PAPEKAPPE is not just "monk"...

A discovery made today by Van Gorp from the UM forum.

PAPEKAPPE (letter Liko 'Oera Linda', 803 CE) can also mean "papenvriendje"

see http://gtb.inl.nl/iW...lemmodern=kepp

"Papenvriendje" (disparaging term for a monk, something like "papist's pal or buddy"?) totally makes sense.

I always thought it referred to something they wear on their heads.

Or...:
A catamite of the pope (schandknaap van de paus).

~ ~ ~

(added Sept. 29: )

Still, two interpretations are possible.

1. PAPEKAPPE = hat, cap or cape of papist, bishop or pope.
In our language, it is common to refer to someone that one does not respect, by reducing him to an external characteristic, for example "dat kapsel" (that hairdo), or "dat gekke hoedje" (that silly hat).

2. PAPEKAPPE = -KEPPE = friend, sweetheart or even catamite of the pope.
In this case it could be a strong invective to any representative of the (Roman Catholic) Church, including monks.
The word would perfectly voice the feelings Liko must have had for what he will have seen as dangerous traitors; collaborators with the enemy, destroyers of his culture.

By simply translating PAPEKAPPE as "monk", something important gets lost, IMO; the fact that LIKO used a nickname, that probably expressed some very negative feelings. 

======

To provide some context to the time when Liko 'Oera Linda' wrote his preliminary letter (unnumbered second page of OLB) in 803 CE, here are some names of the rulers:

pope of Rome
(795 - 816) Leo III, crowned Charlemagne in 800 as Roman emperor.

Carolingian emperor
(800 - 814) Charlemagne, subdued the Frisians after a 3 year "bloody war" (wiki), between 783 and 785. He was also King of the Franks (768-814) and of the Lombards (774-814).

bishop of Utrecht
(ca. 790 - 806) Hamacarus, only his name is known.

Liko wrote that he had "been at their court" (IK HAV BY THAM ET HOVE WÉST).
Where would that have been?
Rome, Noyon, Utrecht? 

And these were the relevant rulers in 1256 CE, when Hidde 'Oera Linda' wrote his OLB-copy and letter to his son Okke:

pope of Rome
(1254 - 1261) Alexander IV; time of conspiracies and instability.

Roman (German) emperor
No official emperor between 1254 and 1312. Willem II of Holland was crowned as king.

bishop of Utrecht
(1249 - 1267) Hendrik I van Vianden, he supported Willem II of Holland, but the latter exploited the conflicts between Hendrik and the nobility of Utrecht at his own advantage.

count of Holland
(1234 - 1256) Willem II of Holland, was supposed to be crowned as Roman emperor, but died miserably (fell through ice) at Hoogwoud, when he tried to subdue the Westfrisians.
His son and successor Floris V was only 2 years old in 1256, so the nobility will practically have ruled until he was 12 years old (1266). Floris made his first strike against the Westfrisians in 1272 (which he lost).

======

Posted 30 September 2012 - 06:57 AM

The Puzzler, on 30 September 2012 - 03:21 AM, said:

The word for kappa you are not seeing is COVER/CLOAK=CAPE that is your kappe.

Kap/ cap (related to Latin caput = head ~ supposedly the origin of the word cape) was how I understood it before (as did the other translators, I suppose).

Otharus, on 26 September 2012 - 10:46 PM, said:

I always thought it referred to something they wear on their heads.

But in the meaning of good friend or lover it makes a much more sense to me, as it would (imo) more adequately express the feelings Liko must have had for them. Mind you... I was raised with exactly those sentiments towards Catholics. They are deeply rooted in Westfrisian culture.

I would not say though that your interpretation cannot be right.
======

Posted 30 September 2012 - 12:45 PM

The Puzzler, on 30 September 2012 - 10:08 AM, said:

Don't forget Frisian is closer to English unless you want to think Old Dutch is in the OLB.

The language of the OLB is close to what is called Oldfrisian, but it has enough elements that are closer to other languages. Some words and structures are actually closer to Dutch than to Frisian. (And that will have been one of the reasons why many Frisians forcefully rejected it.) Also note there are still some unknown words in OLB.

If we assume that the OLB was written in the 19th century, than the author(s) probably knew KAPPE from Richthofen's Oldfrisian dictionary.

But if it is authentic, the other interpretation is also valid. It could even have been meant to be ambiguous!

Let me add that it is not how I think about Catholics and I never claimed that it was the only right interpretation.

But it is a new possible interpretation which would fit perfectly in the context.

(I also know that my grandparents would have shatterlaughed about it.)

~ ~ ~

Last week I attended a very interesting lecture about the origin of present day Dutch language (both from Netherlands and Belgium).

Unification of language only started in the late 16th century, mostly influenced by a new Protestant Bible translation (Statenbijbel, first published in 1637) and the rise of printing press. Kiliaan (1599) made the first dictionary, made with that goal, to unify the countless and strongly varying dialects. To create a standard.

We are used to the idea of a national language, but there was no standard Old-Dutch nor Old-Frisian.

Even in present day Friesland I have noticed that there are significant differences between various dialects and the same goes for Flanders. People from different regions hardly understand each other when they speak fast.

Also, important to know, many of them dialects do not have a written tradition, they merely exist orally!

~

Anyway my point is that in translating there are often several possibilities and in this case it is a matter of taste, which one is chosen. Not a matter of right or wrong.

======

Posted 30 September 2012 - 01:00 PM

The Puzzler, on 30 September 2012 - 10:08 AM, said:

Frisian is closer to English

English is closer to Frisian than to Dutch, but Dutch is closer to Frisian than English.

something like this:

English - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Frisian - - - - Dutch
 ======

Posted 30 September 2012 - 01:38 PM

The Puzzler, on 30 September 2012 - 01:18 PM, said:

No Dutch words should be in the OLB, if it's authentic, only words that went into Dutch from Frisian.

You don't get it.

If OLB language is authentic, then some words will have survived in Dutch only, others in Frisian or Flemish, or Swedish, German, English, etcetera. Some words will have survived in several languages, others in none at all.

======

Posted 30 September 2012 - 01:47 PM

The Puzzler, on 30 September 2012 - 01:18 PM, said:

Like stof for instance - no way will that be a Dutch variant meaning dust - it will be what became English stuff, which would have been an original Frisian word.

I don't agree. Why are you so dogmatic? Language is not mathematics.

substance <--- STOF ---> dust
. . . . . . . . |
. . . . . . . . |
. . . . . . . . \/
. . . . . . . fabric

"Stof" in Dutch can have all 3 meanings!
It may have been like that for many ages.
We just don't know.

There are many examples of words that evolved into various different meanings.

Example:
"Verstaan" in NL-Dutch means "to hear" (can you hear me? no speak louder please).
In German "verstehen" means "to understand".
In Belgian-Dutch it can mean both.

Boudicca ~ BOLDEKIN

you have come to know

how much superior poverty without a master is

to being a slave with wealth

Queen Boudicca as translated from 'Epitome' 62.3.1 by Cassius Dio, as read in 'Boudicca', by Marguerite Johnson (2012), p.84.

p.35
In Roman times, the territory of the Iceni included Norfolk and part of Suffolk; to their west were the Corieltauvi, to the south, the Trinovantes and Catuvellauni (...). During migrations in the sixth century BC from Belgium and Holland across the North Sea, northwest Europeans established communities along the Norfolk rivers and marshes with peaceful integration of the indigenous population.

Boudica (alternative spelling: Boudicca), also known as Boadicea and known in Welsh as Buddug (d. AD 60 or 61) was queen of the British Iceni tribe who led an uprising against the occupying forces of the Roman Empire. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boudica
~ ~ ~

Iceni, from Belgium and 'Holland', 6th century BCE, that sounds like the Fryas or proto-Frisians. Queen Boudicca could easily have been a character from the Oera Linda.

"Ur-Europa" about OLB

"Ur-Europa" about the OLB (untranslated):
Source: http://www.ur-europa.de

Kurzbericht über die Jahrestagung [...] 2011

"Astronomische Beweise für die Echtheit der Oera-Linda-Handschriften
Der erste Referent am Sonnabend knüpfte an einen seiner früheren Vorträge an. Ein astronomischer Hinweis in einem Keilschrifttext aus Mesopotamien unterstützt die Behauptung in der Ura-Linda - Handschrift, daß das „Aldland“ = Atlantis tatsächlich durch eine kosmische Katastrophe um 2192 v.d. Ztr. untergegangen ist. Es lassen sich sogar das genaue Datum und der dafür verantwortliche Riesenkomet und dessen Bahn um die Sonne ermitteln. Einen zusätzlichen Beweis fand der Vortragende in der Entschlüsselung des Mayakalenders, die der Forscher Joachim Rittstieg vorgelegt hat."

Bericht über die Jahrestagung [...] 2007

"Die letzten beiden Vorträge am Montag Morgen beschäftigten sich mit den Oera-Linda-Handschriften aus den Niederlanden, die schon oft Thema bei Veranstaltungen unserer Gesellschaft gewesen sind. Der erste Referent berichtete von archäologischen Ausgrabungen am ehemaligen Ufer der Stadt Marseille, die in eine Zeit noch vor der Gründung der griechischen Kolonie dort zurückführen. Von diesen modernen Grabungen und ihren Ergebnissen hätte ein angenommener „Fälscher“ aus den Niederlanden nichts wissen können.
Der niederländische Schriftsteller Frans Los (1898 – 1974) hat sich viele Jahre mit der Übersetzung und der Datierung der alten Handschrift befaßt und verteidigt die Echtheit großer Teile. Er gibt uns Hilfen bei der Einordnung ihrer Datierung ins bisherige Geschichtsbild. Folgt man den Thesen der Chronologie-Kritik, so gewinnen die in der OLH angeführten Daten und ihre Berichte über große Naturkatastrophen eine neue Aktualität."

Kurzbericht über die Vortragstagung [...] 2004

"Als ausländischen Redner begrüßte der Tagungsleiter einen Gast aus Flandern, der mit seinem Buch über kontroverse Geschichtsschreibung aufgefallen war. Mit interessanten Hinweisen auf verwandte Ortsnamen und Querverbindungen zwischen dem alten Flandern und dem späteren Friesland entwickelte der Referent eine neue Sicht vorgeschichtlicher Überlieferungen, die sich weitgehend mit den Angaben aus der "Ura-Linda-Chronik" decken. Der berechtigten Frage nach einem 'Zufall' muß unbedingt nachgegangen werden. (Darum wurde auch vorgeschlagen, das nächste Arbeitsseminar dem Thema "Ura-Linda-Chronik" zu widmen.)"

~~~

From: "Herman Wirth - sein Leben und Werk"

Die „Ura-Linda-Chronik“

Aus dem 19. Jahrhundert ?
Keine Veröffentlichung Herman Wirths erntete so viel Protest wie seine Teilübersetzung und Kommentierung dieser Entdeckung aus dem 19.Jahrhundert, die schon damals sehr bald als Fälschung bezeichnet worden war. Herman Wirth schrieb: „Diese Chronik hatten wir Utrechter Studenten von unserem Professor J.W.Muller in einem Kolleg 1904 als eine amüsante Fälschung kurz erwähnen hören und autoritäts-pflichtmäßig mit belächelt. Die Runenschrift sollte aus einem Rad entstanden und mit der Sonne herumgeschrieben worden sein. Und dieses Rad wäre das älteste Sinnbild eines monotheistischen Gottesbegriffes gewesen usw. Nun hatte ich 1923 / 24 schon auf Grund früh- und vorgeschichtlicher Denkmäler, die in diesem Zusammenhang nicht erkannt bzw. unbeachtet geblieben waren, die Überzeugung gewonnen, daß die germanische Runenschrift ursprünglich eine kalendarische Kultsymbolik gewesen sein müßte, eine Jahressymbolreihe eines achtfach geteilten Kalender-‚Rades‘, einer Kalenderscheibe. So horchte ich hell auf, als mir auch damit Mullers Kolleggeschichte wieder in Erinnerung zurückgerufen wurde. Denn die Chronik erzählte mir da, was ich mein ureigenstes Arbeitsergebnis wähnte.“ (23)

Auf dem Einbandumschlag der von Herman Wirth 1933 herausgegebenen Übersetzung einer Auswahl des Textes mit einer ausführlichen Kommentierung steht: „Die Ura-Linda-Chronik, das älteste Zeugnis germanischer Geschichte, wurde vor 60 Jahren (Anm: 1872, d.Verf.) in Holland aufgefunden. Die zunächst bezweifelte Echtheit wird nun von Herman Wirth überzeugend nachgewiesen. Das Werk berichtet von Kriegszügen und Entdeckungsfahrten, von Not- und Glückszeiten unserer Vorfahren zurück bis 2193 v.Chr., von heiligen Gesetzen unserer Ahnen, staatlichen Einrichtungen, Sitten und Gebräuchen. Die Ura-Linda-Chronik vermittelt damit ein eindrucksvolles Bild stolzer Kulturhöhe unserer Vorfahren....“ Tatsächlich sprechen viele Indizien gegen die Echtheit dieser Chronik. So muß sie zumindest abgeschrieben oder aus einzelnen älteren Überlieferungen zusammengeschrieben worden sein. Auch der Inhalt muß dabei verschiedenen Wandlungen bzw. Anpassungen unterworfen worden sein. Aber aufgrund seiner schon vorher veröffentlichten Forschungsergebnisse schrieb HW. jetzt in der ‚Einführung‘ den Satz: „Hiermit trete ich für die Quellenechtheit einer sogenannten Fälschung ein und beantrage vor der gegenwärtigen Öffentlichkeit die Erneuerung des Verfahrens in Sachen der ‚Ura-Linda‘-Handschrift.“ (24)

Quellenechtheit Bezug nehmend auf die jeweiligen Textstellen erläutert er seine vielen Beweise anhand der bis dahin unbeachteten und in ihrer Bedeutung von ihm jetzt erforschten Symbole und davon abgeleiteten Mythen: „Das ‚Buch der Adele-Folger‘ bringt als Eingang drei 6-speichige Räder mit der Umschrift: ‚Wralda‘ ‚t-Anfang‘ (der Anfang), ‚t-bijin‘ (der Beginn)... mit der Erläuterung, daß sie ‚die Zeichen des Juls‘ seien, (Wirth verweist an anderer Stelle auf die Bedeutung von Jul = Rad, altnordisch hjól, englisch ‚wheel‘, d.Verf.) ‚das ist das älteste Sinnbild Wraldas, auch von dem Anfang oder dem Beginn, woraus die Zeit kam: dieser ist der Kroder, der ewig mit dem Jul muß umlaufen“ (25) „Von größter Wichtigkeit ist der überlieferte Name Gottes, Wralda, dessen ‚ältestes Sinnbild‘ das ‚Jul‘ wäre. Die hier ungekürzte Form, welche sonst altfriesisch ‚wrald‘ und ‚warld‘... althochdeutsch ‚weralt‘... lautet, neuniederländisch ‚wereld‘... hat in diesen germanischen Sprachen die Bedeutung von ‚Zeitalter‘ (lat. saeculum), ‚Welt‘, ‚Schöpfung‘, ‚Erde‘ (als Wohnsitz der Menschen)...“ (26) „Und allein (schon) diese Tatsache, daß die Ura-Linda-Handschrift den Namen Wralda uns als den Gottesnamen überliefert und als sein ältestes Sinnbild das 6-speichige Rad, das Welten- und Jahresbild, aus dem die Schrift mit der Sonne herum entstanden ist, - diese Tatsache allein genügt, um die Quellenechtheit der Ura-Linda-Handschrift zu beweisen.“ (27) Gerade die Kombination mit vielen weiteren Symbolen und daraus gebildeten Mythen sind für Wirth eindeutige Beweise für einen echten ‚Kern‘ dieser überlieferten Handschrift. Darüber hinaus ist bekannt, daß es in vielen Bauernhöfen – auch z.B. Flanderns - solche alten Handschriften der jeweiligen frühesten Geschichte des Hofes gab. Sie wurden z.T. nach dem ersten Weltkrieg als sogenannte ‚Teufelsbücher‘ von den Kirchen eingezogen.

Geschichtlicher Hintergrund
Schließlich verweist Wirth noch auf die Unmöglichkeit eines Vorgriffs der Handschrift auf erst später entdeckte Spuren nordischer Seefahrer und Siedler in Indien. Dazu gehört der Silberkessel von Gundestrup, Jütland: „(Dieser)...stellt also ebenfalls die Verbindung mit dem fernen Südosten, mit Hellas und Indien, dar. Und in diesem Zusammenhang gewinnen die Sagen von der Rückkehr Frisos (aus Indien, d. Verf.), welche außer in der Ura-Linda-Chronik auch in jener Chronik von Worp van Tabor wie Occo Scarlensis u.a. erscheinen, doch einen anderen geschichtlichen Hintergrund. Diese indischen und ionischen ‚Nachfahren‘ einstiger nordischer Volkspflanzungen haben diese Motive mitgebracht, wie noch bis heute in der indischen Kultsymbolik das Motiv des Schwanengeleitbootes mit dem ‚Jul‘ Wraldas, dem [6-spoke wheel] und [8-spoke wheel] (cakra) volkläufig geblieben ist. Und nur so erklärt es sich, daß der Gundestrup-Kessel in dieser Gestalt im Nordseegebiet entstehen konnte. Für das Problem der überseeischen Volkspflanzungen nordischer Seefahrer in Vorderindien hat die Ausgrabung von Mohenjo-Daro, am Unterlauf des Indus, im Sindh, nunmehr wichtigste Anhaltspunkte gegeben.“ (28) (Anm.:diese Ausgrabungen waren 1872 noch nicht begonnen, geschweige denn bekannt! d.Verf.)

Wirth weiter: (die Symbolik) „...führt über das friesische Landrecht vom Anfange des 13.Jahrhunderts und die Annales Brunswilarenses mit der ‚nicht exixtierenden‘ odil-Rune (Ende 10.Jahrhundert) zurück in die Zeit der Odil-‚Mütter‘ am Niederrhein (1.Jahrhundert), von denen uns die Ura-Linda-Chronik die frühgeschichtliche Kunde übermittelt, die auch im Volksmunde noch in Verbindung mit den ‚Frauenbergen‘ usw. bis zum 19.Jahrhundert bewahrt blieb. Von alledem weiß weder die Volkskunde, noch die Germanistik, noch die Vorgeschichtswissenschaft irgend etwas.“ (29) Wenn HW schon in der Ura-Linda-Chronik entdeckt hatte, daß hier Wralda mit ‚het god‘ (das Gott) – also weder männlich noch weiblich – bezeichnet wurde, so schrieb er später mit Vorliebe von der (kultischen) Mutter – ‚Allmutter‘ – als Schöpferin des Lichts, des neuen Jahres usw. und fand in der großen Höhle der Externsteine auch das Ur-Sinnbild in dem ‚Herzhaupt‘ mit dem Mutterzeichen.

Frauenberge
Die Lichttürme in der Chronik waren Frauentürme; entsprechend verwies er auf die späteren ‚Frauenberge‘, die auch einst mit Lichttürmen bebaut waren. (30) Zu allen Bemühungen der Wissenschaftler damaliger Zeit, sich zu rechtfertigen und die Handschrift weiter als Fälschung zu beweisen, veröffentlichte A. Hübner als politische Aktion gegen Wirth eine Broschüre (Berlin 1934), in der es schließlich heißt: „Die Ura Linda- Chronik ist nicht nur demokratisch, führerfeindlich, pazifistisch in ihrer Grundeinstellung, sie ist im ganzen ein Machwerk ohne Saft und Kraft...“ Hübner wirft Wirth vor, er habe ‚Mangel an Verantwortungsgefühl‘ und ‚an weltanschaulichem Instinkt‘. (31) Wirth verlor daraufhin die venia legendi „...wegen liberalistisch-individualistischer Wissenschaftsauffassung, die zu überwinden Aufgabe der jungen nationalsozialistischen Wissenschaft ist."

Wirth politisch „nicht korrekt“
Zu manchen Irrtümern, die HW. in seiner ‚Pionierarbeit‘ unterlaufen mußten, wie er später auch zugab, kam hinzu, daß er politisch „nicht korrekt“ war. Er schrieb dazu bereits im März 1937: „Das ‚Dritte Reich‘ ist nicht ‚der Gang zu den Müttern‘. Darum wird es nicht von Dauer sein.
Marburg / Lahn, März 1937, als wir Berlin verließen und nach unserer ‚Eresburg‘ zurückkehrten (sein Wohnhaus,d.Verf.), um wieder Gottes Freie zu werden.“ (32)

23) HW. „Um den Ursinn des Menschseins“,(Ursinn) Volkstum-Verlag Wien (1980) S. 19 / 20
24) HW. „Die Ura-Linda-Chronik“, Koehler & Amelang, Leipzig (1933) S. 131
25) Wie vor S. 143
26) Wie vor S. 145
27) Wie vor S. 147
28) Wie vor S. 279
29) HW. in „Ursinn“ S. 47
30) HW. „Die Frage der Frauenberge“ (1972) und „Allmutter“, (1974) , beide Eccestan-Verlag, Marburg
31) HW. in „Ursinn“ S. 48
32) HW. handschr. in holländ. Sprache, von Tochter Ilge dem Verf. in Kopie übergeben. Übersetzung d.Verf.

Quotes about OLB

MORE QUOTES WILL BE ADDED LATER

2004 ~ G. Jensma, "De Gemaskerde God"

"Het Oera Linda-boek is één van de meest intrigerende mystificaties uit de westerse literatuurgeschiedenis, want is het dat wel?"

Translation:
"The Oera Linda-book is one of the most intriguing mystifications in the western history of literature, because it is not sure if it is one."

~~~~~~

2002 G. Jensma, "Het Oera Linda-boek. Wat er is en wat er mist"

"Mij dunkt, het is in ieder geval een literair monument van dubbelzinnigheid, dat het verdient om gerespecteerd en gekoesterd te worden."

Translation:
"Me thinks, it anyway is a literary monument of ambiguity, that deserves to be respected and cherished."

~~~~~~

1934 M. ter Braak, "Arthur Hübner contra Herman Wirth"

"Dat men het Oera Linda Boek in een goede vertaling en met een paedagogisch commentaar in het programma van het M.O. opneme, ter voorlichting van de jeugd!"

Translation:
"The OLB should be added to the program of secondary education, in a good translation and with pedagogic comments, to educate the youth!"

~~~~~~

1934 A. Hübner, "Herman Wirth und die Ura-Linda-chronik, p. 35"

"Die Ura Linda- Chronik ist nicht nur demokratisch, führerfeindlich, pazifistisch in ihrer Grundeinstellung, sie ist im ganzen ein Machwerk ohne Saft und Kraft..."

Translated:
"Not only is the OLB democratic, führer- [Hitler-] inimical, and pacifistic in its foundations, as a whole it is a worthless fabrication ["without juice and power"]."

~~~~~~

1927 M. de Jong, "Het geheim van het Oera-Linda-Boek"

"Er zijn er, die door de brede kruinen van het Lindenwoud de eeuwenoude Friese vrijheidszang horen ruisen; er zijn er, die zich onder het dichte loverdak wanen aan de bron ener zuivere godsopenbaring; er zijn er ook, die in het Oera-Linda-Boek het bedrieglijk kunstwerk van machten der duisternis zien, vervaardigd met het blijkbare doel de grondslagen van Kerk en Maatschappij te ondermijnen."

Translation:
"There are those, who hear the ancient Frisian song of freedom rustle through the wide tops of the Lindenforest; there are those, who have the illusion of [...] having found the source of a pure divine revelation; and there are those, who see the OLB as the deceptive masterpiece of dark forces, made with the apparent goal of undermining the foundations of Church and Society."

~~~~~~

1875 Multatuli (E. Dekker), in letter to P. Tiele

"Ik ken niemand, die den literarischen vorm aan 't boek geven kon. 't Is opmerkelijk, dat hierop door de aanvallers der echtheid zoo weinig gelet wordt."

Translation:
"I know no-one, who could have given the book its literary shape. It's remarkable, that the attackers of its authenticity take so little notice of this."

FRYDOM and FRYHED in OLB

[002/03] Adelas Read
FRYA HETH SÉIT
WI NE SKOLDON NÉN VNFRYA LJVD BY VS TOLÉTA.
THA HWAT HAVON HJA DÉN.
HJA HAVON VSA FJAND NÉI FOLGED
HWAND AN STÉD FON HJARA FENSENUM TO DÉIANDE
JEFTHA FRY TO LÉTANE.
HAVON HJA FRYAS RÉD MINACHT
AND SE TO HJARA SLAFONUM MAKED.
THRVCHDAM HJA SOK DÉDON
MACHT FRYA NAVT LONGER WAKA OVIR HJAM.
HJA HAVON YNES OTHER.IS FRYDOM BINIMEN
AND THAT IS ÉRSÉKE THAT HJA HJARA AJN VRLÉREN HAWE.

[011/15]Fryas Tex
THÉRA ALLÉNA MÉI IK AS FRY KANNA
THÉR NÉN SLAF IS FON ÉN OTHER
NI FON SINE TOCHTA.

[012/19]
6.
SAHWERSA THÉR AMMAN AMONG JO FVNDEN WARTH
THÉR SIN AJN FRYDOM VRSELLATH.
THAM N.IS NAVT FON JVW FOLK.
HI IS EN HORNING MITH BASTERD BLOD.
IK RÉDE JO THAT J HIM AND SIN MAM TO THAT LAND UT.DRIVA

SÉGZ THAT TO JVWA BARN.
THES MORNES. THES MIDDÉIS AND THES ÉWENDES
TILTHJU HJA THÉROF DRAME THES NACHTIS.

7.
ALLERA MANNALIK THÉR EN OTHER
FON SINE FRYDOM BIRAW
AL WÉRE THENE ORE HIM SKELDECH
MOT IK ANDA BARN.TAM ÉNER SLAFINE FARA LÉTA.
THACH IK RÉDE JO
VMBE SIN LIK AND THAT SINERA MAM
VPP.ÉNE KALE STÉD TO VRBARNANDE.
AFTERNÉI HJARA ASKE FIFTICH FIT ANDA GRVND TO DALVANE
TILHJU THÉR NÉNEN GARS.HALM VP WAXA NI MÉI.
HWAND ALDULKERA GARS SKOLDE JVW DJAROSTA KVIK DÉJA.

[032/..] Minno
WARTH WÉTER VRSTOREN
SA WARTH.ET VN.ÉWA. VNRJUCHT.
MEN.ET NIGTH ÉVG
VMBE WITHER ÉWA TO WERTHANDE.
THAT LÉITH AN SIN FONSELV.HÉD.

ALSA THA NIGUNG TO RJUCHT AND FRYDOM
IN FRYA.S BERN LEITH.

[033/21]
THA NY.HEL.LÉNJA.
THAM FON HJRA AJN NOME MIN.ERVA HÉTE.
GOD SÉTEN WAS
AND THA KRÉKALANDER HJA TOMET EVEN HARDE MINADE AS VS AJN FOLK.
THA KÉMON THÉR SVME FORSTA AND PRESTERA VPPERA BURCH
AND FRÉJON MIN.ERVA HWÉR OF HJRA ERVA LÉJON.
HEL.LÉNJA ANDERE

MINA ERVA DRÉG IK OM IN MINA BOSM.
HWAT IK URVEN HAV IS LJAFDE VR WISDOM. RJUCHT AND FRYDOM.
HAV IK THAM VRLÉREN
ALSA BEN.IK É.LIK ANTHA MINNISTE JWAR SLAVONENA.
NW JÉV IK RÉD VM NAWET.
MEN THAN SKOLD.IK VRKAPJA THAM.

[039/..]
THACH THA WI EN STUT SÉTEN HÉDE
AND HJA SPÉRDON
THAT WI NÉN SLAVONA NÉDE.
THA WÉRON HJA THÉR WR VRSTALATH.
MEN THA.K RA NW TALTH HÉDE
THAT WI ÉWA HÉDON
É.LIK TO BIRJUCHTANDE VR ALLA
THA WILDET FOLK AK FON SOKKA HA.
TACH SKÉRS HÉDON HJA THAM
JEFTA THAT ÉLLE LAND KÉM ANDA TIS.
THA FORSTA AND PRESTERA KÉMON BARJA
THAT WI HJARA TJVTH OVER HÉRICH MAKAD HÉDE
AND THAT FOLK KÉM TO VS VMBE HUL AND SKUL.
THACH THA THA FORSTA SAGON
THAT HJA HJARA RIK VRLJASA SKOLDA
THA JÉVON HJA THAT FOLK FRYDOM
AND KÉMON TO MY VMBEN É.SEGZA.BOK.
THACH THAT FOLK NAS NÉN FRYDOM WENTH
AND THA HÉRA BILÉVON WELDA
NÉI THAT IR GOD THOCHTE.

[042/03] Setma & Domar
SAHWERSA AMMAN ENG GOD HETH
AND EN OTHER LIKTH THAT THERMÉTE
THAT I HIM THÉRAN VRFATE
SA MOTI THAT THRJA VRIELDA.
STÉLTH I JETA RÉIS
THAN MOT HI NÉI THA TIN.LANUM.
WIL THENE BISTÉLNE HIM FRY JÉVA
SA MÉI R THAT DVA.
THA BÉRTH ET WITHER
SA NE MÉI NIMMAN HIM FRYDOM JÉVA.

[071/..] Minerva and Jon
AS HJU THÉR AN TOSTEMAD HÉDE
FRÉJATH THA LJUDA
JEF THA FRYA.S SÉDA TO ATHENJA AND THA ORA KRÉKALANDA BLOJA SKOLDE.

THJU MODER ANDERE.

JEF THA FÉRE KRÉKALANDA TO THA ERVA FRYA.S HÉRA.
ALSA SKILUN HJA THÉR BLOJA.
NE HÉRATH HJA NAVT THÉR TO.
ALSA SKIL THÉR LANG OVER KAMPAD WRDA MOTA.
HWAND THENE KRODER SKIL JETA FIF.THUSAND.JÉR
MITH SIN JOL OMME.HLAPA
BIFARA THAT FINDA.S.FOLK RIP TOFARA FRYDOM SY.

[077/..] Ulysus
ASER FALLEN WAS
GVNGON SINA NÉIMANNINGA ALRING AN VSA ÉWA TORENA
AND BI GRADUM SA FÉLO MISLIKANDA KÉRA TO MAKJANDE
THAT ER TO LONGE LESTA
FON ÉLIK SA AND FON FRYDOM HA
NAVT OWERS AS THA SKIN AND THA NOME VRBILÉF.

[079/..] Denemarka
GRAT 100 JÉR LÉDEN BIJONDON THA DÉNE MARKAR TO WANDELJA MITH HJAM.
HJA JÉVON HJAM ISERE WÉPNE AND RÉDSKIP
THÉR FORI WANDELDON HJA GOLDEN SIRHÉDON BIJUNKA KAPER AND ISER JRTHA.
THJU MODER SAND BODON AND RÉD ER HJA SKOLDE THJU WANDEL FARA LÉTA.
THÉR WÉRE FRÉSE SÉIDE HJU FORI HJARA SÉDUM AND BITHAM HJA HJARA SÉDE VRLÉREN
THAN SKOLDE HJA AK HJARA FRYDON VRLJASA.
MEN THA DÉNEMARKAR NÉDE NARNE ARA NEI.
HJA NILDE NAVT BIGRIPPA THAT HJARA SÉDE VRBRUDE KOSTE
THÉRVMBE NE MELDON HJA HJA NAVT.

[081/..]
THA SKÉNLANDER THAM NÉY WÉRON NÉI THAT LAND HJARAR ÉTHLA
KÉMON NÉI THA DÉNE MARKUM.
VPPEN HELLE NACHT KÉMON HJA ALLA.
NW SÉIDON HJA THAT HJA RJUCHT HÉDE VPPET LAND HJARAR ÉTHLON
AND THAHWIL THAT MAN THÉRVR KAMPADE
KÉMON THA FINNA IN THA LÉTOGA THORPA
AND RUNADON MITH THA BERN EWÉI.
THÉRTRVCH AND THAT HJA NÉN GODA WÉPNE NAVT NÉDON
DÉD HJAM THA KASA VRLJASA
AND THÉRMÉI HJARI FRYDOM
HWAND THENE MAGI WRDE BAS
~
THAT KÉM THAT HJA FRYA.S TEX NAVT NE LÉSDE
AND HJRA RÉDJÉVINGA WARLASD HÉDE.

[083/..] Franas Death
MIN AGUN WRDE THJUSTRED.
THA THAT ORE LJUCHT DÉGTH VP IN MINARA SÉLE.
~
JES IK SJA.T.
~
HARK JRTHA AND WÉS BLIDE MITH MY.
~
VNDERA TIDUM THAT ALDLAND SVNKEN IS.
STAND THJU FORMA SPÉKE FON THET JOL AN TOP.
THÉRNÉI IS HJU DEL GVNGON
AND VSA FRYDOM MITH THAM.
AS ER TWA SPÉKE JEFTHA 2000 JÉR DEL TRULED HET.
SA SKILUN THA SVNA VPSTONDA
THER THA FORSTA AND PRESTERA
THRVCH HORDOM BIT FOLK TÉLED HAVE.
AND TOJENST HJARA TATA TJUGHA.
THI ALLE SKILUM THRVCH MORT SWIKA.
~
MEN HWAT HJA KÉTH HAVE SKIL FORTH BILIWA
AND FRUCHDBER WERTHA
IN.A BOSMA THÉRA KLOKE MANNISKA.
ALSA LIK GODE SÉDUM
THÉR DEL LÉID WRDE IN THINRA SKAT.
~
JETA THUSEND JÉR SKIL THJU SPÉKE THEN DEL NIGA
AND AL MARA SIGA ANDA THJUSTERNESSE AND IN BLOD .
OVIR THI UTSTIRTH THRVCH THA LAGA
THÉR FORSTA AND PRESTERA.
THÉRNÉI SKIL THET MORNERAD WITHER ANFANGA TO GLORA.
THIT SJANDE SKILUN THA FALSKA FORSTA AND PRESTER
ALSAMEN WITH FRYDOM KAMPA AND WOXELJA.
MEN FRYDOM. LJAFDE AND ÉNDRACHT
SKILET FOLK IN HJARA WACH NÉMA
AND MITH THET JOL RISA UTA WLA POL.
THAT LJUCHT THAT EROST ALLÉNA GLORADE
SKIL THAN FON LÉJAR LAJA TO.N LOGHA WERTHA.
THAT BLOD THÉRA ARGUM SKIL OVIR THIN LIF STRAMA
MEN THV NE MUGTH ET NAVT TO THI NÉMA.
~
TO THA LESTA SKIL THAT FENINIGE KWIK THÉR VP ASA
AND THÉROF STERVA.
~
ALLE WLA SKÉDNESE THAM FORSUNNEN SEND
VMBE THA FORSTA AND PRESTERA TO BOGA
SKILUN AN LOGHA OFRED WERTHA.
FORTH SKILUN AL THINRA BERN MITH FRÉTHO LÉVA.

[111/..] Apollanjas Fart
THJU BURCH.FAM FON FOR.ANA SÉIDE MY.
THAT THA BURCH.HÉRA DÉISTIK TO RA GUNGON.
VMBRA TO LÉRANDE.
HWAT AFTE FRYDOM SI.
AND HO THA MANNISKA AN THÉRE MINNE AGON TO LÉVANE
VMBE SÉJEN TO WINNANDE FON WR.ALDA.S.GAST.

[125/..] Antigonus
AMONG THA FÉLO FORSTA HÉDE NÉARCHUS EN FRJUND
MITH NOME ANTIGONUS.
THISSE STRÉDON BÉDE VMB EN DOL.
SA HJA SÉIDON AS FOLLISTAR TOFARA.T KÉNINGLIKE SLACHTE
AND FORTH VMBE ALLE KRÉKA.LANDA
HJARA ALDE FRYDOM WITHER TO JÉVANE.
ANTIGONUS HÉDE AMONG FÉLO OTHERUM ÉNNEN SVN.
THI HÉTE DEMÉTRIUS.
AFTER TONOMAD THENE STÉDA WINNER.

[134/25]
IN ÉRA TIDA NISTON THA SLAVONA FOLKAR NAWET FON FRYHÉD.
LIK OXA WRDON HJA VNDER ET JUK BROCHT.
IN JRTHA.S WAND WRDON HJA JAGATH
VMBE MÉT.AL TO DELVANE
AND UT.A HERDE BERGUM MOSTON HJA HUSA HAWA
TO FORST AND PRESTERUM.S HÉM.
BI AL HWAT HJA DÉDON.
THÉR NAS NAWET TOFARA HJARA SELVA
MEN ELLA MOSTE THJANJA
VMBE THA FORSTA AND PRESTERA JETA RIKER AND WELDIGER TO MAKJANE
HJARA SELVA TO SADENE.
VNDER THESSE ARBÉD WRDON HJA GRÉV AND STRAM ÉR HJA JÉRICH WÉRON
AND STURVON SVNDER NOCHTA
AFSKÉN JRTHA THAM OVERFLODLIK FVL JÉFATH
TO BATA AL HJARA BERN.
MEN VSA BRITNA KÉMON
AND VSA BANNALINGA THRVCH THA TWISK.LANDA VR IN HJARA MARKA. FARA.
AND VSA STJURAR KÉMON IN HJARA HAVNA.
FON HJAM HÉRADON HJA KALTA
VR É.LIKA FRYDOM AND RJUCHT AND OVERA É.WA
HWÉR BUTA NIMMAN OMME NE MÉI.
ALTHAM WRDE VPSUGON THRVCH THA DROVA MANNISKA
LIK DAWA THRVCH THA DORRA FJELDA.

[141/27] Frana's wil
ANTHA NOME WR.ALDA.S.
FON FRYA AND THÉRE FRYHÉD
GRÉTE IK JO. AND BIDDE JO.

[142/..] Gosa
ARGE TID IS FORBI FAREN.
MEN THÉR KVMT EN OTHERE.
JRTHA HETH HJA NAVT NE BARAD
AND WR.ALDA HETH HJA NAVT NE SKÉPEN.
HJU KVMT UT ET ASTA.
UTA BOSMA THÉRA PRESTERA WÉI.
SA FÉLO LÉD SKIL HJU BRODA.
THAT JRTHA.T BLOD ALGADVR NAVT DRINKA NE KAN.
FON HJRA VRSLÉJANA BERNUM.
THJUSTRENESSE SKIL HJU IN.OVERNE GAST THÉRA MANNISKA SPRÉDA
LIK TONGAR.IS WOLKA OVIRET SVNNE LJUCHT.
ALOM AND ALLERWÉIKES
SKIL LEST AND DROCHTEN BIDRIF WITH FRYHÉD KAMPA AND RJUCHT.
RJUCHT AND FRYHÉD SKILUN SWIKA
AND WI MITH THAM.
MEN THESSE WINST SKIL HJARA VRLIAS WROCHTA.
FON THRJU WORDA SKILUN VSA AFTERKVMANDE
AN HJARA LJUDA AND SLAVONA THA BITHJUTNESSE LÉRA.
HJA SEND.
MÉNA LJAVDA . FRYHÉD AND RJUCHT.
~
THAT FORMA SKILUN HJA GLORA.
AFTERNÉI WITH THJUSTRENESSE KAMPA
ALONT ET HEL AND KLAR IN JAHWLIKES HIRT AND HOLLE WARTH.
THAN SKIL TVANG FON JRTHA FAGAD WERTHA.
LIK TONGAR.S WOLKA THRVCH STORNE.WIND.
AND ALLE DROCHTEN BIDRIV
NE SKIL THÉR AJEN NAWET NAVT NE FORMUGA.

[151/..] Friso
THA BURGFAMNA AND THA ALDA FAMNA
THÉR JETA FON HJAR ÉRE GRATHÉD WISTE.
NIGADON NAVT VR NÉI FRISO.S BIDRIV.
THÉRVMBE NE KÉTHON HJA NÉN GOD FON HIM.
MEN FRISO SNODER AS HJA.
LÉT RA SNAKA.
MEN THA JONGA FAMNA SPOND.ER MITH GOLDNE FINGRUM AN SINA SÉK.
HJA SÉIDON ALOMME WI NAVATH LONGER NÉN MODER MAR.
MEN THAT KVMTH DANA THAT WI JÉROCH SEND.
JVD PAST VS.NE KANING
TILTHJU WI VSA LANDA WITHER WINNA
THÉR THA MODERA VRLÉREN HAVE
THRVCH HJARA VNDIGERHÉD.
~
FORTH KÉTHON HJA.

ALREK FRYA.S BERN IS FRIDOM JÉVEN.
SIN STEM HÉRA TO LÉTANE
BIFARA THÉR BISLOTEN WARTH
BI T KJASA ÉNRE FORSTE.
MEN AST ALSA WID KVMA MACHTE
THAT J JO WITHER.NE KANING KJASA.
SA WIL IK AK MIN MÉNE SEGE.
NÉI AL HWAT IK SKOJA MÉI.
SA IS FRISO THÉRTO THRVCH WR.ALDA KÉREN.
HWAND HI HETH.IM WONDERLIK HIR HINNE WÉJAD.
FRISO WÉT THA HRENKA THÉRA GOLUM
HWAMHIS TALE HI SPRÉKTH.
HI KAN THUS AJEN HJARA LESTUM WAKA.
THAN IS THÉR JETA AWET TO SKOJANDE.
HOK GRÉVA SKOLDE MAN TO KANING KJASA
SVNDER THAT THA ORA THÉR NIDICH VR WÉRON.
~
ALDULKERA TALUM WARTH THRVCH THA JONGA FAMNA KETHEN.
MEN THA ALDA FAMNA
AFSKÉN FÉ AN TAL.
TAPADON HJARA RÉDNE UTEN OTHERA BARG.
HJA KÉTHON ALLERWÉIKES
AND TO ALRA MANNALIK.

FRISO

KÉTHON HJA.

DVATH SA THA SPINNA DVAN.
THES NACHTIS SPONTH.I NETTA NÉI ALLE SIDUM
AND THES DÉIS VRSKALKTH.I THÉR
SINA VN.AFTER.TOCHTLIKA FRJUNDA IN.

[160/..] Gosa
NV STEM.LÉTH NER GELAT HJARA BOSA TOCHTA NAVT LONGER MAR VRRÉDON.
NV IS DUGED FON UT HJARA MIDDEN WÉKEN.
WISDOM IS FOLGTH
AND FRIDOM IS MITH GVNGEN.
ÉNDRACHT IS SOK RAKTH
AND TWISPALT HETH SIN STÉD IN NOMMEN.
LJAFDE IS FLJUCHT
AND HORDON SIT MITH NID AN TÉFEL.
AND THÉR ÉR RIUCHTFÉRDICHHÉD WELDE.
WELTH NV THAT SWÉRD.
~
ALLE SEND SLAVONA WRDEN
THA LJUD FON HJARA HÉRA
FON NID. BOSA LUSTA AND FON BIGIRLIKHÉD.

'Shamanist priests' in OLB?

A discussion with Alewyn Raubenheimer ('Transvaler') on 'Historum'-forum.

Posted June 26th #153

Quote originally Posted by Transvaler (Alewyn):

I may just mention here that this Old Persian religion, Zoroastrianism, is a monotheistic religion and so is the religion of the Oera Linda Book. This is in contrast to the polytheistic Hinduism, Buddhism and other Shamanistic religions in the region. Buddhism is not polytheistic.

Hinduism and Buddhism are not Shamanistic religions.

In fact, the definition of 'shamanism' is not clear, so what is yours?

Quote (wiki):

The exact definition and use of the term "shamanism" has been highly debated by scholars, with no clear consensus on the issue.

Quote, originally Posted by Transvaler:

"The Magyarar claims that they can exorcise and recall evil spirits. The people are always in dreadful fear and there is never any joy to be seen on their faces” (Here we have a typical description of Shamanism)

Typical for 'shamanism'? Then was Jesus a 'shaman' too?

Wiki: Miracles_of_Jesus. Quote:

John 21:25 states that "Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, ...even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written." These miracles may be categorized into four groups: cures, exorcisms, resurrection of the dead and control over nature.

Wiki: Exorcism. Quote:

In Catholic Christianity, exorcisms are performed in the name of Jesus Christ.

Here is what the OLB says about the 'religion' of the MAGÍ and MÁGJARA:

OLB p.[050/31]-[052/22]: from the Waraburch at Aldegamude, about the arrival of the Magí (ca. 2100 BC)

They were not wild people, like most of Finda's race;
but, like the Egyptians, they have priests like them
and now that they have churches they also have statues.

OLB p.[055/16]-[056/17]: from the Waraburch at Aldegamude, about the deification of Wodin (ca. 2000 BC)

he dared to disavow and ridicule the spirits of Frya and Wr-alda,
while he bent his free head before the false and deceitful [idol-like] images.
His reign lasted seven years, and then he disappeared.
The Magy said that he was taken up by their gods and still reigned over us

In my perception, shamans are more like tribal medicinemen. They don't have churches, don't worship images or statues, don't let people bow for them or pay them tributes.

I agree with this definition from the Wiki-Shamanism site:

Shamanism is a term used in a variety of anthropological, historical and popular contexts to refer to certain magico-religious practices that involve a practitioner reaching altered states of consciousness in order to encounter and interact with the spirit world. A shaman is a person regarded as having access to, and influence in, the world of benevolent and malevolent spirits, who typically enters a trance state during a ritual, and practices divination and healing.

What the OLB-Fryans hated most were priesthoods (PRESTERA) that made people into slaves by creating fear (like the Old-Testament does), deified mortal hero's (like Christianity did with Jesus), priests who collected much wealth by having superstituous people make offerings to the fancy statues they had made.

See this post: Criticism of Religions in OLB on my blog for details.

======

Post #157

Quote originally Posted by Transvaler:

"The traditional religion of the indigenous Altaians is called 'Shamanism'. This is a set of beliefs and practices whereby practioners communicate with the supernatural. A shamanist priest is known as a shaman who acts as an intermediary between the human and spirit worlds. They are supposedly capable of entering supernatural realms to provide answers for humans and to treat illnesses. Shamanism dates back to the Neolithic period and perhaps even as far back as the Paleolithic. The religion was practiced throughout the Iron Age by the various Teutonic tribes and the Fino-Baltic peoples.”

I suppose that the source for the first sentence of your quote is Wiki (Altai_Republic):
"The traditional religion of the native Altaians is shamanism."

'Shamanism' is not a 'religion' like Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, the Classic Greek and Roman temple orders etc., because it does not have specific stories, deities, heroes or prophets as a foundation. Its 'foundation' is simply the natural and spirit world in general.

Let us use the following definitions:

"Shamanism is a term used in a variety of anthropological, historical and popular contexts to refer to certain magico-religious practices that involve a practitioner reaching altered states of consciousness in order to encounter and interact with the spirit world. A shaman is a person regarded as having access to, and influence in, the world of benevolent and malevolent spirits, who typically enters a trance state during a ritual, and practices divination and healing." Wiki (Shamanism )

"A priest is a person authorized to perform the sacred rituals of a religion, especially as a mediatory agent between humans and deity(s). They also have the authority or power to administer religious rites; in particular, rites of sacrifice to, and propitiation of, a deity or deities. Their office or position is the priesthood, a term which also may apply to such persons collectively. Priests and priestesses have existed since the earliest of times and in the simplest societies. They exist in all or some branches of Judaism, Christianity, Shintoism, Hinduism and many other religions. They are generally regarded as having positive contact with the deity or deities of the religion to which they subscribe, often interpreting the meaning of events and performing the rituals of the religion. Priests are leaders to whom other believers will often turn for advice on spiritual matters." Wiki (Priest)

A 'shamanist priest' is simply a 'shaman' or 'medicine man'. To add the term 'priest' suggests they belong to a priesthood (like Judaism etc.), which is misleading. Many native tribal cultures are known to have had 'medicine men' or 'shamans': the native Americans and Africans, Papuas, etc.
So it is not something specific for the native traditional Altaians.

You conclude paragraph "The magyarar and Finnar" of chapter 3 "Legacy of the Outcasts" of your book with:

"The Oera Linda Book’s description of the Magyarar’s religion is an exact match of that of Shamanism."

I disagree to that, and will show you why.
From the Sandbach translation that you used:

"They were not wild people, like many of Finda’s race but, they are like the Egiptalandar;
they have priests like them and in their churches they also have statues."

=> Shamans do not have churches and statues.
What do we know of the religious traditions of Egypt?
I don't think that was anything tribal, as they had pharaos; power and wealth were concentrated, just like in the 'priesthoods' of the later 'religions'.

“The priests are the only masters; they call themselves Magyarar, and their headman is known as Magy.
He is high priest and king in one. The rest of the people are of no account, and under their rule."

=> Tribal shamans do not act like kings. The main difference between tribal cultures and the modern ones that have evolved out of priesthoods, is that in tribal cultures wealth and power is not concentrated and limitied to a few families.

"These people do not even have a name but we call them “Finna” because although their festivals are all melancholic and bloody, they are so formal that we are inferior to them in that respect. They are not to be envied, though, because they are slaves to their priests, and much more to their creeds."

=> Again, in tribal cultures people don't enslave each other. Shamans are not the masters of their other tribesmen.

"They believe that evil spirits are everywhere and enter into people and animals, but of Wralda’s spirit they know nothing.
They have stone weapons, the Magyarar of copper.
The Magyarar claims that they can exorcise and recall evil spirits.
The people are always in dreadful fear and there is never any joy to be seen on their faces.”

=> I have shown that exorcism was a common theme in christianity, and in most religions the priests claim or suggest to represent the spirit world or holy spirit.

~ ~ ~

So your statement that OLB’s description of the Magy religion "is an exact match of that of Shamanism" is not right.

Quote originally Posted by Transvaler:

The point I am trying to make is that the OLB, in describing the religion of the “Magyarar” who came from the East, in fact, describes Shamanism from the Altai region in central Asia.

From your post #45, quote, Originally Posted by Transvaler:

When the Fryans (or “proto-Frisians”) founded Athens, they had to deal with the same type of Shamanistic Priests and they were eventually expelled by these priests ... When the Gertmanna went to India, they again came across these Shamanist Priests. ... "... they fled from their customs and religion” (i.e. they fled from Shamanism). ... "... but on account of the priests they likewise went to the west.” (i.e. they also fled from Shamanism) ... When the Shamanists invaded the Indus Valley, the Iranians moved west where the Gertmanna later met them.
The fact that the Ira (or Iranians) were driven out from the East of the Punjab to the West by the Shamanists from Mongolia after the 4.2 ka BP Event...

======

From post #161

There is something interesting about your focus on 'shamanism' as being the supposed 'enemy' of the Fryans.
I will try to explain what.

Jensma's interpretation of the Frya VS Finda/ Magí/ Priests antithesis was:
Protestant Free Thinkers VS orthodox Protestants

Your interpretation seems to be (please correct me if I'm wrong):
Monotheism VS Shamanism or Polytheism

======

From post #164

That you changed "priests" (PRESTERA) into "shamanic priests" was suspicious to me. It does not add anything to your proof that OLB is authentic.

The reason why it irritated me is, that in our colonialist past (imo) we have destroyed many tribal cultures with their traditions of natural (sometimes 'shamanic') medicine, because our religious system dictated that they were evil and/or primitive.

I have had 'mystic' experiences myself (altered states of consciousness), that were healing for me and gave me some personal insight into the mysteries of life and death. It made me understand that there is something like a spirit world, but I cannot see the bible or any religious text as 'word of god'. I can get inspiration out of various spiritual traditions, but I cannot fully indentify with any of them.

The way 'Wralda' is described in the OLB, as spirit of the world, or origin of consciousness (over-oldest), makes sense to me.

The way those PRESTERA in OLB are described (imo) clearly fits more with our bishops and pope (even more so the ones from the past), than with tribal medicine men (shamans).

======

Posted July 1, #189


Thank you for the reply Transvaler.

Quote, originally Posted by Transvaler  

Otharus (...) every so often tries to draw me into a debate about religion that has nothing to do with the Oera Linda Book.

It is easy to see that much of the OLB debate is about religion.

The two of us agree that OLB has to be authentic.

The consequence of this for most people would be a different view upon old history and religion.

Fear for what would be a major paradigm shift is probably one of the main reasons why authenticity was denied and 'believers' were ridiculed.

I am careful not to use the OLB as a 'religious' text and in my translations I try to keep as close to the original as possible, as to not add too much of my own interpretations.

For example, I do not translate FAMNA with "maagden" (virgins) or "priestesses" (as Ottema and Sandbach did), and I do not interpret PRESTERA as "shaman priests" (as you do).

As with every ancient text, it is tempting to project ones own story on it (like Jensma did with his theory about the 19th century controversy between Protestant Free Thinkers and Orthodox Protestantism).

Quote:

He (...) frequently takes a swipe at Christianity despite his laughable “confession” that he enjoys the Sunday services at his local Protestant church. How can you enjoy or identify with any organization whose very core belief (i.e. that Jesus Christ is God incarnated) goes completely against your own conviction (that Jesus Christ was a mere mortal).

I enjoy being in that medieval church and I have felt more than welcome since my first visit. To me a church is a 'house of God' in the first place, and not of his supposed son or prophet. I enjoy listening to the music, bible readings and lectures of the parson. I also had some good private philosophical chats with him. He gave me a book about the OLB from 1927 as a present, that had belonged to his father. I basically enjoy learning about culture and art-history. It is also a social thing and it helps me understand my ancestors (and their problems with religion) better. Besides, there is no other religious, spiritual or philosophical group in my village (900 inhabitants). So it is the only and best available choice.

Do you think one can only appreciate a religion if one agrees with every of its dogmas? Jesus himself (as I understand it) 'took a swipe' at the religion and traditions of his own ancestors and people.

I don't see how any of this is 'laughable', but you might just have a strange sense of humor.

Quote:

Where the OLB describes the religion of the “Magyarar” in Finland, it was their perception of this foreign religion – most likely formed from others’ verbal accounts rather than first hand experiences. It would be naïve to expect the book to have given an accurate and textbook description of it. They more than likely saw the “Head Shaman” as the Magi and all the other shamans as part of the oligarchy.

The first thing that OLB says about those MAGÍ and MÁGJARA, is that they were "like the Egyptians, they have priests like them and now that they have churches they also have statues".

The MAGÍ is as much a "head shaman" as the Pope from Rome is.

Quote:

Reading between the lines, I get the impression (rightly or wrongly) that Otharus is trying to prove that the OLB’s religion was some form, or had elements of Shamanism in it.

That impression is wrong. I actually think early Christianity had more elements of 'shamanism' than the Fryan culture.

Quote:

The OLB’s religion does not even fit Pantheism or Panentheism. In the end I had to conclude that their religion was some form of monotheism, although some questions about their perception of God, as with Zoroastrinism, still remain.

FYI, Jensma in his thesis (written at a theological faculty) uses the term 'Monism' (not Monotheism) to describe the Fryan 'religion'.

Joël Vandemaele ~ 2005

In Semafoor, feb. 2005.
NB: zoals bij de meeste van de hier gepresenteerde bronnen, deel ik niet alle suggesties en conclusies vd auteur!