24 September 2013

Forum #35 English (18 june - 24 sept. 2013)

Posted 18 June 2013 - 09:06 PM
View PostAbramelin, on 18 June 2013 - 05:40 PM, said:
In that case people who risked their lives at sea in a battle would get paid in salt.....
How likely you think that is?
In case you forgot: the sea IS salty.  It's like getting paid in sand when you work in the desert, lol.

"It is commonly believed that Roman soldiers were at certain times paid with salt. (They say the soldiers who did their job well were "worth their salt.") The word 'salary' derives from the Latin word salārium, possibly referring to money given to soldiers so they could buy salt. The Roman Republic and Empire controlled the price of salt, increasing it to raise money for wars, or lowering it to be sure that the poorest citizens could easily afford this important part of the diet.

It was also of high value to the Hebrews, Greeks, the Chinese, Hittites and other peoples of antiquity."
etc.
source: http://en.wikipedia....History_of_salt

Posted 23 June 2013 - 12:03 PM
View PostAbramelin, on 22 June 2013 - 08:15 PM, said:
7. Lêt maen hja aefternêi hlâpa, sâ lêt maen thaet mith welhêd thrvch tha fâmna dva, til thju wi âtha aend frjundawinna fori lêtha aend fyandun.
7. If they are afterwards set free, it must be done with kindness by the maidens, in order that we may make them comradesand friends, instead of haters and enemies.

I'd suggest "allies and friends" here.

Posted 23 June 2013 - 05:23 PM
View PostAbramelin, on 23 June 2013 - 05:12 PM, said:
"Friends of the salt", or maybe "allies of the salt" is nonsense, agreed?

I'd just say "salt-allies" and don't think that's nonsense in the context.

Posted 23 June 2013 - 07:24 PM
View PostAbramelin, on 23 June 2013 - 05:48 PM, said:
Think about it for some time, and then you'll realize it's nothing but a nonsense folk-etymology.

allies-paid-in-salt

I have seen mainstream (oldschool) etymologies that make less sense.

Your "friends of the salt" is misleading.
Would you transalte "wapenbroeders" (brothers in arms; 'weaponbrothers') as "brothers of the weapons"?

And even if it is a 'folk-etymology', it can be a thousands-years old one.
It would not prove OLB to be a hoax.

Posted 24 June 2013 - 07:13 PM
View PostFrom 24 June 2013 - 05:06 PM:
lêtha aend fyandun / haters and enemies
"Haters" is Sandbach's translation of Ottema's "haters"
Oldfrisian dictionaries:
De Haan Hettema (1832 and 1874) => vijand => enemy
Richthofen (1840) => böse => angry, evil

Posted 24 June 2013 - 07:29 PM
View PostFrom 24 June 2013 - 06:57 PM:
One soldier had already defiled a ... little buck??
"Buik, in onze bet., in 't mnl. ook balch geheeten; ook in die van moederlijf" (http://gtb.inl.nl/iW...&lemmodern=buik) => belly, mother's body

Posted 24 June 2013 - 08:09 PM
View PostAbramelin, on 24 June 2013 - 07:19 PM, said:
Or the opposite of "enemy"?
That can only be "friend", right?

or ally (dutch: bondgenoot); not exactly the same as friend

Posted 25 June 2013 - 08:23 AM
View PostAbramelin, on 25 June 2013 - 01:23 AM, said:
Do you have any etymology for "bukja"?
You haven't, right?
Nothing at all that comes close to anything meaning "girl".
Simple.
If BUK (buik) can mean "mother's body" (moederlijf), then the diminutive BUKJA can mean "young mother's body" => girl

Posted 25 June 2013 - 06:09 PM
What has not been noted yet, is that the word for soldiers SALT.ÁTHA, is not used for warriers/ defenders of the Fryans themselves.

It can therefore originally be like a sobriquet (mocking-/ scoffing-word):

'friends'/ 'allies' as long as they get paid (with salt).

Fragments:

1. Gértmen

[073/14]
SALT.ATHA FON THA WILDE BERCHFOLKUM

[073/18]
DRÉI AS HJA THJU HÁVA INNOMTH HÉDE.
WILDON THA WILDA SALT.ÁTHA THÀT THORP ÀND VSA SKIPA BIRÁWA.
ÉN SALT.ÁTHE HÉDE AL EN BUKJA SKÀND.

[074/25]
THENE KÉNING FON THÍRHIS ÀFTERNÉI SJANDE
THAT SIN ALDERBESTA STJURAR WÉI BRIT WÉREN
SAND AL SIN SKIPA MITH SINA WILDE SALT.ÁTHA
VMBER DÁD JEFTA LÉVAND TO FÁTANE

2. Ljudgért I

[121/25]
NW GVNG.ER [:ALEXANDRE] TO ÀND KÁS ALTHAM UT SIN FOLK ÀND UT SINA SALT.ATHA
THÉR WENATH WÉRON WR.NE SÉ TO FÁRANE

[122/05]
HI [:ALEXANDRE] HÉDE SINA SALT.ATHA BÁMA KAPJA LÉTA

[122/10]
THACH THA SALT.ATHA THÉR FON THET BERG.LAND KÉMON WÉRON ANG TO FARA SÉ.

[122/19]
HI WILDE THA SALT.ATHA THRVCH SIN AJN FOLK OMBRENSA LÉTA

[123/20]
THA WI BI THÉRE ÉUPHRAT KÉMON.
GVNG NÉARCHUS MITH THA SALT.ATHA ÀND FÉLO FON SIN FOLK WAL VP

[125/03]
FORTH GVNGON WI SALT.ÁTHA LIFTOCHTA ÀND WÉPNE FÁRA

[125/18]
DÉMÉTRIUS WN THÉRE KÉSE.
THA NAVT THRVCH SINA SALT.ÁTHA

[125/25]
AFTERNÉI GVNG DÉMTRIUS LÁS VP HRODUS.
THÉR HINNE BROCHTON WI SINA SALT.ÁTHA ÁND LIFTOCHTA WR

3. Ljudgért II

[165/11]
THISA MINSKA SIND WÉRENTLIK ÍRA BONAR.
THÉR AMMER MITH HJARA HORSA VP OVERA FJELDA DWÁLA.
THÉR AMMER JÁGJA ÀND RÁWA
ÀND THÉR HJARA SELVA ALS SALT.ÁTHA FORHÉRA ANTHA OMHÉMMANDE FORSTA

4. Rika's letter

[190/22]
FORI THENE SKÀT THAM THÉROF KÉM
HÉRADON HJA VRLANDISKA SALT.ÁTHA.

5. Black Adel

[197/11]
HÉMIS DÉGA SEND HJA MITH VSA VRBRUDA BROTHARUM ÀND HJARA SALT.ÁTHUM
AL OVERA SKELDA KVMEN.

[197/26]
THA GOLA MÉJEATH THEN THA NITHER LÉGA
FON HJARA HELPAR AND SALT.ÁTHUM VPPA VSA FJELDUM SKRÍWA
MITH.ET BLOD THÀT UT HJARA WNDUM DRJUPTH

[201/19]
THÀT FOLK WÉRMITH HI WITH THA SALT.ÁTHUM THERA GOLUM KÀMPED HÉDE
HÉD.ER UT.A SAXANA.MARKUM LVKTH
MITH LOFTE FON GRÁTE HÉRA.RÁVE ÀND BUT

Posted 26 June 2013 - 10:27 AM
Notice that only in the three fragments from the text about Black Adel, the plural is spelled SALT.ÁTHUM.

In the other (older) ones it is SALT.ÁTHA / SALT.ATHA (singular: SALT.ÁTHE is used only once in fragment 1.2).

Posted 02 July 2013 - 04:41 PM
View PostAbramelin, on 02 July 2013 - 12:53 AM, said:
And we all know that is bs.

Speak for yourself. Puzzler and I see it.
You must be the only one who does not get it.

BUKJA is diminutive from BUK.

ONW (Oudnederlands Woordenboek, Olddutch dictionary):
http://gtb.inl.nl/iW...&lemmodern=buik

būk - Modern lemma: buik
Moederschoot, baarmoeder, buik
 => (mothers-) womb, uterus, belly

MNW (Middelnederlands Woordenboek, Middledutch dictionary):
http://gtb.inl.nl/iW...&lemmodern=buik

BUUC - Varianten: buyc, buke, buc - Modern lemma: buik
Buik, in onze bet., in 't mnl. ook balch geheeten; ook in die van moederlijf
 => can mean mothers body

Conlusion: BUKJA for young woman is plausible, as it already was from the context.

Posted 05 August 2013 - 07:00 PM
View PostVan Gorp 03 August 2013 - 09:52 AM:
There was perpetual calm,
and the damp mist hung like a wet sail over the houses and the marshes."

Wind reston in sina bûdar,
werthrvch rêk aend stom lik sêla boppa hus aend polon stand".

As for the meteorological aspects of your posts, I have nothing to say, but the translation should be imo:

Wind rested in its 'pockets'(?),
causing smoke/ smell (rook/ reuk) and steam to stand above house and pools like pillars (zuilen).

Posted 06 August 2013 - 07:24 PM
View PostVan Gorp, on 05 August 2013 - 11:42 PM, said:
What about the source of the smoke then?

I'd say that every household would have kept a central fire burning (hearth, haard, hart) for warmth, light and cooking.

Quote
In that sense do you identify the clouds which hide the sun with the same smoke pilars or 2 different 'clouds'?

No, the people will not have made that much fire. I suppose it will have been from volcanoes (dust?).
If I remember correctly, Alewyn wrote much about this and he, being a geologist originally, is more knowledgable on the subject than me.

Posted 12 August 2013 - 09:21 PM
Remarkable:

One of the main themes in the OLB is that the Fryas (people or 'children' of Frya) were strictly forbidden to have slaves.
(Tex Fryas: never take another's freedom and never give up your own.)
Yet, on page 142 (Ottema & Sandbach, p.193), folkmother Gosa Makonta states (ca. 3rd century BCE):

FON THRJU WORDA SKILUN VSA AFTERKVMANDE AN HJARA LJUDA AND SLAVONA 
THA BITHJUTNESSE LÉRA. HJA SEND. MÉNA LJAVDA . FRYHÉD AND RJUCHT.

English:
Of three words our descendants shall teach their people and slaves 
the meaning: they are universal love, freedom, and justice (right).

Dutch:
Van drie woorden zullen onze nakomelingen aan hun lieden en slaven 
de betekenis leren. Zij zijn algemene liefde, vrijheid en recht.

Posted 17 August 2013 - 08:50 AM
View PostKnul, on 15 August 2013 - 10:25 PM, said:
Excellent ! It must be a slip of the tongue.

Similarly bizarre is the following contradiction in "Tex Fryas" (page 12 in original):

7. ALLERA MANNALIK THÉR EN OTHER FON SINE FRYDOM BIRAW 
AL WÉRE THENE ORE HIM SKELDECH 
MOT IK ANDA BARN.TAM ÉNER SLAFINE FARA LÉTA. 

7. Alleman die een ander van zijn vrijheid berooft, 
al was de ander hem schuldig, 
die moet ik aan de kinderleiband van een slavin laten voeren. 

7. Anyone who would rob another of his freedom, 
even if the other is his debtor,  
I must lead him on a child's leash of a slavegirl.

How can they even have slave-leashes if they are strictly forbidden to have slaves?!
What else is leading someone on a leash than robbing his freedom?!

I am preparing a post about some of the things I don't like about the content of the OLB and Fryan 'philosophy' - the reasons (in m y opinion) why the culture gradually degenerated and fell apart.

I believe Fàsta made up at least part of Tex Fryas, most obviously #12 in which she is being recommended to be chosen as Mother of honor:

12. VPPA MINRE FAM FASTA HAV IK MIN HAP FASTEGTH. 
THÉRVMBE MOST J HJA TO JO ÉRE. MODER NÉMA
FOLGATH J MIN RÉD THAN SKIL HJU NÉMELS MIN FAM BILIWA 
AND ALLA FRANA FAMNA THÉR HJA FOLGJA.
THAN SKIL THJU FODDIK NAMER UTGA 
THÉR IK FAR JO VPSTOKEN HAV. 

12. Op mijn fam Fasta heb ik al mijn hoop gevestigd. 
Daarom moet u haar tot uw eremoeder nemen
Volgt u mijn raad, dan zal zij namaals mijn fam blijven 
en alle vrone fammen die haar volgen. 
Dan zal de foddik nimmer uitgaan, 
die ik voor u opgestoken heb. 

12. Upon my fam Fasta I have placed all my hopes. 
Therefore you must take her as your mother-of-honor
If you follow my advice, she will hereafter remain my fam, 
and all dedicated fams who follow her. 
Then the foddik which I have lighted for you,
will never be extinguished. 

Yeah right.
The OLB is full of criticism of priests and priesthoods, but Fàsta herself behaved like a typical priest, deifying Frya and suggesting that she (Fàsta) spoke on her (Frya's) behalf.

### discussion about the Red Cliff / Rode Klif seperately posted on Fryskednis ###

Posted 22 August 2013 - 05:42 PM
View PostKnul, on 22 August 2013 - 05:33 AM, said:
About the word barntam = kindertuig (eig. -toom) , Eng. tame, bridle.

Yes, that's what I said:
View Postgestur, on 17 August 2013 - 08:50 AM, said:
...kinderleiband van een slavin ...
... child's leash of a slavegirl ...
Posted 22 August 2013 - 05:47 PM
View PostKnul, on 22 August 2013 - 05:56 AM, said:
I would prefer to translate mena ljavda = vaderlandsliefde (Eng. patriotism), not universal love or algemene liefde.

MENA = algemene

Compare the following fragments:
BURG AND MENA ÉWA
THENE MÉNA FJAND TO BIKAMPANE
VPPA ÉNE MÉNA ACHT
HÉDE MAN ÉNE MÉNA ACHT BILIDSEN
VPPA RÉD THÉRE MODER AND BY MÉNA WILLA
... etcetera.

Posted 22 August 2013 - 05:55 PM
View PostKnul, on 22 August 2013 - 06:30 AM, said:
I don't like your etymology of Toth and Diotima.  Dio-tima < Theos, Deus = God and timeoo - to fear, in Dutch de godvrezende.

I do.

dioti = thjude (from thjud = people, folk and/or duiden, to explain; german: deuten)
ma = màm (mother, dutch: ma)

=> duide-ma  (iemand die wijsheid doorgeeft, uitlegt, duidt) or volks-ma (folk-mother)

Your explanation is plausible too.
The name may have been ambiguous; dubbelzinnig (those names are the best).

Posted 23 August 2013 - 10:53 AM
View PostKnul, on 22 August 2013 - 06:30 AM, said:
... Diotima... de godvrezende.

Have you read the dialogue between the seeress (visionary, teacher of wisdom) Diotima and Socrates in Plato's Symposium?

The term god-fearing does not describe her at all.
Just like in OLB, where some important people got a nickname that described them(*), I think that was common in the old days.

(*) examples:
NY-HEL-LÉNJA = MIN-ERVA
KÀLTA = SÍRHÉD
SWARTE ADEL = ÁSKAR
JES-US = FO = KRIS-EN = BÜDA

Earlier it was suggested that the etymology of the name Socrates (in Arab Suqrat), might be SOK-RAT (seek reason/ counsil, advise - in other words seek wisdom => wijsbegeerte, philosophy).

View PostOtharus, on 15 October 2012 - 09:57 PM, said:
Posted Image

Posted Image


If that is true, than it is also not strange to look for an oldfrisian explanation of the name of his teacher, Διοτίμα.

Posted 27 August 2013 - 12:00 PM
View PostKnul, on 27 August 2013 - 03:57 AM, said:
According to Wikipedia the name Diotima means "honoured by Zeus". ...

I understand the first part:

Dio = theos/ θεός (greek) = deus (latin) = dieu (french) = zeus

I suggest a relation to oldfrisian/ oldgerman words:

Hettema Oldfrisian dictionary, 1832:
theod, thiad = deit, volk
thiade, tiade, thiote, deit = volk

etymologiebank.nl/duiden:
Quote
duiden ww. ‘uitleggen, vertalen; betekenen’
Mnl. *duden ‘betekenen’ [...], dieden ‘betekenen’ [...], duden ‘uitleggen’ [...]
...
Het woord wordt vaak in verband gebracht met pgm. *þeuðō- ‘volk’, zie &rarr; diets, en zou dan letterlijk moeten betekenen ‘voor het volk verklaren, vertalen, duidelijk maken’.
Semantisch gezien kan het echter geen afleiding van dat woord zijn.
Daarom is vermoedelijk een ander woord secundair op *þeuðō- betrokken;
dat zou het bn. *þeuþa- ‘goed’ kunnen zijn (waaruit mnl. ge-diede ‘voorkomend, welwillend’).
Het werkwoord zal dan ‘goed, begrijpelijk maken’ betekenen. Zie ook &rarr; beduiden, &rarr; duidelijk.
Mnd. düden; ohd. diuten ‘verklaren, betekenen, vertalen’ (nhd. deuten);
ofri. bi-thiuda ‘verklaren’ (nfri. tsjutte);
oe. ge-ðiodan ‘vertalen’;
on. þýða ‘uitleggen, betekenen’ (nzw. tyda ‘duiden’);
< pgm. *þeuþjan- ‘begrijpelijk maken’, bij pgm. *þeuþa- ‘goed’ (EWgP 621-23).
Bij pgm. *þeuþa- ook os. githiudo ‘gepast’ en mnd. dieden ‘helpen’;
oe. geþiede ‘goed, deugdzaam’ en geþiedan ‘deelnemen; helpen’;
on. þýðr ‘vriendelijk’;
got. þiuþ ‘goed’.
De homonymie met vormen die horen bij pgm. *þeuðō- ‘volk’ maakt de verdere etymologie moeilijk.
Misschien is er verband met pie. *teu- ‘vriendelijk bezien’ (IEW 1079-80).

When thiuth, theutha = good, it can easily imagined that it was used as "god" too, since good and god were also originally the same word.

I do not see how -tima or -ima would mean " honoured by".

Posted 30 August 2013 - 04:47 PM
View PostAbramelin, on 30 August 2013 - 01:26 AM, said:
I hope those who speak and understand Dutch are willing to translate the important parts of this text from Overwijn's book.

Afbeelding van een Punische of Phoinikische vaas, als tezamen met enige andere gevonden bij de werkzaamheden aan de Afsluitdijk door het Vliemeer (Zuider Zee) door de heer O.Bosker te Hippolytushoef op Wieringen.

Picture of a Punic or Phoenician vase, as found with some other when the 'Afsluitdijk' (Enclosure Dam) was made in the 'Vliemeer' (Zuiderzee) by mr. Bosker from Hyppolytushoef, Wieringen.

De suggestie, die van deze vondsten uitging, heeft de heer Bosker aangegrepen; hij geraakte geheel in de Akkadisfeer en maakte vele Babylonische tekeningen.

[...]

De vazen worden op ten minste 2000 v.Chr. gesteld. Dit is dan geschied door deskundigen, die van het O.L.B. geen weet hebben. Dit komt dus geheel overeen met het voorgaande.

The vases are dated to at least 2000 BCE. This was done by specialists who don't know OLB. [...]

Volgens het OLB klopt dit echter óók en is de collectie van de heer Bosker (een zevental vazen) afkomstig van de Punische (en ook Jonische) kooplieden, die, zoals het OLB verhaalt met zeven schepen per jaar in ons Vliemeer mochten komen, om handel te drijven in alle mogelijke waren.

According to OLB this makes sense; Mr. Boskers collection (seven vases) would be coming from Punic (and Ionian) merchants who, as described in OLB, were allowed into our Vliemeer with seven ships each year, to trade all sorts of goods.

Hiervoor was uitdrukkelijk aangewezen alléén de Wieringer markt, die "to.let märk" heette, d.i. Toelaatmarkt. De vaas is met schelpen begroeid, als gevolg van het lange verblijf onder water.

For this only the market on Wieringen was explicitly designated, which was named "to.let märk", that is 'allowed-market'. Shells had grown on the vase, as a result of its long stay underwater.

Men pleegt de stijl aan te duiden met "Syrisch", wat niets afdoet aan het feit, dat het een Phoinikische vaas is, aangezien de Phoinikiërs Syrië bezetten.

The style is usually termed "Syrian", which doesn't mean it's not a Phoenician vase, as Syra was Phoenician territory.

Ongetwijfeld moet de "Waraburcht", die in het OLB als 'museum' wordt beschreven en in Hensbroek (bij Ouddorp W.Friesland) stond, veel van dit materiaal hebben bevat. Op blz. 62-63 wordt dit in het OLB beschreven.

[...]

Te Terwinselen bij Heerlen (Limb.) werden door de mijnwerker Th.van Zon, Phoinikische sierstenen, scherven enz. gevonden, waarop zelfs Phoinikische letters voorkomen.

At Terwinselen near Heerlen (Limburg), miner mr. Van Zon found Phoenician jewels, shards etc., that had Phoenician letters on them.

Posted 12 September 2013 - 05:43 PM
In the language of the OLB, there are two different words that are both translated as "mother": 

1. MODER (or MODAR), and
2. MÀM (or MEM)

MODER is almost exclusively used to refer to:

1. the three mythological earth-mothers, Lyda, Finda and Frya, or
2. chosen folk-mothers, so-called 'mothers' of the people

MÀM is the regular word for what we call 'mother'; a woman with children.
In the current Frisian dialects, this is still the word for 'mother', while in Dutch, this is 'moeder' (German: 'mutter').

On page 191, line 19 (Sandbach p.231), the old seeress Rika severely judges the use of the term MODER where it should be MÀM, according to tradition:

[191/19] rika
ÁK MOT IK MY VR FÉLO JOWER WIVA BIKLÁGJA [...]
VMBE THÀT HJA BERN BÉRED HÀVE 
LÉTATH HJA HJARA SELVA MODAR HÉTA [...]
I must also complain about many of your wives [...]
Because they have borne children
they let themselves be named 'modar' [...]

Rika's speech is aimed at the descendants of Friso and his people, who arrived in Fryasland ca. 300 BCE.
Only two authors have used the term MODER where it should have been MÀM, according to Rika:

1. Ljudgert, about Friso's wife (before they sailed to Fryasland), on page 126 (Sandbach p. 173):

THJU MODER NE THVRADE HJRA JOI NAVT WACHTJA [...]
ANDA MODER SAND HI EN BUDA GOLD
The mother dared not wait for her 'joy' [...]
To the mother he sent a bag of gold

2. Hidde, in the letter to his son Okke, dated 1256 CE (first unnumbered page):

VRLÉDEN JÉR HÀB IK THAM UT.ER FLOD HRED 
TOLIK MITH THI ÀND THINRA MODER

Last year I have saved them from the flood
together with you and your mother

This second fragment is noteworthy, because it means that Hidde, having copied the whole manuscript, still uses the term MODER where it should be MÀM, according to tradition. It means that he either had not read it carefully, or did not take this rule very seriously.

It is especially significant, because even a modern Frisian (speaking a Frisian dialect) would more likely say 'mem', rather than 'moeder'.

15 september:
My post was to illustrate how much gets lost in any translation, specially the english one by Sandbach.
Frisians don't say mother, moder, moeder or mutter: mem is the normal word, it's not informal.

The most significant thing that I have learnt from my study of the OLB, is that our languages have degenerated, not evolved.

And with that, our consciousness.

Posted 15 September 2013 - 04:15 PM
View PostKnul, on 15 September 2013 - 02:49 PM, said:
Though Rika is an ordinary woman, she speaks like a society person.

An "ALD-FAM" is not an ordinary "old woman".
The word FAM has been translated as "burchtmaagd", "priestess" or "matron". There is no good word to translate it, but anyway they were second in hierarchy after the folk- and burch-mothers. They had a good education and were trained to advise the common people.

Ottema p.27:
"Bijaldien iemand raad begeert van de Moeder, of van eene burgtmaagd, dan moet hij zich melden bij den schrijver."

ALD-FAM = former seeress, burgmaiden, matron, 'priestess'. If the Mothers were considered the wisest women, the Famna would be second wisest, an old experienced one even more than a young one.

18 september:
In the Frisian dialects, "mem" is the word for how we use "mother" (it's not informal, but the normal word):

min mem is t'huus = my mother is (at) home

ik ha/hew din/jow mem red = i have saved your mother

The whole point was, that if Hidde would have taken the writings of his ancestors (and the preservation of the ancient language) seriously, he would not have used the word MODER, but MEM, as the term MODER - according to RIKA - was a "GLORNOMA" (honorary title) reserved for FRYA and the folk- and burgmothers.

Language is degenerated, because it is no longer clear what the original meaning of words is, causing confusion allover:
The same word can have (slightly) different meanings in different (but similar) languages.

Sometimes (church-) authorities have even deliberately changed the meaning of words, e.g. to demonise things that were once sacred (example: HEL - light), or to disconnect peoples from their cultural heritage (e.g. Mittwoch, the german word for wednesday - german is the only N-european language where this weekday-name no longer refers to Odin/ Wodin/ Mercury).

Friesch Woordenboek A-H (1896) Dijkstra & Buitenrust Hettema
Posted Image

19 september: OK.

Not because it is easy, but because it is impossible,
I will herewith give a translation of Rika's letter that hopes to finally makes the point clear that she was trying to make, about the unjust use of the terms FÉDER (feeder, father) instead of TAT (dad) and MODER (mooder, mother) instead of MAM.

My version is English-ish with some terms in the original language in capitals.
To compare, Sandbach's version is also given in italic script.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ original manuscript page 189-192, Sandbach page 228-233.

BRÉF FON RIKA THJU ALD.FAM.
VPSÉID TO STAVEREN BY.T JOL.FÉRSTE.


Letter from Rika the elder-FAM (seeress, matron), 
read at Staveren at the JOL-feast

Letter of Rika the Oudmaagd, read at Staveren at the Juul Feast.

JY ALLE HWAM HIS ÉTHLA MITH FRISO HIR KÉMON.
MIN ÉR.BIDNESSE TO JO.
ALSA JY MÉNE SEND JY VNSKELDICH AN OFGODJE.
THÉR NIL IK JVD NAVT VR SPRÉKA.
MEN JVD WIL IK JO VPPEN LEK WISA
THAT FÉ BÉTRE SI. ~


You all whose forefathers came here with Friso,
my honour-offering to you. 
You think you are not guilty of idolatry. 
I will not speak about that now, 
but today I will point out a failing 
that is few better.

My greeting to all of you whose forefathers came here with Friso. According to what you say, you are not guilty of idolatry. I will not speak about that now, but will at once mention a failing which is very little better.

JY WÉTATH JEFTHA JY NÉTATH NAVT.
HO WR.ALDA THUSAND GLOR.NOMA HETH.
THACH THAT WÉTHATH JY ALLE.
THAT HY WARTH AL.FÉDER HÉTEN.
UT ÉRSÉKE THAT ALLES IN UT IM WARTH AND WAXTH
TO FÉDING SINRA SKEPSELA.

You know, or you do not know, 

how Wralda has a thousand glorynames. 
You all do know, however, 
that he is named AL-FÉDER (all-feeder, universal provider), 
because that all becomes and grows from him 
for the FÉDING (feeding, sustenance) of his creatures.

You know, or you do not know, how many titles Wr-alda has; but you all know that he is named universal provider, because that everything comes and proceeds from him for the sustenance of his creatures.

T.IS WÉR THAT JRTHA
WARTH BIHWILA AK AL.FÉDSTRE HÉTEN.
THRVCHDAM HJU ALLE FRUCHD AND NOCHTA BÉRTH
HWERMITHA MANNISK AND DJAR HJARA SELVA FÉDE.
THACH NE SKOLDE HJU NÉNE FRUCHD NER NOCHT NAVT NE BÉRA
BIDAM WRALDA HJA NÉNE KREFTA NE JEF.


It is true that JRTHA (Earth) 
is also sometimes named AL-FÉDSTRE (all-feederess), 
because she brings forth all the FRUCHD (fruits, pleasures) and NOCHTA (nuts/ grains, joys) 
with which men and animals FÉDE (feed) themselves; 
but she would not bear any FRUCHD nor NOCHT 
when Wralda gave her no powers.

It is true that Irtha is named sometimes the feeder of all, because she brings forth all the fruits and grains on which men and beasts are fed; but she would not bear any fruit or grain unless Wr-alda gave her the power.

AK WIVA THER HJARA BERN MAMA LÉTA AN HJARA BROSTA
WERTHAT FÉDSTRA HÉTEN.
THA NE JÉF WR.ALDA THÉR NÉN MELOK IN
SA NE SKOLDON THA BERN THÉR NÉNE BATE BY FINDA.
SA THAT BI SLOT FON REKNONG
WR.ALDA ALLÉNA FÉDER BILIWET. ~


Also wives who let their children MAMA (breastfeed) on their breasts 
are named FÉDSTRA (feederesses, fosters, nurses), 
but if Wralda gave no milk there-in, 
then the children would find no benefit there-by; 
so that, by end of counting, 
Wralda alone stays FÉDER (feeder).

Women who nourish their children at their breasts are called nurses, but if Wr-alda did not give them milk the children would find no advantage; so that, in short, Wr-alda really is the nourisher.

THAT JRTHA BYHWILA WARTH AL.FÉDSTRE HETEN
AND ÉNE MAM FÉDSTRE
KAN JETA THRVCH.NE WENDE.
MEN THAT.NE MAN HIM LÉT FÉDER HÉTE
VMBE THAT.ER TAT SI.
THAT STRID WITH.AJEN ALLE {190} RÉDNUM.


That JRTHA (Earth) sometimes is named AL-FÉDSTRE (all-feederess), 
and a MAM (breastfeeding mama) FÉDSTRE (feederess),
can yet go through a curve (is acceptable); 
but that a man has himself be named FÉDER (feeder, father), 
because he is a TAT (dad, father), 
that struggles with all reason.

That Irtha should be called the universal nourisher, and that a mother should be called a feeder, one can understand, figuratively speaking; but that a father should be called a feeder, because he is a father, goes against all reason.

THA IK WÉT WANAT THJUS DWÉSHÉD WÉI KVMTH.
HARK HIR. SE KVMTH FON VSA LÉTHA.
AND SAHWERSA THI FOLGATH WERTHE
SA SKILUN JY THÉRTHRVCH SLAVONA WERTHA
TO SMERT FON FRYA
AND JOWE HAG.MOD TO.NE STRAF. ~


But I know whence this folly comes. 
Hear here. It comes from our enemies; 
and if this is followed, 
then you shall become slaves there-through (because of it), 
to the sorrow of Frya 
and to the punishment of your HAG-MOD (high-mood, haughtiness, pride). 

Now I know whence all this folly comes. Listen to me. It comes from our enemies; and if this is followed up you will become slaves, to the sorrow of Frya and to the punishment of your pride.

IK SKIL JO MELDA
HO T. BI THA SLAVONA FOLKAR TO GVNGEN IS.
THÉR AFTER MÉI JY LÉRA. ~
THA POPPA KANINGGAR
THAM NÉI WILKÉR LÉVA
STÉKATH WRALDA NÉI THÉRE KRONE.
UT NID THAT WR.ALDA AL.FÉDER HÉT.
SA WILDON HJA FÉDRUM THÉRA FOLKAR HÉTA. ~


I will tell you 
how it went with the SLAVONA FOLKAR (slave people); 
from that you may learn.
The foreign kings, 
who live  by (their own) will-choice, 
desire Wralda's crown. 
From envy that Wralda is named the AL-FÉDER (all-feeder, all-father), 
they wish to be named FÉDRUM (feeders, fathers) of the FOLKAR (peoples).

I will tell you what happened to the slave people; from that you may take warning. The foreign kings, who follow their own will, place Wr-alda below the crown. From envy that Wr-alda is called the universal father, they wish also to be called fathers of the people.

NW WÉT ALLERA MANNALIK
THAT.NE KÉNING NAVT OVIR.NE WAXDOM NE WELTH
AND THAT.IM SIN FÉDING
THRVCH THAT FOLK BROCHT WARTH. ~
MEN THACH WILDON HJA FVLHERDJA
BY HJARA FORMÉTENHÉD. ~


Now, all men (everybody) knows 
that a king does not rule over WAXDOM (the productiveness of the earth); 
and that his FÉDING (food, feeding) 
is brought to him by the FOLK (people). 
But still they wanted to persist 
in their arrogance.

Now, everybody knows that kings do not regulate the productiveness of the earth; and that they have their sustenance by means of the people, but still they will persist in their arrogance.

TILTHJU HJA TO.RA DOL KVMA MACHTE
ALSA HAVON HJA THET FORMA NAVT FVLDÉN WÉST
MITH THA FRYA JEFTA
MEN HAVON HJA THAT FOLK ÉNE TINS VPLÉID.
FORI THENE SKAT THAM THÉROF KÉM
HÉRADON HJA VRLANDISKA SALT.ATHA .
THAM HJA IN.OM HJARA HOVA LÉIDON.


In order to come to their goal 
they have from the beginning not been satisfied 
with the free (voluntary) gifts, 
but imposed a tax upon the FOLK (people). 
With the treasure that came there-of,
they hired overlandish (foreign) SALT.ATHA (salt-allies, soldiers), 
whom they retained about their courts. 

In order to attain their object they were not satisfied from the beginning with free gifts, but imposed a tax upon the people. With the tax thus raised they hired foreign soldiers, whom they retained about their courts.

FORTH NAMON HJA ALSA FÉLO WIVA AS.RA LUSTE.
AND THA LITHIGA FORSTA AND HÉRA DÉDON AL.ÉN. ~
AS TWIST AND TVISPALT AFTERNÉI 

INNA HUSHALDNE GLUPTE
AND THÉRVR KLACHTA KÉMON
THA HAVON HJA SÉID.


Furthermore they took as many wives as they lusted, 
and the little FORSTA (kings, firsts) and HÉRA (lords, gentry) did the same (all one).
When afterwards quarrels and disputes 
sneaked in the households, 
and complaints came of it, 
then they have said:

Afterwards they took as many wives as they pleased, and the smaller princes and gentry did the same. When, in consequence, quarrels and disputes arose in the households, and complaints were made about it, they said

JAHWEDER MAN IS THENE FÉDER FON SIN HUSHALDEN
THÉRVMBE SKIL.ER AK BAS AND RJUCHTER {191} OVIR WÉSA.
THA KÉM WIL.KÉR
AND ÉVIN AS THAM MITHA MANNUM INOVIR THA HUSHALDNE WELDE
GVNG.ER MITH THA KANINGGAR INOVIR HJARA STAT AND FOLKAR DVAN.


Every man is the FÉDER (feeder, father) of his household; 
therefore he shall also be master and judge over it. 
Thus came WIL-KÉR (will-choice, arbitrariness), 
and just like it ruled with the men over the households, 
it went and do with the kings over their state and FOLKAR (people). 

every man is the father (feeder) of his household, therefore he shall be master and judge over it. Thus arose arbitrariness, and as the men ruled over their households the kings would do over their people.

THA THA KANINGGAR ET ALSA WID BROCHT HÉDE
THAT HJA FÉDERUM THÉRA FOLKAR HÉTE
THA GVNGON HJA TO AND LÉTON BYLDON AFTER HJARA DANTNE MAKJA.
THISSA BYLDON LÉTON HJA INNA THA CHERKA STALLA
NÉST THA BYLDON THÉRA DROCHTNE
AND THI JENA THAM THÉR NAVT FAR BUGJA NILDE
WARTH OM BROCHT JEFTHA AN KÉDNE DÉN. ~


When the kings had brought it so wide (far), 
that they were named FÉDERUM (feeders, fathers) of the FOLKAR (people), 
then they went and had statues made of their likeness. 
They had these statues placed in the churches 
beside the statues of the (monstrous) idols, 
and those who would not bow down to them 
were either killed or put in chains. 

When the kings had accomplished that, they should be called fathers of the people, they had statues of themselves made, and erected in the churches beside the statues of the idols, and those who would not bow down to them were either killed or put in chains.

JOW ÉTHLA AND THA TWISK.LANDAR
HAVON MITH.A POPPA FORSTA OMME GVNGEN
DANA HAVON HJA THJUSE DWÉSHÉD LÉRED.
THA NAVT ALLÉNA THAT SVME JOWER MAN
HJARA SELVA SKELDICH MAKJA AN GLOR.NOMA RAW.
AK MOT IK MY VR FÉLO JOWER WIVA BIKLAGJA.


Your forefathers and the Twisklanders 
have gone around with the foreign (strange) kings.
From them they have learned this folly. 
But it is not only that some of your men 
make themselves guilty of robbing GLOR.NOMA (glory-names, honorary titles).
I must also complain about many of your wives.

Your forefathers and the Twisklanders had intercourse with the kings, and learned these follies from them. But it is not only that some of your men have been guilty of stealing titles, I have also much to complain of against your wives.

WERTHAT BY JO MAN FVNDEN
THAM MITH WRALDA AN ÉN LIN WILLE
THÉR WERTHAT BY JO WIVA FVNDEN
THÉR ET MITH FRYA WILLE.
VMBE THAT HJA BERN BÉRED HAVE
LÉTATH HJA HJARA SELVA MODAR HÉTA.


Like men are found among you
who want to be on one level (line) with Wralda, 
also wives are found among you 
who want the same with Frya. 
Because they have borne BERN (children), 
they have themselves be named MODAR ('Mooder', 'Mother'; an honorary title);

If there are men among you who wish to put themselves on a level with Wr-alda, there are also women who wish to consider themselves equals of Frya. Because they have borne children, they call themselves mothers;

THA HJA VRJETTATH THAT FRYA BERN BÉRDE
SVNDER JENGONG ÉNIS MAN.
JA. NAVT ALLÉNA THAT HJA FRYA AND THA ÉRE.MODAR
FON HJARA GLOR.RIKA NOMA BIRAWA WILLE
HWÉRAN HJA TACH NAVT NAKA NE MUGE.
HJA DVATH AL.ÉN
MITH.A GLOR.NOMA FON HJARA NÉSTA.


But they forget that Frya bore children 
without ingoing of a man. 
Yes, not only that they want to rob Frya and the ÉRE.MODAR (honorary Mothers) 
of their glory-rich names,
with whom they indeed cannot be equal, 
but they do the same (all-one)
with the glory-names of their NÉSTA (nexts, neighbours). 

but they forget that Frya bore children without having intercourse with a man. Yes, they not only have desired to rob Frya and the Eeremoeders of their honourable title (with whom they cannot put themselves upon an equality), but they do the same with the honourable titles of their fellow-creatures.

THÉR {192} SEND WIVA
THÉR HJARA SELVA LÉTATH FROWA HÉTA
AFSKÉN HJA WÉTE THAT THJUSE NOME
ALLÉNA TO FORSTA WIVA HÉRETH.
AK LÉTATH HJA HJARA TOGHATERA FAMNA HÉTA
VNTANKIS HJA WÉTE
THAT NÉNE MANGÉRT ALSA HÉTA NE MÉI.
WARA HJU TO ÉNE BURCH HÉRTH. ~


There are wives 
who have themselves be named FROWA (ladies), 
although they know that this name
only belongs to wives of FORSTA (firsts, chiefs, kings). 
They also let their daughters be called FAMNA, 
although they know 
that no MANGÉRT ('man-desire', girl) may be so named 
unless she belongs to a BURCH (citadel).

There are women who allow themselves to be called ladies, although they know that that only belongs to the wives of princes. They also let their daughters be called maagden, although they know that no young girls are so called unless. they belong to a citadel.

JY ALLE WANATH
THAT JY THRVCH THAT NOMRAWA BÉTRE WERTHE
THACH JY VRJETTATH
THAT NID THÉR AN KLIWET
AND THAT ELK KWAD SINE TUCHT.RODE SÉJATH.
KÉRATH JY NAVT NE WITHER
SA SKIL TID THÉR WAXDOM AN JÉVA.
ALSA STÉRIK THAT MAN ET ENDE THÉR OF NAVT BISJA NE MÉI.


You all have the delusion
that you become better through this name-robbng, 
but you forget 
that jealousy clings to it, 
and that every wrong sows the seed of its own discipline-rod (birch). 
If you do not turn back,
then time shall give growth to it, 
so strong that one cannot foresee the end there-of. 

You all fancy that you are the better for this name-stealing, but you forget that jealousy clings to it, and that every wrong sows the seed of its own rod. If you do not alter your course, in time it will grow so strong that you cannot see what will be the end.

JOW AFTER KVMANDA SKILUN THÉRMITH FÉTARATH WERTHA.
HJA NE SKILUN NAVT NE BIGRIPA
HWANAT THI SLAGA WÉI KVME.
MEN AFSKÉN JY THA FAMNA NÉNE BURGA BVWE
AND AN LOT VRLÉTE
THACH SKILUN THÉR BILIWA.


Your aftercoming (descendants) shall be flogged with it.
They will not understand
whence the strikes come. 
But although you do not build BURGA (citadels) for the FAMNA (seeresses, matrons) 
and leave them to fate, 
there will still remain some.

Your descendants will be flogged by it, and will not know whence the stripes come. But although you do not build citadels for the maidens and leave them to their fate, there will still remain some

HJA SKILUN FONUT WALD AND HOLUM KVMA.
HJA SKILUN JOW AFTER KVMANDE BIWISA.
THAT JY THÉR WILLENS SKILDECH AN SEND.
THAN SKIL MAN JO VRDEMA.
JOW SKINA SKILUN VRFÉRTH FON UT.A GRÉVUM RISA.


They shall come out of woods and HOLUM (holes, caves).
They shall prove your descendants 
that you are willingly (deliberately) guilty of it. 
Then one shall damn you. 
Your SKINA (shines, ghosts) shall rise frightened out of their graves.

who will come out of woods and caves, and will prove to your descendants that you have by your disorderliness been the cause of it. Then you will be damned. Your ghosts will rise frightened out of their graves.

HJA SKILUN WR.ALDA. HJA SKILUN FRYA AND HJRA FAMNA ANHROPA
THA NIMMAN SKIL.ER AWET AN BÉTRA NE MUGE
BIFARA THAT JOL INOP EN ORE HLAP.HRING TRÉTH.
MEN THAT SKIL ÉRIST BÉRA
AS THRÉ-THUSAND JÉR VR.HLAPEN SEND.
AFTER THISSE ÉW. ~
ENDE FON RIKA.S BRÉF.


They shall call upon Wralda, Frya, and her FAMNA (matrons, maidens), 
but no man will be able to better anything about it
before the JOL enters upon another loop-ring.
But that will only happen
when three thousand years have passed
after this century.
End of Rika’s letter.

They will call upon Wr-alda, Frya, and her maidens, but they shall receive no succour before the Juul shall enter upon a pew circuit, and that will only be three thousand years after this century. THE END OF RIKA'S LETTER.

Posted 21 September 2013 - 03:22 PM
Hello Mario,
That's ok, I had not thought any bad of it.
I thought you were referring to the Bock Saga, which I also think is very interesting.
But as I understood it, that procreation system would have been before the Ice Age.
The Fryans may have been a much later subgroup.
The OLB language is very similar to Ior's Root-language.
Having learnt a bit from that sound system before I started studying the OLB, made it easier to understand the Fryan language.
I want to learn more from the Scandinavian dialects and have a plan to travel around there next spring and summer.
Regards, g.

Posted 24-09 2013, 12:48 PM
View Postgestur, on 31 March 2013 - 05:53 PM, said:
The "oôt" in my signatury (in a proverb that I read in a westfrisian dictionary) appearantly is a virtually indestructable weed.
Would make sense if "od" would mean life-force, would it not?

In an older Westfrisian dictionary, I recently found the same proverb and there it said that "oôt" is "avena fatua", known in english as "common wild oat"...
Posted Image
(German: Flug- oder Wind-Hafer)

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