Posted 10 February 2012 - 10:33 AM
Knul, on 09 February 2012 - 06:40 PM, said:
The books for his library have initially been bought by his compagnon Stadermann in Amsterdam and were later advised by Ottema.
There is no proof for any contact between Over de Linden and Stadermann, other than in the year they were neighbors (1845).
### Posted 11 February 2012 - 08:50 AM
Knul, on 11 February 2012 - 01:23 AM, said:
They were not just neighbours, but also colleagues and friends.
I know they were neighbors in 1845 only, according to L.F. Over de Linden.
Three questions:
Do you know from when till when Stadermann worked for the Marine in Den Helder?
Do you have any indication that they were 'friends', other than the trip to Enkhuizen they would have made together in 1845?
Have you read the letters between H.A. Stadermann and A. Heyting (1917-1934)?
### Posted 12 February 2012 - 09:02 AM
Otharus, on 11 February 2012 - 08:50 AM, said:
Three questions:
Your answer was:
"Just read the reports of one of his colleagues and of Berk. s. http://rodinbook.nl/olbbrieven.html. ref: Voorgeschiedenis. Zie ook: http://www.dbnl.org/...801_01_0001.php"
From these links I conclude that:
1. No, you don't know the time frame in which Stadermann worked for the Royal Marine in Den Helder.
2. The only 'information' about the supposed friendship between Stadermann and Over de Linden is speculation by others.
3. No you have not read any letters from Stadermann's son.
### Posted 12 February 2012 - 06:25 PM
Letter from Cornelis Over de Linden to Dr. Ottema, dated Den Helder 11-6-1872 (translation, original at Tresoar, Ljouwert).
"Honorable and very learned Sir!
A request for revision, says W. de L. in Spectator magazine of 21 October 1871 # 42, the same I ask you, and all who reject the so-called 'RUN-SKRIFT' as of younger date.
In your translation I read: "Oh dear, never let the eyes of a monk gaze upon this script, they speak sweet words, but... etc."
From this fear of monks I dare conclude, that they had already captured many of our old manuscripts. I also dare believe dat the Over de Lindens have not been the only ones, who possessed the book of Adela Follistar. When I follow the history of the manuscript, I dare assume that the Romans, the Phoenicians, the Greeks and all Mediterranean peoples learned the letter-script from us.
Not copied from the geometric lines of the Jol, but from less neatly produced Frisian manuscripts.
In the times when I tortured myself trying to read the handwriting, someone said to me that they might be Phoenician letters. So I looked for a book about the Phoenician language and found one with the title: "Paläographische Studien über phönizische und punische Schrift - Herausgegeben von D. Wilhelm Gesenius. Mit 6 lithographirten tafelen. Leipzig 1835."
The letters in that book are very different, but many of them are similar to the STAND and the RUN-SKRIFT as presented in the manuscript. Many or most of the prints of tokens with letters, depict women's heads, that reminded me of the Frisian honorary Mothers. The author says that every Phoenician colony had its own letter-script. But I could not follow him, because he compared the letters with Hebrew ones, which I don't know.
If my notion is right, we have been the lettergivers of all Mediterranean peoples. As the Nordic peoples always have been - and still are - the real sea dogs, the French with all their elevated theories not excluded, they were also most in need of letters and ciphers.
That the monks, who have invented their own letter-script, stifled ours to make it unreadable, lies in their nature. But who knows how many Copies of the book of Adela's Folstar remain here and elsewhere with kings or in Rome. Now that more than a thousand years have passed, they may have introduced the walking script as capitals, because they are similar to our capitals.
If you are so weak as to reject the walking script, out of fear for some barkers, than it is as if you want to duel with the sheath, while passing the sword to them.
For in the manuscript it says: "When Fàsta was Mother of honor, she made the running or walking script out of it. The Witking, that is seaking Godfried... etc." So, if the runscript was added more recently, then the above fragment was also added, and then anything can have been added. So I keep protesting against the mutilation.
[...]
After affable greetings, also to your Niece,
Yours,
C. Over de Linden"
### Posted 13 February 2012 - 05:34 PM
Dr. Ottema to L.F. Over de Linden (translated from letter in Dutch, dated 17-3-1876, from Tresoar collection):
Dear Sir!
I will answer both your questions shortly.
First, where does the story (or statement) come from, that we (the Western peoples) would have borrowed our ciphers from the Arabs?
It is not a story, and not based on any historical fact, but a wild guess, that has been parroted by the gullible crowds for three centuries now. Much was written about that. When scholars asked the question, where our ciphers had originated, they tacitly assumed, that they had to come from abroad; because it was out of the question that the peoples of Middle and Western Europe had invented anything by themselves. Therefore one of them guessed that the Hebrews, another that the Phoenicians, and yet another that the Egyptians would be the inventors of our ciphers. Each argued his opinion with erudition. The ones who claimed it had been the Arabs were most successful, because the latter were known to use a decimal system. But one forgot, that if we had learned our ciphers from the Arabs, we would also have adopted the shape of those Arabic ciphers. And that's how this guess was accepted as a prevailing truth.
Concerning your other question, what proof there is for my statement, that the figures in the Alhambra decorations were derived from the Fryan script, I can only say this. There is no positive evidence, only a negative one. Namely, they could not have been derived from anything else.
Apparently they are not random phantasy shapes, but deliberate imitations of figures that one has seen somewhere. And where else can they have seen them than in the shapes of the western ciphers?
Who finds this statement somewhat bold, may answer the question differently, and show where else these figures were found.
It would please me to learn from you what rev. Grottendiek will reveal of his research. But always remember, that no-one can measure the spirit of the book, who does not completely understand the language, and can observe and consider all nuances in variety of language form, spelling, and style in all parts that are collected in the book.
With kind greetings
### Posted 13 February 2012 - 10:16 PM
(To Abramelin:) Compliments, you have been creative.
It nicely shows that the Alhambra version is more complex than the Jol version.
In evolution, complexity increases.
Therefore, if one has evolved out of the other, it makes more sense (IMO) that the Alhambra one was inspired by the Jol-one, and not the other way around.
(Yes, I have thought about the digital 8, out of which all numbers can be made as well, and which is less complex than the Jol, but not all letters can be made out of it, and it's not in a circle.)
### Posted 14 February 2012 - 08:51 AM
Knul, on 13 February 2012 - 09:30 PM, said:
Westland is called former, because it has been lost to the Gols and Franks. The Westland you have in mind stayed Frisian.
I agree with Knul.
In the fragment, the author explains how big their territory once was (before the bad times came).
If the Frisian Middelsea was meant (as Abe insists), Westergo and Westfriesland would not have been part of the original territory.
Westfriesland was not lost until the late 13th century AD.
### Posted 14 February 2012 - 09:07 AM
Abramelin, on 13 February 2012 - 10:49 PM, said:
These guys were at their best many ages ago, and it is because of them - and no one else - that we now know about the classics... and chemistry... and astronomy....and ancient Egypt, and mathematics ... and... and.. and.
I can imagine that before the big deforestation of Holland (Holt-, Holz-, Houtland), the Peoples here must have been artists with oak wood; buildings, ships, sculptures, etc. (some left from theMiddle Ages).
Nothing material left of those Golden (Wooden) ages BC.
### Posted 14 February 2012 - 10:41 AM
Knul said:
"The so called Arab ciphers came into use during the reign of Charles the Great (ca. 800).
Before the Roman ciphers were used."
We don't know when the so-called Arab ciphers came into use, only what is the oldest known (accepted) document that was saved in which they were used.
This is a common misunderstanding in this thread; that the oldest known source of something defines the age of that something.
Example: The oldest known mention of an "uilenbord" in the archives is from 1669. That does not mean they were invented in that year.
### Posted 14 February 2012 - 11:23 AM
Fragment of letter from Dr. Ottema to L.F. Over de Linden, dated 3-3-1877 (translation).
About a letter he had received from E. Leyte, editor of the German Correspondent in Baltimore, dated 6-2-1877.
The author informed me that in the wide mouth of the Amazon River, a group of islands is located, known as 'Inkas Islands', and inhabited to date by a human race with blue eyes and blond hair.
This information was of great value to me, because until now I had found nothing, that I could use to determine with some probability, a spot where Inka might have landed. I always expected that he would have ended up somewhere at the north-coast of Brasil, but now it has become clear to me, that the name of these islands keep a memory to Inka, and prove that he sailed and settled there with his fleet. The descendants of this colony of Frisians and Fins (specially the latter) will have moved land-inwards along the coasts of the Amazon River during many centuries, until they arrived at the westcoast of America, where they were found back in Chile and Peru, 3500 years later.
Isn't it remarkable that someone in Baltimore is motivated to send me a message that unexpectedly explains such a great mystery?
And isn't it remarkable as well that on those Inka Islands the Frisian type was preserved, and in Peru and Chile the Finnish type is found?
In a quick search, I could not find anything about those "Inka Islands".
If it's true, it would be quite interesting.
### Posted 14 February 2012 - 11:52 AM
Abramelin, on 14 February 2012 - 11:37 AM, said:
I have shown you in this thread an old source with a legend that says it were Frisians who first discovered South America and made a colony there (Chile).
But what about "Inka Islands" in the mouth of Amazon River, with a blue eyed tribe, that would have been known in the late 18-seventies?
### Posted 14 February 2012 - 11:58 AM
Abramelin, on 14 February 2012 - 11:39 AM, said:
The have discoverd remnants of wooden ships, houses and artifacts dating from many thousands of years ago. I have posted about those too.
That's only a fragment of what once existed.
99.99% or more will have been burnt or rotten away, specially in our cold and wet climate.
Even more so for our ancient writing materials (felt and pomp-leaves?).
### Posted 14 February 2012 - 12:08 PM
Abramelin, on 14 February 2012 - 12:03 PM, said:
And what about those citadels made of bricks and stone? These must have been all over Europe too?
Who says they were made of bricks and stone?
They tend to be recycled anyway.
Even in the last few hundred years there have been palaces and castles of which no trace can be found now.
### Posted 14 February 2012 - 12:28 PM
[109/14] Apol-lánja's writings
BOPPA THÉRE RÉNA TWISK THET BERCHTA. THÉR HÀV IK MÁR.SÁTA SJAN.
THA MÁR.SÁTA THÀT SEND MÀNNISKA THÉR INVPPA MÁRA HÉMA.
HJARA HUSA SEND VP PÀLUM BUWAD.
THÀT IS VRET WILDE KWIK ÀND BOSE MÀNNISKA.
THÉR SEND WOLVA BÁRA ÀND SWÁRTE GRISLIKA LÁWA.
ÀND HJA SEND THA SWETSAR JEFTHA PÀLENGGAR FON DA HÉINDE KRÉKA LANDER THÉRA KÀLTA FOLGAR ÀND THA VRWILDE RE. TWISKAR. ALLA GÍRICH NÉI RÁV ÀND BUT.
Fragment of letter from Dr. Ottema to L.F. Over de Linden, dated 16-3-1877 (translation).
But now for something of great importance. The black lions of Apollonia with the Marsaten have been found in Switzerland! They had always bothered me, although I for myself was confident, that they someday would show up; because the OLB does not lie!
Mr. J. Dirks namely informed the meeting that he had received a letter from Switzerland, from one of his prehistoric congress friends, about archaeological finds there. In a collection of bones of various species (including humans), the remains had been found of lions of a special species, that is now extinct. For us this is a colossal discovery!
### Posted 14 February 2012 - 01:02 PM
Abramelin, on 14 February 2012 - 12:40 PM, said:
?? How did they know those lions were black??
They didn't
Quote
And oh wow, Ottema finally found out there were indeed lions!
Footnote in his 1876 edition: "Leeuwen in Europa, Herodotus, VII, 125."
The archaeological find in Switzerland was still relevant.
In any case, those letters and fragments I posted recently may give us some insight into the minds of Ottema and the Over de Lindens.
It's the first time they are being published in English.
### Posted 14 February 2012 - 09:37 PM
Remarkable
As you make your bed, so must you lie in it
(Dutch: Wie zaait, zal oogsten)
1) Publication (1854) by J.G. Ottema about a publication (1854) from M. de Haan Hettema
Title:
Het meer Flevo en de Middelzee, of Blikken op de wartaal van Jhr. Mr. M. de Haan Hettema, in zijn geschrift: "Over de oudere geschiedenis van Friesland, met betrekking tot haren vroegeren en tegenwoordigen waterstaat"
(Lake Flevo and the Middle-Sea, or views upon the gibberish of M. de Haan Hettema, in his publication: "About the older history of Friesland, concerning her earlier and present waters")
2) Publication (1876) by J.B. Vinckers about the OLB (published 1872 and 1876 by J.G. Ottema)
Title:
De onechtheid van het Oera Linda-Bôk, aangetoond uit de wartaal waarin het is geschreven
(The inauthenticity of the OLB, indicated by the gibberish in which it was written)
### Posted 14 February 2012 - 10:04 PM
Fragment of letter from dr. Ottema to L.F. Over de Linden, dated 4-5-1877 (Tresoar collection; translated);
These days I realised something concerning Beckering Vinckers' accusation of a cunningly devised plan.
Your father did not have a plan to have the manuscript printed or made public. Under pressure of Verwijs, and when the content was still unknown to him, he had initially agreed, but when he got disappointed that Verwijs did not keep his promise [to translate the manuscript], your father believed he was no longer bound to the permission he had given. Please read our letters from early 1871 (I think), and you will see how he resisted with tooth and nail against my plan for publication. Someone who wants to mislead the world would not do that, he would have grabbed the opportunity to carry out his deception with both hands. Kuipers [the printer] and I almost had to force him, and harsh words were exchanged.
### Posted 14 February 2012 - 11:24 PM
Abramelin, on 14 February 2012 - 10:15 PM, said:
I really have not the faintest clue to what you are hinting at.
I underlined the relevant part.
Ottema in 1854 used the term "wartaal" (gibberish, nonsense) in the title of his his article about de Haan Hettema's publication.
22 Years later Vinckers used that term (also in the title of an article) to burn down Ottema's love of his life, the OLB.
I don't think Ottema will have been the first, but appearantly, 19th century scholars used harsh terms to 'critisize' each others publications.
### Posted 14 February 2012 - 11:33 PM
Letter from dr. Ottema to L.F. Over de Linden, dated 19-5-1877 (Tresoar collection; translated);
Dear Sir!
The publication of your defence was well received. Whoever I asked thought the booklet was well written and had read it with pleasure. I sent a copy to Dr. Vitringa, trusting that he will mention it in the Deventer Newspaper, just like he discussed Beckering Vinckers' brochure.
As always busy researching, rethinking and collecting, I have elaborated a comment these days, that I will explain to you. Concerning the manuscript it is important, specially because Suffridus Petrus, de Scriptoribus Frisiae mentions in his introduction, that Friso left several writings, one of them a travel diary and biography; that he had written them in the Frisian language and with Greek characters, and that his successors wrote just like that, until the times that the Roman script became current in Germania.
He did not mention how or where he had learned about that (as was not his habit), but he can not have sucked that out of his thumb.
Something must have come to his knowledge of Frisian notes, from the times in which the Ovira Lindas wrote, and that travel diary (about the journey from India to Friesland) may be related to
Ljudgert's diary.
Informations like this from Suffridus used to be considered as fabulations, but among those fabulations there may turn out to be more truth than was presumed. It is also acknowledged that Suffridus Petrus never lied, but that he would have copied from earlier sources.
Recieve this letter in good health and be friendly greeted.
P.S. I may have an immodest request: can I keep the copy of Volney, as a souvenir to your father?
### Posted 14 February 2012 - 11:46 PM
Abramelin, on 14 February 2012 - 11:38 PM, said:
You forgot this Suffridus Petrus was also known for his limitless imagination?
On the contrary, he was known to never lie, but some believe he copied fabulations.
I have a different feeling about this, but would indeed like to read a good translation of SP's work, before I have a judgement.
### Posted 16 February 2012 - 10:56 AM
That website vikinginfrance.com is surely interesting.
So the name Askar/ Ascon was still in use in the 9th century, I'm not that surprised.
Nice to see another alternative historian challenge the historical establishment with good arguments.
### Posted 16 February 2012 - 06:38 PM
### Posted 16 February 2012 - 06:53 PM
Aphrodite is being surveyed by Paris, while Athena (the leftmost figure) and Hera stand by. El Juicio de Paris by Enrique Simonet, ca. 1904
### Posted 16 February 2012 - 07:05 PM
Urteil des Paris/ The Judgment of Paris
painting by Anton Raphael Mengs,
now in the Eremitage, St. Petersburg.
Oil on canvas, 226 x 295 cm.
Paris is awarding the apple to Aphrodite, while Athena makes a face.
### Posted 18 February 2012 - 09:06 AM
Abramelin, on 16 February 2012 - 10:47 PM, said:
I really hope this thread never ends.
OK, sometimes we are not serious and fooling around a bit, but next day we 'sharpen our knives' and are back in business.
I can truelly honestly - and whatever adverb I should add to show my appreciation - say this: this gigantic thread has become something I really love.
### Posted 18 February 2012 - 09:39 AM
Abramelin, on 16 February 2012 - 11:19 PM, said:
I must be a descendant of those OLB guys who pronounced "Aldland" as "Atland", LOL.
That would be a thing from people living in The Hague.
New-Frisian also has the silent "l" in words like âld, kâld, sâlt, hold, silst, wolst.
Similarly a silent "f" in ôfsmite, "h" in hja, "r" in swart, "t" in kastke, "d" in wurdst.
(Source: Basiscursus Frysk, Afûk)
### Posted 18 February 2012 - 09:13 PM
Abramelin, on 18 February 2012 - 06:58 PM, said:
"Fin" appears to have been at one time a not uncommon name, whatever its etymology and that of "Fian" may be. [...] If Fin of the Fians, therefore, was a typical Fian, they were little people.
Interesting.
Fian = vijand (enemy)
Oudnederlands Woordenboek:
fīunt
Woordsoort: znw., m.
Modern lemma: VIJAND
Oudste attestatie: 901-1000
Frequentie: totaal: 26, appellatieven: 26
Etymologie: Cognaten: Oudfries fiānd, fiūnd.
Morfologie: ongeleed. Oorspronkelijk het tegenwoordig deelwoord van het ww. dat overeenkomt met Ohd. fīēn, Got. fijan 'haten', dat in het Ndl. niet meer bekend is.
http://gtb.inl.nl/iWDB/search?actie=article&wdb=ONW&id=ID3660&lemmodern=vijand
### Posted 18 February 2012 - 09:35 PM
Van Gorp, on 18 February 2012 - 07:16 AM, said:
Menapii -> Me-Na-By -> Mee Nabij -> onze buren die met ons zijn -> Allied Neighbours (Doornik region)
Chauci -> Ga-Houck -> Hoekig gaan, binnenvallen -> Tsjokken (to shock, see Choques in Frans Vlaanderen) -> to be shocked
And to make the movie complete we have
Germani -> Geer-mannen -> Samenkomen (vergaren, vergaderen, guerre)
Alemani -> Hale-mannen -> Allemant is a village in Frans Vlaanderen
Gaulen -> Ga-Halen -> We gaan het halen, wat ze ons hebben afgepakt!
Thank you VG, good to see you're busy with some older pages of the thread.
OLB provides an etymology for GERMANI and ALEMANI, I wonder if CHAUCI can be related to this fragment:
"MEN KAVCH IS ÁK WAN FRYAS ÀND MOT KÁP WÉSA" (p.146).
Gaules are called GOLA in OLB, but the meaning is not clear.
It is suggested that was the name of the sent priests from Sion. (p.60).
### Posted 18 February 2012 - 09:52 PM
Abramelin, on 18 February 2012 - 11:22 AM, said:
And then there are those 2 letters, -W- and -GS- , that are left out of the Yule wheel table on page 46 of the manuscript.
Although usually written as if it is one letter, I think W was officially seen as double V. COdL also explains this in one of his diaries (things he had learnt from his father, appearantly), and in
English the letter is also called double-U.
Why GS (or Gz) is missing, I don't know. Maybe the letter was 'modern' and not official.
### Posted 18 February 2012 - 09:59 PM
Abramelin, on 18 February 2012 - 03:25 PM, said:
I have been very busy with ancient North-Frisian legends I found a 19th century online account of. It was copied with OCR (Optical Character Reading) and thus contained a multitude of errors.
The legend (or the interpretation thereof) talks about what can only be Three Goddesses (but no names), a supreme spirit called The Old One, or "Uald", and some 'lost race'.
This surely sounds interesting, but what is said about the source of this info?
### Posted 19 February 2012 - 11:16 AM
Otharus, on 18 February 2012 - 09:35 PM, said:
Gaules are called GOLA in OLB, but the meaning is not clear.
It is suggested that was the name of the sent priests from Sion. (p.60).
GOLA, Sidon priests (OLB) Golem (Jewish folklore)
In Jewish folklore, a golem (ɡoʊləm/ goh-ləm; Hebrew: גולם) is an animated anthropomorphic being, created entirely from inanimate matter. The word was used to mean an amorphous, unformed material in Psalms and medieval writing. [...] The word golem occurs once in the Bible in Psalm 139:16, which uses the word גלמי, meaning "my unshaped form". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golem
Dutch Wiki (translated):
"Golem (Jewish legend)" was an anthropomorphic figure made of clay and animated by a rabbi [priest].
The word golem is probably derived from the Hebrew word 'gelem'(גלם), which means raw material.
OLB, translation Sandbach p.139:
"Among Finda's people there are false teachers, who, by their over-inventiveness, have become so wicked that they make themselves and their adherents believe that they are the best part of Wr-alda, that their spirit is the best part of Wr-alda's spirit, and that Wr-alda can only think by the help of their brains. That every creature is a part of Wr-alda's eternal being, that they have stolen from us; but their false reasoning and ungovernable pride have brought them on the road to ruin. If their spirit was Wr-alda's spirit, then Wr-alda would be very stupid, instead of being sensible and wise; for their spirit labours to create beautiful statues, which they afterwards worship."
### Posted 19 February 2012 - 12:33 PM
Abramelin, on 19 February 2012 - 12:29 PM, said:
The word "GOLA" dates from about the 6th century BC, while "GOLEM" is from medieval times, but anyway, centuries more recent then GOLA.
The oldest sources for the word "golem" may be from medieval times, but the folklore may have been much older. Anyway, a relationship with "GOLA" (as used in OLB) makes sense.
### Alewyn Raubenheimer posted 19 February 2012 - 01:36 PM
Otharus, on 18 February 2012 - 09:35 PM, said:
Gaules are called GOLA in OLB, but the meaning is not clear.
It is suggested that was the name of the sent priests from Sion. (p.60).
Some thoughts on the Gola from Sidon in Phoenicia:
OLB: The book of Adela’s followers (Chapter 25):
The Gola, as the missionary priests from Sidon were called, had noticed that the land there (Southern France) was sparsely populated and far from the Mother. In order to make themselves look good, they had themselves called in our language “truth devotees” (trowe widena); but they had better have been called “truth avoiders” (trowe wendena) or in short, “Triuwenden,” as our seafaring people afterwards called them.
Survivors of the Great Tsunami (Second Edition), Chapter 3, page 127:
The "Gola" called themselves "Trowe Widena" or "Treow-Wits" (Adherents or knowers of the Truth). The Frisians did not trust them at all and nicknamed them "Trowe Wendena" (truth avoiders) or "Truiwenden" in short.
The pagan religions from the East now had the Fryan Federation in a pincher with the Magy and his Magyarar priests in the north and north-east and the Treowit priests with their Gola missionaries in the south and west. The "Gola" later become known as the "Gauls" and the name "Treowits" evolved into "Druids" – the mysterious leaders in ancient Gaul that destroyed Fryan monotheism and held sway over the people in Gallic religion.
(Druids: From Treow+Wit, literally meaning Knower of the truth.
See: Treow (Old English, Anglo Saxon), Triuwi (Old Frisian) = Truth, and
Wit (Old English and Old Frisian) = Knowledge, understanding)
The Golan Heights, bordered by present-day Israel, Syria, Lebanon and Jordan, sounds suspiciously as though it may have been the origin of the ancient Gola priests (the Gola from Golan?) in nearby Sydon. "Golan" means "Captive" in Hebrew. The refuge town Golan is mentioned in the Bible in Deuteronomy 4:41-43 (RSV). If this supposition is correct, it would mean that the ancient Gauls had ties with the Golan Heights, which was annexed by Israel in 1981.
### Posted 19 February 2012 - 06:18 PM
Work in progress
JRTHA - OLB
earth - english
aarde - dutch
erde - german
ierde - frisian
jord - danish, swedish, norwegian
jörð - icelandic
JRTHA - OLB
erz - german
erts - dutch, frisian
ore - english
or - french
oro - italian, spanish
ouro - portuguese
aurum - latin
gold - english
goud - dutch, frisian
guld - danish, swedish
gull - norwegian, icelandic
GOLD - OLB
gelem (גלם) - (raw material) hebrew
GÉL - OLB
gult - icelandic
gul - danish, swedish, norwegian
geel - dutch
gelb - german
yellow - english
giallo - italian
giel - frisian
gol - frisian
gul - dutch
generous - english
geld - dutch, german (dutch pre-euro currency was "gulden")
jild - frisian
money - english
penge - danish
pengar - swedish
penger - norwegian
peningar - icelandic
monnaie/ argent - french
monnaie/ argent - french
penningen/ munten - dutch
münzen - german
mønter - danish
mynt - icelandic, swedish
mynter - norwegian
coins - english
argent - french
argento - italian
argentum - latin
argentino - spanish
silver - english, swedish
zilver - dutch
silber - german
sølv - danish, norwegian
silfur - icelandic
SULVER/ SILVER - OLB
sulver - frisian
zulver - westfrisian dialect
Gaul - english
Gaule - french
Gallia - latin, norwegian
Gallía - icelandic
Gallië - dutch
Gallien - german, danish, swedish
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Golan-mountains: ore- or gold-mining?
Golem/ golum: anthropomorph statue, idol (religious), made of (precious) raw material (gelem) or gold?
GOLA (OLB): priests from Sídon (near Golan-mountains) who introduced idol-worship in (nowaday) France?
Gauls, originally followers of the GOLA, later people from Gaul (Latin: Gallia).
Gollum (Tolkien)
### Posted 22 February 2012 - 05:03 PM
Criticism of religions in OLB
Worship of "BYLDON" (statues or images) - fragment 1 of 14
==>> see seperate post for all 14 fragments.
### Posted 23 February 2012 - 08:43 AM
Otharus, on 22 February 2012 - 05:03 PM, said:
Sandbach p.55
Comparing the translation of Sandbach (1876) to that of Raubenheimer (2011; 2nd edition, based on Sandbach), it can be concluded that Raubenheimer's version indeed seems to be an improvement.
However, in the following example, an important detail was missed, namely, that the Greek priests did not only erect statues of Minerva on their altars, but also that they sold statues of Minerva to the people; they commercialised her popularity!
Original fragment:
HJRA BYLDNESE STÀLDON HJA VPPA HJARA ÀLTÀRUM
JEFTHA HJA VRSELLADE.T ANDA DVMA MÀNNISKA.
Here's in italic Sandbach's and in normal script Raubenheimer's version:
one would have thought that they would have called all the people together
to drive us out of the land;
but no, in place of abusing her they went all about
from theheathenish [near] Krekaland to the Alps, proclaiming
Now everyone would think that they would have called everywhere on the people
to drive us all out of the land.
(But) no, instead of defaming her, they went everywhere,
also to Heinde Krekaland (Italy) right up to the Alps, proclaiming
that it had pleased the Almighty God
to send hisclever [wise] daughter Min-erva, surnamed Nyhellenia,
over the sea in a cloud to give people good counsel,
and that all who listened to her should become rich and happy,
and in the end governors of all the kingdoms of the earth.
that it had pleased the highest god
to send his wise daughter Minerva, surnamed Nyhellenia,
amongst the people from over the sea on a cloud to give people good counsel,
and that all who listened to her should become rich and happy,
and in the end masters of all the kingdoms of the earth.
They erected statues to her on all their altars,
they announced and [or] sold [them] to the simple [dumb] people
[they announced] advice that she had never given,
and related miracles
that she had never performed.
They erected statues of her on their altars
to beguile the stupid people.
They attributed all kinds of advice to her that she had never given,
and told of miracles
that she had never performed.
They cunningly made themselves masters of our laws and customs,
and by craft and subtlety were able to explain and spread them around.
By cunning they made themselves masters of our laws and customs
and by fallacies they wished to explain everything and expand thereon.
They appointed priestesses under their own care,
who were apparently under the protection of Festa, our firstEeremoeder [Mother of Honour],
to watch over the holy lamp;
They appointed matrons under their own authority,
who were ostensibly under the authority of Fasta, our first Honorary Mother,
to watch over the sacred lamp.
but that lamp they lit themselves,
and instead of imbuing the priestesses with wisdom,
and then sending them
to watch the sick
and educate the young,
they made them stupid and ignorant,
and never allowed them to come out.
That lamp, however, they lit themselves
and instead of imbuing the priestesses with wisdom,
and then sending them
amongst the people to nurse the sick
and educate the young,
they made them stupid and ignorant,
and never allowed them to come out.
They were employed as advisers,
but the advice which seemed to come from them
was but the repetition of the behests of the priests.
They were also employed as advisers,
but they only pretended that the advice came from their mouths;
they were nothing more than the mouth pieces through which the priests announced their desires.
### Posted 23 February 2012 - 02:30 PM
Abramelin, on 23 February 2012 - 02:08 PM, said:
"I the LORD thy God am a jealous God" (King James Bible, Exodus 20:4,5).
"I am the LORD: that is my name" —Isaiah 42:8
Interestingly, nowhere in the OLB is it suggested that Wralda would speak to people in any way, it is not even suggested Wralda is anything humanlike.
It is typical for the sort of priests that were so much hated by the OLB-Fryans, to suggest they knew what "God" would think or say.
According to the OLB, Wralda is all (the whole), and humans are only a part of it.
### Posted 23 February 2012 - 02:53 PM
Abramelin, on 23 February 2012 - 02:39 PM, said:
Btw, these Fryans did indeed suggest they 'knew' what Wralda wanted and desired; it's all over the OLB.
You mean things like:
[012/10] Tex Frya's
5. FJUWER THINGA SEND TO JVWE NOT JÉVEN. MITH NÁMA. LÔFT. WÉTER. LÁND ÀND FJUR.
MEN WR.ALDA WIL THÉR ALLÉNA BÍSITTAR OF WÉSA.
It's merely suggested that Wralda controls the elements (air, water, land, fire).
Nothing like "I am your god, you have to serve and obey me."
Or can you give an example of what you mean?
### Posted 23 February 2012 - 06:03 PM
Abramelin, on 23 February 2012 - 02:58 PM, said:
I don't mean to say Wralda speaks anywhere, only that people assume that Wralda approves of this or doesn't appove of that, or that something is not according to the will of Wralda... as though they know what Wralda wants and so on.
Here's two OLB-fragments about Wralda.
The first initially did not make sense to me, and I didn't like it,
until I realised that those 'books' have to be ment metaphorically.
The second fragment makes a lot of sense and is one of my favorite fragments.
I think it pretty much sums up how the Fryans related themselves to Wralda.
1) From: Form-lére (Apol-lánja) p.[099/07]
WR.ALDA IS THJU WISHÉD
ÀND THA ÉWA THÉR HJU TAVLIKT HETH.
SEND THA BOKA WÉRUT WY LÉRA MÜGE.
ÀND THÉR NIS NÉNE WISHÉD TO FINDANDE
NER TO GARJANDE BUTA THAM.
2) From: Other part of Form-lér (Apol-lánja) p.[103/05]
WY FRYA.S BERN SEND FORSKINSLA THRVCH WR.ALDA.S LÉVA.
~
BY T.ANFANG MIN ÀND BLÁT.
THACH IMMER WÀRTHANDE ÀND NÁKANDE TO FVLKVMENLIKHÉD.
SVNDER Á SA GOD TO WRDA AS WR.ALDA SELVA.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~
VSA GÁST NIS NAVT WR.ALDAS GÁST.
HI IS THÉRFON ALLÉNA EN AFSKINSLE.
~
THA WR.ALDA VS SKOP HETH ER VS IN THRVCH SINE WISHÉD.
BRYN. SINTÚGA. HÜGJA ÀND FÉLO GODA AINSKIPA LÉNAD.
HÍRMÉI MUGON WY SINA SKEPSELA ÀND SIN ÉWA BITRACHTA.
THÉROF MÜGON WY LÉRA ÀND THÉRVR MÜGON WY RÉDA.
ELLA ÀND ALLÉNA TO VS AIN HELD.
HÉDE WR.ALDA VS NÉNE SINNA JÉVEN
SA NE SKOLDE WY NARNE OF NÉTA
ÀND WY SKOLDE JETA REDDALASER AS EN SÉ.KWALE WÉSA.
THÉR FORTH DRYVEN WÀRTH.
THRVCH EBBE ÀND THRVCH FLOD.
### Posted 26 February 2012 - 08:12 AM
Abramelin, on 25 February 2012 - 11:51 PM, said:
I will bet there are Germans, Dutch, Scots, Brits, South Africans, Americans, and even Chinese who know what I am hinting at.
Let's be more specific, as the theological aspect of the dossier is actually interesting.
Jensma wrote his thesis for the theological faculty, and 3 'suspects' (not IMO) had studied theology: Haverschmidt, Verwijs and Halberstsma.
OLB was known in Germany as 'Himmler's Bible'.
People have suggested it was written to challenge the authority of the Bible, or to parody a 19th C. religious conflict.
So, what in your opinion are the most 'dangerous' fragments of the OLB?
### Posted 26 February 2012 - 02:40 PM
The Swedish word for "queen" - "drottning" - is related to the Oldfrisian word "drochten".
http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drottning
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Druhtinaz
http://gtb.inl.nl/iW...modern=drochten
http://gtb.inl.nl/iW...lemmodern=drost ("drochsate")
In OLB, DROCHTNE or DROCHTEN means (false) gods or idols, but it is also used for Wralda (once, I think).
Our "gedrocht" (creature) and "bedrog" (fraud) may be derived from it as well, but it would be etymological 'cousins' (not 'ancestors') of drost (Swedish: "drots") and drottning (queen).
### Posted 26 February 2012 - 05:28 PM
Abramelin, on 26 February 2012 - 04:04 PM, said:
Well, this Meijer said we should not confuse these words, and that is what you are doing now it seems. The word that means lord/queen is not related to the word that means monstrosity/deceite.
No, I (initially) said nothing about gedrocht/ bedrog (but it's possible that they're related; I don't take 'official' etymologists too seriously).
In Oldfrisian, 'Drochten', (also) meant lord or god, as you could have seen in the links I added.
Knul, on 09 February 2012 - 06:40 PM, said:
The books for his library have initially been bought by his compagnon Stadermann in Amsterdam and were later advised by Ottema.
There is no proof for any contact between Over de Linden and Stadermann, other than in the year they were neighbors (1845).
### Posted 11 February 2012 - 08:50 AM
Knul, on 11 February 2012 - 01:23 AM, said:
They were not just neighbours, but also colleagues and friends.
I know they were neighbors in 1845 only, according to L.F. Over de Linden.
Three questions:
Do you know from when till when Stadermann worked for the Marine in Den Helder?
Do you have any indication that they were 'friends', other than the trip to Enkhuizen they would have made together in 1845?
Have you read the letters between H.A. Stadermann and A. Heyting (1917-1934)?
### Posted 12 February 2012 - 09:02 AM
Otharus, on 11 February 2012 - 08:50 AM, said:
Three questions:
Your answer was:
"Just read the reports of one of his colleagues and of Berk. s. http://rodinbook.nl/olbbrieven.html. ref: Voorgeschiedenis. Zie ook: http://www.dbnl.org/...801_01_0001.php"
From these links I conclude that:
1. No, you don't know the time frame in which Stadermann worked for the Royal Marine in Den Helder.
2. The only 'information' about the supposed friendship between Stadermann and Over de Linden is speculation by others.
3. No you have not read any letters from Stadermann's son.
### Posted 12 February 2012 - 06:25 PM
Letter from Cornelis Over de Linden to Dr. Ottema, dated Den Helder 11-6-1872 (translation, original at Tresoar, Ljouwert).
"Honorable and very learned Sir!
A request for revision, says W. de L. in Spectator magazine of 21 October 1871 # 42, the same I ask you, and all who reject the so-called 'RUN-SKRIFT' as of younger date.
In your translation I read: "Oh dear, never let the eyes of a monk gaze upon this script, they speak sweet words, but... etc."
From this fear of monks I dare conclude, that they had already captured many of our old manuscripts. I also dare believe dat the Over de Lindens have not been the only ones, who possessed the book of Adela Follistar. When I follow the history of the manuscript, I dare assume that the Romans, the Phoenicians, the Greeks and all Mediterranean peoples learned the letter-script from us.
Not copied from the geometric lines of the Jol, but from less neatly produced Frisian manuscripts.
In the times when I tortured myself trying to read the handwriting, someone said to me that they might be Phoenician letters. So I looked for a book about the Phoenician language and found one with the title: "Paläographische Studien über phönizische und punische Schrift - Herausgegeben von D. Wilhelm Gesenius. Mit 6 lithographirten tafelen. Leipzig 1835."
The letters in that book are very different, but many of them are similar to the STAND and the RUN-SKRIFT as presented in the manuscript. Many or most of the prints of tokens with letters, depict women's heads, that reminded me of the Frisian honorary Mothers. The author says that every Phoenician colony had its own letter-script. But I could not follow him, because he compared the letters with Hebrew ones, which I don't know.
If my notion is right, we have been the lettergivers of all Mediterranean peoples. As the Nordic peoples always have been - and still are - the real sea dogs, the French with all their elevated theories not excluded, they were also most in need of letters and ciphers.
That the monks, who have invented their own letter-script, stifled ours to make it unreadable, lies in their nature. But who knows how many Copies of the book of Adela's Folstar remain here and elsewhere with kings or in Rome. Now that more than a thousand years have passed, they may have introduced the walking script as capitals, because they are similar to our capitals.
If you are so weak as to reject the walking script, out of fear for some barkers, than it is as if you want to duel with the sheath, while passing the sword to them.
For in the manuscript it says: "When Fàsta was Mother of honor, she made the running or walking script out of it. The Witking, that is seaking Godfried... etc." So, if the runscript was added more recently, then the above fragment was also added, and then anything can have been added. So I keep protesting against the mutilation.
[...]
After affable greetings, also to your Niece,
Yours,
C. Over de Linden"
### Posted 13 February 2012 - 05:34 PM
Dr. Ottema to L.F. Over de Linden (translated from letter in Dutch, dated 17-3-1876, from Tresoar collection):
Dear Sir!
I will answer both your questions shortly.
First, where does the story (or statement) come from, that we (the Western peoples) would have borrowed our ciphers from the Arabs?
It is not a story, and not based on any historical fact, but a wild guess, that has been parroted by the gullible crowds for three centuries now. Much was written about that. When scholars asked the question, where our ciphers had originated, they tacitly assumed, that they had to come from abroad; because it was out of the question that the peoples of Middle and Western Europe had invented anything by themselves. Therefore one of them guessed that the Hebrews, another that the Phoenicians, and yet another that the Egyptians would be the inventors of our ciphers. Each argued his opinion with erudition. The ones who claimed it had been the Arabs were most successful, because the latter were known to use a decimal system. But one forgot, that if we had learned our ciphers from the Arabs, we would also have adopted the shape of those Arabic ciphers. And that's how this guess was accepted as a prevailing truth.
Concerning your other question, what proof there is for my statement, that the figures in the Alhambra decorations were derived from the Fryan script, I can only say this. There is no positive evidence, only a negative one. Namely, they could not have been derived from anything else.
Apparently they are not random phantasy shapes, but deliberate imitations of figures that one has seen somewhere. And where else can they have seen them than in the shapes of the western ciphers?
Who finds this statement somewhat bold, may answer the question differently, and show where else these figures were found.
It would please me to learn from you what rev. Grottendiek will reveal of his research. But always remember, that no-one can measure the spirit of the book, who does not completely understand the language, and can observe and consider all nuances in variety of language form, spelling, and style in all parts that are collected in the book.
With kind greetings
### Posted 13 February 2012 - 10:16 PM
(To Abramelin:) Compliments, you have been creative.
It nicely shows that the Alhambra version is more complex than the Jol version.
In evolution, complexity increases.
Therefore, if one has evolved out of the other, it makes more sense (IMO) that the Alhambra one was inspired by the Jol-one, and not the other way around.
(Yes, I have thought about the digital 8, out of which all numbers can be made as well, and which is less complex than the Jol, but not all letters can be made out of it, and it's not in a circle.)
### Posted 14 February 2012 - 08:51 AM
Knul, on 13 February 2012 - 09:30 PM, said:
Westland is called former, because it has been lost to the Gols and Franks. The Westland you have in mind stayed Frisian.
I agree with Knul.
In the fragment, the author explains how big their territory once was (before the bad times came).
If the Frisian Middelsea was meant (as Abe insists), Westergo and Westfriesland would not have been part of the original territory.
Westfriesland was not lost until the late 13th century AD.
### Posted 14 February 2012 - 09:07 AM
Abramelin, on 13 February 2012 - 10:49 PM, said:
These guys were at their best many ages ago, and it is because of them - and no one else - that we now know about the classics... and chemistry... and astronomy....and ancient Egypt, and mathematics ... and... and.. and.
I can imagine that before the big deforestation of Holland (Holt-, Holz-, Houtland), the Peoples here must have been artists with oak wood; buildings, ships, sculptures, etc. (some left from theMiddle Ages).
Nothing material left of those Golden (Wooden) ages BC.
### Posted 14 February 2012 - 10:41 AM
Knul said:
"The so called Arab ciphers came into use during the reign of Charles the Great (ca. 800).
Before the Roman ciphers were used."
We don't know when the so-called Arab ciphers came into use, only what is the oldest known (accepted) document that was saved in which they were used.
This is a common misunderstanding in this thread; that the oldest known source of something defines the age of that something.
Example: The oldest known mention of an "uilenbord" in the archives is from 1669. That does not mean they were invented in that year.
### Posted 14 February 2012 - 11:23 AM
Fragment of letter from Dr. Ottema to L.F. Over de Linden, dated 3-3-1877 (translation).
About a letter he had received from E. Leyte, editor of the German Correspondent in Baltimore, dated 6-2-1877.
The author informed me that in the wide mouth of the Amazon River, a group of islands is located, known as 'Inkas Islands', and inhabited to date by a human race with blue eyes and blond hair.
This information was of great value to me, because until now I had found nothing, that I could use to determine with some probability, a spot where Inka might have landed. I always expected that he would have ended up somewhere at the north-coast of Brasil, but now it has become clear to me, that the name of these islands keep a memory to Inka, and prove that he sailed and settled there with his fleet. The descendants of this colony of Frisians and Fins (specially the latter) will have moved land-inwards along the coasts of the Amazon River during many centuries, until they arrived at the westcoast of America, where they were found back in Chile and Peru, 3500 years later.
Isn't it remarkable that someone in Baltimore is motivated to send me a message that unexpectedly explains such a great mystery?
And isn't it remarkable as well that on those Inka Islands the Frisian type was preserved, and in Peru and Chile the Finnish type is found?
In a quick search, I could not find anything about those "Inka Islands".
If it's true, it would be quite interesting.
### Posted 14 February 2012 - 11:52 AM
Abramelin, on 14 February 2012 - 11:37 AM, said:
I have shown you in this thread an old source with a legend that says it were Frisians who first discovered South America and made a colony there (Chile).
But what about "Inka Islands" in the mouth of Amazon River, with a blue eyed tribe, that would have been known in the late 18-seventies?
### Posted 14 February 2012 - 11:58 AM
Abramelin, on 14 February 2012 - 11:39 AM, said:
The have discoverd remnants of wooden ships, houses and artifacts dating from many thousands of years ago. I have posted about those too.
That's only a fragment of what once existed.
99.99% or more will have been burnt or rotten away, specially in our cold and wet climate.
Even more so for our ancient writing materials (felt and pomp-leaves?).
### Posted 14 February 2012 - 12:08 PM
Abramelin, on 14 February 2012 - 12:03 PM, said:
And what about those citadels made of bricks and stone? These must have been all over Europe too?
Who says they were made of bricks and stone?
They tend to be recycled anyway.
Even in the last few hundred years there have been palaces and castles of which no trace can be found now.
### Posted 14 February 2012 - 12:28 PM
[109/14] Apol-lánja's writings
BOPPA THÉRE RÉNA TWISK THET BERCHTA. THÉR HÀV IK MÁR.SÁTA SJAN.
THA MÁR.SÁTA THÀT SEND MÀNNISKA THÉR INVPPA MÁRA HÉMA.
HJARA HUSA SEND VP PÀLUM BUWAD.
THÀT IS VRET WILDE KWIK ÀND BOSE MÀNNISKA.
THÉR SEND WOLVA BÁRA ÀND SWÁRTE GRISLIKA LÁWA.
ÀND HJA SEND THA SWETSAR JEFTHA PÀLENGGAR FON DA HÉINDE KRÉKA LANDER THÉRA KÀLTA FOLGAR ÀND THA VRWILDE RE. TWISKAR. ALLA GÍRICH NÉI RÁV ÀND BUT.
Fragment of letter from Dr. Ottema to L.F. Over de Linden, dated 16-3-1877 (translation).
But now for something of great importance. The black lions of Apollonia with the Marsaten have been found in Switzerland! They had always bothered me, although I for myself was confident, that they someday would show up; because the OLB does not lie!
Mr. J. Dirks namely informed the meeting that he had received a letter from Switzerland, from one of his prehistoric congress friends, about archaeological finds there. In a collection of bones of various species (including humans), the remains had been found of lions of a special species, that is now extinct. For us this is a colossal discovery!
### Posted 14 February 2012 - 01:02 PM
Abramelin, on 14 February 2012 - 12:40 PM, said:
?? How did they know those lions were black??
They didn't
Quote
And oh wow, Ottema finally found out there were indeed lions!
Footnote in his 1876 edition: "Leeuwen in Europa, Herodotus, VII, 125."
The archaeological find in Switzerland was still relevant.
In any case, those letters and fragments I posted recently may give us some insight into the minds of Ottema and the Over de Lindens.
It's the first time they are being published in English.
### Posted 14 February 2012 - 09:37 PM
Remarkable
As you make your bed, so must you lie in it
(Dutch: Wie zaait, zal oogsten)
1) Publication (1854) by J.G. Ottema about a publication (1854) from M. de Haan Hettema
Title:
Het meer Flevo en de Middelzee, of Blikken op de wartaal van Jhr. Mr. M. de Haan Hettema, in zijn geschrift: "Over de oudere geschiedenis van Friesland, met betrekking tot haren vroegeren en tegenwoordigen waterstaat"
(Lake Flevo and the Middle-Sea, or views upon the gibberish of M. de Haan Hettema, in his publication: "About the older history of Friesland, concerning her earlier and present waters")
2) Publication (1876) by J.B. Vinckers about the OLB (published 1872 and 1876 by J.G. Ottema)
Title:
De onechtheid van het Oera Linda-Bôk, aangetoond uit de wartaal waarin het is geschreven
(The inauthenticity of the OLB, indicated by the gibberish in which it was written)
### Posted 14 February 2012 - 10:04 PM
Fragment of letter from dr. Ottema to L.F. Over de Linden, dated 4-5-1877 (Tresoar collection; translated);
These days I realised something concerning Beckering Vinckers' accusation of a cunningly devised plan.
Your father did not have a plan to have the manuscript printed or made public. Under pressure of Verwijs, and when the content was still unknown to him, he had initially agreed, but when he got disappointed that Verwijs did not keep his promise [to translate the manuscript], your father believed he was no longer bound to the permission he had given. Please read our letters from early 1871 (I think), and you will see how he resisted with tooth and nail against my plan for publication. Someone who wants to mislead the world would not do that, he would have grabbed the opportunity to carry out his deception with both hands. Kuipers [the printer] and I almost had to force him, and harsh words were exchanged.
### Posted 14 February 2012 - 11:24 PM
Abramelin, on 14 February 2012 - 10:15 PM, said:
I really have not the faintest clue to what you are hinting at.
I underlined the relevant part.
Ottema in 1854 used the term "wartaal" (gibberish, nonsense) in the title of his his article about de Haan Hettema's publication.
22 Years later Vinckers used that term (also in the title of an article) to burn down Ottema's love of his life, the OLB.
I don't think Ottema will have been the first, but appearantly, 19th century scholars used harsh terms to 'critisize' each others publications.
### Posted 14 February 2012 - 11:33 PM
Letter from dr. Ottema to L.F. Over de Linden, dated 19-5-1877 (Tresoar collection; translated);
Dear Sir!
The publication of your defence was well received. Whoever I asked thought the booklet was well written and had read it with pleasure. I sent a copy to Dr. Vitringa, trusting that he will mention it in the Deventer Newspaper, just like he discussed Beckering Vinckers' brochure.
As always busy researching, rethinking and collecting, I have elaborated a comment these days, that I will explain to you. Concerning the manuscript it is important, specially because Suffridus Petrus, de Scriptoribus Frisiae mentions in his introduction, that Friso left several writings, one of them a travel diary and biography; that he had written them in the Frisian language and with Greek characters, and that his successors wrote just like that, until the times that the Roman script became current in Germania.
He did not mention how or where he had learned about that (as was not his habit), but he can not have sucked that out of his thumb.
Something must have come to his knowledge of Frisian notes, from the times in which the Ovira Lindas wrote, and that travel diary (about the journey from India to Friesland) may be related to
Ljudgert's diary.
Informations like this from Suffridus used to be considered as fabulations, but among those fabulations there may turn out to be more truth than was presumed. It is also acknowledged that Suffridus Petrus never lied, but that he would have copied from earlier sources.
Recieve this letter in good health and be friendly greeted.
P.S. I may have an immodest request: can I keep the copy of Volney, as a souvenir to your father?
### Posted 14 February 2012 - 11:46 PM
Abramelin, on 14 February 2012 - 11:38 PM, said:
You forgot this Suffridus Petrus was also known for his limitless imagination?
On the contrary, he was known to never lie, but some believe he copied fabulations.
I have a different feeling about this, but would indeed like to read a good translation of SP's work, before I have a judgement.
### Posted 16 February 2012 - 10:56 AM
That website vikinginfrance.com is surely interesting.
So the name Askar/ Ascon was still in use in the 9th century, I'm not that surprised.
Nice to see another alternative historian challenge the historical establishment with good arguments.
### Posted 16 February 2012 - 06:38 PM
"Minerva", or: "Minerva as personification of wisdom"
Hendrick Goltzius, 1611 - Frans Halsmuseum, Haarlem
### Posted 16 February 2012 - 06:53 PM
Aphrodite is being surveyed by Paris, while Athena (the leftmost figure) and Hera stand by. El Juicio de Paris by Enrique Simonet, ca. 1904
### Posted 16 February 2012 - 07:05 PM
Urteil des Paris/ The Judgment of Paris
painting by Anton Raphael Mengs,
now in the Eremitage, St. Petersburg.
Oil on canvas, 226 x 295 cm.
Paris is awarding the apple to Aphrodite, while Athena makes a face.
Anton Raphael Mengs (1728–1779), ca. 1757
### Posted 18 February 2012 - 09:06 AM
Abramelin, on 16 February 2012 - 10:47 PM, said:
I really hope this thread never ends.
OK, sometimes we are not serious and fooling around a bit, but next day we 'sharpen our knives' and are back in business.
I can truelly honestly - and whatever adverb I should add to show my appreciation - say this: this gigantic thread has become something I really love.
### Posted 18 February 2012 - 09:39 AM
Abramelin, on 16 February 2012 - 11:19 PM, said:
I must be a descendant of those OLB guys who pronounced "Aldland" as "Atland", LOL.
That would be a thing from people living in The Hague.
New-Frisian also has the silent "l" in words like âld, kâld, sâlt, hold, silst, wolst.
Similarly a silent "f" in ôfsmite, "h" in hja, "r" in swart, "t" in kastke, "d" in wurdst.
(Source: Basiscursus Frysk, Afûk)
### Posted 18 February 2012 - 09:13 PM
Abramelin, on 18 February 2012 - 06:58 PM, said:
"Fin" appears to have been at one time a not uncommon name, whatever its etymology and that of "Fian" may be. [...] If Fin of the Fians, therefore, was a typical Fian, they were little people.
Interesting.
Fian = vijand (enemy)
Oudnederlands Woordenboek:
fīunt
Woordsoort: znw., m.
Modern lemma: VIJAND
Oudste attestatie: 901-1000
Frequentie: totaal: 26, appellatieven: 26
Etymologie: Cognaten: Oudfries fiānd, fiūnd.
Morfologie: ongeleed. Oorspronkelijk het tegenwoordig deelwoord van het ww. dat overeenkomt met Ohd. fīēn, Got. fijan 'haten', dat in het Ndl. niet meer bekend is.
http://gtb.inl.nl/iWDB/search?actie=article&wdb=ONW&id=ID3660&lemmodern=vijand
### Posted 18 February 2012 - 09:35 PM
Van Gorp, on 18 February 2012 - 07:16 AM, said:
Menapii -> Me-Na-By -> Mee Nabij -> onze buren die met ons zijn -> Allied Neighbours (Doornik region)
Chauci -> Ga-Houck -> Hoekig gaan, binnenvallen -> Tsjokken (to shock, see Choques in Frans Vlaanderen) -> to be shocked
And to make the movie complete we have
Germani -> Geer-mannen -> Samenkomen (vergaren, vergaderen, guerre)
Alemani -> Hale-mannen -> Allemant is a village in Frans Vlaanderen
Gaulen -> Ga-Halen -> We gaan het halen, wat ze ons hebben afgepakt!
Thank you VG, good to see you're busy with some older pages of the thread.
OLB provides an etymology for GERMANI and ALEMANI, I wonder if CHAUCI can be related to this fragment:
"MEN KAVCH IS ÁK WAN FRYAS ÀND MOT KÁP WÉSA" (p.146).
Gaules are called GOLA in OLB, but the meaning is not clear.
It is suggested that was the name of the sent priests from Sion. (p.60).
### Posted 18 February 2012 - 09:52 PM
Abramelin, on 18 February 2012 - 11:22 AM, said:
And then there are those 2 letters, -W- and -GS- , that are left out of the Yule wheel table on page 46 of the manuscript.
Although usually written as if it is one letter, I think W was officially seen as double V. COdL also explains this in one of his diaries (things he had learnt from his father, appearantly), and in
English the letter is also called double-U.
Why GS (or Gz) is missing, I don't know. Maybe the letter was 'modern' and not official.
### Posted 18 February 2012 - 09:59 PM
Abramelin, on 18 February 2012 - 03:25 PM, said:
I have been very busy with ancient North-Frisian legends I found a 19th century online account of. It was copied with OCR (Optical Character Reading) and thus contained a multitude of errors.
The legend (or the interpretation thereof) talks about what can only be Three Goddesses (but no names), a supreme spirit called The Old One, or "Uald", and some 'lost race'.
This surely sounds interesting, but what is said about the source of this info?
### Posted 19 February 2012 - 11:16 AM
Otharus, on 18 February 2012 - 09:35 PM, said:
Gaules are called GOLA in OLB, but the meaning is not clear.
It is suggested that was the name of the sent priests from Sion. (p.60).
GOLA, Sidon priests (OLB) Golem (Jewish folklore)
In Jewish folklore, a golem (ɡoʊləm/ goh-ləm; Hebrew: גולם) is an animated anthropomorphic being, created entirely from inanimate matter. The word was used to mean an amorphous, unformed material in Psalms and medieval writing. [...] The word golem occurs once in the Bible in Psalm 139:16, which uses the word גלמי, meaning "my unshaped form". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golem
Dutch Wiki (translated):
"Golem (Jewish legend)" was an anthropomorphic figure made of clay and animated by a rabbi [priest].
The word golem is probably derived from the Hebrew word 'gelem'(גלם), which means raw material.
OLB, translation Sandbach p.139:
"Among Finda's people there are false teachers, who, by their over-inventiveness, have become so wicked that they make themselves and their adherents believe that they are the best part of Wr-alda, that their spirit is the best part of Wr-alda's spirit, and that Wr-alda can only think by the help of their brains. That every creature is a part of Wr-alda's eternal being, that they have stolen from us; but their false reasoning and ungovernable pride have brought them on the road to ruin. If their spirit was Wr-alda's spirit, then Wr-alda would be very stupid, instead of being sensible and wise; for their spirit labours to create beautiful statues, which they afterwards worship."
### Posted 19 February 2012 - 12:33 PM
Abramelin, on 19 February 2012 - 12:29 PM, said:
The word "GOLA" dates from about the 6th century BC, while "GOLEM" is from medieval times, but anyway, centuries more recent then GOLA.
The oldest sources for the word "golem" may be from medieval times, but the folklore may have been much older. Anyway, a relationship with "GOLA" (as used in OLB) makes sense.
### Alewyn Raubenheimer posted 19 February 2012 - 01:36 PM
Otharus, on 18 February 2012 - 09:35 PM, said:
Gaules are called GOLA in OLB, but the meaning is not clear.
It is suggested that was the name of the sent priests from Sion. (p.60).
Some thoughts on the Gola from Sidon in Phoenicia:
OLB: The book of Adela’s followers (Chapter 25):
The Gola, as the missionary priests from Sidon were called, had noticed that the land there (Southern France) was sparsely populated and far from the Mother. In order to make themselves look good, they had themselves called in our language “truth devotees” (trowe widena); but they had better have been called “truth avoiders” (trowe wendena) or in short, “Triuwenden,” as our seafaring people afterwards called them.
Survivors of the Great Tsunami (Second Edition), Chapter 3, page 127:
The "Gola" called themselves "Trowe Widena" or "Treow-Wits" (Adherents or knowers of the Truth). The Frisians did not trust them at all and nicknamed them "Trowe Wendena" (truth avoiders) or "Truiwenden" in short.
The pagan religions from the East now had the Fryan Federation in a pincher with the Magy and his Magyarar priests in the north and north-east and the Treowit priests with their Gola missionaries in the south and west. The "Gola" later become known as the "Gauls" and the name "Treowits" evolved into "Druids" – the mysterious leaders in ancient Gaul that destroyed Fryan monotheism and held sway over the people in Gallic religion.
(Druids: From Treow+Wit, literally meaning Knower of the truth.
See: Treow (Old English, Anglo Saxon), Triuwi (Old Frisian) = Truth, and
Wit (Old English and Old Frisian) = Knowledge, understanding)
The Golan Heights, bordered by present-day Israel, Syria, Lebanon and Jordan, sounds suspiciously as though it may have been the origin of the ancient Gola priests (the Gola from Golan?) in nearby Sydon. "Golan" means "Captive" in Hebrew. The refuge town Golan is mentioned in the Bible in Deuteronomy 4:41-43 (RSV). If this supposition is correct, it would mean that the ancient Gauls had ties with the Golan Heights, which was annexed by Israel in 1981.
### Posted 19 February 2012 - 06:18 PM
Work in progress
JRTHA - OLB
earth - english
aarde - dutch
erde - german
ierde - frisian
jord - danish, swedish, norwegian
jörð - icelandic
JRTHA - OLB
erz - german
erts - dutch, frisian
ore - english
oro - italian, spanish
ouro - portuguese
aurum - latin
gold - english
goud - dutch, frisian
guld - danish, swedish
gull - norwegian, icelandic
GOLD - OLB
gult - icelandic
gul - danish, swedish, norwegian
geel - dutch
gelb - german
yellow - english
giallo - italian
giel - frisian
gul - dutch
generous - english
jild - frisian
money - english
penge - danish
pengar - swedish
penger - norwegian
peningar - icelandic
monnaie/ argent - french
penningen/ munten - dutch
münzen - german
mønter - danish
mynt - icelandic, swedish
mynter - norwegian
coins - english
argent - french
argento - italian
argentum - latin
argentino - spanish
silver - english, swedish
zilver - dutch
silber - german
sølv - danish, norwegian
silfur - icelandic
SULVER/ SILVER - OLB
sulver - frisian
zulver - westfrisian dialect
Gaul - english
Gaule - french
Gallia - latin, norwegian
Gallía - icelandic
Gallië - dutch
Gallien - german, danish, swedish
Golan-mountains: ore- or gold-mining?
Golem/ golum: anthropomorph statue, idol (religious), made of (precious) raw material (gelem) or gold?
Gauls, originally followers of the GOLA, later people from Gaul (Latin: Gallia).
Gollum (Tolkien)
### Posted 22 February 2012 - 05:03 PM
Criticism of religions in OLB
Worship of "BYLDON" (statues or images) - fragment 1 of 14
==>> see seperate post for all 14 fragments.
### Posted 23 February 2012 - 08:43 AM
Otharus, on 22 February 2012 - 05:03 PM, said:
Sandbach p.55
Comparing the translation of Sandbach (1876) to that of Raubenheimer (2011; 2nd edition, based on Sandbach), it can be concluded that Raubenheimer's version indeed seems to be an improvement.
However, in the following example, an important detail was missed, namely, that the Greek priests did not only erect statues of Minerva on their altars, but also that they sold statues of Minerva to the people; they commercialised her popularity!
Original fragment:
HJRA BYLDNESE STÀLDON HJA VPPA HJARA ÀLTÀRUM
JEFTHA HJA VRSELLADE.T ANDA DVMA MÀNNISKA.
Here's in italic Sandbach's and in normal script Raubenheimer's version:
one would have thought that they would have called all the people together
to drive us out of the land;
but no, in place of abusing her they went all about
from the
Now everyone would think that they would have called everywhere on the people
to drive us all out of the land.
(But) no, instead of defaming her, they went everywhere,
also to Heinde Krekaland (Italy) right up to the Alps, proclaiming
that it had pleased the Almighty God
to send his
over the sea in a cloud to give people good counsel,
and that all who listened to her should become rich and happy,
and in the end governors of all the kingdoms of the earth.
that it had pleased the highest god
to send his wise daughter Minerva, surnamed Nyhellenia,
amongst the people from over the sea on a cloud to give people good counsel,
and that all who listened to her should become rich and happy,
and in the end masters of all the kingdoms of the earth.
They erected statues to her on all their altars,
[they announced] advice that she had never given,
and related miracles
that she had never performed.
They erected statues of her on their altars
to beguile the stupid people.
They attributed all kinds of advice to her that she had never given,
and told of miracles
that she had never performed.
They cunningly made themselves masters of our laws and customs,
and by craft and subtlety were able to explain and spread them around.
By cunning they made themselves masters of our laws and customs
and by fallacies they wished to explain everything and expand thereon.
They appointed priestesses under their own care,
who were apparently under the protection of Festa, our first
to watch over the holy lamp;
They appointed matrons under their own authority,
who were ostensibly under the authority of Fasta, our first Honorary Mother,
to watch over the sacred lamp.
but that lamp they lit themselves,
and instead of imbuing the priestesses with wisdom,
and then sending them
to watch the sick
and educate the young,
they made them stupid and ignorant,
and never allowed them to come out.
That lamp, however, they lit themselves
and instead of imbuing the priestesses with wisdom,
and then sending them
amongst the people to nurse the sick
and educate the young,
they made them stupid and ignorant,
and never allowed them to come out.
They were employed as advisers,
but the advice which seemed to come from them
was but the repetition of the behests of the priests.
They were also employed as advisers,
but they only pretended that the advice came from their mouths;
they were nothing more than the mouth pieces through which the priests announced their desires.
### Posted 23 February 2012 - 02:30 PM
Abramelin, on 23 February 2012 - 02:08 PM, said:
"I the LORD thy God am a jealous God" (King James Bible, Exodus 20:4,5).
"I am the LORD: that is my name" —Isaiah 42:8
Interestingly, nowhere in the OLB is it suggested that Wralda would speak to people in any way, it is not even suggested Wralda is anything humanlike.
It is typical for the sort of priests that were so much hated by the OLB-Fryans, to suggest they knew what "God" would think or say.
According to the OLB, Wralda is all (the whole), and humans are only a part of it.
### Posted 23 February 2012 - 02:53 PM
Abramelin, on 23 February 2012 - 02:39 PM, said:
Btw, these Fryans did indeed suggest they 'knew' what Wralda wanted and desired; it's all over the OLB.
You mean things like:
[012/10] Tex Frya's
5. FJUWER THINGA SEND TO JVWE NOT JÉVEN. MITH NÁMA. LÔFT. WÉTER. LÁND ÀND FJUR.
MEN WR.ALDA WIL THÉR ALLÉNA BÍSITTAR OF WÉSA.
It's merely suggested that Wralda controls the elements (air, water, land, fire).
Nothing like "I am your god, you have to serve and obey me."
Or can you give an example of what you mean?
### Posted 23 February 2012 - 06:03 PM
Abramelin, on 23 February 2012 - 02:58 PM, said:
I don't mean to say Wralda speaks anywhere, only that people assume that Wralda approves of this or doesn't appove of that, or that something is not according to the will of Wralda... as though they know what Wralda wants and so on.
Here's two OLB-fragments about Wralda.
The first initially did not make sense to me, and I didn't like it,
until I realised that those 'books' have to be ment metaphorically.
The second fragment makes a lot of sense and is one of my favorite fragments.
I think it pretty much sums up how the Fryans related themselves to Wralda.
1) From: Form-lére (Apol-lánja) p.[099/07]
WR.ALDA IS THJU WISHÉD
ÀND THA ÉWA THÉR HJU TAVLIKT HETH.
SEND THA BOKA WÉRUT WY LÉRA MÜGE.
ÀND THÉR NIS NÉNE WISHÉD TO FINDANDE
NER TO GARJANDE BUTA THAM.
2) From: Other part of Form-lér (Apol-lánja) p.[103/05]
WY FRYA.S BERN SEND FORSKINSLA THRVCH WR.ALDA.S LÉVA.
~
BY T.ANFANG MIN ÀND BLÁT.
THACH IMMER WÀRTHANDE ÀND NÁKANDE TO FVLKVMENLIKHÉD.
SVNDER Á SA GOD TO WRDA AS WR.ALDA SELVA.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~
VSA GÁST NIS NAVT WR.ALDAS GÁST.
HI IS THÉRFON ALLÉNA EN AFSKINSLE.
~
THA WR.ALDA VS SKOP HETH ER VS IN THRVCH SINE WISHÉD.
BRYN. SINTÚGA. HÜGJA ÀND FÉLO GODA AINSKIPA LÉNAD.
HÍRMÉI MUGON WY SINA SKEPSELA ÀND SIN ÉWA BITRACHTA.
THÉROF MÜGON WY LÉRA ÀND THÉRVR MÜGON WY RÉDA.
ELLA ÀND ALLÉNA TO VS AIN HELD.
HÉDE WR.ALDA VS NÉNE SINNA JÉVEN
SA NE SKOLDE WY NARNE OF NÉTA
ÀND WY SKOLDE JETA REDDALASER AS EN SÉ.KWALE WÉSA.
THÉR FORTH DRYVEN WÀRTH.
THRVCH EBBE ÀND THRVCH FLOD.
### Posted 26 February 2012 - 08:12 AM
Abramelin, on 25 February 2012 - 11:51 PM, said:
I will bet there are Germans, Dutch, Scots, Brits, South Africans, Americans, and even Chinese who know what I am hinting at.
Let's be more specific, as the theological aspect of the dossier is actually interesting.
Jensma wrote his thesis for the theological faculty, and 3 'suspects' (not IMO) had studied theology: Haverschmidt, Verwijs and Halberstsma.
OLB was known in Germany as 'Himmler's Bible'.
People have suggested it was written to challenge the authority of the Bible, or to parody a 19th C. religious conflict.
So, what in your opinion are the most 'dangerous' fragments of the OLB?
### Posted 26 February 2012 - 02:40 PM
The Swedish word for "queen" - "drottning" - is related to the Oldfrisian word "drochten".
http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drottning
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Druhtinaz
http://gtb.inl.nl/iW...modern=drochten
http://gtb.inl.nl/iW...lemmodern=drost ("drochsate")
In OLB, DROCHTNE or DROCHTEN means (false) gods or idols, but it is also used for Wralda (once, I think).
Our "gedrocht" (creature) and "bedrog" (fraud) may be derived from it as well, but it would be etymological 'cousins' (not 'ancestors') of drost (Swedish: "drots") and drottning (queen).
### Posted 26 February 2012 - 05:28 PM
Abramelin, on 26 February 2012 - 04:04 PM, said:
Well, this Meijer said we should not confuse these words, and that is what you are doing now it seems. The word that means lord/queen is not related to the word that means monstrosity/deceite.
No, I (initially) said nothing about gedrocht/ bedrog (but it's possible that they're related; I don't take 'official' etymologists too seriously).
In Oldfrisian, 'Drochten', (also) meant lord or god, as you could have seen in the links I added.
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