Forum #37 English (12 - 17 oct. 2013)

Posted 12 October 2013 - 04:08 PM

Two different fragments about (virtually) the same law.

1) "RIUCHTA ALLER FRYAS" - rights of all Fryas #4
[original text 025/31]
SEND THÉR WÉDVON ÀND WÉSON KÉMON
SA MOT MAN HJA ÁK VNDERHALDA 
AND THA SVNA MÜGON THI NÁMA HJARAR TATA 
VPPIRA SKILDUM WRITA HJARA SLACHTA TO ERANE.
[Ottema & Sandbach p.39]
Zijn er weduwen en weezen gekomen,
dan moet men haar ook onderhouden,
en de zonen mogen de namen hunner vaderen
op hunne schilden schrijven tot eere van hun geslacht.
If there are widows and orphans, 
they shall likewise be maintained at the public expense; 
and the sons may inscribe the names of their fathers 
on their shields for the honour of their families.

2) "ÉWA FARA STJURAR" - laws for navigators #8
[original text 028/19]
SIN THÉR WÉDVEN AND WÉSON FON KVMEN
SA MOT THJU MÉNTE HJA VNDERHALDA. 
SIN HJA AN ÉNRE KASE FELTH 
SA MÜGON THA SVNA THI NÔMA HJARAR TÁTA 
VPRIRA SKÍLDUN FORA.
[Ottema & Sandbach p.43]
Zijn daar weduwen en weezen van gekomen,
dan moet de gemeene gemeente die onderhouden;
zijn zij in een
zeestrijd gesneuveld,
dan mogen hunne zonen de namen hunner vaderen
op hunne schilden voeren.
Their widows and orphans 
must be maintained at the public expense; 
and if they were killed in a sea-fight, 
their sons may bear the names of their fathers 
on their shields.

Compare:

1) SEND_THÉR_WÉDVON_ÀND_WÉSON_____KÉMON
2) SIN__THÉR_WÉDVEN_AND_WÉSON_FON_KVMEN

1) SA_MOT_MAN________HJA_ÁK_VNDERHALDA 
2) SA_MOT_THJU_MÉNTE_HJA____VNDERHALDA.

1) -
2) SIN HJA AN ÉNRE KASE FELTH

1) AND_THA_SVNA_MÜGON_THI_NÁMA_HJARAR_TATA 
2) SA__MÜGON_THA_SVNA_THI_NÔMA_HJARAR_TÁTA 

1) VPPIRA_SKILDUM_WRITA HJARA SLACHTA TO ERANE.
2) VPRIRA_SKÍLDUN_FORA.

===

Posted 12 October 2013 - 05:39 PM

The Puzzler, on 12 October 2013 - 03:31 PM, said:

gestur, I'd be particularly interested in what you think of this next part ... but more about the etymology of the actual name itself in regards to the OLB info. [...]
Again no N in this OLB word but the translation is: The sea-people say Linwerd, but that is nonsense

The N is a transferring error. See original Sandbach text here.

The fragments:

[00a/16] Hidde, 1256 CE
SKRÉVVEN TO LJÜ.WERT
[O-S p.3]
Geschreven te Liuwert
Written at Liuwert

[00b/23] Liko, 803 CE
SKRÉVEN TO LJUD.WERD
[O-S p.3]
Geschreven te Liudwert
Written at Liudwert

[113/25] Fréthorik, ca. 300 BCE
TO LJUD.WARDJA BIN IK TO ASGA KÉREN. 
LJUD.WARDJA IS EN NY THORP
[O-S p.157]
Te Ljudwardia ben ik tot Asga gekozen.
Ljudwardia is een nieuw dorp
In Ljudwardia I was chosen as Asga. 
Ljudwardia is a new village

[143/21] Koneréd, ca. 250 BCE
LJUD.WÉRD HÉTEN. THÁ STJÜRAR SEGATH LJV.WRD
[O-S p.195]
Liudwerd geheeten. De zeelieden zeggen Liuwerd
called Liudwerd. The sea-people say Liuwerd

[206/11] Black Adel, ca. 50 BCE
BI ÁSTEN LJVD.WERDE
[O-S p.247]
beoosten Liudwerd
to the east of Liudwerd

Spelling variety, chronological:

LJUD.WARDJA - ca. 300 BCE
LJUD.WÉRD, LJV.WRD - ca. 250 BCE
LJVD.WERDE - ca. 50 BCE
LJUD.WERD - 803 CE
LJÜ.WERT - 1256 CE

LJUD, LJU = people (dutch: lui, lieden / german: leute)

Plausible meanings of WARDJA, WÉRD, WERDE etc.:

Hettema (1832) dictionary
Wardia, waardje = betalen (to pay; related are dutch: waarde & german: wert = worth, value)
Werda, waeerd = waard

etymologiebank.nl/waard2
waard = low land or land enclosed by rivers
olddutch 'wertha' = land surrounded by water
oldhighgerman 'warid', 'werid' = island
oldenglish 'waroth' = coast, shore

many toponyms ending with varieties of -werd here:
http://gtb.inl.nl/waard

"Wardja" sounds like a verb to me, but it doesn't show up anywhere else in the OLB.

My first association is with the dutch verb "bewaren" = to keep, save, preserve,protect
Thus, a place where the people can be safe.
But I'm not sure. I guess there is no definite answer to this one.

Quote

Therefore Leeuwarden is a Dutch name NOT in etymological alliance with the original Frisian word Liudwert...

I agree to that.

And I can imagine that this might have something to do with the lion ("leeuw") being the symbol of the counts of Holland and the house of Orange and it also became a symbol of Friesland:

counts of "Holland"

"Nassau" family (current Dutch royals)

Friesland

===

Posted 12 October 2013 - 05:55 PM

The Puzzler, on 12 October 2013 - 04:42 PM, said:

weson is an odd word to me for orphan, although I can see it is via the Frisian dictionary - I wonder what root word, in any language, that is associated with - does anyone know?

I don't know.
Etymologysite says this:
old-dutch: weso, weese, wese
old-german: weiso
dutch: wees
german: waise

... and this is interesting:

old-english - as second element in wuduwasa = ‘faun’, litterally ‘forrest-orphan’

===

Posted 13 October 2013 - 11:08 AM

just some notes

The Puzzler, on 13 October 2013 - 08:27 AM, said:

... faun/fawn as wasa ... Finnish word (vasa) ...

Faun seems to be related to Pan.

vasa (finnish) = calf (eng.)
seems to be related to:
vache (french) = cow (eng.)
vaars (dutch) = heifer, young cow (eng.)

===

Posted 13 October 2013 - 02:30 PM

A mistranslation by Sandbach (1876),
and something missed (or not mentioned) by other translators.

wini (oldsaxon, oldhighgerman) =
wine (oldfrisian, oldenglish) =
vinr (oldnorse) = friend
fine (oldirish) = kinship, tribe, family
venus (latin) = love

ven (danish) =
venn (norwegian =
vän (swedish) = friend

[093/20] Bruno
WÉRET FRJUNSKIP JEFTHA WINNE MÔNATH
[Ottema/ Sandbach p. 129]
was het Vriendschaps- of Winnemaand
at the festival of the harvest month [ ! ! ! ]
it was friendship- or 'winne'- (= friends or making friends) month

[116/05] Fréthorik
INNER WINNA JEFHA MINNA MÔNATH
[Ottema/ Sandbach p. 159]
In de Winne of Minnemaand (bloeimaand)
In the Winne, or Minnemaand (Bloeimaand, May)

WINNA = friends or to make friends
MINNA = to love or make love (dutch: minnen)

I find it remarkable how often in OLB "winna" (to win) is about "winning" people (or children) or making friends.
Here's a list of all fragments I found (the ones about people made bold):

present
[00b/09] RIKA PREBENDNE TO WINNANDE
[004/26] (FRYA.S.BÀRN) NÀMMER TO WINNADE (to win Fryas-children)
[026/19] ÁTHA ÀND FRJUNDA WINNA (to win allies and friends)
[051/11] (SKÉN.LAND) SVNDER STRID WRWINNA
[063/24] (THA STJÜRAR) THRVCH FRÉSE WINNA (to win navigators)
[067/21] TIN TO WINNANDE
[069/09] (THAT SKIP) WITTER.WINA
[075/32] THAT (MODER) NAVT TO WINNA WÉRE (to win the Folkmother)
[089/26] LÁND WINNA JEFTHA BIHALDA
[093/20] FRJUNSKIP JEFTHA WINNE MÔNATH !!! (win-friends month)
[109/08] GOLD TO WINNANDE
[111/30] ÁTHA TO WINNANDE
[116/05] WINNA JEFHA MINNA MÔNATH !!! (win-love month)
[118/01] RÉD BIWINNA
[125/12] THENE STÉDA WINNER
[152/09] VSA LANDA WITHER WINNA
[154/21] FRIUNDSKIP TO WINNANDE (to win friendship)
[204/21] LAND OFWINNA

past
[001/31] NÉN ÍNE GÁ OFWNNEN
[009/19] THAT BLÁW WN.ET THÉRE RÉINBÔGE OF
[056/07] EN SVN WVNEN (won a son)
[060/17] RÉD WÀRTH WNNEN
[071/03] (SLÁVONA) ANNA STRID WNNEN (won slaves)
[078/13] (SLÁVONA) WNNON (won slaves)
[089/09] RÉD INWNNEN
[089/19] LÁND OFWNNEN
[090/13] FIF SVNA WNNEN (won sons)
[101/30] IST SÁ FÀR WNNEN
[125/18] DÉMÉTRIUS WN THÉRE KÉSE
[146/04] TWÉN SVNA (AND TWA TOGHTERA) WNNEN (won sons and daughters)
[154/22] HI WON (SIN ÉROSTE SVNV) (won a son)
[155/04] FÉLO ATHA WNNEN (won allies)
[157/28] ALLE ATHUM THÉR HI BIWNNEN HÉDE (won allies)
[207/15] ÉNE ÉLE FLÁTE WNNEN

~

some or all related?

wish, winnings - english
wens (wish, desire) - dutch
winst (profit, gain, winnings) - dutch
vinst ( ,, ) - swedish
gewinn ( ,, ) - german
wunsch (desire) - german
wünsch (wish) - german

(! not in the oldfrisian dictionaries)
(? relation WINSTER = left hand side?)

[118/20]
NW WINSTIK
nu wenste ik
now I wished

[119/15]
NVV WINSTATH WI
nu wensten wij
now we wished

[142/21]
THESSE WINST SKIL HJARA VRLIAS WROCHTA
deze winst zal haar verlies wrochten (uitwerken)
this winnings shall result in losses

[210/02]
TO NV WAS ALLES NÉI WINSK GVNGEN
tot nu was alles naar wens gegaan
till now all had went as wished

~

Note:

Latin 
venari = to hunt, chase
venus = love, comeliness

Sanskrit 
vánate = to love 

Tocharian
wañi/wina = pleasure

Hittite
wenzi = to copulate

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 07:34 PM

The only language that I know uses the ê is French and the first word that comes to my mind is "prêt-à-porter" (ready-to-wear).
That ê sounds like the "ea" in ready and wear (I guess).

But the Fryan E that it represents in Ottema's transcription, is like the Dutch-Frisian long E: ee or é.
(We say "wéduwen" and "wézen". É sounding like "nay". German has the same double ee sound, as in Seele.)
That is why I use É.
Likewise, I have chosen to use À and Á, since they are more like the Fryan A's and more people will understand how to pronounce that, than â.

To understand the language of the OLB, it's helpful to speak it out loud.

===

Posted 14 October 2013 - 08:45 AM

The Puzzler, on 14 October 2013 - 04:29 AM, said:

These words all have it in the Frisian dictionary too, when I was looking up wesa:

That is a new online dictionary by the German scolar Köbler.
Older Oldfrisian dictionaries (Wiarda 1786, Hettema 1832, Richthofen 1840) don't use the ê.

I wanted to make the OLB more accessible to a larger audience, that's why I have chosen letters that are more easy to read. For example I simply use TH instead of the Ð that Knul uses. He also uses U with ° that I have no idea how to pronounce.

I still don't know what to think of the ô.

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 01:28 PM

Abramelin, on 15 October 2013 - 11:17 PM, said:

about the -W-

Language is not mathematics.

Sometimes the 'double-U' was seen as one letter, sometimes as two.

Sometimes it is pronounced as in "wit", sometimes as in "ooze".

===

Posted 17 October 2013 - 04:01 PM

Knul, on 15 October 2013 - 12:16 AM, said:

Wouldn't be useful to follow the transcription by Koebler?
The OLB words could be integrated into his Old Frisian dictionary.
This would facilitate references very much.

In my opinion, to make it most easily accessible for a larger audience, it would be best to use letters that are easy to read.

People who would use a dictionary as that by Köbler, will understand that wés, wês, wees and waise are the same.

Besides, OLB has a wide spelling variety, as have the modern NW-European languages.

BOK = book = boek = buch = bog