Batavi)
I am not so sure about the island part, but I would agree on BAT (Dutch: baat, bate).
Baat/ bate in Middelnederlands dictionary (oldest sources 13th century):
- benefit, advantage, profit, use, value, purpose (voordeel, nut)
- pleasure, satisfaction, gratification, approval (genoegen, plezier)
- help, assistance, aid (hulp, bijstand)
- cure, remedy (geneesmiddel, remedie)
- satisfaction, atonement, compensation (genoegdoening, compensatie)
- personal name
OLB, original text [page/line]:
[010/10]
NÀMMER LÍT HJU MÉT.AL UT JRTHA DÀLVA VMB ÀJN.BÁT
[Ottema & Sandbach p.17]
Nimmer liet zij metaal uit de aarde delven om eigen voordeel
She never allowed metal to be dug from the earth for her own benefit
[018/04]
FINDATH HJU THJU SÉKE TVIVELIK
SA MOT HJU TO BÁTA FON THÉR MÉNTE SPRÉKA
[O+S p.29]
vindt zij de zaak twijfelachtig,
zoo moet zij ten bate der gemeente spreken
[when in doubt,]
she must
[025/08]
ALSA MOT.ET TO MÉNA NITHA SKÉN.
MEN NÀMMER TO BÁTA FON ENKELDERA MÀNNISKA
[O+S p.39]
alsdan moet het ten gemeenen nutte geschieden,
maar nimmer ten bate van enkelde menschen
they must be for the common good,
and not for individual advantage
[027/31]
KVMTH THÉR FLÁTE TO HONK ÀND SIN THÉR BÁTA.
SA MOTON THA STJURAR THÉR.OF EN THRIMENE HÀVA
[O+S p.41]
Komt de vloot weder thuis, en zijn er baten,
dan moeten de zeelieden daarvan een derde deel hebben
If the fleet returns with profits,
the sailors may divide one-third among themselves
[029/09]
THJU MÉNTE MOT ET BÉTERA NÉI SINA STÀT.
WARA THÀT SIN FRIANDA THENE BÁTA WÉIGERJA
[O+S p.43]
de gemeente moet dat vergoeden naar zijn staat,
tenzij dat zijne vrienden dit voordeel weigeren
the community must bear the expense,
unless his friends decline to receive
[040/28]
THÀT FOLK FINDA.S HETH ÁK SETMA ÀND DOMAR.
MEN THISSA NE SEND NAVT NÉI THA RJUCHT.
MEN ALLÉNA TO BATA THÉRA PRESTERA ÀND FORSTA
[O+S p.59]
Het volk van Finda heeft ook inzettingen en bepalingen,
maar deze zijn niet volgens het recht,
maar alleen ten bate van de priesters en vorsten
The people of Finda have also their rules and regulations,
but these are not made according to what is just—
only for the advantage of priests and princes
[076/07]
NÉI THÉRA FÁMNA HROP HETHER TO LESTA EN FODDIK FON HIR KRÉJEN.
THA HJU HET.IM NAVT NE BÁT
[O+S p.107]
Naar het zeggen der maagden heeft hij van haar ten laatste eene lamp gekregen;
doch zij heeft hem niet gebaat
According to the report of the maidens, he obtained a lamp from her;
but it
[089/23]
OWERS NAS THIT BOK NAVT SKRÉVEN NE WRDEN.
AFSKÉN IK ALLE HÁPE VRLÉREN HÀV THATET SKIL HELPA THA BÁTA
[O+S p.125]
anders was het boek niet geschreven geworden,
ofschoon ik alle hoop verloren heb, dat het helpen zal ten bate
otherwise this book would not have been written,
although I have lost all hope that it would be of any use
[135/05]
VNDER THESSE ARBÉD WRDON HJA GRÉV ÀND STRÀM ÉR HJA JÉRICH WÉRON
ÀND STURVON SVNDER NOCHTA AFSKÉN JRTHA THAM OVERFLODLIK FVL JÉFATH
TO BÁTA AL HJARA BERN
[O+S p.185]
Onder dezen arbeid werden zij grijs en stram eer zij oud waren
en stierven zonder genot, ofschoon de aarde dat overvloedig veel geeft
ter bate van al hare kinderen
Under this treatment they grew gray and old before their time,
and died without any enjoyment; although the earth produces abundantly
for the good of all her children
[149/18]
HO FRISO ALLE TO BIDOBBE WISTE
TO NOCHT FON BÉDE PARTJA AND TO BÁTE FON SIN ÀJN DOL
[O+S p.203]
hoe Friso allen wist te bedotten,
tot genoegen van beide partijen en ten bate van zijn eigen doel
how Friso understood deceiving everybody,
to the satisfaction of both parties, and to the accomplishment of his own ends
[189/23]
THA NE JÉF WR.ALDA THÉR NÉN MELOK IN
SA NE SKOLDON THA BERN THÉR NÉNE BÁTE BY FINDA
[O+S p.229]
Doch gaf Wralda daar geene melk in,
zoo zouden de kinderen daar geen baat bij vinden
but if Wr-alda did not give them milk
the children would find no advantage
[206/08]
THÉRVMBE HÀVON TO SÉMNE ÉNE LEST FORSONNEN THÉR VS ALLE BÁTA MOST
[O+S p.247]
Daarom hebben wij te zamen eene list verzonnen, die ons allen moest baten
Therefore, we hit upon a plan which might
[206/21]
ÁSKAR HÉDE AL THISSA DWÁSHÉDA TO SIN BÁTA ANWENTH
ÀND THAT WILDON WI NV ÁK TO VSA BÁTA DVA
[O+S p.249]
Askar had al deze dwaasheden tot zijn voordeel aangewend,
en dat wilden wij nu ook tot ons voordeel doen
Askar had made use of all these follies for his own advantage,
and [now] we wished to do the same [to our advantage]
~
Conclusion: BAT as root for a tribe-name would make perfect sense.
Van Gorp, on 01 November 2012 - 05:47 PM, said:
So, that's what we see in it's name: Baat-haven.
Interesting Goropius, in stede of haven (harbor), I would just say have (as in to have; hebben).
Both words are even used in this fragment:
[027/31]
KVMTH THÉR FLÁTE TO HONK ÀND SIN THÉR BÁTA.
SA MOTON THA STJURAR THÉR.OF EN THRIMENE HÀVA
BÁTA.HÀVA => BÁTHÀVA => BÁTAVA => BATAVE(N) => baathebbers
=> they who have...
benefit, advantage, profit, use, value, purpose, pleasure, satisfaction, etc.
Perfect name!
Abramelin, on 01 November 2012 - 06:38 PM, said:
So, what could the name Cananefates, a tribe closely related to the Batavians (and both split off from the Chatti tribe), mean?
I still prefer the most simple explanation (and I know it is rejected by the main stream):
KANINAFATA - konijnevatters - rabbitcatchers
OLB has one fragment with KANINA (rabbits):
[065/20]
JON THÀT IS JÉVA. WAS SÉ.KÀNING. BERN TO.T.ALDER.GÁ.
TO.T.FLÍ.MAR UT FÁREN MITH 100 ÀND 27 SKÉPUM. TOHRÉTH FÁR EN GRÁTE BUTA RÉIS.
RIK TO LÉDEN MITH BÀRNSTÉN. TIN. KÁPER. ÍSER. LÉKEN. LINNENT. FILT.
FÁMNA.FILT FON OTTER. BÉVER ÀND KANINA.HÉR.
Many fragments with FATA (to catch; Dutch: vatten), and words derived from it:
SE VMBIFATTATH THJU SKÉDNISSE FON VS ÉLE FOLK
SA HJA.RA THRVCH VS FOLK FATA DÉDON
SEND THÉR SVM THRVCH THENE FYAND FAT
THÀT MÀN THENE DÉDER FATA
THAT I HIM THÉRAN VRFATE
ÉR ER FAT WRDE
(... etcetera)
Our coastal area still houses plenty of rabbits, they are good food and have useful skins.
This explanation makes most sense to me.
Abramelin, on 01 November 2012 - 07:12 PM, said:
The main problem is: there were no rabbits here, back then.
They were introduced by the Romans, and long after Tacitus.
They were introduced by the Romans, and long after Tacitus.
How certain is that? From where did the Romans get them? What is the source for this?
It is also possible that their KANINA were not exactly the same species as our 'konijnen'.
Abramelin, on 01 November 2012 - 10:49 PM, said:
I knew this already in highschool.
Arguments like "everyone knows that" and "I have always known that" are invalid.
Quote
... where are the bones of these critters?
There are none to be found, not until centuries after Tacitus.
There are none to be found, not until centuries after Tacitus.
The remains of rabbits that were eaten will have been thrown into the fire, but anyway, small animalls like critters and birds don't grow bones that last very long. When left in nature they are gone within a year or two.
Were bones of other small 2000 yrs BP animals found?
=== Posted 02 November 2012 - 01:00 PM
Socrates on language in Cratylus by Plato:
Her. What do you say of pur (fire) and udor (water)?
Soc. I am at a loss how to explain pur; either the muse of Euthyphro has deserted me, or there is some very great difficulty in the word. Please, however, to note the contrivance which I adopt whenever I am in a difficulty of this sort.
Her. What is it?
Soc. I will tell you; but I should like to know first whether you can tell me what is the meaning of the pur?
Her. Indeed I cannot.
Soc. Shall I tell you what I suspect to be the true explanation of this and several other words?- My belief is that they are of foreign origin. For the Hellenes, especially those who were under the dominion of the barbarians, often borrowed from them.
Her. What is the inference?
Soc. Why, you know that any one who seeks to demonstrate the fitness of these names according to the Hellenic language, and not according to the language from which the words are derived, is rather likely to be at fault.
Her. Yes, certainly.
Soc. Well then, consider whether this pur is not foreign; for the word is not easily brought into relation with the Hellenic tongue, and the Phrygians may be observed to have the same word slightly changed, just as they have udor (water) and kunes (dogs), and many other words.
Her. That is true.
http://classics.mit....o/cratylus.html
~ ~ ~
HVND - OLB
hond - dutch
hund - german, danish, swedish, norwegian
hundur - icelandic
hound - english, westflemmish
hûn - frisian
chien - french
cane - italian
cão - portuguese
kun - greek (plato)
FJVR - OLB
feuer - german
vuur - dutch
fire - english
feu - french
fuego - spanish
fogo - portuguese
pur - greek (plato)
WÉTER - OLB
water - english, dutch
wasser - german
weeder - nordfrisian
wetter - frisian
vatn - icelandic, norwegian
vatten - swedish
vand - danish
watter - scottish
udor - greek (plato)
The way Greeks adopted 'barbarian' words is very similar to the way Indonesians adopted Dutch words.
Some make no sense when you read them, but when you hear them, they may still be recognised.
Her. What do you say of pur (fire) and udor (water)?
Soc. I am at a loss how to explain pur; either the muse of Euthyphro has deserted me, or there is some very great difficulty in the word. Please, however, to note the contrivance which I adopt whenever I am in a difficulty of this sort.
Her. What is it?
Soc. I will tell you; but I should like to know first whether you can tell me what is the meaning of the pur?
Her. Indeed I cannot.
Soc. Shall I tell you what I suspect to be the true explanation of this and several other words?- My belief is that they are of foreign origin. For the Hellenes, especially those who were under the dominion of the barbarians, often borrowed from them.
Her. What is the inference?
Soc. Why, you know that any one who seeks to demonstrate the fitness of these names according to the Hellenic language, and not according to the language from which the words are derived, is rather likely to be at fault.
Her. Yes, certainly.
Soc. Well then, consider whether this pur is not foreign; for the word is not easily brought into relation with the Hellenic tongue, and the Phrygians may be observed to have the same word slightly changed, just as they have udor (water) and kunes (dogs), and many other words.
Her. That is true.
http://classics.mit....o/cratylus.html
~ ~ ~
HVND - OLB
hond - dutch
hund - german, danish, swedish, norwegian
hundur - icelandic
hound - english, westflemmish
hûn - frisian
chien - french
cane - italian
cão - portuguese
kun - greek (plato)
FJVR - OLB
feuer - german
vuur - dutch
fire - english
feu - french
fuego - spanish
fogo - portuguese
pur - greek (plato)
WÉTER - OLB
water - english, dutch
wasser - german
weeder - nordfrisian
wetter - frisian
vatn - icelandic, norwegian
vatten - swedish
vand - danish
watter - scottish
udor - greek (plato)
The way Greeks adopted 'barbarian' words is very similar to the way Indonesians adopted Dutch words.
Some make no sense when you read them, but when you hear them, they may still be recognised.
I think I have the answer to Socrates' question...
The Timaeus makes conjectures on the composition of the four elements which some ancient Greeks thought constituted the physical universe: earth, water, air, and fire. Timaeus links each of these elements to a certain Platonic solid: the element of earth would be a cube, of air an octahedron, of water an icosahedron, and of fire a tetrahedron.
(wiki/Timaeus_dialogue)
The Timaeus makes conjectures on the composition of the four elements which some ancient Greeks thought constituted the physical universe: earth, water, air, and fire. Timaeus links each of these elements to a certain Platonic solid: the element of earth would be a cube, of air an octahedron, of water an icosahedron, and of fire a tetrahedron.
(wiki/Timaeus_dialogue)
OLB, "TEX FRYAS", page 12, line 11 (original manuscript):
FJUWER THINGA SEND TO JVWE NOT JÉVEN.
MITH NÁMA. LOFT. WÉTER. LÁND ÀND FJUR
English (Sandbach 1876):
Four things are given for your enjoyment
—air, water, land, and fire
Dutch (Ottema 1872):
Vier dingen zijn tot uw genot gegeven,
met name lucht, water, land en vuur
Note how, in the OLB language, fire seems to have been derived from four.
In geometry, a tetrahedron (plural: tetrahedra) is a polyhedron composed of four triangular faces, three of which meet at each vertex.
(wiki/Tetrahedron)
FJUWER THINGA SEND TO JVWE NOT JÉVEN.
MITH NÁMA. LOFT. WÉTER. LÁND ÀND FJUR
English (Sandbach 1876):
Four things are given for your enjoyment
—air, water, land, and fire
Dutch (Ottema 1872):
Vier dingen zijn tot uw genot gegeven,
met name lucht, water, land en vuur
Note how, in the OLB language, fire seems to have been derived from four.
In geometry, a tetrahedron (plural: tetrahedra) is a polyhedron composed of four triangular faces, three of which meet at each vertex.
(wiki/Tetrahedron)
======
This is not a complete list, but it provides a good idea of varieties of the word for rabbit:
kinnen - scottish
kanínur - icelandic
kaniner - swedish
kanin - german, norwegian, danish
kniende - nethersaxon
knoin - westfrisian
konijn - dutch
k(e)nyn - frisian
keun - westflemmish
coniglio - italian
cuniculus - latin
kounéli - greek
conill - catalan
conejo - spanish
coelho - portuguese
The map makes it more visual:
kinnen - scottish
kanínur - icelandic
kaniner - swedish
kanin - german, norwegian, danish
kniende - nethersaxon
knoin - westfrisian
konijn - dutch
k(e)nyn - frisian
keun - westflemmish
coniglio - italian
cuniculus - latin
kounéli - greek
conill - catalan
conejo - spanish
coelho - portuguese
The map makes it more visual:
Van Gorp, on 02 November 2012 - 08:58 PM, said:
Lapin, possibility is again loop-in
... as with gaen-in, kan-in -> kanin, konijn
... as with gaen-in, kan-in -> kanin, konijn
Yes, I agree, that makes sense.
Thanks VG.
(maar voor kan-in zou ik de tussenstap gaan weglaten; hij kan erin, loopt erin)
From: A Dictionary of English Etymology by Hensleigh Wedgwood (1872)
Boh. - Bohemian or Czech.
Dief. - Diefenbach (Gothischen Sprache 1851)
Du. - Dutch
G. - German
It. - Italian
Kil. - Kiliaan (Teutonic-Latin dictionary 1599)
Lat. Latin
N. - Norwegian or Norse
ON. - Old Norse, Icelandic
W. - Welsh
=== Posted 03 November 2012 - 12:03 PM
Browsing through the Dictionary of English Etymology (Hensleigh Wedgwood, 1872), I found something noteworthy, possibly related to the notorious two-letter-word (OD).
... a point... sticking up?!
I can see how that will have made the three primal mothers pregnant.
I can see how that will have made the three primal mothers pregnant.
=== Posted 04 November 2012 - 09:49 PM
Variety in spelling and diction between the letters of Hidde (1256 CE) and Liko (803 CE) Over de Linden.
First attempt in trying to figure out the pronunciation of vowels in OLB.
For vowel chart with audio, go here: http://en.wikipedia....hart_with_audio
THV will probably be like the German "du" and the English "you".
This is an example of 'Fryan' being sometimes less similar to Dutch (je, jij) or Frisian (do), than to other NW-European languages.
Added 23-10-2013:
This is an example of 'Fryan' being sometimes less similar to Dutch (je, jij) or Frisian (do), than to other NW-European languages.
Added 23-10-2013:
=== Posted 05 November 2012 - 11:28 AM
Van Gorp, on 03 November 2012 - 11:05 AM, said:
Vuur-Phur: brandschoon, pure (see burning ritual for cleansing), zuiver, sauber, super pure.
Along with the swastika (symbol of the sun, and the sun burns -> see burning wheel) we can see in that symbol 4 times 4. The 4 pure elements.
If we see that purusha is the unlimited conscience of the burning flame within, it is clear for me that vier-vuur-phuur (four-fire-pure) are related.
Pyro-maan, vuure-man.
On top, if we take pride-> zijn we fier -> we glimmen -> and vieren (celebrating) was done around the fire
Along with the swastika (symbol of the sun, and the sun burns -> see burning wheel) we can see in that symbol 4 times 4. The 4 pure elements.
If we see that purusha is the unlimited conscience of the burning flame within, it is clear for me that vier-vuur-phuur (four-fire-pure) are related.
Pyro-maan, vuure-man.
On top, if we take pride-> zijn we fier -> we glimmen -> and vieren (celebrating) was done around the fire
Yes to me the fire - pure (πυρά ~ πυρ) connection is obvious too.
It is shocking that official etymologists don't seem to acknowledge this.
http://www.etymologi.../trefwoord/puur
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pure
Van Gorp, on 03 November 2012 - 06:36 PM, said:
About
Dutch/Flemish: indeed a pitty that the 'Algemeen Bijgeschaafd
Nederlands' was inforced to diminish the local dialects, but they still
exists and some sound pretty much as OLB.
Exactly!
Latin has been a lingua 'franca', later Frankish/ French and now it's English.
The good thing is, that after the empires collapse, people will not like to speak that language any more and use their own dialects again, although some new words may stay as souvenirs, while some old words will have been lost.
Van Gorp, on 03 November 2012 - 08:44 PM, said:
For
the replacements: that doesn't explain for example the deplaced/double
story of Willebrord and the veneration of him in North of France.
Either he entered in Holland or in North of France.
And boarding in Holland to go lateron to the south (where the crossing of the channel was much easier) does not make any sense.
Either he entered in Holland or in North of France.
And boarding in Holland to go lateron to the south (where the crossing of the channel was much easier) does not make any sense.
Exactly!
At the other hand, the Dutch rivers go very deep inland...
The low lands are a river delta.
The low lands are a river delta.
Van Gorp, on 04 November 2012 - 12:29 AM, said:
A possibility concerning the Caninefates which comes into my mind, and connection to KANINA and 'konijnen' could be as follows.
Root "Kan" (like in Latin "canna", Spanish "cañón", kano, kanaal, Can-yon, think 'kenien' in our dialect :-) is just pointing to a long hollow tube.
This is prety obvious i think, hence also the name for animals doing just that.
Btw canis: idem dito, hondje in zijn rieten mandje (kanneke) :-)
Root "Kan" (like in Latin "canna", Spanish "cañón", kano, kanaal, Can-yon, think 'kenien' in our dialect :-) is just pointing to a long hollow tube.
This is prety obvious i think, hence also the name for animals doing just that.
Btw canis: idem dito, hondje in zijn rieten mandje (kanneke) :-)
That totally makes sense!
Small dogs were used to enter fox- and rabbit- holes etc.
Latin: caninus and Old-German: kaninisk = doggish, dog-like
Abramelin, on 04 November 2012 - 03:42 PM, said:
Back to the Batavians: could their name not mean something like 'warriors'?
Here's why:
... Baduhenna appears to be a goddess of war
... Germanic *badwa-, battle
... O.E. beatan "inflict blows on, thrash"
... battle (n.) c.1300, from O.Fr. bataille
... batter (v.) "strike repeatedly, beat violently and rapidly,"
... bat (n.1) "a stick, a club,"
... Batavi as the bravest of the tribes of the area, hardened in the Germanic wars
Here's why:
... Baduhenna appears to be a goddess of war
... Germanic *badwa-, battle
... O.E. beatan "inflict blows on, thrash"
... battle (n.) c.1300, from O.Fr. bataille
... batter (v.) "strike repeatedly, beat violently and rapidly,"
... bat (n.1) "a stick, a club,"
... Batavi as the bravest of the tribes of the area, hardened in the Germanic wars
First of all, the best names are ambiguous ones, ones that have several meanings.
But this one indeed makes much sense too me, and I was also thinking about Boudicca, a queen who lead a war against the Romans.
When at war, the fighters need a strong name to scream, something that gives them power.
Similar is why Wodin, Wotan is a good name for war; it has "wut" (dutch woede; rage anger) in it.
Van Gorp, on 04 November 2012 - 11:20 PM, said:
Is
it correct that all the dates of the tales mentionned are derived from
the date Atland was sunken (being 2193 BC, mentionned once by Hidde in
1256 AD)?
Yes it is the only time two counting systems are combined.
That it will at least roughly be right, can be seen from other stories, for example Buda/Yes-us (6th C. BCE), Alexander (ca. 300 BCE).
=== Posted 05 November 2012 - 03:15 PM
OK, you convinced me that the CF were no rabbit or hare hunters.
VG pointed out that CAN* can be related to channel (Dutch: kanaal, gracht, sloot).
The low lands were swampy and in order to make the land dry, channels were dug out, which was also very helpful for transportation.
The Netherlands are well known for their waterworks.
Combined with the French verb "faire" (to do, make), I can imagine a word like CAN..FAT.. meaning something channel-diggers.
An peculiar activity of the area.
As for the KANINA-skins in the JON story (plm. 1600 BCE); this may refer to polecats, weasels, hares, or ...?
The article does not say there were no hares, just that not much was found of them.
Since even in Roman times there seems to have been confusion about dogs and rabbits, because of the similar terms (agreeably having to do with the ability to go in holes), the name may not have been used for rabbits alone in JON's time. The furs of all those rodents tend to be soft.
VG pointed out that CAN* can be related to channel (Dutch: kanaal, gracht, sloot).
The low lands were swampy and in order to make the land dry, channels were dug out, which was also very helpful for transportation.
The Netherlands are well known for their waterworks.
Combined with the French verb "faire" (to do, make), I can imagine a word like CAN..FAT.. meaning something channel-diggers.
An peculiar activity of the area.
As for the KANINA-skins in the JON story (plm. 1600 BCE); this may refer to polecats, weasels, hares, or ...?
The article does not say there were no hares, just that not much was found of them.
Since even in Roman times there seems to have been confusion about dogs and rabbits, because of the similar terms (agreeably having to do with the ability to go in holes), the name may not have been used for rabbits alone in JON's time. The furs of all those rodents tend to be soft.
Abramelin, on 05 November 2012 - 05:01 PM, said:
If the Cananefates dug their own channels, the Romans would not have needed to dig their own
I don't agree.
The Romans will have needed channels to supply their armies and other strategic purposes, while the CF may have made ones primarily to have dry land to live and farm on.
Quote
We are talking about channels, not ditches, and about the land of the Cananefates, not the whole of the Netherlands.
1. Who says smaller channels and ditches would not have been known as CAN* (whatever old term that evolved into our "kanaal")?
2. If the CF made many ditches and were named after that activity, that does not impy that they were the only ones making ditches, or that they only made ditches.
People can be named "Van Dijk" without living near a dike, while others can live there, without having that name.
Abramelin, on 05 November 2012 - 05:18 PM, said:
Maybe we all are focusing a bit too much on the Batavii amd the Cananefates.
Every time the OLB-language helps inspire plausible explanations for names like these, it adds to its credibility and value.
======
Abramelin, on 05 November 2012 - 05:53 PM, said:
Previous research by the RMO showed that the garnets in the fibulae from Rhenen came from India and Pakistan.
...
But this is about jewelry from the early middle ages...not from a millenium of more BC.
...
The seventh century goldsmith who made the famous cloak pin of Wijnaldum, took his precious stones from India.
...
But this is about jewelry from the early middle ages...not from a millenium of more BC.
...
The seventh century goldsmith who made the famous cloak pin of Wijnaldum, took his precious stones from India.
Yes I read that too last week or so.
Precious stones and metals may have been used and re-used for thousands of years.
If Friso and the 'Gér(t)man(n)a' from NW-India indeed arrived in NW-Europe after Alexander's fall, they would have brought precious things like that.
Part of their treasures will have been recycled up till today.
I have no words to describe the silver-art that I saw last year in the Frisian Museum in Ljouwert.
They must have had a very old tradition.
(I have seen many similar exhibitions all over the world.)
======
Abramelin, on 06 November 2012 - 04:05 AM, said:
If the CF had dug ditches or canals to drain their land, we would have found traces of them, even now.
I'm sure we have. Terps and hill-forts were built here too. These lands are only habitable with some sort of water management.
Quote
If CAN means ditch or canal, what does CANAN or CANIN or CANNIN mean?
Plural.
Quote
IF
CAN in Cananefates does indeed mean ditch, canal or waterway, then
their name hints at their main occupation: digging canals and so on.
So do Sé-kampar, Lith-hawar, Wit-kénings, Juttar, Anglar, Hér-lju, Sturii, etc.
Quote
You
cannot compare the way they received their names with how we receive
our (family) names now. The surnames we have now originated in
Napoleontic times: everybody received a family name, based on
profession, habit, physical characteristic and so on. These surnames
were passed on to next generations: even if your profession wasn't a
butcher, you still inherited that name, Butcher, from your ancestors.
Naming is done by law since 1811, but many families had used the same name for many hundreds of years before that.
My own family name has been used as such for over a 1000 years (origin Switzerland/ Austria/ S-Germany).
Abramelin, on 06 November 2012 - 04:13 AM, said:
Unless you want to stick the the Batavi being 'masters', or the 'better ones' and the Cananefates being 'rabbit catchers'.
I would never stick to one meaning. As I said before, the best names are ambiguous ones.
BTW, Kaninafata can still mean Coneycatchers even when they did not catch a single rabbit in the Dutch dunes. They may have lived in Iberia for a while before they migrated north to resettle.
Or... the coney - cunny ambiguity may already have existed back then.
Of course it did; cunnilingus is Latin too.
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Abramelin, on 07 November 2012 - 08:23 AM, said:
eleven
c.1200, elleovene, from O.E. endleofan, lit. "one left" (over ten), from P.Gmc. *ainlif- (cf. O.S. elleban, O.Fris. andlova, Du. elf, O.H.G. einlif, Ger. elf, O.N. ellifu, Goth. ainlif), a compound of *ain "one" (see one) + PIE *leikw- "leave, remain" (cf. Gk. leipein "to leave behind;" see relinquish).
c.1200, elleovene, from O.E. endleofan, lit. "one left" (over ten), from P.Gmc. *ainlif- (cf. O.S. elleban, O.Fris. andlova, Du. elf, O.H.G. einlif, Ger. elf, O.N. ellifu, Goth. ainlif), a compound of *ain "one" (see one) + PIE *leikw- "leave, remain" (cf. Gk. leipein "to leave behind;" see relinquish).
Great, Abe.
Silly me, to forget about E-leven ("leven" in Dutch is life or to live), when 2-LIF is twelve.
And now we can reconstruct what 11 might have been spelled in Fryan: ENLIF or ÉNLIF (in modern Dutch: elf).
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lilthor, on 07 November 2012 - 09:07 PM, said:
So Over de Linden may have descended from an ancient lineage of paper-makers.
Possibly giving them a key role in creating and keeping written records of all types.
And making plausible the idea that this family would be inclined to pass along written keepsakes between generations.
Possibly giving them a key role in creating and keeping written records of all types.
And making plausible the idea that this family would be inclined to pass along written keepsakes between generations.
Abramelin:
It might be, yes. Up to a couple of years ago there still was an Over de Linden printing house in Enkhuizen.
Well, I got inspired by Otharus 'Liber', and then things started rolling, lol.
I really never thought of lime bark/bast as a source for paper, but linden/lime trees must have been quite abundant in the ancient Low Lands before we started cutting them all down.
Well, I got inspired by Otharus 'Liber', and then things started rolling, lol.
I really never thought of lime bark/bast as a source for paper, but linden/lime trees must have been quite abundant in the ancient Low Lands before we started cutting them all down.
Otharus:
Neither did I.
Valuable finds, Abe.
Wonderful how we inspire each other here.
Valuable finds, Abe.
Wonderful how we inspire each other here.
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Abramelin, on 12 November 2012 - 10:33 AM, said:
OK,
suppose Delahaye will be proven right, and that Dutch historical events
and places between around 200 and 1000 CE were actually events and
place in Belgium and Northern France, then you please tell me how that
would prove the OLB narrative which was first put onto paper in the 6th
century BCE. a story that ended somewhere in the first decade BCE.
It would put the so called Frisian 'fantastic' historiography (Van Scharle and others) in a different light, which would put the OLB in a different light.
Abramelin, on 12 November 2012 - 03:06 PM, said:
Can you give one example of how that would change the way we now view the works of many Frisian historiographers?
Good question.
Yes, I think I can give several examples.
Because this is a very important issue, I will take some time to collect the exact references.
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Van Gorp, on 13 November 2012 - 10:15 PM, said:
Engelen hangen ook in de lucht.
Romains/Greeks pronounced it quite well: Angelus/Angelos: Hangel-Is.
Romains/Greeks pronounced it quite well: Angelus/Angelos: Hangel-Is.
As not unusually, OLB made me a suggestion to an etymology, more plausible than all existing ones.
[001/19]
THAT IK NÉN MODER NÉSA NAVT NILDE
THRVCHDAM IK APOL TO MIN ÉNGÁ JÉRDE
=> znw. letterlijk: enige; betekenis: wederhelft
[009/05]
AN STILNISE NE WÉNADON HJA NÉNEN ÉNGE TÁR
=> bnw. enige
[033/02]
IS THÉR ENG KWÁD DÉN [...]
=> bnw. enig
[041/18]
IS HWA FIF ÀND TVINTICH ÀND HETH ER NÉN ÉNGÁ
SÁ ACH EK MAN HIM UT SIN HUS TO WÉRANE
[...] NIMTH ER THÀN NACH NÉN ÉNGÁ [...]
=> znw. letterlijk: enige; betekenis: wederhelft
[042/03]
SAHWERSA ÀMMAN ENG GOD THETH (HETH) [...]
=> bnw. enig
[051/22]
THA PRESTERA SEND THA ENGOSTA HÉRA
=> bnw. enigste
[096/20]
ADELA IS THET ENGE BERN VSAR GRÉVET.MAN
=> bnw. enige
[102/14]
THERVMBE NE MÉI JRTHA SELVA NER ENG SKEPSLE NI SEDSA IK BEN
=> bnw. enig
[199/03]
SKÉPON THÉR HJA RÁVED HÀVE IS HJARA ÉNGE SKÀT
=> bnw. enige
~ ~ ~
http://gtb.inl.nl/iW...b=ONW&id=ID2315
Tho sprag sancta Maria zo themo eingele so geheren.
nu woldik thaz the apostoli hir waren.
That se min plégen. ande min ende gesâgen.
Toen sprak de heilige Maria tot de zo voortreffelijke engel:
"Nu zou ik willen dat de apostelen hier waren,
opdat ze mij verzorgen en mijn levenseinde aanschouwen.".
Mfr.Reimb. A, r. 455 Werden, Essen?, Noord-Oost Nederland, 1151-1200.
Tho her theses líues solde gewandelen,
tho wart sin sîele unt fangen uan godes êngelen.
Toen hij (t.w. Lazarus) moest sterven,
werd zijn ziel ontvangen door Gods engelen.
Mfr.Reimb. A, r. 685 Werden, Essen?, Noord-Oost Nederland, 1151-1200.
Van Gorp, on 13 November 2012 - 11:14 PM, said:
do
you mean you sea also a meaning in Eng-elen as the 'only ones' (a bit
like the choosen ones?, not the whole lot but the particular, enige-n,
the ap-pointed ones)
Yes, something like that.
Quote
'eng' also meaning 'nauw' -> like in being/having be-nauwd when you feel narrowed/enclosed/fixed?
I noticed that (in OLB) ENG / ÉNG in the meaning of "enig" (only) is consequently spelled with N+G (separate letters), while ENG in the meaning of "nauw" (narrow) is spelled with the special NG (single) letter.
======
Abramelin, on 14 November 2012 - 10:42 AM, said:
OK, I see it on Vandemaele's map
Before the Kelts, Gauls and Romans became a serious threat, this will have been a more strategic area.
The northern Netherlands were also inhabited at (old) times, but mostly by farmers it seems.
In France and Belgium many (royal?) burial mounds were found from the iron age.
With the Romans and later the Franks moving ever more north, specially the (cultural) elite will have fled to what is now the northern NL (and possibly to Scandinavia, Scotland and Russia?).
As for the chronicle by Okko van Scharl:
It was edited and re-issued by Johannes Vlytarp, and again in 1742 by Andreas van Staveren (printed by Abraham Ferwerda in Ljouwert).
For van Staveren and Ferwerda it was business, just like Hollywood movies today.
They will have wanted to please (wealthy) crowds and they will have avoided to offend the church.
Van Staveren, Vlytarp, Van Skarl and their predecessors will all have edited parts.
They may have interpreted and moved certain stories north (consciously or not).
One has to take everything with a pinch of salt, but that does not mean that all is merely worthless fantasy.
After having read Wilkens' book on Troy, it became perfectly clear to me how the Troy story ended up in Greece, creating much confusion.
Similar things may have happened here.
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