22 April 2016

Forum #48 (2 feb. 2016 - 20 apr. 2016)

"The vintage festival" by Lawrence Alma-Tadema, 1871

Posted 02 February 2016 - 10:52 PM
Toponyms that might be related to Texland:
"The Toxandri (or Texuandri, Taxandri, Toxandrians etc.) were a people living at the time of the Roman empire. Their territory was called Toxandria, Toxiandria or Taxandria, a name which survived into the Middle Ages."
"Thessaloniki (...) is the second-largest city in Greece and the capital of Greek Macedonia, ..."
"By some accounts, Taxila was considered to be amongst the earliest universities in the world."
###

Posted by FromFinland 09 February 2016 - 12:12 AM
View PostOtt, on 07 February 2016 - 07:24 PM, said:
1. Schoolteacher Cornelis Wijs stated in 1876 that in 1831 he had heard Jan Over de Linden (1785-1835), the father of Cornelis, boost about descending from "the oldest family in the world".
For comparison, the Boxströms claimed to be the oldest human family in the world, and the origins of human species, Nordic white race and the later Nordic dynasties. The Austro-Hungarian Wiliguts, to my knowledge, claim heritage from the Odin's brother Vili, which puts them more or less in par with the Anglo-Saxon dynasties, who claimed heritage from Woden's line.

It's of a note that a SS document from 1936 dealing with the Wiligut tradition and marked read by mr. H.H. claims that one part of the text is word-for-word for oral presentation given by officer Franz Karl Wiligut, who died in 1883 aged 89 (Flowers 2001, 102). If true, this would put the the Karl Maria's father Franz Karl more or less into the same era as Helena Blavatsky (1831-1891), which might account for the literary clue of seemingly "Blavatskian" influence on human evolution in the Wiligut saga.

Interestingly in WW2 Germany one Ernst Lauterer also claimed to possess ancient heritage of the Volsung-clan. As he seems to have perished into obscurity in WW2, we know hardly anything of him, other than he had relatives in England and one certain mr. H. might have tried to contact them in his legendary flight to Scotland to link-up with the Douglas Hamilton, whose one best friend happened to be one Harry Lauder, whose surname in turn reminds highly of the Lauter(er). (Flowers 2001, 129.)

View PostOtt, on 07 February 2016 - 07:24 PM, said:
2. Two other schoolteachers made an official statement with a notary, that in 1848 they had heard Cornelis Over de Linden junior (1833-1868) boost about virtually the same (being from ancient noble Frisian descent), as well as his father (Cornelis senior) knowing this from "a book with strange letters".
As for the year 1848, it's allegedly the year when seven oak wood tablets containing the Wiligut saga were destroyed in a fire in Ofen (Buda) due to action by Hungarian rebels. Nothing of importance happened that year to Boxströms, in whose line Carl Gustaf Boxström was an alderman at town of Snappertuna at that time when Finland was part of the Russian Empire.

View PostOtt, on 07 February 2016 - 07:24 PM, said:
3. Naval officer W.M. Visser had made a diary note on 23-12-1854 of having heard from Cornelis Over de Linden that the latter had told him about the book and that it was written "in a strange language and a strange script".
Only 24 years earlier the Book of Mormon had been published in the United States, while being printed in English language, its original, as reported by witnesses, was indeed written "in a strange language and a strange script". (Note: I'm not a Mormon myself and am not trying to convert anybody here - I just find this an interesting coincidence.) Interestingly, Mormonism (and thus the Book of Mormon) was well known at that 1850s time in Europe:
Quote:
The Protestant countries of Western Europe—Scandinavia, Switzerland, Germany, and the Netherlands—played a major role in the growth and success of the Church from the beginnings in the 1830s until well into the twentieth century. [...] LDS converts came from many different Protestant denominations and sects, but most of them were religious "seekers" of one kind or another, sometimes already united in congregations like Timothy Mets's "New Lighters" in Holland in the early 1860s. [...]  A mission was established in the Netherlands in the 1860s, and over the years thousands became Latter-day Saints and immigrated to Zion. (Source)
###

Posted by 'Apol' 10 February 2016 - 08:26 AM
In the last part of the Oera Linda Book, the part dealing with Black Adel, is mentioned the hliðhâwar, which certainly means the Lithuanians and Latvians (whose names are of the same origin). The book tells that they got their name "because they always hew their enemies at the face".

The first known Latin form of the name - Lituæ, is found in a note of AD 1009, in a manuscript named the Quedlinburg Chronicles (Annals of Quedlinburg, or Saxonicae Annales Quedlinburgenses). The original document has disappeared, surviving only as a 16th-century copy held in Dresden, but its contents endure as a scholarly resource (Wikipedia).

What is interesting about this note, is, that it describes how an archbishop "was hewn in his head by pagans in Lituae, and thereafter went to heaven":

Sanctus Bruno qui cognominatur Bonifacius archepiscopus et monachus XI. suæ conuersionis anno in confinio Rusciæ et Lituæ a paganis capite plexus cum suis XVIII, VII. Id. Martij petijt coelos.


also, Hans Olav wrote at 06:07 PM
Burgh-femme Apollânja writes on pp. 90-91:

When I was thirty years one did elect me as burgh-femme, and when my brother was fifty he was elected as grietman. On mum’s side my brother was the sixth, but on dad’s side the third. Thus, by right his descendants could not carry any ‘Overa Linda’ after their names, but everybody wanted to have it in honor of my mum.

Is there someone who has been able to find out why Adelhirt's (it must be about him) descendants couldn't carry the name 'Overa Linda' - because Adelhirt was the sixth on Âdela's side, but the third on Apol's side?


and finally, Hans Olav's last post, at 06:13 PM
View PostEll, on 07 February 2016 - 07:09 PM, said:
E. Molenaar, Het Geheimzinnige Handschrift van de Familie Over de Linden. Feiten en gegevens omtrent herkomst en voorgeschiedenis van 'Het Oera Linda Boek'. Bussum, Uitgeversmaatschappij C.A. J. van Dishoeck, 1949. [...]
Very good! I have Molenaar's book, but not here in Manila. I'll for sure bring it from Norway next summer :-)


###

Posted 10 February 2016 - 09:32 PM
Alewyn Raubenheimer argues convincingly in his second edition (2011, p.92), that the Phaeacians ("who are near of kin to the gods" and who "surpass all other nations as sailors") of Homer's Odyssey* must be the Fryans (he wrote "Frisians").

Their king was Alcinous.

Did anyone ever notice that this name is pretty much the same as "Alcuin" (of York), a.k.a. Ealhwine?

On 19 Jan. 2012, I wrote:
I suspect that the author of the original text that was the source for "Thet Freske Riim" and "Tractatus Alvini" was not Magister Alvinus who was rector of the Latin School in Sneek ca. 1400 (as Suffridus Petri believed), but Alcuin of York (Latin: Alcuinus) or Ealhwine (ca.735-804).
*Odyssey book 13: But Neptune (...) took counsel with Jove. "(...) mortals like the Phaeacians, who are my own flesh and blood (...)"

###

FromFinland Posted 12 February 2016 - 08:15 PM
View PostOtt, on 10 February 2016 - 09:32 PM, said:
surpass all other nations as sailors
Interestingly OLB highlights in several parts how Danish are the best marines, for example:
The Denmarkers, who proudly considered themselves sea-warriors above all the other sea-people
Tacitus (Germania 44) has the Swedes as possessing a huge fleet, though it's not mentioned specifically if it's of a military marine orientation (as Danes of OLB), or of a civilian sailor orientation (as Phaecian/Frisians). Of note is that he is able to tell something about the Frisians, yet he makes no mention of Frisian naval capabilities whatsoever in 98 AD, other than the Roman navy had ventured into Frisian waters (Germania 34).

Caesar in his The Gallic War of about 58 to 50 BC describes the Briton Veneti people of French Bretagne as being a marine nation with ships larger and superior to the Roman ones*. They are known to had a connection to their Briton cousins in Britannia and their tin trade, which is also mentioned in the OLB.

Interestingly in the Caesar's story the main highlight of the Venetis are their advanced ship building skills and - surprise surpise - their tribal name means 'a boat' in Finnish and Estonian (vene, plural veneet). This odd outside-the-normal linguistical connection between the Finns and Britons of old must have been noticed or known by the Romans, for Tacitus mentions 150 years later in his Germania that the Finnic Estonians (Aesti) look like Germans but speak like Britons (Germania 45).

*Thereby betraying the OLB description of Britons as backwardish somewhat lacking, for high-class naval technology points to opposite. For more information, please also see the Briton traditions as retold by Monmouth, The Mabinogion et al. One could of course ponder that the old Frisians of the OLB had even better ships than the Veneti Britons, and the later Tacitus Frisians were a mere remnant of older sea people and hence their navy is not mentioned.


###

Posted 15 February 2016 - 05:12 PM


From Dutch newspaper article (Telegraaf, 14-5-1933) about an exhibition in Berlin by Herman Wirth, who published a German translation of the OLB in 1933 (translated):
Contemporary primordial religion for the Aryans

[...] In Germany, a daily increasing movement of people can be observed, that turns away from Christianity and wants to return to the original Germanic and Aryan gods. This movement had been moderate, since many felt uncomfortable worshiping Wodan again. But now, Wirth has come with his "Hailbringer" and it is under this banner, that the anti-Christian Germans can somewhat decently unite if they want.
    The matter has become highly relevant, since the organisation of "German Christians" has emerged, its main aims still hardly being known. As far as this new initiative persues reformation of the Protestant church after National Socialist principles, it is of some interest. But it becomes sensational, when it aims at "purging" Christianity of all Semitic smut, for example by abolition of the Old Testament. [...]
Full Dutch text here.

###

Posted 16 February 2016 - 02:56 PM
View PostOtt, on 26 January 2016 - 10:15 PM, said:
At least that
1) he had the OLB secretely researched until 1943 and
2) that in 1942 he had planned to have a splendor-edition made [...]

Some relevant facts concerning the OLB in the years 1933-1945.

1933 April or May: Wirth opened very succesful exhibition "Hailbringer" in Berlin about primordial religion of the "Nordic Aryan" race. (Telegraaf, dutch newspaper article 14-05-1933)

1934 May 4: theatrical panel discussion about OLB at Berlin university. (G.Simon, "Buchfieber. Zur Geschichte des Buches im 3. Reich", p.14)

(Following mostly from reference list by Gerd Simon, translated from German)

1934 Since mid June: publications about OLB or Wirth were forbidden in NS-Germany. (letter 24-09-1934) Note: some seem to have have slipped through censorship, though.

1935 August 19: geographer-archaeologist Albert Herrmann wrote to Himmler after having been in Holland: "New insights in OLB ... surprising observations ... which convincingly confrim authenticity of sources".

1935 or 1936 (not dated) SS-Ahnenerbe working plan research OLB. Team: Wirth, Wüst, Dingler, Plassmann, Werner Müller, Herrmann, Albert.

1936 April 8: letter Galke to Ahnenerbe about Himmler's plan to have a splendor edition of OLB made as gift for Hitler. (p.137 "Maskenwechsel", Gerd Simon 1999)

1936 September 18: Himmler pays 100 Reichsmark per months (9 months) to medievalist Maußer for secret OLB research.

1937 February 25: Himmler in letter to Eckhardt: "The German scientific community could actually be happy and grateful indeed, when I proceed more scientifically than they themselves. For I am not as bold as to assume beforehand that the OLB must be authentic, like they boldly assume beforehand that it must be a forgery."

1937 June 2: Himmler decides 9 more months research by Maußer for 100 RM per month.

1937 July 15: Ahnenerbe research team OLB under leadership Maußer: Wirth, Wüst, Dingler, Plassmann, Werner Müller, Herrmann

1941 July 20: Maußer writes about work Heyting and Overwijn: "Very interesting that also these Dutch don't doubt OLB's authenticity. The difference between them and me is that I can provide hard evidence."

1942 July 1: death Maußer.

After that, till Oct. 1944 question about where Maußer's collection of over 1500 books should go.

###

Posted 19 February 2016 - 04:39 PM
Dinaso or Verdinaso flag
Translated from "De NSB - Ontstaan en opkomst van de Nationaal-Socialistische Beweging, 1931-1935" (2009) by Te Slaa & Klijn (p.706)
Regional commissioner Van de Weide ascertained, that Frisian students were interested in the old-Germanic culture: "The Frisian core, which indeed promotes the ideas of Prof. Wirth is also very much pro-Hitler and pro-German; in general they are hostile towards the NSB*, because they see it as too specifically Dutch, too metropolitan and not folkish; they are thus more attracted to groups like Dinaso**."
* Dutch National-Socialist Movement
** Union of Diets (Flemmish-Dutch) National Solidarists

###

Posted 02 March 2016 - 10:59 AM
View PostPassing Time, on 01 March 2016 - 12:22 PM, said:
"Dares the Freson of Troie was the first who wrote...
Great find. So already (or still!) in the 13th century, people believed (or knew) that Phrygius = 'Freson
Dares Phrygius, according to Homer, was a Trojan priest of Hephaestus. He was supposed to have been the author of an account of the destruction of Troy, and to have lived before Homer. https://en.wikipedia.../Dares_Phrygius
###

FromFinland Posted 03 March 2016 - 01:16 AM
As for the Dares Phrygius, who is Trojan according to Wikipedia's sources, doesn't his surname mean 'a Phrygian', as in 'Phrygian cap'? Wikipedia tells the following on the Phrygians:

According to ancient tradition among Greek historians, the Phrygians anciently migrated to Anatolia from the Balkans. Herodotus says the Phrygians were called Bryges when they lived in Europe.
...
Eric P. Hamp in his 2012 Indo-European family tree classified the Phrygian language together with Italo-Celtic as member of a member of a "Northwest Indo-European" group.
(Source)

If the Bryges have a connection to Balkans, how about the Bructeri of Tacitus that are not that far from the Frisian lands? For we must consider that:

Based on archaeological evidence, some scholars such as Nicholas Hammond and Eugene N. Borza argue that the Bryges/Phrygians were members of the Lausitz culture that migrated into the southern Balkans during the Late Bronze Age. (Source)

And what is this "Lausitz culture" the wise men speak of? Let's have a look at the map shall we: here. While not a direct match, eerily similar in greater picture isn't it? We're talking about Germanic peoples!

And now I ask, aren't all of those Bructeri and Lausitz culture lands areas more or less the same lands that are described in the Oera Linda story as Frisian lands: 

"On one side we were bounded by Wr-alda’s Sea ... on the other side we were hedged in by the broad Twiskland, through which the Finda people dared not come on account of the thick forests and the wild beasts.
Eastward our boundary went to the extremity of the East Sea, and westward to the Mediterranean Sea; so that besides the small rivers we had twelve large rivers given us by Wr-alda to keep our land moist, and to show our seafaring men the way to his sea.
The banks of these rivers were at one time entirely inhabited by our people, as well as the banks of the Rhine from one end to the other.
...
As our country was so great and extensive, we had many different names. ... From there to the nearest part of Krekaland the inhabitants were called Kadhemers, because they never went to sea but remained ashore.
Those who were settled in the higher marches bounded by Twisklanden (Germany) were called Saxmannen, because they were always armed against the wild beasts and the savage Britons. Besides these we had the names Landzaten (natives of the land), Marzaten (natives of the fens), and Woud or Hout zaten (natives of the woods)."

The way I read Oera Linda book's description of Germanics peoples and conciliate it with other sources, surely all the ethnic Germanic peoples of modern-day Germany must be understood as Frisian, not Finnic, in this context. Wouldn't this in turn mean then, that the Bructeri and Bryges-Phrygians of possible Lausitz cultural background were just one of the many Frisian tribes*? Moreover, isn't "the nearest part of Krekaland" the Balkans? If yes, are tribal names like Bructeri, Bryges and Phrygians all corruptions of the original tribal name 'Frisian'? Wouldn't this match perfectly what our friend above cited from the Mannyng's Chronicle, with Bryges-Phrygian meaning a Freson i.e. Frisian ('son of Frey' or 'son of Freya')?

*That related people would have a variance in their tribal names we see also today when we speak of both Britons and Bretons. Likewise, we have the Van people of Nordic mythos in names like Vandals, Andalusia, Vendel, Veneti, Venäjä, Vanaja, Vantaa et cetera.)


###

Posted 04 March 2016 - 10:47 PM
View PostAbramelin, on 04 March 2016 - 08:41 PM, said:
As soon as you read something (online) in the Phrygian language...
"The study of the language is made especially difficult by the fact that there is not much to research: we can only judge by several tablets and inscriptions, glosses containing mostly personal and place names."
http://tied.verbix.c...k/phrygian.html

The language of the few fragments that are found are called "Phrygian", because it is found in the area where they were supposed to have lived. It is all very speculative. Nobody knows what people wrote these texts and if it corresponded to any of the spoken language(s).

###

FromFinland Posted 04 March 2016 - 11:15 PM
Abramelin, thank you for the link giving concrete insight on the matter. Here's more with a rune script that looks strikingly similar to Futhark and modern Latin alphabet: inscription of the Midas city.

In the link you gave to a chart, I could have (and surely many of you others, too) given many better examples of similarities between the languages. For example, tios or 'gods' is not some fictional reconstruction "*deiwo-", but Zeus, Deus, taivas ('sky' in Finnish) etc. Overall, the language comparison table isn't that off from the traditional Balkans story or the Central European hypothesis of the researchers - or did somebody expect them to speak a perfect Dutch variant of the old Germanic language?

You know, if those northerners moved a way back to Balkans and lived there, surely their language woud have adapted to Eastern European slavic and Mediterranean Greek influences. Then, they would have moved to Asia Minor or modern Turkey, with more influence from Levant. Unless they were hard core racial puritans, they would have mixed in with the local populations to some degree. Moreover, even the remnants of their own Germanic language would have mutated, as we see for example in the English language (and in North American English, too).

You know, one can be of related people without speaking a related language. Take Russians of European ethnicity, for example. Since the end of the last ice age they were basicly the same Finnish peoples as we in Finland and Estonia. As our glorious race ( ;) ) spread eastwards with a quite long distances, small differences in faces and language started to appear. The easternmost ones blended to the Asian race, being something in-between of Europeans and Asians. After something like 6000 years of happy Finnish identity all the Goths, Huns, Swedes, Slavs and Mongols appear in a quick succession one after the another. Like that isn't enought, even the Russians themselves decide to borrow their language and culture from the Greek Byzantines. The result: great mass of the European Russians are still in 2016 racially Finnic, with a lot of equally Finnic cultural elements - yet only a small minority speaks still the Finnish language (or Karelian, Mari, Vepsä et cetera as the Russian dialects of Finnish are called after the tribal distinction). The Russian language is a relatively newcomer to the scene, being a mishmash of Greek, Swedish and Slavic languages, with some few Finnish elements still contained in it.

Compared to that, changes the Germanic-to-Anatolian journey made to the language are not a surprise, at all.

Now that I think of it, a bit similar story is told by Geoffrey of Monmouth, according to whom Caesar upon invading the British isles did recognise the inhabitants as of related kin (by the way of ancient Brutus) even after all those centuries of living in northern half of the Europe. Other similarity, methinks, is the Aryanhood of some Persians and Indians.

###

Posted 05 March 2016 - 09:05 AM
Well said, FF.
View PostFromFinland, on 04 March 2016 - 11:15 PM, said:
In the link you gave to a chart, I could have (and surely many of you others, too) given many better examples of similarities between the languages. For example, tios or 'gods' is not some fictional reconstruction "*deiwo-", but Zeus, Deus, taivas ('sky' in Finnish) etc.
Here are two more that caught my eye (and more resemble N-European than other languages):

"wit- (to know)"
witon - old dutch, old frisian, old english
witun - old saxon
witum - old norse
wit(t)e - frisian
weten - dutch
wissen - german
(noun "wit" - english)
(latin - videre)
(sanskrit - véda, vidáti)

"es' (a donkey)"
esel - german, norse
ezel - dutch
æsel - danish
åsna - swedish
asni - icelandic
aasi - finnish
asinus - latin
asino - italian
âne - french
(compare: greek - gaidaros; spanish - burro)

###

Posted 05 March 2016 - 11:14 AM
View PostEll, on 05 March 2016 - 09:51 AM, said:
Hence Walhalla = Hall of getting Well = hospital
I think it was a hall of choice (choosing partner?) which is more like something our ancestors would have wanted after death.

choice/ choose

wahl - german
val - swedish
valg - danish
valget - norse
vaalit - finnish

Walhallagara in OLB could have been a burgh where traditionally famous festivals (fest-i-val) were organised.

###

FromFinland Posted 05 March 2016 - 12:01 PM
It's validate in modern English. For festivals, please see Walpurgisnacht or Valborg/Valpuri, which is also a Nordic female given name. The name Walburga means 'ruler of the fortress'.

In Boxström tradition the name lives in words like Valhalla, festival, valkyrior and Valborg, of which the two last refer to women thematically. I note that the Finnish tradition in question is more relaxed on these matters than the Scandinavian and Frisian traditions, for in Finnish tradition everyone ends up in Valhalla and valkyrior does not refer to select few battle-ready women soldiers, but generically to all women who would choose would-to-be fathers of their future children. Again, this just shows how the same basic story is known all over the North Europe, but the details differ.

###


Posted 05 March 2016 - 03:57 PM
View PostFromFinland, on 05 March 2016 - 12:01 PM, said:
The name Walburga means 'ruler of the fortress'.
Official etymology, specially that of names is often very dubious, I have noticed.
As for names, I believe the ancients liked them most when they had different possible meanings.

###

Posted 06 March 2016 - 01:55 PM
Two significant sources (in Dutch) that were not linked to yet (I think):

Ottema (1873) Geschiedkundige aanteekeningen en ophelderingen bij Thet Oera Linda Bok

Ottema (1874) De Koninkijke Akademie en het Oera Linda Boek

In the first, on page 28 (translated), about JES.US (or BUDA, see pages 185-193 in Sandbach's translation of the OLB)
The influence of Buddha's teachings though, seems to also have spread westwards to the fire-worshippers in Aria, to the Persians and to those in Azerbaijan, the latter having kept a memory of Buddha's first name in their tribal name Yezidi's; followers of Jess [Ottema's spelling].
By searching "Yezidi", I found
The Yazidis (also Yezidis...) are a Kurdish religious community or an ethno-religious group indigenous to northern Mesopotamia whose strictly endogamous, and ancient religion Yazidism (or Sharfadin) is not linked to Zoroastrianism but to ancient Mesopotamian religions...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yazidis
In a further search I found an interesting etymology:
Yazata is an Avestan language passive adjectival participle derived from yaz-; "to worship, to honor, to venerate".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yazata
Since Yaz, yez, yes, jes is all the same, this very well explains the name JES.US, and it might even explain "yes" as in our confirmation: I honor, I agree.

View PostTony S., on 25 December 2015 - 05:26 PM, said:
In the Frisian the name is given as Jes-us, or variants thereof, and by the context it is clear that Jesus is meant.
As I have explained earlier, I don't think JES.US in OLB refers to the later Jesus of Nazareth. The latter may (as "Isa"?) have had part of his education in India (where he also died many years after the 'resurrection', as very well theorised by others) and have gotten the name "Jesus" there, after one of the names of Buddha. Why would he have been the first with that name?

###

FromFinland Posted 06 March 2016 - 02:07 PM
View PostFromFinland, on 03 March 2016 - 01:16 AM, said:

According to ancient tradition among Greek historians, the Phrygians anciently migrated to Anatolia from the Balkans. Herodotus says the Phrygians were called Bryges when they lived in Europe.
...
Eric P. Hamp in his 2012 Indo-European family tree classified the Phrygian language together with Italo-Celtic as member of a member of a "Northwest Indo-European" group. (Source)

My quote above is of the possible Germany-Balkans-Turkey route, with the idea that the Balkans might constitute the "nearest part of Krekaland" as mentioned in the Oera Linda source. Something was there at the back of my mind - where had I heard this before? Yes, it was the Goths of Gotland island moving to Greece (griclanz or 'Greek-land', compare to Krêkalana):


These then divided Gotland into three parts, so that Graip the eldest got the northern third, Guti the middle third, and Gunfjaun the youngest had the south. Then, over a long time, the people descended from these three multiplied so much that the land couldn't support them all. Then they draw lots, and every third person was picked to leave, and they could keep everything they owned and take it with them, except for their land. Then they were unwilling to leave, but went to Torsburgen and settled there. Then the country [Gotland] would not tolerate them, but drove them away.
Then they went away to Fårö and settled there. They couldn't support themselves in that place, so they went to a certain island off the coast of Estland, called Dagö, and settled there and built a town that can still be seen. But they couldn't support themselves there either, so they went up the river Dvina, up through Russia. They went so far that they came to the land of the Greeks. They asked leave of the Greek king to stay there for the waxing and waning of the moon. The king granted that, thinking it was just for one month. Then after a month, he wanted to send them away, but they answered that the moon waxed and waned for ever and always, and so they said they were allowed to stay. Word of this dispute of theirs reached the queen. She said, "My lord king, you granted them permission to dwell for the waxing and waning of the moon; now that's for ever and always, so you can't take it off them." So they settled there, and live there still, and still have something of our language. (Source)

Authors of Wikipedia think this may refer to 263 A.D. invasion of Goths known from Greek sources, making it possibly (I guess) too late for the Oera Linda story. Perhaps we have here a recurring pattern, movement of from North to Greek lands:
  • Bryges-Phrygians connection as reported by Greek sources, possibly stemming from the Lusatian culture
  • Gutasaga, possibly the invasion of 263 A.D as told by ancient sources
  • Oera Linda book connection to Greece
  • Boxström saga connection to Greece, journey from Hel of Aesir, or As-Hel, to Greek Hellas (Bock 1996, 28)
  • Greek story of Hyperborean Arge and Opis, also later Hyperoche and Laodike along with 5 men moving to Greece, moving south through Scythia, or South Russia, to Greece
  • later Russian viking tradition of serving Byzantine Emperor as Varangian guard from 9th century onwards.
I see a definite pattern here, stretching well over a thousand years. Many of the above north-south connections are peaceful, or even diplomatic, in nature.

###
 
FromFinland Posted 06 March 2016 - 09:25 PM
View PostTony S., on 06 March 2016 - 06:34 PM, said:
"Although they knew that Jessos had taught that men should regulate and control their passions, they taught that men should stifle their passions, and that the perfection of humanity consisted in being as unfeeling as the cold stones."
The bolded part sounds very much like the Stoicism:

The Stoics did not seek to extinguish emotions; rather, they sought to transform them by a resolute "askesis" that enables a person to develop clear judgment and inner calm. Logic, reflection, and concentration were the methods of such self-discipline. (Source)

Equanimity (Latin: æquanimitas having an even mind; aequus even animus mind/soul) is a state of psychological stability and composure which is undisturbed by experience of or exposure to emotions, pain, or other phenomena that may cause others to lose the balance of their mind. The virtue and value of equanimity is extolled and advocated by a number of major religions and ancient philosophies. (Source)

View PostTony S., on 06 March 2016 - 06:34 PM, said:
"Church" is a translation of OLB Frisian cherke (modern Frisian tsjerke). The fact that the OLB was using this word in the 6th century BC should give us pause, since it has hitherto been thought to derive from the Greek term kyriakon doma ("lord's house"), entering the Germanic languages from about AD 300. Yet this instance of the use of the term in the OLB is by no means the only one, nor even the earliest.
By comparison, the Boxsröm saga has a full hierarchic system of temples, chapels and offering groves. Those buildings are typically made of wood and contain altars. The word 'chapel' is alleged as ancient and not of Christian import. Note is being made that it has partially the same etymology as temple (kappeli or kapell, temppeli). Ka refers to karl class of peoples, tem to temperature and peli to 'game' or 'play'. Word 'church' (kirkko, kyrko) is mentioned as an old one, implying heathen timeframe. In addition, Christmas of Yule and the Nordic Saint Lucy's Day are described in detail as heathen traditions. (Bock 1996, 28, 39-40, 87.)

Finnish heathen poetry also mentions occasionally words that sound like Christian. Here is one example about the death of Balder by Hodur:

Hankki Päivölä pitoja,______________Päivölä organised feasts, [Päivölä = lit. 'place of Day', same as Scandinavian Asgård]
jumalisto juominkeja.______________gods sprees.
Tupa oli tehty Päivölässä,__________A room had been made at Päivölä,
Päivölässä, Pohjolassa:___________At Päivölä, at North:
sivulta sata'a syltä,_______________one hundred fathoms by side,
tuhansia poikkipuolin._____________thousands across.
[...]____________________________[...]
Tuo oli Päivölän isäntä,____________That was the master of Päivölä,
laittoi kutsut kuusialle,_____________sent invitations for six,
kahdeksialle keruhut:_____________ for eight to be collected:
kutsui pipit, kutsui papit,___________invited bishops[?], invited priests,
kutsui kaikki ristikansan,___________called all the crossfolk,
kutsui hoikat huovimiehet._________called the slender soldiermen.

[From here the poem continues with the main character Lemminkäinen, or Balder, being killed by blind sepherd, or blind Hodur. Source: Martti Haavio, Kirjokansi, 1980, pages 89-94. Translated by me.]

Traditional view of academia is that this otherwise fully a heathen poem dealing with the major heroes of note has been affected by later Christian times, hence the mention of 'priests' and 'crossfolk'. Once I thought so too, until I learned about Baldur-Kristos of Wiligut story, chapels of Boxström story, Jes-us of Oera Linda story and the hybrid Germanic Christianity that blended early Christianity with Germanic culture. I'm not so sure anymore as to whether these are some kind of cultural synthesises, or are we dealing with fully heathen stories.

###

FromFinland Posted 07 March 2016 - 09:41 PM
View PostVan Gorp, on 07 March 2016 - 07:22 PM, said:
1) There is a chronological discrepancy according standard history between Buddha and Jesus as one and the same
2) They reflections stemming/describing the same upheavel around the same cultural movement, with the same main actors in the same time period
The Soviet-Russian mathematician, artist and historian Anatoly Fomenko did some serious historical research by putting all the known historical data and dates to a computer, which printed a result that confirmed what revolutionary-turned-into-scientist Nikola Morozov had found already in the first half the 1900s. Namely that either human history has some serious recurring pattern into it, or alternatively very much of the old historical sources are outright fabrications. Fomenko and Morozov believed the latter. As they could base some of their datings to astronomical incidents - which can be calculated backwards in time - the historical records had to be adjusted in Fomenko's view either further back to older times, or closer to newer times (i.e. late Medieval times or later). Fomenko chose the latter, which compressed the known history into the last 1000 years or so.

I think Fomenko made a critical error in this, but his notes about the anomalies seem alarming. Instead of compressing history into one thousand years, I think human history should be seen as longer than commonly thought of. Not only do mythological sources from all over the planet consistently point to such a past, also the mainstream history has been moving all the time to that direction. Cases of Göbekli Tepe and Wolf Cave are good examples of this scientific phenomena.

Please see for yourselves: Roman Empire and Biblical Jews, Holy Roman Empire and Biblical Jewish Kingdom. One would easily think that the later dates would be the more trustworthy datings. If so, it would mean that much of the Old Testament and even older Roman history is made up in regards to dates and durations of the governance. The falsification operation would have had to happen in Christian times, done by Roman-Catholic authors.

###

FromFinland Posted 10 March 2016 - 01:46 AM
Thank you The Puzzler for teaching me about the Egeria - very interesting. Clearly we see a pattern here Fasta/Vesta/Veleda/Vala/Völva/Vegoia/Egeria. These give many etymological possibilities:
vetenskap - knowledge (Scandinavian)
veta - to know (Scandinavian)
val - elections, a selection (Scandinavian)
validate - to confirm (English)
valita - to choose (Finnish)
velho - a wizard (Finnish).
wail/valittaa - to lament, to cry (English and Finnish).

I thought about the connection to the fate or luck of female Fortuna-wheel:

Another parallel to Norse mythology is that a 'Völva', or Vala was a 'Seeress' that was connected with water and foretelling, called 'Völuspa' (that is, Völva+Spake/Speech). In Norse myth, making Völuspas was connected to spinning/braiding the Thread of Fate for the one whose future had been foreseen. Völva is cognate to 'Wheel/Spinning Wheel'. All also traits of goddess Mokosh/Vela  (Source)

The Lombard historian Paulus Diaconus, who died in Southern Italy in the 790s, was proud of his origins and wrote on how his people once had departed from southern Scandinavia.[8] He tells of a conflict between the early Lombards and the Vandals. The latter turned to Odin (Godan), while Gambara, the mother of the two Lombard chieftains Ibor and Aio, turned to Odin's spouse Frea (Freyja/Frigg). Frea helped Gambara play a trick on Odin and thanks to the völva Gambara's good relations with the goddess, her people won the battle. (Source)

The above author Paulus Diaconus may be of interest to you of Frisians interest, not only for the above story about Freya and völva, but his History of The Langobards mentions the following in passing:

In like manner also the race of Winnili, that is, of Langobards, which afterwards rules prosperously in Italy, deducing its origin from the German peoples, came from the island which is called Scadinavia, though other causes of their emigration are also alleged.4

4 The other cayses of the emigration of the Winnili may be those suggested in the Chronicon Gothanum where the prophetess or sibyl Gambara "declared to them their migration." "Moved therefore not by necessity, nor hardness of heard, nor oppression of the poor, but that they should attain salvation from on high, she says that they are to go forth." (Monument, Germ. Hist. Leges, IV, 641.).

To my knowledge, Paulus Diaconus above and possibly the Chronicon Gothanum are only sources aside the Oera Linda book that put the name Winnili - or the Finns - to Scandinavia prior to the much later age of the Finnish Fornjót dynasty. While not quoted here, it's clear that the Winnili here are not Lapps (sometimes also called 'Finns'), for they're described separately under the 'Scritobini'. That V or W could become F is not my idea, but of a common linguistical knowledge. It's also given in the Boxström saga, where the root etymology of the name 'Finland' is given as "Vin-land" (Bock 1996, 64). (Not to be confused with North American Vinland.)

That being said, somebody might point out - correctly - that Winnili here are Germanic and not Finnic. I would agree with that one, yet point out one thing: the most prominent and high-ranking Central European Germanic tribe of yore was that of Amali, whose name stems from the given name Amal. In turn, it just happens to mean Jumala 'a god' in Finnish. It was known by later Vikings as Jomali, which is more or less comparable to Amali  (Jomali/Amali). This was noted by folklore collector Kristfrid Ganander already way back in 1789 in his Mythologia Fennica. Thus a Scandinavian tribe with name sounding like 'Finns' is not necessarily that far out, and we may ponder if it has connection to Scandinavian Finns of Oera Linda story.

Oera Linda book:

One hundred and one years after the submersion of Aldland a people came out of the East. That people was driven by another. Behind us, in Twiskland (Germany), they fell into disputes, divided into two parties, and each went its own way. Of the one no account has come to us, but the other came in the back of our Schoonland, which was thinly inhabited, particularly the upper part. Therefore they were able to take possession of it without contest, and as they did no other harm, we would not make war about it. Now that we have learned to know them, we will describe their customs, and after that how matters went between us. They were not wild people, like most of Finda’s race; but, like the Egyptians, they have priests and also statues in their churches. (Source)

Frithiof's saga on how Norwegian king Helge died:

Thou canst but know
That while thou here wert building, he was on the march
Among the Finnish mountains. On a lonely crag    [Finnish mountains = "back of our Schoonland" above]
There stood an ancient shrine. To Jumala 'twas built [Jumala = 'God' in Finnish]
Abandoned long ago,—the door was now fast closed;
But just above the portal still there stood a strange
Old image of the god, now tottering to its fall.
But no one dare approach, for there a saying rife
Among the people went from age to age, that he
Who first the temple sought should Jumala behold.
This Helge heard, and, blinded by his furious wrath,
Went up the ruined steps against the hated god,—
Intent to cast the temple down. When there arrived
The gate was closed,— the key fast rusted in the lock.
Then grasping both the door-posts, hard and fierce he shook
The rotten pillars. All at once, with horrid crash,
Down fell the ponderous image, crushing in its fall
The Valhal-son. And thus he Jumala beheld.
A messenger last night arrived the tidings bore.
Now Halfdan sits alone on Bele's throne. To him
Thy hand extend, to heaven thy vengeance sacrifice.
That offering Balder asks, and I, his priest, require
In token that the peaceful god thou mockest not.
If thou refuse, this temple then is built in vain,
And vainly have I spoken. (Chapter XXIV)

The story continues with the victorious Wodin meeting with the Magy's lamenting messengers:

You think that we attacked your brothers out of illwill, but we were driven out by our enemies, who are still at our heels. We have often asked your Burgtmaagd for help, but she took no notice of us. The Magy says that if we kill half our numbers in fighting with each other, then the wild shepherds will come and kill all the rest.

[...]

When Wodin was crowned, he attacked the savages, who were all horsemen, and fell upon Wodin’s troops like a hailstorm; but like a whirlwind they were turned back, and did not dare to appear again.

Please compare to the much later case of Finnic Bjarmians fleeing the Mongols to Northern Norway - i.e. "back of our Schoonland", again peacefully:

The 13th century seems to have seen the decline of the Bjarmians, who became tributaries of the Novgorod Republic. While many Slavs fled the Mongol invasion northward, to Beloozero and Bjarmaland, the displaced Bjarmians sought refuge in Norway, where they were given land around the Malangen fjord, by Haakon IV of Norway, in 1240. (Source)

Was it a tradition already at that Medieval time? Were the crags and mountains of "back of our Schoonland" already full of derelict Finnic temples of yore?

Thereafter the Wodin story links with Nordic and Finnish sources, with marrying the Magy's daughter, or the Finnic princess Rinda as I have previously shown in this thread. What happened to Wodin, who went missing as per the Oera Linda book? Well, that's time for another topic and another post.

###

Posted 14 March 2016 - 08:20 PM
The etymology of Latin "templum" (temple) is not clear:
... of uncertain signification.

Commonly referred to PIE root *tem- "to cut" (see tome), on notion of "place reserved or cut out" [...], or to root *temp- "to stretch" [...], on notion of "cleared (measured) space in front of an altar" (see tenet and temple (n.2)), the notion being perhaps the "stretched" string that marks off the ground. source
Latin "tempus" = time

OLB: "T.ANFANG" = the beginning (of time) and related (an other name of?) to WR.ALDA (the most ancient one)

Tamfana (Tacitus Annals I-50-51) temple of the Germanic Marsi, that was destroyed by Roman army. The notion that Tamfana was a goddess has no base, it is an assumption.

So "templum" might originally be a place where (the beginning) of Time was contemplated.

###

FromFinland Posted 16 (and 28) March 2016 - 02:37 AM
I have earlier shown how the Wodin marrying an eastern woman is known - and thus confirmed - from Scandinavian and Finnish myths. Later, I mentioned in passing how the architype of Odin is known by us Finns as Väinämöinen, with the similarity extending to their respective sons Balder and Lemminkäinen. Moreover, the story of Wodin beating back cavalry enemy, that had harassed Finns towards the west, is strongly echoed later in Medieval times by the story of Mongols invasion causing the Finnish Bjarmians to flee westwards into the Norway. In this final part on Wodin, we'll see what the eastern European sources tell of Wodin's eventual fate and how the word survives today in Finnish context.

As the Poetic Edda's vision of Odin's death by the Fenrir-wolf is very much apocalyptic and fantastical in style, we'll look for the more realistic depictions. In the Heimskringla's Ynglinga Saga the Odin is given origins in the Asaland, east of the Don river of Russia (of whose beaches constitutes the Vanaheim). Odin arrives west by moving to Russia (Gardarike), Germany (Saxony) and to Denmark (Odense). Here the Ynglinga saga, that differs otherwise from the Oera Linda book, echoes the OLB:

The navy then sailed to Denmark, where they took on board Wodin and his valiant host.

The wind was fair, so they arrived immediately in Schoonland. When the northern brothers met together, Wodin divided his powerful army into three bodies. Frya was their war-cry, and they drove back the Finns and Magyars like children. When the Magy heard how his forces had been utterly defeated, he sent messengers with truncheon and crown, who said to Wodin: O almighty king we are guilty, but all that we have done was done from necessity. You think that we attacked your brothers out of illwill, but we were driven out by our enemies, who are still at our heels. We have often asked your Burgtmaagd for help, but she took no notice of us. The Magy says that if we kill half our numbers in fighting with each other, then the wild shepherds will come and kill all the rest. The Magy possesses great riches, but he has seen that Frya is much more powerful than all our spirits together. He will lay down his head in her lap. You are the most warlike king on the earth, and your people are of iron. Become our king, and we will all be your slaves. What glory it would be for you if you could drive back the savages! Our trumpets would resound with your praises, and the fame of your deeds would precede you everywhere. Wodin was strong, fierce, and warlike, but he was not clear-sighted, therefore he was taken in their toils, and crowned by the Magy.

[...]

Whereupon he [Wodin] was incensed with herbs; but they were magic herbs, and by degrees he became so audacious that he dared to disavow and ridicule the spirits of Frya and Wr-alda, while he bent his free head before the false and deceitful images. (Chapter 23.)

Compare to Ynglinga saga:

[Odin] himself went northwards to the sea, and took up his abode in an island which is called Odins in Fyen [Odense, Fyn island, Denmark].  Then he sent Gefion across the sound to the north to discover new countries; and she came to King Gylve, who gave her a ploughgate of land.
[...]

Now when Odin heard that things were in a prosperous condition in the land to the east beside Gylve [Sweden in Scandinavia]; he went thither, and Gylve made a peace with him, for Gylve thought he had no strength to oppose the people of Asaland.  Odin and Gylve had many tricks and enchantments against each other; but the Asaland people had always the superiority. (Chapter 5.)

From there the two stories again separate: in OLB Wodin disappears for good and story moves on to other things, whereas in Ynglinga saga has Odin establish his realm in Sweden and dies peacefully at bed in 'Swithiod' which refers to all the land areas north of Black Sea. Let's compare the two sources above for comparisons:

# 1: in both Odin starts at Denmark and heads to Scandinavian mainland
# 2: the name or title of the enemy chief is original sources Mâgy or Gylfa, both feature the distinctive part gy, whether in Mâ-gy or Gyl-fa
# 3: in both the Odin has a decisive easy victory: in OLB enemy is crushed and in Ynglinga saga enemy surrenders right away
# 4: in both Odin is crowned as the Scandinavian king
# 5: in both there is an element of conspiracy between the contestants, with fishy herbs in OLB and tricks and enchantments in Ynglinga saga

In addition consider the following:

# 6: OLB has Wodin as military commander (hêrman), whereas Ynglinga saga has Odin as "a great and very far-travelled warrior" (chapter 2).
# 7: both make Odin a mysterious traveller: in OLB he disappears eventually, in Ynglinga saga he often wanders out and is thought as lost (chapter 3).
# 8: both have two brothers: in OLB Inka and Tünis, in Ynglinga saga Ve and Vilje (chapter 3).
# 9: Mâgy (or Gylfa) has a thematic connection to east and Finns, and likewise in Hervarar saga Gylfa's daughter is married to king of Russia Sigrlami, who in turn is son of Odin in some versions of the Hervarar saga. A king of Russia in pre-Rurikid timeframe must be of Finnic cultural period, though foreign Germanic elements in society are not neccessarily entirely excluded. This all supports the overall eastern theme of the Scandinavian Mâgy, as presented in the Oera Linda narrative.
# 10: as per the Heimskringla's Ynglinga Saga's chapter five, Odin fled the influence of 'Roman chiefs'. Compare this to the Oera Linda book's Roman priests who "wish to assume the sole government of the world", to the antagonism between the Finnish Aesir and Roman Catholics of the Boxström saga and finally to the antagonism between Germanic peoples and Catholic Christians as echoed in Irminsaga of the Wiligut family (for example see Flowers 2001, 94, 96).

While the stories differ in many regards, surely all the above shows that they must have a one common source? Moreover, can we now research the matter more by making the following assumptions:

# A: Mâgy of Skên land is king Gylfa, whose name refers to magic and is also clue to his ethnicity or social position
# B: when Wodin conquered Skên land, he established his realm at Mälaren lake and named it Sigtuna, as related by Ynglinga saga (chapter 5)
# C: that OLB Wodin's unnamed father's real name is either Fjarlaf (Fridleif) or Finn
# D: that this Wodin is one and the same Odin, the founder of later Norwegian and Anglo-Saxon kings?

Moving on, we consider what happened to Odin eventually. OLB has him disappear, Ynglinga saga die a peaceful death in bed at Swithiod, which is basicly anywhere north of Black Sea. Into where did Wodin disappear, and at where exactly was that bed upon which Odin died in the wide lands north of the Black Sea? Well, it turns out there is a clue left, thankfully to faithful Estonians who have kept the tradition alive:

In Finland and Estonia toponyms starting with Ota- and Ote- come likely from the name of the Odinn. The name of Orion [in Finnish Otava] is in old Swedish Odenvagn and in German Woenswaghen. Orion star constellation was thought of being Odinn's chariot, by which he wanders through the night sky.
[...]

Odinn's last years went by as a wandering ascetic sailing by the coasts of Baltic sea. He is buried at the Osmussaari [island of Osmu] (Odensholm) at the front of Estonia. On the island is an old pathway, which the island's old inhabitants knew Odinn had walked once when he arrived at the island. They still know the exact burial place of the Odinn, but the grave stones (it was a so-called viking age stone boulder grave) were used by the Soviet troops to build fortresses of the island when it was used as a base. (Source, translated from Finnish by me)

There you have it folks: Osmussaar. It is situationed in the west part of Great Swithiod of Ynglinga saga. Odin did seem to sail on the Baltics, for just north of Osmussaar-Odensholm of the Estonian coast there is in the Finnish coasts the island of Udensö or Odensö, known as 'Odin island' by Kristfrid Ganander (Mythologia Fennica 1789, on word Saaris). Estonia is away from the West European scene of the OLB, hence the disappearing. Moreover, that our heathen forefathers found heroes in the sky is confirmed by Boxström saga tradition, which speaks almost poetically on the naming of the star systems, names the major sky object - sun - as Oden, has south Finland named all over after Oden (Uudenmaa, Odensö island above, Odensborg castle) and even speaks of 'faith of Oden' (Bock 1996, 12-13, 22, 52).

Now, when you see the The Lord of the Rings movies with your friends, you can relate to them the true story of real-life Gandalf "the Odinic wanderer", or Odin the Wanderer, in full.

###

Demiurg (Luther Zevenbergen) Posted 19 March 2016 - 08:25 AM
Although I follow this thread from time to time for years now, I have not post anything. But I like to ask something, especially the 'believers'.

It seems that a lot of you follow everything that is written about the OLB, but the book of Philippus Breuker, (Opkomst en bloei van het Friese nationalisme 1740-1875) is not mentioned once. And it is quite remarkable what he has to add to the OLB-literature.

In short, he criticises the thesis of Goffe Jensma that Francois Haverschmidt is the autoris intellectualis en gives arguments why Eelco Verwijs should be given this role. Mainly because the themes that Eelco Verwijs expresses in lectures and the books he was reading at the time (early 1860ies), are also main themes in the OLB. (to give one example: the hot 19th century debate of the development of indo-european languages.)

But not only that, he also studied the books that Verwijs left to the university library of Leiden. In this way he could see the topics Verwijs interested at some point. He even found written strokes at passages that are relevant to main themes of the OLB.
In historiographical terms: this comes close to 'caught red-handed'.

I mentioned this in the response on the blogs of one the topic-members and he even let the response through.
What do you think about this thing and why hasn't anyone of you noticed this?

###

Posted 19 March 2016 - 12:59 PM
Welcome to the thread, Demiurg.


View PostDemiurg, on 19 March 2016 - 08:25 AM, said:
... the book of Philippus Breuker, (Opkomst en bloei van het Friese nationalisme 1740-1875)
I did not know of that book. It sounds interesting. Thank you for pointing it out.

Quote
... gives arguments why Eelco Verwijs should be given this role. [...]
... the books that Verwijs left to the university library of Leiden. In this way he could see the topics Verwijs interested at some point. He even found written strokes at passages that are relevant to main themes of the OLB.
Is it certain that he had these books and made these strokes before he got to know the OLB?

Some arguments against Verwijs' involvement are:

1) As Jensma also points out, the language of the OLB does not correspond with Verwijs' ideas about certain etymologies. For example:
Posted 28 by Ott, November 2011, 07:02 PM
Both Dutch OLB-translators Ottema and Jensma interpreted FORÁNA as the old-Westfrisian village Vroonen (Vronen or Vrone), that was destroyed in 1297.

FORÁNA in OLB means "in front" (Dutch: vooraan).

Jensma's theory (2004) is that language expert Eelco Verwijs (1830-1880) was involved (one of three) in creating the manuscript, but in his 1863 publication (and lecture) "De namen der vrouw bij den Germaan" (the Germanic words for 'woman'), he suggests that the name of the village Vronen was derived from the Oldfrisian word FRÁN (vroom; sacred, pious).

This fact does not support Jensma's theory.
2) In 1867, Verwijs wrote to state officials, asking for money to have it translated and bought from Over de Linden. He was about to make a carreer and would not have risked to be caught as a fraud. He would have had to work on it for many years -in absolute secrecy-, using lots of classical sources as inspiration. With so much talent, he could have made something that had less suspicious elements in it, being more a crowd pleaser. And why would he have kept the manuscript untranslated for 4 years, until it was passed on to Winkler and later to Ottema? What was all the correspondence with Over de Linden needed for? If not honor or money, what was his motive?

3) How can Over de Linden's involvement be explained? (Have you read "Het geheim van het Oera-Linda-Boek" by M. de Jong, 1927?)

Quote
I mentioned this in the response on the blogs of one the topic-members and he even let the response through.
What blog was that and why would the owner not let your post through?

###

Posted 19 March 2016 - 01:37 PM
View PostOtt, on 06 March 2016 - 01:55 PM, said:
Title translated: historical notes and clarifications to the OLB

In this booklet, Ottema gives many examples of classical sources that confirm things that are mentioned in the OLB.
I made a list of these sources:

Bible: Genesis, Exodus, Numeri, Josua

Aelius Lampridius - Alexander Severus. 60

Arrianus - de expeditione Alexandri L.VI. 17,18,19,20,28; Hist. Indica c. 33

Caesar - Bell. Gall. I 31; III 12; VI 14,22,23,25

Aulus Cornelius Celsus - Lib. IV. 11

Dio Cassius - 53

Diodorus Siculus - V.27

Dionysius Halicarnassensis - L XIV

Festus Avienus - Ora maritima

Flavius Vopiscus - Aurel: 44; Numer: 13

Herodotus - L. V. 16; II. 125,126

Justinus - XLIII 3 (a°. 60O v. Ch.)

Livius - XXI. 8

Lucanus Pharsalia - 1. 445

Plinius - Hist. Nat. VIII 17; IX 57

Plutarchus - de Virt: Mulierum, Vol. 11 246; vita Demetrii p. 899; Epilogus ad vitam Antonii. p. 957

Pomponius Mela - I 5; III 6.

Strabo - II 99,102; IV 195; VII 291; XIV p. 712; XV 717; L I. 37,60

Suetonius Vitellius - 14.

Tacitus - Germ. 3,7,8,12,13,14,15,16,17,19,20,21,23,26,35,44; Hist. IV 61,65; Annal II. 6

Vegetius [1528,1781] - artis veterinariae L 111. 45 [Publius Vegetius Renatus around 450-500 AD]

Golumella - de re rustica, IV. 14 [Lucius Iunius Moderatus Columella, ovl. ca. 70 CE]

View PostOtt, on 19 March 2016 - 12:59 PM, said:
He would have had to work on it for many years -in absolute secrecy-, using lots of classical sources as inspiration.
In this thread we have found many more sources that confirm the OLB (some of which will not or hardly have been available in the 19th century.

Verwijs was a linguist who had to work for a living.

Would Verwijs have had the free time and motivation to use so many sources, and then also add and change things that were in that time (and still now for some) unbelievable for many. And if he had, what would have been his purpose? It just makes no sense.

The most simple explanation is usually the best and that is that Over de Linden got it in 1848 from his aunt or cousin, who had it from his grandfather Andries.

The paper looks like 13th Century Arabic paper, it has the same waterlines.
Why does the archive Tresoar not have this possibility checked?
It should be very easy.
That they don't is suspect.

If the paper is of the 19th century, it can still be a copy of an older original, but if the paper is medieval, it can hardly be a forgery.
(Then the ink would have to be carbon dated.)

###

Posted 19 March 2016 - 02:23 PM
View PostOtt, on 19 March 2016 - 12:59 PM, said:
As Jensma also points out, the language of the OLB does not correspond with Verwijs' ideas about certain etymologies.
Jensma (2004) "De Gemaskerde God", p. 306:
[Het] "... valt op, dat er maar zo weinig overeenkomsten zijn tussen Verwijs' oeuvre en het Oera Linda-boek." (It is striking, that there is so little correspondence between Verwijs' works and the OLB.)
 ###

Posted 19 March 2016 - 08:28 PM
View PostEll, on 19 March 2016 - 02:38 PM, said:
Anyone who argues the opposite clearly is wrong and therefore his arguments are of no interest whatsoever.
My position is different.
With all that I know now, I believe without doubts that OLB is authentic.
However, I am open to and interested in good arguments against the authenticity.
I don't fully exclude the possibility that I might be wrong after all.

###

Posted 19 March 2016 - 08:33 PM
View PostDemiurg, on 19 March 2016 - 05:01 PM, said:
The books of Verwijs and his involvement in main themes of the OLB are from the first half of the 1860ies, for specific themes like the indo-european languages its in the period 1859-1862.
They may be published before 1867, but does that mean he got and read them before that year?
He was a linguist. That he was interested in Indo-European languages, is in no way suspicious.

###

Posted 20 March 2016 - 08:34 AM
View PostDemiurg, on 20 March 2016 - 08:13 AM, said:
Breuker give other examples too,...
Does he (or do you) also have an explanation for how it came into the possession of Over de Linden and why Verwijs did not earlier either pass on the manuscript to someone else to translate or to withdraw it from public attention altogether?

###

Posted 20 March 2016 - 12:38 PM
Demiurg: "He thinks Over de Linden became involved through Haverschmidt, who was working in Den Helder in the early 1860ies. [...]"
OK, so that is more or less Jensma's theory which has been discussed at length here.
I find it all very far fetched and none of the arguments against authenticity are convincing to me.
I don't see any "hilarious satirical themes" as you call them.
It's only hilarious if you assume beforehand that it is fake.

But anyway, thanks for the book tip.
I will keep it in mind.

And always interested in new good arguments.

###

Posted 20 March 2016 - 09:16 PM
View PostDemiurg, on 20 March 2016 - 07:15 PM, said:
You don't see a historical problem with the narrative that Indo-European language is rooted in a culture that is brought to India by Frisians?
The "Indo-European" language model is based on similarities between Sanskrit and the European languages.
These similarities can be explained in different ways.
The languages can have a shared origin, or one can have been influenced by the other.

It is very well possible that the language in NW India was enriched by influences from NW Europe.
The same goes for Old Greek: the similarities can be explained by influences from NW Europe.

That we have more accepted written records from Greece and India creates the illusion that these languages are older, but it does not have to be so.

The language of the OLB could very well be the main shared ancestor of German, Dutch, Frisian, Danish, Swedish, Norse, Icelandic, English. If it is a 19th century fabrication, it is an utterly good reconstruction.

To speak of Frisian may be misleading. People tend to think of the Dutch province Friesland and if they are better informed, they know that there is the region Westfriesland in North-Holland, East- and Northfriesland in NW-Germany. Floris II, comes (graaf, count) of Frisia started to call himself "comes de Hollant" in 1100 ('his' territory not having changed).

It is known that Frisians settled in places where they traded. What is now the Netherlands must have been a very strategic area: river delta (Rhine going deep into Germany), sweet and salt water, much wood (oak, perfect for ship-building), etc.

I would refer to these people as proto-Frisians or Fryas as per OLB. The same way how nowaday Friesland is much smaller that that of the early Middle Ages, it can have been bigger and more significant in earlier ages.

###


Tony S. Posted 20 March 2016 - 09:41 PM
View PostDemiurg, on 20 March 2016 - 07:15 PM, said:
In a way you can say that, but apart from the three creators en the dating, Breuker has another view on many points.
And the similarities he found between the themes of OLB and the themes Verwijs highlighted in his books is an important and new addition to the OLB-iterature.
That's why I was so amazed that nothing of it has entered this threat.

You don't see a historical problem with the narrative that Indo-European language is rooted in a culture that is brought to India by Frisians?
Nowhere in the OLB does it state that the Indo-European languages, as a group, were introduced to India by Frisians. What it does say is that a group of Frisians settled in the Punjab in the 16th century BC and formed a colony. The languages spoken around them by the native inhabitants may well have been Indo-European too, or Indo-European languages may have been introduced to India in some other way. The OLB is completely silent on the issue, and does not imply that the Indo-European languages spoken in India today are descended from the language of the Frisian colonists. Quite the reverse, since it makes it clear that the Frisian colony never extended beyond the Punjab, and was extinguished by Alexander, who never went further into India than the Punjab area. Furthermore, the colony may well not have covered the whole of the Punjab, and might have been quite small, as would be implied by its small population, that could be evacuated in a fleet of ships. Perhaps it was just a single city or small district.

###

Posted 20 March 2016 - 11:10 PM
Well said.
Adding to that, they would have been there for 1224 years and explored all the seas they could find, which is a long time to leave some linguistic traces.

p.120:
NEI THÀT WI 12 MEL 100 ÀND TWIA.12 JÉR
BI THA FIF WÉTRUM SÉTEN HÉDE
THAHWILA VSA SÉ.KÀMPAR
ALLE SÉA BIFÁREN HÉDE THÉR TO FINDANE.

###

Posted 21 March 2016 - 11:12 AM
View PostTony S., on 21 March 2016 - 12:51 AM, said:
The Frisian colonists in the Punjab called themselves the Gertmanna. Interestingly, Strabo mentions a group who lived in India called the Germanes.
Another possible reference:
GERMANIOI (also Karmanians, Carmanians), name of an ancient Persian tribe engaged in farming (Herodotus 1.125). Since this is the only mention of this name by Herodotus (it is absent from his list of Darius’s tributaries and Xerxes’s contingents), one may identify it with the name of Karmanioi, mentioned by Stephanus of Byzantium (Pauly-Wissowa, X/2, cols. 1955-56). Nearchus later refered to them as inhabitants of Carmania (q.v.), and observed that “they lived like the Persians, with whom they were neighbors and were similarly equipped for war” (Indica 38.1).source
 ###


Posted 21 March 2016 - 12:43 PM
View PostDemiurg, on 21 March 2016 - 12:17 PM, said:
...Ottersma who speculated ...
His name was Ottema.

Quote
This is so silly, because it sounds Sanskit in the first place. Words/names ending with -gara is quite typical in Sanskrit.
Why is that "silly"? There may still be a relation to the Frisian GARA.

Quote
Obviously it is a alteration of the Babel Tower-story where all different languages is seen as an moral corruption of mankind.
How is this obvious? Only if one first assumes that OLB is a modern fabrication. Otherwise, it can just be another source referring to a similar principle.

Quote
Eelco Verwijs was in the early 1860ies studying/interested in this thesis
Many more people will have been interested, specially linguists. Does that make them all suspects?

###

Posted 21-22 March 2016 - 01:37 PM
About the Punjab colony

Fragments in the Oera Linda Book

[072/01] - [075/07] About the Gértmanna
(Ottema/ Sandbach p.100-105)

[120/15] - [130/20] Ljudgért's diary
(Ottema/ Sandbach p.164-177)

[163/15] - [168/19] Ljudgért's letter
(Ottema/ Sandbach p.220-227)

Comments about these fragments

1) Ottema (1872) "Thet Oera Linda Bok": see Introduction p.XIII-XVII. In translation Sandbach (1876), this is p.XII-XVI

2) Ottema (1873) "Geschiedkundige aanteekeningen en ophelderingen bij Thet Oera Linda Bok" (historic notes and clarifications; new translations by me)

P.90 [064/14]: SKRIFFILT
In Strabo XV.717, Nearchus reports to Alexander, that in the lower Indus of India there is a people that does not write on palm leaves, but "on heavily compressed cotton"; that must be writing felt. The further description of this people indicates that he refers to Frisian settlers (Gértmen).

P.104 [074/18]: THRUCH THA STRÉTE
Strabo L.I.37. Eratosthenes wrote, that in earlier times the land at the pillars of Hercules had not separated yet, and that ... (see intro in first ed. 1872)

P.104 [074/20] PANG.AB
Remarkable is that this name Pentshab here only refers to the rivers (... weak argument)

P.164 [120/13] FON UT SIN DÉI.BOK
The content of Liudgért's diary is confirmed by the travel journal of Nearchus which is partly saved by Arrianus in "Anabasis Alexandrou".
Nearchus writes, that the land between the arms of the Indus was called "Pattala" in the Indian language, but the inhabitants called it "Delta", indicating that they were Frisians, since "delte" means "low land" in Frisian. He further  names their city Pattala, but he is wrong, since Arrianus (Periplus Erythraei maris) names Minnagara as the city of Pattalene. (See my introduction p. XIV.) Nearchus does not name Wichhirte and Liudgert, but he distinguishes them as firts and second commander: "archón" and "hyparchos" for seaking and rear admiral.

[120/24] BRUDA HINNA
Arrianus L.VI.17. Alexander was informed that the second commander of the Pattalians had fled and left the land with most of his people, which made Alexander hurry to get there.

[120/32] SÉR KINDLIK SNAKKANDE
Arrianus VI.17. The supreme commander of the Pattalians submitted his land, himself, and all that was his to him, but Alexander restored him in his territory and ordered him to prepare for welcoming his army.

[121/20] LÉT THA SKÉPA HALA
Arrianus VI.17. When he arrived at Pattala he found the city and the land deserted, so he sent some troops to chase the refugees and when he had captured some, he sent them to the others, to reassure them, that they could return without fear, as they were permitted to remain in their city and farm the land as before. Thus most of them returned.

[122/07] HÉDER THÉR OF SKÉPA MÁKAD
Arrianus VI.18. So he had other ships built, and sent light armored troops to the area that was closer to the coast; there he found some of the Indians, who further showed them the way.

[122/08] NW WILDER SELVA SÉ.KÉNING WERTHA
Arrianus VI.19. He himself sailed out of the mouth of the Indus, into the ocean, saying that he wanted to see if there was more land to be found, close in that sea. But I think it was mostly, to be able to say that he had sailed on the great sea, beyond India.
[122/14] TIMBER HLOTHA
Arrianus VI.18. There Alexander had a shipyard and carpentry sheds built. And VI 20. Hephaestion was hired to supervise the building of the shipyard and the carpentry sheds.

[122/30] VMB.EN NY THORP TO MAKJANDE
Arrianus VI.20. Returning to the ships, he sailed to Pattala and had another shipyard and other carpentry sheds built.

[123/01] VMBE ÉNE BURCH TO BVWANDE
Arrianus VI.18. He ordered Hephaestion to build a burgh in Pattala. And 19: Returning to Pattala, he saw that the burgh had been built.

[123/14] NY.GÉRT.MANJA
In Carmania, Arrianus "Hist. Indica" c.33. They arrived in a place called Neoptana and 100 stadia further at the river Anamis and the city Harmozia. They went ashore there and rested happily of the many efforts.

[123/18] NÉARCHUS GVNG WAL VP
Arrianus "Anabasis Alexandrou" VI.28. Nearchus reached the shore of Carmanie and went to Alexander with a small group, reporting all he had seen on his sea voyage.

[123/18] ÀND BÉIDE THRJA DÉGA
Alexander soon sent him back to the fleet, to sail further to Susiana and the mouth of the Tigris.

[125/12] DEMÉTRIUS
Antigonus mastered Phoenicia, to be able to build fleets; he sent his son Demetrius against Ptolomey, but Demetrius was defeated near Gaza (312 BCE). A general peace was established, but when Ptolomey took Cyprus (Salamis), Demetrius chased him away after a bloody seabattle (307 BCE); still he could not conquer Egypt (306 BCE); he then turned to Rhodos (305 BCE), attacked the city, whose inhabitants were allies of Ptolomey, for a long time in vain, which resulted him to be nicknamed Poliocretes (the besieger). (Dornseiffen, Grieken p.210)

[126/08] DEMÉTRIUS WÉRE WL ÀND VNSÉD.LIK
About Demetrius' immorality, see the long list of abominations, recorded by Plutarchus "Vita Demetrii" p.899.

[127/25] THA BERN DÉDE LIK.RA BIFÁLEN WARTH
Plutarchus Epilogus "Ad Vitam Antonii" p.957. Demetrius forced the most beautiful and chaste youth to end his life, to escape from being raped.

[130/17] THRJA MÔNATHA
Pytheas sailed in four months from Massilia to Thule (Norway). Lelewel Pytheas (1836) p.37.

###

Posted 21 March 2016 - 02:46 PM
View PostDemiurg, on 21 March 2016 - 12:57 PM, said:
To understand the OLB, that's crucial information.
You mean: to understand it in the way you do (as being a 19th century fabrication)

Quote
With the knowledge we have at the moment about what went on in the Netherlands 3500 years ago (not much), it's not.
Do you mean not much knowledge or not much went on?
And why would it not be possible "that the language in NW India was enriched by influences from NW Europe"?

Quote
We can only speak of things we have sources for. The real illusion here is to think you can make all sorts of claims as long as there is no evidence against it.
We can make theories and hypotheses, based on reason. My "claim" was based on the fact that languages are older than their written records of it. Example: Aboriginals in Australia spoke their language long before it was first written down in the last century or so.

Quote
No, it can not. The close relation in syntax with modern germanic languages (mainly modern Dutch/Frisian) excludes that possibility.
Why? The syntax of modern Germanic languages may in fact look much more like the old dialects, than the improvised, Latin-inspired language that the monks wrote, when they tried to create a written form of the language of the "people" (thjuds, diets, deutsch, dutch). They had learned to read and write in Latin, which is not a spoken language (what common people speak), but a lingua franca, to carry information, similar to our computer language, or the 'language' used in tweets.

Quote
Not only experts should be able to read it and therefor it's good. It looks old and ordinary folks with some knowledge of modern Frisian could easily read it.
Verwijs wrote several times to Over de Linden (a.o.)  that he had problems translating (being an expert!!!). That is why it was delayed 5 years until finally Ottema did it. I will find these letter fragments and post them. It is good evidence against Verwijs' involvement.

###

Posted 21 March 2016 - 03:20 PM
View PostDemiurg, on 21 March 2016 - 02:27 PM, said:
That's not an assumption, but a conclusion drawn from my reading of the text en the relevant literature.
Then read it like this:
It's only "obvious" if you have already concluded the OLB is a fake.

After all, the theme of a primal common language that later degenerates into many varieties is very well possible in an other genuine old text. The old testament does not have to be the only and oldest source for that.

###


Posted 21 March 2016 - 04:01 PM
Some facts that undermine the theory in which Verwijs would have been involved in creating the OLB.

A. Fragment of "Friesche Oudheden", Published by the Friesch Genootschap (1875) Page 48-50 (translated):
 The Over de Linden family in Den Helder has an old manuscript, of which script, language and content are unknown. It was passed on from generation to generation, with the advice to keep it with care, as a family-treasure. The owner thought it was written in Old-Frisian, and that it might contain information about ancient ancestors.
When Dr. Eelco Verwijs, archivist-biblothecarian of Fryslân, heard about this, he informed the government. He was instructed to examine it. On 17 December 1867 he reported his first conclusions. The owner has given him permission to transcribe and translate the manuscript.
Thanks to the persevering zeal and care of Dr. Jan Ottema, the content was understood and translated. In detail he reported the results of his accurate examination in a meeting of the Frisian Society on 10 February 1871. This report was printed and distributed, and lead to a great common interest in this curious piece.
B. Correspondence Verwijs

1867 June 28 - Verwijs to J.F. Jansen
"This morning I copied a whole speech which is not all clear to me yet, but which, as far as I could judge from the copy, is most curious."

1867 Oct. 13 - Verwijs to C. Over de Linden
"As I said, I was overjoyed with the discovery and told many of my friends. Part of it was quite easy to understand and, although seeming to be of younger age, not different from the language of the Old Frisian laws from the 13th and 14th century. But there were also fragments, that I didn't and still don't understand and that will take much meticulous study, before I can clarify them."

1867 Oct. 16 - Verwijs to Over de Linden
"I really can't promise you the translation of a separate part, as there are difficulties in it, that may take weeks of study." and "may I do a proposal to negotiate with you about selling it?"

1867 Oct. 17 - Over de Linden to Verwijs
"One can´t take an inherited family treasure, that is advised to be protected in this way, from ones children, so it can´t be sold. [...] I don´t want to sell it for any price"

1867 Oct. 19 - Verwijs to Over de Linden
"It certainly is a manuscript from one of your ancestors - which means your family is very old - , that was copied many times and by all means deserves to become known. [...] The importance of the manuscript will give the ancient name of the Oera Linda's a radiance, brighter than any of the oldest noble families."

1867 Dec. 17 - Verwijs to the Provincial Executive of Friesland
"He demanded explicitly that the old manuscript would first all be translated for him. When this was done, and he knew the content, he would by no means object publication, as long as it did not contain anything that could compromise his family."

1868 Nov. 21 - Verwijs to Over de Linden
"The case is of enough interest to me, to finally dive into it properly."

1869 May 17 - Verwijs to Over de Linden
"Then I hope to take the whole with me in this summer holiday and start translating."

1869 Nov. 11 - Verwijs to Over de Linden
"I finally return the manuscript to you, but you will be sorry that the translation is still missing. [...] Here and there translation is very easy and it can be done at first sight; but other parts contain difficulties, that take much time and study. But I hope to be able to help you soon now."

1869 Nov. 11 - Verwijs to J. Winkler
"Here and there translation is easy, but there are also quite some difficulties and unknown words. I know that if I would start, I would not rest before I have solved them, and that way I would spend much too much time on it. [...] The case is of much interest to me, so I don't want to fully withdraw from it. [...] Such an etymological quest is very much of my liking, [...] It's odd that it contains some very old words and that also the forms point at a previous linguistic era, while other expressions sound so very modern."
[Verwijs could not (or hardly) imagine that some expressions were old, which does not prove that they could not in fact have been old.]

###

Posted 21 March 2016 - 04:45 PM
View PostDemiurg, on 21 March 2016 - 03:55 PM, said:
It's really striking how much the OLB says about the 19th century and how little about older times.
It literally says nothing about the 19th century, things can merely be interpreted as such.
That it says little about older times is a bold statement.
Dr. Arthur Hübner (1934) mainly saw many references to the French Revolution.
What you find much depends on what you are looking for.
In history certain themes keep repeating themselves. One might as well theorise that the OLB is all about the time we are living in right now.

Quote
I mean that not much went on, let's say before Roman times.
Based on the little archaeological finds and written sources? There was perfect oak wood here and other materials that don't last. It is not impossible that much more went on here than most of us imagine. It is not impossible that the things described in the OLB actually happened near the North Sea coast.

... argument from incredulity, which is a fallacy (variant of argument from ignorance):
P is too incredible (or: I cannot imagine how P could possibly be true); therefore P must be false.


Quote
Because if the region was a seafaring culture before (!) vedic times, we should know it.
There should also be a serious urban and therefore literary culture.
We know quite certain there wasn't.
How can we be so certain? The medieval establishment is very well known for its burning of (even Christian) books that were considered heretical. If not burnt or otherwise lost, much may be hiding in private collections. What we have is  a fraction of what must have existed.

Quote
I guess you have no alpha- but a beta-background.
I'm a historian and can tell that it doesn't work like that. beta's start with hypotheses, alpha's (at least historians) start with sources.
You connect bits of information from sources with each other with reason. You don't take one bit from a source and speculate till you have a story.

Let's say the OLB is authentic, then we have one medieval Frisian claiming his grand-grand-grandfathers lived in India. In the field, nobody would take you serious if you take take claim for a fact without a broader case based in sources. And thats when we assume the OLB to be authentic.
Yes, at highschool and university I was more into the hard sciences. But I have also done (self-educated) research in archives (started with family history).

So, starting from sources, why can't one take the so-called 'fantastic' Frisian historiography and the OLB as sources and check the similarities and differences with each other and with other classical sources, like we have done much in this thread?

I know, you will say that the OLB is also based on this alleged fantasy based historiography.

So let's not call it "history" (as in the university taught 'science'), but analysis of sources. (And OLB's paper should be properly investigated, finally.)

Quote
But we know how germanic languages have developed...
You are talking about written language, not spoken.
De Haan Hettema was a (much published) specialist in Old Frisian, including the dialects, and he concluded that the OLB language was the purest and oldest he could imagine.

Quote
The syntax of OLB is more like modern Dutch than like middle Dutch.
German and Dutch syntax are also very similar. The rural dialects would all have 'evolved' (or degenerated) in the same way. These dialects are more likely to reflect the medieval language than these written sources. (I have read many too. Much of it is poetry, official or religious texts.) So Why did Verwijs have so much trouble translating it then?

Quote
I could read the OLB right away the first time I opened it. The idea that it took a heavyweight expert as Verwijs 5 years to see through the OLB is just impossible. Maybe you should consider the possibility that he lied.
You had a translation at hand from the start.
We are still making improvements in this thread.
If he lied, he risked losing his reputation.
He was also busy with other things, I know, and he feared being fooled. Those are other reasons why he may have hesitated to dive deeper into it.

###

Posted 21 March 2016 - 06:01 PM
Another significant letter that does not fit in the hoax theory:

1877 May 4 - Dr. J.G. Ottema to L.F. Over de Linden
These days I realised something concerning Beckering Vinckers' accusation of a cunningly devised plan.
Your father did not have a plan to have the manuscript printed or made public. Under pressure of Verwijs, and when the content was still unknown to him, he had initially agreed, but when he got disappointed that Verwijs did not keep his promise [to translate the manuscript], your father believed he was no longer bound to the permission he had given. Please read our letters from early 1871 (I think), and you will see how he resisted with tooth and nail against my plan for publication. Someone who wants to mislead the world would not do that, he would have grabbed the opportunity to carry out his deception with both hands. Kuipers [the printer] and I almost had to force him, and harsh words were exchanged.

###


Posted 22 March 2016 - 03:24 PM
Standing by itself, the following could have been rejected as far-fetched, but in the context of the bigger picture, it might be significant indeed.

From Ottema (1876) "De Deventer Courant en het Oera Linda Boek" (Deventer Newspaper and the OLB), p.12

Translated by me:
The writing of Dela-Hellenia [OLB p.134-141]0 is one of the most remarkable parts. I named her Burgh-maiden or Mother of the Geartmen. That these Geartmen, named Patalians by the Greek writers, had a Mother (in dialects pronounced: Moer), appears from Quintus Curtius Rufus; Book IX, chapter 8, line 28: "Rex erat MOERIS" (their king was Moeris). For he read from the Greek historians: ΑΥΤΩΝ ΕΒΑΣΙΛΕΥΣΕ ΜΟΕΡΙΣ, and he translated εβασιλευσε as rex erat (was king), not considering that βασιλευειν (to rule) can also be said of a woman. It is unclear from whom Curtius has this information; Ptolemy, Megasthenes, Nearchus or Hephaestion. Perhaps the latter noted, that the Patalians for important matters sought Moderis réd (advice, consent or command of the Mother), and assumed, that Moderis (or Moeris) was the name of the one (unknown to him) with the highest authority, which made him write ΜΟΕΡΙΣ as as if it were a name. This is how Curtis got his "rex Moeris", unknowingly and unconsciously saving for us the memory of a Mother of the Geartmen.
Original text:
Het geschrift van Dela-Hellenia is een van de merkwaardigste stukken. Ik noemde haar Burgtmaagd of Moeder bij de Geertmannen. Dat die Geertmannen, bij de Grieksche schrijvers Pattaliers genoemd, eene Moeder (verkort Moer) hadden, blijkt uit Curtius Lib.IX.c.8. Eorum rex erat MOERIS. Hij las namelijk bij zijne Grieksche berichtgevers: ΑΥΤΩΝ ΕΒΑΣΙΛΕΥΣΕ ΜΟΕΡΙΣ, en vertaalde εβασιλευσε door rex erat, niet bevroedende dat βασιλευειν ook van eene vrouw kon gezegd worden. Het blijkt niet bepaald van wien Curtius dit bericht heeft, Ptolomeus, Megasthenes, Nearchus of Hephaestion. Misschien wel de laatste heeft opgemerkt, dat de Pattaliers bij alle belangrijke zaken Moderis rêd (raad, goedvinden of bevel) inwonnen, en gemeend, dat Moderis (Moeris) de naam was van die met het hoogste gezag bekleede (hem onbekende) persoon, en zoo heeft hij ΜΟΕΡΙΣ als eigennaam geschreven. Op die wijze is Curtius aan dien rex Moeris gekomen, waardoor hij onwetend en onbewust voor ons de herinnering aan eene Moeder bij de Geertmannen bewaard heeft.
Also interesting, just to remind us of the area and time that it is about, from "The Invasion of India by Alexander the Great" (1816):

 ###

Posted 24 March 2016 - 04:49 PM
View PostOtt, on 23 March 2016 - 07:04 PM, said:
... the booklet by Hübner.
... De Haan Hettema.
PDF's of both sources can now be found here:
1935 Hübner (German): http://fryskednis.bl...-ura-linda.html
1871 De Haan Hettema (Dutch): http://fryskednis.bl...ttema-1871.html

Relevant part of the second text (not yet translated):
Het stuk is in de Friesche Taal geschreven; eene onderscheiding tusschen oud-Friesch en Land- of Boere Friesch ken ik niet. Ik kan alleen eene oudere en nieuwere spelling van die taal, want de uitspraak van het Friesch is nagenoeg nog dezelfde als voor eenige eeuwen, hetgeen dan ook de wereldberoemde taalkenner de Deen Professor R. Rask in zijne Friesche spraakleer heeft aangetoond, door ons de klanken van het Friesch in de Hss. voorkomende, te geven, zoo als die taalkundig behooren uitgesproken te worden, en die thans nog nagenoeg dezelfde zijn.

Wat nu de spelling in dit stuk voorkomende betreft, deze is, in mijn oog, veel meer overeenkomstig de oudere en zeer regelmatig, en veel beter en regelmatiger, dan van hen, die thans de taal schrijven; zoodat het te wenschen ware, dat men in de hoofdzaak die spelling overnam, dan zoude er meer eenheid in die spelling komen en het oorspronkelijke van de taal, beter dan nu, bewaard blijven. Thans schrijft men het met Hollandsche klanken, en in den hedendaagschen Hollandschen schrijftrant. Doch dit is niet te verwonderen. Geen der latere schrijvers in die taal, Gijsbert Japiks en de Gebroeders Halbertsma niet uitgezonderd, hebben zich volstrekt niet om de spelling van het in de Hss. voorkomend Friesch bekommerd. Alleen T. R. Dijkstra en voornamelijk de te vroeg ontslapen, H. S. Sijtstra waren het, die het spoor der ouden zoo veel mogelijk trachtten te volgen, en de waarde van die spelling niet uit het oog verloren.

Bovendien vinden wij reeds in onze photografiën eenige thans niet algemeen meer bekende woorden, die in het overige van dit geschrift wel zullen voorkomen en daardoor onze Friesche Woordenschat zouden kunnen aanvullen.

Ik beschouw het dus in de eerste plaats van belang om dit stuk in den Frieschen tekst door den druk bekend te maken; maar ook in de tweede plaats, — als men volgens het verslag den inhoud aanneemt, die zoo wel uit een Godsdienstig, als uit een Geschiedkundig oogpunt niet van belang ontbloot schijnt te zijn, — dat er dan ook eene Hollandsche vertaling bijgevoegd worde, om ook niet-Friezen met diens inhoud bekend te maken.
 ###

Posted 25 March 2016 - 09:35 AM
View PostThe Puzzler, on 25 March 2016 - 06:29 AM, said:
Unexpected and gruesome battle 1250BC involved 4000 men across Northern Europe.
Great find. Relevant evidence for us may be (or have been) unearthed. I will investigate this further.
This points to a warrior class and participation in war across Europe—previously unheard of, Science says. There are historical descriptions of Bronze Age epic battles from the Near East and Greece, but there has been little archaeological evidence found of any large-scale battles. And there are of course no written records from Northern Europe from the time.
Haha!

###

Posted 25 March 2016 - 12:51 PM
View PostDemiurg, on 23 March 2016 - 06:40 PM, said:
... if you read the passages about ancient times, most of the times it tells more about 19th century mentality than about those ancient times.
Since we know so little about ancient mentality, how can we know? Ancient mentality may in fact have been very different from what most of us imagine. It may be much more similar to ours in some important ways. Again I refer to Hübner, who mostly saw similarities to the times of the French Revolution.

Quote
But the fantastic Frisian history and OLB must be considered as sources, but they are in the first place sources of the time in which they were written.
Who decides what they are in the first, second and third place? Even if they say something about ancient times only in the third place, they remain something that can (and should) be investigated.

Quote
Before there were rules, before there was something you could type as a standard-language, (in Dutch before the 'Statenbijbel') their was no real difference between written and spoken language.
There were also many more dialects than there are now. The language of the OLB could have been one of them and it could indeed be ancient.

Quote
What I said, you should consider that he might have lied.
Trying to make the government pay for the purchase and research of something that you know to be fake, is not just "lying", it is fraud. He was a young scholar with a family, living in Friesland and ambitious to make promotion (which he later did). For this hoax theory to work, he must have been insane (like many others who would have had to be involved). Even if he was confident that they would not find out by themselves, Over de Linden was known to sometimes drink to much and talk about things he should not. He could have put Verwijs in the risk of being excluded from any serious career, or even of being jailed for fraud.

###

Posted 25 March 2016 - 01:59 PM


Frisiabones = FRYAS.BERN (children of Frya)?

(Note: BERN is also spelled BÀRN)
wiki: The Frisiavones (also Frisævones or Frisiabones) were a tribe living near the northern border of Roman Gaul possibly related to the nearby Frisii, who in turn are traditionally considered to be ancestors of modern Frisians. There is very little known about them, but they appear to have resided in the area of modern southern Netherlands, possibly in two distinct areas, one in the islands of the river deltas of Holland, and one to the south of it.
In the OLB, a split is described between the followers of Friso and the more traditional Fryas, who often referred to themselves as Fryasbern. Bern equates with born (Dutch: (ge-)boren), which can easily shift to or sound like bon (in Roman ears).

Are the Frisiavones or -bones the last known trace (by name) of the children of Frya?

###

Posted 26 March 2016 - 09:37 AM
Some interesting fragments to consider, from a letter by Cornelis Over de Linden to Dr. Ottema (June 11, 1872)
In your translation I read: "Oh dear, never let the eyes of a monk gaze upon this script, they speak sweet words, but... etc."

From this fear of monks I dare conclude, that they had already captured many of our old manuscripts. I also dare believe that the Over de Lindens have not been the only ones, who possessed the book of Adela Follistar. When I follow the history of the manuscript, I dare assume that the Romans, the Phoenicians, the Greeks and all Mediterranean peoples learned the letterscript from us.

[...]

That the monks, who have invented their own letterscript, stifled ours to make it unreadable, lies in their nature. But who knows how many Copies of the book of Adela's Folstar remain here and elsewhere with kings or in Rome. Now that more than a thousand years have passed, they may have introduced the walking script as capitals, because they are similar to our capitals.
###

Posted 28 March 2016 - 04:04 PM
View PostDemiurg, on 27 March 2016 - 08:28 AM, said:
OLB ... says a lot about 19th century mentality.
There are people who believe that the Bible says a lot about our present time.
There are people who read messages in the number plates of passing cars.
Once more: Dr. Hübner mainly saw references in the OLB to the mentality of late 18th century French revolutionaries.

Quote
... it's inconceivable that a regional variation that is so different from the others, comes to us in just one source.
The only so-called linguistic study of the OLB is the pamphlet by Beckering Vinckers (1876). Have you read it and can you summarise his arguments? They are bogus, IMO. He was a teacher English who would later translate a book about linguistics. Other, more qualified specialists came to a very different conclusion, namely that the OLB language could very well be authentic old Frisian. To name a few, Old Frisian expert De Haan Hettema, classicist Dr. Ottema and Prof. Dr. Maußer (Germanic, Old Nordic and Indo-Germanic philologist).

Quote
Scientific fraud is from all times. It happens.
He could not gain from it, only loose. Have you read "De namen der vrouw bij den Germaan" (the Germanic words for 'woman') 1865, by him. It should be full of links to OLB, but it's not and nor is any of his other work.

###

FromFinland Posted 29 March 2016 - 01:52 AM
In my earlier posts, I have mostly highlighted the thematic similarities between the Dutch Oera Linda book of the Over de Linden family and the Finnish Väinämöinen's mythology and Bock saga, both of the Boxström family. I have here a short snippet about the Irminsaga of the Austro-Hungarian Wiligut family, which we'll compare to other sources. I recommend everyone interested on the topic to look for the Stephen Flowers' excellent English language book from 2001, as it costs only 9 dollars!

We'll start with a short citation from Adolf Schleipfer, writing in Irminsul 1982:

Of course, proof of the authenticity – in the academic sense – of the Wiligut-traditions will hardly be found, as this uncertainty lies in the nature of the material and so there will certainly be a tug-of-war over these traditions similar to that surrounding the Ura-Linda Chronik. (Flowers 2001, 126.)

As I consider mr. Schleipfer's take on matter to be somewhat pessimistic, we'll take a comparative look on the material at hand. Let's begin with a SS document from 17th day of June 1936, marked read by mr. Himmler. Text deals with the evolution of human species and is presented as of very mythical nature. I concentrate on themes more familiar to our previous studies:

The secret tradition of the Wiligotis-clan Asa-Uanas is called "Irminsaga" and it provides the following description of the seven epochs.
This saga was recorded on seven Runo-wooden tablets (of oak) in ancient Aryan linear script supplemented by images. These were, however, destroyed along with other family documents of similar nature in 1848 when three houses belonging to the military retiree K. M. Wiligut were burned.  (These houses in Ofen were being defended from Hungarian rebels by General Henzi, who was killed in the effort.)
K. Wiligut could therefore only hand these traditions down orally to his descendants (always the oldest son), so that, for example, the question is unresolved as to how the traditions could have been succesfully transmitted from one human epoch to another.

[...]

In this [4th] epoch comes about breat knowledge of astrology, which has been transmitted to us through the secret sciences. There were 2 main races: red-skins and moors …
Besides these there were those with white hair and red eyes – albinos – who had great longevity, but who were not very numerous. They are said to have invented pictography, and together with the red-skins to have originated the Runo-script. But all three main races fiercely fought against the ”beast-men” – who mainly mated with the moors.

[...]

5TH HUMAN EPOCH:
The period of transition from the 4th to the 5th epoch lasted for millenia!
Few humans survived despite the possibilities for fleeing into the interior spaces of earth – everywhere where the earth held ”fast,” ostensibly only one couple remained … And since they were together, cut off from any news, they thought they were the only ones …
But from the moon [Kleid] there descended once more human beings with their enormous remnants (see Jacob's ladder!). They called themselves Asa and had a significantly longer life-span than the Uana. And they oppressed the Uana and robbed them of their women, because they had saved none of their own. The earth once more turned green, the sky blue, the water bright, and Got-Hari's eye – the sun – one more shone through the clouds and Ka-Os diminished …
And now gradually they [Aesir and Vanir] began not having to kill each other in order to eat, because there were also animals, plants and moss ... And the "wise" once more dispensed their "wisdom" and organised the clans ... And the Asa established "Eden" with the Uana in Asgard and the "Asa" no longer fought the "Uana", for Freyr and Faja became one and became Ymir and Frey and Fraya ... And the earth swung out  and the Asa-Uana children migrated out upon the Atta-lant and wrote their history and even gave the word to the "wise in support", so that they would never forget, how Got created humanity ..."
And the ”wise” spoke and ”Weiskuning's” advisor spoke to the folk of ”Teut” – the great one, who spoke the Runo – the word from Got, and announced when the run of terrestrial Got-man would be completed: Yet to come are the 6th and 7th holy humanity …
And they returned together homeward to the eye of Gôt, to the Su(on), which is eternal from Ur through Ru to Ur, as the history of humanity proves! Got grant it!

FOR THE AUTHENTICITY OF THE TRADITION:
Note: The last part – the 5th epoch – is almost word for word an identical respresentation of an oral report taken from the retired military officer K. Wiligut who died in his 89th year (1883). (Flowers 2001, 98-102.)

Let's tear this citation apart part by part:

The [1] secret tradition of the Wiligotis-clan [2] Asa-Uanas is called "Irminsaga" and it provides the following description of the [3] seven epochs.

# 1: The Väinämöinen's mythology of Boxström tradition is likewise of allegedly secretive type. As per the story, it was never publicly told as complete story outside the Aesir family in heathen times, though parts of it came to the wider spread and were common to the rest of the Nordic culture.

# 2: The Aesir-Vanir family is a common Nordic theme, as seen in Heimskringla, Väinämöinen's mythology and others sources.

# 3: This reminds of the Väinämöinen's mythology that has about 6 to 9 time periods, depending on the calculation method (paradise: creation of mountains, arrival of tropical plants, arrival of eel, arrival of frogs, arrival of apes, arrival of humans; start of ice age or first ragnarök; time after the end ice age or second ragnarök; time after third ragnarök). Moreover, the Norse mythology of Prose and Poetic Eddas separates likewise time to pre- and post-Ragnarökian times. One could also divide time by birth of Ask and Embla, or Ginnungagap.

K. Wiligut could therefore only hand these traditions down orally to his descendants ([4] always the oldest son), so that, for example, the question is unresolved as to how the traditions could have been succesfully transmitted from one human epoch to another.

# 4: Just as officer and magnate Franz Karl Wiligut handed the story down to his oldest son Karl Maria Wiligut, who was likewise a military officer, so did sea captain Knut Victor Boxström hand down his family tradition to to his eldest son Rafael Boxström, who was  killed while serving as member of White Guard. Whereas Väinämöinen's mythology is mentioned as never having been written down in olden days times, unlike Oera Linda tradition and Irminsaga, I personally suspect it was, for it mentions three separate writing methods (capitals, longhand and runes) in heathen context. 

In this [4th] epoch comes about breat knowledge of [5] astrology, which has been transmitted to us through the secret sciences. [6] There were 2 main races: red-skins and moors …
Besides these there were those with white hair and red eyes – albinos – [7] who had great longevity, [8] but who were not very numerous. [9] They are said to have invented pictography, and together with the red-skins to have originated the Runo-script. But all three main races fiercely fought against the [10] ”beast-men” – who mainly mated with the moors.

# 5: astrology as such and by that name is also mentioned in the Väinämöinen's mythology, with the word's etymology being given as 'Aesir-faith-logi' (Bock 1996, 51-52).

# 6: here we have the three races, just as Oera Linda has three races of people. A 'moor' can mean both a person of an Arabic or African race. In Väinämöinen's mythology part of the Bock saga there are in addition to the three Nordic white races 10 different tropical races, latter of which "piiking", "narkassul" and "sulttaani" are mentioned explicitly by name as living closest to the Finnic race (Bock 1996, 56-57). Whereas Irminsaga here has the origins of the white race in albinism, the Väinämöinen's mythology puts the origins of the Nordic white race at isolation from rest of the human race, hinting at similar origins.

# 7: Greek and Roman authors have the Nordic Hyperboreans as of long-lasting age.

# 8: As is evindent by a look at the world today and is seen also thematically in the amount of the tropical races at point six above.

# 9: Again, here have the whites invent the writing systems, just as in the Oera Linda book and Väinämöinen's mythology. Wheras in Oera Linda book also the yellow Finda's people do have a writing system, so here are the runes invented together with the non-white 'red-skins'.

# 10: Likewise, Heimskringla has the following to tell on the Nordic lands, my bolding:

In Swithiod are many great domains, and many races of men, and many kinds of languages. There are giants, and  there are dwarfs, and there are also blue men, and there are any kinds  of stranger creatures.  There are huge wild beasts, and dreadful dragons.

We continue with the source text:

The period of transition from the 4th to the 5th epoch [11] lasted for millenia!
Few humans survived despite the possibilities for [12] fleeing into the interior spaces of earth – everywhere where the earth held ”fast,” ostensibly [13] only one couple remained … And since they were together, [14] cut off from any news, they thought they were the only ones

# 11: not only do we find such thousand year transition periods from late Antiquity Christianity and Zoroastrianism, the Aesir of the Väinämöinen's mythology dwelled in the Baltic island of Gotland for millenia in the time period between the second ragnarök and settlement of Finnish coast (Bock 1996, 63). Oera Linda book describes time in thousand year units, or 'spokes of Jol'.

# 12: in the Väinämöinen's mythology the Aesir survive by sending Rafael and Sara, their children (12 sons, 7 daughters) along with their best friends, to hide in the Lummelunda cave of Gotland island, so as not to perish in the receding of the ice masses at the end of the last ice age, or 'second ragnarök' (Bock 1996, 63).

# 13: this is the international story of Noah, Gylfaginning story of giants Bergelmir plus his wife, and the Rafael and Sara above, all fleeing either the flood waters or water in ice form. Such floods, if taken literally as geological phenomena, are mentioned also in the Oera Linda book.

# 14: compare this to the end of ice age in the Väinämöinen's mythology:

[the Nordic white] inhabitants of Uudenmaa had became a folk, of which the rest of  the world was unaware. (Bock 1996, 63, my translation)

We continue with the source text:

[15] But from the moon [Kleid] there descended once more human beings with their enormous remnants (see Jacob's ladder!). They called themselves Asa and had a significantly longer life-span than the Uana. And they oppressed the Uana and [16] robbed them of their women, because they had saved none of their own. [17] The earth once more turned green, the sky blue, the water bright, and [18] Got-Hari's eye – the sun – one more shone through the clouds and Ka-Os diminished …

# 15: while this theme of gods arriving from the sky is common to many other mythologies, I cannot but wonder if this is in reality a metaphora or a kenning of some sort, of which meaning is lost to us.

# 16: Aesir men taking Vanir women is an ancient theme also seen in the Nordic sources, Oera Linda book and Väinämöinen's mythology, as I have previously shown here in this forum thread.

# 17: this is a recollection of the post-Ragnarökian times as of the Völuspá and as Väinämöinen's mythology describes the times following the end of the last ice age:

It's told that of these first was Öriket ['island kingdom'], a time of fishing culture. When land turned into green again, began the Ängriket ['meadow kingdom], time of farming culture.  When rivers began to flow, became the Åriket ['river kingdom], when for example Åland  and Åbo were inhabited. (Bock 1996, 64, my translation)

# 18: that sun is called Got-Hari's – or 'God-Lord's' – eye is similar to Väinämöinen's mythology, where sun is called Oden. Moreover, just as there is one sun in the sky, Odin of Völuspá is known to have been one-eyed and is called Harri or Herjan, that is 'lord' or 'sir'.

And now gradually they [Aesir and Vanir] began not having to kill each other in order to eat, because there were also animals, plants and moss ... And the "wise" once more dispensed their "wisdom" and organised the clans ... And the Asa established "Eden" with the Uana in Asgard and the "Asa" no longer fought the "Uana", for Freyr and Faja became one and became Ymir and Frey and Fraya ... [19] And the earth swung out and [20] the Asa-Uana children migrated out upon the Atta-lant and wrote their history and [21] even gave the word to the "wise” in support, so that they would [22] never forget, how Got created humanity ..."

# 19: compare to our planet's axial tilt as told in Väinämöinen's mythology:

In the paradise was a tropical climate. There were leaf trees, palmer, and  mammoths, elfenben. But suddenly the world ”snapped”, went out of it's place. Then the whole galaxy system axis tilted and at the same time planet earth's axis tilted: old north pole moved out of it's place and new north pole became in existence. (Bock 1996, 55, my translation)

# 20: here we have the ”Aldland” and ”Atland” of Oera Linda book, ”allt land is” of Väinämöinen's mythology and ”Atlantis” of Timaeus and Critias. The sequence matches the Väinämöinen's mythology one best, where likewise the earth tilts first, resulting in the subsequent age of 'all land ice', or ice age.

# 21: this is a guess on my part, but maybe the Aesir-Vanir giving word to the ”wise” has a etymological connection to the story of the twelve wise Frisian men, called ”Asegeirs” or  'elders'. For comparison, in Väinämöinen's mythology 12 oldest village elders form the alderman system and the chief rulers in mental aspects are the Aesir (Bock 1996, 35-36, 87-88).

# 22: this theme is strongly echoed in Väinämöinen's mythology:

Oden has always been and will always be. Oden is the sun and sun control's life.

[…]

All green and soil of earth is created by the sun's power. In this way sun controls life and is the most important element of nature in all mythologies.

[…]

Sampo [Frei] and Aino [Freia] were also primaeval beings, whose birth was a nature's miracle, or odenting. (Bock 1996, 22-24, my translation)

We continue with the source text:

And they returned together homeward to the eye of [23] Gôt, to the Su(on), which is eternal from Ur through Ru to Ur, as the history of humanity proves! Got grant it!

# 23: here we have the Gôt-Sun-Ur(alda), which nicely connects all the three sources. For the Ur to turn to Ru, it's exactly how the sound system works in Väinämöinen's mythology:

[For example:] T – [te:] tor /to:r/. /te/ is ekens tor, ”tuur” of oak tree.

When one analyses the sound system, sounds are though as backwards in words. (Bock 1996, 21-22, my translation.)

So, there you have it, folks! There are literary clues all over the Irminsaga material. In next part we deal more with this subject.

Part 2, summary.

#A: to study Oera Linda book/Väinämöinen's mythology/Irminsaga, one has to study also the Oera Linda book/Väinämöinen's mythology/Irminsaga. Regardless of whether one thinks of them as false, authentic, or something in between, the themes and details are so similar to each other that they suggest a need for further comparative studies.

#B: Wralda (Frisians) is the same as the Got (Austro-Hungarians) is the same as the Oden the sun (Finns). That a hero like Wodin would be named after a sun would be natural as in ”Sun King” Louis XIV. Alternatively, a sky objects have been named after cultural heroes as in Big Dipper being 'Oden's wagon'.

#C: similarities in themes and details suggest a common source for all three, for they occasionally agree in details and in a manner of narration that are not known from other surviving sources.


#C1: That is, if forgeries, they are copies of each other, with the following lineage: various Norse sources like Heimskringla and EddaOera Linda bookIrminsagaVäinämöinen's mythology.

#C2: That is, if authentic, they have one common source either in real world history or in a mythical legends, with following lineage: prehistory – several old Nordic legends, perhaps some of them currently lost – various Norse sources like Heimskringla and EddaVäinämöinen's mythology (since 1248) – Oera Linda book (since 1256) – Irminsaga (since 1848).  

#D: While C1 the fraud option above is in theory possible, there are some good reasons to consider it not applicable at least in the last link of the Väinämöinen's mythology. Public Finnish knowledge of Irminsaga became - to my knowledge - available first in any language in the year 2001, with the mr. Flowers' book was being sold at a one discreet Helsinki bookshop. Whereas the Väinämöinen's mythology had been partially recorded already back in 1984.

Moreover, mr. Bock seemed genuinely clueless of the Wiligut tradition when interviewed about it in 2010. He didn't own any books on the subject matter, nor did he use internet or even own a computer. Mentions of Oera Linda book and Wiligut tradition are more or less uknown from the Finnish academic scene, or from the alternative scene that some of the mr. Bock's friendhood consisted of. While mr. Bock was known for being an extrovert invidual and occasional actor by previous profession, nothing in his reading habits or professional history hints at possibility of being such a great author. If he made this story up, he would have been one of the greatest literary minds of the 20th century Europe, easily equalling such great literary names as Waltari or Tolkien in cleverness. Such a possibility seems outright unlikely, if not impossible.

As I have shown earlier in this topic, some of the similarities between sources are buried so deep in the story that even mr. Bock himself was unaware of them. These strongly suggest that he merely told what he was told in turn, not that he invented it in the 1970s, as some have theorised.

#E: While mr. Wiligut must very likely have been aware of the Oera Linda book, it's noteworthy that the story and the writing system varies a bit from the one in the Oera Linda book. For the C1 fraud option above there exists a specific and serious two-way problem. In Väinämöinen's mythology, as presented by mr. Bock in his 1996 book and later in a 2002 booklet, exists unique information that matches closely Irminsaga material from the 1930s, that was in turn recorded as late as 1997 and printed on paper as late as 2001. Please compare:

On the pictures is a wooden cane in possession of Ior Bock, which belonged earlier to his elders and family (Nygren 2002, 4th illustration page, image shows a wooden cane with skillfully carved detailed troll face at the top, my translation)

Mr. Wiligut's assistant Gabriele Winckler-Dechend relates the 1930s in a 1997 interview:

Supposedly the Secret Service was interested in Wiligut's Gotenstock [carved wooden cane]. Among other things, the Gotenstock is said to have been used for wedding ceremonies. Could you describe this cane more closely? Do you know anything of its origins or whereabouts?

In regard to the colonel's Gotenstock, it was inherited from his grandfather by way of his father. It was beautifully made and, judging from the color, propably out of fine wood. The golden pommel was carved into a head, if I remember correctly. Wiligut did not use it as a support for walking, but rather he carried it with him at all times. (Flowers 2001, 142)

Please compare:

Symbol of Oden is snake biting it's tail, which forms a ring: one speaks of Oden's ring, which was also often a theme for jewelry. There were three kinds of rings: earring, wrist ring and finger ring, which pagans kept in left ear, left hand wrist and at finger. Men used rings, women jewelry. (Bock 1996, 79, my translation.)

It is told, that in the paradise age the whole world around the land of Oden was Karelia /ka:rj ja:rl a /,  [i.e. place of karls and earls], which was inhabited by Karelians; after Atlantis [ice age] from it became the names Arjala ['place of Aryans'] and aryans, when arctical peoples went east to inhabit the modern day Russia. When the [white Vanir] descendants of the Lemminkäinen went to east and south, they eventually met in the south dark-skinned Vanir, who had began to move gradually towards the north.

After church divided into two systems [Catholic and Orthodox], it became to north by west and east. In the Karelia east and west met and began to make war; many Karelians, or Aryans, moved then to the Central European chivalric orders. They took with them the symbols of snake and rose. In this way began the stories of aryans, arjerna. In the Bock family stories it was told that these migrants were descendants of the rose families. (Bock 1996, 80-81, my translation.)

Again, Mrs. Winckler-Dechend relates the 1930s in 1997:

We met in the evening, and Herr von Kanne told us that his family stemmed from a very old foreign line – the ancient foreign rose appeared in their coat of arms – at which point the colonel [Karl Maria Wiligut] suggested that then they must also have a snake ring in the family. However, nothing was known about this. The following day the colonel and I traveled with our adjutants back to Berlin. A few days later, Frau von Kanne came to Berlin and – still very excited – showed me a matchbow containing the snake ring. She wanted to it to the colonel and told me that in the evening, after the aforementioned conversation the men all sat by the fireplace at the Kanne's home and talked about the snake ring. Darré had entreated upon Kanne again and again to see if maybe there really was such a ring in the cupboard where the ancestral heirlooms, and a chronicle of the Kanne family history, were kept. Kanne repeated each time that that was impossible, for he was familiar with every object. Upon Darrés insistence, he finally pulled out a chest of old jewelry in order to prove it. While doing so he bumbed a small, uknown button, whereupon a hidden small drawer sprang open, in which this snake ring lay! It should come as no suprise that this similarly impressed us. (Flowers 2001, 143-144)

I
h o n e s t l y
c a n ' t
m a k e
t h i s
s t u f f
u p .

Check it out yourselves: the Kanne family is either from Germany, Denmark or Norway. Note the heraldic roses.

Of note here is that Norwegians participated in the Kalmar Union along with the Danes from 1397 to 1521. There were a lot of fighting going on in the Baltics and in Finland at Mediaval times: in addition to Swedes, Russians and Germans, Danes attacked Finland in 1191, 1202, 1509; Norwegians in 1008 and 1240 respectively (Cajanti 1997, 31-36).

#E1: Clearly, the two above sources speak of the same issue. Why would they fake it? How could they fake it not being aware of each other? (Check the publications dates above.) If they were aware of each other, how on earth did they make it happen - was it by clairvoyance, or by telepathy?

#E2: What are the odds to this happening by coincidence? How many families do you know where symbols of rose and snake are passed around, along with old wooden canes? How many Norse sagas or other sources do you know that mention the specific combination of a. snake ring jewelry, b. wooden canes as family heirlooms, c. rose heraldry and d. aryans. That's quite a specific combination, eh?

I could see how one story could mention the snake ring. Or how an another story might mention the rose heraldry. But no way with like this – this must either be a fraudulent loan, or genuine reflection of old Nordic family tradition culture.

#F: Again, please check the publication dates above. I was there - no way anybody in Finnish alternative scene, in Finnish history scene or in mr. Bock's surroundings had heard anything about the Wiligut tradition at that time. They were profilic authors, yet not a single one book, website or magazine article mentioned the Wiligut material.

#G: The only conclusion I can come to is: the Boxströms and Wiliguts did not screw us – they really had some old information, which were mere remnants of once more common Nordic cultural heritage.

#H: This has some serious implications for the Oera Linda book, too. If we find similarities between the Irminsaga and Oera Linda book, what does that tell in turn of the trustworthyness of Oera Linda book as a source?

#I: Note, this doesn't still mean we need to accept these sources at their face value – anymore than let's say students of Biblical studies take Old Testament for absolute literal truth. This inquiring mindset is also how mr. Bock and mr. Wiligut thought of it (Bock 1996, 11, 101; Flowers 2001, 19).
Part 3. addendum

A quick note on the point #18 above on the post #991, about the Got-Hari, of whose 'eye' the sun was said to be in the sky. As the name means in modern english 'God-Lord', I just realised the name does survive in the modern English language as the exclamation Good Lord! This is the same as the old Finnish exlamation-curse perkele ('goddamn').

As for the 1930s story mrs. Winckler-Dechend gave out in 1997, the man called "Darré" turned out be no other than the Darré:


Richard Walther Darré (born Ricardo Walther Oscar Darré; 14 July 1895 – 5 September 1953), was one of the leading Nazi "blood and soil" (German: Blut und Boden) ideologists and served as Reichsminister of Food and Agriculture from 1933 to 1942. He was an SS-Obergruppenführer and the seventh most senior officer of the SS. When the Second World War ended, Darré was the senior most SS-Obergruppenführer, with date of rank from 9 November 1934, outranked only by Heinrich Himmler and the four SS-Oberst-Gruppenführer.

[...]

In his religious views, Dárre would belong to the Pagan faction within the Nazi movement (Wikipedia)

Now, as the modern view is largely that the Nazis were just outright nutters with occult vibe, doesn't the information I presented earlier point to a more holistic view – namely that they didn't make it up out of nothing, but based it on some real old folkloristical roots, and even personally experienced and witnessed as to it's accuracy, as the Winckler-Dechend story tells us?

That being said, I have thought more on the sources and the possible Wiligut-Boxström link.

#J: Mr. Bock is known to have had a family connection to a Finnish SS volunteer, who in turn passed away in the 1980s. In theory this could link him to the German Irminsaga – which has a SS connection by the way of colonel Wiligut and Reichsführer-SS Himmler – yet this is unlikely for the following reasons:

#J1: Finnish Waffen-SS volunteers in general are not known of being oriented towards heathenism or aryanism. Only 20% of the Finnish SS soldiers were national socialists by political orientation. Finnish SS volunteers were at Danzig, Stralsund, Heuberg,  Stettin, Wien and Gross Born before moving eventually to Ukraine and Donetsk. Wiligut on the other hand was already out of the SS by the start of the WW2 and lived in obscurity in Aufkirchen, Goslar, Austria and died in Arolsen. So Finnish SS volunteers likely never had a good chance to meet mr. Wiligut face to face.

#J2: all sources, including the very sceptical ones, consistently paint a picture that mr. Bock had little or no connection to this former military person, but instead lived his life with Rachel* and Rhea Boxström, who allegedly passed this Väinämöinen's mythology and Bock saga to him because of Rachel Boxström's death already back in the 1918 at the hands of the Red Guard.


* Correction (March 31): it was Rafael Boxström, not Rachel who passed away in 1918 and whose place mr. Bock allegedly took in the family, inheriting the hereditary title (though not an actual position in this case) of king of Finland.  Likewise, Karl Maria Wiligut was allegedly a "secret king", albeit that of the Central European Gypsies like other the Hungarian magnates before him. The 1997 interview of mrs. Winkler-Dechend speaks at length about this side of the story, and the mrs. is able to confirm to the interviewer in four different questions and answers that mr. Wiligut was genuinely of mighty and once very important family background - albeit it waned during the Wiligut's lifetime to almost oblivion, starting right from the break up of Austro-Hungarian Empire in WW1 and was finished by the Germany's WW2 defeat.


#J3: Heinrich Himmler was in general interested on all things Finnish and visited us in 1942. Earlier, in 1935 he had met a Finnish student Yrjö von Grönhagen in Germany, whom he hired as Ahnenerbe researcher to look for the Aryan roots in Karelian folk songs. (Our national epic Kalevala is made of those very the same Karelian heathen songs.) Thanks to Grönhagen, Himmler had a photo of Finnish heathen song singer Timo Lipitsä hanging on his office wall. Yet there are no direct known connections to the Boxströms or to the related SS volunteer above. Grönhagen went east to Karelia, which was then a quiet countryside, not to the Sipoo or urban Helsinki so as to possible link-up with the Boxströms.

#J4: I have not personally read mr. Grönhagen's rare book on the topic (reprinted in 2014), but would be very surprised if it would mention the Boxströms. Overall it seems to me as Finn that Grönhagen, Himmler and Wiligut were not aware of the Boxströms. Wiligut's works mention only once the Finns, as a passing mention in a 1934 copy of Hagal and the detail is of such nature that it likely comes from Kalevala or other similar folkloristic source:

also among the Finns Tuonmali [should be: Tuonela] indicates the realm of dead. (Flowers 2001, 70)

#K: in 1993 a booklet on Bock saga was printed in Berlin. In 1992 and 1993 three magazine articles were printed on the subject in German language. I remember having read the 1993 booklet and the 1993 magazine article. To my memory, neither spoke of snake ring jewerly, wooden canes, rose heraldry or aryans.

#K1: Indeed, the whole Karelian-Aryan and snake-rose theme is only a minor detail mentioned in passing in the mr. Bock 1996 book. When one reads literature or watches the various YouTube videos on the subject, they never bring-up these details, suggesting to that they are simply unware of them. Nor is this stuff much discussed in the Finnish literature on the subject, either. To my mind, the only public sources to them were the 1996 book and 2002 booklet only available in Finnish language and not of very great distribution, either.

#K2: I'm aware that one of the mr. Bock's German friends was aware of existence of the Wiligut's Irminsaga, but that was in the early 2000s when I too was aware of it thanks to the mr. Flower's book. To my mind, this German man seemed unaware of the thematic connection I presented above, for he likely would have brought it up, because he did publish material on this subject.

#K3: Thus, it seems really difficult to see how mr. Bock or mrs. Winckler-Dechend could loan material from each other. Especially so, because the Wiligut's Irminsaga does not have much internet presence, and likely had even less so in the 1990s. There existed books published on the Wiligut subject already in the early 1980s – yet the rose, snake etc. came up only in the 1997 interview, to my knowledge. The 2001 Flowers book calls the 1997 interview "exclusive" on the back cover, which I understand as not having been published earlier. To me it seems, that mr. Bock or his German friend simply had no source for this stuff in German literature before 1997, even if they had searched for such. Nor do I see a specific reason why mr. Bock or his German friend would have searched out mrs. Winckler-Dechend by themselves in time previous to that, or any proof of such activity.

###
 
Posted 30 March 2016 - 08:14 PM
View PostDemiurg, on 30 March 2016 - 03:43 PM, said:
But I wasn't saying the OLB has links to present time, but that it has links to the time in which it is written.
It is a fallacy: petitio principii (cirkelredenering): It must be written in the 19th century because it has links to this time (in which it was written).
It only works if you first conlcude or assume that it was written then.
These 'links' can not serve to prove that it was written in the 19th century.
None of the 'links' that you found make it impossible that it was actually written before the 19th century.

Quote
There's no real relevance of what OLB says about Atlantis, the relevance is why and how the writers talk about Atlantis in the context of their present time.
Again, this is only true after you have concluded or decided that it is a 19th C. product.

Quote
That's not true and you know it. You went to Leuven yourself to read a thesis of a germanist. Goffe Jensma also has a chapter about the language.
Both authors look at the language, assuming that it is fake. They don't consider the possibility that it can be authentic. And therefore they are not qualified to conclude that it is fake, because that was their starting point even before they started looking at the language. For a (real) scientist that is an obvious mistake, as you will only find what you are looking for (that is, if you reject anything that does not fit in your presupposed model).

Beckering Vinckers did the same, but less explicitly, and he is the one always referred to. That is why I only mentioned him.

Quote
Is it possible than to think that OLB-langauge is old Frisian?
Yes, again I refer to De Haan Hettema, Ottema and Maußer, to name a few.
I also don't share Jensma's 'conclusions'. German syntax is very similar to Dutch, by the way (as are most Frisian dialects).
'Modern' Frisian is designed such as to be as much different from Dutch as possible. That's how they get more government money. (And for many it's an identity thing.) Many Frisians that I know despise the standardised 'subsidy' Frysk.

Quote
Don't you think it would be fun to do something like that?

I think it's (still) impossible. Perhaps you can, some day, try to make one single page.

Quote
What strikes me is that you seem to think that if you can prove that Verwijs was not involved authenticity of the OLB would be more plausible.
Arguments against Verwijs' involvement at least make the currently dominant hoax theory less plausible.
I earlier also argumented against Knul's Halbertsma theory.
If there are no plausible suspects, that does weaken the general hoax theory.

Quote
The writer can also be someone who is (and stays) completely out of the picture.
So far, I still have not seen any strong argument why it can not possibly be a 13th century copy of older originals.

It is no use looking for a murderer,
if the deceased can simply have died a natural death.

###

Posted 31 March 2016 - 09:53 AM
View PostDemiurg, on 30 March 2016 - 03:43 PM, said:
Goffe Jensma ... declares that the OLB isn't even modern Frisian, because you should change word-order if you translate it. If you translate to modern Dutch, you don't have to change any word-order. I have tried it once with some textfragments and I think he's right.
Considering that what is now Holland, was still Frisia in the Middle Ages, modern Dutch and Frisian are both New Frisian (Dutch then being New West Frisian).

So perhaps the OLB language is more like Old Dutch (i.e. Old West Frisian) than Old (East) Frisian.

###


Posted 31 March 2016 - 04:11 PM
View PostTony S., on 21 March 2016 - 12:51 AM, said:
Strabo mentions a group who lived in India called the Germanes.
For who reads German and Gothic script:

Source: (1786) Deutsche Encyclopädie oder Allgemeines Real-Wörterbuch aller Künste und Wissenschaften: Gal-Ger. Eilfter Band, Band 11, Seite 69
 ###

Posted 31 March 2016 - 04:24 PM

###


FromFinland Posted 02 April 2016 - 02:49 AM
View PostDemiurg, on 01 April 2016 - 10:35 PM, said:
The time in which it was written (that's what I said) is not necessarily the 19th century, it could also be the 18th, 17th or a century before that. And it's not a fallacy to point out internal parts of the text to date a manuscript. That's what historians do. So after acknowledging that the paper is probably 19th century, the language is 19th century, the manuscript has been out in the open in the 19th century, it's not so strange if internal factors reveal aspects of 19th century culture too.
What Demiurg stated is exactly what I have tried to do: to try find similar narratives, details, characters and rhetorical ways of telling between the sources. It helps us to find possible older sources and also to possibly confirm some of them, if they seem to be telling the same story from different viewpoints. (If different sources that do not mirror each other, or are not known to have merely copied from each other, tell more or less the same story, then it's likely based on some actual thing.)

To my knowledge, we have no narrative source for the relevant question, that did the manuscript survive intact as such from the year 1256 to us, or has it been edited or re-written in the time between the 1256 and 1800s? The second option might leave literary clues to various centuries quite close to us, yet still keep an ancient core or ancient bits of lore here and there.

(This very the same issue helds true also for the Icelandic Hrafnagaldr Óðins, German Old High German lullaby, Irish Foras Feasa ar Éirinn, Finnish Väinämöinen's mythology, Austro-Hungarian Irminsaga and Ukrainian Book of Veles. On what basis do we decide them to be genuine, fake or something in between? For example, Väinämöinen' mythology is part of larger Bock family saga, that did in turn evolve all the way until 2010, so the narrative in it includes a plenty of modern references in addition to ones that are alleged as primordial.)

Demiurg, it's great you brought up the mr. Breuker's book. Unfortunately I myself can't read Dutch and all of his books seem to be sold out in webshops. Could you please share one or more Breuker's comparisons between the Oera Linda book and the papers mr. Verwijs left behind? The way you describe mr. Breuker's work, he seems to have done a bit similar work to mine, thought he seems to have referred into 19th century sources and not earlier.

View PostDemiurg, on 01 April 2016 - 10:35 PM, said:
So every scientist that works on the OLB has to start from the bottom with evaluating the manuscript again?
While I can't answer for Ott, in my opinion it depends on the groundwork. If it's good and detailed, one could move on the more peripheral issues that have not yet been researched. To my foreign eyes it looks as if this is not at all the case with Oera Linda book, as the research so far seems to have focused on linquistics and possible 19th century literary loans, with very little or no attention given to comparing it to older sources or archeology. I would love to know the Dutch or other academic studies that deal with the latter. (So just to be reassured that the burden of comparative old literary research doesn't lie on the shoulders of one random Finnish university student researching this stuff at 02:00 AM...)

View PostDemiurg, on 01 April 2016 - 10:35 PM, said:
That's not how it works. The authenticity is falsified before and there is consensus about that.
Amongst whom there is this consensus? Do you mean Dutch academia of Tresoar and the universities?

View PostDemiurg, on 01 April 2016 - 10:35 PM, said:
So, if someone works on the OLB, he evaluate what the literature says about the historical criticism and than jump into his own bit of research. Jensma did evaluate the literature on this point.
So, Jensma was sure that the studies before him had already compared enough the Oera Linda book to other classical and medieval sources? I can see how he might have been unaware of the Irminsaga or the Väinämöinen's mythology in the early 2000s, as the literature on them was published so late, but surely he was aware of the older sources and studies?

View PostDemiurg, on 01 April 2016 - 10:35 PM, said:
You don't have to compare it with modern laguages, you have to compare it with the old frisian we know.
How do we "know" that the old Frisian that has survived represents the whole spectrum of Frisian dialects back at the day, and is not reflective of nth century?

In archeology exists a problem that Medieval paintings show quite a wide range of different arms and armour, yet only few types have survived to us. Most of the selection have been lost by the centuries in between, so it's an open question what gear was actually used back in the day. Are the paintings to be trusted, for they show some gear that has actually survived to our day? Could it be similar situation here, with Oera Linda book (or Old High German lullaby...) taking the place of the painting in the example?

View PostDemiurg, on 01 April 2016 - 10:35 PM, said:
If you say that, you seem to imply that the OLB-research only has focussed on the 'who done it'-question. Well, that simply isn't true. There is so much written about the internal and external factors of the OLB. By Jensma, the Jong, Beckering Vinckers, Breuker...
Did Jensma, the Jong, Beckering Vinckers, Breuker and others compare the text to likes of Tacitus' Germania, Bede's Ecclesiastical History of the English People, Sturluson's Ynglinsaga, Guerber's Myths of the Norsemen, Tolkien's Finn and Hengest, Wiligut's Irminsaga and Bock's Väinämöinen's mythology? If yes, do we know what they did found out?

###

Posted 02 April 2016 - 08:11 AM
View PostDemiurg, on 01 April 2016 - 10:35 PM, said:
So after acknowledging that the paper is probably 19th century,
Why? Can you refer to any serious investigation with clear results? Its waterlines look just like the ones on Medieval Arabic (Spanish) paper.

Quote
the language is 19th century,
Because syntax is similar? But German and Dutch split long before the 19th century and also have similar syntax. Or do you have better arguments for this bold statement?


Let me remind you what celebrated 19th C. linguist Verwijs said about it:

1867 Oct. 13 - to C. Over de Linden (OdL)
"Part of it was quite easy to understand and, although seeming to be of younger age, not different from the language of the Oldfrisian laws from the 13th and 14th century. But there were also fragments, that I didn't and still don't understand and that will take much meticulous study, before I can clarify them."

1867 Oct. 16 - to OdL
"I really can't promise you the translation of a separate part, as there are difficulties in it, that may take weeks of study."

1869 Nov. 11 - to OdL
"Here and there translation is very easy and it can be done at first sight; but other parts contain difficulties, that take much time and study."

1869 Nov. 11 - to J. Winkler
"Here and there translation is easy, but there are also quite some difficulties and unknown words. I know that if I would start, I would not rest before I have solved them, and that way I would spend much too much time on it. [...] It's odd that it contains some very old words and that also the forms point at a previous linguistic era, while other expressions sound so very modern."


Quote
the manuscript has been out in the open in the 19th century, ...
The Dead Sea Scrolls are "out in the open" since the 20th century, but are dated from the last three centuries BCE.

Quote
And the examples that come to mind are 19the century, don't you think?
No.


Quote
Atlantis was a known story before the 19th century, but the heated debates and the serious quest was really something of that era.
That was mostly after OLB became well known.

Quote
You really make a caricature of it.
And I think you lack a sense of logic.
(At high school, I remember, students who were bad at understanding and applying mathematics, tended to be good at believing and remembering history, and vice versa.)
But let's not go there and stick to the facts.

Quote
So every scientist that works on the OLB has to start from the bottom with evaluating the manuscript again?
I did not suggest that. But if their mentality is, to only look for confirmation of their assumed premise that OLB is fake, and to reject clues or facts that are in conflict with this, they can not be expected to provide answers to the question why OLB can not be authentic.

Van den Bossche, 2000 (Methodology, p.6):
"Eén van de uitgangspunten van het onderzoek is, dat Thet Oera Linda Bok een vervalsing is."
(One of the premises of the research is, that the OLB is a forgery.)

Jensma, 2004 (Introduction of chapter 3 on OLB-language, p.37):
"Welke technieken, welke strategieën en welke bedoeling hebben aan het scheppen van deze taal ten grondslag gelegen?"
(On what techniques, strategies and purpose was the creation of this language based?)

Quote
The authenticity is falsified before and there is consensus about that.
The conclusion of this one scholar (Beckering) and the consensus among a few later scholars can still be questioned and falsified. They may turn out to have been wrong. It often happens in science.

I don't blame scholars who build upon the conclusion of their predecessors, but if they don't question this earlier conclusion, they are not likely to find clues that are in conflict with it.

My position is, that the arguments to reject authenticity are feeble, including those by Beckering.

Quote
... you have to compare it with the old frisian we know
That is what expert De Haan Hettema, Dr. Ottema and Prof. Dr. Mausser did.

De Haan Hettema (5 sept. 1871) about the OLB:
"It was written in the Frisian language; I don't know a distinction between Old Frisian and Land- or Farmers-Frisian. I only know another and newer spelling of that language, because the pronunciation of Frisian is virtually the same as some ages ago, which was demonstrated by the world famous linguist the Danish prof. R. Rask in his Frisian grammar [...]
Concerning the spelling in this text, this in my opinion is much more in accordance with the older and very regular, and much better and regular than of those, who nowadays write that language;"

Linguist Dr. Otto Mausser (1883-1942) in letter to Wolfram Sievers (1905-1948), about lectures by Heyting and Overwijn:
"Besonders interessant war mir natürlich zu hören, dass auch die Holländer die Echtheit der Ura-L-Chronik nicht anzweifeln. Der Unterschied zwischen mir und ihnen ist nur der, dass ich genagelte Beweise erbringen kann."
(Most interesting was it for me to hear, that also the Dutch don't doubt OLB's authenticity. The only difference between them and me is, that I can provide hard evidence.)

Dr. Ottema: see "Vergelijkende Taalproeve" in 1st edition (between introduction and translation).

Quote
What exactly do you think is impossible?
To create an illusion of authenticity this sophisticated. I don't claim it is impossible, I just don't think it is, but I will not further discuss this opinion.

Quote
you seem to imply that the OLB-research only has focussed on the 'who done it'-question. Well, that simply isn't true. There is so much written about the internal and external factors of the OLB. By Jensma, the Jong, Beckering Vinckers, Breuker... As I said before: the quest for the creators starts after establishing that the OLB must be a 19th century creation.
I can not judge Breukers work. Since it does not seem to be available and it will probably be only (part of) a chapter, can you scan and share it?

As for Jensma and De Jong, their focus was indeed on who did it and why. Yes, they also search and find confirmation for their premise that it's fake, but none of that is hard evidence against authenticity. They do not first establish that it must be a 19th C. creation.

As for Beckering Vinckers, I don't see how anyone can actually take his work seriously. It is a highly emotional rave. Have you tried to summarise his main arguments yet? Have you read the answer by Leendert Floris Over de Linden to it? (Beweerd maar niet Bewezen, 1877)

A remarkable fact:
Great-granddaughter of Jan Beckering Vinckers (1821-1891; he got his double name by adding the family name of his mother to that of his father) felt bad about what her g-grandfather had done to the Over de Linden family (translated):
Dear Mr. Menkens! It was a wonderful surprise to receive your gift. I was very happy, to find out at the end of my existence, that it is granted to me, to somehow ablate the shame inflicted by my great-grandfather on the Over de Linden family. Thank you so much for this gift!! Many, many thanks, your Cornelia Woldt, born Beckering Vinckers, Neumünster. Source
###

Posted 02 April 2016 - 01:50 PM
View PostDemiurg, on 01 April 2016 - 10:35 PM, said:
What arguments did you have seen to prove that it's from the 13th century? I have seen none.
My answer:

###

Posted 02 April 2016 - 01:55 PM
View PostEll, on 02 April 2016 - 12:01 PM, said:
So we know that at least one new copy existed: the one that Cornelis over de Linden made. Where is that copy? Where is the original document?
OdL's copy was on transparent paper (propabably kept at Tresoar).
There is no reason to doubt that the manuscript at Tresoar (from which I use scans) is the original.

###

Posted 04 April 2016 - 09:06 AM
View PostDemiurg, on 03 April 2016 - 11:04 PM, said:
... it would be in real old frisian. In real medieval writing, on real medieval paper.
There is no good evidence that it is not. You think there is, I don't. Let's agree to disagree.

Quote
His linguistic analysis is very detailed and to the point.
Again, we disagree. In my opinion, it is based on a model which is based on questionable assumptions. For strong arguments against the validity of BV's conclusion, I refer to L.F. Over de Linden "Waarheid en Leugen" (1877).

###

Posted 04 April 2016 - 09:50 AM
View PostDemiurg, on 03 April 2016 - 10:33 PM, said:
In short: for a manuscript that has to be 13th century, it has to be done in the old frisian-variant.
There was no standard, there must have been a huge variety. You keep ignoring De Haan Hettema's judgement. He had much more expertise than Beckering.

Quote
The grammatical cases and conjugations are used wrong all the time ...
Wrong from the point of view of (some) linguists who had created a model of how they assumed the standard would have been.

Quote
There's also hardly any development in the different stages of the OLB...
Similarly, this argument is based on an assumed model of (Darwinian style) evolution.

Quote
I don't know any scholar these days who believes the OLB is what it says to be.
Scholars are more interested in conforming to percieved consensus, than in truth.
Wannabe scholars are even worse in this regard.

Very few have actually investigated it themselves.

A reputation is fragile. The press has been harsh. That Prof. Dr. Anne J. Vitringa (1827-1901) in 1874 published his "Naar aanleiding van..." (in which he merely suggested that OLB might be authentic) anonymously, is telling.

###

Posted 04 April 2016 - 10:02 AM
View PostDemiurg, on 03 April 2016 - 11:12 PM, said:
A statement in the OLB itself must proof that its 13th century?
You said you had seen no arguments to prove that it's from the 13th century.
The date given in the document itself is one.
The claim that the paper would be obviously 19th century is bogus.
Modern research (Kardinaal, v.d. Grijn, Porck, 2006) does not even establish that.

Sample of OLB paper and of Latin-Arabic manuscript, dated before 1195 CE, from Toledo Spain:
More and bigger samples here.
###

Posted 04 April 2016 - 01:13 PM
View PostDemiurg, on 04 April 2016 - 12:43 PM, said:
Are these samples produced from woodpulp?
Probably, yes. Perhaps combined with pulp from recycled paper or cloth. See wiki "history of paper".

###

Posted 04 April 2016 - 04:29 PM
View PostDemiurg, on 04 April 2016 - 04:08 PM, said:
... why do you think that arabic paper was using woodpulp before the 1900s?
"Islamic world - The use of water-powered pulp mills for preparing the pulp material used in papermaking, dates back to Samarkand in the 8th century, ..."

And at Pulp I found: "Pulp is a lignocellulosic fibrous material prepared by chemically or mechanically separating cellulose fibres from wood, fiber crops or waste paper."

But I'm no paper expert either. What I do know though, is that the 2006 investigation did not get a clear result and that their decision to beforehand exclude the possibility that it's Medieval, based on the 1876 observation, is a mistake.

If it was 19th C. machine made, it should have been very easy to establish at what factory it was made and when.

Arab paper probably contained plant (or tree) material, since they learned it from the Chinese. See fragment (p.58-59) from: "Science and Technology in Medieval European Life" by Jeffrey R. Wigelsworth; Greenwood Publishing Group, 2006.


And:
The first wire mold for making paper is identified in Spain dating to 1150. Bamboo molds were common in China, but it was not readily available in Europe.
The bamboo allowed the mold to be flexible, but the European rigid wire mold, was better suited to the formation of rag fiber. Europeans also invented the Fence or Deckle, which keeps the paper within bonds (Hunter 1943, 115).

The earliest paper was called 'cloth parchment', but it often contained wood and straw in addition to cloth. All these raw materials were beaten to a fine pulp and mixed with water. Sheets of paper were then pressed out, dried and hardened.
(http://www.dartforda...ogy/paper.shtml)
my underlining, found here

###

FromFinland Posted 05 April 2016 - 12:41 AM
View PostDemiurg, on 03 April 2016 - 10:33 PM, said:
Btw: Eelco Verwijs was also very interested in mythology, he also wrote a groundbreaking book on Sinterklaas.
Thanks for the tip. I have learned that mr. Ottema did in fact compare Oera Linda book to many old sources, yet I can't but to help notice they're like all Roman or Greek sources of the classical civilisation. I'm like: dude, where's my Nordic stuff? To my best knowledge, Dutch are of Nordic stock culturally, racially and linguistically. Why weren't they back in the day (or today) paying any attention to the Northern European sources? Like: story of Hygelac attacking the Frisians. Or the Frisian studies by well known author and researcher Tolkien.

We have here in Finland somewhat similar situation with the so-called Väinämöinen's mythology. Of it has been written and commented much since the 1980s when it became public knowledge. All authors, save for two persons, have compared it to various 19th and 20th century sources and then possibly some old really ancient foreign material like Bible. When obviously the contents must be checked against those other Nordic sources that give insight into the same time and place, as the story that is to be checked for validity. Same thing with Oera Linda book or Irminsaga: in the latter case the authors look for various 19th and 20th century esoteric sources and only occasionally glimpse at the actual sources from the heathen era. Even though it mentions Brennus twice, for example (Flowers 2001, 104, 109). How about this, do you recognise anything from Oera Linda book?

Way to the mothers
Maya faeki kloig, Kat ar sunur fraeg,
Kat ar mani Sunur, Mani kat ar pertisur
Maya faeki kloig. (Flowers 2001, 106.)

I have no clue what it actually says, but notice "mothers" in the title and "Kat" in the text. I'm not able to tell whether "Maya" is female name like Maija, or corruption of Magy (like Gylve was). Anyway, please compare:

Very many of the sailors and soldiers to whom this proceeding was displeasing went away secretly, taking Kat with them. But Kat, who did not wish to appear before either the mother or the general assembly, jumped overboard. (Sandbach 1876)

View PostDemiurg, on 03 April 2016 - 10:33 PM, said:
The topics that Breuker can link from Verwijs to the OLB are just a few. The most important link he works out is to a book called 'Altnordisches leben' van  Weinhold (1856)  I can give and translate quotes if you want. This is about runen and alphabets. he also mentions books of Verwijs about the Indo-European linguistic theory of the time.
That would be great, Demiurg! You maybe aware that the Irminsaga is all about the runes and the Väinämöinen's mythology about the alphabet. So it could be of use not just for researching one source, but three sources.

View PostDemiurg, on 03 April 2016 - 10:33 PM, said:
There's also hardly any development in the different stages of the OLB, even if they should be written centurys apart.
That is a good point. Clearly some parts of it are meant to be read as literal word-for-word copies (letter of Hiddo starting with Okke my son...), but maybe some other parts were re-written already in the olden days? Like Geoffrey of Monmouth compressed many stories into one book in his 12th century History of Kings of Britain, maybe Hiddo's predecessors in the early 1200s or late 1100s could have taken the Monmouth's example and done just that.

Moreover, wouldn't there be at work the same issue as with the mediaval monks who copied old texts. That is, they made small errors which were copied over and over, resulting over time in a bit newer language or meaning. Wouldn't such a process make the language appear newer and newer with every small mistake? By mistake I mean here both copying an incorrect letter or whole incorrect word. The latter could come about especially if the copyist has to guess an old word's actual meaning.

View PostDemiurg, on 03 April 2016 - 10:33 PM, said:
Interesting analogy. But let's say we see a piece of armour at a painting that's not saved. You can see what the painter's intentions are and if he is trustworthy with the other equipment he's portrating. If his other gear is accurate with reality, than the one piece of gear that we don't know might have existed too. How trustworthy is the manuscript of the OLB?
As I have not yet finished my line by line study of the Oera Linda book and am merely halfway through it, I can't yet give my full insight on the general trustworthyness of it as a source. So far it seems to echo other old sources in spirit, in details and in rhetorical ways of telling the narrative. Apparently either the author was a good specialist of Nordic mythology (think as in J. R. R. Tolkien's calibre), or the story genuinely has roots on old mythos that was not limited just to Frisians, but also known by some Scandinavians, us the Finns and other peoples.

###

Posted 10 April 2016 - 11:21 AM
View PostDemiurg, on 10 April 2016 - 08:39 AM, said:
You can't make that assumption. The Chinese used plant material, but the medieval paper we know, also from the Arabs is made of cloths or parchment.
If the Chinese used plant material for paper making, and the Arabs learnt it from them, it would simply make sense that the Arabs would use similar materials. I said "probably". It remains a guess indeed, until a study would confirm this.

Is there a study claiming that Arab paper never contained wood- or plant pulp?
Quote:
They did establish that. They didn't only found woodfibre, they also found soda and mechanical fibers, which proofs that it must be 19th century paper. [...] They dated part of the papers of the 1850ies, and another of the 1860ies.
How do you explain that in the more recent publication (2011), no clear statement is given about the results?

I will answer in more detail later.

Relevant sources:

2006 The Oera Linda Boek - A literary forgery and its paper, by Porck, Van der Grijn and Kardinaal (some discussion here)

2011 Het Oera Linda Boek , een ‘cold case’ en ‘hot item’, by Porck, Van der Grijn and Kardinaal (English translation here)

Quote:
I saw other statements of you that they haven't done their report, but the article that Abrahelim has put on his blog is a report. Even if they promised there would be a more extensive report, which never came. You assumed that they found that the paper wouldn't be 19th cenury after all, but it makes more sense to assume (if you must assume anything) that they just didn't found a place to publish.
I was referring to the heralded (in 2011) final report:

"Het onderzoek is in de afrondingsfase en nog niet volledig voltooid. [...] Inmiddels is weer een periode van aanvullend onderzoek afgerond en wordt een afsluitende publicatie voorbereid (planning: 2013)."
(The research is in the final stage and not completely finished. [...] By now yet another phase of additional research is finished and a final publication is prepared (planning: 2013).)

Tresoar has its own newsletter and Jensma (who supervised the research) has many contacts in the extended network of (subsidised) publications in Friesland. If the report would be any good at all (i.e. have any welcome conclusions), it would be most easy to have it published. And why not simply put in on the internet? If they tried but didn't find a place to have it printed, this can only mean that the report is of inferior quality.

###

Posted 10 April 2016 - 05:00 PM
View PostDemiurg, on 10 April 2016 - 10:36 AM, said:
You point to the article from L. Over de Linden from 1877 and say he's making strong arguments against the work of Beckering Vinckers.
[...] he goes on for over 40 pages without refuting even one linguistic argument that BV has given. Not once he evaluate the detailed examples of reflexions etc, that BV went trough in his article.
He does not have to, because he argues against the overall validity of BV's assumption that OLB can't be authentic if it would contain linguistic errors.

Pages 21-23:
Zou dat nu werkelijk zoo zijn, dat geen geschrift met fouten tegen de taalregels, meer echt is? Dus alle documenten van vroegeren of lateren tijd, waarin is gezondigd tegen de taalwetten, omtrent geslacht, getal, declinatie en conjugatie warden eenvoudig als onecht afgewezen? Wat zal er dan bitter weinig in de archieven meer waarde hebben. In velen zal geen document meer overblijven, als, volgens de opgegeven stelling, onechte wordt uitgezocht en uitgeworpen. Wat zal er op die manier worden van zoovele stukken, van mannen uit den tegenwoordigen tijd, die zich in de wetenschap naam hebben weten te verwerven, maar, wat nog al bij velen, die overigens eene flinke wetenschappelijke opvoeding hebben genoten, het geval is, — aan de studie der moedertaal niet het grootste gewigt hechten en daardoor die taal soms ellendig havenen. Of mogen de latere geschriften wel en die van 1256 geen taalfouten bevatten? 't Kon zijn, omdat er toen minder scholen en minder leerboeken en minder meesters waren dan tegenwoordig; ieder was toen voor een groot deel zijn eigen leermeester, en ieder meester hield er zijn eigene spelling en taalregels op na, waardoor de variëteiten in de schrijfwijze van Fransch, Duitsch, Friesch of welke taal ook, bijna zoo groot in aantal waren als de schrijvers. Zoo zal 't zeker ook geweest zijn met de schrijvers van 't O.L.B. Ieder in zijn eigen taal en stijl, zoo goed als zij 't konden, en op een wijze om begrepen te kunnen worden niet in wartaal — hebben zij opgeteekend alles wat zij aan de vergetelheid wenschten te ontrukken. Men schreef geen stuk om te dienen als proeve van taal en stijl. Wat zij schreven is wellicht met tallooze zonden tegen geslacht, naamval, gebruik van vocalen, wijze van vervoegen, en wat voor taalzonden men meer begaan kon, maar toch zoodanig, dat zij begrepen kunnen worden, hoezeer niet in de taal, die volgens den heer B.V. alleen den naam verdient van regtschapen Friesch.

Maar is dat noodig? Hoeveel geschreven stukken uit den tegenwoordigen tijd getuigen niet voor het gezond verstand en de flinke geestesontwikkeling van de schrijvers en, die toch een alles behalve regtschapen Nederduitsch opleveren.

Zijn die stukken nu onecht, d.w.z. zijn ze niet uit den opgegeven tijd? Bestaan ze uit wartaal?

Neen, zeg ik op dit laatste, tenzij aan dat woord eene andere beteekenis wordt gehecht, dan in 't algemeen wordt gedaan. 't Hangt maar of van de definitie. Is 't geschreven zoodanig, dat met den besten wil ter wereld, de gedachte van den schrijver er niet uit op te maken is, dan mag er m.i. slechts van wartaal gesproken worden?

Doch dat zal men van het HS zeker niet kunnen getuigen. Hoe ware 't ook anders te vertalen geweest? Hoe kon de taal er van, door gezaghebbende personen, dan zoo worden geprezen? Hoe kan het beschouwd worden als de pennevrucht van een geleerden Fries?
 ###
 
Posted 11 April 2016 - 06:51 PM
View PostOtt, on 09 April 2016 - 06:36 PM, said:
1912 "Aanvulling van de Brochure Beweerd, maar niet bewezen", by Leendert F. Over de Linden
A funny and instructive fragment from this brochure, by W.M. Visser (p.24, my translation):
For the comparing and testing that we intend here, one must free oneself from earlier adopted ideas and beliefs, especially from prejudice or negative bias. That is essential!

An example may clarify this.

A captain of the cavalry once gave his sergeant a book about Greek history.

After reading it, the man returned the book, not very satisfied, remarking that it was quite strange, that those Greek gods, heroes and wise men all would have had horse names. He thought that was suspicious for people who would have lived hundreds of years ago, for how on earth could they have even known, let alone have had the names of the horses of his - of the captain's - squadron?

The man apparently thought it was a mystification. Mistakes like that are common.
Original Dutch text:
Voor ons hier bedoelde vergelijken en toetsen moet men zich losmaken van eenmaal aangenomen denkbeelden en opvattingen, vooral van vooroordeel of tegeningenomenheid. Dit is volstrekt noodig!

Een voorbeeld make onze bedoeling in deze duidelijk.

Een ritmeester bij de ruiterij, gaf eens aan zijn wachtmeester ter lezing een boek over de Grieksche geschiedenis.

Na het lezen gaf de man, niet zeer voldaan, het boek terug, met de opmerking dat toch al erg vreemd was, dat die grieksche Goden en helden en wijzen allemaal paardennamen zouden gehad hebben. Dat kwam hem verdacht voor bij menschen, die honderde jaren geleden zouden geleefd hebben, want hoe konden die in vredesnaam, de namen zelfs maar kennen, laat staan hebben gedragen van de paarden van zijn — des ritmeesters — eskadron?

Die man dacht blijkbaar aan een mystificatie. Zoo gaat 't trouwens meer.
###
Posted 14 April 2016 - 11:44 AM: PILATH see separate post

###

FromFinland Posted 15 April 2016 - 11:55 AM
View PostOtt, on 14 April 2016 - 11:44 AM, said:
It means to rush, move quickly, flee instead of slowly (!) and is derived from (moving like a) pijl (arrow). Arrow in OLB is PIL (see here).
[...]
Question to FromFinland or Apol: do you know if this word is still known in other Scandinavian languages and if it was listed in old dictionaries?
I'm happy to tell that yes, the word is also contained in the Finnish language. Pillastua means for a horse to flee in panic or to bolt, but can also mean figuratively for a human to get mad. Interestingly the term includes word astua 'to step' also within it: pill-astua. In Finnish language that means both to take a step and also in agraric context for a horse to breed.  In folk language you do find the prefix pi also from the words referring to human male and female genitalia. The prefix pi can also be found from other words, like pikainen 'quick' and pikaposti or 'express mail'.

My 1942 copy of Kanteletar gives the following etymology, as commented in by the famous researcher Julius Krohn:
Quote
Pillastua, [book] II: [poem] 345, to get furious (Lönnrot, E. 1840. Kanteletar. Helsinki: Finnish Literature Society. 10th print from 1942. Page 358. World explanations by Krohn, J.)

Licentiate of philosophy Raimo Jussila shares the following in his "Kalevala Dictionary":
Quote
piili (2) arrow. Carved a pile of arrows [piiliä], a heap of three feathered ones: shafts stretch from oak, tips from resin wood. 6:47.
pillastua (2) to bolt (Jussila R. 2009. Kalevalan sanakirja. Keuruu: Otava. Pages 284, 286.)

I note that in Finnish language the prefix pi can be related not just to hurry (pikainen) but to spoiling (pilata), to rape or to ruin (pillamus). There may be a etymological connection between the two similar sounding meanings, for in my language there are many folk sayings about how in a hurry one gets weak results. This seems to tie up with the pill-astua as seen above. The idea survives also in the English language.

My comment: many of the Finnish pi-words above sound very archaic. I wasn't even aware of the piili word before I checked it from the dictionary above and double-checked it from the online database of Ancient Poems of the Finnish People. For example, the word is used in a heathen poem about the Väinämöinen (or Odin of the Scandinavians) sung by Jyrki Kettunen in 1834.

Edit: it dawned upon me that mr. Bock of the bilingual Väinämöinen's mythology fame did write on this very word in his 1996 book. I'll share it here, as the story is a bit similar to Oera Linda book and the etymology contained therein is allegedly of primaeval Aesir origins. He also notes it as having a meaning related to  human anatomy (24-25); to a bow, quiver and infantry (32-33, 44).  An arrow (Fenno-Swedish pil) is specifically mentioned as symbol of a breeder (44). Etymology of the word is given as pi - 'circle' and l - 'law' (19, 25). I didn't find direct examples related to speed or hurrying as such, though the general context ties up to some degree with the Finnish language as per what I wrote above.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

As for the 2006 report shared by Abramelin and brough up into discussion by Demiurg, I've began to study it, but due to university work haven't finished my reading of it yet. I'll eventually report back here what I found.
~~~
That pi would mean a 'circle' in the ancient Fenno-Swedish, this may be connected to the idea of round shape of wheel, as in a chariot wheel, wagon wheel or cart wheel. Those in turn do have a thematic connection to movement, speed and horses.

Lemminkäinen [i. e. Balder] [...] had special symbols as his marks and decorations. [...] Lemminkäinen has [...] an arrow, pil, a quiver, pilbåge and a straight sword.
[...]
Yule was the feast of sun and to it belonged yule morning, yule day and yule evening, that is 'wheel morning', 'wheel day' and 'wheel evening'. Wheel referred to sun and Lemminkäinen represented the fertilising sun like his elders Ukko and Akka. In this way the three figures represented sunwheel, lifewheel or livshjulet. (Bock 1996, 32, 78)

While this may be a stretch from the point of Oera Linda book and overall a side issue, I do note a strong internal consistency in this story and its etymology. Either it's A. very carefully made up faketymology of the 1980s or B. reflects some genuine primaeval etymology and is thus of possible use for Oera Linda studies. Let's not forget that according to authors of Wikipedia, with my bolding:

"some [traits of Finland Swedish] are in fact preserved features of old Swedish, as with Scots in comparison to English, Afrikaans in comparison to Dutch, or Galician and Brazilian and African dialects in comparison to modern mainland European Portuguese." (Source)

###

Posted 15 April 2016 - 01:08 PM about the passing away of Hans Olav (Apol).
See separate post here.

###

Posted 15 April 2016 - 05:58 PM
Again, here is an improvement (i.m.o.) of the existing translations.

[130/25]
THÉR WÉRON GRÁTE MARA THÉR FON THA BODEME LIK.EN BLÉS VT.SETTA.

Sandbach p.179
There were great lakes which rose from the earth like bubbles,

Ottema translated as "meren" (lakes) and so did all other translators that I know of. (Wirth: "Seen"; Lien "innsjøer".)

But "maar" also means crater, which makes more sense in the context:
A maar is a broad, low-relief volcanic crater caused by a phreatomagmatic eruption (an explosion which occurs when groundwater comes into contact with hot lava or magma). A maar characteristically fills with water to form a relatively shallow crater lake which may also be called a maar. The name comes from the local Moselle Franconian dialect of Daun in the Rhineland-Palatinate, Germany, ...Wiki
The same word is used in German, Dutch, Danish, Swedish, Norse and it does not seem to be clear how old the word is.

###

Tony S. Posted 16 April 2016 - 01:14 AM
That is very sad news about Apol indeed. It only seems like a few weeks ago that he and I were discussing the layout of the burghs. This thread, that we're all privileged to be part of, is very unusual on the Internet, in that we all know each other's names and can relate to each other as real people. We don't always agree, and this is a good thing, because it stimulates an advancement of knowledge. I think this is truly the only place online that OLB researchers, of whom there are so few, can talk, argue, and share our research. Apol was one of these, and he will be sadly missed.

Jes ferhemande athe, thusande send al kumen aend jet mara send vp wei.

###

Posted 16 April 2016 - 01:52 PM
Earlier we discussed BROK.MANNA which was not translated nor interpreted by Ottema and Sandbach

BROK.MANNA does not have to refer to:

1. marshy lands where they might have lived or have come from (as the word BROK used elsewhere in OLB suggests),
2. De Grave's "Brakmannen" or Brahmanen (as Jensma suggests),
3. the Frisian verb brükmen (to use),
4. the inhabitants of Brokmerland (coastal East Friesland; both suggested by Van der Meij),

but it can refer to the English verb "brook", which can mean cohabit with or tolerate (see below).

This would make more sense in the context, since they were the people from Punjab and the Mediterranean who were allowed to resettle in Fryasland (not only in marshy lands), ca. 300 BCE.

Relevant fragments

[079/05]
ALSA IS ÁTHÉNJA WRDON É.LIK EN BROKLAND ANDA HÉTE LANDA
[O-S p.109]
Zoo is Athene geworden, gelijk een moeras in de heete landen
Such is Athens become, like a morass in a tropical country
(Jensma: "broekland", in footnote explained as marsh, swampy land)

[117/12]
THRVCHDAM ET THÉRBUTA AL SLYP ÀND BROKLÁND WÉRE
[O-S p.161]
omdat het daar buiten alles slib en broekland was
as outside there was nothing but mud and marsh
(Jensma: "slib- en broekland")

[131/28]
THA LÉKA ÀND BRÉKA THÉR THA BROK.MANNA MITHBROCHT HÀVE
[O-S p.179]
de leken en gebreken, die de Brokmannen medegebracht hebben
the faults and misdeeds that the Brokmannen have brought with them
(Jensma: "Broekmannen", in footnote referring to discussion in "Gemaskerde God" p.83-84, where he refers to Van der Meij (1978) p.78-79 and 185)

[143/23]
WAS.T ÔRE LÁND THÀT BÛTA THA HRING.DIK LÉID. AL POL ÀND BROK
[O-S p.195]
was het andere land, dat buiten den ringdijk ligt, alles poel en broek
there was a portion of land lying outside the rampart all mud and marsh
(Jensma: "poel en broek")
broek 2 zn. ‘laag gelegen moerassig land’ - Onl. bruoc, brōk in de plaatsnamen Brokhem (...) en Bruocsella ‘Brussel’ [...]; mnl. bruec ‘moeras’ [...], broec [...], brouck.
De herkomst van dit alleen in West-Germaans gebied overgeleverde woord is onduidelijk.
Mnd. brok ‘moerasland’ (nnd. brok); ohd. bruoh ‘moerasland’ (nhd. Bruch); ofri. brōk ‘moeras’ (nfri. broek); oe. brōc ‘stortvloed, rivier, beek’ (ne. brook ‘beek’).source
Also see here
brook (v.) "to endure," Old English brucan "use, enjoy, possess; eat; cohabit with," [...] (cognates: Old Saxon brukan, Old Frisian bruka, Old High German bruhhan, German brauchen "to use," Gothic brukjan), [...] (cognates: Latin fructus). Sense of "use" applied to food led to "be able to digest," and by 16c. to "tolerate."source
View PostEll, on 16 April 2016 - 05:22 PM, said:
Cannot it simply mean 'broekmannen' (trousers people)?
That would make sense if they were horse riders.
But BREC in Hettema's Old Frisian dictionary means both broek (trousers) and breuk (break) or something that is broken, the verb BRECA to break, divide, forfeit.
OLB has BRÉK for break. The relation of brék/ brec (trousers) with the verb to divide makes sense.
Also see here
Alewyn Raubenheimer in his 2011 edition of "Survivors of the Great Tsunami" translated BROK.MANNA as "refugees", with added footnote:
"Brokmanne" lit. "Broken (away) People."
###

Van Gorp Posted 18 April 2016 - 10:09 AM
Really interesting.  I would also think about "bruikland", as in "bruikleen".
For me there is a connection between all these different usages in meaning.

I still think the root is coming from "breken" (to divide or to share, breaking the bread).

In Dutch the different pronounciations are still there when saying "Een been dat breekt is gebroken en daarmee heb je een breuk".
Breuk is also the mathematical act of dividing. So I don't find it strange that land giving to be used for is called bruikland.
Bruiken as root for ge-bruiken comes imo from the same root "breken".  Becasue if you take use of something you take a part of it.

Brokmannen could than be regarded as being tolerated, but also as the "bruikmannen" van het "bruikland".
A marshy brook (broekland) is indeed just one of these applications (half water half land, half salt half sweet -> brak water).
It is not this not that, and on top very well possible that many "broeklanden" are not really by definition marshy lands but just land given to cultivate (bruik-land).

###

Posted 20 April 2016 - 05:54 PM
View PostTony S., on 16 February 2016 - 06:58 PM, said:
Hi Ott, the source, or rather one of many, can be found here: https://en.wikipedia...lsburg#SS_plans
The largest circle is 1270 metres in diameter (about 4/5 of a mile).
The apex of the triangle points north, and marks the exact location of the north tower.
A more detailed map was sent to me by a reader of my blog:

No comments:

Post a Comment