23 April 2011

Forum # 4 (mar. 7 - 22, 2011)

Posted 08 March 2011 - 06:12 AM
Abramelin, on 08 March 2011 - 04:02 AM, said:
"Pharismanes is Friso [...] The author believes that Friesians have a common ancestor, the Persian nobleman Pharismanes.

If it's true that this 'Prince of Persia' Pharismanes (Phriasman =>> Fryasman???) is indeed the Friso of the 'fantastic' Frisian historiography, that would almost be as spectacular as OLB being authentic, as it means that the Frisian 'legends' were not all that fantasy based after all (some more than others still). And this would also have implications for how OLB was received and interpreted. It will all have to be seen in a different light.

The fact that the Royal Library and NGV (etc.) are spreading this info means that they take it seriously.

I'm also very interested in the Berber/ Khabyli/ Amazigh connection. Didn't Alewyn also write about the Berber-'barbarian' link? I will dive deeper into this and will also read that King Tut-thread. If I'm silent for the next few days, it means I'm studying.

### Posted 10 March 2011 - 03:16 AM
Abramelin, on 09 March 2011 - 07:21 PM, said:
And I would like to hear from Otharus - because he said he read the next book - about a Van der Meij.
According to Menno Krul (rodinbook.nl) Van der Meij discovered that many passages in the OLB could be found back - underlined - in the books from the library of Joost Halbertsma. You know, the Halbertsma who 'had nothing to do' with the OLB, who even died before Ottema's translation was published.
Van der Meij also discovered that Halbertsma had a habit of filling up spaces in a sentence with a ~ , and the same thing can be seen in the OLB manuscript [...]
But maybe I can get Van der Meij's book at the Koninklijke Bibliotheek ("Royal Library") in The Hague because I am going to visit that library soon.

No, I didn't read van der Meij (maybe you're confused with Vandermaelle; I'm waiting for that one).

But if his proof would have been slightly convincing, why would Jensma not have taken that seriously?

As for the filling empty spaces with ~~~; I have seen that notaries in the 18th century also did that. It is to prevent others from adding text later that should not be there. This may be a very old thing that, just like elements of the language, script, metaphors etc, has survived through the ages.

Good thing you're going to check it in the KB.

That it's odd that nothing was added in 18 centuries except the two letters is a good point actually. But then again, almost everything about the OLB is odd.

### Posted 10 March 2011 - 06:40 AM
Otharus, on 28 February 2011 - 05:48 PM, said:
And no, I didn't recieve news about the paper and ink study yet.
Don't worry, you'll know only a few hours later than me.

The only news I have for now is that they suddenly want to know why exactly I am interested and that the information appears to be confidential...

Why would this information be confidential if the conclusion is that paper and ink are from the 19th century as was always believed by the ignorant mainstream?

Anyway, no need to speculate. This news can't be kept a secret for very long. Maybe they just first want to inform all the 'professionals' so they can prepare themselves and get their act together.

### jmccr8, on 10 March 2011 - 04:24 PM, said:
Hello Otharus,
I would imagine that due to the way media coverage displays information that they would like to prepare a proper report so that there will be little room for an alternative interpretaion by "jounalists" and "reporters"of various factions. I would also like to add that I have found the information and arguements presented in this thread very informative.

### Posted 11 March 2011 - 02:57 AM
The Puzzler, on 11 March 2011 - 12:36 AM, said:
The latest one says it was copied out 1256AD and then to copy it out after that, which could get the paper dated to mid 19th century anyway, which if the paper is new to that time, doesn't invalidate the OLB at all then.
Prior to that, it was noted that Adela's followers had copied into a book to be copied by others yes, but this version cuts off, whether anyone elses copy did we don't know.
Also, it might not have originally been cut off but when recopied maybe unfinished.

Good points Puzzler.
My thoughts were that in the first 13 centuries AD the book-keepers will have been too busy surviving wars, floods and Christening and maybe also migrating back and forth between east-, west- and south-Friesland (Flanders?), to wherever it was safest and driest at the moment.
The manuscript will have caused trouble before and will have been a secret and sacred treasure that the keepers both loved and feared.
It is not unthinkable that what happened to Ottema, also happened to earlier keepers who dove deep into the matter; that they 'lost their mind' in a way (because the paradigm is too much in conflict with the general belief system), became isolated and maybe also committed suicide.
After the 13th century people will have had more trouble reading it, because the language changed as a result of Christening (which included mass-murder).
The manuscript will have been a dangerous treasure to take out of its hiding place for most of the time. If it was discovered, not only would it have been offered to flames, but very likely also the house of the owner (if not the whole village) and the keepers and their whole family would be killed.
It is indeed a miracle that the manuscript survived.
Almost unbelievable, but less so than that it would have been created in the 19th century.
Now that would be a kind of miracle I do not believe in.

Some of you may find this interesting, for different reasons:
(fragments of a longer article by Maria Kvilhaug, parts made bold by me)

The Books of Old
What do we actually know about the Old Norse Pagan beliefs? Hardly anything at all, it could be argued. All the sources on this subject are written sources, written in the Latin alphabet by scholars and monks more than a century or more after the Conversion, and we just do not know to what degree “accurate” Pagan myths survived in the memory of Christian descendants across several generations. Another question is how “accurate” any myth would be in the first place, since the Pagan religion was not a dogmatic religion basing itself on the interpretation of holy books. It was a religion that based itself on magical activities and mystical experience, and myths may have varied according to who related them, when they related them, to whom, and when, and with what purpose. Poetry was a sacred art in Norse Paganism, and poets could take great liberty and apply endless variety in their use of allegory and metaphor in order to convey a message.
Many of the Edda poems that we know of were collected in a manuscript known as the Codex Regius, which resurfaced in 1647 A.D. after having been kept away from the public for a period of four centuries. An Icelandic family of farmers had been the keepers of the only comprehensive collection of Edda poems that had survived the censorship of the Medieval Church. The leather manuscript was almost complete, with the exceptions of a few pages that had been torn out in the end.
As a source to Old Norse Paganism, Snorri`s work must be used with care. He wrote the book 225 years after the Icelandic Conversion to Christianity. He based his work on his knowledge of Edda and Skaldic poetry and on the “tales of old men and women who still remember the old ways”. To what degree the old ways were remembered after more than two centuries, we do not know. Snorri was a poet himself, and the storylines of Gylfi and Aegir may have been invented by himself as they are not referred to in any older sources. Finally, Snorri had to present the myths in a manner that was acceptable to a Christian audience. When looking at the older Poetic Edda as well as the mythological allusions made in Skaldic poetry, we see that Snorri`s work is greatly adapted and modified to fit his time. He consciously left out mythological events and “facts” in his sources that were too provocative to the Church. Such gaps in his otherwise quite detailed accounts seem to scream for attention, and whenever that gap is filled by the older sources, we see that themes of initiation and spiritual transformation, as well as female teachers and leaders, are continuously left out or rewritten by Snorri. These were themes that could lead to censorship and in the worst case, book-burning, during the Medieval era. I believe this danger of persecution might be a reason why the Codex Regius with its compilation of Pagan poetry was kept hidden by mysterious Icelandic farmers until 1647 and the Age of Enlightenment. Snorri did his best to convey knowledge in a way that could be accepted by Christians - that is, by Christians who did not look further – for often enough he hid Pagan knowledge in plain sight.
The Song of the Sun is a late Edda poem that clearly conveys the struggle between Pagan and Christian worldviews and the understanding of the afterlife. In the stanza quoted, it is clearly stated that the god Njorðr has nine daughters.
If your first reaction to reading this is: “But… Njorðr has only one daughter and a son – Freyr and Freya!” I would not be surprised. It was certainly my first reaction.
The reason our reaction would be like this is because anyone who have ever read basic Norse mythology will have been conditioned to believe that Njorð`s only children are Freyr and Freya. But why are we conditioned to believe that this is a mythological “fact”?
The reason is quite simple: Snorri only wrote that Njorðr had two children by his sister, and that these were Freyr – “The Lord Sovereign”, and Freya – “The Lady Sovereign”. Thus scholars have either ignored the stanza in the Song of the Sun or dismissed it as the ramblings of a Medieval Christian who didn’t know his mythology properly.

### Posted 12 March 2011 - 01:57 AM
Alewyn, on 11 March 2011 - 06:01 PM, said:
I am sure we all agree that if the tests indicated a 19th century date, there should have been no problem.

I agree.

I would suggest that some pressure is the only approach that will produce a result.

As far as I understood, the first article is about to be published in a professional magazine for archivists. I will write my new request this weekend.

### Posted 12 March 2011 - 08:00 AM
The Puzzler, on 12 March 2011 - 04:21 AM, said:
One reason I don't think it's a hoax, why would people of Frisian descent undermine their whole history and proud morals, with NO TRUTH, just lies, doesn't seem very Frisian to me at ALL.

Well said.

### Posted 12 March 2011 - 05:40 PM
The Puzzler, on 12 March 2011 - 04:16 PM, said:
I gotta go with Otharus on 'Veritas Liberat', that is, Truth Frees and if it wasn't the Frisians we are talking about I'd say it could seem hoaxable, but this group of people have retained this moral code as part of who they are for ever and to accuse them of being liars and tale-makers seems to just go against everything they stand for...

Thank you, Puzzler.

### Posted 12 March 2011 - 05:44 PM

(pagenumbers: original manuscript/ Ottema & Sandbach)

O Finda. Tha wårth jrtha fvl blod, ånd tha hâveda thêr månneska måjadon thin bårn lik gårs hålma of.
O Finda, toen werd de aarde vol bloed, en de hoofden der menschen maaiden uwe kinderen af gelijk grashalmen.
O Finda! then the earth overflowed with blood, and your children were mown down like grass.

After im kêm en skiper fona Dênemarka, thisse nam sin swêrd ånd hif thêne Fin thrvch sina hole.
Thêrut flât swart blod ånd thêrvr swêfde-n blâwe logha.

Achter hem kwam een zeeman van de Denemarken, deze nam zijn zwaard en kloofde den Fin den kop.
Daaruit stroomde zwart bloed en daarboven zweefde eene blaauwe vlam.
A Danish soldier came behind him and clave his head in two.
There came from it a stream of black blood and a wreath of blue flame.

That blod thêra årgum skil ovir thin lif strâma, men thu ne mügth et navt to thi nêma.
Het bloed der boozen zal over uw ligchaam stroomen, maar gij moogt het niet tot u nemen.
The blood of the bad shall flow over your surface, but you must not absorb it.

Tha wrdon tha alderdrista månniska mith hjara kêdne wirgad.
Irtha heth hjara blod dronken, mith thåt blod fode hju früchda ånd nochta,
ånd alle tham thêr of êton wrdon wis.

Toen werden de stoutmoedigste menschen met hunne ketenen gewurgd.
De aarde heeft hun bloed gedronken, met dat bloed voedde zij vruchten en koorn
en al die daarvan aten werden wijs.
Then the boldest of the people were strangled in their chains.
The earth drank their blood, and that blood produced corn and fruits
that inspired with wisdom those who ate them.

Tha forsta thêr wêrhêd minna ånd rjucht tham skilun fon tha prestera wika,
blod skil strâma, men thêrut skil-et folk nye kråfta gâra.

De vorsten, die de waarheid liefhebben en het recht, die zullen van de priesters afwijken;
het bloed zal stroomen, maar daaruit zal het volk nieuwe krachten vergaderen.
The princes who love the truth and justice shall separate themselves from the priests;
blood shall flow, but from it the people will gather new strength.

Sâ fêlo lêd skil hju broda, thåt Irtha-t blod algâdvr navt drinka ne kån fon hira vrslêjana bernum.
Zoo veel leed zal hij broeden, dat Irtha het bloed niet zal kunnen drinken van hare verslagene kinderen.
It will breed so much mischief that Irtha will not be able to drink the blood of her slain children.

Tha Gola mêieath then tha nitherlêga fon hjara helpar ånd salt-âthum vppa vsa fjeldum skryva
mith-et blod, thåt ût hjara wndum drjupth.

De Golen mogen dan de nederlagen van hunne helpers en soldaten op onze velden schrijven
met het bloed dat uit hunne wonden druipt.
The Gauls may then record the defeat of their helpers and soldiers upon our fields
with the blood that flows from their wounds.

Orloch was mith kvmen ånd kirt åfter flojadon strâma blod by tha hellinga thêra bergum del.
De oorlog was mede gekomen en kort daarna vloeiden stroomen bloed bij de hellingen der bergen neder.
War had come with him, and soon blood was streaming down the slopes of the mountains.

[Ottema/Sandbach p.52-53, original p.35-36]


Hwanath kvmth-et kwâd thån wêi, frêjath tha prestera.

Waar komt het kwaad dan weg, vroegen de priesteren.
Where, then, does evil come from? asked the priests.

[Hellenia a.k.a. Minerva:]
Allet kwâd kvmth fon jow ånd fon thêre dvmhêd thêra månniska,
tham hjara selva fon jow fensa lêta.

Alle kwaad komt van u en van de domheid der menschen,
die zich van u laten vangen.
All the evil comes from you, and from the stupidity of the people
who let themselves be deceived by you.

Jef thin drochten thån sâ bjustre god is,
wêrvmb wêrther-et kwâd thån navt,
frêjath tha prestera.

Indien uwe godheid dan zoo bijster goed is,
waarom weert hij dan het kwaad niet,
vroegen de priesters.
If, then, your god is so exceedingly good,
why does he not turn away the bad?
asked the priests.

Hellenia andere,
Frya het vs vppe wêi brocht ånd thene kroder thåt is tid,
tham mot thåt ovrige dva.
With alle rampum is rêd ånd help to findande,
tha Wr.alda wil thåt wi hja selva soka skilon,
til thju wi sterik skile wertha ånd wis.
Nillath wi navt, thån lêt-er vsa trul ut trulla,
til thju wi skilon erfâra, hwat nêi wisa dêdum
ånd hwat nêi dvma dêdum folgath.

Hellenia antwoorde:
Frya heeft ons op den weg gebracht, en de Kroder, dat is de Tijd,
die moet het overige doen;
voor alle rampen is raad en hulp te vinden,
doch Wralda wil dat wij die zelve zullen zoeken,
opdat wij sterk zullen worden en wijs.
Willen wij niet, dan laat hij onze verbastering uitrazen,
opdat wij zullen ervaren, wat na verstandige daden
en wat na dwaze daden volgt.
Hellenia answered:
Frya has placed us here, and the carrier, that is, Time,
must do the rest.
For all calamities there is counsel and remedy to be found,
but Wr-alda wills that we should search it out ourselves,
in order that we may become strong and wise.
If we will not do that, he leaves us to our own devices,
in order that we may experience the results of wise
or foolish conduct.

Tha sêide-ne forst,
ik skolde wâna, that wêre betre, that to wêrande.

Toen zeide een vorst:
Ik zoude wanen, dat het beter ware, die te weeren.
Then a prince said,
I should think it best to submit.

Hwel müglik, andere Hellênia,
hwand than skolde tha månniska bilywa lik tåmade skêpa;
thv ånd tha prestera skolde-r than hoda willa,
men âk skêra ånd nêi thêre slacht benke fora.

Wel mogelijk, antwoordde Hellenia,
want dan zouden de menschen blijven gelijk makke schapen,
gij en de priesters zoudt hen willen hoeden,
maar ook scheren en naar de slachtbank voeren.
Very possibly, answered Hellenia;
for then men would be like sheep,
and you and the priests would take care of them,
shearing them and leading them to the shambles.

Tach alsa nil-t vs drochten navt, hi wil that wi ekkorum helpa,
men hi wil âk thåt jahweder fry sy ånd wis wrde.

Doch zoo wil het onze godheid niet, hij wil, dat wij elkander helpen,
maar hij wil ook dat iedereen vrij zij en wijs worde.
This is what our god does not desire, he desires that we should help one another,
but that all should be free and wise.

### Posted 15 March 2011 - 05:50 PM

I have finished reading one of Vandemaelle's books now, "Controversiele Geschiedschrijving" (Controversial Historiography), and although I enjoyed reading it and learned some new things, I am not overall satisfied.

One of the most important parts; the map of "Old Frisia", located in West-Flanders, with the burgs as mentioned in OLB, does not match with the description given in the manuscript.

In OLB (original p.5, Ottema/Sandbach p.11) we find:

Ast-flylând + ovir-a Linda-wrda: Ljvdgârda, Lindahêm, Stâvja
Oostflyland + over de Lindeoorden: Liudgarda, Lindahem, Stavia

hâga fenna + walda: Bvda, Manna-gârda-forda
Hoogefennen + Wouden: Buda, Manna-garda-forda

Sûdar Flylânda: Aken, Ljvdburch, Kâtsburch
Zuiderflylanden: Aken, Liudburg, Katsburg

West-flylând + Texland: Wâraburch, Mêdêasblik, Forâna, ald Fryasburch
Westflyland + Texel: Waraburg, Medeasblik, Forana, Fryasburg

tha Sjvgon êlânda: Walhallagâra
de Zeven eilanden: Walhallagara

Liudgarda = Lugdunum on Peutinger Map, now Leulinghen
Stavia = Staliocanus from Ptolomeus, now Etaples at the Canche river
Buda = Bubers-les-Hesmont near Budberg and Buda river
Manna-garda-forda = Mannaricium on Peutinger Map, now Merville near Haezebrouck
Katsburg = Katsberg, Mont des Cats
Waraburg = Brugge
Medeasblik = Middelburg
Forana = Latin Furna or Furana, now Veurne
Walhallagara = Walcheren
Alderga = Oudenburg
Texland = Tecelia (Ptolomeus), Axles (tacitus), now Escalles near Cap-Blanc-Nez

Although some of these may be true, they can't all be, because that would mean Westflyland was located northeast of Eastflyland... (see map)

The book is chaotic, as if published in a hurry. I'm still processing it, may need a re-read.

It would be nice if a revised version could be published on the web, with better references to sources and explanations.

One thing that has become clear is that as a result of many migrations, there are several places with similar names. This can be very confusing.

(According to Vandemaelle West-Flandres used to be called Îrland and Ireland used to be called Scotia. Of course there is Normandy and Bretagne in France. Did all this confusion start with the Troyan war?!)

So, although it's tempting to read OLB's Texland as nowaday Texel, OLB's Medeasblik as Medemblik, Stavia as Stavoren etc., this may not be right at all. I believe that North-west France and West-Flandres were much more strategic points for seafaring and trading peoples to settle than in the bog-marches and floodlands of the more northern Low or Nether Lands (Dana Marka?).

North-west France and West-Flandres indeed seem to have a much older history and archaeology, but VDM's map begs for a revision. Besides, what would the area between Flandres and Denmark have been referred to?

Could the following be a clue???
(According to a footnote of Ottema, "Dêne marka" means low (nether?) lands...)

[ottema/Sanbach p.69/ original p.48]
Alle strând ånd skor hêmar fon-a Dênemarka alont thêre Såndfal nw Skelda
wrdon Stjurar, Sêkåmpar ånd Angelara hêton.

Alle strand en kustbewoners van de Denemarken af tot aan de Sandval, nu Schelde,
werden Stuurlieden, Zeekampers en Angelaren geheeten.
All those who lived [on beaches and shores] between Denmark and the Sandval, now the Scheldt,
were called Stuurlieden (pilots), Zeekampers (naval men), and Angelaren (fishermen).

[ =>> Sturii, Sicambri, Anglo(Saxon)s?]

I am now reading Vandemaelle's other book "Het Beowulf-epos", which is written in a more serious, scientific style.
And next, one by Tolkien: "The Legend of Sigurd & Gudrun".

### Posted 15 March 2011 - 08:43 PM
(pagenumbers: Ottema & Sandbach/ original manuscript)


[075/053] ca. 2000 BC
Thâ wrdon kråfta sâmlath, thri pêlun fon Goda-his burch wrdon hja wither stonden, tha orloch bilêv.
Kât jefta Kâter-inne, alsa hête thju fâm, thêr burchfâm to Goda burch was.

Toen werden krachten verzameld, drie palen van Godasburgt werden zij wederstaan, de oorlog bleef.
Kat of Katerinne, zoo heette de priesteres, die burgtmaagd op Godasburgt was.
Then all the forces were assembled, and three hours from Godasburgt they were withstood, but war continued.
Kat or Katerine was the name of the priestess who was Burgtmaagd of Godasburgt.

[129/093] ca. 590 BC
Thi Mâgy tham sina Fryas svna hagja wilde stald-iri as Moder to Godaburch et Skênland,
mên hju wilde mâr, hju sêid-im thåt sahwersa hi Adela vpruma koste,
hi måster skolde wertha over êl Fryas land.

De Magy, die zijne Fryaszonen behagen wilde, stelde haar aan als Moeder op Godaburgt in Schoonland;
maar zij wilde meer, zij zeide hem dat, bijaldien hij Adela uit den weg ruimen konde,
hij meester zoude worden over geheel Fryas land.
The Magy, who wished to please his sons of Frya, appointed her mother of Godaburgt, in Schoonland;
but she wished for more, and she told him that if he could get Adela out of the way
he might become master of the whole of Frya's land.


[125/090] ca. 590 BC
Thêr heth er en burch ebuwad, Lindasburch hêten, vmbe dâna to wrekana vs lêth.
Daar heeft hij eene burgt gebouwd, Lindasburgt geheeten, om daar ons leed te wreken.
There he built a citadel named Lindasburgt, in order there to avenge our wrong.

[179/131] ca. 300 BC
Tha irtha bêterad was, kêm er en hêrtoga fon Lindasburch wêi, mit sin folk ånd en fâm,
thju fâm kêthe allomme: Thene Mâgy is skeldich an al-eth lêt thåt wi lêden håve.

Toen de aarde hersteld was, kwam er een hertog van Lindasburgt met zijn volk en eene maagd,
die alom uitriep: de Magy is schuldig aan al het leed, dat wij geleden hebben.
When the earth was composed there came a duke of Lindasburgt with his people, and one maiden
who cried everywhere, Magy is the cause of all the misery that we have suffered.

[199/147] ca. 300 BC
An tha sûdwester herne fon Skênland, thêr lêid Lindasburcht tonômath Lindasnôse,
thrvch vsa Apol stift, alsa in thit bok biskrêwen stât.

Aan de zuidwestelijke hoek van Schoonland, aldaar ligt Lindasburgt, toegenaamd Lindasneus,
door onzen Apol gesticht, gelijk in dit boek geschreven staat.
In the south-west point of Scandinavia there lies Lindasburgt, called Lindasnôse,
built by one [our] Apol, as is written in the book.


[073/050-051] ca. 2090 BC
Skênland blôst, slâvona folka stôppath vppat thin klât, o Frya. (...)
Fon-t êne dêl nis nên tâl to vs ne kêmen,
men thåt ôre dêl fyl åfter to vs Skênland.
Skênland was sunnich bifolkath, ånd anda åfter-kâd thåt sunnichste fon al.

Schoonland bloost, slavenvolken stappen op uw kleed, o Frya. (...)
Van het eene gedeelte is geen bericht tot ons gekomen,
maar het ander gedeelte viel achter in ons Schoonland.
Schoonland was schaars bevolkt en aan de achterkant het spaarzaamst van al.
Schoonland (Scandinavia) blushes, an enslaved people tramples on your garment, Frya. (...)
Of the one no account has come to us,
but the other came in the back of our Schoonland,
which was thinly inhabited, particularly the upper part.

[075/052] ca. 2090 BC
Thêr navt flya machton wrdon vrdên, Frya wårth anhropen,
men tha Skênlandar hêdon hira rêd warlâsed.

Die niet vlieden konden, werden gedood. Frya werd aangeroepen,
maar de Schoonlanders hadden haren raad verwaarloosd.
All who could not flee away were killed. Frya was appealed to,
but the Schoonlanders (Scandinavians) had neglected her advice.

[077/055] ca. 2000 BC
Afternêi håvon hja tha strêt Kâtsgat hêten.
Naderhand hebben zij die straat het Kattegat geheeten.
This strait was afterwards called the Kattegat.

[111/079] ca. 590 BC
Thrvch Wodins dor ånd dertenhêd was thene Magy bâs wrden ovir Skênlandis astardêl.
(...) Thju Moder wildet navt wêrha, hja sprêk ånde kêth, ik sja nên frêse an sina wêpne,
men wel vmbe tha Skênlander wêr to nimmande, thrvchdam hja bastered ånd vrdêren sind.

Door Wodins dwaze dartelheid, was de Magy meester geworden over het oosterdeel van Schoonland.
(...) De Moeder wilde het niet weren, zij sprak zeggende: Ik zie geen gevaar in zijne wapenen,
maar wel om de Schoonlanden weer te nemen, omdat zij verbasterd en verdorven zijn.
Through the mad wantonness of Wodin, Magy had become master of the east part of Scandinavia.
(...) The mother would not prevent it. She said, I see no danger in their weapons,
but much in taking the Scandinavians back again, because they are so degenerate and spoilt.

[113/081] ca. 590 BC
In stêde fon tha owera to biwâkande spandon hja hjara horsa for hjara togum ånd runon nêi Skênland thâ.
Tha Skênlander, tham nêy wêron nêi that land hjarar êthla kêmon nêi tha Dênemarkum.

In plaats van de oevers te bewaken, spanden hij hunne paarden voor hunne sleden, en reden naar Schoonland.
Doch de Schoonlanders, die begeerig waren naar het land hunner voorvaderen, kwamen naar de Denemarken.
Instead of watching on the shores, they put their horses in their sledges and drove off to Scandinavia.
Then the Scandinavians, who hungered after the land of their forefathers, came to Denmark.

[125/090] ca. 590 BC
Thâ is Apol min jungere brother fon hyr nêi thêre westsyde fon Skênlând fâren.
Toen is Apol mijn jongere broeder, van hier naar de westzijde van Schoonland gevaren.
Then my younger brother, Apol, sailed from here to the west side of Schoonland.

[149/109] ca. 590 BC
Êr wêron thêr mâr wêst, men sont wi Skênland miste, send hja nêi tha berga gvngon.
Voorheen waren er meer geweest, maar sedert wij Schoonland misten, zijn zij naar de bergen gegaan.
Formerly they were more numerous, but since we lost Schoonland they have gone up to the mountains.

[179/130] ca. 300 BC
Thit skrift is mij ower Nortland jeftha Skênland jêven.
Vndera tida thåt vs land del sêg, wêre ik to Skênland.

Dit geschrift is mij over Noordland of Schoonland gegeven.
Ten tijde dat ons land neder zonk, was ik in Schoonland.
This writing has been given to me about Northland and [or] Schoonland.
When our land was submerged I was in Schoonland.

[179/131] ca. 300 BC
Sont komath tha gode Northljud vâken to Texland vmb there Moder-is rêd.
Thâ wi ne mügath hjam for nêne rjuchta Fryas mar ne halde.

Sedert dien tijd komen de goede Noormannen dikwijls op Texland om raad van de Moeder.
Doch wij kunnen hen niet voor rechte Friezen meer houden.
Since that time the good Northmen come often to Texland for the advice of the mother;
still we cannot [no longer] consider them real Frisians [Fryas].

[219/161] ca. 270 BC
Thju tâle thêra Ast Skênlandar is thrvch tha wla Mâgjara vrbrûd;
thju tâle thêra Kaltana folgar is thrvch tha smûgrige Gole vrderven.

De taal der Oost Schoonlanders is door de vuile Magyaren verdraaid;
de taal der Keltana volgers is door de smerige Golen verdorven.
The language of the East Schoonlanders has been perverted by the vile Magyars,
and the language of the followers of Kaltana has been spoiled by the dirty Gauls.

[251/208] ca. 50 BC
Tha Saxmanna brochten hju ovir hjara marka, mith tha Juttar for hju nêi Skênland
ånd alingen thêre kâd fon tha Balda-sê, mith Askar his stjûrar for hju nêi Britanja.

De Saksmannen brachten ze over hunne marken; met de Jutten voer zij naar Schoonland
en langs de kusten van de Baltische zee; met Askar zijne zeelieden voer zij naar Brittannia.
The Saxsenmen took it over to their marches. The Jutlanders brought it to Schoonland
and along the coasts of the Baltic Sea, and with Askar's mariners it was taken to Britain.

### FYI:
I have written again to the research group of the Dutch Royal Library, that is about to publish the results of an examination of the paper and ink of the OLB.
The following shows that more similar research is having good results elsewhere:

Mysterious Voynich manuscript dates back to the 15th century

Researchers from the University of Arizona have discovered that the Voynich manuscript, which has been called “the world’s most mysterious manuscript,” was written sometime between 1404 to 1438. The findings were aired on a special documentary on the National Geographic Channel.

The Voynich manuscript was written by an unknown author, and is about 240 pages long. Its wording is called an “alien language” – the lettering does not even resemble other languages, while most pages contain images that depict optical phenomena, mystical drawings and meticulous zodiac maps.

Greg Hodgins, of the University of Arizona’s department of physics and leading member of a team that used radiocarbon dating to determine that text dates from the 15th century, was fascinated with the manuscript.

“Is it a code, a cipher of some kind? People are doing statistical analysis of letter use and word use – the tools that have been used for code breaking. But they still haven’t figured it out.”

The testing on the manuscript was done in 2009. To obtain the sample from the manuscript, Hodgins traveled to Yale University, where conservators had previously identified pages that had not been rebound or repaired and were the best to sample.

“I sat down with the Voynich manuscript on a desk in front of me, and delicately dissected a piece of parchment from the edge of a page with a scalpel,” Hodgins says.

He cut four samples from four pages, each measuring about 1 by 6 millimeters (roughly 1/32 by 1/4 inch) and brought them back to the laboratory in Tucson, where they were thoroughly cleaned.

“Because we were sampling from the page margins, we expected there are a lot of finger oils adsorbed over time,” Hodgins explains. “Plus, if the book was re-bound at any point, the sampling spots on these pages may actually not have been on the edge but on the spine, meaning they may have had adhesives on them.”

“The modern methods we use to date the material are so sensitive that traces of modern contamination would be enough to throw things off.”

Next, the sample was combusted, stripping the material of any unwanted compounds and leaving behind only its carbon content as a small dusting of graphite at the bottom of the vial.

“In radiocarbon dating, there is this whole system of many people working at it,” he said. “It takes many skills to produce a date. From start to finish, there is archaeological expertise; there is biochemical and chemical expertise; we need physicists, engineers and statisticians. It’s one of the joys of working in this place that we all work together toward this common goal.”

The UA’s team was able to push back the presumed age of the Voynich manuscript by 100 years, a discovery that killed some of the previously held hypotheses about its origins and history.

Elsewhere, experts analyzed the inks and paints that makes up the manuscript’s strange writings and images.

“It would be great if we could directly radiocarbon date the inks, but it is actually really difficult to do. First, they are on a surface only in trace amounts” Hodgins said. “The carbon content is usually extremely low. Moreover, sampling ink free of carbon from the parchment on which it sits is currently beyond our abilities. Finally, some inks are not carbon based, but are derived from ground minerals. They’re inorganic, so they don’t contain any carbon.”

“It was found that the colors are consistent with the Renaissance palette – the colors that were available at the time. But it doesn’t really tell us one way or the other, there is nothing suspicious there.”

While Hodgins is quick to point out that anything beyond the dating aspect is outside his expertise, he admits he is just as fascinated with the book as everybody else who has tried to unveil its history and meaning.

“The text shows strange characteristics like repetitive word use or the exchange of one letter in a sequence,” he says. “Oddities like that make it really hard to understand the meaning.”

“There are types of ciphers that embed meaning within gibberish. So it is possible that most of it does mean nothing. There is an old cipher method where you have a sheet of paper with strategically placed holes in it. And when those holes are laid on top of the writing, you read the letters in those holes.”

“Who knows what’s being written about in this manuscript, but it appears to be dealing with a range of topics that might relate to alchemy. Secrecy is sometimes associated with alchemy, and so it would be consistent with that tradition if the knowledge contained in the book was encoded. What we have are the drawings. Just look at those drawings: Are they botanical? Are they marine organisms? Are they astrological? Nobody knows.”

“I find this manuscript is absolutely fascinating as a window into a very interesting mind. Piecing these things together was fantastic. It’s a great puzzle that no one has cracked, and who doesn’t love a puzzle?”

The Voynich manuscript was featured on the National Geographic program Naked Science earlier this week.

### Posted 17 March 2011 - 08:42 AM
Otharus, on 13 October 2010 - 01:32 PM, said:

Note that there is a point (.) between "DRAMA" and "WR.ALDA.S" and that there is no point between "WR.ALDA.S" and "OD".

Overview of the various translations of "OD":
Haat; Hatred (Ottema 1876, Sandbach 1876, Snyman 1998)
Gottes Odem; God´s breath (Wirth 1933)
Geneugte; pleasure (Overwijn 1941)
Een spits; a phallic object (Jensma 1992)
Gelukzaligheid; bliss (Jensma 2006)
Licht; light (de Heer 2008)

Jensma was probably closest after all with his translation "gelukzaligheid" (bliss).

"Under the name Ódr, Odin is described as Freya`s first man. The name means “ecstatic frenzy” and characterizes him as a personification of this side of the fertility goddess` companion. Freya is called Ód`s bedvina – “Ód`s bed-girlfriend” by the bard Einar Skulason in the year 1100 A.D."

From: "Diser, nornor, valkyrjor – Fruktbarhetskult och sakralt kungadöme i Norden" (1954) by Folke Ström, translated by Maria Kvilhaug (Dísir, norns and valkyrias – Fertility cult and sacred kingship in the North by Folke Ström ~ Chapter 3: The Great Dís, the seidr and Odin)

### Posted 19 March 2011 - 07:23 AM
Otharus, on 15 March 2011 - 08:43 PM, said:
[077/055] ca. 2000 BC
Afternêi håvon hja tha strêt Kâtsgat hêten.
Naderhand hebben zij die straat het Kattegat geheeten.
This strait was afterwards called the Kattegat.

I missed one (some suggested improvements added):

[199/146] ca. 300 BC
Aftre grâte flod hwêr vr min tât skrêven heth,
wêron fêlo Juttar ånd Lêtne
mith ebbe uta Balda jefta kvade sê fored.
Bi Kât his gat drêvon hja in hjara kâna
mith yse vppa tha Dênemarka fåst
ånd thêr vp send hja sitten bilêwen. (...)
nêi hjara nôme håvon hja thåt land Juttarland hêten.

Na de groote vloed, waarover mijn vader geschreven heeft,
waren vele Jutten en Letten
met de ebbe uit de Balda of kwade zee gevoerd.
Bij Kathisgat dreven zij in hunne booten
met het ijs op de Denemarker[n] kust,
en zijn daar op blijven zitten. (...)
naar hunnen naam hebben zij het land Jut[tar]land geheeten.
After the great flood of which my father [dad] wrote an account,
there came many Jut[tar]landers and Let[ne]landers [had been driven]
[with the low tide] out of the Baltic, or bad [bold] sea.
They were driven down the Kattegat in their boats
by the ice as far as the coast of Denmark,
and there they remained. (...)
and named it after themselves, Jut[tar]land.

### Posted 19 March 2011 - 06:42 PM
I have come to the conclusion that mr. Vandemaele is wrong about (most of) his topography of the OLB.

Although it may be right that the 'Frisia' of the time of Willibrord, Boniface and Charles 'the great' (at least of the Medieval sources!) mostly has to be placed in the Calais area (as Delahaye proved), this cannot be true for the times described in the OLB.

In the OLB the 'Flymar' (Fly-lake) plays a central role, surounded by west-, east- and south-Flyland.

Near the mouth of the Fly (river between the Fly-lake and the sea), 'Almanland' and 'Wyringga' were located (p.83-85/59-60).

'Mêdêasblik' and 'Stâvora' were located at the Flymar (p.119/85).

I believe after all that the nowaday island 'Texel' used to be Frya's 'Texland', but in that time it used to be connected to Wyringga and Westflyland. Before 305 BC it also had land connected to it northwards.

This also means that present 'Den Burg' is probably built on what used to be 'old Fryasburg'.

I am preparing a better analysis of OLB's topography, but wanted to share something for now:

[Ottema & Sandbach p.159-161/ original p.115-117]

From the writings of
Frêthorik Oera-Linda, Asga to Ljudwardja,
about the big flood of 305 BC (see map):

Anna Wolfamônath lêidon tha Dênemarka fon Fryas lând vnder-ne sê bidobben.
Tha walda thêr bylda in wêron, wrdon vphyvath ånd thêr windum spel.
Thet jêr åfter kêm frost inna Herdemônath
ånd lêid ôld Fryas lând vnder en plônke skul.

In de Wolvenmaand (wintermaand) lagen de lage marken van Fryasland onder de zee bedolven.
De wouden, daar beelden in waren, werden opgeheven en een spel der winden.
Het jaar daarop kwam vorst in de Hardemaand (louwmaand)
en legde oud Fryasland onder een plank (ijsveld) verscholen.
In the Welvenmaand (winter month [dec.]) the low lands of Fryasland were buried under the sea.
The woods in which the images were, were torn up and scattered by the wind.
The following year the frost came in the Hardemaand (Louwmaand, January),
and laid [old] Fryasland concealed under a sheet of ice.

This means that "Dênemarka", mostly translated as "Denmark", can also refer to "low marks" or "low lands".

The term probably referred to all the flat and low lands between Calais and Jutland.

Otharus, on 15 March 2011 - 05:50 PM, said:
[ottema/Sanbach p.69/ original p.48]
Alle strând ånd skor hêmar fon-a Dênemarka alont thêre Såndfal nw Skelda
wrdon Stjurar, Sêkåmpar ånd Angelara hêton.
Alle strand en kustbewoners van de Denemarken af tot aan de Sandval, nu Schelde,
werden Stuurlieden, Zeekampers en Angelaren geheeten.
All those who lived [on beaches and shores] between Denmark and the Sandval, now the Scheldt,
were called Stuurlieden (pilots), Zeekampers (naval men), and Angelaren (fishermen).

### Posted 19 March 2011 - 07:03 PM
Otharus, on 19 March 2011 - 06:42 PM, said:
I believe after all that the nowaday island 'Texel' used to be Frya's 'Texland', but in that time it used to be connected to Wyringga and Westflyland. Before 305 BC it also had land connected to it northwards.

I also believe that Texandria/ Taxandria/ Toxandria (?) and "textile" are named after Texland.
And what about Thessaloniki?

### Posted 20 March 2011 - 03:50 AM
Otharus, on 19 March 2011 - 06:42 PM, said:
From the writings of
Frêthorik Oera-Linda, Asga to Ljudwardja,
about the big flood of 305 BC

I forgot to mention that the map was taken from the very good website (in the Dutch language) http://www.brucop.com/millennium/nederlands/toponyms/, by Dr.W.Bruijnesteijn van Coppenraet.

Here's some relevant translations, with some notes by me between [...]:

"According to the usual theory, Frisia in the time of the Roman occupation was roughly the present Netherlands north of the old Rhinestream (the limes). Climatologically it was a regression period and a huge sweetwaterlake, Flevo or Almere [in OLB: "Flymar"], was in the center. After the Romans left (ca.250 AD), and without doubt related to the increasing transgression, that wasted much of their lands, the Frisians moved their territtory more to the inlands: southwards with Zeeland and the river area [and Flandres?], east to the Weser (East-Friesland) and later (8th century even up to Sleeswijk. (...) Neighbours were south the Franks and east the Saxons. The Frisians also founded a colony in Brittania, Northumberland, from where in the 7th and 8th century missionaries came to their old lands [mostly to Flandres?]. The Franks always hated the Frisians. Already ca. 574 the Frankish king Chilperik I was praised for his terror against the Frisians:

You are the terror of the far Frisians and Suevans,
who are not only unprepared for war,
but even ask for your protection.


The assumption that Utrecht already existed in the period 600-640 and was temporary in Frankish hands is based on quicksand. In 697 Frisia started to finally really fall apart and Frisia citerior, the southern part up to the Rhine, was taken by the Frankish Pepin II. Ca. 719 his successor Karel Martel crossed the old limes en marched up to the Almere. In 736 the same Karel Martel attacked the Frisians in the back with a fleet and by winning the "Borne battle" he occupied the area up to the Eems river. The remaining eastern area, already disintegrated and taken over by the Saxons, finally was taken by the Franks, together with all of the Saxon lands, between 770 and 800 by Charles 'the great'. The terms Frisia and Frisii remained in use, but now as a Christian people, submitted under Frankish rule. After a period of invasions by the Normans [attempts to free the Frisians?], the whole area of the Frisians, from Walcheren to Eems, was part of the "Imperium Danicum", the empire of the Vikings, during the second half of the 9th century, but this was under supervision of the Frankish emperor.
The highly indoctrinating traditional science, that has evolved from the primitive historiography of the late Middle Ages, often gives an unsatisfying view on the geography of our lands in the first millennium. At the other side, the vision of Albert Delahaye, who radically moved the geography to North France, is also far from satisfying. A "semi-traditional" view, that accepts that Delahaye went too far with his revision of the historical geography, but that also accepts that the Nether-lands in that area was subject to heavy transgressions and therefore mostly flooded, at least climatologically not habitable, is presented in publications by Kreijns and Pirson, Van Veen and Bruijnesteijn v.C."

### Posted 20 March 2011 - 04:33 AM
Abramelin, on 19 March 2011 - 07:57 PM, said:
Otharus, the map you posted (I guess it's from the book you just read) is based on an outdated theory, the Dunkirk Transgressions:

For general information (in Dutch):
For more specific (and scientific) information (again, in Dutch): (link now lost)
So although it's a nice map, it does not represent the real situation back then.

The map shows in blue what would be flooded now if there were no dykes, the green areas are flooded with a +5 m flood and the yellow areas with a +10 m flood.

I used it not in relation to the transgression theory, that is under debate (Wiki also says OLB is a hoax, so it's not a neutral source), but to give an idea of what the area may have looked like during the 305 BC flood.

About Texel: archeologists have found proof of habitation from 900 BC and onwards. (...)
(...) Tussen de toplaag en de bodemkant van de diepst gelegen laag 4 (dekzand met bewoningssporen uit de prehistorie en later), liggen laag 2 en 3 die respectievelijk ophogingslagen en sporen bevatten uit de Late Middeleeuwen en de Vroege Middeleeuwen. (...)

The survey was made for (and paid for by) the local government of Texel, that wanted to build something new (as far as I understand). Their goal was not to find remains. But I'll have a look at the report.

### Posted 20 March 2011 - 04:42 AM
Abramelin, on 19 March 2011 - 08:00 PM, said:
Heh, you should have added that Texel is also spelled/pronounced as "Tessel".

That is correct, thanks for adding that. I often forget to mention what is obvious (to me).

But are you suggesting that people from 'Texland' (or Tessel-land) went to what was later to be known as Thessaloniki??

Well, according to OLB people from old-Frisia (that had old Fryasburg on Texland as their 'capital') went to that area and founded Athena.

If that is true, it's easy to imagine that many names from the old area would be re-used in what is now Greece. Same goes for other colonies, like North-east India. Vandemaele's book has many nice examples. I will make a post with some of my favorites.

### Posted 20 March 2011 - 08:35 AM
Abramelin, on 19 March 2011 - 07:57 PM, said:
For more specific (and scientific) information (again, in Dutch)

From this article ("Het fysisch-geografisch onderzoek en de ontstaansgeschiedenis van westelijk Zeeuws-Vlaanderen: een status quaestionis" by Geuch de Boer):

"During the Roman occupation, the 'Suevo-Flemmish' (Zeeuws-Vlaamse) coastal area consisted of a wide bog-marsh [* see note], but within only a few centuries, it was transformed into an utterly dynamic 'shore-area' with 'slicks', plateaus and active streams where the sea could play freely. Up until a few decades ago, the cause of this was considered to be exclusively natural - change of climate, increase of the frequency of storms, increase of the relative sea level - but nowadays it becomes ever more clear that the inhabitants of the coastal plains, from the Roman times on, have had a major influence on the developments of the landscape."

[* Note: up until the early 20th century, this "bog" was dried to serve as fuel.
Bog is organic material, which means it must have been the remains of a long period of forested land?]

In other words; the increasing floods were mostly a result of the use (or abuse?) of the land by people.

This may have been the case for the whole of what is now the Netherlands.

(Even the use of gas (as fuel) from the bubble under our earth, may result (or have resulted) in sinking of the land...)

So, whether it is called transgressions or differently, fact is that after the Roman occupation, a few hundred years of big floods followed, until our ancestors started to build dykes and litterally "reclaim" land.

### Posted 20 March 2011 - 08:39 AM
Abramelin, on 19 March 2011 - 08:00 PM, said:
But are you suggesting that people from 'Texland' (or Tessel-land) went to what was later to be known as Thessaloniki??

More on Texel and its varieties:

Vandemaele p.58:
"... Texland of Texalia, het huidige Escalles bij Calais, volgens Ptolomeus himself Tecelia geheten, ten noorden van Boulogne."

"... Texland of Texalia, nowaday Escalles near Calais, according to Ptolomeus himself called Tecelia, north of Boulogne."

Dr.Bruijnesteijn made a reconstructive map, using the estimated coordinates by Ptolomeus. See added fragment.

He places Ptolomeus' Tecalia near the mouth of the Wisurgis (Weser or OLB's Wrsara).

Which one is right? Or both? Or none?
It all seems possible with the many migrations that have taken place.

### Posted 20 March 2011 - 09:40 AM
About the argument that something should have been found by archaeology.

In the Westfrisian village where I was born and raised, Wijdenes, the Hollandic count Floris V had a castle built after he had finally conquered the Westfrisians in the late 13th century.

According to oral tradition, it would have been built on the remains of an earlier 'castle' from the Danish or viking founder of the village Roelof, Roeland or Rodulf (etc.).

The coat of arms of Wijdenes/ Wydenes/ Wyns/ Venes/ Wienesse/ Vornes (etc.) still has a (chess game style) tower as a reminder of this time.

There are theories that (part of) the village used to be located in what is now the Markermeer (earlier: Zuiderzee, resp. IJsselmeer).

There has been a lot of searching for remains or foundations of this 13th century castle (-700 BP), but nothing significant has been found yet. Yet, there is no doubt that is once existed.

Therefore, I am not so surprised that nothing has been found yet, of the era -4200 till -2000 BP.

### Posted 21 March 2011 - 08:21 AM
Otharus, on 15 March 2011 - 08:43 PM, said:

Missed yet another interesting reference to SKÊNLAND (Scandinavia).
Probably (the area of) Uppsala in Sweden is meant:

[Ottema&Sandbach p.6/ original p.3]

Men sin ljuda dêdon mâr:
bern wrdon to sok makad,
nei vpsalândum wêibrocht,
ånd sâhwersa hja vpbrocht wêron an sina vvla lêr,
thån wrdon hja to bek sendon.

Maar zijne lieden deden meer;
kinderen werden te zoek gemaakt,
naar de bovenlanden weggevoerd,
en nadat zij opgevoed waren in zijne verderfelijke leer,
dan werden zij terug gezonden.
His people did even more.
Children disappeared,
were taken away to the uplands,
and after they had been brought up in his pernicious doctrines,
were sent back.

### Posted 21 March 2011 - 06:30 PM
Abramelin, on 21 March 2011 - 01:05 PM, said:
I was thinking... the king/leader of the Huns/Magyar was Attila.
In Scandinavia his name was "Atla" or 'Atli" (see the Snorri Edda).

Attila the Hun lived in the 5th century.
I don't see how he can have anything to do with Atland.
I think his name may very well be another version of the OLB name "ADEL".

### Posted 22 March 2011 - 07:41 AM
The following contains some interesting fragments, i.m.o.:

The dawn of the Scandinavian Bronze Age has been traced back to the 16th century B.C and lasted for a thousand years before it was gradually evolved into the Iron Age of the fifth century B.C. The population of Scandinavia of that time is supposed to have consisted of a fusion of groups native to the area from the earliest Neolithic period and of immigrant groups known as the “Battle Axe people” who apparently emerged from east-central Europe and who settled in the Baltic and in Scandinavia during the Neolithic period. Hallmarks of their culture were the battle-axes and individual burials.
Indo-European language and culture was certainly dominant in Scandinavia by the time of the Iron Age.

That it was so even in the Bronze Age seems very plausible, also that there were certain likenesses in culture between the Scandinavian upper classes and those of southern Europe such as the aristocratic Greeks who produced the heroic poetry of the Iliad and the Odyssey. There was certainly a great deal of trade and travel between the North and South during the Bronze Age, and even ideas and cultic practice were being exchanged. Labyrinth symbols from Crete have been found in rock carvings in the north of Norway, dating back to the time of the Minoan civilization. Symbols of Sacred Marriage were common all over Scandinavia during the Bronze Age, another link to Mediterranean and Middle Eastern religions. As illustrated by the image above, the Scandinavian Sacred Marriage was often depicted in burial chambers or on the lids of burial urns – showing that the Sacred Marriage as a symbol was, in some way or other, associated with resurrection and the afterlife already then.

We know that the divine pantheon of the Iliad, and even many of the rituals described there - supposedly a very old story even when it was written down sometime during the eight century B.C - had its clear continuity in the religion and cults of the Greeks far into the Roman Age, only to disappear through the victory of the Church. The lack of literary evidence means that we know comparatively little of the pantheon of the Scandinavian Bronze Age and how it may have continued, changed or vanished as the Iron Age evolved.

The continuity of cults through the ages

That some level of continuity in religion and cult is possible is shown, among other things, through the works of Tacitus who wrote about the German tribes around the year 80 A.D. His descriptions of religion and cult are certainly recognizable in other descriptions of Germanic peoples written down even more than a thousand years later. Texts written down in the 13th century A.D also relate stories that may be recognized from picture stones reaching more than six hundred years back in time before they were written down. Heroic poems featuring historical characters such as Attila the Hun, who died in 451 A.D, still flourished in the 13th century A.D.

It would certainly be possible to prove that cult, mythology and religion in general often have a “life-span” of several thousand years in the history of religions, looking for example at the figure of Ishtar-Inanna and the associated cult of Sacred Marriage which lasted for thousands of years and reached into many other cultures in the Middle-East, the Mediterranian, even England, Ireland and Scandinavia. I think we should not underestimate the power of continuity in poetry, cult, religion and pantheons in ancient times.

Indeed, it would be remarkable if the Norse pantheon of gods such as Ódinn, Thor, Freyr and Freyia just popped up from nothing sometime before the Viking Age, while the previous gods simply vanished. It is tempting to suggest that even if the names of these deities changed, their essential functions and attributes did not.

Divine emblems of the Bronze Age reappear in the Viking Age Pantheon

In the artistic works of the Scandinavian Bronze Age, certain types of symbols appear and reappear throughout the whole period. The four symbols of major concern to this article are the following: disk (sun-disk), axe or hammer, spear and sword. The symbols have obvious reference to cult and worship and are often found together, the symbols apparently driving in a chariot or being aboard a ship.
The Sun and the Souls

The idea of the sun as female is actually dominant in Scandinavia since the the Saami also spoke of a “Sun-Maiden”, Beaivi-Nieida, who according to some traditions was the single origin of all souls, carried to earth on her sun-rays. Indeed, all souls were feminine in their origin, changed to men only while in the mother´s womb. The Great Goddess as Sun may have been a Finno-Ugric influence on Scandinavian religion.

From: The Sun Goddess and the Roots of the Bronze Age in Norse Mythology, by Maria Kvilhaug


Posted 22 March 2011 - 11:08 AM
Abramelin, on 22 March 2011 - 06:59 AM, said:
But Ottema assumed it meant spacious.
It's "Rome, aka "Rum".
NOT Rome, aka Spacious".

Sorry Abe, you are wrong, Ottema was right.

ROME, THAT IS RUM (= spacious!)
===>>> see reading exercises

### Posted 22 March 2011 - 11:26 AM
What is said is this, basically:

een stad, geheten Rome, dat is 'ruim'
a city, named Rome, that is 'room' (space)

### Posted 22 March 2011 - 06:43 PM
OERA SKELDA ~ Over the Schelde

[original p.62]
[Ottema/Sandbach p.87]
Over de Schelde op de Flyburgt, zat Sijrhed
On the other side of the Scheldt, at Flyburgt, Sijrhed presided

Here "over the Scheldt" means: on the South side of the Scheldt, because the story is told from the perspective of Walhallagara (Walcheren on one of the "Seven Islands"). The "Fly-" of the name "Flyburch" cannot refer to the (same) river Fly as from the Flymar and the Flymvda elsewhere in the text. It probably means "flee" here as in "to escape". Much later in the text (and in time) there is a Fly- or Wêraburch in the Krylwald near Ljvwerde (original p.206, Ottema/Sandbach p.247).
What would be a possible location for a Flyburch south of the Scheldt?
Considering the fact that convicted criminals were given the chance to "flee" to Britain, I would guess that the Flyburch should have been close to Calais.

===>>> see reading exercises

And now... my favorite part of this post:

As I showed earlier, in the OLB the whole area between Jutland and the Scheldt is sometimes referred to as "Denemarka".
The 'Dani' probably have lived all over the coast from Jutland down to Normandy.

I would like to suggest that the legendary Scyldings from the BEOWULF-epic were a 'Danish' royal family whose unexplained name can be related to the SKELDE/ SKELDA/ Scheldt/ Schelde area.

I was surprised that even Joel Vandemaelle, who created many alternative (and sometimes very far-fetched) etymologies, did not mention this possibility in his book "Het BEOWULF-epos ~ Angelsaksisch of Fries-Saksisch erfgoed van omstreeks 500 uit Frans-Vlaanderen".

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