23 April 2011

Forum # 5 (mar. 23 - apr. 4, 2011)

Posted 23 March 2011 - 09:30 AM
Abramelin, on 22 March 2011 - 10:27 PM, said:
OK, an example of a 'vliedberg' and maybe a 'flyburg' :

Very nice, thanks.
You're right about "Vlied-", but a -burch is not a -berg, although many will have been built on one.
Since Kalta's Flyburg was an important place for trading writing-felt (schrijf-vilt), it will have had a harbor.
Where would this have been?

### Posted 23 March 2011 - 03:06 PM
Abramelin, on 23 March 2011 - 02:06 PM, said:
OK, I'll have a good look:

Transliteration by Ottema:
As tha bêda nêva-t-althus navt ênes wrde koste, gvng Tünis to aend stek en râde fône in-t strând, aend Inka êne blâwe. Thêr aefter macht jahwêder kjasa, hwam ek folgja wilde, aend wonder, by Inka thêr en gryns hêde vmbe tha kaeningar fon Findas folk to thjanja, hlipon tha mâsta Finna aend Mâgjara ovir. As hja nw thaet folk tellath aend tha skêpa thêr nêi dêlath hêde, tha skêdon tha flâta fon ekkorum; fon nêf Tünis is aefternêi tâl kêmen, fon nêf Inka ninmer.

Translation using the Deutsches Rechtwoerterbuch:
As tha beda neva ‘t ‘althvs navt enes wrde koste , gvng Tvnis to and stek en rade fone in ‘t strand , and Inka ene blawe . Ther after macht iahweder kiasa , hwam ek folgia wilde , and wonder , bi Inka ther en grins hede vmbe tha kaningar fon Findas folk to thiania , hlipon tha masta Finna and Magiara ovir . As hia nw that folk tellath and tha skepa ther nei delath hede , tha skedon tha flata fon ekkorvm; fon nef Tvnis is afternei tal kemen , fon nef Inka ninmer .

So according to you this is either a lie, or it is wrong...

According to this so-called 'translation', it is not similar, but exactly the same (apart from the accents).
Now don't you think that would have been noticed by any previous researcher?

I tried three words on http://drw-www.adw.u...delberg.de/drw/, with this result:

nêva = 'neva' wurde im Index nicht gefunden (= not found)
fône = 'fone' wurde im Index nicht gefunden.
kjasa, = 'kjasa' wurde im Index nicht gefunden.

Knul did not explain how he did it.
Therefore I cannot say where he went wrong.

I analysed these dialects earlier, for example, see:

Otharus, on 16 January 2011 - 02:57 PM, said:
If anyone else is interested in comparing three known versions of Old-Frisian (ca. 12th century), here's some links:
Londriuht (Rüstringer) (not dated as far as I know, but probably from ca. 12 century)
Landriocht (Westerlauwers)
Land- and Skeltana Riucht (Westfrisian)

The Rüstringer dialect does NOT seem to be more similar to the OLB language than the other dialects. The old-Westfrisian dialect actually seems to be closest related. At first sight all three varieties seem to share the language of the OLB as a common ancestor. A thorough examination may prove this to be right.

The following is a sample of the Rüstringer dialect, taken from the link above, with the there provided German translation as well as my improvised English translation. As usual I try to stay close to the original rather than write good English. I have converted the original into capitals for an easier comparison with the OLB language.

Hier ist geschrieben,
Here is written,
daß wir Friesen solches Landrecht haben und halten,
that we Frisians have and hold such landright (-law),
wie Gott selber es setzte, und Er gebot,
as God himself put it, and commanded,
daß wir alle gesetzlichen Bestimmungen und alle Rechtssatzungen halten sollten.
that we will have all ... thing and all right-thing.

My conclusion was that all dialects have things in common with the OLB language, but Rostringer LESS SO than the other varieties. See underlined fragment in the above quote.

### Posted 23 March 2011 - 03:13 PM
Abramelin, on 23 March 2011 - 02:02 PM, said:
Btw, as you have read, I translated the word RUM using a Gothic and Old German dictionary to which the 'Taaldacht' site links to. From that site I also tried to use the Old Norse, Old Frisian and Old English dictionary, but I could not find a RUM there...

Ruim/ Ruimte - Dutch
Rymden - Swedish
Rum - Danish
Raum - German

### Posted 23 March 2011 - 03:32 PM
Abramelin, on 23 March 2011 - 02:11 PM, said:
But I think your objection against that possibility is based on the fact that many of these VLIEDBERG changed into motte castles.. only during the middle ages.

And that would give somewhat of a problem for the true age of the OLB.

I don't see how that would be a problem.

But anyway...

No, it's more that a "burcht" from where international felt-trade took place must have been bigger than what would have fitted on a terp/ hill like the ones on your images. Also they must have had a harbor.

Wiltenburg or Viltenburg is thought to have preceeded (and/or having been close to) Utrecht, but I believe Delahaye was right to place it near the West-Flemmish Trajectum (now Tournehem), at the coast of Pas-de Calais. If that is true, it might be a good candidate for the location of Kelta's Flyburg.

### Posted 23 March 2011 - 03:40 PM
Abramelin, on 23 March 2011 - 03:22 PM, said:
But not in Old Norse, Old Frisian and Old English.

And did the word show up in Sweden and Denmark in ancient times?

One should say so, because the Gothic language must have had close ties with Sweden and Denmark.

I would not know how to check that online, but look what I found in my files:

nach Romulus und Remus - das waren die beiden Brüder,
after Romulus and remus, that were the twin brothers,
die Rom zuerst erbauten - Julius und Octavianus;
who first founded Rome, Julius and Octavianus,

(from the Rustringer 10 commandments)

### Posted 23 March 2011 - 05:12 PM
Abramelin, on 23 March 2011 - 04:26 PM, said:
About that 'brown shield':
Then he hoisted up his brown shield, and sailed straight to our fleet.

Aha, so I should have done a quick 'control-F'.

I did not study that Klaas Kolyn rhimechronical yet.
I would not be surprised if that turns out to be authentic too.

About the other two:
Have you ever read an old Norse saga? Very different style than OLB. Apart from the Frya - Freya and Wodin - Odin (vague) connection, there's no similarity at all in style.
And no Godfried the Old, nor wooden bonds in OLB.

### Posted 23 March 2011 - 05:22 PM
Abramelin, on 23 March 2011 - 05:04 PM, said:
This is all the OLB says about this Godfried:

The Witkoning—that is, the Sea-king Godfried the Old—made separate numbers for the set hand and for the runic hand.

The OLB never says when this Godfried lived, so it could have been the one who was a contemporary of Liko

No, that part is from the Adela's Followers' Book, compiled in the 6th century BC, that is almost 1,5 millennium before Knul's Godfried.

Besides, inventing a script for numbers is quite different from putting wooden bonds around Frisians their necks...

More dogs are called "Fikkie". (Dutch expression)

Think of how many king Willems we have had in the last few hundred years.

EDIT: the text about Godfried was copied in the 6th century BC, but it does indeed not say when he lived. At least it was before the 6th c. BC.

### Posted 23 March 2011 - 06:34 PM
Otharus, on 23 March 2011 - 05:12 PM, said:
I did not study that Klaas Kolyn rhimechronical yet.
I would not be surprised if that turns out to be authentic too.

Browsing through this 'Klaas Kolyn Chronical', I find some interesting material.
One could find more 'similarities' with OLB than the ones Knul mentioned, but one could also find many differences.
All depends on what wants to be proven. Just like with the Frisian so-called 'fantastic' historiography, part is based on facts, part on fantasy. It's a terrible shame that everything has always been dismissed because a part is not understood and it contains a few fragments of allegory (dragons and mermaids). It seems obvious that the roots for this ridiculing the 'unofficial' history are political.

It looks like this KK-chronical too must have some roots in true history, but every 'historian' and copyist, just like the ones who compiled (and copied) the OLB, has his/ her motives. I have read enough K(n)ul to see that his way of reasoning has some major flaws. I don't trust his conclusions.

It's late, I'm tired, but her's a few fragments of KK.

[16]Toe de Nedergouwen waren
Van de wateren overlopen

When the Nethermarks were
flooded by waters

[19]Gaulen en Spangen ave te lopen

Golen/ Golar! and ...

[138]Al die gouen heten Neêrsassen.
Tot zi van ti wilde Vrisen
Harde geklopt na wych verlisen,
Wiltenborch haben begeven,
Ende zunt over ade getreven.
Zo das 't lant hi[er] al te zamen
Namaels hite Frieslant by name.

All those marks were called 'Nethersaxonia'.
Till they by the wild Vrisen (Frisians)
... after some losses,
Wiltenborch [!] ...,
So that the land alltogether here
afterwards was called Frieslant.

[189] Tot di Gaulen overgingen
En de Francken naem ontfingen.
Till the Golar went over
and received the name Franks.

### Posted 23 March 2011 - 06:55 PM
Abramelin, on 23 March 2011 - 06:43 PM, said:
I found the site (I googled a sentence of your quote): http://www.klaaskoli...stvanloon.html.
Is it of any use here?

I wonder if there's a translation around...
Would be interesting for bloody sure. (I start to sound like you LOL)

And what do you think about what I said about Godried the Witking?

The one from the 9th century AD may even be named after the old (the REALLY old) Godfried.
(Just like Ocko van Scharle may have been named (directly or indirectly) AFTER Okke Oera Linda and Beda/ st.Bede after Beden from OLB.)

### Posted 24 March 2011 - 05:58 AM
Alewyn, on 23 March 2011 - 09:20 PM, said:
"Witkonig" in the OLB means "Wise king" as "wit" in English meaning, inter alia, "intelligence".

See also OLB's "wis" meaning "wise" in English or "wischap" in OLB meaning "wisdom". Hence our present day term "Wetenschap" (Afrikaans: "Wetenskap") or English "Science".

I would therefore guess that a "witkonig" was a type of academic (professor?), philosopher or sage.

Interesting theory, Alewyn, but I don't think it's correct.
Here's what I found:
===>>>> see reading exercises

Footnotes Jensma:
( * ) King - the wetking or seaking or viking is meant; see #5 of these laws.
( ** ) Wetking (Dutch: natkoning) - Etymology of 'viking', that would stem from the OLB-language and actually mean 'king of the wet'; a combination of:
1) English 'wet' (Dutch: nat), and/or Northfrisian 'wiet' (English: wet)
2) English 'king' (Dutch: koning)
This etymology may have been inspired by the Oldfrisian 'Witsing' = Norman, Viking
( *** ) Wetking - Seaking or viking
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
I thinks this proves clearly that, according to OLB,
the etymology of Viking = Witking = Wetking = Waterking or Seaking.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
It is also clear that in OLB the meaning of both SÉKENING and WITKÉNING or WITKING is leader of the sea-army or trading fleet, different from the later use of the word "viking", where it is no longer only the leader. Also, "kening" or "king" is not the same as our "king" as they had this position only for a limited period.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
The more common word used in OLB for seaking is "SÉKENING".
Would there have been a difference in use?
===>>>> see reading exercises

### Posted 24 March 2011 - 06:56 AM
The Puzzler, on 24 March 2011 - 02:29 AM, said:
Claudius Ptolemy located the Sicambri, together with the Bructeri Minores, at the most northern part of the Rhine and south of the Frisians who inhabit the coast north of the river. Strabo located the Sicambri next to the Menapii, “who dwell on both sides of the river Rhine near its mouth, in marshes and woods. It is opposite to these Menapii that the Sicambri are situated". So the Sicambri must have lived at the lower Rhine in what is now called the Netherlands.

Zeekampers † (naval men),
Sêkâmpar, in Latin Sicambri.

This reminded me of something else; the etymology of "marsaci".

Could it be OLB's "Mârsâta", which i.m.o. would rather be marsh-dwellers, than lake-dwellers?

history of Low Countries (in history of Low Countries: The Roman period)
...arrival of the Romans brought about a number of movements: the Batavi came to the area of the lower reaches of the Rhine, the Canninefates to the western coastal area of the mouth of the Rhine, the Marsaci to the islands of Zeeland, the Toxandri to the Campine (Kempenland), the Cugerni to the Xanten district, and the Tungri to part of the area originally inhabited by the Eburones.

### Posted 24 March 2011 - 07:12 AM
Alewyn, on 23 March 2011 - 10:03 PM, said:
The Book of Adela's followers was written long before the Vikings. There is absolutely no connection between Viking and Witkonig

I think the connection may be mostly etymological.

The vikings saw themselves and/or were seen as heroes of the sea.

Similarly, the tribal name Sicambri started as Sekampar (sea-warriors), Heruli started as Herljud (army people), Frisians started as Fryas (free people or Frya's people) etcetera. Language gradually evolves and words get (slightly or sometimes radical) different meanings.

OLB has so many plausible explanations for words, personal names and toponyms that this alone ( I mean all of them together) could serve as proof that it must be authentic. Every word has an origin, they are not made up at random. OLB often has better, more credible explanations than the existing etymology.

### Posted 24 March 2011 - 07:15 AM
The Puzzler, on 24 March 2011 - 07:08 AM, said:
Landzaten (natives of the land), Marzaten * (natives of the fens), and Woud or Hout zaten (natives of the woods).

The Fens, also known as the Fenland(s), are a naturally marshy region in eastern England. Most of the fens were drained several centuries ago, resulting in a flat, damp, low-lying agricultural region.

In Dutch we have the related words:

Ven = mere (undeep lake)
Veen = bog

### Posted 24 March 2011 - 10:01 AM
Alewyn, on 24 March 2011 - 09:34 AM, said:
Thanks Otharus. You have convinced me that a Witking and a Seaking are the same.
It also seams quite plausible that Viking could be a derivative of Witkening

That was my pleasure. Thank you for the confirmation.

I'm still thinking about the connection between WITSKIP (wisdom) and WITKING as I believe there is one, somehow...

English: wet / water / know (have wisdom)/ wisdom / fish / white
Norwegian: våt / vann / vet / visdom / fisk / hvit
Swedish: våt / vatten / veta, veten / visdom / fisk / vit
Danish: våd / vand / viden / visdom / fisk / hvid
German: nass / Wasser / wissen / Weisheit / Fisch / Weiß
Dutch: nat / water / weten / wijsheid / vis/ wit

### Posted 24 March 2011 - 02:33 PM
The Puzzler, on 24 March 2011 - 10:23 AM, said:
See my post above, I respect your efforts but think it actually might say as I said - the All-Seeing/All-Knowing King - the Sea-King Godfried the Old....?

This time I'll only give the English version.
(Sandbach p.75)
"Wodin, the eldest, lived at Lumkamakia, near the Eemude, in Oost-
flyland, with his parents. He had once commanded troops.
Tennis and Inka were naval warriors, and were just then
staying with their father at Aldergamude. When the
young warriors had assembled together, they chose Wodin
to be their leader or king, and the naval force chose Teu-
nis for their sea-king and Inka for their admiral."

With your reasoning it might as well mean White-king as "wit" in Dutch means white.
(Did you read that "wiet" in North-Frisian means water?)

### Posted 24 March 2011 - 03:05 PM
The Puzzler, on 24 March 2011 - 10:23 AM, said:
With your reasoning it might as well mean White-king as "wit" in Dutch means white.

Actually, the word may have already been ambiguous at that time, since WITSKIP indeed meant wisdom and WITTE meant white.

White and wit (as in wise) may be related like this:

seeing things white = bright = light or clear

But if indeed the word evolved into Viking, which seems obvious, the association with the sea (wet water) makes most sense.

Masters, rulers of the seas.

### Posted 24 March 2011 - 03:25 PM
The Puzzler, on 24 March 2011 - 03:16 PM, said:
The sea-king, the sea-king Godfried.

No, it's the knowing (wita) King, the Sea King Godfried.

No, you don't read it properly.
Again (made more simple):

De Witkoning, dat is Zeekoning, Godfried de oude
The Witkening, that is SeaKening, Godfried the Old

The Witking (that means Seaking) Godfried the Old.
OLB uses this construction many times to explain how words are synonyms.

### Posted 25 March 2011 - 06:52 AM
Alewyn, on 09 March 2011 - 06:28 AM, said:
If there is one quote from the OLB that would make me doubt the authenticity of the OLB, it is the following (my translation):

“They must be told of the heroes, of their galant deeds and distant sea voyages. All these stories must be told by the hearth and in the field, wherever it may be, both the joy and the sorrow. If men is to become steadfast in the brain and the heart, then all teaching about this must stream from your wives and your daughters.”

I find it difficult to believe that they knew the function of the brain 2500 years ago, let alone the difference between knowledge (the brain) and emotions (the heart).

The brain is mentioned six times in the OLB.
Its spelling seems to have evolved from BRYN into BRÉIN.
I suspect an etymological relation with the Dutch words "brij" (porridge), "breien" (to knit) and maybe even the french soft cheese "brie".
====>>>> see reading exercises
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Many people believe that in ancient times, people were less intelligent or had less knowledge.
But if one imagines how Roman emperors and later the Vatican (again Rome) had whole libraries full of ancient knowledge burnt and destroyed (and stolen?), it's easy to see that this is not true. (Many of them also burnt by accident ofcourse.)

Knowledge is indeed power, so when emperors and religious leaders wanted to have monopoly and dominate peoples (that is: make them into their slaves), one of their tactics was to take away peoples sources of it. When one has control of what people know, one has (more) control of what they think and thus, (more control) of what they will do.

I agree with Abramelin that it's not so hard to imagine that ancient cultures had a word for it and related it to thinking.

Since some of the most obvious organs and senses we use to process and exchange information; the eyes, ears, nose, tongue and lips are all located in the head, it's quite obvious, that the organ 'in charge' is the brain.

### Posted 25 March 2011 - 07:06 AM
Abramelin, on 24 March 2011 - 03:31 PM, said:
But it's interesting the Frisan word for Viking is Witsing.

I think this is one of the most important clues.

And the 'wit' in 'witkening'/'witkoning'/'witking' could simply mean white, and nothing to do with water at all.

it does not have to be either/ or.
Like I said, it may very well have been ambiguous.
They loved that and we still do.
From the context I gave in my post with all the quotes, it became obvious that the word was used as a synonym of Seaking.

And here is how Frya is being described:

Frya. Was wit lik snêi bij-t môrnerâd ånd thåt blâw hjrar ôgnum wn-et jeta thêre rêinbôge of.

"Frya was white.."

Frya. Was wit lik snêi bij-t môrnerâd ånd thåt blâw hjrar ôgnum wn-et jeta thêre rêinbôge of.

White like snow at morning-red (before sunrise) = pinkish.

For some time today I have googled "white king", and aside from a zillion chess hits, I found only one line of kings with the nickname "White", and they were all Vikings.

One of them is Olav the White, King of Dublin.

One of the best movies I have ever seen:
The White Viking (1991), Hvíti víkingurinn (original title), by Hrafn Gunnlaugsson (Iceland)

If I remember it correctly, in this movie, that describes the time of the Christenings, the vikings who believed that Jesus Christ was a reincarnation of Odin called him the "White Christ".

### Posted 25 March 2011 - 07:11 AM
The Puzzler, on 24 March 2011 - 03:49 PM, said:
The Witkoning—that is, the Sea-king Godfried the Old
I still think it works,
The All Knowing King, that is, Sea-King Godfried the Old.

You are moving the comma's (dots in the manuscript).
by doing that, you can manipulate and change any text.
The correct sentence is:
The Witking, that is Seaking, Godfried the Old

### Posted 26 March 2011 - 02:33 AM

1. the first meaning of WIT = white (dutch: wit, german: weiss)
[examples p.9/19: "FRYA. WAS WIT LIK SNÉI" = Frya was white like snow

2. in the combination WITSKIP, it has an association with knowing or seeing; with wit or wisdom (dutch: wetenschap or wijsheid, german: wissenshaft or weissheit)
But it is also used seperate in the meaning of knowledge.
[p.62/25: "MIN.ERVA NÉDE THÉR NÉN WIT FON"; dutch: "Minerva had daar geen weet van"]
Now WIT has become ambiguos: white and wit (wise)

3. in the combination WITKENING or WITKING, it has become even more ambiguous (more associations):
Dutch: witkoning (white-king), weetkoning (wise-king), weterkoning (water-king)
German: weisskonig (white-king AND wise-king!), wasserkonig (waterking)
English: whiteking, witking, wetking
Through the context in which the word WITKENING and WITKING is used, it becomes clear that although he may have been white and wise (the original meanings), most important was that he was commander (king) of the fleet, whether is was a warfleet or a trading fleet. Therefore, WITKING became synonymus with SEEKING.
Best example: p.45/17: "THER WITKÉNING. THÀT IS SÉKÉNING"

Now think of the latin word VIDERE = to see or to know (video = I see). The root is: VID.


SIA or SJA in OLB means to see (dutch: zien, german: sehen)

[example p.11/31: "J HÀWED SJAN" = you have seen]

Sea is in dutch "zee" (meaning ocean) and in german "See" (meaning lake).


### Posted 26 March 2011 - 02:45 AM

I know about the year 0 thing (that there is none); this is just to have a rough overview. And it's not complete or finished yet, still it may be of use to some of you.

### Posted 26 March 2011 - 04:47 AM
Abramelin, on 25 March 2011 - 04:02 PM, said:
And it was me who posted about a Yule wheel used as a year-calendar, but I'm not sure it's nothing but a recent Pagan invention

Is it a co-incidence that our clock has 12 hours, like our year has 12 months?

- And that we used to count by dozen? (dutch: dozijn = 12)
- And that in the OLB creation myth the 3 sisters were born after the 12th Jolfeast and each had 12 suns and 12 daughters? (every Joltime a twin)
- The Mother of Texland should have 3 x 12 fast horses (Burch-law #12)
- Common law #8: villages may raise market-taxes to a maximum of a 12th part of the buying prize.
- laws for war and defence #2: from age 12 on, boys will be trained with weapons.
- Laws for navigators #5: The Witking recieves 12 'manparts' of the profit of a trading journey.
- Before the big flood, the 'Fryans' had 12 big rivers ("big sweetwater streams").
- Tunis came back from Sidon with a fleet of 12 ships full of trading treasures.
- Geert and her Geertmen left Athenia with 7 x 12 ships.
- Ulysos cam after no Krekalander had been seen in Almanland for 12 years.
- On the day of celebration, just before Adela was murdered, 12 girls with 12 lambs and 12 boys with 12 calves passed her door.
- The canal around Appolanja's burch was 12 feet wide.
- A day has 2 x 12 "solar hours", different from "seamans hours".
- Appolanja's burch had 12 "emergency houses" where people from the area could come and stay in time of crisis.
- Jes-os from Kashmir died after having travelled around for 12 years.

There is no other number in OLB that is used so frequently and so symbolically as 3x2x2 = 3x4 = 6x2 = 12.

### Posted 26 March 2011 - 06:38 AM
Alewyn, on 26 March 2011 - 05:07 AM, said:
Now think about " The Witking, that is, Sea King Godfreiath the Old"

No, that is misplacing the comma again, to change the meaning.

The text says:
"The Witking, that is Sea King, Godfreiath the Old"
==>> witking = seaking (seeking)

### Posted 26 March 2011 - 06:42 AM
Alewyn, on 26 March 2011 - 05:07 AM, said:
Remember he was called "Godfreiath the Old".

If you reread the quotes I collected, you'll see that those Witkings were about commanding (trading or army) fleets. In one of them Witking is mentioned together with Skelta-bi-nacht.

Tunis was not that old when he was chosen to be Seaking, with Inka as his Skelta-bi-ther-nacht.

They were going to win a war in Skenland, not to receive a Nobel Prize.

### Posted 26 March 2011 - 10:08 AM
Otharus, on 26 March 2011 - 04:47 AM, said:
There is no other number in OLB that is used so frequently and so symbolically as 3x2x2 = 3x4 = 6x2 = 12.

maybe not as symbolic, but more frequent of course:
The number three ...
Spelling of "three"-related words in OLB
(Note the many different spellings, sometimes even on one page.)
===>>>> see reading exercises
Are there other sources that suggest a relation?

### Posted 26 March 2011 - 04:14 PM
The Puzzler, on 26 March 2011 - 10:19 AM, said:
?? Suggest a relation? To what...Druids to the number 3?
Or do you mean between Druid and Triuwenden?
If it's the 2nd one, I gave one for that...
dru - steakfast like an oak - truthfullness, steady, loyal, true, compared to an old oak.

I just wondered because the word for 3 must be very old since it's the same in so many languages.

D or TH or T
E or EE or I or IE or EI etc.

Only English and the Scandinavian languages use a similar sounding word for "tree".

Since one of the spellings in OLB for 3 is THRJU or THRIU (either U or V), and TH is close to both T and D, I thought it might be relatable to the name the sailors used: "TRJV.WENDNE".

I heard Michael Tsarion mention a possible etymological link between druid and three once in a video. The Jol is made up of 6 perfect triangles within a circle, as Alewyn also showed in his book. If 12 and 6 were special numbers to the Fryans, then surely 3 should have been even more so. It's obviously a magical shape and number. That gave me the idea.

- - - - - -
three - english
tre - norwegian, swedish, danish, italian, albanian
??? - macedonian, russian, serbian, ukrainian
drei - german
trei - romanian
três - portuguese
tres - spanish, catalan, galician
t?e?? - greek
drie - dutch, flemmish, afrikaans
tri - czech
tri - croatian, slovak, slovanian
trí - irish
þrír - icelandic
tris - latvian, lithuanian
trois french
trzy - polish
- - - - - - - - - - -
tree - english
tré - icelandic
treet - norwegian
träd - swedish
træ - danish

boom - dutch
baum - german

arbre - french

### Posted 26 March 2011 - 04:18 PM
Flashbangwollap, on 26 March 2011 - 01:10 PM, said:
Here's a long shot: I wonder if the Ambr(ones) is anything to do with the Amber trade (The Amber-ones) and not as the Wiki says related to Greek "Amphi" or Latin "Ambi"

Yes it looks too simple but why not?

Yes Flash, good find.
A link with amber makes much more sense than one with ambi or amphi.

### Posted 26 March 2011 - 04:27 PM
Otharus, on 26 March 2011 - 04:14 PM, said:
I heard Michael Tsarion mention a possible etymological link between druid and three once in a video. The Jol is made up of 6 perfect triangles within a circle, as Alewyn also showed in his book. If 12 and 6 were special numbers to the Fryans, then surely 3 should have been even more so. It's obviously a magical shape and number. That gave me the idea.

I found the fragment:

"Like the later Freemasons, who appropriated their symbolic tropes, the ancient Druids venerated the number three and tripartite metaphysical principles. From the earliest days of the Irish the custom was for three kings to simultaneously govern. This is a phenomenon we find employed in Egypt where each of the fourteen or more nomes, or sacred cities, along the Nile were ruled over by a trinity of gods.?"

— Michael Tsarion; The Irish Origins of Civilization, Volume 1

### Posted 27 March 2011 - 06:38 AM
Nice that you all have such vivid imaginations, but I think you should have a better read before we continue this timewaste, and use your sense of logic, if you have it.

Otharus, on 24 March 2011 - 05:58 AM, said:
[OLB original p.27-28] ÉWA FARA STJURAR (Laws for the navigators)
[Ottema/Sandbach p.41]
5. Komt de vloot weder thuis, en zijn er baten,
dan moeten de zeelieden daarvan een derde deel hebben,
aldus te deelen.
De ??? twaalf mansdeelen, (...)
5. If the fleet returns with profits,
the sailors may divide one-third among themselves
in the following manner:
The ??? twelve portions, (...)

[OLB original p.45]
[Ottema/Sandbach p.65]
De ???, dat is Zeekoning, Godfried de oude
The ???, that is Sea-King Godfried the Old

[OLB original p.74]
[Ottema/Sandbach p.105]
De ??? der Thyriers bracht allen te zamen door de straat,
die in deze tijden op de Roode zee uitliep
The ??? of the Tyrians brought them altogether through the strait
which at that time ran into the Red Sea

[OLB original p.101]
[Ottema/Sandbach p.153]
De schilden van den ??? en den schout bij nacht waren met goud omboord.
The shields of the ??? and the admiral were bordered with gold.

Context: Navigators, sailors, fleet, seaking, Red Sea, admiral ('shield-by night').

Nowhere is suggested that WIT means wise here, although of course 'WITKINGS', who had the command of a whole fleet, would not have been stupid. Although the original meaning may have been know-king or see-king, and although the meaning may have been ambiguous, in OLB the main meaning obviously is sea-king, which would also be a perfectly reasonable meaning for the later word VIKING.

### Posted 27 March 2011 - 06:42 AM
Abramelin, on 26 March 2011 - 09:14 PM, said:
Was our dear Godfried the Old a Wise King? Was he Wodan/Odin? What do we know about him, anyway? Not much, eh?
He is just mentioned ONCE.

My post was not about him. You missed the whole point:
Now think of the latin word VIDERE = to see or to know (video = I see).
The root is: VID.


### Posted 27 March 2011 - 06:46 AM
The Puzzler, on 26 March 2011 - 05:08 PM, said:
Truth - truiwi - drud, druid - speakers of truth.
It would mean that PIE dru as tree would also have to equate to three.
Tree is from deru -oak - dru - tree
So tree and true can both spring from deru the etymology is saying.
Tree and truth have a very similar background connection and I can see some versions of it sound like 3.

This reminds me of something I once heard, that an old word for oak is ASK, and that people went there to "ask" for advise.

### Posted 27 March 2011 - 07:08 AM
The Puzzler, on 27 March 2011 - 05:31 AM, said:
Viking, I think in Norse is Vik ing - that is, inlet, bay, cove or creek dwellers.
Anglo-Frisian wic/wik was a hamlet or town, can go through to harbour.

From earlier Middle English wik, wich (“village, hamlet, town”); from Old English wic (“dwelling place, abode”); Germanic borrowing from Latin vicus (“village, estate”) (see vicinity). Came to mean “dairy farm” around 13th-14th century (e.g. Gatwick “Goat-farm”). Compare cognates: Old High German wîch, wih (“village”), German Weichbild (“municipal area”), Dutch wijk (“quarter, district”), Ancient Greek ????? (oikos, “house”), Old Frisian wik, Old Saxon wic (“village”).

Present in compounds (meaning “village”, “jurisdiction”, or “harbour”), as, bailiwick, Warwick, Greenwick, Southwick, Hampton Wick, etc., also -wich.

This VIK/WIK must be related to WIKA(?)

Dutch: "wijken" (also used in "ontwijken" en "afwijken"); to dodge, escape?

(how much I miss having my dictionaries at hand)

In dutch your vik-ing would be "wijking" which would mean something like a coward who dodges and avoids conflicts.

It is most unlikely that the word Viking would be associated to this VIK or WIK.

### Posted 27 March 2011 - 07:24 PM
Some etymologies, synonyms and explanations in the OLB: "X = Y"

The Oera-Lindas or Over-de-Lindens (other modern versions of this name are: Verlinden, Van-der-Linden, Ter-Linden etc.) who assembled the manuscript, had access to information that was under threat of getting lost. They sometimes knew the (original) meaning of words and they knew that if they would not copy or add this information, future generations would no longer understand all of the text.

I have made a list of examples where this sort of information is given in the common construction "..., that is ..." (or: "X = Y").

By doing this I discovered that much of this information was lost in translation, specially in the English version by Sandbach. (This was a translation not straight from the original, but from Ottema's Dutch translation.)

In fragment nrs. 4, 5, 6, 10, 13, 14, 16 and 17a below, Sandbach has completely ignored the "X = Y" construction!

This is one of the reasons why it's so much more interesting to read the original.

I even dare say that it's impossible to really understand the true value of the OLB by only reading a translation.

==>>> see reading exercises

### Posted 28 March 2011 - 04:27 AM
"Tree", "Boom", "Baum" in OLB.

The following list shows that the Fryans used two different words for our source of wood, the material that ships (and most houses) used to be built of (see fragment 13!).

What is fascinating, is that the one (TRE or THRE) is now used in England and Scandinavia - and NOT in Germany and the Netherlands, incl. Flanders, while the other (BAM or BOM) is used in Germany and the Netherlands ("Baum" resp. "boom") - and NOT in England and Scandinavia.

Fragments nr. 2 and 6 suggest that the original difference between the two words was that BAM/ BOM was a big (real) tree, while TRE/ THRE was more like a shrub, branch or twig, something more easily bendable.

Not surprisingly, the Linda or Linde (Tilia) tree is also mentioned (fragments 7, 8, 9 and 15).
To my disappointment, Sandbach has translated them into "lime-trees".
==>>> see reading exercises

### Posted 28 March 2011 - 05:26 AM
Ambiguous "WOOD": timber, forest and fury???

The following shows how "wood" (in OLB: "WOD") was ambiguous and must have been the root of the name "WODIN".

In fragments 1 and 4, "WOD" refers to wood/ forest (Dutch: woud, German: Wald).

In fragments 6, 9, 10, 11 and 12, it means wood/ timber (Dutch: hout, German: Holtz).

In fragments 2, 3, 5, 7 and 8, the word WODIN or WODAN (that are most probably derived from WOD) refers to anger, rage or fury (Dutch: woede, German: Wut)

{Note: This might also help to prove that Wodin/ Wodan is (originally) a different name/ character than Odin/ Odr, who in Nordic mythology and poetry seems to have more associations with the otter and might be related to the mysterious OLB word "OD".}

==>>> see reading exercises

### Posted 28 March 2011 - 03:47 PM
In the WITKENING/ WITKING/ SEAKENING/ SEAKING discussion, it's also relevant to remember that KÉNING/ KÀNING is twice suggested to have been synonymous with HÉRMAN = warlord or army commander, so very different from our understanding of the word King (Dutch: Koning):

(page 22)

(page 53)

### Posted 28 March 2011 - 04:04 PM
The Puzzler, on 28 March 2011 - 03:51 PM, said:
Wisgrych is used in the OLB so we know wis is the word they are using for wise so wit for wise seems to not fit with the rest of the language (I think).

WITSKIP = wisdom (dutch: wetenschap or wijsheid)

I don't understand how you people seem to think a word has to have one meaning only.

Think ambiguity and let the context explain what meaning will have been meant in the particular fragment. Also, it's nice that we can all have our own read of it, as we all have a different field of reference and imagination.

Moving on to something more interesting now...

### Posted 29 March 2011 - 12:34 PM
The Puzzler, on 27 March 2011 - 02:30 PM, said:
I cannot seem to pair WET with WIT, so unless it's a spelling error, it just doesn't seem to work.

Snow, clouds, seafoam; all wet AND white
To see something in clear bright (white) light = to know/ to be wise (to be enlightened)

### Posted 29 March 2011 - 12:37 PM
The Puzzler, on 28 March 2011 - 05:39 AM, said:

Wodin an Odin are usually thought to have been the same, but I don't think that's correct.

Otharus, on 28 March 2011 - 05:26 AM, said:
This might also help to prove that Wodin/ Wodan is (originally) a different name/ character than Odin/ Odr, who in Nordic mythology and poetry seems to have more associations with the associations with the otter and might be related to the mysterious OLB word "OD".

### Posted 29 March 2011 - 12:38 PM
The Puzzler, on 28 March 2011 - 08:02 AM, said:
Frikko is Freyr, that is Hermes in Greek, that is Mercury. ...
It would seem that name Freyr could be connected to the word Fryan - which apparently comes from Frya. So who is Freyja? Her name means lady.
Is Frya Freyja does anyone think or is she Frigg? Or neither?

Various Nordic sources suggest Frey and Freya were twins. Their parents Njord and Nerthus were also brother and sister...

I believe that OLB's cration myth is deliberately lying about Frya's past. Frey was a major deity in Scandinavia, but not in 'Fryasland'.

I don't believe Frey = Hermes = Mercurius; they may have had a similar function or represented the same archetype though.

What are your sources for the Frey/ Frikko information

### Posted 29 March 2011 - 12:42 PM
Abramelin, on 28 March 2011 - 03:30 PM, said:
The original doesn't use commas, only points and underscores:

Ther Witkêning. thaet is Sêkêning. God-
frêiath. thene alda. heth thêr asvndergana
telnomar fon mâkad fâr stand aend
rvnskrift bêde.

And as you see, there is also a point between "Godfrêiath" and "thene alda", so it's:
Their Witkening.that is Seakening.Godfried.the old

Points are used in OLB to either connect to words (we use a - for that), to replace something that's left out (the ' in "that's") or to make a pause while reading (we use either , . or ; : ). The context almost always makes it perfectly clear what is meant. The authors leave out points (comma's) where they would have been right, but when they place them they usually add them for a good reason.

It's not that this Godfreiath was old, but there must have been a younger (later) Seaking Godfreiath too. We use senior and junior for that.

A most correct translation would be:
"Their Witkening, that is Seakening, Godfried, the old."

### Posted 29 March 2011 - 04:53 PM
To complete my special about trees, wood and forests, here's another list of fragments with:

WALD/ WOD = wood/ forest (dutch: woud/ bos; german: Wald)

Note that in fragment #9 "LINDA.WALD" is translated into "Linda's wood", while in fragment #12 exactly the same word is translated into "wood of lime-trees".

Also note fragment #16: "WALDA THÉRA LINDA WRDA", translated as "forests of the Lindaoorden".

This is what the 'Over de Linden'/ 'Oera Linda' family (and hence the book) is named after, not the river, which is mentioned nowhere in the whole manuscript!

==>>> see reading exercises

### Posted 29 March 2011 - 05:10 PM
The Puzzler, on 29 March 2011 - 04:28 PM, said:
I don't care that much about the lime trees, I believe it has been translated right - but I'd be interested on more info on Frya/Freya and what anyone makes of those etymologies I gave - Gothic freis is free, sounds alot like Friesland, or Frisians, like the word has come from Gothic.

Bed for me but has anyone got anything interesting on the main lady herself?

I still think FRY originally just means "free", but here's the answer of a Norwegian specialist Maria Kvilhaug (20-1-2011):

It is an interesting question. Of course, language is always changing, so words will aquire new meanings over time. In contemporary Norwegian, "feig", for example, means "cowardly", whereas in old Norse times, it just meant "dying". It seems strange but with a little imagination one can try to envision how a word over several centuries can change meaning though indirect associations.

The names Freyr/Freya in old Norse during the Viking Age meant Lord/Lady Sovereign and were titles, derived from the older Germanic words Frauja/Fraujin of the same meaning (lord/lady).

However, the words are related to many other words in the Germanic languages, such as:

"free" (English)
"fri" (modern Scandinavian etc, meaning "free")
"fria" (old Norse: to love, to make love, to woo, propose, desire)
"fri" (modern Scandinavian, meaning to woo/propose)
"frodr"(old Norse: wise, wisdom)
"frodig" (Scandinavian; voluptous, fertile, abundant)
"frø" (Norwegian "seed")
"fryd" (Scandinavian: "joy")
"fridr" (old Norse: "peace")
"fred" (Norwegian/Danish: "peace")
"frid" (Swedish: "peace")
"frei" (German: "free")
"frukt" (Scandinavian: "fruit"

and also to the old Frisian word for "free". Somehow, the meanings of freedom, wisdom, sovereignty, love, fertility, seeds , peace and joy are all related in the association-realm of our ancestors. I am not sure which meaning was the "original", the oldest one.

One should be very careful about using Snorri as a historical source - there is no knowing what he knew and what he just made up. That the names Freyr and Freya are titles is an idea that is generally acknowledged and very probable too, if you ask me, and the word is ancient (hence the old "frauja" dating very far back in time). Of course it is possible that the lord and lady of the houses were named after the gods but it is more, or at least just as, sensible to think that they are titles. What is interesting is how the words for sovereignty related to the Vanir gods are related to words for wisdom, love, freedom, peace and abundance...

There are other Scandinavian words for sovereignty that reflect a different attitude, such as "herre" ("lord") which is derived from "herja", which basically mean to bully, harass and pillage someone.
Or the word Reginn, which means ruler, and simply means to control. Both are only applied to males! The latter word is certainly indo-European in origin. I am not sure where the other words are derived from.

The gods Freyr and Freya of the Vanir signify in my mind a different kind of attitude to sovereignty among an earlier people that the Vanir represent, possibly the Neolithic/Megalithic people that were in Northern Europe before the battle-axe people started their invasions.


Posted 30 March 2011 - 04:30 AM
The Puzzler, on 29 March 2011 - 05:14 PM, said:
Before I go - OD, odr - Odin = Wodin - fury, excitement.

No, Odin =/= Wodin

1) Root of the name Wodin is WOD:

Otharus, on 28 March 2011 - 05:26 AM, said:
The following shows how "wood" (in OLB: "WOD") was ambiguous and must have been the root of the name "WODIN".

In fragments 1 and 4, "WOD" refers to wood/ forest (Dutch: woud, German: Wald).

In fragments 6, 9, 10, 11 and 12, it means wood/ timber (Dutch: hout, German: Holtz).

In fragments 2, 3, 5, 7 and 8, the word WODIN or WODAN (that are most probably derived from WOD) refers to anger, rage or fury (Dutch: woede, German: Wut)

1. [049/09]
[O+S p.71]
Besides these we had the names Landzaten (natives of the land), Marzaten (natives of the fens), and Woud or Hout zaten (natives of the woods)

2. [074/06]
[O+S p.103]
before Cecrops became furious and changed his mind

3. [085/03]
[O+S p.103]
Very good [well], said the Magy, swelling with [hidden] rage

4. [096/29]
[O+S p.135]
Then she ran to the Krylwood and got some elder branches

5. [104/26]
[O+S p.145]
The [storm-] wind grew stronger [came back, more raging than before]

6. [107/20]
[O+S p.147]
crossbows [?] covered with wood and leather

7. [120/24]
[O+S p.165]
When Alexander heard
that such a large fleet had escaped him,
he became furious,
and swore that he would burn [offer] all the villages [to flames]
if we did not come back

8. [122/19]
[O+S p.167]
but Alexander was furious

9. [124/01]
[O+S p.169]
200 elephants, 1000 camels,
[loaded with] a quantity of timber,
ropes, and all kinds of implements

10. [148/14]
[O+S p.201]
because at Stavere, [and] along the Alberga,
the best ships of war were built
of hard oak which never rots

11. [150/02]
[O+S p.203]
weapons for wall defences, wood, [hardbaked] bricks,
carpenters, masons, and smiths

12. [198/30]
[O+S p.239]
Their arms are wooden bows

2) Root of the name Odin/ Odr must be "OD"

Otharus, on 17 March 2011 - 08:42 AM, said:
Otharus, on 13 October 2010 - 01:32 PM, said:


Note that there is a point (.) between "DRAMA" and "WR.ALDA.S" and that there is no point between "WR.ALDA.S" and "OD".

The translations:

Overview of the various translations of "OD":
Haat; Hatred (Ottema 1876, Sandbach 1876, Snyman 1998)
Gottes Odem; God´s breath (Wirth 1933)
Geneugte; pleasure (Overwijn 1941)
Een spits; a phallic object (Jensma 1992)
Gelukzaligheid; bliss (Jensma 2006)
Licht; light (de Heer 2008)

Jensma was probably closest after all with his translation "gelukzaligheid" (bliss).

"Under the name Ódr, Odin is described as Freya`s first man. The name means “ecstatic frenzy” and characterizes him as a personification of this side of the fertility goddess` companion. Freya is called Ód`s bedvina – “Ód`s bed-girlfriend” by the bard Einar Skulason in the year 1100 A.D."

From: "Diser, nornor, valkyrjor – Fruktbarhetskult och sakralt kungadöme i Norden" (1954) by Folke Ström, translated by Maria Kvilhaug (Dísir, norns and valkyrias – Fertility cult and sacred kingship in the North by Folke Ström ~ Chapter 3: The Great Dís, the seidr and Odin)

Source: http://www.facebook....118355794905946

### Posted 30 March 2011 - 04:06 PM
FRYA =/= FRÉJA !!!

Numbers between {...} refer to the fragments below.

Primary meaning FRÉJA: to ask (35x; 2x with G instead of J)
Dutch: vragen

FRÉGE - (he) asked {1,24}
FRÉJA - (to) ask, (the) asking, (he) asks {4,5,8,12,14,17,20,21,26,37}
FRÉJAD - (he has) asked {30}
FRÉJANDE - (to) ask {11,15,29,33,36}
FRÉJATH - (he/we/they) (have) asked {9,10,18,19,28c}
FRÉJDE - (he) asked {16}
FRÉJE - (I/he) asked {25,27ab,31ab,32,34}
FRÉJER - he asked {22}
FRÉJETH - (I have) asked {23}
FRÉJON - (they) asked {6,7}

Secondary meaning FRÉJA: to (ask or invite for) love (6x; 2x BI-)
Oldfashioned Dutch: (be-) vrijen (FRÉJAR = vrijer)

FRÉJA - (to) invite for love {3}
~ BIFRÉJAD - (he has) invited for love {35}
~ BIFRÉJANDE - (to) invite for love {28b}
FRÉJAR - lover {2,28a,29}

The word "GOD" in OLB almost always just means "good" or "perfect", but it can also mean "God".

Therefore, the name "GODFRÉJATH" (p.045/17) will have been double ambiguous:

God-asked or Good-loved

Dutch: God-(ge)vraagd or Goed-(ge)vreeën

(The meanings God-loved and good-asked are also possible, but less likely.)

This is very different from what the usual etymology for "Godfried" or "Godfrey" says: peace of God.

This also proves that GODFRÉJATH is a different name than GODFRIED, as it has a different meaning, although the latter may have evolved out of the first.

==>>> see reading exercises

### Posted 31 March 2011 - 02:54 AM
Triple amibuity of the Dutch word "VRIJ"
1) As we have seen, the Dutch words "vrijen" (to invite for love or to make love) and "vrijer" (lover) originate from the Fryan verb "FRÉJA", that mainly means to ask, and not from the word "FRY", as I thought before.
The declension of vrijen is like this:

ik vrij = I make love
jij vrijt = you (sing.)
hij/zij vrijt = he/she
jullie vrijen = you (plur.)
wij vrijen = we
zij vrijen = they

ik vrijde or vree = I made love
jij ,,
hij/zij ,,
jullie vrijden or vreeën
wij ,,
zij ,,

[u]Imperative mood
vrij! = make love!

2) "Vrij" in Dutch can also mean "free"; "vrijheid" means "freedom". This "vrij" originates from the Fryan adjective "FRY", which is also the root for the name "FRYA" (free one) and the word "FRYDOM" (freedom).

3) A third, less formal use of the word "vrij" in Dutch is "rather" or "quite".

hoe is het weer? vrij goed
how's the weather? rather good

This "vrij" also originates from "FRY" as in the above example, it means that the weather is not absolutely, not strictly, not 100% good, but good more in a free sense.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Ik vrij haar = I invite her to love or I make love with her (I am her lover)
==>> from "FRÉJA" (to ask)
Ik laat haar vrij = I let her (be) free
==>> from "FRY" (free)
Zij is vrij vrij = She is rather free
==>> both from "FRY"
Ik vrij vrij vrij = I make love rather freely
==>> first is from "FRÉJA", other two from "FRY"

### Posted 31 March 2011 - 03:02 AM
Abramelin, on 30 March 2011 - 07:22 PM, said:
Godféjath = Lover of God (or the Good?)
Godfried = in peace with God.

The meanings do not really differ that much in the end.

The new meanings I gave are very different.
Please read again:

Otharus, on 30 March 2011 - 04:06 PM, said:
Therefore, the name "GODFRÉJATH" (p.045/17) will have been double ambiguous:

God-asked or Good-loved (well-loved; well-made-love)
Dutch: God-(ge)vraagd or Goed-(ge)vreeën

### Posted 01 April 2011 - 08:15 AM
Feared Frisians
One of the many different old Dutch spellings of "Frisians" is "Fresen".
The following fragments show that this name may also have caused associations that were slightly different from "free".

Modern dutch:
fear = vrees
to fear = vrezen
to be feared = vreselijk

==>>> see reading exercises

### Posted 03 April 2011 - 05:47 AM
@ # $ % & * Priests!?

The OLB is rather negative about priests and other authorities.
Let's look at some of their qualifications.
(The numbers between {...} refer to the fragments below.)

BIDROGLIK = deceitful (NL: bedrieglijk) {8}
FALSK = false (NL: vals) {1,3}
FALX = ,, {4,6,7}
LÀF = cowardly (NL: laf) {5}
NÍDIG = needy, angry, jealous, spiteful (NL: nijdig) {12}
SKIN.FRÁN = pseudo-pious, hypocritical (NL: schijnvroom) {5,10}
SMÚGRIG = dirty, filthy, nasty (NL: smerig) {10}
TJOK ÀND RIK = fat and rich (NL: dik en rijk) {11}
WAN.WIS = pseudo-wise (NL: waanwijs) {4}
WL = foul (NL: vuil) {2,9}

This anti-authoritarian attitude of the OLB will have been one of the main causes for the emotional and therefore often irrational nature of the debate about it.

### Posted 03 April 2011 - 05:58 AM
Alewyn, on 02 April 2011 - 09:00 PM, said:
Talking about archaeological evidence. Here is something which may be of interest. I know Abe will say people knew about this in the 19th century, but once again, the OLB’s facts seem to have some foundation and to me this is more proof that the OLB is authentic.
My contention is that, had this been a hoax, the description of these walls would have been more specific and not just a casual reference made in passing, if you like. The hoaxer(s) would have wanted to make sure that the reader noticed this

It would also seem quite likely that the small "natural" harbour that Jon and Minerva found the first time would have been, what is today known as the "Zea Marina" or "Zea Port" near Athens. A funny name for a Greek harbour.

Good point. Very interesting indeed.

### Posted 04 April 2011 - 08:00 AM

I didn't know that southern Denmark used to be known as Frisia Borealis. The detailed maps from 1240 (reconstruction or copy?) and 1651 show well how the northern "dana marka" (from OLB) must have been low marshes indeed (nether lands). Much of what was still inhabited in 1240, was permanently flooded in 1651.

Interesting imo in relation to the Dutch Frieslands and their history of floods.

### Posted 04 April 2011 - 08:31 AM
The Saxons and the Saxanamarks

Most of the following fragments show that the Fryans and the Saxons must have been friendly together most of the time. They seem to have mixed well and many Saxons seem to have repopulated what is now Holland after the big flood of 300 BC.

One more comment relating to the WITKING / SEAKING discussion:
Fragment nr. 14 shows another use of the word WIT, here spelled as WITH.
It seems to mean sea or water here too.

A general note about Ottema's transliteration: he must have been in a hurry.
==>>> see reading exercises

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