Posted 02 March 2012 - 06:44 PM
"For Friso's inheritance ~ 175 years Frisian Society"
by Goffe Jensma, published in
"Het Fries Genootschap 1827-2002" (2002).
(translation, for original see attached scan; p.61-62)
The Oera Linda-book, that surfaced in 1867 as one of the many manuscripts that were discussed in the meetings of the Fries Genootschap (Frisian Society), for many years in bursts dominated the discussions within the Frisian Society, as well as outside. The manuscript seemed to agree with all Frisian fantasies and exaggerated them. The Frisians did not descend from Friso, who would have come from India to Friesland, they were much older: Friso was a descendant from a colony of Frisians that had already moved from Friesland to India in the fifteenth century BCE, led by the daughter of Great Pier [(c.1480 – 1520 CE)], would you believe. The book did make use of the new methods to approach ancient history; it referred to theories about the qualities of races, as explained by Quatrefages, and it suggested that the history of the European white race equalled that of the Free Frisians.
The reputation of the Frisian Society suffered a lot from this history, not so much because of the book itself, but mostly because a prominent board member of the Society, Jan Gerhardus Ottema believed in it, and published it (independently from the Society) in 1871.
François Haverschmidt - vicar ànd member of the Society - and his friend Eelco Verwijs - working member of the Society -, who created and brought it into the world respectively, demonstrated in other works by their hands, that they rejected the fantastic historiography. By choosing the form of a mystification, this remained implicit, and the discussion did not come to an end, neither about the OLB, nor about the Frisian myth. It would take another generation before the Society would start discussing the myth not only as a form of literature, but also scientifically.
This was 2 years BEFORE Jensma published his THEORY about Haverschmidt and Verwijs.
To translate GÉRT.PIRE.HIS TOGHATER with
Geertje, the daughter of Great Pier is misleading.
In this forum we concluded that it makes no sense at all.
It is an interpretation based on Jensma's assumption that OL is meant to be a joke, but he presents it as neutral fact.
When Jensma wrote this, he was 'doctorandus' (master of arts) in history and philosophy.
Even in my first year at university (I am a master of science), I would not have gotten away with presenting my theories as if they are facts.
The board members of the Frisan Society, who were about to celebrate their 175th jubilee must have wanted him (and paid him) to finally silence the OLB debate, to leave no doubt about it being fake and mystery solved.
I have read and heard enough by now to understand that the OLB is the worst pain in their arses. Thinking about the book means having sleepless nights and headaches... or worse.
And I know too well (also from personal experiece) that scientists of every generation are paid to 'prove' whatever their patrons want them to 'scientifically' prove.
### Posted 02 March 2012 - 09:16 PM
Otharus, on 02 March 2012 - 06:44 PM, said:
Jensma: "[...] Jan Gerhardus Ottema believed in it, and published it (...) in 1871."
Ottema published the first OLB-transcription & -translation in 1872!
### Posted 03 March 2012 - 11:02 AM
Otharus, on 06 February 2012 - 10:51 AM, said:
"Over den loop der Rivieren door het land der Friezen en Batavieren in het Romeinsche Tijdperk" by Dr. J.G. Ottema in De Vrije Fries 4 (1846) p.125.
Not published online before (as far as I know):
Jan Ottema´s pre-OLB Land der Friezen (1851)
(reconstruction of ca. year zero)
p. 49 of "Het Fries Genootschap 1827-2002" (2002)
### Posted 03 March 2012 - 12:00 PM
Even professional liars leave traces that make it possible - for people who read between the lines - to reconstruct some truth.
Here is another reveiling fragment of
"Om de erfenis van Friso ~ 175 jaar Fries Genootschap" by Goffe Jensma, published in "Het Fries Genootschap 1827-2002" (2002), from chapter 3: "Voorgeschiedenis, 1750-1827"
(translation, for original see attached scan; p.26)
The Frisian Society (Fries Genootschap) might not have been founded, if king Willem I [(1772–1843)] would not have convoked all 'fatherlandic historians and linguists' by Royal Order of 23 December 1826, to submit proposals for the concoction of a 'General Netherlandic History'.
Until then an enterprise like that had not been undertaken, despite of 'the great importance of such a history, that aims at cultivating love for the fatherland, stimulating civic virtue and maintaining the national character'.
At this occasion he had also promised money for plausible proposals, even if they would not be awarded.
Binkes [(founding secretary)] in his report referred to this Royal Order, which proves that the orientation of the Frisian Society at its own Frisian history, primarily has to be seen as a contribution to Netherlandic nation building.
The members of the Frisian Society considered the scientific Frisian historiography as part of a more comprehensive Netherlandic historiography, just like they saw Friesland as an integral part of the 'Kingdom of the Netherlands'.
### Posted 06 March 2012 - 05:28 PM
Two examples of far-fetched (and needlessly confusing) spelling in new-Frisian (ny-Frysk)
example 1
WIND - old-frisian (Richthofen dictionary) and OLB-language
wind - dutch, english, german
vind - danish, swedish, norwegian
vindur - icelandic
vent - french
vento - italian, portuguese
viento - italian
ventus - latin
wyn - new-frisian (note: same spelling as for wine!)
----- compare:
WIN - old-frisian (Richthofen dictionary) and OLB-language
wine - english
wein - german
wijn - dutch
vin - danish, swedish, norwegian, french
vín - icelandic
vino - italian, spanish
vinho - portuguese
vinum - latin
wyn - new-frisian (same spelling as for wind)
----------
example 2
taxis - english, german, french, spanish
taxi - italian
táxis - portuguese
taxi's - dutch
taxier - danish
taxibilar - swedish
taksys - new-frisian (pronounced the same as in dutch)
### Posted 06 March 2012 - 10:56 PM
Otharus, on 06 March 2012 - 05:28 PM, said:
Example of far-fetched (and needlessly confusing) spelling in new-Frisian (ny-Frysk)
WIND - old-frisian (Richthofen dictionary) and OLB-language
wind - dutch, english, german
wyn - new-frisian (same spelling as for wine)
vind - danish, swedish, norwegian
vindur - icelandic
vent - french
vento - italian, portuguese
viento - italian
ventus - latin
In the quoted example above, Dutch, English and German use exactly the same spelling for "wind" as Old-Frisian, and the Scandinavian languages have almost the same spelling; the only difference is that they use V where we have W.
Affected (artificial) spell-Frisian has changed the I into a Y and has left out the D or T at the end.
Now I will give another, even more obvious example of how modern Frisian spelling (since the late 19th century) is designed to be different.
LAND - old-frisian and OLB-language
land - english, dutch, german, danish, swedish, norwegian, icelandic
lân - new-frisian
- - -
pays - french
país - spanish, portuguese
paese - italian
There are a few fragments in the OLB about the bastardisation of language.
History and language are political tools to unite or seperate peoples.
The silent readers of this thread who know more about the OLB and Frisian cultural history, will know exactly what I mean.
They may also start to understand why professor doctor Jensma got zero new students to study Frisian language and literature with him last year.
Because one of the most important reasons to reject the OLB as authentic was, that the language would be too modern, it is most relevant to think about the evolution of language and spelling.
### Posted 08 March 2012 - 08:39 AM
Knul, on 07 March 2012 - 12:48 PM, said:
... the author used the characteristics of Oldfrisian grammar for modern Dutch words and expressions.
What "modern words and expressions"? You don't know how "modern" they are.
Oral language is much older than our accepted written records of it.
### Posted 09 March 2012 - 09:23 AM
Knul, on 09 March 2012 - 12:53 AM, said:
Who knows the meaning of ULK ?
Check any Oldfrisian dictionary.
VLKE, ULKE = wolk (dutch), wolke (german), cloud (english)
And of course it does make sense; the priests were creating a supernatural myth about her.
### Posted 11 March 2012 - 07:46 AM
Van Gorp, on 11 March 2012 - 12:43 AM, said:
Serious, I don't have much to do with Hebrew/Phoenicians, so I don't know much about it/them.
But I know not every single people/language on earth is a deravation of them.
I admit, in that sense I'm a heretic and non-believer.
As long as official etymology can't give a good explanation of the meaning and origin of 'Rome' i don't bother too much with all their other fairy tales.
### Posted 12 March 2012 - 11:57 AM
Before I continue with other things, I will post some translated fragments from "Het Geheim van het Oera-Linda-Boek" (the secret of the OLB) by Murk de Jong (1927).
Page 34, a quote from F. Binkes in "De Vrije Fries" (the free Frisian) #1 (1839):
"There are two kinds of people, that are most harmful for the practice of history: those who believe everything and those who believe nothing. The first present us anything they find, without sifting, ripe and green, plausible and improbable; but the second reject anything that at their own first sight seems to have no historical certainty. They cut all this out with a so-called skeptical trimming knife, that is often very blunt, or used very awkwardly by them."
To this M. de Jong adds the following comment:
The author [Binkes] does not hesitate to declare, that the unbelievers have harmed old Frisian history infinitely more than the naive believers.
On the same page dr. de Jong gives a similar quote from J.H. Halbertsma in "De Vrije Fries" #11 (1868):
"Frisian history to her great misfortune has mostly fallen in the hands of ultras, who either rigorously rejected the old sagas as worthless fiction, or accepted them as historical truth".
### Posted 12 March 2012 - 12:45 PM
Another fragment from "Het Geheim van het Oera-Linda-Boek" (the secret of the OLB) by Murk de Jong (1927).
Page 74:
The only megalithic tomb ['hunebed'] of Friesland, that - as a memory of the Stone Age - would be much older than Adela, on the Van Swinderen estate in Rijs (Gaasterland), was destroyed immediately after its discovery in 1849, even before the archaeologist Dr. Jansen had heard about it.
And (paraphrased):
Dr. J.H. Halbertsma explained the phenomenon, that in Friesland so little antiquities are found:
The glory-addiction, that results in erecting monuments for oneself and others, was unknown to the sober and solid nature of the Frisians, as they chose to BE great, rather than APPEAR great.
### Posted 13 March 2012 - 02:39 PM
The language of the OLB is either an ancestor of English, Dutch, German and Swedish,
or an inconceivably good reconstruction of it.
The following is just a reading (ex)sample to demonstrate this.
Letter of copyist Hidde Oera Linda to his son Okke (first unnumbered page of OLB):
OKKE MIN1 SVN2.
THISSA3 BOKA4 MOT5 I MITH6 LIF7 ÀND8 SÉLE9 WÁRJA10.
SE VMBIFATTATH THJU SKÉDNISSE FON VS ÉLE FOLK11
ÁK FON VSA ÉTHLUM.
VRLÉDEN JÉR12 HÀB IK13 THAM UT14.ER FLOD15 HRED
TOLIK MITH THI ÀND THINRA MODER16.
THA HJA WÉRON WET WRDEN.
THÉRTHRVCH GVNGON HJA ÀFTERNEI VRDARVA.
VMBE HJA NAVT TO VRLYSA
HÀB IK RA VP WRLANDISK PAMPÍER17 VVRSKRÉVEN.
SAHWERSA THV SE ERVE.
MOT THU SE ÁK WRSKRÍVA.
THIN BÀRN ALSA TILTHJU HJA NIMMERTHE WÉI NAVT NE KVMA.
SKRÉVVEN TO LJUWERT.
NÉI ÁTLAND SVNKEN IS.
THÀT THRJA18 THÚSOND19.FJVWER20 HVNDRED21 ÀND NJUGON22 ÀND FJVWERTIGOSTE JÉR.
THÀT IS NEI KERSTEN RÉKNONG
THAT TVELF23.HVNDRED.SEX24 ÀND FIFTIGOSTE JÉR. ~
HIDDE TOBINOMATH25 OERA LINDA. ~
WÁK26. ~
e = english
d = dutch
g = german
s = swedish
1 MIN - e My/ Mine, d Mijn, g Mein, s Min
2 SVN - e Son, d Zoon, g Sohn, s Son
3 THISSA - e These, d Deze, g Diese, s Detta
4 plural of BOK - e Book, d Boek, f , g Buch, s Bok
5 MOT - e Must, d Moet, g Muss, s Måst
6 MITH - e With, d Met, g Mit, s Med
7 LIF - e Life, d Lijf/ Leven, g Leib/ Leben, s Liv
8 ÀND - e And, d En, g Und, s Och
9 SÉLE - e Soul, d Ziel, g Seele, s Själ
10 WÁRJA - e Beware, d Bewaren, g Bewahren, s Bevara
11 FOLK - e Folk, d Volk, g Volk, s Folk
12 JÉR - e Year, d Jaar, g Jahr, s År
13 IK - e I, d Ik, g Ich, s Jag
14 UT - e Out, d Uit, g Aus, s Ut
15 FLOD - e Flood, d Vloed, g Flut, s Flod
16 MODER - e Mother, d Moeder, g Mutter, s Mor
17 PAMPÍER - e Paper, d Papier, g Papier, s Papper
18 THRJA - e Three, d Drie, g Drei, s Tre
19 THÚSOND - e Thousand, d Duizend, g Tausend, s Tusen
20 FJVWER - e Four, d Vier, g Vier, s Fyra
21 HVNDRED - e Hundred, d Honderd, g Hundert, s Hundra
22 NJUGON - e Nine, d Negen, g Neun, s Nio
23 TVELF - e Twelve, d Twaalf, g Zwölf, s Tolv
24 SEX - e Six, d Zes, g Sechs, s Sex
25 NOMA - e Name, d Naam, g Nahme, s Namn
26 WÁK - e Wake/ Watch, d Waak/ Wacht, g Wache, s Vak
### Posted 13 March 2012 - 05:22 PM
Some agreements and differences between OLB and known Frisian myths, sagas or legends.
(based on p.145-150 of "Het Geheim van het Oera-Linda-Boek" by M. de Jong, 1927)
1. Myth: Friso arrived in 313 BC (Scarlensis: 299 BC), marking the start of Frisian history.
OLB: [p.119] He arrived in 303 BC, ca. 1900 years after oldest described historical event (big flood).
2. Myth: Friso arrived in a desolate, uninhabited land.
OLB: He returned in a land that had suffered much of a flood, but still had inhabitants and cities, as well as a high culture.
3. Myth: Friso was a prince from India.
OLB: [p.74] Friso was a descendant from a Fryan colony in Athens that had resettled in India ca. 1550 BC.
4. Myth: Friso had two brothers, Saxo and Bruno.
OLB: Friso had two brothers-in-law, Hetto and Bruno. The 'Saxmen' were much older than Friso.
5. Myth: Bruno is founder of Brunswijk.
OLB: [p.151] Bruno goes to 'Mannagarda-wrda', Munster according to Ottema (Medieval name: 'Minnegarte-wrta').
6. Myth: Hetto is a son of Friso.
OLB: [p.150] Hetto (meaning: the hot one) is a brother-in-law and goes to 'Kattaburch' (Kassel) in the Saxmarks, which suggests an etymology for 'Hessen'.
7. Myth: Friso had served in the army of Alexander the Great.
OLB: [p.125] He also served under Demetrius (son of Antigonus), who kidnapped his son and daughter. Friso remarried in Stavia.
8. Myth: Friso was a great king and primal father of the Frisians.
OLB: [p.145] He was kind of an usurper, hostile towards the ancient polity of matriarchs and burgladies. He tried to win followers with gold and did not allow that a new Mother was chosen [p.151-153]. He tried to connect with one of the oldest and noblest clans, the Oera-Lindas or Adelinga, by having his youngest daughter Konrnhélja marry Háchgána, son of Wiljo and Fréthorik, brother of Koneréd Oera Linda [p.146]. To please the Oera Lindas he also named his son (from his new wife Swéthirte) 'Adel'. Friso did NOT become king [p.154].
9. Myth: Friso's father was named 'Adel', king of 'Phresia' or 'Pharrosia' (at Ganges river), and some of the later kings after Friso (his descendants) were named 'Adel'. One of his granddaughters was named 'Adela'.
OLB: Inspired by the 'book of Adelinga', Friso named his son 'Adel' (see 8.).
10. Myth: Adel (son of Friso) married Swob, daughter of the Sueban king.
OLB: [p.155] Adel (son of Friso) married Jfkja (nicknamed Svôbene) from Svôbaland.
11. Myth: Another son of Friso was named 'Vitho' or 'Jotho'. He married the daughter of the Cimbrian king and became principal of Jutland (suggesting that Jutland was named after him). In Frisian myth, the Cimbrian king and his daughter had different names than in OLB.
OLB: [p.150] In OLB he is named just 'Witto' (the white). He saved 'Sjuchtherte', daughter of 'Wilhim' (principal of the Juttar) from the Sélanders, became her husband and the successor of her father.
12. Myth: Friso had one wife only, named Hilla, from Asian descent. They had seven sons and one daughter, being the youngest. The daughter was named 'Vimoda' ('weemoed' means melancholy), because her mother had died at giving birth.
OLB: Friso remarried with the Fryan 'Swéthirte', daughter of 'Wilfréthe' (gréva of Staveren). They had two sons and two daughters. The oldest daughter was named 'Wémod'; she married 'Kavch', son of 'Wichhirte', king of the Gértmànna [p.146]. Her name suggests the origin of the area Wimodia or Vigmodia in lower-Elbe. The name Kauch suggests an origin for the name of the Kauchen or Chauken tribe in East-Friesland.
13. Myth: The successors of Friso's son Adel were 'Ubbo' (namegiver of the Ubii), and 'Asinga Ascon', who was in his 71st reigning year in the year zero.
OLB: The four successors of Friso were all named 'Adel'; the fourth was nicknamed 'Black Adel' or 'Asega Askar' (which in the OLB language means something like claimant of the law) [p.195].
###Posted 15 March 2012 - 09:16 AM
Otharus, on 14 October 2010 - 04:49 PM, said:
Goffe Th. Jensma wrote a thesis about the OLB and is generally accepted to be the 'official authority' on the subject. He is now professor of Frisian language and literature at the University of Groningen.
http://www.rug.nl/staff/g.t.jensma
At a public discussion on the occasion of his promotion, none of the speakers agreed with his conclusion that François Haverschmidt must have been the genius behind OLB. (see below)
Source: Leeuwarder Courant, friday 10 december 2004
Translation of relevant fragment:
"Although the speakers without exception praised Jensma's work, he had not been able to convince any of them of his truth that François Haverschmidt is the main author of the OLB."
Original fragment in Dutch:
"Hoewel de sprekers zonder uitzondering vol lof waren over het werk van Jensma, had hij niemand kunnen overtuigen van zijn waarheid dat François Haverschmidt de belangrijkste auteur van het Oera Linda-boek is."
The panel members that unanimously disagreed with Jensma's conclusion, in the debate held at 6 december 2004 (Leeuwarden), were:
- dr. Eric Cossee, professor Dutch church history at Groningen University
- dr. Marita Mathijsen, professor Dutch linguistics and literature (specialised in 19th century) at Amsterdam University
- dr. Henk D. Meijering, emeritus professor Oldfrisian and Oldsaxon at the Free University (Amsterdam)
Source: "Jûn oer de dissertaasje fan Goffe Jensma" ('evening about Jensma's dissertation') in "Fryslân" 2004 #3, p.12.
###Posted 15 March 2012 - 10:32 AM
The following is copied from:
"Negen Eeuwen Friesland-Holland ~ geschiedenis van een haat-liefde verhouding"
('nine centuries Friesland-Holland ~ history of a hate-love affair')
by Breuker & Janse (editors), published 1997 by the Fryske Akademy.
This post (in parts) is for those who can read Dutch.
I intend to translate the most relevant fragments later.
"Het ontstaan van het Fries en het Hollands"
('the emergence of the Frisian and the Dutch language')
by Rolf H. Bremmer jr.
==>> see on U.M.-forum
### Posted 15 March 2012 - 07:36 PM
Abramelin, on 15 March 2012 - 07:18 PM, said:
Btw, not the spoil the fun, but you have been posting many scans from Rolf Bremmer's Dutch article..... and I think I recognize here and there parts I have read online... but in English. I know I have posted links to online English books by his hand. You might want to check these online books first, and before you start translating.
OK thanks, I hadn't started translating yet.
Have a good read of the last part, "Besluit".
The map about "twisken" (fig.4) is very interesting too.
### Posted 17 March 2012 - 01:13 PM
Chapter 1 of "Hir is eskriven ~ lezen en schrijven in de Friese landen rond 1300" ('reading and writing in the Frisian lands ca. 1300'), by Rolf H. Bremmer jr. (Fryske Akademy, 2004).
Title: "Zoveel geschreven, zo weinig gebleven" ('so much written, so little saved')
(sorry no translation yet)
==>> see on U.M.-forum
### Posted 22 March 2012 - 02:09 PM
Three maps from "Frieslands Oudheid" by H. Halbertsma (2000)
1) page 16 ~ Frisia and surrounding peoples in Drusus' time (38-9 BC)
Tribe name on map and possible alternative spelling
what would have been the meaning/origin of the tribe-names?
Friezen - FRYAS (OLB)
Chauken - KAVCH?
Longobarden - 'longbeards'?
Chamaven - KAMAV?
Bructeren - BRVKTER?
Cherusken - KERVSK?
Sugambriërs - SVGAMBRI? (seek amber? moved region?)
Sueben - SVÔBA (OLB)
Chatten - KATTEN (cats, lions; after coat of arms)?
2) page 28 ~ Living areas of indigenous tribes in Roman times
with:
a. supposed borders
b. borders of civitas with the newly founded capitals, where seat and governement of civitas was located
c. the 'limes' or Roman Emperial border
3) page 21 ~ Coastal area of North-Holland; left circa 300 BC, right Roman times (circa 0 AD)
###Posted 23 March 2012 - 11:06 AM
Knul, on 23 March 2012 - 10:30 AM, said:
TO ÐЄRE FLЄTE JEFTA BEDRUM
ÆND ÐЄRVR SWЄFDE -N BLAWE LONGHA
1. Richthofen: "flet" = huis; 'flet' in German dialect ('Platduits') is the place where the beds are.
2. The manuscript has "LOGHA", not "LONGHA". Logha = flame ('tongue' of fire)
### Posted 24 March 2012 - 09:09 AM
Knul, on 24 March 2012 - 05:33 AM, said:
Just a simple line for those who still doubt, that the OLB has been written by J.H. Halbertsma, or even think that the OLB is authentic medieaval prose:
[MS 031] [p. 44-46]
POGA BLESAÐ HJARA SELVA VPPA ...
FORSKA HROPAÐ WÆRK - WÆRK
Halbertsma: "as in frosk, dy him fen greatskens opbliest"
OLB: Toads (POGA) blow up themselves, frogs (FORSKA) say "work, work".
Halbertsma (when did he write that?): a frog (FROSK) that blows up himself
How is this 'proof' that Halbertsma made the OLB?
### Posted 24 March 2012 - 09:39 AM
Van Gorp, on 24 March 2012 - 01:31 AM, said:
Lat-in as the opposite twisted letters of Ni-tal, which means a 'new language' in Dietsch (ny tael). But so far was clear i think :-)
For me the true meaning behind this view is that the Latin/Greek/All other Babylonian languages are indeed new languages, and intentionaly brought to live to bring people in chaos by means of disrupting the words in use from their original meaning leaving a language with meaningless words and thus meaningless talks in the truth sense about the history of mankind.
Mostly done in late middleages by unpious Monks paid by the wicked rulers of the people (even now, even now people just believe what they are being told or what is written down by authority)
...
The same as we are talking french when children are not considered to follow our conversation, the inventors of Latin knew more about it's deceitfull compositions than their fellowman.
And said f.e. to the people that Aristoteles was an ancient sage from Greece. While in fact it was a contemporary and pedantic entity to give ancient background for a new and twisted worldvision. Many people have a clue about the impossible 'intellectual' but materialistic inspired truths coming from 'it', few have a clue that the name is pronounced as 'Erwisthetalles' (beter) and that this really makes sense as it says 'He knew it all, better than the rest' -> so better live according our sage's views and all that follows :-)
...
Unless we attach again the guts to the words, meaning not talking about Liberty as Liber-ties (something where -tig books are being written) but the rebeluous spirit to break free from bondage (we have accomplished on material level, now on spiritual -> by means of the common 'sense', wat zin heeft het, the is-sens, dat maakt sense).
Very interesting! This material is hard to explain, but I think I see what you mean and I basically agree.
### Posted 24 March 2012 - 11:19 AM
Knul, on 24 March 2012 - 10:51 AM, said:
There is no better proof than 1:1.
So what is your proof?
Jean de La Fontaine (1621 - 1695) wrote a fable about a frog, that wanted to be as big as an ox, and blew up himself.
With your logic, I just 'proved' that La Fontaine wrote the OLB.
### Posted 24 March 2012 - 01:35 PM
Otharus, on 24 March 2012 - 09:09 AM, said:
OLB: Toads (POGA) blow up themselves, frogs (FORSKA) say "work, work".
In fact, the fragment is interesting, because it points to the solution of a mystery that 'official' etymology never explained:
The etymology of "pochen" (dutch for 'to bluff'), the origin of the word 'poker'.
[031/18]
POGA BLÉSATH HJARA SELVA VPPA.
ÀND HJA NE MÜGATH NAWET THÀN KRUPA.
FORSKA HROPATH WÀRK - WÀRK.
ÀND HJA NE DVATH NAWET AS HIPPA ÀND KLUCHT MÁKJA.
Oldfrisian dictionary Wiarda (1786):
Pogge - Frosch (frog)
(no frosk or forsk)
Oldfrisian dictionary Hettema (1832):
Pogge - kikvorsch (frog)
(no frosk or forsk)
Oldfrisian dictionary Richthofen (1840):
(no frosk, forsk or pogge)
Newfrisian dictionary (1896):
Froask, frosk - frog
Pod, podde - padde (toad)
Pogge, pôge - as podde, west-Dutch for frog
Westfrisian dictionary (1984):
Pog - 1) bladder or bag that precedes the birth of a calf. Compare 'voetpog' en 'waterpog'. 2) bag under the eyes; "wat kroigt ze toch lilleke pogge onder d'r ouge".
Voetpog - membrane filled with liquid and slime that brakes after the 'waterpog' at the birth of a calf.
Waterpog - membrane filled with water that precedes the 'voetpog' at the birth of a calf.
It seems as if the word "pog" is no longer used in the modern NW-European languages (maybe still in some dialects):
frog - english
kikker, kikvors - dutch
frosch - german
frosk - norwegian, icelandic
Frøer - danish
groda - swedish
froask, kikkert - newfrisian
toad - english
kröte - german
kört - icelandic
pad - dutch
padde - danish, norwegian
padda - swedish
podde - newfrisian
### Posted 24 March 2012 - 02:16 PM
Knul, on 24 March 2012 - 01:50 PM, said:
Nl. vorsch, old Eng. frosk, currently bastardised in frog, Sf. frósk, Lf. froásk ...
So Halbertsma knew the word from Stadfries (Sf) and Landfries (Lf).
Now you're contradicting yourself.
You have stated before that Halbertsma loved old-English and he obviously loved Frisian.
He did not think much of Dutch (Hollandic or Netherlandic).
In your quote, Halbertsma mentions varieties in language for "frog":
Old-english: frosk, bastardised into frog
City-Frisian: frósk
Land-Frisian: froásk
(not mentioned; German: frosch)
Dutch: vorsch
Note that (19th century) Dutch ('Netherlandic') is the only variety where R is placed after O!
Also note that the Oldfrisian dictionaries from 1786, 1832 and 1840 did not include "frosk" or "forsk".
Now look at the spelling in OLB: "FORSKA".
This spelling suggests that the Dutch spelling is more authentic than Old-english, German and (both city- and land-) Frisian.
This (using Knul's own 'logic') is proof against Halbertsma's supposed involvement in the supposed creation of the OLB.
### Posted 24 March 2012 - 02:38 PM
Knul, on 24 March 2012 - 02:14 PM, said:
The word might be related to boha
Could be, but the OLB spelling "BÁHÉI" does not suggest this.
POG = bag, bladder
POGA, POGGA = blow up, bluff (dutch: pochen), exaggerate
POHA, BOHA = exaggeration
Most probably related too: "pokken" (pox).
### Posted 24 March 2012 - 02:59 PM
Abramelin, on 24 March 2012 - 02:50 PM, said:
The OLB "POGA" is a frog.
So what would be the difference between POGA (in other fragment spelled as POGGA) and FORSKA? IMO it makes more sense that POGA means toads (padden) here.
### Posted 24 March 2012 - 06:26 PM
Knul, on 24 March 2012 - 05:31 PM, said:
Halbertsma wrote the OLB in DUTCH and then tranlated it into Oldfrisian using both Dutch and Frisian words and expresions.
Following your train of thoughts, I imagine Halbertsma translating his Dutch version into (a reconstruction of) Oldfrisian.
You have argued before that he was a Frisian nationalist who loved Old-english.
Now why would he spell FORSK (like Dutch 'vorsch') and not FROSK, as in Frisian and Old-english?
There are many more examples in the OLB where words are more similar to Dutch, when an obvious Frisian version was also available. Within your 'theory', this does not make sense at all.
### Posted 24 March 2012 - 06:36 PM
Knul, on 24 March 2012 - 05:31 PM, said:
That the Dutch spelling would be more authentic is purely nonsens.
I said that the OLB-spelling (FORSK) "suggests that the Dutch spelling is more authentic than Old-english, German and (both city- and land-) Frisian."
Halbertsma would not have wanted to suggest that!!!
### Posted 24 March 2012 - 07:51 PM
Abramelin, on 24 March 2012 - 07:37 PM, said:
The Old English "forsc" is almost exactly the same as the Dutch "vorsch". This is of course no proof of Halbertsma writing/composing the OLB, but it could have given a guy like him the idea that FORSK would be quite close to the original and oldest spelling.
The point is, that Halbertsma thought the Old-english spelling was "frosk".
From Knul's post:
Knul, on 24 March 2012 - 01:50 PM, said:
Dr. J.H. HALBERTSMA to Dr. L.A. te Winkel:
"Nl. vorsch, old Eng. frosk, currently bastardised into frog"
### Posted 24 March 2012 - 07:55 PM
Knul, on 24 March 2012 - 07:50 PM, said:
P.A.F. van Veen en N. van der Sijs (1997), Van Dale Etymologisch woordenboek:
vors* [amfibie] {vorsch(e), versch 1201-1250} met metathesis, net als oudengels forsc, vgl. oudhoogduits frosk (hoogduits Frosch), oudnoors froskr, verwant met engels froth [schuim], betekenis dus ‘het slijmige dier’.
So, why wouldn't Halbertsma use the Oldenglish variant ?
Halbertsma (1789 - 1869) did not have access to your 1997 dictionary.
He thought the correct Old-english spelling was "frosk", according to your very own quote.
### Posted 25 March 2012 - 05:22 PM
As we have noticed several times, Ottema made quite a few mistakes transcribing and translating the OLB.
In the following example, he left out a fragment, probably by mistake.
It could have been on purpose, as it is a good example of a fragment that the ruling elite of his time would not have liked, for obvious reasons.
Page 22, laws for kings and wars #8.
Original:
Transcription Ottema (1876):
Translation Ottema (1876):
Geen koning mag langer dan drie jaren koning blijven,
opdat hij niet bestendig moge worden.
Translation Sandbach (1876):
No king may be in office more than three years,
in order that the office may not be permanent.
Translation Raubenheimer (2011):
No king may remain king for longer than three years
lest he becomes entrenched.
New transcription:
ANNEN KÉNING NE MÉI NAVT NI LÔNGER AS THRÉ JÉR KÉNING BILÍWA.
TILTHJU HI NAVT BIKLÍWA NE MÉI VSA FRYDOM TO SKADANE.
Translation Jensma (2006):
Een koning mag niet langer dan drie jaar koning blijven,
omdat hij niet beklijven mag tot schade van onze vrijheid.
Translation of underlined part:
damaging our freedom
### Posted 26 March 2012 - 09:25 AM
The Puzzler, on 26 March 2012 - 02:05 AM, said:
http://en.wikipedia....basque_mythology
I'm fascinated by something I read on that Basque wiki-page:
Mythological creatures and characters [...]
Erge is an evil spirit that takes men's lives. [...]
In Dutch and (old-) Frisian, "erg" or "arg" (OLB: "ÀRG") means bad or evil.
"Erge" can literally be translated as "evil one".
### Posted 26 March 2012 - 10:49 PM
TÉJA - this verb, that appears three times in the OLB (see below) was translated with help of the context; [note added 3-9-2018: past perfect TÁGEN is also used; related forms added 10-9-2018: TJAN and (some or all of these:) ANTJAN, TJUCH(T), (BI)TJUGA, THJUGHA, TJUGUM, VRTJÛGAD, TJÛGANDE, TUCH(T), (VN)TUCHT(IGA), SIN.TÜGA etc., - thanks, Pierre Jakob!]
the word is NOT known in Dutch or (old-) Frisian, and as far as I know also not in English or German. [At second thought... the English verb "to tie" will be related!]
I suspect that the Spanish (!) "tejer" = to weave is the closest and most likely relative.
This word would also be related to the word "textile".
1. [040/19]
ALLE ELTE MINNISKA WERTHAT DRONGEN A BÀRN TO TÉJANDE
[Jensma p.151]
Alle gezonde mensen worden gedrongen om kinderen te verwekken
[Ottema p.59] note: transcription error "têlande"
Allevolwassen [gezonde] menschen worden gedrongen kinderen te verwekken
[Sandbach p.59]
Allmen [healthy people] have a natural desire to have [make] children
2. [073/03]
WI HÉDON VSA STÉNE BURCH.WAL MITH TWAM HORNUM OMTÉJEN ALTO THA SÉ
[Jensma p.217]
wij hadden onze stenen burchtwal met twee hoornen omtrokken tot aan de zee
[Ottema p.103]
wij hadden onze steenen burgtwal met twee hoornen omgebogen tot aan de zee
[Sandbach p.103]
we had built our stone city wall with two horns down to the sea
3. [148/24]
FON HJARA STORESTE TOGHTERA VMB THÉR BÍ BERN TO TÉJANDE
[Jensma p.367]
van hun sterkste dochters (om daarbij kinderen te telen)
[Ottema p.201]
van hunne grootste dochters, om bij deze kinderen te verwekken
[Sandbach p.201]
of theirfinest [largest] daughters to have [make] children by
But of course!!!
Dutch: "touw" = rope
Oldfrisian (Hettema dictionary, 1832):
"Tawa, taauje, bereiden, maken, touwen." (= prepare, make)
### Posted 27 March 2012 - 08:45 AM
Knul, on 27 March 2012 - 04:15 AM, said:
So two different words: tejen = geteeld ; om tejen = omtrokken.
No. Just one word with a variety.
TÉJA = touwen (very oldfashioned dutch) = maken (to make)
OM-TÉJA = om-touwen = om-maken (to make-around)
### Posted 27 March 2012 - 08:58 AM
Knul, on 27 March 2012 - 04:15 AM, said:
Hettema (Idioticon Frisicum, 1874)
This dictionary appeared 2 years after the first OLB-publication.
I bet he used the OLB as a source for these two entries, based on Ottema's translations.
### Posted 27 March 2012 - 09:53 AM
Abramelin, on 27 March 2012 - 09:43 AM, said:
I think the word you are looking for is "tuien" = to tether (vastsjorren).
"Tuien" might be related to "touwen", but its meaning "to tether" does not make sense in the 3 OLB-fragments.
### Posted 27 March 2012 - 10:16 AM
Abramelin, on 27 March 2012 - 09:58 AM, said:
http://www.etymologi...trefwoord/tuien
It looks like the Dutch touwen, tuien, tooien, the Spanish tejer and the English to tie are all related.
Weaving, attaching with rope(s), making, preparing, etc.
### Posted 27 March 2012 - 11:32 AM
Abramelin, on 27 March 2012 - 10:44 AM, said:
We still have a Dutch saying, "geboren en getogen" = born and raised/bred.
getogen = getooid = getouwd = gemaakt
(in the expression 'geboren en getogen' it means raised, not conceived, but to raise a child just means to make it into an adult)
Quote
ALLE ELTE MINNISKA WERTHAT DRONGEN A BÀRN TO TÉJANDE
Alle gezonde mensen worden gedrongen om kinderen op te voeden
All healthy people have the urge to raise kids.
-
FON HJARA STORESTE TOGHTERA VMB THÉR BÍ BERN TO TÉJANDE
Van haar sterkste dochters om daarbij kinderen op te voeden
Of her strongest daughters to raise kids with them
IMO 'to make kids' makes more sense. (What would urge you more, to make a child or to raise one?)
BTW 'STOR' still means big, large in Swedish.
They chose the largest women, because they wanted tall and strong sons.
Quote
WI HÉDON VSA STÉNE BURCH.WAL MITH TWAM HORNUM OMTÉJEN ALTO THA SÉ
We hadden onze stenen burchtwal met twee hoornen opgetrokken tot aan de zee
We had raised our stone city wall with two horns down to the sea
To raise a wall = to make a wall
### Posted 27 March 2012 - 05:31 PM
These varieties can be added on the right side:
τείνω (teino) - greek (origin of tendon and tension!)
to tow - english
tegne - danish, norwegian
ziehen, zeugen - german
tijgen - (oldfashioned) dutch (past tense: toog, getogen)
tiigje, tije, tsjen - frisian
Oldflemmish, -frisian, -dutch, -german:
tiën, thien, tijen, tia(n), tion, tien, tyen, tihen, tigen, ziohan, zihen
The number of varieties and meanings of this word indicate a very old age.
### Posted 27 March 2012 - 06:06 PM
Abramelin, on 27 March 2012 - 12:03 PM, said:
Yes, I made a mistake with STORESTE. It should be "STOERSTE" in Dutch or 'sturdiest' in English.
Sturdy also means 'robuust', 'fors', 'potig', and 'ferm'. I think 'sturdiest' is a better translation for STORESTE than just 'large'. It's also etymologically closer to the OLB word.
In Danish, Swedish, Norwegian and Icelandic, "stor" or "stór" means big, large.
In the following fragment it is used for a ship, so it can still mean 'big' as well as 'strong' or 'sturdy' (usually the same anyway), but just 'big' makes most sense IMO.
[075/11]
NÉI HAT WI IN TWILIF JÉR TID NÉN KRÉKA LÁNDAR TO ÁLMANLÁND SJÁN HÉDE
KÉMON THÉR THRJU SKÉPA SA SÍRLIK AS WI NÉN HÉDON
ÀND TO FARA NIMMER NÉDE SJAN.
VPPET STOROSTE THÉRA. WÉRE.N KÉNING THÉRA JHONHIS É.LANDUM.
Wiarda (1786)
Stor = stark, gross, ganz, viel
Hettema (1832)
Stor = stoer, sterk, groot, veel
Richthofen (1840)
Stor = gross
Anyway, I usually also like to stay as close to the original word as possible.
So no debate here, just a FYI.
### Posted 29 March 2012 - 09:27 AM
Knul, on 28 March 2012 - 01:37 PM, said:
ALDA FON DЄGUM - Ouden van Dagen (MS 102, r. 23),
which in your opinion is Oldfrisian,
but in my opinion modern Dutch.
If you don't agree please show me an Oldfrisian text for this.
In my opinion, the expression could be Oldfrisian.
It is obvious that the accepted sources we have, will not give a complete record of all old words and expressions.
The expression is actually known from Old-Greek "Παλαιός Ημερών", usually translated as "ancient of days", referring to God in the Aramaic tradition (reminds me of WR-ALDA: "over-old one"), but it just means "old of days" (Dutch: "oude van dagen", Oldfrisian "ALDA FON DÉGUM").
We may have gotten it from the Greeks, or vice versa.
### Posted 29 March 2012 - 09:53 AM
Knul, on 28 March 2012 - 10:02 AM, said:
I told you that it is known to be Oldfrisian and gave Hettema's Idioticon Frisicum as a source.
Yet you claim, that it is not in the dictionaries. Here is a next source: Koebler [...]
Hettema's Idioticon Frisicum is from 1874, and Köbler's Altfriesisches Wörterbuch is from 2003.
My point was (and is) that the word "TÉJA" was not to be found in any Oldfrisian dictionary, when OLB was supposed to have been concocted (that is, before 1867).
Surely, we can find words that are related (I am finding more already), but that is a different story.
My main question is this:
1) Is OLB merely based on knowledge and phantasies that were available in the mid-19th century,
or:
2) Does OLB contain information that can help our current knowledge about language (and history) evolve?
My answer:
1) No, it went way too much against the 19th C. paradigm
2) YES!
### Posted 29 March 2012 - 11:25 AM
OLB versions of "tawa", "touwen" (to make, create, prepare), only used in the context of making laws, rules, morals (ÉWA, SETMA):
[021/24]
HÍR FOLGATH THA ÉWA THÉR THÉR.UT TAVLIKT SEND
[025/07]
SAHWERSA THÉR ÉWA VRWROCHT WRDE. JEFA NÉJA SETMA TAVLIKT
[031/07]
THA ÉWA THÉR THÉRNÉI TAVLIKT SEND
[033/02]
IS THÉR ENG KWÁD DÉN HWÉRVR NÉN ÉWA TAVLIKT SEND
[098/31]
THÉR NE SEND NÉN GODE SETMA JEFTHA HJA MOTON THÉR NÉI TAVLIKT WÉSA
[99/08]
THA ÉWA THÉR HJU TAVLIKT HETH
### Posted 29 March 2012 - 11:34 AM
This is how Doctor Jensma (2006) explained "TAVLIKT" (p.113):
"van toeflikken, samenflikken = samenflansen, samenlappen; grappig bedoeld"
("from to-flick, flick-together = fudge, botch, patch, jumble; meant to be funny")
All three 19th C. Oldfrisian dictionaries; Wiarda (1786), Hettema (1832) and Richthofen (1840) had TAULIK or TAULIC (man-made, in context of laws).
### Posted 30 March 2012 - 12:17 PM
FRYA. FÀSTA. MÉDÉA. THJANJA. HELLÉNJA ÀND FÉLO ÔTHERA
~ another example of a discrepancy between 'official' etymology and that suggested by OLB ~
In the OLB, the following varieties of the word THJANJA (to serve) are found.
Dutch and English meaning as well as fragment numbers (see below) are added.
THJANJA - name (=> Diana?) [18]
THJANJA - dienen - to serve [1,2,8,10,11,15,19,22]
TO THJANJANDE - te dienende - serving, to serve [4]
THJANATH - (hij) dient - (he) serves [6,13]
THJANATH - gediend (wezen, hebben) - (to be, to have) served [12,14]
THJANJATH - gediend (worden) - (to be) served [21]
THJANADE - (hij) diende - (he) served [20]
THJANEST - dienst - service [7b]
THJANIST - dienst - service [7a]
THJANESTA - diensten - services [3,16]
THJANJAR - dienaars - servants [17]
THJANRA - dienaars - servants [5]
THJANSTERUM - diensters, dienaressen - female servants [9]
Oldfrisian dictionaries (pre-OLB)
Wiarda (1786)
tinia, tyena, thiania - to serve
thianst, thianest - service
thianster - witch (!)
Hettema (1832)
thiania, tjaenje - to serve
thiansta, tjaenst - service, servant
thianster, tjaonster - witch (!)
Richthofen (1840)
thiania, tienia - to serve
thianer, tiener - servant
thianost, thianest, thianst, tienst - service
(!) note that in OLB the spelling for witch is "THJONSTER", and no relation to "THJANJA" (to serve) is suggested.
[034/15]
AS THV THÀN NÉN THJONSTER NE BISTE
Varieties in modern languages
to serve (verb):
dienen - dutch, german
tsjinje - frisian
tjene - danish, norwegian
tjäna - swedish
þjóna, thjóna - icelandic
Old-English, -German, -Norse
The term thegn (or thane or thayn in Shakespearean English), from OE þegn, ðegn "servant, attendant, retainer", is commonly used to describe either an aristocratic retainer of a king or nobleman in Anglo-Saxon England, or as a class term, the majority of the aristocracy below the ranks of ealdormen and high-reeves. It is also the term for an early medieval Scandinavian class of retainers.
Etymology: Old English þeg(e)n "servant, attendant, retainer" is cognate with Old High German degan and Old Norse þegn ("thane, franklin, freeman, man").
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thegn
'Official' etymology of Diana
Diana is an adjectival form developed from an ancient *divios, corresponding to later 'divus', 'dius', as in Dius Fidius, Dea Dia and in the neuter form dium meaning the sky. It is rooted in Indoeuropean *d(e)y(e)w, meaning bright sky or daylight, from which also derived the name of Vedic god Dyaus and the Latin deus, (god) and dies (day, daylight).
On the Tablets of Pylos a theonym δι(digamma)ια is supposed as referring to a deity precursor of Artemis. Modern scholars mostly accept the identification.
The ancient Latin writers Varro and Cicero considered the etymology of Dīāna as allied to that of dies and connected to the shine of the Moon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diana_(mythology)
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
1. [008/20]
FON HJARA SUSTERUM LÉTON HJA.RA THJANJA
2. [015/19]
FÁMNA THÉR VPPA ORA BURGUM AS MODER THJANJA
3. [016/09]
FAR THISSA THJANESTA SKILUN HJA LÉRA FRYA.S TEX
4. [017/06]
IS THÉR ÀMMAN KÉREN VMBE VPPA BURGUM TO THJANJANDE
5. [034/05]
JVWAR HÉROGA THJANRA WISA HEL.LÉNJA
6. [034/24]
HWÉRTO THJANATH THENE HVND
7.a/b [034/28]
HWAT THENE HVND IS INNA THJANIST THES SKÉP.HÀRDER.
BIN IK IN FRYA.S THJANEST
8. [057/26]
VMBE THA KÀNINGAR FON FINDA.S. FOLK TO THJANJA
9. [061/24]
THISSA MANGHÉRTNE WÉRON HJARA THJANSTERUM
10. [093/15]
SA SKOLDE HJRA BODA SINA WICHAR TO WÉI.WÍSER THJANJA
11. [095/29]
HWÉRTO SKOLDE HJA THJANJA
12. [100/29]
GÍRIGA DROCHTNE [...] THAM ÉRATH ÀND THJANATH WILLATH WÉSA
13. [107/24]
THET FJELD THJANATH TO KÀMP ÀND TO WÉDE
14. [110/13]
MÀNNISKA THÉR THJANATH HÉDE TO ROJAR
15. [121/15]
IK WIL BLÁT THÀT STV MY THJANJA SKOLSTE VMB LÁN
16. [127/05]
TO LÁNJA HIM TOFÁRA SINA THJANESTA
17. [130/07]
THA JOHNJAR SEND AFGODA THJANJAR
18. [132/26]
FRYA. FÀSTA. MÉDÉA. THJANJA. HELLÉNJA ÀND FÉLO ÔTHERA
19. [135/02]
ELLA MOSTE THJANJA VMBE THA FORSTA ÀND PRESTERA JETA RIKER ÀND WELDIGER TO MÁKJANE
20. [137/04]
ÀND FRYA.S.STJÛRAR THÉR AS SLÁV THJANADE
21. [204/29]
TO THA LESTA WÀRTH HJU THRVCH HJAM FOLGATH ÀND THJANJATH
22. [207/21]
THÀT STORA FOLK [...] MOS RA AS SLÁVONA THJANJA
To my own surprise, I am the first (as far as I know) who interprets Thjanja as Diana.
Checked: Ottema (1872/1876), Sandbach (1876), Wirth (1933), Overwijn (1941/1951), Jensma (2006), de Heer (2008), Raubenheimer (2011), Knul (2012)
"For Friso's inheritance ~ 175 years Frisian Society"
by Goffe Jensma, published in
"Het Fries Genootschap 1827-2002" (2002).
(translation, for original see attached scan; p.61-62)
The Oera Linda-book, that surfaced in 1867 as one of the many manuscripts that were discussed in the meetings of the Fries Genootschap (Frisian Society), for many years in bursts dominated the discussions within the Frisian Society, as well as outside. The manuscript seemed to agree with all Frisian fantasies and exaggerated them. The Frisians did not descend from Friso, who would have come from India to Friesland, they were much older: Friso was a descendant from a colony of Frisians that had already moved from Friesland to India in the fifteenth century BCE, led by the daughter of Great Pier [(c.1480 – 1520 CE)], would you believe. The book did make use of the new methods to approach ancient history; it referred to theories about the qualities of races, as explained by Quatrefages, and it suggested that the history of the European white race equalled that of the Free Frisians.
The reputation of the Frisian Society suffered a lot from this history, not so much because of the book itself, but mostly because a prominent board member of the Society, Jan Gerhardus Ottema believed in it, and published it (independently from the Society) in 1871.
François Haverschmidt - vicar ànd member of the Society - and his friend Eelco Verwijs - working member of the Society -, who created and brought it into the world respectively, demonstrated in other works by their hands, that they rejected the fantastic historiography. By choosing the form of a mystification, this remained implicit, and the discussion did not come to an end, neither about the OLB, nor about the Frisian myth. It would take another generation before the Society would start discussing the myth not only as a form of literature, but also scientifically.
This was 2 years BEFORE Jensma published his THEORY about Haverschmidt and Verwijs.
To translate GÉRT.PIRE.HIS TOGHATER with
In this forum we concluded that it makes no sense at all.
It is an interpretation based on Jensma's assumption that OL is meant to be a joke, but he presents it as neutral fact.
When Jensma wrote this, he was 'doctorandus' (master of arts) in history and philosophy.
Even in my first year at university (I am a master of science), I would not have gotten away with presenting my theories as if they are facts.
The board members of the Frisan Society, who were about to celebrate their 175th jubilee must have wanted him (and paid him) to finally silence the OLB debate, to leave no doubt about it being fake and mystery solved.
I have read and heard enough by now to understand that the OLB is the worst pain in their arses. Thinking about the book means having sleepless nights and headaches... or worse.
And I know too well (also from personal experiece) that scientists of every generation are paid to 'prove' whatever their patrons want them to 'scientifically' prove.
### Posted 02 March 2012 - 09:16 PM
Otharus, on 02 March 2012 - 06:44 PM, said:
Jensma: "[...] Jan Gerhardus Ottema believed in it, and published it (...) in 1871."
Ottema published the first OLB-transcription & -translation in 1872!
### Posted 03 March 2012 - 11:02 AM
Otharus, on 06 February 2012 - 10:51 AM, said:
"Over den loop der Rivieren door het land der Friezen en Batavieren in het Romeinsche Tijdperk" by Dr. J.G. Ottema in De Vrije Fries 4 (1846) p.125.
Not published online before (as far as I know):
Jan Ottema´s pre-OLB Land der Friezen (1851)
(reconstruction of ca. year zero)
p. 49 of "Het Fries Genootschap 1827-2002" (2002)
### Posted 03 March 2012 - 12:00 PM
Even professional liars leave traces that make it possible - for people who read between the lines - to reconstruct some truth.
Here is another reveiling fragment of
"Om de erfenis van Friso ~ 175 jaar Fries Genootschap" by Goffe Jensma, published in "Het Fries Genootschap 1827-2002" (2002), from chapter 3: "Voorgeschiedenis, 1750-1827"
(translation, for original see attached scan; p.26)
The Frisian Society (Fries Genootschap) might not have been founded, if king Willem I [(1772–1843)] would not have convoked all 'fatherlandic historians and linguists' by Royal Order of 23 December 1826, to submit proposals for the concoction of a 'General Netherlandic History'.
Until then an enterprise like that had not been undertaken, despite of 'the great importance of such a history, that aims at cultivating love for the fatherland, stimulating civic virtue and maintaining the national character'.
At this occasion he had also promised money for plausible proposals, even if they would not be awarded.
Binkes [(founding secretary)] in his report referred to this Royal Order, which proves that the orientation of the Frisian Society at its own Frisian history, primarily has to be seen as a contribution to Netherlandic nation building.
The members of the Frisian Society considered the scientific Frisian historiography as part of a more comprehensive Netherlandic historiography, just like they saw Friesland as an integral part of the 'Kingdom of the Netherlands'.
### Posted 06 March 2012 - 05:28 PM
Two examples of far-fetched (and needlessly confusing) spelling in new-Frisian (ny-Frysk)
example 1
wind - dutch, english, german
vind - danish, swedish, norwegian
vindur - icelandic
vent - french
vento - italian, portuguese
viento - italian
ventus - latin
wyn - new-frisian (note: same spelling as for wine!)
----- compare:
wine - english
wein - german
wijn - dutch
vin - danish, swedish, norwegian, french
vín - icelandic
vino - italian, spanish
vinho - portuguese
vinum - latin
wyn - new-frisian (same spelling as for wind)
----------
example 2
taxis - english, german, french, spanish
taxi - italian
táxis - portuguese
taxi's - dutch
taxier - danish
taxibilar - swedish
taksys - new-frisian (pronounced the same as in dutch)
### Posted 06 March 2012 - 10:56 PM
Otharus, on 06 March 2012 - 05:28 PM, said:
Example of far-fetched (and needlessly confusing) spelling in new-Frisian (ny-Frysk)
WIND - old-frisian (Richthofen dictionary) and OLB-language
wind - dutch, english, german
wyn - new-frisian (same spelling as for wine)
vind - danish, swedish, norwegian
vindur - icelandic
vent - french
vento - italian, portuguese
viento - italian
ventus - latin
In the quoted example above, Dutch, English and German use exactly the same spelling for "wind" as Old-Frisian, and the Scandinavian languages have almost the same spelling; the only difference is that they use V where we have W.
Affected (artificial) spell-Frisian has changed the I into a Y and has left out the D or T at the end.
Now I will give another, even more obvious example of how modern Frisian spelling (since the late 19th century) is designed to be different.
LAND - old-frisian and OLB-language
land - english, dutch, german, danish, swedish, norwegian, icelandic
lân - new-frisian
- - -
pays - french
país - spanish, portuguese
paese - italian
There are a few fragments in the OLB about the bastardisation of language.
History and language are political tools to unite or seperate peoples.
The silent readers of this thread who know more about the OLB and Frisian cultural history, will know exactly what I mean.
They may also start to understand why professor doctor Jensma got zero new students to study Frisian language and literature with him last year.
Because one of the most important reasons to reject the OLB as authentic was, that the language would be too modern, it is most relevant to think about the evolution of language and spelling.
### Posted 08 March 2012 - 08:39 AM
Knul, on 07 March 2012 - 12:48 PM, said:
... the author used the characteristics of Oldfrisian grammar for modern Dutch words and expressions.
What "modern words and expressions"? You don't know how "modern" they are.
Oral language is much older than our accepted written records of it.
### Posted 09 March 2012 - 09:23 AM
Knul, on 09 March 2012 - 12:53 AM, said:
Who knows the meaning of ULK ?
Check any Oldfrisian dictionary.
VLKE, ULKE = wolk (dutch), wolke (german), cloud (english)
And of course it does make sense; the priests were creating a supernatural myth about her.
### Posted 11 March 2012 - 07:46 AM
Van Gorp, on 11 March 2012 - 12:43 AM, said:
Serious, I don't have much to do with Hebrew/Phoenicians, so I don't know much about it/them.
But I know not every single people/language on earth is a deravation of them.
I admit, in that sense I'm a heretic and non-believer.
As long as official etymology can't give a good explanation of the meaning and origin of 'Rome' i don't bother too much with all their other fairy tales.
### Posted 12 March 2012 - 11:57 AM
Before I continue with other things, I will post some translated fragments from "Het Geheim van het Oera-Linda-Boek" (the secret of the OLB) by Murk de Jong (1927).
Page 34, a quote from F. Binkes in "De Vrije Fries" (the free Frisian) #1 (1839):
"There are two kinds of people, that are most harmful for the practice of history: those who believe everything and those who believe nothing. The first present us anything they find, without sifting, ripe and green, plausible and improbable; but the second reject anything that at their own first sight seems to have no historical certainty. They cut all this out with a so-called skeptical trimming knife, that is often very blunt, or used very awkwardly by them."
To this M. de Jong adds the following comment:
The author [Binkes] does not hesitate to declare, that the unbelievers have harmed old Frisian history infinitely more than the naive believers.
On the same page dr. de Jong gives a similar quote from J.H. Halbertsma in "De Vrije Fries" #11 (1868):
"Frisian history to her great misfortune has mostly fallen in the hands of ultras, who either rigorously rejected the old sagas as worthless fiction, or accepted them as historical truth".
### Posted 12 March 2012 - 12:45 PM
Another fragment from "Het Geheim van het Oera-Linda-Boek" (the secret of the OLB) by Murk de Jong (1927).
Page 74:
The only megalithic tomb ['hunebed'] of Friesland, that - as a memory of the Stone Age - would be much older than Adela, on the Van Swinderen estate in Rijs (Gaasterland), was destroyed immediately after its discovery in 1849, even before the archaeologist Dr. Jansen had heard about it.
And (paraphrased):
Dr. J.H. Halbertsma explained the phenomenon, that in Friesland so little antiquities are found:
The glory-addiction, that results in erecting monuments for oneself and others, was unknown to the sober and solid nature of the Frisians, as they chose to BE great, rather than APPEAR great.
### Posted 13 March 2012 - 02:39 PM
The language of the OLB is either an ancestor of English, Dutch, German and Swedish,
or an inconceivably good reconstruction of it.
The following is just a reading (ex)sample to demonstrate this.
Letter of copyist Hidde Oera Linda to his son Okke (first unnumbered page of OLB):
OKKE MIN1 SVN2.
THISSA3 BOKA4 MOT5 I MITH6 LIF7 ÀND8 SÉLE9 WÁRJA10.
SE VMBIFATTATH THJU SKÉDNISSE FON VS ÉLE FOLK11
ÁK FON VSA ÉTHLUM.
VRLÉDEN JÉR12 HÀB IK13 THAM UT14.ER FLOD15 HRED
TOLIK MITH THI ÀND THINRA MODER16.
THA HJA WÉRON WET WRDEN.
THÉRTHRVCH GVNGON HJA ÀFTERNEI VRDARVA.
VMBE HJA NAVT TO VRLYSA
HÀB IK RA VP WRLANDISK PAMPÍER17 VVRSKRÉVEN.
SAHWERSA THV SE ERVE.
MOT THU SE ÁK WRSKRÍVA.
THIN BÀRN ALSA TILTHJU HJA NIMMERTHE WÉI NAVT NE KVMA.
SKRÉVVEN TO LJUWERT.
NÉI ÁTLAND SVNKEN IS.
THÀT THRJA18 THÚSOND19.FJVWER20 HVNDRED21 ÀND NJUGON22 ÀND FJVWERTIGOSTE JÉR.
THÀT IS NEI KERSTEN RÉKNONG
THAT TVELF23.HVNDRED.SEX24 ÀND FIFTIGOSTE JÉR. ~
HIDDE TOBINOMATH25 OERA LINDA. ~
WÁK26. ~
e = english
d = dutch
g = german
s = swedish
1 MIN - e My/ Mine, d Mijn, g Mein, s Min
2 SVN - e Son, d Zoon, g Sohn, s Son
3 THISSA - e These, d Deze, g Diese, s Detta
4 plural of BOK - e Book, d Boek, f , g Buch, s Bok
5 MOT - e Must, d Moet, g Muss, s Måst
6 MITH - e With, d Met, g Mit, s Med
7 LIF - e Life, d Lijf/ Leven, g Leib/ Leben, s Liv
8 ÀND - e And, d En, g Und, s Och
9 SÉLE - e Soul, d Ziel, g Seele, s Själ
10 WÁRJA - e Beware, d Bewaren, g Bewahren, s Bevara
11 FOLK - e Folk, d Volk, g Volk, s Folk
12 JÉR - e Year, d Jaar, g Jahr, s År
13 IK - e I, d Ik, g Ich, s Jag
14 UT - e Out, d Uit, g Aus, s Ut
15 FLOD - e Flood, d Vloed, g Flut, s Flod
16 MODER - e Mother, d Moeder, g Mutter, s Mor
17 PAMPÍER - e Paper, d Papier, g Papier, s Papper
18 THRJA - e Three, d Drie, g Drei, s Tre
19 THÚSOND - e Thousand, d Duizend, g Tausend, s Tusen
20 FJVWER - e Four, d Vier, g Vier, s Fyra
21 HVNDRED - e Hundred, d Honderd, g Hundert, s Hundra
22 NJUGON - e Nine, d Negen, g Neun, s Nio
23 TVELF - e Twelve, d Twaalf, g Zwölf, s Tolv
24 SEX - e Six, d Zes, g Sechs, s Sex
25 NOMA - e Name, d Naam, g Nahme, s Namn
26 WÁK - e Wake/ Watch, d Waak/ Wacht, g Wache, s Vak
### Posted 13 March 2012 - 05:22 PM
Some agreements and differences between OLB and known Frisian myths, sagas or legends.
(based on p.145-150 of "Het Geheim van het Oera-Linda-Boek" by M. de Jong, 1927)
1. Myth: Friso arrived in 313 BC (Scarlensis: 299 BC), marking the start of Frisian history.
OLB: [p.119] He arrived in 303 BC, ca. 1900 years after oldest described historical event (big flood).
2. Myth: Friso arrived in a desolate, uninhabited land.
OLB: He returned in a land that had suffered much of a flood, but still had inhabitants and cities, as well as a high culture.
3. Myth: Friso was a prince from India.
OLB: [p.74] Friso was a descendant from a Fryan colony in Athens that had resettled in India ca. 1550 BC.
4. Myth: Friso had two brothers, Saxo and Bruno.
OLB: Friso had two brothers-in-law, Hetto and Bruno. The 'Saxmen' were much older than Friso.
5. Myth: Bruno is founder of Brunswijk.
OLB: [p.151] Bruno goes to 'Mannagarda-wrda', Munster according to Ottema (Medieval name: 'Minnegarte-wrta').
6. Myth: Hetto is a son of Friso.
OLB: [p.150] Hetto (meaning: the hot one) is a brother-in-law and goes to 'Kattaburch' (Kassel) in the Saxmarks, which suggests an etymology for 'Hessen'.
7. Myth: Friso had served in the army of Alexander the Great.
OLB: [p.125] He also served under Demetrius (son of Antigonus), who kidnapped his son and daughter. Friso remarried in Stavia.
8. Myth: Friso was a great king and primal father of the Frisians.
OLB: [p.145] He was kind of an usurper, hostile towards the ancient polity of matriarchs and burgladies. He tried to win followers with gold and did not allow that a new Mother was chosen [p.151-153]. He tried to connect with one of the oldest and noblest clans, the Oera-Lindas or Adelinga, by having his youngest daughter Konrnhélja marry Háchgána, son of Wiljo and Fréthorik, brother of Koneréd Oera Linda [p.146]. To please the Oera Lindas he also named his son (from his new wife Swéthirte) 'Adel'. Friso did NOT become king [p.154].
9. Myth: Friso's father was named 'Adel', king of 'Phresia' or 'Pharrosia' (at Ganges river), and some of the later kings after Friso (his descendants) were named 'Adel'. One of his granddaughters was named 'Adela'.
OLB: Inspired by the 'book of Adelinga', Friso named his son 'Adel' (see 8.).
10. Myth: Adel (son of Friso) married Swob, daughter of the Sueban king.
OLB: [p.155] Adel (son of Friso) married Jfkja (nicknamed Svôbene) from Svôbaland.
11. Myth: Another son of Friso was named 'Vitho' or 'Jotho'. He married the daughter of the Cimbrian king and became principal of Jutland (suggesting that Jutland was named after him). In Frisian myth, the Cimbrian king and his daughter had different names than in OLB.
OLB: [p.150] In OLB he is named just 'Witto' (the white). He saved 'Sjuchtherte', daughter of 'Wilhim' (principal of the Juttar) from the Sélanders, became her husband and the successor of her father.
12. Myth: Friso had one wife only, named Hilla, from Asian descent. They had seven sons and one daughter, being the youngest. The daughter was named 'Vimoda' ('weemoed' means melancholy), because her mother had died at giving birth.
OLB: Friso remarried with the Fryan 'Swéthirte', daughter of 'Wilfréthe' (gréva of Staveren). They had two sons and two daughters. The oldest daughter was named 'Wémod'; she married 'Kavch', son of 'Wichhirte', king of the Gértmànna [p.146]. Her name suggests the origin of the area Wimodia or Vigmodia in lower-Elbe. The name Kauch suggests an origin for the name of the Kauchen or Chauken tribe in East-Friesland.
13. Myth: The successors of Friso's son Adel were 'Ubbo' (namegiver of the Ubii), and 'Asinga Ascon', who was in his 71st reigning year in the year zero.
OLB: The four successors of Friso were all named 'Adel'; the fourth was nicknamed 'Black Adel' or 'Asega Askar' (which in the OLB language means something like claimant of the law) [p.195].
###Posted 15 March 2012 - 09:16 AM
Otharus, on 14 October 2010 - 04:49 PM, said:
Goffe Th. Jensma wrote a thesis about the OLB and is generally accepted to be the 'official authority' on the subject. He is now professor of Frisian language and literature at the University of Groningen.
http://www.rug.nl/staff/g.t.jensma
At a public discussion on the occasion of his promotion, none of the speakers agreed with his conclusion that François Haverschmidt must have been the genius behind OLB. (see below)
Source: Leeuwarder Courant, friday 10 december 2004
Translation of relevant fragment:
"Although the speakers without exception praised Jensma's work, he had not been able to convince any of them of his truth that François Haverschmidt is the main author of the OLB."
Original fragment in Dutch:
"Hoewel de sprekers zonder uitzondering vol lof waren over het werk van Jensma, had hij niemand kunnen overtuigen van zijn waarheid dat François Haverschmidt de belangrijkste auteur van het Oera Linda-boek is."
The panel members that unanimously disagreed with Jensma's conclusion, in the debate held at 6 december 2004 (Leeuwarden), were:
- dr. Eric Cossee, professor Dutch church history at Groningen University
- dr. Marita Mathijsen, professor Dutch linguistics and literature (specialised in 19th century) at Amsterdam University
- dr. Henk D. Meijering, emeritus professor Oldfrisian and Oldsaxon at the Free University (Amsterdam)
Source: "Jûn oer de dissertaasje fan Goffe Jensma" ('evening about Jensma's dissertation') in "Fryslân" 2004 #3, p.12.
###Posted 15 March 2012 - 10:32 AM
The following is copied from:
"Negen Eeuwen Friesland-Holland ~ geschiedenis van een haat-liefde verhouding"
('nine centuries Friesland-Holland ~ history of a hate-love affair')
by Breuker & Janse (editors), published 1997 by the Fryske Akademy.
This post (in parts) is for those who can read Dutch.
I intend to translate the most relevant fragments later.
"Het ontstaan van het Fries en het Hollands"
('the emergence of the Frisian and the Dutch language')
by Rolf H. Bremmer jr.
==>> see on U.M.-forum
### Posted 15 March 2012 - 07:36 PM
Abramelin, on 15 March 2012 - 07:18 PM, said:
Btw, not the spoil the fun, but you have been posting many scans from Rolf Bremmer's Dutch article..... and I think I recognize here and there parts I have read online... but in English. I know I have posted links to online English books by his hand. You might want to check these online books first, and before you start translating.
OK thanks, I hadn't started translating yet.
Have a good read of the last part, "Besluit".
The map about "twisken" (fig.4) is very interesting too.
### Posted 17 March 2012 - 01:13 PM
Chapter 1 of "Hir is eskriven ~ lezen en schrijven in de Friese landen rond 1300" ('reading and writing in the Frisian lands ca. 1300'), by Rolf H. Bremmer jr. (Fryske Akademy, 2004).
Title: "Zoveel geschreven, zo weinig gebleven" ('so much written, so little saved')
(sorry no translation yet)
==>> see on U.M.-forum
### Posted 22 March 2012 - 02:09 PM
Three maps from "Frieslands Oudheid" by H. Halbertsma (2000)
1) page 16 ~ Frisia and surrounding peoples in Drusus' time (38-9 BC)
Tribe name on map and possible alternative spelling
what would have been the meaning/origin of the tribe-names?
Friezen - FRYAS (OLB)
Chauken - KAVCH?
Longobarden - 'longbeards'?
Chamaven - KAMAV?
Bructeren - BRVKTER?
Cherusken - KERVSK?
Sugambriërs - SVGAMBRI? (seek amber? moved region?)
Sueben - SVÔBA (OLB)
Chatten - KATTEN (cats, lions; after coat of arms)?
2) page 28 ~ Living areas of indigenous tribes in Roman times
with:
a. supposed borders
b. borders of civitas with the newly founded capitals, where seat and governement of civitas was located
c. the 'limes' or Roman Emperial border
3) page 21 ~ Coastal area of North-Holland; left circa 300 BC, right Roman times (circa 0 AD)
###Posted 23 March 2012 - 11:06 AM
Knul, on 23 March 2012 - 10:30 AM, said:
TO ÐЄRE FLЄTE JEFTA BEDRUM
ÆND ÐЄRVR SWЄFDE -N BLAWE LONGHA
1. Richthofen: "flet" = huis; 'flet' in German dialect ('Platduits') is the place where the beds are.
2. The manuscript has "LOGHA", not "LONGHA". Logha = flame ('tongue' of fire)
### Posted 24 March 2012 - 09:09 AM
Knul, on 24 March 2012 - 05:33 AM, said:
Just a simple line for those who still doubt, that the OLB has been written by J.H. Halbertsma, or even think that the OLB is authentic medieaval prose:
[MS 031] [p. 44-46]
POGA BLESAÐ HJARA SELVA VPPA ...
FORSKA HROPAÐ WÆRK - WÆRK
Halbertsma: "as in frosk, dy him fen greatskens opbliest"
OLB: Toads (POGA) blow up themselves, frogs (FORSKA) say "work, work".
Halbertsma (when did he write that?): a frog (FROSK) that blows up himself
How is this 'proof' that Halbertsma made the OLB?
### Posted 24 March 2012 - 09:39 AM
Van Gorp, on 24 March 2012 - 01:31 AM, said:
Lat-in as the opposite twisted letters of Ni-tal, which means a 'new language' in Dietsch (ny tael). But so far was clear i think :-)
For me the true meaning behind this view is that the Latin/Greek/All other Babylonian languages are indeed new languages, and intentionaly brought to live to bring people in chaos by means of disrupting the words in use from their original meaning leaving a language with meaningless words and thus meaningless talks in the truth sense about the history of mankind.
Mostly done in late middleages by unpious Monks paid by the wicked rulers of the people (even now, even now people just believe what they are being told or what is written down by authority)
...
The same as we are talking french when children are not considered to follow our conversation, the inventors of Latin knew more about it's deceitfull compositions than their fellowman.
And said f.e. to the people that Aristoteles was an ancient sage from Greece. While in fact it was a contemporary and pedantic entity to give ancient background for a new and twisted worldvision. Many people have a clue about the impossible 'intellectual' but materialistic inspired truths coming from 'it', few have a clue that the name is pronounced as 'Erwisthetalles' (beter) and that this really makes sense as it says 'He knew it all, better than the rest' -> so better live according our sage's views and all that follows :-)
...
Unless we attach again the guts to the words, meaning not talking about Liberty as Liber-ties (something where -tig books are being written) but the rebeluous spirit to break free from bondage (we have accomplished on material level, now on spiritual -> by means of the common 'sense', wat zin heeft het, the is-sens, dat maakt sense).
Very interesting! This material is hard to explain, but I think I see what you mean and I basically agree.
### Posted 24 March 2012 - 11:19 AM
Knul, on 24 March 2012 - 10:51 AM, said:
There is no better proof than 1:1.
So what is your proof?
Jean de La Fontaine (1621 - 1695) wrote a fable about a frog, that wanted to be as big as an ox, and blew up himself.
With your logic, I just 'proved' that La Fontaine wrote the OLB.
### Posted 24 March 2012 - 01:35 PM
Otharus, on 24 March 2012 - 09:09 AM, said:
OLB: Toads (POGA) blow up themselves, frogs (FORSKA) say "work, work".
In fact, the fragment is interesting, because it points to the solution of a mystery that 'official' etymology never explained:
The etymology of "pochen" (dutch for 'to bluff'), the origin of the word 'poker'.
[031/18]
POGA BLÉSATH HJARA SELVA VPPA.
ÀND HJA NE MÜGATH NAWET THÀN KRUPA.
FORSKA HROPATH WÀRK - WÀRK.
ÀND HJA NE DVATH NAWET AS HIPPA ÀND KLUCHT MÁKJA.
Oldfrisian dictionary Wiarda (1786):
Pogge - Frosch (frog)
(no frosk or forsk)
Oldfrisian dictionary Hettema (1832):
Pogge - kikvorsch (frog)
(no frosk or forsk)
Oldfrisian dictionary Richthofen (1840):
(no frosk, forsk or pogge)
Newfrisian dictionary (1896):
Froask, frosk - frog
Pod, podde - padde (toad)
Pogge, pôge - as podde, west-Dutch for frog
Westfrisian dictionary (1984):
Pog - 1) bladder or bag that precedes the birth of a calf. Compare 'voetpog' en 'waterpog'. 2) bag under the eyes; "wat kroigt ze toch lilleke pogge onder d'r ouge".
Voetpog - membrane filled with liquid and slime that brakes after the 'waterpog' at the birth of a calf.
Waterpog - membrane filled with water that precedes the 'voetpog' at the birth of a calf.
It seems as if the word "pog" is no longer used in the modern NW-European languages (maybe still in some dialects):
frog - english
kikker, kikvors - dutch
frosch - german
frosk - norwegian, icelandic
Frøer - danish
groda - swedish
froask, kikkert - newfrisian
toad - english
kröte - german
kört - icelandic
pad - dutch
padde - danish, norwegian
padda - swedish
podde - newfrisian
### Posted 24 March 2012 - 02:16 PM
Knul, on 24 March 2012 - 01:50 PM, said:
Nl. vorsch, old Eng. frosk, currently bastardised in frog, Sf. frósk, Lf. froásk ...
So Halbertsma knew the word from Stadfries (Sf) and Landfries (Lf).
Now you're contradicting yourself.
You have stated before that Halbertsma loved old-English and he obviously loved Frisian.
He did not think much of Dutch (Hollandic or Netherlandic).
In your quote, Halbertsma mentions varieties in language for "frog":
Old-english: frosk, bastardised into frog
City-Frisian: frósk
Land-Frisian: froásk
(not mentioned; German: frosch)
Dutch: vorsch
Note that (19th century) Dutch ('Netherlandic') is the only variety where R is placed after O!
Also note that the Oldfrisian dictionaries from 1786, 1832 and 1840 did not include "frosk" or "forsk".
Now look at the spelling in OLB: "FORSKA".
This spelling suggests that the Dutch spelling is more authentic than Old-english, German and (both city- and land-) Frisian.
This (using Knul's own 'logic') is proof against Halbertsma's supposed involvement in the supposed creation of the OLB.
### Posted 24 March 2012 - 02:38 PM
Knul, on 24 March 2012 - 02:14 PM, said:
The word might be related to boha
Could be, but the OLB spelling "BÁHÉI" does not suggest this.
POG = bag, bladder
POGA, POGGA = blow up, bluff (dutch: pochen), exaggerate
POHA, BOHA = exaggeration
Most probably related too: "pokken" (pox).
### Posted 24 March 2012 - 02:59 PM
Abramelin, on 24 March 2012 - 02:50 PM, said:
The OLB "POGA" is a frog.
So what would be the difference between POGA (in other fragment spelled as POGGA) and FORSKA? IMO it makes more sense that POGA means toads (padden) here.
### Posted 24 March 2012 - 06:26 PM
Knul, on 24 March 2012 - 05:31 PM, said:
Halbertsma wrote the OLB in DUTCH and then tranlated it into Oldfrisian using both Dutch and Frisian words and expresions.
Following your train of thoughts, I imagine Halbertsma translating his Dutch version into (a reconstruction of) Oldfrisian.
You have argued before that he was a Frisian nationalist who loved Old-english.
Now why would he spell FORSK (like Dutch 'vorsch') and not FROSK, as in Frisian and Old-english?
There are many more examples in the OLB where words are more similar to Dutch, when an obvious Frisian version was also available. Within your 'theory', this does not make sense at all.
### Posted 24 March 2012 - 06:36 PM
Knul, on 24 March 2012 - 05:31 PM, said:
That the Dutch spelling would be more authentic is purely nonsens.
I said that the OLB-spelling (FORSK) "suggests that the Dutch spelling is more authentic than Old-english, German and (both city- and land-) Frisian."
Halbertsma would not have wanted to suggest that!!!
### Posted 24 March 2012 - 07:51 PM
Abramelin, on 24 March 2012 - 07:37 PM, said:
The Old English "forsc" is almost exactly the same as the Dutch "vorsch". This is of course no proof of Halbertsma writing/composing the OLB, but it could have given a guy like him the idea that FORSK would be quite close to the original and oldest spelling.
The point is, that Halbertsma thought the Old-english spelling was "frosk".
From Knul's post:
Knul, on 24 March 2012 - 01:50 PM, said:
Dr. J.H. HALBERTSMA to Dr. L.A. te Winkel:
"Nl. vorsch, old Eng. frosk, currently bastardised into frog"
### Posted 24 March 2012 - 07:55 PM
Knul, on 24 March 2012 - 07:50 PM, said:
P.A.F. van Veen en N. van der Sijs (1997), Van Dale Etymologisch woordenboek:
vors* [amfibie] {vorsch(e), versch 1201-1250} met metathesis, net als oudengels forsc, vgl. oudhoogduits frosk (hoogduits Frosch), oudnoors froskr, verwant met engels froth [schuim], betekenis dus ‘het slijmige dier’.
So, why wouldn't Halbertsma use the Oldenglish variant ?
Halbertsma (1789 - 1869) did not have access to your 1997 dictionary.
He thought the correct Old-english spelling was "frosk", according to your very own quote.
### Posted 25 March 2012 - 05:22 PM
As we have noticed several times, Ottema made quite a few mistakes transcribing and translating the OLB.
In the following example, he left out a fragment, probably by mistake.
It could have been on purpose, as it is a good example of a fragment that the ruling elite of his time would not have liked, for obvious reasons.
Page 22, laws for kings and wars #8.
Original:
Transcription Ottema (1876):
Translation Ottema (1876):
Geen koning mag langer dan drie jaren koning blijven,
opdat hij niet bestendig moge worden.
Translation Sandbach (1876):
No king may be in office more than three years,
in order that the office may not be permanent.
Translation Raubenheimer (2011):
No king may remain king for longer than three years
lest he becomes entrenched.
New transcription:
ANNEN KÉNING NE MÉI NAVT NI LÔNGER AS THRÉ JÉR KÉNING BILÍWA.
TILTHJU HI NAVT BIKLÍWA NE MÉI VSA FRYDOM TO SKADANE.
Translation Jensma (2006):
Een koning mag niet langer dan drie jaar koning blijven,
omdat hij niet beklijven mag tot schade van onze vrijheid.
Translation of underlined part:
damaging our freedom
### Posted 26 March 2012 - 09:25 AM
The Puzzler, on 26 March 2012 - 02:05 AM, said:
http://en.wikipedia....basque_mythology
I'm fascinated by something I read on that Basque wiki-page:
Mythological creatures and characters [...]
Erge is an evil spirit that takes men's lives. [...]
In Dutch and (old-) Frisian, "erg" or "arg" (OLB: "ÀRG") means bad or evil.
"Erge" can literally be translated as "evil one".
### Posted 26 March 2012 - 10:49 PM
TÉJA - this verb, that appears three times in the OLB (see below) was translated with help of the context; [note added 3-9-2018: past perfect TÁGEN is also used; related forms added 10-9-2018: TJAN and (some or all of these:) ANTJAN, TJUCH(T), (BI)TJUGA, THJUGHA, TJUGUM, VRTJÛGAD, TJÛGANDE, TUCH(T), (VN)TUCHT(IGA), SIN.TÜGA etc., - thanks, Pierre Jakob!]
the word is NOT known in Dutch or (old-) Frisian, and as far as I know also not in English or German. [At second thought... the English verb "to tie" will be related!]
I suspect that the Spanish (!) "tejer" = to weave is the closest and most likely relative.
This word would also be related to the word "textile".
1. [040/19]
ALLE ELTE MINNISKA WERTHAT DRONGEN A BÀRN TO TÉJANDE
[Jensma p.151]
Alle gezonde mensen worden gedrongen om kinderen te verwekken
[Ottema p.59] note: transcription error "têlande"
Alle
[Sandbach p.59]
All
2. [073/03]
WI HÉDON VSA STÉNE BURCH.WAL MITH TWAM HORNUM OMTÉJEN ALTO THA SÉ
[Jensma p.217]
wij hadden onze stenen burchtwal met twee hoornen omtrokken tot aan de zee
[Ottema p.103]
wij hadden onze steenen burgtwal met twee hoornen omgebogen tot aan de zee
[Sandbach p.103]
we had built our stone city wall with two horns down to the sea
3. [148/24]
FON HJARA STORESTE TOGHTERA VMB THÉR BÍ BERN TO TÉJANDE
[Jensma p.367]
van hun sterkste dochters (om daarbij kinderen te telen)
[Ottema p.201]
van hunne grootste dochters, om bij deze kinderen te verwekken
[Sandbach p.201]
of their
But of course!!!
Dutch: "touw" = rope
Oldfrisian (Hettema dictionary, 1832):
"Tawa, taauje, bereiden, maken, touwen." (= prepare, make)
### Posted 27 March 2012 - 08:45 AM
Knul, on 27 March 2012 - 04:15 AM, said:
So two different words: tejen = geteeld ; om tejen = omtrokken.
No. Just one word with a variety.
TÉJA = touwen (very oldfashioned dutch) = maken (to make)
OM-TÉJA = om-touwen = om-maken (to make-around)
### Posted 27 March 2012 - 08:58 AM
Knul, on 27 March 2012 - 04:15 AM, said:
Hettema (Idioticon Frisicum, 1874)
This dictionary appeared 2 years after the first OLB-publication.
I bet he used the OLB as a source for these two entries, based on Ottema's translations.
### Posted 27 March 2012 - 09:53 AM
Abramelin, on 27 March 2012 - 09:43 AM, said:
I think the word you are looking for is "tuien" = to tether (vastsjorren).
"Tuien" might be related to "touwen", but its meaning "to tether" does not make sense in the 3 OLB-fragments.
### Posted 27 March 2012 - 10:16 AM
Abramelin, on 27 March 2012 - 09:58 AM, said:
http://www.etymologi...trefwoord/tuien
It looks like the Dutch touwen, tuien, tooien, the Spanish tejer and the English to tie are all related.
Weaving, attaching with rope(s), making, preparing, etc.
### Posted 27 March 2012 - 11:32 AM
Abramelin, on 27 March 2012 - 10:44 AM, said:
We still have a Dutch saying, "geboren en getogen" = born and raised/bred.
getogen = getooid = getouwd = gemaakt
(in the expression 'geboren en getogen' it means raised, not conceived, but to raise a child just means to make it into an adult)
Quote
ALLE ELTE MINNISKA WERTHAT DRONGEN A BÀRN TO TÉJANDE
Alle gezonde mensen worden gedrongen om kinderen op te voeden
All healthy people have the urge to raise kids.
-
FON HJARA STORESTE TOGHTERA VMB THÉR BÍ BERN TO TÉJANDE
Van haar sterkste dochters om daarbij kinderen op te voeden
Of her strongest daughters to raise kids with them
IMO 'to make kids' makes more sense. (What would urge you more, to make a child or to raise one?)
BTW 'STOR' still means big, large in Swedish.
They chose the largest women, because they wanted tall and strong sons.
Quote
WI HÉDON VSA STÉNE BURCH.WAL MITH TWAM HORNUM OMTÉJEN ALTO THA SÉ
We hadden onze stenen burchtwal met twee hoornen opgetrokken tot aan de zee
We had raised our stone city wall with two horns down to the sea
To raise a wall = to make a wall
### Posted 27 March 2012 - 05:31 PM
These varieties can be added on the right side:
τείνω (teino) - greek (origin of tendon and tension!)
to tow - english
tegne - danish, norwegian
ziehen, zeugen - german
tijgen - (oldfashioned) dutch (past tense: toog, getogen)
tiigje, tije, tsjen - frisian
Oldflemmish, -frisian, -dutch, -german:
tiën, thien, tijen, tia(n), tion, tien, tyen, tihen, tigen, ziohan, zihen
The number of varieties and meanings of this word indicate a very old age.
### Posted 27 March 2012 - 06:06 PM
Abramelin, on 27 March 2012 - 12:03 PM, said:
Yes, I made a mistake with STORESTE. It should be "STOERSTE" in Dutch or 'sturdiest' in English.
Sturdy also means 'robuust', 'fors', 'potig', and 'ferm'. I think 'sturdiest' is a better translation for STORESTE than just 'large'. It's also etymologically closer to the OLB word.
In Danish, Swedish, Norwegian and Icelandic, "stor" or "stór" means big, large.
In the following fragment it is used for a ship, so it can still mean 'big' as well as 'strong' or 'sturdy' (usually the same anyway), but just 'big' makes most sense IMO.
[075/11]
NÉI HAT WI IN TWILIF JÉR TID NÉN KRÉKA LÁNDAR TO ÁLMANLÁND SJÁN HÉDE
KÉMON THÉR THRJU SKÉPA SA SÍRLIK AS WI NÉN HÉDON
ÀND TO FARA NIMMER NÉDE SJAN.
VPPET STOROSTE THÉRA. WÉRE.N KÉNING THÉRA JHONHIS É.LANDUM.
Wiarda (1786)
Stor = stark, gross, ganz, viel
Hettema (1832)
Stor = stoer, sterk, groot, veel
Richthofen (1840)
Stor = gross
Anyway, I usually also like to stay as close to the original word as possible.
So no debate here, just a FYI.
### Posted 29 March 2012 - 09:27 AM
Knul, on 28 March 2012 - 01:37 PM, said:
ALDA FON DЄGUM - Ouden van Dagen (MS 102, r. 23),
which in your opinion is Oldfrisian,
but in my opinion modern Dutch.
If you don't agree please show me an Oldfrisian text for this.
In my opinion, the expression could be Oldfrisian.
It is obvious that the accepted sources we have, will not give a complete record of all old words and expressions.
The expression is actually known from Old-Greek "Παλαιός Ημερών", usually translated as "ancient of days", referring to God in the Aramaic tradition (reminds me of WR-ALDA: "over-old one"), but it just means "old of days" (Dutch: "oude van dagen", Oldfrisian "ALDA FON DÉGUM").
We may have gotten it from the Greeks, or vice versa.
### Posted 29 March 2012 - 09:53 AM
Knul, on 28 March 2012 - 10:02 AM, said:
I told you that it is known to be Oldfrisian and gave Hettema's Idioticon Frisicum as a source.
Yet you claim, that it is not in the dictionaries. Here is a next source: Koebler [...]
Hettema's Idioticon Frisicum is from 1874, and Köbler's Altfriesisches Wörterbuch is from 2003.
My point was (and is) that the word "TÉJA" was not to be found in any Oldfrisian dictionary, when OLB was supposed to have been concocted (that is, before 1867).
Surely, we can find words that are related (I am finding more already), but that is a different story.
My main question is this:
1) Is OLB merely based on knowledge and phantasies that were available in the mid-19th century,
or:
2) Does OLB contain information that can help our current knowledge about language (and history) evolve?
My answer:
1) No, it went way too much against the 19th C. paradigm
2) YES!
### Posted 29 March 2012 - 11:25 AM
OLB versions of "tawa", "touwen" (to make, create, prepare), only used in the context of making laws, rules, morals (ÉWA, SETMA):
[021/24]
HÍR FOLGATH THA ÉWA THÉR THÉR.UT TAVLIKT SEND
[025/07]
SAHWERSA THÉR ÉWA VRWROCHT WRDE. JEFA NÉJA SETMA TAVLIKT
[031/07]
THA ÉWA THÉR THÉRNÉI TAVLIKT SEND
[033/02]
IS THÉR ENG KWÁD DÉN HWÉRVR NÉN ÉWA TAVLIKT SEND
[098/31]
THÉR NE SEND NÉN GODE SETMA JEFTHA HJA MOTON THÉR NÉI TAVLIKT WÉSA
[99/08]
THA ÉWA THÉR HJU TAVLIKT HETH
### Posted 29 March 2012 - 11:34 AM
This is how Doctor Jensma (2006) explained "TAVLIKT" (p.113):
"van toeflikken, samenflikken = samenflansen, samenlappen; grappig bedoeld"
("from to-flick, flick-together = fudge, botch, patch, jumble; meant to be funny")
All three 19th C. Oldfrisian dictionaries; Wiarda (1786), Hettema (1832) and Richthofen (1840) had TAULIK or TAULIC (man-made, in context of laws).
### Posted 30 March 2012 - 12:17 PM
FRYA. FÀSTA. MÉDÉA. THJANJA. HELLÉNJA ÀND FÉLO ÔTHERA
~ another example of a discrepancy between 'official' etymology and that suggested by OLB ~
In the OLB, the following varieties of the word THJANJA (to serve) are found.
Dutch and English meaning as well as fragment numbers (see below) are added.
THJANJA - name (=> Diana?) [18]
THJANJA - dienen - to serve [1,2,8,10,11,15,19,22]
TO THJANJANDE - te dienende - serving, to serve [4]
THJANATH - (hij) dient - (he) serves [6,13]
THJANATH - gediend (wezen, hebben) - (to be, to have) served [12,14]
THJANJATH - gediend (worden) - (to be) served [21]
THJANADE - (hij) diende - (he) served [20]
THJANEST - dienst - service [7b]
THJANIST - dienst - service [7a]
THJANESTA - diensten - services [3,16]
THJANJAR - dienaars - servants [17]
THJANRA - dienaars - servants [5]
THJANSTERUM - diensters, dienaressen - female servants [9]
Oldfrisian dictionaries (pre-OLB)
Wiarda (1786)
tinia, tyena, thiania - to serve
thianst, thianest - service
thianster - witch (!)
Hettema (1832)
thiania, tjaenje - to serve
thiansta, tjaenst - service, servant
thianster, tjaonster - witch (!)
Richthofen (1840)
thiania, tienia - to serve
thianer, tiener - servant
thianost, thianest, thianst, tienst - service
(!) note that in OLB the spelling for witch is "THJONSTER", and no relation to "THJANJA" (to serve) is suggested.
[034/15]
AS THV THÀN NÉN THJONSTER NE BISTE
Varieties in modern languages
to serve (verb):
dienen - dutch, german
tsjinje - frisian
tjene - danish, norwegian
tjäna - swedish
þjóna, thjóna - icelandic
Old-English, -German, -Norse
The term thegn (or thane or thayn in Shakespearean English), from OE þegn, ðegn "servant, attendant, retainer", is commonly used to describe either an aristocratic retainer of a king or nobleman in Anglo-Saxon England, or as a class term, the majority of the aristocracy below the ranks of ealdormen and high-reeves. It is also the term for an early medieval Scandinavian class of retainers.
Etymology: Old English þeg(e)n "servant, attendant, retainer" is cognate with Old High German degan and Old Norse þegn ("thane, franklin, freeman, man").
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thegn
'Official' etymology of Diana
On the Tablets of Pylos a theonym δι(digamma)ια is supposed as referring to a deity precursor of Artemis. Modern scholars mostly accept the identification.
The ancient Latin writers Varro and Cicero considered the etymology of Dīāna as allied to that of dies and connected to the shine of the Moon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diana_(mythology)
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
1. [008/20]
FON HJARA SUSTERUM LÉTON HJA.RA THJANJA
2. [015/19]
FÁMNA THÉR VPPA ORA BURGUM AS MODER THJANJA
3. [016/09]
FAR THISSA THJANESTA SKILUN HJA LÉRA FRYA.S TEX
4. [017/06]
IS THÉR ÀMMAN KÉREN VMBE VPPA BURGUM TO THJANJANDE
5. [034/05]
JVWAR HÉROGA THJANRA WISA HEL.LÉNJA
6. [034/24]
HWÉRTO THJANATH THENE HVND
7.a/b [034/28]
HWAT THENE HVND IS INNA THJANIST THES SKÉP.HÀRDER.
BIN IK IN FRYA.S THJANEST
8. [057/26]
VMBE THA KÀNINGAR FON FINDA.S. FOLK TO THJANJA
9. [061/24]
THISSA MANGHÉRTNE WÉRON HJARA THJANSTERUM
10. [093/15]
SA SKOLDE HJRA BODA SINA WICHAR TO WÉI.WÍSER THJANJA
11. [095/29]
HWÉRTO SKOLDE HJA THJANJA
12. [100/29]
GÍRIGA DROCHTNE [...] THAM ÉRATH ÀND THJANATH WILLATH WÉSA
13. [107/24]
THET FJELD THJANATH TO KÀMP ÀND TO WÉDE
14. [110/13]
MÀNNISKA THÉR THJANATH HÉDE TO ROJAR
15. [121/15]
IK WIL BLÁT THÀT STV MY THJANJA SKOLSTE VMB LÁN
16. [127/05]
TO LÁNJA HIM TOFÁRA SINA THJANESTA
17. [130/07]
THA JOHNJAR SEND AFGODA THJANJAR
18. [132/26]
FRYA. FÀSTA. MÉDÉA. THJANJA. HELLÉNJA ÀND FÉLO ÔTHERA
19. [135/02]
ELLA MOSTE THJANJA VMBE THA FORSTA ÀND PRESTERA JETA RIKER ÀND WELDIGER TO MÁKJANE
20. [137/04]
ÀND FRYA.S.STJÛRAR THÉR AS SLÁV THJANADE
21. [204/29]
TO THA LESTA WÀRTH HJU THRVCH HJAM FOLGATH ÀND THJANJATH
22. [207/21]
THÀT STORA FOLK [...] MOS RA AS SLÁVONA THJANJA
To my own surprise, I am the first (as far as I know) who interprets Thjanja as Diana.
Checked: Ottema (1872/1876), Sandbach (1876), Wirth (1933), Overwijn (1941/1951), Jensma (2006), de Heer (2008), Raubenheimer (2011), Knul (2012)
Very good - a lot of interesting things here!
ReplyDeleteHans Olav