A discussion with Alewyn Raubenheimer ('Transvaler') on 'Historum'-forum.
Posted June 26th #153
Quote originally Posted by Transvaler (Alewyn):
In fact, the definition of 'shamanism' is not clear, so what is yours?
Quote (wiki):
Wiki: Miracles_of_Jesus. Quote:
OLB p.[050/31]-[052/22]: from the Waraburch at Aldegamude, about the arrival of the Magí (ca. 2100 BC)
They were not wild people, like most of Finda's race;
but, like the Egyptians, they have priests like them
and now that they have churches they also have statues.
OLB p.[055/16]-[056/17]: from the Waraburch at Aldegamude, about the deification of Wodin (ca. 2000 BC)
he dared to disavow and ridicule the spirits of Frya and Wr-alda,
while he bent his free head before the false and deceitful [idol-like] images.
His reign lasted seven years, and then he disappeared.
The Magy said that he was taken up by their gods and still reigned over us
In my perception, shamans are more like tribal medicinemen. They don't have churches, don't worship images or statues, don't let people bow for them or pay them tributes.
I agree with this definition from the Wiki-Shamanism site:
What the OLB-Fryans hated most were priesthoods (PRESTERA) that made people into slaves by creating fear (like the Old-Testament does), deified mortal hero's (like Christianity did with Jesus), priests who collected much wealth by having superstituous people make offerings to the fancy statues they had made.
See this post: Criticism of Religions in OLB on my blog for details.
======
Post #157
Quote originally Posted by Transvaler:
"The traditional religion of the native Altaians is shamanism."
'Shamanism' is not a 'religion' like Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, the Classic Greek and Roman temple orders etc., because it does not have specific stories, deities, heroes or prophets as a foundation. Its 'foundation' is simply the natural and spirit world in general.
Let us use the following definitions:
"Shamanism is a term used in a variety of anthropological, historical and popular contexts to refer to certain magico-religious practices that involve a practitioner reaching altered states of consciousness in order to encounter and interact with the spirit world. A shaman is a person regarded as having access to, and influence in, the world of benevolent and malevolent spirits, who typically enters a trance state during a ritual, and practices divination and healing." Wiki (Shamanism )
"A priest is a person authorized to perform the sacred rituals of a religion, especially as a mediatory agent between humans and deity(s). They also have the authority or power to administer religious rites; in particular, rites of sacrifice to, and propitiation of, a deity or deities. Their office or position is the priesthood, a term which also may apply to such persons collectively. Priests and priestesses have existed since the earliest of times and in the simplest societies. They exist in all or some branches of Judaism, Christianity, Shintoism, Hinduism and many other religions. They are generally regarded as having positive contact with the deity or deities of the religion to which they subscribe, often interpreting the meaning of events and performing the rituals of the religion. Priests are leaders to whom other believers will often turn for advice on spiritual matters." Wiki (Priest)
A 'shamanist priest' is simply a 'shaman' or 'medicine man'. To add the term 'priest' suggests they belong to a priesthood (like Judaism etc.), which is misleading. Many native tribal cultures are known to have had 'medicine men' or 'shamans': the native Americans and Africans, Papuas, etc.
So it is not something specific for the native traditional Altaians.
You conclude paragraph "The magyarar and Finnar" of chapter 3 "Legacy of the Outcasts" of your book with:
"The Oera Linda Book’s description of the Magyarar’s religion is an exact match of that of Shamanism."
I disagree to that, and will show you why.
From the Sandbach translation that you used:
"They were not wild people, like many of Finda’s race but, they are like the Egiptalandar;
they have priests like them and in their churches they also have statues."
=> Shamans do not have churches and statues.
What do we know of the religious traditions of Egypt?
I don't think that was anything tribal, as they had pharaos; power and wealth were concentrated, just like in the 'priesthoods' of the later 'religions'.
“The priests are the only masters; they call themselves Magyarar, and their headman is known as Magy.
He is high priest and king in one. The rest of the people are of no account, and under their rule."
=> Tribal shamans do not act like kings. The main difference between tribal cultures and the modern ones that have evolved out of priesthoods, is that in tribal cultures wealth and power is not concentrated and limitied to a few families.
"These people do not even have a name but we call them “Finna” because although their festivals are all melancholic and bloody, they are so formal that we are inferior to them in that respect. They are not to be envied, though, because they are slaves to their priests, and much more to their creeds."
=> Again, in tribal cultures people don't enslave each other. Shamans are not the masters of their other tribesmen.
"They believe that evil spirits are everywhere and enter into people and animals, but of Wralda’s spirit they know nothing.
They have stone weapons, the Magyarar of copper.
The Magyarar claims that they can exorcise and recall evil spirits.
The people are always in dreadful fear and there is never any joy to be seen on their faces.”
=> I have shown that exorcism was a common theme in christianity, and in most religions the priests claim or suggest to represent the spirit world or holy spirit.
~ ~ ~
So your statement that OLB’s description of the Magy religion "is an exact match of that of Shamanism" is not right.
Quote originally Posted by Transvaler:
From post #161
There is something interesting about your focus on 'shamanism' as being the supposed 'enemy' of the Fryans.
I will try to explain what.
Jensma's interpretation of the Frya VS Finda/ Magí/ Priests antithesis was:
Protestant Free Thinkers VS orthodox Protestants
Your interpretation seems to be (please correct me if I'm wrong):
Monotheism VS Shamanism or Polytheism
======
From post #164
That you changed "priests" (PRESTERA) into "shamanic priests" was suspicious to me. It does not add anything to your proof that OLB is authentic.
The reason why it irritated me is, that in our colonialist past (imo) we have destroyed many tribal cultures with their traditions of natural (sometimes 'shamanic') medicine, because our religious system dictated that they were evil and/or primitive.
I have had 'mystic' experiences myself (altered states of consciousness), that were healing for me and gave me some personal insight into the mysteries of life and death. It made me understand that there is something like a spirit world, but I cannot see the bible or any religious text as 'word of god'. I can get inspiration out of various spiritual traditions, but I cannot fully indentify with any of them.
The way 'Wralda' is described in the OLB, as spirit of the world, or origin of consciousness (over-oldest), makes sense to me.
The way those PRESTERA in OLB are described (imo) clearly fits more with our bishops and pope (even more so the ones from the past), than with tribal medicine men (shamans).
======
Posted July 1, #189
Thank you for the reply Transvaler.
Quote, originally Posted by Transvaler
The two of us agree that OLB has to be authentic.
The consequence of this for most people would be a different view upon old history and religion.
Fear for what would be a major paradigm shift is probably one of the main reasons why authenticity was denied and 'believers' were ridiculed.
I am careful not to use the OLB as a 'religious' text and in my translations I try to keep as close to the original as possible, as to not add too much of my own interpretations.
For example, I do not translate FAMNA with "maagden" (virgins) or "priestesses" (as Ottema and Sandbach did), and I do not interpret PRESTERA as "shaman priests" (as you do).
As with every ancient text, it is tempting to project ones own story on it (like Jensma did with his theory about the 19th century controversy between Protestant Free Thinkers and Orthodox Protestantism).
Quote:
Do you think one can only appreciate a religion if one agrees with every of its dogmas? Jesus himself (as I understand it) 'took a swipe' at the religion and traditions of his own ancestors and people.
I don't see how any of this is 'laughable', but you might just have a strange sense of humor.
Quote:
The MAGÍ is as much a "head shaman" as the Pope from Rome is.
Quote:
Quote:
Posted June 26th #153
Quote originally Posted by Transvaler (Alewyn):
Hinduism and Buddhism are not Shamanistic religions.I may just mention here that this Old Persian religion, Zoroastrianism, is a monotheistic religion and so is the religion of the Oera Linda Book. This is in contrast to the polytheistic Hinduism, Buddhism and other Shamanistic religions in the region. Buddhism is not polytheistic.
In fact, the definition of 'shamanism' is not clear, so what is yours?
Quote (wiki):
Quote, originally Posted by Transvaler:The exact definition and use of the term "shamanism" has been highly debated by scholars, with no clear consensus on the issue.
Typical for 'shamanism'? Then was Jesus a 'shaman' too?"The Magyarar claims that they can exorcise and recall evil spirits. The people are always in dreadful fear and there is never any joy to be seen on their faces” (Here we have a typical description of Shamanism)
Wiki: Miracles_of_Jesus. Quote:
Wiki: Exorcism. Quote:John 21:25 states that "Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, ...even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written." These miracles may be categorized into four groups: cures, exorcisms, resurrection of the dead and control over nature.
Here is what the OLB says about the 'religion' of the MAGÍ and MÁGJARA:In Catholic Christianity, exorcisms are performed in the name of Jesus Christ.
OLB p.[050/31]-[052/22]: from the Waraburch at Aldegamude, about the arrival of the Magí (ca. 2100 BC)
They were not wild people, like most of Finda's race;
but, like the Egyptians, they have priests like them
and now that they have churches they also have statues.
OLB p.[055/16]-[056/17]: from the Waraburch at Aldegamude, about the deification of Wodin (ca. 2000 BC)
he dared to disavow and ridicule the spirits of Frya and Wr-alda,
while he bent his free head before the false and deceitful [idol-like] images.
His reign lasted seven years, and then he disappeared.
The Magy said that he was taken up by their gods and still reigned over us
In my perception, shamans are more like tribal medicinemen. They don't have churches, don't worship images or statues, don't let people bow for them or pay them tributes.
I agree with this definition from the Wiki-Shamanism site:
Shamanism is a term used in a variety of anthropological, historical and popular contexts to refer to certain magico-religious practices that involve a practitioner reaching altered states of consciousness in order to encounter and interact with the spirit world. A shaman is a person regarded as having access to, and influence in, the world of benevolent and malevolent spirits, who typically enters a trance state during a ritual, and practices divination and healing.
What the OLB-Fryans hated most were priesthoods (PRESTERA) that made people into slaves by creating fear (like the Old-Testament does), deified mortal hero's (like Christianity did with Jesus), priests who collected much wealth by having superstituous people make offerings to the fancy statues they had made.
See this post: Criticism of Religions in OLB on my blog for details.
======
Post #157
Quote originally Posted by Transvaler:
I suppose that the source for the first sentence of your quote is Wiki (Altai_Republic):"The traditional religion of the indigenous Altaians is called 'Shamanism'. This is a set of beliefs and practices whereby practioners communicate with the supernatural. A shamanist priest is known as a shaman who acts as an intermediary between the human and spirit worlds. They are supposedly capable of entering supernatural realms to provide answers for humans and to treat illnesses. Shamanism dates back to the Neolithic period and perhaps even as far back as the Paleolithic. The religion was practiced throughout the Iron Age by the various Teutonic tribes and the Fino-Baltic peoples.”
"The traditional religion of the native Altaians is shamanism."
'Shamanism' is not a 'religion' like Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, the Classic Greek and Roman temple orders etc., because it does not have specific stories, deities, heroes or prophets as a foundation. Its 'foundation' is simply the natural and spirit world in general.
Let us use the following definitions:
"Shamanism is a term used in a variety of anthropological, historical and popular contexts to refer to certain magico-religious practices that involve a practitioner reaching altered states of consciousness in order to encounter and interact with the spirit world. A shaman is a person regarded as having access to, and influence in, the world of benevolent and malevolent spirits, who typically enters a trance state during a ritual, and practices divination and healing." Wiki (Shamanism )
"A priest is a person authorized to perform the sacred rituals of a religion, especially as a mediatory agent between humans and deity(s). They also have the authority or power to administer religious rites; in particular, rites of sacrifice to, and propitiation of, a deity or deities. Their office or position is the priesthood, a term which also may apply to such persons collectively. Priests and priestesses have existed since the earliest of times and in the simplest societies. They exist in all or some branches of Judaism, Christianity, Shintoism, Hinduism and many other religions. They are generally regarded as having positive contact with the deity or deities of the religion to which they subscribe, often interpreting the meaning of events and performing the rituals of the religion. Priests are leaders to whom other believers will often turn for advice on spiritual matters." Wiki (Priest)
A 'shamanist priest' is simply a 'shaman' or 'medicine man'. To add the term 'priest' suggests they belong to a priesthood (like Judaism etc.), which is misleading. Many native tribal cultures are known to have had 'medicine men' or 'shamans': the native Americans and Africans, Papuas, etc.
So it is not something specific for the native traditional Altaians.
You conclude paragraph "The magyarar and Finnar" of chapter 3 "Legacy of the Outcasts" of your book with:
"The Oera Linda Book’s description of the Magyarar’s religion is an exact match of that of Shamanism."
I disagree to that, and will show you why.
From the Sandbach translation that you used:
"They were not wild people, like many of Finda’s race but, they are like the Egiptalandar;
they have priests like them and in their churches they also have statues."
=> Shamans do not have churches and statues.
What do we know of the religious traditions of Egypt?
I don't think that was anything tribal, as they had pharaos; power and wealth were concentrated, just like in the 'priesthoods' of the later 'religions'.
“The priests are the only masters; they call themselves Magyarar, and their headman is known as Magy.
He is high priest and king in one. The rest of the people are of no account, and under their rule."
=> Tribal shamans do not act like kings. The main difference between tribal cultures and the modern ones that have evolved out of priesthoods, is that in tribal cultures wealth and power is not concentrated and limitied to a few families.
"These people do not even have a name but we call them “Finna” because although their festivals are all melancholic and bloody, they are so formal that we are inferior to them in that respect. They are not to be envied, though, because they are slaves to their priests, and much more to their creeds."
=> Again, in tribal cultures people don't enslave each other. Shamans are not the masters of their other tribesmen.
"They believe that evil spirits are everywhere and enter into people and animals, but of Wralda’s spirit they know nothing.
They have stone weapons, the Magyarar of copper.
The Magyarar claims that they can exorcise and recall evil spirits.
The people are always in dreadful fear and there is never any joy to be seen on their faces.”
=> I have shown that exorcism was a common theme in christianity, and in most religions the priests claim or suggest to represent the spirit world or holy spirit.
~ ~ ~
So your statement that OLB’s description of the Magy religion "is an exact match of that of Shamanism" is not right.
Quote originally Posted by Transvaler:
From your post #45, quote, Originally Posted by Transvaler:The point I am trying to make is that the OLB, in describing the religion of the “Magyarar” who came from the East, in fact, describes Shamanism from the Altai region in central Asia.
======When the Fryans (or “proto-Frisians”) founded Athens, they had to deal with the same type of Shamanistic Priests and they were eventually expelled by these priests...When the Gertmanna went to India, they again came across these Shamanist Priests...."... they fled from their customs and religion” (i.e. they fled from Shamanism)...."... but on account of the priests they likewise went to the west.” (i.e. they also fled from Shamanism)...When the Shamanists invaded the Indus Valley, the Iranians moved west where the Gertmanna later met them.The fact that the Ira (or Iranians) were driven out from the East of the Punjab to the West by the Shamanists from Mongolia after the 4.2 ka BP Event...
From post #161
There is something interesting about your focus on 'shamanism' as being the supposed 'enemy' of the Fryans.
I will try to explain what.
Jensma's interpretation of the Frya VS Finda/ Magí/ Priests antithesis was:
Protestant Free Thinkers VS orthodox Protestants
Your interpretation seems to be (please correct me if I'm wrong):
Monotheism VS Shamanism or Polytheism
======
From post #164
That you changed "priests" (PRESTERA) into "shamanic priests" was suspicious to me. It does not add anything to your proof that OLB is authentic.
The reason why it irritated me is, that in our colonialist past (imo) we have destroyed many tribal cultures with their traditions of natural (sometimes 'shamanic') medicine, because our religious system dictated that they were evil and/or primitive.
I have had 'mystic' experiences myself (altered states of consciousness), that were healing for me and gave me some personal insight into the mysteries of life and death. It made me understand that there is something like a spirit world, but I cannot see the bible or any religious text as 'word of god'. I can get inspiration out of various spiritual traditions, but I cannot fully indentify with any of them.
The way 'Wralda' is described in the OLB, as spirit of the world, or origin of consciousness (over-oldest), makes sense to me.
The way those PRESTERA in OLB are described (imo) clearly fits more with our bishops and pope (even more so the ones from the past), than with tribal medicine men (shamans).
======
Posted July 1, #189
Thank you for the reply Transvaler.
Quote, originally Posted by Transvaler
Otharus (...) every so often tries to draw me into a debate about religion that has nothing to do with the Oera Linda Book.It is easy to see that much of the OLB debate is about religion.
The two of us agree that OLB has to be authentic.
The consequence of this for most people would be a different view upon old history and religion.
Fear for what would be a major paradigm shift is probably one of the main reasons why authenticity was denied and 'believers' were ridiculed.
I am careful not to use the OLB as a 'religious' text and in my translations I try to keep as close to the original as possible, as to not add too much of my own interpretations.
For example, I do not translate FAMNA with "maagden" (virgins) or "priestesses" (as Ottema and Sandbach did), and I do not interpret PRESTERA as "shaman priests" (as you do).
As with every ancient text, it is tempting to project ones own story on it (like Jensma did with his theory about the 19th century controversy between Protestant Free Thinkers and Orthodox Protestantism).
Quote:
He (...) frequently takes a swipe at Christianity despite his laughable “confession” that he enjoys the Sunday services at his local Protestant church. How can you enjoy or identify with any organization whose very core belief (i.e. that Jesus Christ is God incarnated) goes completely against your own conviction (that Jesus Christ was a mere mortal).I enjoy being in that medieval church and I have felt more than welcome since my first visit. To me a church is a 'house of God' in the first place, and not of his supposed son or prophet. I enjoy listening to the music, bible readings and lectures of the parson. I also had some good private philosophical chats with him. He gave me a book about the OLB from 1927 as a present, that had belonged to his father. I basically enjoy learning about culture and art-history. It is also a social thing and it helps me understand my ancestors (and their problems with religion) better. Besides, there is no other religious, spiritual or philosophical group in my village (900 inhabitants). So it is the only and best available choice.
Do you think one can only appreciate a religion if one agrees with every of its dogmas? Jesus himself (as I understand it) 'took a swipe' at the religion and traditions of his own ancestors and people.
I don't see how any of this is 'laughable', but you might just have a strange sense of humor.
Quote:
Where the OLB describes the religion of the “Magyarar” in Finland, it was their perception of this foreign religion – most likely formed from others’ verbal accounts rather than first hand experiences. It would be naïve to expect the book to have given an accurate and textbook description of it. They more than likely saw the “Head Shaman” as the Magi and all the other shamans as part of the oligarchy.The first thing that OLB says about those MAGÍ and MÁGJARA, is that they were "like the Egyptians, they have priests like them and now that they have churches they also have statues".
The MAGÍ is as much a "head shaman" as the Pope from Rome is.
Quote:
Reading between the lines, I get the impression (rightly or wrongly) that Otharus is trying to prove that the OLB’s religion was some form, or had elements of Shamanism in it.That impression is wrong. I actually think early Christianity had more elements of 'shamanism' than the Fryan culture.
Quote:
The OLB’s religion does not even fit Pantheism or Panentheism. In the end I had to conclude that their religion was some form of monotheism, although some questions about their perception of God, as with Zoroastrinism, still remain.FYI, Jensma in his thesis (written at a theological faculty) uses the term 'Monism' (not Monotheism) to describe the Fryan 'religion'.
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