Forum # 11 (okt. 18 - 21, 2011)

Posted 18 October 2011 - 09:55 AM
Otharus, on 31 August 2011 - 11:47 AM, said:
Knul's website (in Dutch) about his Oera Linda hoax-theory, starts with:

"In 1867 kwam het Oera Linda Boek aan het licht. Tien jaar later bewees J. Beckering Vinckers op taalkundige gronden dat er sprake was van een mystificatie. Daarna begon de zoektocht naar de schrijver van het bijzondere boek..."

Translated:
"In 1867 the Oera Linda Book came to light. Ten years later J. Beckering Vinckers[*] proved on linguistic grounds that it had to be a hoax. After that the quest for the author of the remarkable book started... [* 'Beckering' was not part of his family name, but a given name]


So Knul believes that Vinckers' gave sufficient proof in 1876 that OLB has to be a hoax.

Here is BV's article, in dutch: http://www.oeralindaboek.nl/pdf/OLBVinckers.pdf

Can any of the Dutch readers (Knul, Abe, ?) point out or summarise the proof to me, because I never found it.

### Posted 18 October 2011 - 01:28 PM
Abramelin, on 18 October 2011 - 10:26 AM, said:
Well, it was nothing like a summary, but I talked about it here:
...
It's kind of hard to summarize, but that is how *I* understood Beckering Vincker's analysis.

Yes, thank you. So this was your post:

Abramelin, on 19 September 2011 - 10:47 PM, said:
We have discussed Vincker's early analysis of the OLB, and Otharus said that this Dutch, 19th century linguist was wrong with his conclusion that the OLB was written in a something resembling bad Old or phony Frisian.
But today I read his whole analysis more attentively, and came - through my meager knowledge of linguistics - to the conclusion that Vincker was right about the OLB language all along.... but also.... that Halbertsma is ruled out as a possible suspect. ...

And these were my questions about it (that were not answered yet):

Otharus, on 15 October 2011 - 01:13 PM, said:
Can you give one example from the OLB of a "linguistic error"?
And if you can, how would this prove that OLB cannot be authentic?

### Posted 18 October 2011 - 05:15 PM
Alewyn, on 17 October 2011 - 05:11 AM, said:
http://home.nordnet....heemstra02.html

Enfin la clé de l'Oera Linda Boek / Finally the key to the Oera Linda Boek

... Raubenheimer paints a convincing picture and well illustrated with numerous maps of the Frisian confederation to which humanity owes so much, and the disasters, including natural, which led to its decline. It thus adds to the history of Europe and makes a famous chapter in the Oera Linda Book’s legitimacy; while the criticism of the nineteenth century Calvinist fundamentalists belittled Friesland, and the Netherlands denied it.
... Raubenheimer’s book finally restores poor Ottema; who was right, but who was so jeered, reviled and ridiculed that he ended up committing suicide.

### Posted 18 October 2011 - 07:00 PM

Quotes J.B. Vinckers 1876:

"Het O.-L.-B. is een van de allerwonderlijkste boeken, die ooit ter wereld zijn verschenen." 
The OLB is one of the most amazing books, that were ever found in the world.

"Het merkwaardige boek vond manhafte verdedigers. Drie mannen vooral sprongen kloekmoedig voor de eer van het O.-L.-B. in de bres:
primo: Dr. J.G. OTTEMA,
secundo: Dr. ANNE TJITJES REITSMA,
tertio : Prof. Dr. VITRINGA."
"The remarkable book found brave defenders, three men in particular:
Dr. J.G. Ottema, Dr. A.T. Reitsma, Prof. Dr. Vitringa."

"Zoo even wordt mij bericht dat ook wijlen Mr. DE HAAN HETTEMA de taal van 't O.-L.B. verklaard heeft voor Friesch, ouder dan dat der O.friesche wetten!! 't Is haast niet te gelooven."
"I was recently informed that the late Mr. De Haan Hettema also declared the language of the OLB to be Frisian, older than that of the Old-Frisian laws!! It's almost incredible."

"Die voor-Christelijke Oera-Linda's houden er zeer bedenkelijke, uiterst geavanceerde denkbeelden op na."
"Those pre-Christian Oera-Linda's have a very worrying, utterly advanced paradigm."

"De voorchristelijke, schrijfzieke familie lijdt in een zeer erge mate aan etymologiseerzucht, een ziekte waaraan onze landgenooten reeds zeer vroeg hebben gelaboreerd."
"The prechristian write-sick family suffers of a severe form of etymolegomania, a dis-ease that has been an epidemic of our countrymen since the old times."

"Kostelijk is vooral de verklaring van Gedrosia als het land der gedrosten. (...) Volgens Grimm's wet moest het land Ghetrosia of Gethrosia heeten."
"Most delicious is the explanation of Gedrosia as the land of the 'gedrosten'. According to Grimm's law, the land was spelled Ghetrosia or Gethrosia."

"Dat Friesche geleerden in den jare onzes Heeren 1876, dat is 60 jaar nadat Grimm het 1ste deel zijner Deutsche grammatik heeft in 't licht gegeven, nog zulke vreemdelingen in de grammatica van de kostbare letterkundige overblijfsels der Friesche oudheid zijn, dat zij een afschuwelijk taalkundig knoeiwerk als het Oera-Linda-boek, na langdurige studie, voor een echt gedenkstuk van overoud Friesch hebben aangezien, ja, de barbaarsche wartaal waarin het is geschreven voor ouder en zuiverden verklaren dan de zoo zuivere taal der Oudfriesche oorkonden, dat is inderdaad een zeer betreurenswaardig verschijnsel."
"That Frisian scholars in the year of our Lord 1876, that is 60 years after Grimm published the 1st part of his German Grammar, are such strangers in the grammar of the most precious linguistic remains of Old-Frisian, that they declared a horrible linguistic corruption to be overold Frisian, yes they declare the barbaric gibberish in which it was written to be more old and pure than the very pure language of the Oldfrisian Records... that is very sad indeed."

The above quotes are from J.B. Vinckers (1876), who was not able to prove that the OLB is a hoax.

### Posted 18 October 2011 - 09:06 PM
(re.post)
Some quotes from J.B. Vinckers' (1876) 'critical review' (my translation).

It's title:
"The falseness of the Oera Linda-Bôk, as proven by the the gibberish in which it was written"

"Gibberish, no better than Negro-English; gibberish, that makes the OLB a mark of infamy in the collection of most illustrous remains of old-frisian language."

"Another example of a clownish anachronism. But why do I say 'another anachronism', - the whole OLB is one single colossal anachronism from beginning to end, which for example is revealed in its long train of words, that only slowly emerged in the French and Dutch language in the Middle ages as degenerated Latin. Behold a mess, susceptible for expansion."

"I have reached my goal; I aimed at ridiculing the language of the OLB."

"But that some Frisian scholars in the year of our Lord 1876 ... are still so ignorant of the grammar of precious literary remains of Frisian antiquity, that they accept a repulsive linguistic botch job like the OLB, after long term study, to be a true remains of overold Frisian, that they indeed, declare the barbaric gibberish in which it was written to be more old and pure than the flawless language of the Oldfrisian certificates, that is indeed an utterly deplorable phenomenon."

- - -
Original quotes in Dutch:

"De onechtheid van het Oera Linda-Bôk, aangetoond uit de wartaal waarin het geschreven is"

"een wartaal, geen haar beter dan Neger-Engelsch; een wartaal, die het O.-L.-B. maakt tot een schandvlek in de rij der hoogst gewigtige overblijfselen van O.friesche taal."

"Dit is dus weer een potsierlijk anachronisme. Doch wat praat ik van ‘weer een anachronisme,’ - het geheele O.-L.-B. is van 't begin tot het einde één enkel kolossaal anachronisme, dat zich onder anderen ook openbaart in dien langen sleep van woorden, welken we eerst in de middeleeuwen langzamerhand door verbastering van 't Latijn in den mond van Franschman of Nederlander in de wereld zien komen. Zie hier een zootje, dat voor veel vermeerdering vatbaar is."

"Het doel dat ik mij voorstelde is bereikt; ik heb de taal van het Oera-Linda-Boek belagchelijk willen maken."

"Maar dat Friesche geleerden in den jare onzes Heeren 1876 ... nog zulke vreemdelingen in de grammatica van de kostbare letterkundige overblijfsels der Friesche oudheid zijn, dat zij een afschuwelijk taalkundig knoeiwerk als het Oera-Linda-boek, na langdurige studie, voor een echt gedenkstuk van overoud Friesch hebben aangezien, ja, de barbaarsche wartaal waarin het is geschreven voor ouder en zuiverder verklaren dan de zoo zuivere taal der Oudfriesche oorkonden, dat is inderdaad een zeer betreurenswaardig verschijnsel."

### Posted 19 October 2011 - 07:11 AM
Abramelin, on 18 October 2011 - 09:33 PM, said:
Yeah, the guy turned sarcastic having to deal with something that was too hilarious for him to even discuss.

The following scholars had a different opinion:
Dr. J.G. Ottema,
Dr. A.T. Reitsma,
Prof. Dr. A.J. Vitringa and
Mr. M. De Haan Hettema (1796-1873).

They declared the OLB language "to be more old and pure than [that] of the Oldfrisian Records".

Some significant publications by Mr. M. de Haan Hettema:
1830 The Emsiger Landlaws of the year 1312
1830 Short guide to Oldfrisian
1832 Friesche Spraakleer (study of Frisian oral language), with R.Rask
1832 Frisian Dutch dictionary
1834 Jurisprudentia Frisica, or Frisian law studies. A manuscript from the 15th Century. Part 1
1834/35 Idem - Part 2
1835 Idem - Part 3
1841 The Fivelingoër and Oldampster Landlaws. An Oldfrisian Manusctript from the 14th Century
1846 Old Frisian Laws - Part 1 (Hunsingoër regt. Rustringer regt. Broekmer regt. Emsiger regt (1st and 2nd codex))
1847 Old Frisian Laws - Part 2-1 (Jus municipale Frisonum)
1851 Old Frisian Laws - Part 2-2 (Boetregisters. Geestelijke regten. Willekeuren. Lex Frisionum)

### Posted 19 October 2011 - 08:21 AM
Vinckers (1876) about the OLB and its language:

"dit gedrochtelijke onding"
"this monstrous absurdity"

"taalkundige krankzinnigheid"
"linguistic madness"

"... honderd maal schandelijker [...] dan een opstel in een vreemde taal van een jong mensch, dat zich taalkundig volkomen onbeslagen op het gladde ijs van een eindexamen heeft gewaagd."
"...hundred times more scandalous [...] than essay in a foreign language by a student, who dares to step on the slippery ice of a final exam without any linguistic preparation."

"De taal waarin dit product is geschreven, [is] een allerverfoeilijkst mengelmoes, een wartaal, gevloeid uit de pen van een zeker in andere opzigten niet onkundig, maar in de allereerste gronden van de spraakkunst der verwante Duitsche talen in 't algemeen, en van de O.friesche taal in 't bijzonder volkomen onbedreven persoon; een wartaal, geen haar beter dan Neger-Engelsch; een wartaal, die het O.-L.-B. maakt tot een schandvlek in de rij der hoogst gewigtige overblijfselen van O.friesche taal."
"The language in which this product was written, is a most detestable mishmash, gibberish, made by someone not ignorant in other topics, but absolutely unaware of the primal grounds of the linguistics of related German languages in general, and of the old-frisian language in particular; a gibberish, nothing better than Negro-English; a gibberish, that makes the OLB to a disgrace in the line of most weighty remains of the oldfrisian language."

"Een ellendig zamenraapsel van oud en jong, zulk een bajert van spraakverwarring, die op elke bladzijde, neen, in elken regel van de 126 pagina's druks die het beslaat, voor 't oog van den kenner zijn onechte geboorte door onmiskenbare bewijzen zelf bloot legt."
"A miserable hodgepodge of old and young, such a misfit of babel, that on every page, no in every line of the 126 printed pages, reveils its fake birth to the eye of the specialist through indisputable proof."

~ ~ ~
Mr. Montanus de Haan Hettema was a specialist alright (see list of his publications).
Howcome he did not see all this "indisputable proof"?
Can anyone who takes Vinckers seriously give an example of this "indisputable proof"?

### Posted 19 October 2011 - 08:48 AM
Vinckers (1876) saw his method as "... an infallible tool to judge age and purity of the most ancient remains of German language, including Oldfrisian of 558 BC."

(original quote: "... een onfeilbaar middel om over de oudheid en zuiverheid van de alleroudste Duitsche taaloverblijfselen, ook over Oudfriesch van 558 jaar voor Christus geboorte, met grond een oordeel te vellen.")

He used strong terms, but was not able to produce "the most abundant and convincing evidence" ("de meest overvloedige en overtuigende bewijzen") as he called it.

I asked Knul several times, but he is not able to reproduce Vinckers' 'proof' that OLB cannot be authentic.

~ ~ ~
Imagine:
A man dies.
Agent 1 says: "he was murdered".
Agent 2, 3, 4 and 5 say: "no, he died a natural death".
Agent 6 and 7 go try and find a murderer.
~ ~ ~

Jensma and Knul have made theories of who could have made the OLB, without first giving a sufficient answer to the question:
Why can OLB not be authentic?

### Posted 19 October 2011 - 11:42 AM
Knul, on 19 October 2011 - 10:59 AM, said:
As I have stated before, the OLB is a word-for-word translation of a Dutch text, which follows Dutch grammar, conjugations and declinations. Beckering Vinckers compared the result with Oldfrisian and found that the text did not match that standard.

That the text did not match the Oldfrisian standard, does not mean the text can not be authentic.

What if the chosen standard was old-fashioned and in need of revision?

What if "Dutch" (Westfrisian!) is actually more similar to the original language of our ancient ancestors, than what is called "old-Frisian" (from laws that were noted and copied by Christian, Latin-schooled monks)?

What if old-Frisian expert Mr. Montanus de Haan Hettema was right?

### Posted 19 October 2011 - 01:00 PM
Language can be spoken and written.

Written language is not always a reflection of spoken language.

In formal documents, other words and syntax are used than on the street.

The oldest known documents in Dutch and Frisian from the Middle-Ages were written by monks, who had learned to read and write in Latin.

They were not schooled to write down the spoken language.

In rural areas in The Netherlands (including Flanders), dialects have survived in uncultured, sometimes illitterate families.

Those families had lived in those areas for hundreds of years, without mixing much with outsiders.

Modern Dutch is not very much different from these raw dialects.

Modern 'Frisian' is an attempt to standardise all various dialects in the Dutch province Friesland.

When the language of the OLB is compared to various different rural dialects in North-Western Europe, more likeness will be found, than when it is compared to Medieval texts.

What does this prove?


### Posted 19 October 2011 - 03:12 PM
Abramelin, on 19 October 2011 - 02:39 PM, said:
If the OLB is true, then the further we get back in time (in Europe) the more these Nordic and German languages should resemble eachother. And what we get then should be very similar to the language used in the OLB. It isn't.

The modern versions of English, Dutch, Frisian, German, Danish, Swedish, Norwegian are STILL similar to eachother.

The written varieties of those languages have become more a reflection of oral language, than they used to be (written text used to be more formal and mostly from authorities).

Through the ages there will have been countless varieties.

Schools in Holland have only been regulated since the last 200 years.

The more people stayed in the same area, without mixing much with newcomers, the more their language remained unchanged.

The language of the OLB is relatively similar to the aforementioned languages.

If it would have been a product of the 19th century, the language of the OLB would be the perfect reconstruction IMO of the proto-Frisian language.

I agree with
Dr. de Haan Hettema,
Dr. Reitsma,
Prof. Dr. Vitringa and
Dr. Ottema
that the language of the OLB is NOT:

a "monstrous absurdity",
"linguistic madness",
"scandalous",
"a most detestable mishmash",
"gibberish",
"a disgrace in the line of most weighty remains of the oldfrisian language",
"miserable hodgepodge of old and young" or
"a misfit of babel" (terms used by J.B. Vinckers).

Quote
The reason the Icelandic language didn't change that much in a 1000 years is because the people there lived and live rather isolated, and the language is taught in schools.

The school system is not very old.

Language was taught from generation to generation.

People in rural areas of the low countries also lived rather isolated.

Their language will have changed more in the last hundred years, than in the many hundreds of years before that.

### Posted 19 October 2011 - 03:18 PM
Abramelin, on 19 October 2011 - 02:46 PM, said:
OK, here's my problem.
The OLB is written in a language that resembles the language used in the Frisian Law texts of the 13th century. Gramatically correct or not, let's forget about that for a minute.
The OLB was first put on paper in the 7th century BC.
More than thousand years later we find texts (runes) in the area where most of the OLB took place, and the language has changed considerably.
Then - let's say 500-700 years later - people suddenly start again using the language as used in the OLB.
Weird, eh?

So you think those runes that were found represented all the different languages and dialects of that time, both spoken and carved? (BTW They may have been made in coded script; very clever in times of war.)

And do you believe that in the 13th century all people in our lands spoke just like in the few Law texts that have survived?

### Posted 19 October 2011 - 03:26 PM
Abramelin, on 19 October 2011 - 03:19 PM, said:
You must have missed that last post of mine, where I ended with "Weird, eh?".

No, I didn't miss that.
I understand that it is weird to someone who believes that those few runes are a representation of the spoken language of the people who lived here.
I claim that the language can not have changed that much in the last millennium, because of the similarities (to date) in the various N-W European languages and dialects.

### Posted 19 October 2011 - 03:42 PM
Abramelin, on 19 October 2011 - 03:33 PM, said:
Yes, and that's because they are still rather close to the language spoken in the 10-13th century AD, and very probably far away from the language spoken 2000 years before the 10-13th century.

What is your assumption based on?
What do you know of "spoken language" of the 10-13th century?

Quote
Those 'few runes' as you call them (like 200 short old Anglo-Frisian inscriptions) should contain a language even closer to the language of the OLB.

Why?

### Posted 19 October 2011 - 04:27 PM
In the OLB, "JRTHA" is earth and "WR-ALDA" means over-old-one, world or universe ('god').
The German word for universe is "Weltall" which means: world-all
(the Dutch word is heelal, meaning: whole-all)
As I have suggested before, it's not unthinkable that "WR-ALDA" or "ALDA" evolved into "Allah".

### Posted 19 October 2011 - 04:40 PM
Me:
I claim that the language can not have changed that much in the last millennium, because of the similarities (to date) in the various N-W European languages and dialects.

You:
Yes, and that's because they are still rather close to the language spoken in the 10-13th century AD, and very probably far away from the language spoken 2000 years before the 10-13th century.

Me:
What is your assumption based on? What do you know of "spoken language" of the 10-13th century?

You:
I base my assumption on the fact that the European peoples didn't live isolated, and even those who lived 'relatively' isolated (rural areas) and spoke a language/dialect a few centuries older than what was spoken around them, would never have been able to withstand the impact of this newer language/dialect eventually.

What "newer language/dialect"?

###
You:
More than thousand years later we find texts (runes) in the area where most of the OLB took place, and the language has changed considerably.

Me:
So you think those runes that were found represented all the different languages and dialects of that time, both spoken and carved?
(...)
I understand that it is weird to someone who believes that those few runes are a representation of the spoken language of the people who lived here.

You:
Those 'few runes' as you call them (like 200 short old Anglo-Frisian inscriptions) should contain a language even closer to the language of the OLB.

Me:
Why?

You:
The 'why' is easily answered: the further back in time, the less time the language had to deviate and the more it would resemble the older language.
It's not like the Jews spoke Hebrew 3000 years ago, then 2000 years later their language started resembling Swedish or something, and then a thousand years after that it again looked like the Hebrew they spoke 3000 years ago.

The problem is, that we don't know if those runes represent the language of our Dutch or Westfrisian ancestors.

It is possible that those 'Fryans' only used wood and paper for writing, not stone.

It's possible that those stone-runes were left by intruders.

To use your example:

3000 BP - Jews spoke Hebrew
1000 BP - language starts to resemble Swedish
present - Jews speak Hebrew again

What if the sources of 1000 BP do not represent the actual language that was spoken, but resembled Swedish because of temporary influences from abroad?

### Posted 19 October 2011 - 07:57 PM
cormac mac airt, on 19 October 2011 - 07:21 PM, said:
... it's "Lego-linguistics to the rescue".

Since Wr-alda in OLB refers to what we call "God", and other cultures use(d) a similar word in the same context ("Veraldar God", "Weralden Olma"), it is not so far-fetched to relate it to Allah and it sounds almost the same as Alda. I also mentioned the German "Welt-all" (world-al) for Universe, which is in more natural cultures associated to (if not the same as) "God".

This was a good post:
Otharus, on 10 November 2010 - 04:00 PM, said:
There has been talk about how much of what is in OLB was already known to the 19th century elite.
I do not agree with Abram that they knew that much and certainly not "everything Puzzler posted"; what a nonsense.
Also, it was said that other sources with the same script are needed to prove that OLB contains old information.
Script basically represents sound. For most of history and for most people there was no script, only oral tradition.
If we find words that are used in other cultures that sound similar and have similar meanings, and when these words were not known to the 19th century Dutch/ Frisian elite, this is most interesting and can help increase the credibility of OLB being a genuine source of old information.
In the following I'd like to introduce an example to the discussion.

Jensma (p. 92-93 of "De Gemaskerde God"):

"WR.ALDA is the most explicit character in the whole OLB. His name, that is used 96 times, is a great find in itself. 'Wralda is Oldfrisian for 'world', but the point in the word makes it possible to read the name as 'Oer.alda' - the 'over-old one', and possibly also as 'Oeral.da' - 'where-all there' (omnipresent)." (improvised translation by me)

(original text:) "WR.ALDA is het meest uitgewerkte personage uit het hele Oera Linda-boek. Zijn naam, die maar liefst 96 keer wordt genoemd, is op zichzelf al een vondst van formaat. 'Wralda is Oudfries voor 'wereld', maar de punt in het woord (in het OLBees staat WR.ALDA) maakt dat de naam ook kan worden gelezen als 'Oer.alda' - de 'oeroude', en mogelijk ook nog eens als 'Oeral.da' - 'Overal aanwezig'."

What Jensma did not know - or maybe he deliberately ignored it - is that varieties of the word Wralda exist in old Nordic archaeology, mythology, poetry in a similar context; and it does not only mean world...

1. Frey or Freyr, the twin-brother of Freya (and associated with fertility) is refered to as "Veraldar God".
2. In old-Laplandic the term "Weralden Olma" refers to what we would call God or Allah.
3. The creation myth of the poetic Edda starts with "Ar Var Alda"; first was old-one (or big wave, see video).
(4. I even dare suggest an etymological relationship between 'Alda' and 'Allah', but I don't even need this here to make my point.)

Prof. Dr. H. Wirth mentioned 1. and 2. in a newspaper article in 1925 (Leeuwarder Courant 31 october) and added:

"... the Ingvaeonic name for God, Wralda, that was not known to science in the time that the manuscript supposedly would have been created, and partly still isn't!" (improvised translation by me)

(original:) "... de Ingvaeonische naam voor God, Wralda, die in den tijd waarin het handschrift vervalscht zou moeten zijn, aan de wetenschap onbekend was en ten deele nog is!"

So if it takes almost 50 years for Dutch scholars to notice that Wralda does not only mean World, but in other old cultures was also used to refer to the oldest or most important deity or spirit, it is not likely that a few conspirors knew this and used it for their hoax. I find it reveiling that even present day Frisian expert Jensma did not seem to know this when he wrote his publications (or he ignored it, which would be even more suspect).

### Posted 20 October 2011, 06:51 AM
cormac mac airt, on 19 October 2011 - 09:19 PM, said:
And just because one word, or part thereof, "sounds" like a similar word doesn't mean they're connected.

If there would only be sound similarity, I'd agree with you.
But since they have the same meaning too, it's not irrational to consider the possibility.

### Posted 21 October 2011, 08:51 AM
Knul, on 20 October 2011 - 10:42 PM, said:
It leaves the question, why they were used in the OLB. Did someone intend printing ? I can hardly imagine that. So there must be an other reason.

Notaries in the 18th century also used tildes (~~~) to fill up empty space, without intending printing. The reason was to prevent that someone else would add text later and pretend it was part of the original text.

In chapter 14 of "The Masked God" (p.255), Goffe Jensma shows that Cornelis Over de Linden in his notebooks sometimes placed comma's in the beginning of a new line, instead of at the end of a line. For him, this was proof that C.O.L. must have been the assumed copyist.

See my post:
Otharus, on 12 April 2011 - 04:44 AM, said:
The next 'proof' for the 'fact' that Cornelis must have held the pen from which the OLB-ink flowed, is that he sometimes placed a comma in the beginning of a new line, something we also see in the manuscript.

Example:
This is an example
, of comma's placed
in the beginning
, instead of at the
end of the line.

There's other explanations possible for this.
1) It's a peculiarity that his grandfather, who loved the manuscript, passed on to his descendant.
2) Cornelis, studying the manuscript and identifying more and more with it, copied the habit. He only had primary school education and was mostly a self-educated, and educated by family.

Did Cornelis make the manuscript, or did the manuscript - directly or indirectly - make Cornelis?

Forum # 10 (sep. 5 - okt. 17, 2011)

Posted 05 September 2011 - 01:20 PM

FRIESCHE LUST-HOF / FRISIAN PLEASURE-GARDEN

by Jan Jansz. Starter (Amsterdam, 1621)
==>> see seperate post on FRYSKEDNIS

### Posted 06 September 2011 - 10:23 PM

Otharus, on 18 November 2010 - 11:17 AM, said:
"OD" may have survived in dutch as "oed" or "oet".

"Wralda's od" revisited

I have been fascinated with the word "OD" for different reasons, one of them being that it has been translated in completely different ways, from "hate" (Ottema) to "bliss" (Jensma).

Otharus, on 13 October 2010 - 01:32 PM, said:
Overview of the various translations of "OD":
Haat; Hatred (Ottema 1876, Sandbach 1876, Snyman 1998)
Gottes Odem; God´s breath (Wirth 1933)
Geneugte; pleasure (Overwijn 1941)
Een spits; a phallic object (Jensma 1992)
Gelukzaligheid; bliss (Jensma 2006)
Licht; light (de Heer 2008)

Because most OLB-words that contain "od" are spelled with "oed" in modern Dutch (see below), I suspected that if the word "OD" had survived, it would now be "oed" or "oet".

[okke/6] FLOD = vloed
[okke/7] MODER = moeder
[001/12] GOD(E) = goed(e)
[005/13] HOD = hoed(e)
[007/04] MOD = moed (VNMODICH, FRYMOD, MODELÁSA)
[009/13] BLOD = bloed
[018/25] FORMODA = vermoeden
[031/08] FODER = voeder
[034/22] (UT)BRODA = (uit)broeden
[065/03] SPOD(E) = spoed(de)
[080/15] ERMODE = armoede
[085/04] WODIN = woede (WODANDER)

From the context in which it is used, and because of the slang-word "oetlul" (as mentioned in the first quote), my thoughts have been that it means "penis" (I made a Youtube video about that).

Today, using a friend's dictionary, I found another word that confirms this idea:

oeteren (slang) = to piss (one of various meanings)

### Posted 06 September 2011 - 10:43 PM

Abramelin, on 06 September 2011 - 10:32 PM, said:
I think "oet" means nothing but "ontzettend", or "very".

In oetlul you mean, but what about: oeteren = plassen (to piss)

And in OLB: "Wralda's od trad to ra binna"
(something penetrates women and then they become pregnant... what would that have been?!)

In old-saxon, "ôd" means luck, the word "ooievaar" (stork) would be derived from it...

### Posted 07 September 2011 - 07:22 AM

Abramelin, on 07 September 2011 - 12:01 AM, said:
Maybe this helps (and have posted it long ago in answer to your same question):
*od-ie, afries., Sb.: Vw.: s. klê-n

Thanks for the effort, but no, it doesn't make sense in the context in which it is used in the OLB.

In old-norse, "od" means spirit, and many old names seem to have derived from it:

Uther (Pendragon; father of king Arthur)
Od, Ódr, Odur, Odin, etc. (Norse mythology)
Ot, Otto, Otte (combinations like Odman, Odgar, Odwin, Edwin, Edgar, Edward, etc.)
Ott is a common family-name in Switserland, Austria, south-Germany; it must be really old, because the meaning is not known and yet it is a common name.

### Posted 07 September 2011 - 08:21 AM

Abramelin, on 07 September 2011 - 07:56 AM, said:
One of the options you mentioned I actually thought of, but never expected you would come up with it

I know: Jan "met-de-korte-achternaam" (untranslatable)
I thought that was obvious...

Quote
And this one you have talked about, but not when it was 'invented':
The Odic force (also called Od [õd], Odyle, Önd, Odes, Odylic, Odyllic, or Odems) is the name given in the mid-19th century to a hypothetical vital energy or life force by Baron Carl von Reichenbach. Von Reichenbach coined the name from that of the Norse god Odin in 1845.
http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Odic_force

Indeed, if the OLB was created after 1845, the makers may have been inspired by Von Reichenbach for this word.

### Posted 30 September 2011 - 04:09 PM

Knul, on 29 September 2011 - 08:25 PM, said:
Just an exampel: Ottema translated vreste (Magi) with overste and was followed by Sandbach, but vreste = [ge]vreesde.

This again illustrates how Knul makes statements without doing his homework:

OLB p.150
WIL.HIM ALSA HÉTE HJRA TÁT.
HI WAS VRESTE ALDERMÀN THÉRA JUTTAR.
THAT IS VRSTE GRÉVETMAN JEFTA GRÉVE.

p.200
KIRT VRLÉDEN WAS THÉR THA VRESTE THÉRA GOLUM SÉTEN
VPPA THÉRE BURCH THÉR IS KÉTHEN KÉRENÀK.

VR = over
VREST or VRST = most over; overst(e)

OLB p.24
11. HETH THENE KÉNING EN FRÉSALIK FOLK OFSLAGEN
SÁ MÜGON SINA AFTER.KVMANDE SIN NÁMA ÀFTER HJARA ÀJNE FORA

gevreesd (feared) = FRÉSALIK


### Posted 30 September 2011 - 07:32 PM

Knul, on 30 September 2011 - 06:33 PM, said:
Overste = ovirste
Tha prestera send tha engosta hêra , hja hêton hjara selva Mâgjara , hjara aller ovirste hêt Magy , hi is hâvedprester aend kêning mith ên , allet ôre folk is nul in-t siffer aend êllik aend al vnder hjara weld [p.72].
You are right about vrste.

vrste = vreste = ovirste = overste = oerste = eerste
Ovira Linda = Wra Linda = Vra Linda = Over de Linden

###

### Posted 14 October 2011 - 11:08 AM

Abramelin, on 13 October 2011 - 10:45 AM, said:
I have been more specific; weeks ago I posted a translation of part of a Dutch pdf about Halbertsma and his love for the Frisian language.

And I have explained before why people who love the Frisian dialect have a problem with the language of the OLB:

Some words in OLB are more similar to Dutch, Flemmish, English, German and Swedish (or other languages), than to New-Frisian.

Nationalistic Frisians like to believe that their dialect is more original and pure than Dutch, while the truth is that it's nothing but an ennobled rural dialect.

Example: the city Franeker (from "Frana") is called Frjentsjer in their dialect.

This is why most members of the 19th century Fryske Akademy were horrified by the OLB (apart from the religious and political tension it would have created).

(The political goal of the F.A. was to promote Frisian contemporary culture and language.)

### Posted 14 October 2011 - 11:23 AM

Otharus, on 14 October 2011 - 11:08 AM, said:
This is why most members of the 19th century Fryske Akademy were horrified by the OLB (apart from the religious and political tension it would have created).
(The political goal of the F.A. was to promote Frisian contemporary culture and language.)

The Frisian Academy is now related to the Royal Dutch Academy calling itself of Sciences (KNAW - Koninklijke Nederlandse Akademie zich noemende van Wetenschappen).

Fryske Academy
The Fryske Academy is the centre of research on Fryslân (Friesland). It conducts research into the Frisian language and literature, the history of Fryslân, and present-day social and cultural trends.

The studies carried out by the Fryske Academy are typically comparative in nature: they compare the Frisian language and culture of past and present with the language and culture of other Dutch regions or other cultural minorities, in particular indigenous minority groups in Europe. In addition, the Fryske Academy also provides courses at the University of Amsterdam and Leiden University.
http://www.knaw.nl/P...GFuZz1FTkc.html

### Posted 14 October 2011 - 11:41 AM

Abramelin, on 14 October 2011 - 06:44 AM, said:
The only other translation for Gosa Makonta is of course the one every Dutch person thinks of when s/he reads/hears the name...

Goffe Jensma (2004, p.137) points out that the name "Gosa Makonta" reminds of the Westfrisian (North-Holland) expresion "He is Geesje de Konte", meaning something like: He tastes defeat.

In "De Navorscher" of 1871 (p.152) the expression "Hij raakt Geesje de Konte" (he touches or strikes GdK) is mentioned (without being explained).

As usual in this debate, more explanations are possible:
1. OLB's GOSA MAKONTA was inspired by this old slang expression, or
2. The slang expression is based on a historical (or mythological) character GOSA MAKONTA.

### Posted 14 October 2011 - 08:09 PM

Abramelin, on 13 October 2011 - 10:35 AM, said:
I have posted a quite long post about how one could pull that trick, weeks ago.

Nice try but it doesn't have spirit.
Nothing witty, poetic or provoking?
OLB is not about language only.
The humor, beauty and controversial content makes it worth studying,
whenever it was created and whoever were involved.

### Posted 15 October 2011 - 10:42 AM

Abramelin, on 07 September 2011 - 02:38 PM, said:
I hope you have a peek now and then, Otharus, because I did find something about the name "Ott":
Otto, Ottens, Otte(n), Hoete, Otté, Ote, Oth(e), Ott, Ots, Ottes(en), Ottosen
Patronymic to the Germanic first name Otto, it is derived from the Germanic ot.
http://home.scarlet....loet/FpageO.htm

Ottens, Ots, Ottes(en) and Ottosen are patronyms, the others are not.
But, most importantly, the names are indeed derived from the Germanic "ot".

Quote
ot: wealth, inheritance, see od
od, ot, ôd, oda, odâl, odo, odela, otto, ôthal: paternal heritage, property, wealth, custodian
http://home.scarlet....rvloet/GERM.htm
So the name Ott does have a meaning, and it's based on the Germanic 'ot'/'otto'.
But it also doesn't make a lot of sense in the context in which it is used in the OLB.

The meanings "wealth" and "inheritance" are based on translations of certain texts that have survived.
I would like to know which texts they are and if other (better?) translations are possible.
It's not likely that these were the original meaning of such a short word.
The original must have been somthing more primal.

With the different translations of OLB's "OD" we saw how much depends on who the translator is, and even the same translator can change his mind later.

Ottema (1872): hatred ("haat")
Jensma (1992): phallic object ("spits")
Jensma (2006): bliss ("gelukzaligheid")

Quote
That's why I think 'od' must be seen in the meaning Reichenbach gave to it in 1845: vital energy or life force ..... and that would mean someone used that recent definition for 'od' in his creation of the OLB.

If the OLB was created after 1845 you would probably be right, but I would argue that Von Reichenbach chose the perfect word for his life force theory.

Remember the old-Nordic meaning of Od: spirit.
"Spirit" is virtually synonymous to "life force" (in my opinion).

### Posted 15 October 2011 - 11:02 AM

The Puzzler, on 09 September 2011 - 01:56 AM, said:
WAY before 1845 we can find OD as spirit (life force).
I think OD in the OLB means (his) spirit. ie; his life force that came from his rod, ie; penis.

Great Puzzler, we are thinking in the same direction.

Quote
As soon as they were full grown they took pleasure and delight in the visions of Wr-alda.
(His) Spirit found it's way among them.

In the original text, there is a point between DRÁMA ("dreams" or Sandbach's "visions") and WR.ALDA.S ("Wr-alda's").

There is no point between WR.ALDA.S and OD.
Since Ottema misplaced the point in 1872, translators up until Jensma have copied this mistake.

### Posted 15 October 2011 - 11:40 AM

Abramelin, on 09 September 2011 - 01:07 PM, said:
You appear to forget that if you are right, the people got 'inspired' for a second time by Wralda:
-1- Thâ hja blât kêmon spisde Wr.alda hjam mith sina âdama;
-2- til thju tha maenneska an him skolde bvnden wêsa.
-3- Ring as hja rip wêron krêjon hja früchda aend nochta anda drâma.
-4- Wr.aldas od trâd to-ra binna:
-5- aend nw bârdon ek twilif svna aend twilif togathera ek joltid twên.
-6- Thêrof send alle maenneska kêmen.

First breath after birth and impregnation are both relevant events in the beginning of a life, but they are not the same.

"Wr.alda spisde hjam mith sina âdama" is about the first three mothers taking their first breath.
"Wr.aldas od trâd to-ra binna" is about the first three mothers being impregnated.

### Posted 15 October 2011 - 11:51 AM

Alewyn, on 11 September 2011 - 04:30 AM, said:
Btw. You may want to read a review on my book that someone posted on Amazon.

Since this thread started thanks to Alewyn's book, I think he deserves this review to be included here.
Source: http://www.amazon.com/Survivors-Great-Tsunami-Eurasia-Wednesday/dp/1451527748

By Meredith Waters, July 12, 2011

I have only recently become aware of the existence of the Oera Linda Book, the account passed down for millennia regarding the Frisian civilization which greatly influenced the development of Western and parts of Eastern civilization. Because the book had been declared a fraud in error, serious scholarly inquiry into this matter has been nearly inaccessible up to the present time. What a strange fate and travesty that such an important part of world history has been practically ignored while fiction and myth has enjoyed a modern heyday.

Fortunately Alewyn Raubenheimer has taken to the monumental task of examining the Oera Linda Book not only in light of the contemporary archeological and geological discoveries and evidence which vindicate it, but in light of the historical references left to us from ancient writers like Homer and Herodotus, theological texts, and Neolithic ancient places. I had high hopes that this book would be the definitive scholarly resource for obtaining a true understanding of the contents of the Oera Linda Book itself, as well as be an entertaining, fascinating inquiry into ancient European history, and it did not disappoint. To read this book is to walk in a newly rediscovered ancient world and gain completely new understanding and insight to a part of history that is at once intuitively authentic. Passages from the Oera Linda Book which describe these free, noble seafaring citizens and their interactions and relations with early European, Mideastern and Asian civilizations are offered by Raubenheimer while he simultaneously provides the background information on the many ancient peoples the Frisians came into contact with. Maps and visuals are dynamically presented which not only clarify the revelations of the events covered in the Oera Linda Book but create all the more engaging of a read. It doesn't get any more incredible than a map of the now-submerged Frisland which matches the sea floor Northwest of Scotland.

Raubenheimer has also risen to the challenge of presenting the complex interactions of many ancient cultures that have each in turn left a formidable past in their wake. It becomes clear to the reader that history is not linear, but interdependent and dynamic, as resources, lands, language, knowledge and even genetics are shared during times of conflict brought on by geological catastrophes and war. Ultimately, I gained a tremendous admiration for the "Sea People" of antiquity that were continually referred to in epic works, sacred texts and ancient drawings alike. It seems then a tremendous loss that this imperative culture has diminished and nearly passed out of contemporary awareness. Their legacy, however, has been extensive. The only thing that would be truly unfortunate, then, is to for their legacy and heritage to not be included in the body of modern knowledge that is worth gaining in a lifetime. It is not only theirs, but ours. Thanks to Raubenheimer, we can claim it once again.

Frisian Pleasure-Garden

Scans from

FRIESCHE LUST-HOF,
Beplant met verscheyde stichtelyke
Minne-Liedekens/ Gedichten/ ende Boertige Kluchten

FRISIAN PLEASURE-GARDEN,
Planted with various uplifting
Love-Songs/ Poems/ and Jocular Farces

by Jan Jansz. Starter
(Amsterdam, 1621)

Wanneer ghy by de Wyn syt, soeckt u te vermaken,
En schuwt het vies geklap van Goddelycke saken,
Elck dingh heeft synen tyd: 't is pryslick dat een Man
Is wys in syn beroep, en vrolyck by de Kan.

Cupido, hoe heeft u mijn liefs gesicht bedrogen?
Heur hert is koud als ys, al vlammen schoon haer oogen,
Nu daerd ghy in mijn hert; daer moogt ghy niet weer uyt:
Want daer verbrand mijn vlam dijn vleugels vande huyt.

Ick kocht van Venus-kind noyt minne-kramery,
En 't minnen van een Vrou quam minder oyt in my:
Maer hy doet schoontjes veur, dat doet my van hem kopen,
Sy pronckt haer in de deur, dat doet myn na haer lopen.

Wanneer Vrou-Venus komt verselschapt met haer staet,
Daer sy Cupido self gemeenlyck buyten laet:
Weest Minnaer dan verheughd, dat 's t' eynde van u rouwen,
Dat 's d' aenvangh van u vreughd, het teyken van u trouwen.

In 't huwen kan men 't niet wel elck te passe maecken,
Dan sal den eenen dit, dan dat den ander laecken:
Want g'lijck die aen de wegh yet boud veel aenstoots sijd;
Soo sijd hy in 't gemeen veel opspraecks, die veel vrijd.

Is 't nut datmen de toorts, die 't vuyr heeft aen gesteken
Wech voerd, wanneer de vlam komt door de daken breken?
So voerd my van mijn Lief, of haer uyt mijn gesicht,
Nu sy my fit in 't hart, die daer de vlammen sticht.

G'lijck een die met syn oogh des Hemels hoogte' afmeet,
Sijn voet set in een put, en smoord al eer hy 't weet.
Verval ick in een put van droefheyd en elende,
Dewijl ick, lief, mijn min naer uwe hoogheyd wende.

By ruymt van spys en dranck toond eerbare geneughd,
Weest droevigh als het past; maer vrolyck by de vreughd,
't Word beyd voor wysheyd en voor aerdigheyd gehouwen
Datmen somtyds de geck laet springen uyt de mouwen.

Tracht niet arghlistelyck een Maeghd van 't pad der eeren
Te leyden door den dronck, wilt ghy haer min begeeren,
De straffe volgt de sond, dus wilt de sonde vlie'n:
Want die een anders schand soeckt, sal syn eigen sien.

Forum # 9 (jul. 6 - sep. 4, 2011)

Posted 06 July 2011 - 12:58 PM
The meaning of MIN-ERVA is explained in the OLB itself, but maybe some got lost in the English translation.

[033/21], [O+S p.49]
THÁ NY.HEL.LÉNJA. THAM FON HJRA ÀJN NÔME MIN.ERVA HÉTE. GOD SÉTEN WAS
Toen Nyhalennia, die van haar eigen naam Min-erva heette, goed gezeten was,
When Nyhalennia, whose own name was Min-erva, was well established [or: seated],

ÀND THA KRÉKALANDER HJA TOMET EVEN HÀRDE MINADE AS VS AJN FOLK.
en de Krekalanders haar soms [ ( * ) "temet" (Westfries) = bijna] evenzeer lief hadden [of: minden] als ons eigen volk,
and the Krekalanders loved her [almost] as well as our own people did,

THÁ KÉMON THÉR SVME FORSTA ÀND PRESTERA VPPERA BURCH
toen kwamen daar eenige vorsten en priesteren op hare burgt
there came some princes and priests to her citadel

ÀND FRÉJON MIN.ERVA HWÉR OF HJRA ERVA LÉJON.
en vraagden Min-erva, waar hare erven gelegen waren.
and asked Min-erva where her possessions lay.

HEL.LÉNJA ANDERE
Hellenia antwoorde
Hellenia answered,

MINA ERVA DRÉG IK OM IN MINA BOSM.
mijne erven draag ik om in mijn boezem,
I carry my possessions in my own bosom.

HWÀT IK URVEN HÀV IS LJAFDE VR WISDOM. RJUCHT ÀND FRYDOM.
't gene [wat] ik geërfd heb is liefde tot wijsheid, rechtvaardigheid en vrijheid.
What I have inherited is the love of wisdom, justice [or: right], and freedom.

( * ) Note that Ottema did not know that TOMET ("temet" in the current Westfrisian dialect) means "almost" (Dutch: bijna), as he translated it with "soms" (sometimes).

###Posted 06 July 2011 - 05:00 PM

Abramelin, on 06 July 2011 - 01:35 PM, said:
Btw, I once had a gf who lived in a small village south of Utrecht, and she used 'temet' a lot. It did indeed mean 'bijna' (= almost), but as far as I know it's an old Dutch word: 
http://synoniemen.net/index.php?zoekterm=temet, 
http://synoniemen.net/grafisch.php?w=temet, 
http://www.encyclo.nl/begrip/Temet

Aha, thanks for that.

Yes, it could indeed be old-Dutch (which is in fact old-Westfrisian anyway, because before 1100 AD, the whole area was known as Frisia; the name 'Holland' was introduced only then by Floris II "the fat").

I just know it's still (also) part of the current Westfrisian dialect.

According to your first link, "temet" can also mean sometimes.
I didn't know that.
So Ottema was not that wrong after all, but I think in the context "almost" makes more sense.

### Posted 06 July 2011 - 07:17 PM

The Puzzler, on 06 July 2011 - 01:33 PM, said:
I don't see anywhere there that explains what her name actually means.

I will get you started:

MINERVA = my (inherited) properties or possessions

The following is a complete list of OLB-fragments with "ERV", the root-word of the name "MINERVA".

The varieties of the word are:

ERVE, ERVA (verb; present perfect = URVEN HÀV) = to inherit (dutch: erven);
- - - fragments 1,2,4,5,10
ERV (noun; plural: ERVA) = (inherited or inheritable) ground, property, possessions (dutch: erf, geërfd bezit);
- - - fragments 3,7,8,9,11,12,13,14
ERVA (noun, plural) = heirs (dutch: erven, erfgenamen);
- - - fragment 6
ERV.LIK (adjective) = hereditary (dutch: erfelijk);
- - - fragment 15

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

1. [hidde/12]
SAHWERSA THV SE ERVE
[O+S p.3]
Bijaldien gij ze erft
In case you inherit them

2. [019/31]
ÁK MÉI SIN JONGSTE SVN THAT ERVA
[O+S p.31]
Ook mag zijn jongste zoon dat erven
and the [his] youngest son may inherit it

3. [024/27]
... EN PLÀK UTKJASA TO HUS ÀND ERV.
THAT ERV MÉI EN ROND.DÉL WÉSA ...
[O+S p.37]
... eene plek uitkiezen tot een huis en erf.
Dat erf mag een ronddeel zijn ...
... choose an open piece of ground [a spot] for a house and ground [or: property];
the ground shall [may] be enclosed [a roundel?] ...

4. [025/01]
SIN JONGSTE SVN MÉI THÀT GOD ERVA
[O+S p.37]
Zijn jongste zoon mag dat goed erven
His youngest son may inherit this [goods, property]

5. [028/16]
SÁ MOTON HJARA NÉSTUN. HJARA DÉL ERVA
[O+S p.43]
dan moeten hunne naasten hun deel erven
their nearest relatives inherit their portion

6. [028/25]
SA MOTON SINA ERVA EN ÉL MANNIS DÉL HÀVA
[O+S p.43]
dan moeten zijne erven een geheel mansdeel hebben
his heirs shall receive a whole [man's] portion

7. [029/06]
ÀND HI HETH HUS NACH ERV
[O+S p.43]
en heeft hij huis noch erf
and has no house or patrimony [or: property]

8. [033/27]
HWÉR OF HJRA ERVA LÉJON.
[O+S p.49]
waar hare erven gelegen waren.
where her possessions lay.

9. [033/29]
MINA ERVA DRÉG IK
[O+S p.49]
mijne erven draag ik
I carry my possessions

10. [033/30]
HWÀT IK URVEN HÀV
[wat] ik geërfd heb...
What I have inherited...

11. [071/22]
JEF THA FÉRE KRÉKALANDA TO THA ERVA FRYA.S HÉRA
[O+S p.101]
Indien de verre Krekalanden tot het erfdeel van Frya behooren
If the distant Greeks belong to the direct descent of Frya

12. [168/27]
BÛTA THÀT FVLLE ERV MINRE ÉM
HETH.ER MI EN ÉLE PLEK GRVND JÉVEN
THÀT AN MINA ERVA PÁLADE
[O+S p.227]
Behalve het volle erf van mijn oom,
heeft hij mij eene plek gronds gegeven,
die aan mijn erf paalde
In addition to the entire inheritance [that is: grounds or property] of my uncle,
he gave me some land
which joined [bordered] my inheritance

13. [197/32]
ALHWENNE THÉR NÉN GOLA NER SLÁVONA NACH TARTARA MÁRA
FON FRYAS ERV TO VRDRÍVANE SEND
[O+S p.237]
tot dat er geen Golen, noch Slaven, noch Tartaren meer
van Fryas erf te verdrijven zijn
till there are no more Gauls, Slaves, or Tartars
to be driven out of Frya's inheritance

14. [203/10]
FINDA.S FOLK FON FRÍA.S ERV DRÍVA
[O+S p.245]
Findas volk van Fryas erf verdrijven
drive Finda's people out of Frya's inheritance

15. [209/06]
FRANK ALSA HÉDE THENE ÉROSTE KÀNING HÉTEN
THAM HIM SELVA MITH HULPE FON THA VRBRÛDA FÁMNA
TO ERV.LIK KÀNING OVER SIN FOLK MÁKAD HÉDE
[O+S p.251]
Frank zoo had de eerste koning geheeten,
die zich zelf met hulp van de ontaarde Maagden
tot erflijk koning over zijn volk gemaakt had
the name of their first king was Frank,
who, by the help of the degenerate maidens,
had had himself made hereditary king over his people

### Posted 07 July 2011 - 03:10 PM

Abramelin, on 07 July 2011 - 02:56 PM, said:
And if even that is of no help, the last step would be trying to find out if the word is a loanword from Latin, Greek, or for instance Hebrew.

Or... in case the OLB would be authentic, if the word has been a loanword into Latin, Greek and/or other old languages.

We may have re-adopted words from Latin and Greek, that once had their origin in the Fryan (or OLB) language.

This thread has many examples of where this is acually most plausible.

(example: DEL-TA)

### Posted 14 July 2011 - 10:25 AM

Abramelin, on 13 July 2011 - 01:00 PM, said:
The Voynich manuscript has been carbondated to the 14th (?) century, the OLB has been dated (the paper it was written on that is) to the 19th century.

In the most scientific publication about the paper-age study, "The Oera Linda Boek - A literary forgery and its paper", by A. Kardinaal, E. v.d. Grijn, H. Porck; published in: IPH Congress Book 16 (2006), p. 177-185; discussed earlier, it is merely suggested that the paper is from the 19th century, but not clearly stated.

In fact, the various results of the study are so contradicting, that it is very well possible, that the researchers are not looking in the right direction.

They have compared with known 19th century paper making techniques in western Europe and America, but not (older) techniques from (for example) China or Byzantium.

### Posted 14 July 2011 - 10:45 AM

Abramelin, on 13 July 2011 - 05:57 PM, said:
And everything that you will read in the OLB can be traced back to sources that were available in the 19th century.

OLB has three categories of information:
1. info that agrees with other known sources,
2. info that is in conflict with other known info, and
3. info that is not in agreement, nor in conflict with other known info.

Hoax theorists will say that the type 1 info was based on the 19th century known sources, and that all the rest was made up from fantasy (or maybe partly on oral tradition).

The problem with this is twofold:

1) The 19th century sources will also have contained much information that was believed at that time, but that we now know is nonsense. Nothing of that in the OLB. The supposed 'hoaxers' will have been extremely lucky with choosing their sources.

2) In the time that the OLB was made public, much more of its content was considered to be ridiculous, than now. The knowledge may all have been available somewhere, but there were no people who had access to all of it; this true information will have been scattered. After this year of discussing OLB here, I think we agree that it's at least possible that OLB is authentic. The dominant view of the late 19th century, of the mid-thirties and of Jensma (2004), is that OLB is impossibly authentic. We have gradually come to a different conclusion.

### Posted 17 July 2011 - 08:38 AM

The Puzzler, on 15 July 2011 - 12:10 AM, said:
"... Their tentative existence in the 4th century is confirmed archaeologically by the discovery of a type of earthenware unique to 4th century Frisia, called terp Tritzum, showing that an unknown number of Frisii were resettled in Flanders and Kent...

The lands of the Frisii would be abandoned by c. 400 due to flooding caused by a marine transgression and laid empty for a century, when changing environmental conditions again made the region habitable. At that time settlers would repopulate the region and come to be known as 'Frisians'. Medieval and later accounts of 'Frisians' refer to these 'new Frisians' rather than to the ancient Frisii.
...
In the 3rd and 4th centuries the population of Frisia steadily decreased, and by the 5th century the population had dropped dramatically. The coastal lands would remain largely unpopulated for the next two centuries. When conditions improved Frisia would receive an influx of new settlers, mostly Saxons, and these would eventually be referred to as 'Frisians', though they were not necessarily descended from the ancient Frisii. It is these 'new Frisians' who are largely the ancestors of the medieval and modern Frisians."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frisii

I think that's interesting - it's like the ancient FRISII disappeared from history and were replaced by another form of Frisian.

This is important indeed and it agrees with something discussed earlier; Albert Delahaye's theory that the western half of present 'the Netherlands' was mostly uninhabitable because of flooding between the Roman and the Frankish occupation. That is: in most of the first millennium AD.

Some toponyms of Westfriesland are strikingly similar to ones in Westflanders and Calais region (also think of Delahayes long list of "fries-" toponyms in that region). As Joël Vandemaele argued, some of what is described in the OLB (and its language) has more continuity in Westflanders (Belgium) than anywhere in the Netherlands (e.g. supposed Frya worship and the spelling of Frya itself ~ ~ ~ more research needed as Vandemaele did not provide sources for this).

Therefore, it's likely that the most significant e-migration from "ancient Frisii" (or Fryans) from what is now North-Holland, was directly southwards, while most of the re-migration in the late-first and early-second millennium also took place from here (Westflanders, NW-France).

Whether they re-migrated to Westfriesland/ North Holland because the land became more habitable again, or because they fled from the Christenings (and just reclaimed the land), I don't know. Probably it was a combination of this.

The 'Frisians' in what is now Friesland will be a more Danish/ German mix.

There is indeed quite a cultural difference between the Dutch province of Friesland (the nowaday 'real' Frisians), and the region Westfriesland in the province of North-Holland.

In the OLB and in the so-called fantastic Frisian historiography, Westfriesland is much more important than in the 'official' history. Medemblik would even have been the capital of 'old-Frisia'.

There's been many ancient archaeological finds in North-Holland, dating back thousands of years, but there is indeed no continuity. Not much happened during the first millennium AD.

That's the problem, and probably the main cause of why OLB is misunderstood and not taken seriously by mainstream science in NL.

### Posted 17 July 2011 - 09:12 AM

Otharus, on 17 July 2011 - 08:38 AM, said:
There is indeed quite a cultural difference between the Dutch province of Friesland (the nowaday 'real' Frisians), and the region Westfriesland in the province of North-Holland.

I'll mention two significant differences:

1) While "Friesland" has a long tradition of (orthodox) Bible-worship, in Westfriesland the church was never very powerful and churches started closing already in the late sixties.

2) While "Friesland" always had a strong 'nobility-culture' (dutch: "adel"); inheritance of accumulating wealth and power, Westfriesland did not have this (in the last few hundred years).

While OLB at first sight might be Frisian nationalistic, it's almost the complete opposite as it will be an uncomfortable read for both Frisian Bible-worshippers and Frisian nobility.

This is why the Fryske Akademy forcefully rejected the OLB,
this is why Goffe Jensma (working for the FA) wrote his desperate conspiracy theory against the OLB,
and this is why (19th century Frisian nationalist) Halbertsma could not have created the OLB (as Abe and Knul suggested).


### Posted 17 July 2011 - 06:52 PM

The Puzzler, on 17 July 2011 - 03:03 PM, said:
Has anyone sussed this guy out as having written the OLB?
"Gysbert Japicx (Bolsward, Friesland 1603–1666) was a Frisian writer, poet, schoolteacher and cantor."

IF the OLB was made up, it was done after 1853, when remains of pole-dwellings were discovered at the Zürich lake (Switzerland). (Or at least the parts of OLB were these pole-dwellings are mentioned).

From Sandbach's translation of Ottema's introduction to his 1876 publication of the OLB (p.XVI):

Since the last twenty years attention has been directed to the remains of the dwellings on piles, first observed in the Swiss lakes, and afterwards in other parts of Europe. (See Dr B. Hückert, "Die Pfahlbauten". Wurzburg, 1869. or T. C. Winkler, in the " Volksalmanak," t. N. v. A. 1867.) When they were found, endeavours were made to discover, by the existing fragments of arms, tools, and household articles, by whom and when these dwellings had been inhabited. There are no accounts of them in historical writers, beyond what Herodotus writes in book V. chapter 16, of the "Paeonen". The only trace that has been found is in one of the panels of Trajan's Pillar, in which the destruction of a pile village in Dacia is represented.

Doubly important, therefore, is it to learn from the writing of Apollonia that she, as "Burgtmaagd" (chief of the virgins), about 540 years before Christ, made a journey up the Rhine to Switzerland, and there became acquainted with the Lake Dwellers (Marsaten). She describes their dwellings built upon piles —the people themselves— their manners and customs. She relates that they lived by fishing and hunting, and that they prepared the skins of the animals with the bark of the birch-tree in order to sell the furs to the Rhine boatmen, who brought them into commerce. This account of the pile dwellings in the Swiss lakes can only have been written in the time when these dwellings still existed and were lived in. In the second part of the writing, Koneréd Oera Linda relates that Adel, the son of Friso (250 years before Christ), visited the pile dwellings in Switzerland with his wife Ifkja.

Later than this account there is no mention by any writer whatever of the pile dwellings, and the subject has remained for twenty centuries utterly unknown until 1853, when an extraordinary low state of the water led to the discovery of these dwellings. Therefore no one could have invented this account in the intervening period.

### Posted 17 July 2011 - 07:14 PM

Otharus, on 17 July 2011 - 06:52 PM, said:
IF the OLB was made up, it was done after 1853...

But this is unlikely, because of various witness accounts (discussed earlier, dating back as early as 1831) about the existence of an old book that the Over de Linden family already had 'in strange letters' and being about the ancient family history.

### Posted 17 July 2011 - 07:35 PM

Abramelin, on 17 July 2011 - 07:21 PM, said:
Halbertsma's gigantic library is accessable online. It is unbelievable what this guy had read throughout his life, AND collected/bought. AND wrote, btw.

So far you have ignored all arguments why he could not have done it.
Therefore, I won't waste my time with this.




### Posted 23 August 2011 - 07:10 PM

Knul, on 09 August 2011 - 10:56 PM, said:
In my opinion the presentation in a selfmade wheelscript has been added later to the text as is shown in the investigation of the paper. The outside is browned to make it older, but the innerside stayed white.

How is this 'shown in the investigation of the paper'?

The paper study gave no answer as to how the paper would have been coloured.

When I asked the head of the research team, his answer was that he would provide no further information.

They still don't know if, let alone how, the paper was artificially made to look old.


### Posted 23 August 2011 - 07:22 PM

Abramelin, on 12 August 2011 - 10:45 PM, said:
"The Firaesi (Latinization) or Phiraisoi (original Greek) are a people listed in Ptolemy’s Geography (2.10). ...
The Firaesi are not mentioned elsewhere in history"
Any kid with some knowledge of the Frisian history would see the obvious connection (Frisii = Firaesi / southern Sweden).

I agree. Very interesting.

### Posted 23 August 2011 - 07:35 PM

Abramelin, on 16 August 2011 - 02:49 PM, said:
To give something of summary (including former posts 5996/7/8 on page 400):

The Menapians must have been closely related to the Frisians, and at a certain time they inhabited an area from Calais (France) up to Leiden (Netherlands). They spoke a language closely related to Old Frisian. They probably settled in east Ireland, and lived there as neighbours of the Cauci who may have come from coastal Germany.

The Chauci, neighbours of the Frisians and (often) close allies, had all the characteristics (according to Tacitus and others) of the OLB Fryans/Frisians. They were both known as very civilized, peacefull... and as sea raiders.

Both the Menapii and Chaucii must have been very influential tribes, the Chaucii even being dominant at sea, and both connected with Ireland.


They must indeed have been tribes of the same origin.
I wonder what the original meaning of their names might have been.

### Posted 23 August 2011 - 08:04 PM

The Puzzler, on 23 August 2011 - 04:23 AM, said:
Example: You have a reconstructed made up word X
you then say well this word Y and this word Z came from the made up word X...

Or you can have a word A
That stays A and is still A
only through time the meanings spread out.

I like this analytical way of thinking.

### Posted 24 August 2011 - 08:47 AM

Knul, on 24 August 2011 - 03:15 AM, said:
Please read the chapter on Stadermann on my website www.rodinbook.nl.

Thanks for adding that chapter to your site, I had not read it yet.

Because it's in Dutch, I'll translate the relevant parts for the English readers:

Dutch:
Een oud collega vertelt: "Ernest Stadermann, die in 1843 als voorstrijder van een koppel vrijheidslievende Saksen zich verzette tegen de regering met woord en geschrift en wapenen, was boekbinder en boekrestaurateur van beroep. Hij moest de wijk nemen en kwam op een schoen en een slof, in Den Helder aan."

English:
"According to an old colleague, "Ernest Stadermann, who in 1843 was frontrunner of a group of freedom-loving Saxons that resisted against the government with speech, writings and weapons, was bookbinder and -restorer. He had to flee and arrived in Den Helder without possessions."

(The source of this fragment is not mentioned. Please add.)

A second fragment by mr. Berk in "Wie heeft het Oera Linda Boek geschreven" (1877) by J.B. Vinckers:

Dutch:
In 1843 was hij het hoofd van een troep vrijheidlievende Saksers, die zich tegen het landsvaderlijk bestuur verzetten. Eerst met mond en pen, later met de wapens. Hij moest vluchten en kwam op een stroowisch in den Helder aandrijven.

English:
"In 1843 he was the leader of a group freedom-loving Saxons, who resisted against the treacherous government. First by speach and writings, later by weapons. He had to flee and arrived in Den Helder without possessions."

You wrote:

Knul, on 09 August 2011 - 10:56 PM, said:
This was confirmed by my own investigations based on a criminal profile.
...
I blame Stadermann for this, who fled from Germany for prosecution of dangerous criminal activities, and deceived Cornelis over de Linden.

Your choice of words suggest that Stadermann was a dangerous criminal, while in my opinion he was more like a political refugee.



### Posted 24 August 2011 - 05:34 PM

Knul, on 09 August 2011 - 10:56 PM, said:
The proof was in fact simple.
In the OLB Oldenglish names of months are used instead of Olddutch or Oldfrisian names.
Halbertma wrote an article on the sellamonth (pancake month) and studied the relation between Oldenglish and Oldfrisian.

FACTS:

1) In the OLB, the following month-names are given, in the part supposedly written by Frétho-rik Oera-Linda, circa 300 BC. (page 115-116 of original manuscript):
ARNE MÔNATH (Jensma: harvest month - Aug.)
WOLFA-MÔNATH (J: Wolfsmaand - Dec.)
HERDE MÔNATH (J: Hardemaand - Jan.)
SELLA MÔNATH (J: Sellemaand - Feb.)
WINNA or MINNA MÔNATH (J: Winne-/ Minnemaand - May)
(FRJUNDSKIP or WINNE MONATH is also mentioned on page 93; MINNA MÔNATH is also mentioned on page 157)

(NOTE: the table on rodinbook.nl contains mistakes)

2) According to Knul (source unknown) the old-English names (at some point?) of these months were:
Weodmonath
Wulfamonath
Hrethmonath
Solmonath
Thrimilce

3) In 1855 an article by Joost Halbertsma was published (Nieuwe Friese Volks-almanak) about the meaning of "Sellemaand" (February). He had a fascination for old English in relation to the Frisian language.

4) Arenmaand, Wolfsmaand, Hardemaand, Sellemaand, Winnemaand, Minnemaand are according to other sources also known in old Dutch and -Flemmish.

CONCLUSION
The month names are not at all "simple proof" that Halbertsma was involved in the creation of the OLB, as Knul states.

### Posted 26 August 2011 - 07:17 AM

The Puzzler, on 26 August 2011 - 06:03 AM, said:
I don't know if it's exactly Tusschenland (in red italics) but it tells me the word probably does not come from the name of Tuisco but rather a descriptive name calling an area of Germany - Twiskland - 'Between Land'.

That is correct.

Twiskland = in-between-land

note that in Swedish, Danish and Norwegian "Germany" is called "Tyskland"

In Northfrisian (Nordfriisk): "Tjüschlönj"

A village in Westfriesland is called Twisk.

Betwix (oldenglish) =
Betwixt (middle english) = between
(http://www.thefreedictionary.com/betwixt)

It's common that "sk" sounds changed into "ks" or "x".

### Posted 26 August 2011 - 11:36 AM

Otharus, on 26 August 2011 - 07:17 AM, said:
note that in Swedish, Danish and Norwegian "Germany" is called "Tyskland"
In Northfrisian (Nordfriisk): "Tjüschlönj"

I'd like to add:

Faroese: Týskland
Icelandic: Þýskaland (Thýskaland)

(Note: as far as I know, the Scandinavian Y is pronounced like the Dutch Ú or UU)

The OLB-etymology (Twixland or In-between-land) makes much more sense to me than the one Wikipedia gives:

"From Old High German diutisc or similar, from Proto-Germanic *Þeudiskaz, meaning "of the people", "of the folk"
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_Germany)."

Because it is more far-fetched, this must be a later meaning, just like the explanation with the mythological Tuisco or Tuisto must be of later date.

Also see improvised map. Still thinking about it...

### Posted 27 August 2011 - 09:40 AM

I don't think were done yet with "TWISKLAND".

Otharus, on 26 August 2011 - 07:17 AM, said:
A village in Westfriesland is called Twisk.

On the Dutch Wiki-page about this village it says that the name is most likely derived from the oldfrisian word "twisca", meaning "between".
(Maar het meest waarschijnlijke is dat de plaatsnaam is afgeleid van het Oudfriese twisca, wat "tussen" betekent.)

Now let's consider the four following facts:
Fact 1: "twisca" in oldfrisian meant "between"; Dutch: tusschen => tussen.
Fact 2: "betwix(t)" in old- and middle-english meant "between"
Fact 3: in Danish, Swedish, Norwegian, Faroese and Icelandic, the name for Germany is (varieties of) "Tyskland" (which in Dutch would be spelled "Tuuskland").
Fact 4: Only in German and Dutch, the name for Germany is Deutsch- or Duitsland; in the rest of Europe, other varieties are used (mostly based on GERMAN or ALLEMAN; see picture).

Question:
What is more likely to have been the original sounds:

T..SK or D..TS?

Note that in oldschool Dutch, "Duitsland" was spelled "Duitschland" (more like German "Deutschland") and that "sch" is a softer (and more modern?) form of "sk".

{see seperate post for picture}

### Posted 27 August 2011 - 09:57 AM

Knul, on 09 August 2011 - 10:56 PM, said:
In my opinion the presentation in a selfmade wheelscript has been added later to the text as is shown in the investigation of the paper.

Mister Knul, you still have not answered my question, which is most relevant:

How did the paper investigation 'show that the wheelscript was added later to the text'?

### Posted 27 August 2011 - 10:27 AM

Knul, on 26 August 2011 - 02:28 PM, said:
I found so many similarities with the pseudo Oldfrian language of the OLB, that I think there must be a connection.

So there are many similarities between old-frisian (ca. 1000-1500 AD?) and the OLB-language (supposedly ca. 600 BC-0).

This can be explained in two ways:
1) If the OLB is fake, the OLB-language is based on old-Frisian.
2) If the OLB is real, old-Frisian is based on the OLB-language.

As we have seen, the OLB-language not only has similarities with old-Frisian, but also with German, Dutch, English, the Scandinavian languages, old-Greek, and more.

That the OLB-language would be "pseudo Oldfrian" as you call it, is far from proven.

All arguments why OLB would have to be fake are weak.

### Posted 27 August 2011 - 11:56 AM

The Puzzler, on 27 August 2011 - 11:53 AM, said:
... if I look at it - the word dui-tsch seems to have an added dui sound before the twisk sound - almost like this is made of 2 words.

Remember that "w" is double-"u", so "twisk" is actually "tuuisk".

### Posted 29 August 2011 - 08:47 AM

The Puzzler, on 29 August 2011 - 02:45 AM, said:
One of the German Gods mentioned by Caesar is Mercury, who has been said is Lugus. Firstly, the name itself reminded of the word LIGURIANS. I feel their naem may even be a name for followers of Lugus. Since Lugus was this trade God, and the Ligurians seem to be the ones sailing and trading, it seems not only logical but as well as sounds like it.

"The exact etymology of Lugus is unknown and contested. The Proto-Celtic root of the name, *lug-, is generally believed to have been derived from one of several different Proto-Indo-European roots, such as *leug- "black",[1][2] *leuǵ- "to break",[3] and *leugʰ- "to swear an oath",[4] It was once thought that the root may be derived from Proto-Indo-European *leuk- "to shine", but there are difficulties with this etymology and few modern scholars accept it as being possible (notably because Proto-Indo-European *-k- never produced Proto-Celtic *-g-[5])."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lugus

I was wondering if Lugus might be a Frisian name...but there is not Lug in the dictionary but there is LUK..

The OLB-word that comes to my mind is "LUKIGOSTE", in the 'ode to Frya' (p.18-19 Ottema/ Sandbach).
Translated by Ottema and Jensma as " gelukkigste" (by Sandbach: "most happy").

Another word, with an almost opposite meaning: lugubrious (Dutch: luguber).

A possibly related name: Lucas (Luke).

### Posted 29 August 2011 - 12:26 PM

Otharus, on 29 August 2011 - 08:47 AM, said:
The OLB-word that comes to my mind is "LUKIGOSTE", in the 'ode to Frya' (p.18-19 Ottema/ Sandbach). ...

I forgot to mention the obvious connection with the english "luck",
and (less obvious) the dutch "leuk" (= nice, funny)


### Posted 31 August 2011 - 11:01 AM

Knul, on 31 August 2011 - 02:47 AM, said:
Apart from this, if the manuscript was really old, how come the pages white in the inner side and browned at the outside ?

Ottema already answered to this in the preface of his 1876 edition (page IX-X, point 3), where he replies to the statements made by Muller and Smidt van Gelder about the paper.

This preface was not translated by Sandbach.
I will give an improvised translation here.

Original, Dutch:
"Als het papier gekleurd, d. i. geverfd was, dan moest de kleurstof in het papier zijn ingedrongen, doch dit is niet het geval. Op de breuk ziet men duidelijk dat van binnen de vezel wit is. De vuile geelachtig zwarte kleur van het papier is alleen het gevolg van den tijd, en de uitwerking van den ouderdom in een verloop van meer dan zes eeuwen.

Dat overigens het papier nog zoo goed geconserveerd is en vooral door vocht of mot niet geleden heeft, is een bewijs voor de zorgvuldige bewaring van het H. S. als een om het zoo te noemen familie-heiligdom."

Translated into English:
"If the paper had been artificially colored (painted), the pigment would have penetrated the paper, which is not the case. At places where the paper is broken, one can clearly see that the inside is white. The dirty yellowish black color of the paper is only caused by time, and the effect of its age after more than six centuries.

That the paper was still so well preserved and particularly not damaged by moist or moths, is proof of the careful keeping of the manuscript as a so-called family treasure."

You will agree that the initial tea-coloring theory does not hold, but I guess that you will repeat the smoke-coloring theory.

My answer to that would be that be paper investigators should examine the chemistry of the outer layer of the paper, as this might give an answer to any theory about artificial coloring. Their research does not say anything about it. The head of the research team refused to answer my question about it.

Why don't they do a simple Carbon-dating test?

That the inside of the paper is white, while the outside is yellow-greyish, by no means proves that the paper is artificially coloured. It's only normal that the outside would colour over time, while the inside would remain the original colour.

### Posted 31 August 2011 - 11:47 AM

Knul's website (in Dutch) about his Oera Linda hoax-theory, starts with (underlining by me):

"In 1867 kwam het Oera Linda Boek aan het licht. Tien jaar later bewees J. Beckering Vinckers op taalkundige gronden dat er sprake was van een mystificatie. Daarna begon de zoektocht naar de schrijver van het bijzondere boek..."

Translated:

"In 1867 the Oera Linda Book came to light. Ten years later J. Beckering Vinckers proved on linguistic grounds that it had to be a hoax. After that the quest for the author of the remarkable book started...

I have argued before that Vinckers' (1876) article was highly emotional and (therefore) partly irrational.

He admitted that the goal of his 'critical review' was "to ridicule the language of the OLB".

This proves that his initial viewpoint was not neutral, as it should have been.

Even though I am not a linguist, I will try to identify the mistakes in his conclusions in the near future, but for now I will repeat some of his quotes (translated by me) that show his negative (hostile) attitude towards the OLB.

(I have underlined a particularly interesting fragment.)

My question to Knul for now:

Did you actually study Vinckers' article and do you accept all of his conclusions?

Otharus, on 15 October 2010 - 09:29 AM, said:

Some quotes from J.B. Vinckers' (1876) 'critical review' (my translation).

Title:
"The falseness of the Oera Linda-Bôk, as proven by the the gibberish in which it was written"

"Gibberish, no better than Negro-English; gibberish, that makes the OLB a mark of infamy in the collection of most illustrous remains of old-frisian language."

"Another example of a clownish anachronism. But why do I say 'another anachronism', - the whole OLB is one single colossal anachronism from beginning to end, which for example is revealed in its long train of words, that only slowly emerged in the French and Dutch language in the Middle ages as degenerated Latin. Behold a mess, susceptible for expansion."

"I have reached my goal; I aimed at ridiculing the language of the OLB."

"But that some Frisian scholars in the year of our Lord 1876 ... are still so ignorant of the grammar of precious literary remains of Frisian antiquity, that they accept a repulsive linguistic botch job like the OLB, after long term study, to be a true remains of overold Frisian, that they indeed, declare the barbaric gibberish in which it was written to be more old and pure than the flawless language of the Oldfrisian certificates, that is indeed an utterly deplorable phenomenon."

Original quotes in Dutch:

"De onechtheid van het Oera Linda-Bôk, aangetoond uit de wartaal waarin het geschreven is"

"een wartaal, geen haar beter dan Neger-Engelsch; een wartaal, die het O.-L.-B. maakt tot een schandvlek in de rij der hoogst gewigtige overblijfselen van O.friesche taal."

"Dit is dus weer een potsierlijk anachronisme. Doch wat praat ik van ‘weer een anachronisme,’ - het geheele O.-L.-B. is van 't begin tot het einde één enkel kolossaal anachronisme, dat zich onder anderen ook openbaart in dien langen sleep van woorden, welken we eerst in de middeleeuwen langzamerhand door verbastering van 't Latijn in den mond van Franschman of Nederlander in de wereld zien komen. Zie hier een zootje, dat voor veel vermeerdering vatbaar is."

"Het doel dat ik mij voorstelde is bereikt; ik heb de taal van het Oera-Linda-Boek belagchelijk willen maken."

"Maar dat Friesche geleerden in den jare onzes Heeren 1876 ... nog zulke vreemdelingen in de grammatica van de kostbare letterkundige overblijfsels der Friesche oudheid zijn, dat zij een afschuwelijk taalkundig knoeiwerk als het Oera-Linda-boek, na langdurige studie, voor een echt gedenkstuk van overoud Friesch hebben aangezien, ja, de barbaarsche wartaal waarin het is geschreven voor ouder en zuiverder verklaren dan de zoo zuivere taal der Oudfriesche oorkonden, dat is inderdaad een zeer betreurenswaardig verschijnsel."

The underlined fragment shows that Vinckers assumes that the French and Dutch language "only slowly emerged in the Middle ages as degenerated Latin".

I think we can now agree that this is a huge misconception and this may even be the major clue as to the bizarre misunderstanding of the OLB.

Frisians wanted to believe that their language and culture is more ancient and original than Dutch, while in fact old-Frisian and old-Dutch are cousins; descendants of a shared ancestor.

I'm not sure if I express myself clearly, as I'm thinking out loud, but I have the feeling that this is approaching the core of the issue.

### Posted 31 August 2011 - 09:15 PM

Knul, on 31 August 2011 - 07:08 PM, said:
Hello Otharus, I agree with you, that a chemical analysis or carbon dating would be very useful, but alas it will not make an end on the discussions, as the paper analysis in the 19th century did not end the discussions either.

IF the outcome would be the same; that it's 19th century paper, the discussion will still be about the question whether it's a 19th century copy of an older original, or whether the total work would be a recent fabrication. The question how the paper was made to look old would still have to be answered.

BUT, if the outcome would be that the paper is much older and that it was colored by age, which is still possible, the discussion would continue in a whole new direction...


### Posted 31 August 2011 - 09:30 PM

Knul, on 31 August 2011 - 07:08 PM, said:
So, if Halbertsma would have written the OLB, he has not been the author of the juul-text, for which I blame Stadermann and son.

Interesting phraseology; you blame them for it...
If they created it, they were geniuses i.m.o., not criminals as you suggest with your "cold case investigation" and your "offender profile".

Quote
I noted that the copier used - the easy way - only a part of the juul script, whereas the real author would have made use of the full range of letters.

What letter(s) was/were not used and how would this prove that the copyist lived in the 19th century and not in the 13th century?

### Posted 01 September 2011 - 08:28 AM

Abramelin, on 31 August 2011 - 06:54 PM, said:
"Thêra thêr in da hâge marka sâton, thêr anna Twisklanda pâlon, wrdon Saxmanna hêton, uthâwede hja immer wêpned wêron vr thaet wilde kwik aend vrwildarda Britne. Thêr to boppa hêdon wi tha nôma Landsâton, Mârsata aend Holt jefta Wodsâta."

"Those who were settled in the higher marches bounded by Twisklanden (Germany) were called Saxmannen, because they were always armed against the wild beasts and the savage Britons. Besides these we had the names Landzaten (natives of the land), Marzaten (natives of the fens), and Hout or Woud zaten (natives of the woods)."

"Holt jefta Wodsâta", that means that tribe was called Holtsâta or Wodsâta.

"Holstein (German pronunciation: [ˈhɔlʃtaɪn]) (Northern Low Saxon: Holsteen, Danish: Holsten, Latin and historical English: Holsatia) is the region between the rivers Elbe and Eider. It is part of Schleswig-Holstein, the northernmost state of Germany."

"Holstein's name comes from the Holcetae, a Saxon tribe mentioned by Adam of Bremen as living on the north bank of the Elbe, to the west of Hamburg. The name means "dwellers in the wood" (Northern Low Saxon: Hol(t)saten; German: Holzsassen)."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holstein

This "Holtsaterne" on that map is most interesting!

For the record, the fragment is from page 49 of the original manuscript and page 70-71 of Ottema and Sandbach.

You and Knul will argue that the supposed creators of the OLB must have known this map (or other sources that we have not identified yet), but Ottema and even Jensma did not seem to have known about it.

Jensma's Dutch translation and footnote (2006):

"Daarenboven hadden wij de namen Landzaten, Marezaten en Hout- of Woldzaten."

Footnote:
"Landzaten, Marezaten en Hout- of Woldzaten - Op te vatten als zij die in of op land, meer en bos zaten, dus land-, meer- en bosbewoners. Van deze namen verwijst 'Marezaten' naar de 'Marsati', een door Tacitus genoemde inheemse Germaanse stam."

English translation of the footnote:
"Landzaten, Marezaten and Hout- of Woldzaten - To be interpreted as those who live on land, lakes and in the woods, therefore land-, lake- and wood-dwellers. Of these names, 'Marezaten' refers to 'Marsati', a native Germanic tribe that was mentioned by Tacitus."

We keep discovering details from the OLB that are validated by historic sources and maps and other languages.

Hoax theorists believe that the supposed creators knew all these things that even the academic specialist of our times Jensma did not know when he published about the OLB in 2004 and 2006.

Yet we have not identified a single detail that CANNOT be true.

How realistic are the various hoax theories by now?

### Posted 01 September 2011 - 09:24 AM

Knul, on 31 August 2011 - 07:08 PM, said:
What bothers me most, is, that both the text of Ottema and his translation are full of mistakes, misinterpretations and inconsequent spelling (u-v, y-i, ae-a).

Example 1

0046 Thâ tha skinslâvona vsa tâl måchtich wêron, thâ klivadon hja tha hêrtoga ånd êthelinga an bord, ånd kêthon, hja moston [3M] thene Magy hêroch wertha, sa kvndon hjara svnum vpfolgja tham, oni thrvch‑et folk kêron to wrdane.
Ottema: Toen de schijn-slaven onze taal machtig waren, klampten zij de Hertogen en Edelingen aan boord en zeiden, dat zij den Magy onderhoorig moesten worden, dan konden hunne zoonen hen opvolgen zonder door het volk gekozen worden.
Sandbach: "When these pretended prisoners had learned our language, [...] they persuaded the dukes and nobles that they should become subject to the Magy - that then their sons would succeed to them without having to be elected.

Apparently Sandbach mistrusted the translation of Ottema and decided not to translate klivadon an bord - klampten aan boord. However bord = bard, Engl. beard. The expression kliva an bord = stroop aan de baard (of om de mond) smeren, d.w.z. vleien Eng. flatter. Why should Magy fix the noblemen on a ship to get something done to persuade them ?

For the record, you are referring to page 3, line 8 of the original manuscript (Ottema and Sandbach p.6-7).

You claim that BORD = BARD = BEARD, so you can translate KLIVADON with "smeren" (to smear, probably through "kleven"; to stick).

Again, you lost control over your fantasy, as I will demonstrate.

BORD is used several times and always in the meaning of "board" (of a ship; "boord" in Dutch):

[orig.p.55 line 4; O/S p.76-77]
KÁT ... JOMPADE WR BORD
Kát ... jumped over board

[orig.p.85 line 6; O/S p.116-117]
WERP THAT WIF VR SKIPPES BORD
throw that woman over ship's board

[orig.p.86 line 20; O/S p.118-119]
HIF HINI VR BORD INTO HAT WÀLLANDE HEF
lifted him over board into the surging billows

[orig.p.110 line 27; O/S p.150-151]
ET FRYA.S.DÉI HONGON THA SKILDA OMMA THA BORDA TO
at Frya's day the shields hung around the boards

[orig.p.207 line 24; O/S p.248-249]
THA LÉDLIKSTA ÀND SWARTSTE WRDON AN BORD HALDEN
the ugliest and blackest were kept on board

[orig.p.208 line 1; O/S p.250-251]
THÉRVMBE WÀRH ALLES OVIR BORD JOMPTH
therefore all was thrown over board

So... who has been misinterpreting here?

### Posted 01 September 2011 - 09:51 AM

Knul, on 31 August 2011 - 07:08 PM, said:
What bothers me most, is, that both the text of Ottema and his translation are full of mistakes, misinterpretations and inconsequent spelling (u-v, y-i, ae-a).

Example 2

0042 Tha bâsa ånd hjara storsta svnum krupton by tha lodderiga finna mangêrtum; ånd hjara åjne toghatera thrvch thåt vvle fârbild fon‑a wêi brocht, lêton hjara selva bigorda thrvch tha skênesta finna knâpa, hjara vvle aldrum to spot.
Ottema: De meesters en hunne kloekste zoonen kropen bij de wulpsche meisjes der Finnen; en hunne eigene dochteren, door het slechte voorbeeld van den weg gebracht, lieten zich door de schoonste knapen der Finnen begorden, ten spot van hare verdorvene ouders.
Sandbach: "The principal men and their cleverest sons made up to the wanton daughters of the Finnar; and their own daughters, led astray by this bad example, allowed themselves to be beguiled by the handsome young Finnar in derision of their depraved fathers.
...
However, the verb begorden means make pregnant. That is why people got 'vrbastered'.

It is clear, that Ds. Halbertsma got the word from the Statenbijbel. In his church nobody understood the word, neither Ottema.

Your second example of Ottema's supposed mistakes is from page 2 (line 26) of the original (Ottema p.6-7).

Ottema translated "BIGORDA" with "begorden", an old fashioned Dutch word that can still be found in Van Dale's famous Dutch dictionary.
Jensma (2006) translated the word correctly with the more modern "bezwangeren" (to impregnate).

Why would Ottema not have known what the word means?

How on Earth is it "clear, that Ds. Halbertsma got the word from the Statenbijbel"?

I don't know if one of the (19th century) meanings of "beguiled" is "impregnated".
If it is not, it is a mistake by Sandbach, not by Ottema.

### Posted 01 September 2011 - 10:04 AM

Knul, on 31 August 2011 - 07:08 PM, said:
What bothers me most, is, that both the text of Ottema and his translation are full of mistakes, misinterpretations and inconsequent spelling (u-v, y-i, ae-a).

Example 3

You know, that the old genetive in the OLB is -his (tat his, tathis), shortened to -s (Adela-his > Adela-s, moeder-s wil is wet) and that this old genetive was replaced in the 15th-16th century by prepositions (fon-van). If you look at the OLB text you find only few cases of the old genetive (nachtis - 's nachts) and a overwhelming majority with the preposition fon, indicating that the OLB is a modern text.

No, I don't know if the "old genetive" (...-his or ...'s) was replaced in the 15th-16th century by prepositions (fon-van).

In fact, I don't believe that's true.

How do you know?

Both constructions are still used in Dutch and I don't think there's any reason to believe this has not been so over 2000 years ago.

### Posted 01 September 2011 - 10:38 AM

In the Netherlands there are still several rural dialects, and only few of them have a (recent) written tradition.

At school, we learn to speak and write the national language "Common Civilised Dutch" (Algemeen Beschaafd Nederlands or ABN).

The oldest documents in what is called (old-) Dutch, were written by monks or other authority-related people, who would have learned to read and write in Latin.

That does not mean there can not have been a much older writing tradition and it is far from sure that the oldest known attempts to write down the spoken language were accurate.

Modern Dutch or ABN will have been influenced by the various languages of the occupying forces or world-powers.

These were, roughly, from recent to old-times:

English
German
French
Spanish
German/ French
Roman (Italian/ Latin)

Yet, the Dutch language is unique and still has similarities to the languages of the more Northern (Scandinavian) countries.

This means that our original language must have been really old and deeply rooted in our folk-culture.

It is not hard to imagine that we will have had a written tradition, that was thoroughly destroyed for political reasons by the various occupying forces.

(Didn't Roman writers refer to a script that was used by the Gauls of which also no known examples exist?)

That one (and maybe more) documents did survive (in copy from whatever age) may be a miracle and unbelievable to some, but it is not impossible.

### Posted 01 September 2011 - 05:06 PM

Knul,

On your website (tab "onderzoek"), you give a table with the month names that occur in the OLB, compared to old-English month names.
You consider this to be main proof that Halbertsma created (part of) the OLB.

I would like to point out the mistakes you made in this table.

Your table:

month......oldenglish.......OLB
-----------------------------------
january....wulfamonath......wolfamonath
february...solmonath........sellamonath
march......hrethmonath......herdemonath
april......eastermonath
may........thrimilce........minnemonath
june.......seremonath
july.......maedmonath
august.....weodmonath.......arnemonath?
september..haeerfestmonath
october....winmonath........winnemonath, frivnskipmonath
november...windmonath
december...aerra geola

The following months are correct:

ARNEMONATH = AREN- = harvest month = august
SELLAMONATH = february
MINNEMONATH = may

According to the "Middelnederlandsch Woordenboek", WOLFMAENT can refer to November, December or January, (source)
and according to the "Woordenboek der Nederlandse Taal", HARDMAAND (or Hardemaand, Herdmaand) can refer to November, December, January or February.
But January is most common. (source)

From the context in the OLB, it makes more sense that HERDEMONATH refers to January (as Jensma said), and therefore that WOLFAMONATH refers to December (as Jensma said).

Also, in the OLB it is abundantly clear that MINNEMONATH = WINNEMONATH = FRJUNDSKIPMONATH (= may).

This means you misplaced FOUR monthnames in your table.

### Posted 01 September 2011 - 08:13 PM

Abramelin, on 01 September 2011 - 05:51 PM, said:
... vrwildarda Britne...
... savage Britons...

"Britons" is a poor translation.
"BRITNE" literally means something like "outcasts"; ones that are brought away
(Dutch: "(weg-) gebrachtenen").

"Savage" is also a poor translation;
my dictionary has: neglected, gone wild, unkempt, dishevelled, distraught.
(Dutch: "verwilderd")

### Posted 01 September 2011 - 05:31 PM

Abramelin, on 01 September 2011 - 04:20 PM, said:
I think I may have found the location of another tribe mentioned in the OLB.

So... what's the new location?

"KÁD" is used several times in the OLB, and as far as I can see from the context it just means "quay" or "coast".


###Posted 02 September 2011 - 08:55 AM

Knul, on 02 September 2011 - 12:34 AM, said:
My point is, that the OLB contains names of months derived from Old-English names instead of the Old-Dutch names.

They are not derived from old-english.

To be more clear, here's the mistakes in your table:

month......oldenglish.......OLB
-----------------------------------
january....wulfamonath......wolfamonath
february...solmonath........sellamonath
march......hrethmonath......herdemonath
may........thrimilce........minnemonath
august.....weodmonath.......arnemonath?
october....winmonath........winnemonath, frivnskipmonath

How are MINNE MONATH and ARNE MONATH derived from old-english?

### Posted 02 September 2011 - 09:08 AM

Otharus, on 01 September 2011 - 05:06 PM, said:
Also, in the OLB it is abundantly clear that MINNEMONATH = WINNEMONATH = FRJUNSKIPMONATH (= may).

OLB, p.116, line 5:
INNER WINNA JEFTHA MINNA MÔNATH GVNG AIDER THURVAR WITHER HÉM FÁRA.

OLB, p.93, line 19:
FIFTIAN MONATHA NÉI THÉRE LERSTE ACHT WÉR-ET FRJUNSKIP JEFTHA WINNE MÔNATH


### Posted 02 September 2011 - 09:59 AM

Otharus, on 01 September 2011 - 05:06 PM, said:
Your table:

month......oldenglish
---------------------
october....winmonath
november...windmonath

It is unlikely that winmonath and windmonath were used together for different months, as that would be very confusing.

### Posted 02 September 2011 - 04:25 PM

The Puzzler, on 02 September 2011 - 03:08 PM, said:
I'm not sure why KAD in OLB clearly means quay or coast

I will help you...

p.51
SKÉNLAND WAS SUNNICH BIFOLKATH, ÀND ANDA ÀFTER-KÁD THÀT SUNNICHSTE FON AL
p.57
ALSA ALINGA THÉRE KÁD FORTH FARANDE KÉMON HJA TO THÉRE FOLKPLANTING KÁDIK
p.58
NÉF TÜNIS FOR ALLINGGEN THÉRE KÁD AL THRVCH THJU PORTE THÉRE MIDDELSÉ
p.58
THA TO THA LESTA KÉMON HJA AN TO PHONISIVS KÁD
p.58
NÉI BI THÉRE KÁD FVNDON HJA EN ÉLAND MITH TWAM DIAPA SLINKA

... etcetera

### Posted 02 September 2011 - 04:30 PM

Abramelin, on 02 September 2011 - 01:42 PM, said:
Do you have a source for that translation of 'Britne'?

My source is the OLB itself:

p.50
VSA WÉIBRITNE VRDON VRDELGEN JEFTA HJA WRDON HJARA HARLINGA
p.157
THA TWISLÁNDAR THÀT SIND BANNANE ÀND WÉI BRITNE FRYASBERN
p.164
BI WESTA PANG.AB THÉR SIND THA ÍRA JEFTHA WRANGA. THA GEDROSTNE JEFTHA BRITNE. AND THA ORJETTEN JEFTHA VRJETNE
p.198
VR-A ÉNE HELTE SEND HJA ÚT KÀLTANAFOLGAR, VR-ET ÔRA DÉL ÚT BRITNE ÀND BANNANE
... etcetera

### Posted 02 September 2011 - 04:36 PM

Abramelin, on 02 September 2011 - 02:11 PM, said:
My problem is that I think it is very unlikely that people living in coastal areas would not go out onto the sea.

For that one needs good ships, made of strong wood (oak!), and sails (hemp?).
And some tribes were better at that than others.
The 'Juttar' also remained (mostly?) ashore.
They can still live from fish, agriculture and trade.

Quote
Originally Katham was an independent town. The place name indicates a piece of land outside a dike, Ham, and belonging to someone called Kat or Katte. But Kat may also refer to a quay located along the Zuiderzee, or a reference to the nearby Katwoude.

Nice find, I didn't know that place.

### Posted 02 September 2011 - 07:31 PM

Abramelin, on 02 September 2011 - 04:43 PM, said:
But how would you translate this part:

A Brittannja wêron ...
In Britain there were ...

Or this:

An-t north-ende fon Britanja ...
In the north part of Britain ...

It appears the "Britne" as name does indeed point to the Britons...

OLB p.48, line 8:

BRITTANIA THAT WAS THAT LAND THÉRA BANNALINGA.
THÉR MITH HULPE HJARAR BURCHFAM WÉI BRITH WÉRON
VMBE HIRA LIF TO BIHALDANA

Brittania that was the land of the exiles,
that were brought away with help of their Burchfam,
to save their life

So (using common sense) first there was the word:
(WÉI) BRIT(H) = brought (away)

then the people:
BRITNE = outcasts, exiles

and then the land that was named because of these people:
BRITTANIA (various spellings) = Britain

(which does not mean that all BRITNE lived only in BRITTANIA)

... and of course there is Bretagne in France (called "Brittany" in English).

### Posted 02 September 2011 - 08:16 PM

Abramelin, on 02 September 2011 - 07:54 PM, said:
I do not disagree with the literal meaning of 'britne' (outcasts, exiles), but in the pieces of texts I quoted from the OLB it is clear for me that Britons are meant.

Yes, OLB is full of ambiguities, words that can be interpreted and translated in different ways.

That's actually one of the things I love about it.

If I would have to translate it, I would use many footnotes.

(That's why I prefer to read it in the original language...)


### Posted 03 September 2011 - 07:03 PM

Abramelin, on 03 September 2011 - 05:58 PM, said:
And "Hemar" is Hem + Ar, and -ar stands for multiplicity. The modern Germans still use a similar ending when there is a multiple: Man > Männer = man > men.

In Swedish, -ar is (also) still used for plural:

anteckningar - notes (dutch: aantekeningen)
bilar - cars (automoBILes)
slavar - slaves (dutch: slaven)

### The following is an example of something getting lost in the English translation...

[OLB p.110 line 31; O+S p.153]
ABEFTA THÉRE FLÍT WAS EN GRÀFT GRÀVEN.
TO HLÁPANDE DÁNA ALINGEN THÉRE BURCH FOR.ÁNA
ÀND FORTH MITH EN ÉGA MVDA IN SÉ.
TO FÁRA THERE FLÁTE WÉRE THIT THA UTGVNG
ÀND ET FLÍ THA INGVNG.
A BÉDE SÍDA THÉRE GRÀFT SEND SKÉNE HUSA
MITH HEL BLIKANDA FARWA MÁLAD.
THA GÁRDNE SEND MITH ALTID GRÉNE HÁGVM OMTUNAD.
IK HÀV THÉR WIVA SIAN THÉR FILTNE TOHNEKNA DROGON
AS.T SKRIF.FILT WÉRE.
LIK TO STAVEREN WÉRON THA MÀNGÉRTNE
MITH GOLDEN KRONUM VPPIR HOLUM
ÀND MITH HRINGUM OM ÀRMA ÀND FÉT SJARAD.

[Ottema]
Van uit die vliet was eene gracht gegraven
van daar voortloopende langs de burgt Forana
en voorts met eene enge mond in zee.
Voor de vloot was dit de uitgang
en het Fly de ingang.
Aan beide zijden der gracht zijn schoone huizen
met helder blinkende verwen geschilderd.
De tuinen zijn met altijd groene hagen omheind [=omtuind].
Ik heb daar vrouwen gezien die viltene tunikas droegen,
als of het schrijffilt was.
Even als te Staveren waren de meisjes
met gouden kroonen op hare hoofden
en met ringen om de armen en voeten gesierd.

[Sandbach]
From the river a canal was dug
going past the citadel Forana (Vroonen),
with a narrow outlet to the sea.
This was the egress of the fleet;
the Fly was the ingress.
On both sides of the river are fine houses built,
painted in bright colours.
The gardens are all surrounded by green hedges.
I saw there women wearing felt tunics,
as if it were writing felt.
Just as at Staveren, the girls wore
golden crowns on their heads,
and rings on their arms and ankles.

[OLB p.210 line 16; O+S p.253]
THAWILA THÀT.ET ALLES BÉRADE
HLIPON THA MÁGJARA JETA DRÍSTER AS TO FÁRA
OVIR VSA BÚRA RA LANDA HINNA.
BY EGMVDA HWÉR TO FÁRA THÉRE BURCH FOR.ÁNA STÁN HÉDE
LÉTON HJA ÉNE CHERKA BVWA
JETA GRÁTER ÀND RIKAR AS ASKAR TO STÁVEREN DÉN HÉDE.

[Ottema]
Terwijl dit alles gebeurde,
liepen de Magyaren nog stoutmoediger [=driester] [als tevoren]
over de landen onzer naburen heen.
Bij Egmuda, waar te voren de burgt Forana gestaan had,
lieten zij eene kerk bouwen
nog grooter en rijker als Askar te Staveren gedaan had.

[Sandbach]
While all this was going on,
the Magyars went about audaciously
over the lands of our neighbours.
Near Egmuda, where formerly the citadel Forana had stood,
they built a church
larger and richer than that which Askar had built at Staveren.

### Posted September 4, 06:33 AM

Abramelin, on 03 September 2011 - 10:55 PM, said:
But it was Grimm, Halbertsma's best friend, who popularized Krodo.
Think about that one, please.
Before Grimm, no one even knew about "Krodo".
Yeah, his ages old sources did, but not anyone from his time.

What is your source for Grimm being Halbertsma's "best friend"?
And how do you know that before Grimm "no one knew about Krodo"?

Anyway, what are you suggesting? That Halbertsma wrote the OLB?
There is too many reasons why he CANNOT have done it.

Read some of his publications.
He had an extremely boring style and was not THAT intelligent.

He was a Frisian nationalist.
Why would he add so many so-called Hollandisms (words that are more like Dutch than as Frisian).
Why would he be negative about Frisian supposed founding father Friso?

### Posted September 4, 08:14 PM

Abramelin, on 04 September 2011 - 12:55 PM, said:
I have posted about the many letters Grimm and Halbertsma sent to eachother. They also were both pioneers of modern linguistics, and both very interested in old Germanic/Nordic languages and myths.

So they corresponded and shared interests. That does not make them "best friends".

Quote
And I have said many times now that Halbertsma could have created the OLB, but not to publish it as something 'real', but instead just for himself as some kind of exercise in Old Frisian-ish. Then later someone else sort of 'stole' his text, and things went roling.

And this 'someone else' also 'sort of' inserted the Over de Linden/ Oera Linda family into this 'exercise'?
How do you explain all witness reports about the Over de Linden family owning an ancient text from their family in 'old-Frisian' and 'strange script'?

If the OLB was created in the 19th century, its maker must have been an extreme genius with an incredible sense of humor.
Halbertsma does not even come close to qualifying for this job. Did he ever make a joke in his work? I challenge you and Knul to give one example.

Quote
I know he was a Frisian nationalist, and I have said many times he was very fanatic in bringing Frisian history and language back from the anonimity it had in Europe.

That's why he couldn't have done it: the OLB was too much in conflict with the 19th century paradigm of old-Frisian language and history. That's why it was agressively rejected. If Halbertsma made something like that, it would have been a (Frisian elite) crowd pleaser. OLB was the opposite; it was taken as an offense.

Quote
He also says that he wants to force the linguists to acknowledge the fact that Frisian is one of the oldest branches of Germanic, and that it is the most far spread out language all over the world; actually he means the English language which he considers a direct offshoot of Frisian.

Like I said before, the 'Hollandisms' in the OLB were (and are) a horror to Frisian nationalists.
I'm sure there are many examples of words in the OLB that are more like Dutch than like Frisian (as some words are more like the Scandinavian languages etc.). Halbertsma would NEVER have done that.

Quote
But I don't understand why Halbertsma would be negative about Friso; was he?

You misunderstood; Halbertsma, being a Frisian nationalist, would NOT be negative about Friso, but the OLB is.
Another reason why Halbertsma himself would not have liked the OLB.