Spelling variety ~ Quantitative OLB-analysis

Towards a quantitative analysis of the OLB

If OLB is authentic, it is a composition of texts by various authors, from different times and different regions.
One would expect a variety of writing style and spelling between different parts of the book.

I am testing this hypothesis and present my first results here (more detailed data available):


1. SEND / SIND = present plural of verb 'to be'
sind - german
zijn - dutch
are - english
er - danish, norwegian
är - swedish
binne - frisian

___________________________________SEND __SIND______%
text before 'Ljudgert's Letter' . . 172 . . .8 . . 4%
Ljudgert's Letter (p.163-168) . . . . 0 . . 28 . 100%
text after 'Ljudgert's Letter . . . .22 . . .2 . .10%
-----------------------------------------------------
TOTAL . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 194 . . 38 . .16%


2. BERN / BÀRN = child or children
bern (s.), bern (pl.) - frisian
barn, barn - swedish, norwegian
barn, børn - danish, icelandic
kind, kinder - german
kind, kinderen - dutch
child, children - english

__________________________________BERN___BÀRN______%
text before 'Jon's History'. . . . . 5 . . 31 . .86%
from Jon onwards (p.65). . . . . . .74 . . .1 . . 1%
----------------------------------------------------
TOTAL. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .79 . . 32 . .29%


3. KÀNING (incl. 1x KÁNING) / KENING or KÉNING = king
kening - frisian
koning - dutch
könig - german
konge - danish, norwegian
kung - swedish
king - english

____________________________KENING___KANING________%
text before 'Wodin'. . . . . . .33. . . . 0 . . . 0%
Wodin to Jon (p.53-71) . . . . . 0 . . . 14 . . 100%
Jon to Gosa (p.72-142) . . . . .24 . . . .0 . . . 0%
Friso to Beden (p.144-168) . . . 0 . . . .8 . . 100%
Rika (p.189-192) . . . . . . . . 1 . . . .3 . . .75%
Black Adel (p.195-210) . . . . . 6 . . . .6 . . .50%
----------------------------------------------------
TOTAL. . . . . . . . . . . . . .64 . . . 31 . . .33%


4. NW / NV = now
nu - dutch, danish, swedish
nú - icelandic
nou - (west-) frisian
now - english
nun - german
nå - norwegian
nunc - latin

_______________________________NW___NV______%
text before 'Nyhallenja' . . . .9 . .0 . . 0%
Nyhallenja (p.33-39) . . . . . .1 . .3 . .75%
Minno to Tunis (p.39-61) . . . 18 . .0 . . 0%
Kalta-Minerva-Jon (p.61-71). . .5 . 11 . .69%
Gertmanna to Gosa (p.72-142) . 42 . .0 . . 0%
Konered to Adel (p.143-157). . .6 . .6 . .50%
Gosa's advise (p.157-163). . . .0 . .9 . 100%
Ljudgert to Rika (p.163-192) . .1 . .0 . . 0%
Black Adel (p.195-210) . . . . .3 . .5 . .63%
---------------------------------------------
TOTAL. . . . . . . . . . . . . 85 . 34 . .29%


5. WI / WY = we
wy - frisian
vi - danish, swedish, norwegian
wij, we - dutch
we - english
wir - german
við - icelandic

__________________________________WI___WY_______%
text before 'Forma Skednise' . . . 7 . .0 . . .0%
FS to Fasta (p.6-14) . . . . . . . 0 . .2 . .100%
Ewa to Horninga (p.15-44). . . . .29 . .1 . . .3%
Jolsigns (p.45-46) . . . . . . . . 1 . .2 . . 67%
Arge Tid to Formlere (p.47-99) . .61 . .4 . . .6%
Other Formler (p.100-103). . . . . 0 . .9 . .100%
Trast to Frethorik (p.104-119) . .12 . .1 . . .8%
Ljudgert's diary (p.120-130) . . .43 . .5 . . 10%
text after Ljudgert (p.130-210). .31 . .2 . . .6%
-------------------------------------------------
TOTAL. . . . . . . . . . . . . . 184 . 26 . . 12%


6. MITH / WITH = with
with - english
mit - german
met - dutch
med - danish, swedish, norwegian
með - icelandic
μετά - greek

__________________________________MITH___WITH_______%
text before rights Mother . . . . . 28 . . .0 . . .0%
Rights to Horninga (p.23-44). . . . 27 . . .4 . . 13%
Jolsigns to Tunis (p.45-61) . . . . 26 . . .0 . . .0%
Kalta-Minerva-Jon (p.62-71) . . . . 18 . . .1 . . .5%
Gertmen to Neiskrift (p.72-87). . . 31 . . .1 . . .3%
Adelbrost-Apollanja (p.87-113). . . 44 . . .1 . . .2%
Frethorik (p.113-133) . . . . . . . 54 . . .1 . . .2%
Wiljo (p.133-142) . . . . . . . . . .8 . . .3 . . 27%
Konered (p.143-157) . . . . . . . . 42 . . .1 . . .2%
Gosa to Rika (p.158-192). . . . . . 30 . . .1 . . .3%
Black Adel (p.195-210). . . . . . . 43 . . .3 . . .7%
-----------------------------------------------------
TOTAL . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .351 . . 16 . . .4%


7. BURGUM / BURGA = plural of BURG; borough
burg - german
burcht - dutch
boarch - frisian
borg - danish, swedish, norwegian
borough - english

_______________________________BURGUM___BURGA_______%
text before Grevetmanna . . . . . . 3 . . . 0 . . .0%
Grevetmanna (p.5) . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . 3 . .100%
Fasta to Burg-ewa (p.14-18) . . . . 6 . . . 0 . . .0%
Horninga (p.43-44). . . . . . . . . 0 . . . 1 . .100%
Jolsigns to Wodin (p.45-60) . . . . 2 . . . 0 . . .0%
Kalta-Minerva-Jon (p.62-71) . . . . 1 . . . 1 . . 50%
Denamarka (p.79-87) . . . . . . . . 0 . . . 1 . .100%
Bruno to Gosa (p.91-118). . . . . . 4 . . . 0 . . .0%
Konered (p.143-157) . . . . . . . . 0 . . . 2 . .100%
Gosa's advise (p.158-162) . . . . . 1 . . . 0 . . .0%
Rika (p.189-192). . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . 1 . .100%
Black Adel (p.195-210). . . . . . . 1 . . . 0 . . .0%
-----------------------------------------------------
TOTAL . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .18 . . . 9 . . 33%


8. NIM-MAN + NIM-MER / NIN-MAN + NIN-MER / NÀM-MAN + NÀM-MER = no man (no-one) + never
This includes varieties:
NIM: -màn, -men, -merte, -merthe
NIN: -màn, -nan, -merthe
NÀM: -mar

nimmen - frisian
niemand - dutch, german
ingen - danish, swedish, norwegian

nimmer - dutch, german, frisian
never - english
aldri(g) - danish, swedish, norwegian

______________________________NAM-___NIM-___NIN-
letters Hidde & Liko . . . . . . 0 . . .2 . . .0
p.1-6 introduction . . . . . . . 2 . . .0 . . .0
p.7-14 Forma Skednise. . . . . . 4 . . .1 . . .0
p.15 burglaws. . . . . . . . . . 2 . . .1 . . .0
p.19 common laws . . . . . . . . 0 . . .4 . . .0
p.25-26 Rjuchta Aller Fryas. . . 2 . . .0 . . .0
p.29-42 Minno, 3 Weta. . . . . . 1 . . .8 . . .0
p.47-71 Arge Tid to Jon. . . . . 0 . . .1 . . .7
p.72-87 Gertmanna to Ende. . . . 0 . . .6 . . .0
p.93 Adela's death . . . . . . . 0 . . .0 . . .1
p.97 Formlere. . . . . . . . . . 0 . . .1 . . .0
p.100 Other Formler. . . . . . . 0 . . .0 . . .1
p.103 Trast. . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . .1 . . .1
p.106-117 Apollanja-Frethorik. . 0 . . .2 . . .0
p.120 Ljudgert diary . . . . . . 0 . . .5 . . .1
p.131-163 Brokmanna-Gosa . . . . 0 . . 10 . . .0
p.168 Beden. . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . .2 . . .1
p.189-210 Rika to Black Adel . . 0 . . .3 . . .0
------------------------------------------------
TOTAL . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11 . . 47 . . 12


Many interesting conclusions can be drawn from these data, but for now I will limit myself to presenting them.

I add only this:

If OLB was created in the 19th century, the (main) author must have been extremely knowledgeable, intelligent and creative, to be able to evoke this highly sophisticated'illusion of authenticity' (term used by Jensma). If the intension was simply to make a parody of the Bible and/or Frisian 'Fantastic' history - as Jensma suggests - this effort to add spelling variety in this way was totally out of proportion.

More precisely:
According to Jensma, besides a parody of Frisian historiography, the OLB would be a parody of the  'denominational struggle between orthodoxy and free-thinking modernism which broke out at the end of the 1850s inside the Dutch Reformed church as well as in Dutch society as a whole'.

Fryan syntax & Mother-tongue

Posted 2 June, 12:19 AM

Abramelin, on 01 June 2012 - 04:57 PM, said:

The OLB manuscript was originally thought to have been written in Old Frisian but according to Jensma "the syntax of this artificial language proves to be completely in line with modern, read: nineteenth-century Dutch/Frisian"

Jensma is not completely sure that OLB is a hoax.
He addmitted so himself, I have quoted him on that earlier.
Therefore, it is not sure that the language is artificial.
Thus, the obove quote is wrong.

It should be:

"The syntax of modern Dutch/ Frisian is in line with the language of the OLB."

Since syntax didn't really change over the last few hundred years, why should it have changed over the last 1000 or 2000 years?

We only have a few written records  from late-medieval monks, who were Latin schooled. They will not have been Westfrisians, as the Westfrisians hated the church and everything having to do with it.

In North-Holland/ Westfriesland/ Texland (Texel) the original Fryan culture and language may have been well preserved, transmitted from mother to child (hence mothertongue; moedertaal; memmetaal). The people from this area will have had much influence on Dutch culture, otherwise we would by now be speaking French, German, Danish or English. Our language, syntax and vocabulary must be deeply rooted in our culture. While men usually travel around, going to wars, exploring, trading etc., women usually stay home (unless they are kidnapped, sold, traded or if they really have to escape when driven out of their land.) In peace-minded cultures, children are raised mainly by their mothers. In war-minded cultures, the sons get military schooling (by men who will often be from different areas) from young age. So language stays most pure in areas where mothers raise and educate their children.

Think about that one for a while.

Westfriesland (and Texel?) were subdued for the first time (as far as I know) by the counts of 'Holland' (a term introduced in 1100 to replace 'Frisia') in the late 13th century.

We have to ask this question:

Is it possible that OLB and its language are authentic?

The answer is:

YES, that IS possible.

Posted 2 June, 09:10 AM

Abramelin, on 01 June 2012 - 04:57 PM, said:

The OLB manuscript was originally thought to have been written in Old Frisian but according to Jensma "the syntax of this artificial language proves to be completely in line with modern, read: nineteenth-century Dutch/Frisian"

Besides that it is not sure that the language is 'artificial', there is more wrong with this quote.

The syntax of the OLB-language is as much in line with the syntax of late medieval Oldfrisian (from the well-known laws) as it is with that of 19th century Dutch/Frisian.

Jensma's "read: nineteenth-century" is suggestive, one might even say demagogic.

He wants the reader to believe something that he could not prove.

Posted 2 June, 11:00 PM

Otharus, on 02 June 2012 - 12:19 AM, said:

In North-Holland/ Westfriesland/ Texland (Texel) the original Fryan culture and language may have been well preserved, transmitted from mother to child (hence mothertongue; moedertaal; memmetaal).
...
So language stays most pure in areas where mothers raise and educate their children.

Mother tongue - English
Langue maternelle - French
Lengua materna - Spanish
Madrelingua - Italian
Muttersprache - German
Moedertaal - Dutch
Memmetaal - Frisian
Modersmål - Danish, Swedish
Morsmål - Norwegian

We usually learn the basics of our language (and ethics) from our mother.

Before there was television and radio, and when people usually did not go very far from home, children will only have heard the language of their familiy and village members. (In cities even neighbourhoods would have their own particular accent.) Education by the parents and family was more important than in the last few generations.

Since I collected data of my ancestors a long time ago, I could easily do a case-study, making visible the spread of six generations of mothers. As you can see almost all of them were born in Westfriesland. Only four were born a bit more south, but still in the province North-Holland (between Amsterdam and Westfriesland).

I have read witness reports from the early18th century, they give a good impression of spoken language as the notary would literally quote the witnesses. Apart from a few words that are no longer used, language (syntax) has not changed a bit.

Between 1700 and now the language of my ancestors has hardly changed, and they did not migrate much.

I can imagine that in the preceding centuries changes happened even slower.
Communication was much more oral than now.
Because common people were hardly reading, the brain had much more space left for speaking and listening (and singing  ).
I also think their vocabulary was much better than ours. 

Forum # 24 (mei 17 - 31, 2012)

Posted 17 May 2012 - 12:07 PM

The OLB can be read in different ways, depending on one-his pre-assumptions.

We have seen how Alewyn found it hard to accept that the Fryan culture was matriarchal (led by mothers), because he had imagined differently.

Jensma at some point must have gotten the idea that OLB is actually about a 19th century religious conflict, and that much of it was ment to be funny. Many of his footnotes are: "grappig bedoeld" (pun intended).

Example (at page 146 line 12-13; my paraphrased translation):
"Kauch ... Kâp - not totally clear; possibly the (farfetched) joke is in the difference between the German 'kauf' = buy, purchase, deal (Dutch: koop) and Oldfrisian 'kâp' which means the same, and therefore the joke is, that the Chauci derive their name from the Frisian word for 'buy'."

People tend to see the things they want to see, and in extreme cases they even see things that are not there.

I ran into a hallucination or delusional perception (?) from Jensma that I want to point out, just for the record.
(I sometimes use this forum as a notebook, for future reference.)
In general, his transcription is an improvement to the one by Ottema, but in this case he has corrupted a word that was correct.

[page 146, line 17-27]

ÀFRE GRÁTE FLOD HWÉR.VR MIN TÁT SKRÉVEN HETH.
WÉRON FÉLO JUTTAR ÀND LÉTNE
MITH EBBE UT.A BALDA JEFTA KWADE SÉ FORED.
BI KÁT HIS GAT DRÉVON HJA IN HJARA KÁNA
MITH ÍSE VPPA THA DÉNE.MARKA FÀST
ÀND THÉR.VP SEND HJA SITTEN BILÉWEN.
THÉR NÉRON NARNE NÉN MÀNNISKA AN.T SJOCHT.
THÉR VMBE HÀVON HJA THÀT LÁND INT.
NÉI HJARA NÔME HÀVON HJA THÀT LAND JUTTAR.LÁND HÉTEN.

Where the text clearly has "INT", Jensma transcribed "IVT", and he translated "gejut" (jutted = beach-combed).

"Daarom hebben zij het land gejut."
(Therefore they jutted/ beach-combed the land.)

In the fragment (see scan) "JUTTAR" is clearly both times spelled with an I-dot (J) and a round U, not a V.

Ottema's transcription and translation were correct:
"Thêrvmbe håvon hja thåt lând int"
"Daarom hebben zij het land in bezit genomen"

Sandbach:
"so they took possession of the land"

INT = geïnd = ingenomen = in bezit genomen; past perfect of verb 'innen' = to take possession of 

Posted 17 May 2012 - 01:43 PM

There have been many examples where the Westfrisian dialect (sometimes that of Texel) offers better explanations for OLB-words than known (Old-) Frisian. It might also be one of the reasons why some proud nationalist Frisians did not like the OLB, because it suggested that their dialect was actually not older than Dutch, just another variety of Old-'Frisian'. I have suggested before (like in my Frisones video), that the 'Fryan' Old-Frisian might actually more be Old-Westfrisian.

This map has been in my mind for a while.
Now I finally made it (using a reconstucted map of Roman times):

Posted 18 May 2012 - 10:07 AM

If Amsterdam and Haarlem (the biggest cities of North-Holland) would be left out, the percentages would have been higher.

These percentages clearly show that in 1920 the province North-Holland was least religious.

This supports my theory that the original 'free-Frisian' (or Fryan) spirit survived more in North-Holland than in the province Friesland. It may also explain why the Over de Linden family moved from Leeuwarden (FRL) to Enkhuizen (NH). 

This does not take Judaism, Buddhism and other small (in NL) religions into account yet, but it gives an impression. 

According to another source the % of people without religion in NL was in 2005: 48.4 %
nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religie_in_Nederland

From orthodox Protestant (Reformed) newspaper (31-08-2010):

Ontkerkelijking in Nederland sterkst
DEN HAAG – De ontkerkelijking in Nederland is al een eeuw gaande, maar gaat nergens ter wereld zo snel als hier. Dat blijkt uit nieuwe cijfers van het Centraal Bureau voor de Statistiek (CBS).

www.refdag.nl/kerkplein/kerknieuws/ontkerkelijking

Translated:

Deconversion (people losing their religion) strongest in the Netherlands
Deconversion in the Netherlands has been going on for a century, but nowhere in the world it is going as fast as here. New figures of the Central Bureau for Statistics prove that.

Conclusion:

The Netherlands are ahead of the rest of the (western?) world with deconversion, and as I have shown, within the Netherlands this is the province North-Holland (Westfriesland), the area where 'Fryan' culture would logically have remained most original (more than in the province Friesland/ Fryslân), as it was more difficult to conquer by the Gola/ Kelta/ Romans/ Franks (from the south) and Magí/ Danes/ Germans (from the east).

It will not be a coincidence that the utter north-west part of NL, Texel/ Texland (?), was the cultural/ administrative centre of 'Fryasland'.

Posted 20 May 2012 - 10:11 PM

In the following quotes, MÉID, MÉIDE, MÉIDUM is translated through the context.
I could not find a dictionary that has this word with a meaning like the ones used in the translations.
I suspect a relation to mead (Dutch: mede).

(Elsewhere in the OLB 'MÉID' means present/ gift. That meaning is listed in dictionaries, as well as various other meanings, but not 'tavern' or 'assembly'.)

[151/09] about Friso
KÉMON THA SINA KNAPA VPPA THÉRE MÉID
[Ottema p.205]
Kwamen dan zijne knapen op de gelagkamer
When his young men went to the tavern

[151/18] about Friso
ÀND VPPA THÉRE MÉID TÉRADON HJA ALON VNKVMMERLIK WÉI
[O+S p.205]
op de gelagkamer teerden zij steeds onbekommerd voort
they spent money carelessly in the taverns

[197/18] about Black Adel
IN STÉDE THAT HJA INVPPA THÉRE MÉIDE HWIP ÀND SWIK SPÉLE
[O+S p.237]
in stede dat zij op hun gezelschappen wip en zwik spelen
instead of playing games of swinging and wrestling
[Sandbach didn't translate the underlined]

[202/25] about Black Adel
THES DÉIS KÉTHE HJU VPPA ALLE MARKUM ÀND BINNA ALLE MÉIDUM
[O+S p.243]
bij dag sprak zij op alle markten en in alle gezelschappen
by day she made speeches in all the markets and in all the assemblies

Posted 21 May 2012 - 07:03 AM

Just like 'café' (coffee) became the word for the place where it is served (in nowadays NL 'coffeeshops' are places where people can buy and smoke cannabis and it has nothing to do with coffee anymore), 'MÉID' (mead) is used in OLB (appearantly) for a place where people come together to socialize.

The question is: did someone brilliantly make this up himself (him = neutral), or was this meaning of the word forgotten long before the first dictionaries were made?

(To me the answer is simple, because I have no doubts about OLB's authenticity.) 

Posted 22 May 2012 - 07:33 AM

Van Gorp, on 22 May 2012 - 07:24 AM, said:

... we are used to take (because given) the fake for real, and then the real seems to be too simple/ridiculous.

Exactly!

Quote

In case of Latin: what 'original' language could be that complicated?  It is of no practical use.

I agree.
Latin was a language designed to be written, not an oral language of the people.
The example of GÁRD, garden, giardino, jardin proves that Latin was a new language.
If it was really that old we would all be using varieties of HORTUS.
Even in Italy they say giardino.

If it was a practical language that had evolved naturally, it would have stayed.
We would all be using it.

Posted 28 May 2012 - 08:35 PM

Example of spelling variety and inconsequent translation by Ottema/ Sandbach (1876).

[008/26]
SACH HJU EN NYNDASK EN SPINNE VRSLYNNA
[O+S p.15]
Zag zij een hagedis eene spin verslinden
If she saw a lizard swallow a spider

[166/30]
FORTH SIND THÉR ÔLLERLÉJA SLACHT FON HÁCH-DISKA. NYN-DISKA ÀND Á-DISKA
[O+S p.225]
Voorts zijn daar allerlei soort van hagedissen, schildpadden en krokodillen
There are, besides, all sorts of lizards, tortoises, and crocodiles

~~
Assuming that NYNDASK and NYN-DISK are varieties of the same word, it can be concluded that the translation was not consequent.

The words HÁCH-DISK, NYN-DISK and Á-DISK are not known from Oldfrisian texts and dictionaries (as far as I know).

The term "nijdas" is known from oldschool Dutch in use for someone with a nasty character, and the word was associated with "hagedis" (lizard).
http://gtb.inl.nl/iW...emmodern=nijdas
http://www.etymologi...refwoord/nijdas

"Hagedis" (the modern Dutch spelling) is known in a variety of spellings: eghedisse, egedisse, haghetisse, hagetisse, aketisse, hertisse, etcetera.
http://gtb.inl.nl
http://www.etymologi...efwoord/hagedis 

Posted 28 May 2012 - 11:24 PM

Spelling varieties BÀRN & BERN (born or child/ children) throughout the OLB

1. Roughly

A} Until page 65 (line 14), where the history of JON starts, BÀRN is more common than BERN:
31x BÀRN vs. 5x BERN

B} From the history of JON (page 65, line 15) onwards, it is the other way around:
74x BERN vs. 1x BÀRN

2. More specifically

Part A}

1x BERN is used in the introduction [001/01]-[005/08], which has 2x BÀRN
2x BERN is used in Minno's writings [029/21]-[040/10], which have 1x BÀRN
2x BERN is used in the text from the Waraburch (about Wodin) [050/19]-[061/27], which has 1x BÀRN

=> in these 3 texts the spelling is inconsequent

In all other texts of part A} the spelling is consequently BÀRN (27x)

Part B}

1x BÀRN is used in the text from Fryasburch (about Ulysus) [075/08]-[079/10], which has 1x BERN

=> in this single text the spelling is inconsequent

In all other texts of part B} the spelling is consequently BERN (73x)

~ ~ ~
I leave conclusions to the reader.
~ ~ ~

A similar exercise can be done with (for example):

SEND vs. SIND
NW/ NVV vs. NV
KÁNING/ KÀNING vs. KENING/ KÉNING
WI vs. WY

(For this analysis I used www.online-utility.org/text/analyzer.jsp and my transcription, which is a corrected version of Ottema's.)

Posted 30 May 2012 - 10:58 AM

Abramelin, on 29 May 2012 - 01:38 AM, said:

Yeah, we've been there before.
And according to the OLB there were "alligators" in the Punjab too, lol.
Or what was the word again? "Al-geatar"?

No, we have not been here yet. We discussed the word AL-GÀTTAR, but not Á-DISK.

The following two fragments show that (like NYN-DISK) the word was not translated consequently by Ottema and Sandbach.

[166/30]
FORTH SIND THÉR ÔLLERLÉJA SLACHT FON HÁCH.DISKA. NYN.DISKA ÀND Á.DISKA
[O+S p.225]
Voorts zijn daar allerlei soort van hagedissen, schildpadden en krokodillen
There are, besides, all sorts of lizards, tortoises, and crocodiles

[167/04]
THA ALDERGRÁTESTE Á.DISKA SIND AL.GÀTTAR HÉTEN
[O+S p.225]
de allergrootste adisken heeten alligators
the largest ['adiska' = water-reptiles?] are called alligators

~
The Nethersaxon dialects still have versions of this word (with the -SK sound).

Lizard (Dutch: hagedis) in Nethersaxon dialects (source http://nds-nl.wikipe.../wiki/Evertaske )

eveltask, eveltasse, eveltas(t), evertaast, evertas(se) - Drèents (Drenthe)
eweldasse - Graafschopper Platt
evertaske, heveltaske - Grunnegs (Groningen)
èverdasse - Zwolle
eveltaske, evertaske - Stellingwarfs (Stellingwerf)
eveltasse, eawerdasse - Tweants (Twente)
eve[r]desse - Veluws (Veluwe; Nunspeet)

It is important to note that "DASK" and "DISK" are not listed in Halbertsma's Lexicon Frisicum (A-F), which is strange if he would have written the OLB.

In fact, I have not found these words in any regular dictionary, Dutch or Frisian.
Still, the dialects speak bookparts.

It looks like the Dutch 'hage-dis' may originally have been 'hage-disk' or 'haag-disk' as OLB suggests.

Posted 30 May 2012 - 08:35 PM

Abramelin, on 30 May 2012 - 05:21 PM, said:

And "eidechse", ohd (old High German). "egi-dëhsa" is close enough. It looks even older than  the OLB "a_diska".

That does not look older to me.
The most original version would logically be the most simple one.
(Just like GARD would be older than hortus, jardin, giardino etc.) 

Posted 31 May 2012 - 05:59 PM

Abramelin, on 31 May 2012 - 01:57 PM, said:

To name something you use a couple of descriptive words. This description then becomes a name, and names (and words) tend to shorten in the course of time.

Yes in those cases that is true, but if GARD is from the verb GARA (which I think is likely), than that is the most simple, the most pure form.
I will think of more examples.

The Newfrisian 'wyn' and 'lân' for 'wind' and 'land' are shorter, but newer spelling varieties.

MANNISK => mensk/ minsk => mensch => mens
SKOLA => scholen/ schools/ schüle
SVN => son/ zoon/ sohn
BOK => book/ boek/ büch
LIF => life/ lijf/ leven
FLOD => flood/ vloed

Lex Salica ~ older 'Dutch'

Posted 31 May 2012 - 09:29 PM

From front page and page 18 of today's Dutch daily newspaper NRC Handelsblad:

Translation of frontpage article (underlinings added by me):

Dutch language is much older than ´olla vogala´
['all birds'; a famous love poem, supposedly written by a Westflemmish monk in the late 11th century]

By the editorial office 'Science' (Rotterdam)

The Old-Dutch language is much older than the words in the well-known sentence 'Hebban olla vogala nestas hagunnan hinase...'. 350 words of 500 years older can be labelled as old-Dutch. They are reconstructed from copies of a sixth-century lawtext, the Lex Salica.
In the course of centuries many copies of that text were made and the copyists did no longer know how to deal with the Netherfrankish words. Those words were changed, made into Latin-ish or Greek-ish words, or simply left out.
Now they have been reconstructed and included in a new edition of the Old-Dutch Dictionary of the Institute for Dutch Lexicology. It is online on www.inl.nl.
They are not only strange words, like 'andarstrippi' and 'heemheto' (see examples). Words like 'morther' (murder), 'fither' (four ~ Dutch & German: vier) and 'focla' (bird ~ Dutch & German: vogel) sound more familiar.
The original Lex Salica was written in North-France, where Netherfrankish was spoken. "That language", editor of the dictionary Arend Quack explains, "was definitively superseded by the Roman language in the seventh century". The Lex Salica was written in Latin, but to clarify the juridical text, many words were added from the spoken language of that time.

[examples (separating dots added by me):]
andar.strippi someone else his land
brio.ruoro index finger (literal: to stir porridge/ mush)
ferth.bero a bringer/ barer of severe danger
fri.fra.sagin to end an engagement with a woman
heem.heto the main (breeding) bull/ steer

[continued in article from page 18] 

Translation of main article (underlinings by me):

First Dutch is 1500 years old
'Heemheto' is the bull that leads the hurd: 'heto' is leader, 'heem' is home

The 350 oldest 'Dutch' words are 500 years older than the well known 'Hebban olla vogala...' They are mostly juridical terms, from a sixth-century law text.

By Berthold van Maris (Rotterdam)

The oldest 'Olddutch' words that are still used, were written in the sixth century. This month they were added to the new edition of the online Olddutch Dictionary from the Institute for Dutch Lexicology. They are 350 words that are five centuries older than the well-known fragment 'Hebban olla vogala...'. Odd words, like 'frifrasagin': to break ('forsay' ~ Dutch: 'verzeggen') the engagement with a woman ('fri' ~ Dutch: vrouw). 'Andarstrippi': otherman's land (literally: strip). And 'ferthbero': a bringer/ carrier of severe danger.
The collection also contains words that still live forth in the Dutch language: moord (morther = murder), vier (fither = four), vogel (focla = bird), haan (hano = rooster), horige (horigo = slave), vee (fe = cattle) and dorpel (durpelo = doorsill).
All these words were used in a Frankish law text from the sixth century, the Lex Salica. They are Oldgermanic descriptions of crimes and misdemeanors, but also other words that were added to clarify the Latin text.
The lawtext was composed in North-France, Arend Quak -main editor of the dictionary - explains. A kind of Netherfrankish (a Germanic language) was spoken there in the sixth century. This language was probably related to the Germanic that was spoken more northerly, in the Low Lands (Netherlands).
Quak: "This Netherfrankish is one of the languages that are the foundation of the Dutch language. Besides Saxon, that was spoken in the East-Netherlands and Germany, and Frisian, which was the language of the Northsea coast. The main part of what we know as Dutch nowadays, is Netherfrankish."
Thus, Netherfrankish is sort of Old-Dutch. "In North-France the Netherfrankish language was definitively superseded by the Roman language in the seventh century. The many handwritten copies of the Lex Salica that we have are of later date: from after that change of language. As a result, the copyists read and copied those Germanic words, but they no longer understood them. Furthermore, in that time they already used a different spelling. 'Ch' became 'H', for example. Also, letters were sometimes mis-read. A 'u' could easily be read as an 'a', a 'uu' as an 'm', a 'c' as a 't'. And sometimes these words were associated with other words, like with Latin words, and changed accordingly. In one manuscript, the copyist even writes that he simply left out 'those Greek words'.
As a result, the words were quite mishmashed. 'Ferthbero' (carrier of severe danger) was found in many varieties: ferimbera, ferthebero, fertibero, fistirbiero and frictebero.
By comparing all copies, after much puzzling, many of the original versions could be reconstructed. Quak also compared the material with sources of other Oldgermanic languages, of which much more survived, like Oldhighgerman and Oldenglish. In the past, the differences between the Germanic languages were less significant.
Quak says that about circa 75 percent of his reconstructions, he is 'quite certain'. To the other part he added a question-mark.
His favorite word is 'heemheto'. In the Latin text this is explained as the bull that leads the hurd. "Heto is something like commander and is common in Oldgermanic. Heem is common too, in the meaning of home, farm or village. The combination of those two was a big surprise to me."
One of the reconstructions that he is less certain of, is the old word for indexfinger. The manuscripts have many varieties: biorotro, brioro and briorodero. "One might reconstruct that into 'brioruoro': 'brijroerder' ('brew-churner'); the finger that is used to churn or stir the porridge or mush." The word is used in a paragraph about the mutilation of fingers: "When the indexfinger, used to shoot with bow and arrow, is chopped off - in the folktongue 'brioruoro'- the fine is 35 shillings."

The Olddutch Dictionary exists online only, on www.inl.nl.

Posted 31 May 2012 - 10:24 PM

Abramelin, on 31 May 2012 - 09:34 PM, said:

Heh, read that again... DUTCH.
Not Frisian.

You still think they were different languages?!
There must have been dozens of dialects of the same language (whatever you want to call that language) all over NW-Europe.

"De verschillen tussen de Germaanse talen waren indertijd minder groot dan nu."

"In the past, the differences between the Germanic languages were less significant."

What is important, is that after a few hundred years of 'Dutch' linguistics, they finally accept that "Hebban olla vogala..." is not the oldest known source of our language.

{Note: I later learned that the "vogala" poem was discovered in 1932.}

Something many generations (including both of us) learned at school.

This was one step.

The step towards accepting the OLB as a serious source is made slightly easier now.

Posted 01 June 2012 - 06:34 AM

Abramelin, on 01 June 2012 - 04:26 AM, said:

And I posted a text (from the 6th or 7th century AD, found in the province of Friesland) written in runes that didn't resemble anything in the OLB, but it sure as hell was old Germanic, a language that should have been very close to Fryan.

For someone who calls himself a skeptic, you are too sure of things.

What are you talking about anyway?
'Old Germanic' IS very close to 'Fryan'! 

Posted 01 June 2012 - 11:13 AM

Abramelin, on 01 June 2012 - 10:58 AM, said:

But not the language they found used on that wooden tablet. It was written in runes, and the language did not resemble the Old Germanic or Old Frisian we know of, or the language used in the OLB.

Conclusion: the language of that wooden tablet was not Old-Germanic or Old-Frisian.

Posted 01 June 2012 - 02:53 PM

Abramelin, on 01 June 2012 - 02:24 PM, said:

Those Frisian Law Texts are from the 13th and 12th centuries; the runic inscriptions from Westeremden are from the 8th century.

If you consider those runic inscriptions as Oldfrisian, you might as well consider the Latin inscriptions on the Nehallennia votive stones as Olddutch.