Posted 01 April 2013 - 09:15 PM
Abramelin said that if the OLB were authentic, more copies should have been saved (or something like that).
My answer to that is in the following quote (translation below).
" In een handschrift, berustend in de Koninklijke Bibliotheek te 's-Gravenhage, bevindt zich tussen twee moraliserende leerdichten en enige korte uiteenzettingen van de katholieke leer, de legende van Beatrijs, een der parels van onze middelnederlandse letterkunde.
Genoemd handschrift is het enige, waarin zij bewaard werd, een bewijs hoe broos ons bezit van zulke teksten is. Immers, was dit handschrift, zoals vele andere, verloren gegaan, wij zouden niet hebben geweten, dat de oude Maria-legende op onze bodem haar schoonste vorm heeft gekregen, waardoor zij alle buitenlandse bewerkingen verre overtreft."
From: "Beatrijs ~ Met inleiding en aantekeningen van Dr. W.H. Beuken" (Achtste druk, 1972): Inleiding, blz. 3.
Translation:
" In a manuscript, resting in the Royal Library at The Hague, between two moralising, didactic poems and some short disquisitions of the catholic doctrine, there is the legend of Beatrijs, one of the highlights of our middledutch literature.
This manuscript is the only version in which it was saved, illustrating how brittle our possession of such texts is. Indeed, had this manuscript been lost, like many others, we would not have known, that the old Mary-legend got its most beautiful shape in our territory, which makes her overtop all foreign adaptations by far."
My answer to that is in the following quote (translation below).
" In een handschrift, berustend in de Koninklijke Bibliotheek te 's-Gravenhage, bevindt zich tussen twee moraliserende leerdichten en enige korte uiteenzettingen van de katholieke leer, de legende van Beatrijs, een der parels van onze middelnederlandse letterkunde.
Genoemd handschrift is het enige, waarin zij bewaard werd, een bewijs hoe broos ons bezit van zulke teksten is. Immers, was dit handschrift, zoals vele andere, verloren gegaan, wij zouden niet hebben geweten, dat de oude Maria-legende op onze bodem haar schoonste vorm heeft gekregen, waardoor zij alle buitenlandse bewerkingen verre overtreft."
From: "Beatrijs ~ Met inleiding en aantekeningen van Dr. W.H. Beuken" (Achtste druk, 1972): Inleiding, blz. 3.
Translation:
" In a manuscript, resting in the Royal Library at The Hague, between two moralising, didactic poems and some short disquisitions of the catholic doctrine, there is the legend of Beatrijs, one of the highlights of our middledutch literature.
This manuscript is the only version in which it was saved, illustrating how brittle our possession of such texts is. Indeed, had this manuscript been lost, like many others, we would not have known, that the old Mary-legend got its most beautiful shape in our territory, which makes her overtop all foreign adaptations by far."
### Posted 01 April 2013 - 09:27 PM
One more relating to the word "OD" (for the record):
On Frisian coins of ca. 1100, the name Otto was spelled "ODTO", and some coins of the 11th century have "ODDODUX" (according to author referring to Ordulf).
Source: "Friese Graafschappen tussen Zwin en Wezer", by dr. Dirk Jan Henstra (2012), p.119 and131.
On Frisian coins of ca. 1100, the name Otto was spelled "ODTO", and some coins of the 11th century have "ODDODUX" (according to author referring to Ordulf).
Source: "Friese Graafschappen tussen Zwin en Wezer", by dr. Dirk Jan Henstra (2012), p.119 and131.
~
From the same book, on page 156 (about late middle ages; 13th century):
"De enige manier voor een graaf om gezag in Friese gebieden te verwerven was hetzij met geweld hetzij middels verdragen na bedreiging met geweld."
=>
"The only way for a count to acquire authority in Frisian territories was either with violence or through treaties after threats of violence."
"De enige manier voor een graaf om gezag in Friese gebieden te verwerven was hetzij met geweld hetzij middels verdragen na bedreiging met geweld."
=>
"The only way for a count to acquire authority in Frisian territories was either with violence or through treaties after threats of violence."
### Posted 02 April 2013 - 11:46 AM
Abramelin, on 02 April 2013 - 09:43 AM, said:
We are talking about a chronicle that contained many laws and regulations. You can't expect that everyone all over Fryan territory knew all these laws and regulations by heart, so copies of at least these laws and regulations must have been made.
Such law books must have been copied over and over again because they would wear due to frequent use.
Such law books must have been copied over and over again because they would wear due to frequent use.
Of course there must have been more copies, but the Nazis and Communists were not the first (nor the last!) to destroy texts they did not like.
Besides destruction from invaders and wars, many sources will simply have fallen apart in our wet climate, or used as fuel in cold, dark winters. For most of the past people struggled to survive and had better things to do than copy a book that had no direct relevance. Others will simply have been thrown away, as happens nowadays: when old people die, their children or grandchildren throw away things they don't value. As Apol said, for many centuries, maybe even over 2000 years, it will have been extremely dangerous to have these texts. Because enemies might think burning them is not enough: people who (possibly) know the information (and might write it down again) will have to die too.
Also: there may be more texts in private collections or secret archives. After what happened with Cornelis Over the Linden - being accused of lying and all - who would bring a family treasure like that to a museum or historical society like he did?!
Mind my words: as soon as OLB gets the attention it deserves, more sources that confirm it will appear.
### Posted 02 April 2013 - 02:48 PM
Abramelin, on 02 April 2013 - 12:18 PM, said:
And we still find Roman (yes!) papyri that are around 2000 years old [...]
The Romans also inscribed on stone, and though the contents are obviously 'pagan', they were not destroyed and we can still view them in many museums.
The Romans also inscribed on stone, and though the contents are obviously 'pagan', they were not destroyed and we can still view them in many museums.
That fits in our belief system and was not target of a longlasting and fanatic cultural genocide as our nordic prechristian culture was.
Quote
What happened to CodL happened 150 years ago.
Don't think light of that. He was (falsely) branded a lying fraudster in public and ridiculed.
Quote
Things have changed. If let's say some Greek family owned a Fryan document, why would they keep hiding it, even now?!
People hide all possible sorts of things.
They have excellent reasons to not trust their authorities.
They may have had similar instructions as Liko gave:
NE LÉT THA AGON ÉNIS PAPEKAPPE
TACH NIMMERTHE OVER THISSA SKRIFTA NE WÉJA
There may also be extremely rich people - from a religion or lifestyle that would not benefit from Fryan thinking entering the public domain - who would offer a good prize for it, and then keep it for themselves (or ritually burn it).
Quote
They could have the paper dated, the text analyzed, and so on. And if this new MS appeared to be from the 13h century, then the whole discussion about the OLB will have to start afresh.
Good that you mention that. The OLB paper has been analysed for many years now and the only reports that have come out so far are vague - no clear answer to the basic questions: when, where and how made? Artificially coloured, if so, how? With the modern techniques this should be easy.
The overestimated amateurs who do the research already decided before they even started that the paper had to befrom the 19th century and made in Western Europe or America. That's why they can't get their results straight. They don't even consider the possibility that it might be Chinese or Byzantine paper.
About the OLB-language: After Beckering Vinckers wrote his hogwash report in 1876, no linguist wrote a word on the topic. It is burked. Not a confirmation that what BV wrote is right, no refinement of it.
### Posted 02 April 2013 - 05:21 PM
Abramelin, on 02 April 2013 - 03:27 PM, said:
I keep having problems with authorities socalled suppressing information because it might turn history upside down.
Not only because it would turn history upside down, but mainly because it might undermine the current (established) state of affairs.
The Batavian revolution (in NL, late 18th C.) and a more recent revolution (mainly in Germany, thirties) were also (partly) driven by prechristian sentiments.
### Posted 02 April 2013 - 05:26 PM
Abramelin, on 02 April 2013 - 03:27 PM, said:
Were those finds hidden for the general public? No.
There is still hope for the OLB. If it would have surfaced today it would be received differently, but because it got no chance from the start, there is now much prejudice that needs to be overcome first.
### Posted 02 April 2013 - 05:29 PM
Abramelin, on 02 April 2013 - 03:27 PM, said:
So if another copy was found, would that not clear his name? And preferably a copy found in another country?
Yes, it would. Time will tell. The subject may first need to become less controversial and more known.
Abramelin, on 02 April 2013 - 03:27 PM, said:
Extremely rich people don't give a flying fk about public opinion because they don't have to.
Who has much can lose much.
The top of the pyramid of power is supported by lower layers and, ulimately by the people that are now their slaves (living in the illusion that they are 'free').
Niemand ist mehr Sklave, als der sich für frei hält, ohne es zu sein.
=
None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.
Johann Wolfgang von Goethe (1749–1832)
### Posted 04 April 2013 - 11:22 AM
Some notes to the existing translations
OLB (original manuscript) page 4, line 25 to page 5, line 7;
followed by the Dutch and English translations from Ottema and Sandbach (1876, page 9-11).
SAWERSA J ÀFTA FRYA.S.BÀRN WILLE [1]
NÀMMER TO WINNADE [2]
HOR HRVCH [=> THRVCH] LESA [=> LESTA] NER THRVCH WÉPNE [3]
SA HAGATH J TO NVDANDE [4]
HAT [=> THAT] JVWE TOGHATERA ÀFTA FRYA WIVA WRDE. [5]
bijaldien gij echte Fryas kinderen wilt zijn,
nimmer te overwinnen
noch door list noch door wapenen,
zoo behoort gij er voor te waken,
dat uwe dochters echte Fryas vrouwen worden.
if you wish to remain true children of Frya,
never to be vanquished
by fraud or arms,
you must take care
to bring up your daughters as true Frya's daughters.
BÀRN MOT MÀN LÉRA. [6]
HO GRAT VS LÁND ÉR WÉSEN SÍ.
HOKKE GRATE MÀNNISKA VSA ÉTHLA WÉRON. [7]
HO GRÁT WI JETA SEND
SA WI VS DÀL LEDSATH BY ORA. [8]
Den kinderen moet men leeren,
hoe groot ons land weleer geweest is,
hoe groote mannen onze voorvaderen waren,
hoe groot wij nog zijn,
zoo wij ons neder liggen (vergelijken) bij anderen:
You must teach the children
how great our country has been,
what great men our forefathers were,
how great we still are,
if we compare ourselves to others.
MÀN MOT TÁLA HJAM [9]
FON THA WICHARDA ÀND FON HJARA WICHANDLIKA DÉDUM. [10]
ÀK WRA FÀRA SÉ.TOCHTA. [11]
men moet hun vertellen
van de zeehelden en van hunne heldhaftige daden,
ook over de verre zeetochten.
You must tell them
of the sea-heroes, of their mighty deeds
and distant voyages.
AL THISSA TÀLLINGA [12]
HAGATH DÉN TO WERTHANDE BY THÉRE HÉRD. [13]
VPPA HÉM ÀND HWÉR.ET WÉSA MÉI.
SÁ BY BLÍSKIP AS BÍ TARUM. [14]
Alle deze verhalen
behooren gedaan te worden bij den haard,
op het hiem, en waar het wezen moge,
zoo in blijdschap, als bij tranen.
All these stories
must be told by the fireside
and in the field, wherever it may be,
in times of joy or sorrow;
MEM [=> MEN] SKIL.ET STANDFÀST KVMA [15]
AN DET BRYN ÀND AN DÀT HIRTA. [16]
THÀN MOTON ALLE LÉRINGA [17]
OVERA WÉRA JVWERA WIVA ÀND TOGHATERA THÉR.IN STRÁMA.
Maar zal het standhoudend komen
in het brein en in het hart,
dan moeten alle leeringen
over de lippen uwer vrouwen en dochteren daarin vloeijen.
and if you wish to impress it
on the brains and the hearts of your sons,
you must let it flow
through the lips of your wives and your daughters.
Notes
[1] SAWERSA J ÀFTA FRYA.S.BÀRN WILLE
Ottema translated "WILLE" as "wilt zijn" (wish to be), Sandbach as "wish to remain". Jensma assumes that the word "BILYWA" was forgotten by the copyist and translates "wilt blijven" (wish to remain).
These are all interpretations, assuming that the Fryas believed in a sort of reincanation; that they would live forth in their children. Of course this is possible, but the text literally says: "if you want real Fryas-children" (indien u echte Fryaskinderen wilt), in other words: if you want your offspring to be real children of Frya. This is not the same as "if you want to be" or "to remain", unless one assumes that parents live forth in their descendants.
[2] NÀMMER TO WINNADE
Sandbach has "never to be vanquished". I'd suggest "never to be won".
[3] HOR THRVCH LESTA NER THRVCH WÉPNE
S: (never) by fraud or arms => nor through sleight, nor through weapons
[4] HAGATH J TO NVDANDE
This is agood [changed 28-5-2019] not so good example to show that the OLB language is not a simple one-on-one translation from 19th century Dutch into Oldfrisian, as Knul claims.
O: behoort gij er voor te waken
S: you must take care
More literally it would be "dient u te noden" (archaic for urge),which sounds absurd.
[5] THAT JVWE TOGHATERA ÀFTA FRYA WIVA WRDE
O: dat uwe dochters echte Fryas vrouwen worden
S: to bring up your daughters as true Frya's daughters
"FRYA WIVA" can be translated as "Frya wives" or "free wives". Sandbach's translation is not good IMO. I'd suggest: "that your daughters become true free (Frya) wives".
[6] BÀRN MOT MÀN LÉRA
S: You must teach the children => One must teach children (likewise [9])
[7] HOKKE GRATE MÀNNISKA VSA ÉTHLA WÉRON
Both Ottema and Sandbach are wrong.
O: hoe groote mannen onze voorvaderen waren
S: what great men our forefathers were
"MÀNNISKA" is "people" (Dutch/ German: mensen/ menschen) and "ÉTHLA" is ancestors, so this fragment is sex-neutral.
[8] SA WI VS DÀL LEDSATH BY ORA
S: if we compare ourselves to others
Literally: "as we lay us down by others".
[9] MÀN MOT TÁLA HJAM
S: "You must tell them" => "One must tell them" (as [6])
[10] FON THA WICHARDA ÀND FON HJARA WICHANDLIKA DÉDUM
O: van de zeehelden en van hunne heldhaftige daden
S: of the sea-heroes, of their mighty deeds
"WICHARDA" simply means "heroes". I'd change "mighty" into "heroic".
[11] ÀK WRA FÀRA SÉ.TOCHTA
S: and distant voyages => also of distant sea-voyages
[12] AL THISSA TÀLLINGA
O: Alle deze verhalen => vertellingen
S: All these stories => tales
[13] BY THÉRE HÉRD
S: by the fireside => hearth
[14] SÁ BY BLÍSKIP AS BÍ TARUM
S: in times of joy or sorrow => tears
[15] MEN SKIL.ET STANDFÀST KVMA
S: and if you wish to impress it
=> but shall it come standing-fast (permanent)
[16] AN DET BRYN ÀND AN DÀT HIRTA
S: on the brains and the hearts
of your sons
=> on the brain and on the heart
[17] THÀN MOTON ALLE LÉRINGA
OVERA WÉRA JVWERA WIVA ÀND TOGHATERA THÉR.IN STRÁMA
S: you must let it flow
through the lips of your wives and your daughters
=> then all teachings must
stream over the lips of your wives and daughters
~
It is striking how Ottema and Sandbach have changed this fragment into something more male-dominant.
Now I'd like to ask a native English speaker (Puzzler?) to summarise the meaning of this fragment, in your own words, as I think it explains very well why the enemies of the Fryas would have wanted to destroy the old indigenous written and oral traditions.
OLB (original manuscript) page 4, line 25 to page 5, line 7;
followed by the Dutch and English translations from Ottema and Sandbach (1876, page 9-11).
SAWERSA J ÀFTA FRYA.S.BÀRN WILLE [1]
NÀMMER TO WINNADE [2]
HOR HRVCH [=> THRVCH] LESA [=> LESTA] NER THRVCH WÉPNE [3]
SA HAGATH J TO NVDANDE [4]
HAT [=> THAT] JVWE TOGHATERA ÀFTA FRYA WIVA WRDE. [5]
bijaldien gij echte Fryas kinderen wilt zijn,
nimmer te overwinnen
noch door list noch door wapenen,
zoo behoort gij er voor te waken,
dat uwe dochters echte Fryas vrouwen worden.
if you wish to remain true children of Frya,
never to be vanquished
by fraud or arms,
you must take care
to bring up your daughters as true Frya's daughters.
BÀRN MOT MÀN LÉRA. [6]
HO GRAT VS LÁND ÉR WÉSEN SÍ.
HOKKE GRATE MÀNNISKA VSA ÉTHLA WÉRON. [7]
HO GRÁT WI JETA SEND
SA WI VS DÀL LEDSATH BY ORA. [8]
Den kinderen moet men leeren,
hoe groot ons land weleer geweest is,
hoe groote mannen onze voorvaderen waren,
hoe groot wij nog zijn,
zoo wij ons neder liggen (vergelijken) bij anderen:
You must teach the children
how great our country has been,
what great men our forefathers were,
how great we still are,
if we compare ourselves to others.
MÀN MOT TÁLA HJAM [9]
FON THA WICHARDA ÀND FON HJARA WICHANDLIKA DÉDUM. [10]
ÀK WRA FÀRA SÉ.TOCHTA. [11]
men moet hun vertellen
van de zeehelden en van hunne heldhaftige daden,
ook over de verre zeetochten.
You must tell them
of the sea-heroes, of their mighty deeds
and distant voyages.
AL THISSA TÀLLINGA [12]
HAGATH DÉN TO WERTHANDE BY THÉRE HÉRD. [13]
VPPA HÉM ÀND HWÉR.ET WÉSA MÉI.
SÁ BY BLÍSKIP AS BÍ TARUM. [14]
Alle deze verhalen
behooren gedaan te worden bij den haard,
op het hiem, en waar het wezen moge,
zoo in blijdschap, als bij tranen.
All these stories
must be told by the fireside
and in the field, wherever it may be,
in times of joy or sorrow;
MEM [=> MEN] SKIL.ET STANDFÀST KVMA [15]
AN DET BRYN ÀND AN DÀT HIRTA. [16]
THÀN MOTON ALLE LÉRINGA [17]
OVERA WÉRA JVWERA WIVA ÀND TOGHATERA THÉR.IN STRÁMA.
Maar zal het standhoudend komen
in het brein en in het hart,
dan moeten alle leeringen
over de lippen uwer vrouwen en dochteren daarin vloeijen.
and if you wish to impress it
on the brains and the hearts of your sons,
you must let it flow
through the lips of your wives and your daughters.
Notes
[1] SAWERSA J ÀFTA FRYA.S.BÀRN WILLE
Ottema translated "WILLE" as "wilt zijn" (wish to be), Sandbach as "wish to remain". Jensma assumes that the word "BILYWA" was forgotten by the copyist and translates "wilt blijven" (wish to remain).
These are all interpretations, assuming that the Fryas believed in a sort of reincanation; that they would live forth in their children. Of course this is possible, but the text literally says: "if you want real Fryas-children" (indien u echte Fryaskinderen wilt), in other words: if you want your offspring to be real children of Frya. This is not the same as "if you want to be" or "to remain", unless one assumes that parents live forth in their descendants.
[2] NÀMMER TO WINNADE
Sandbach has "never to be vanquished". I'd suggest "never to be won".
[3] HOR THRVCH LESTA NER THRVCH WÉPNE
S: (never) by fraud or arms => nor through sleight, nor through weapons
[4] HAGATH J TO NVDANDE
This is a
O: behoort gij er voor te waken
S: you must take care
More literally it would be "dient u te noden" (archaic for urge),
[5] THAT JVWE TOGHATERA ÀFTA FRYA WIVA WRDE
O: dat uwe dochters echte Fryas vrouwen worden
S: to bring up your daughters as true Frya's daughters
"FRYA WIVA" can be translated as "Frya wives" or "free wives". Sandbach's translation is not good IMO. I'd suggest: "that your daughters become true free (Frya) wives".
[6] BÀRN MOT MÀN LÉRA
S: You must teach the children => One must teach children (likewise [9])
[7] HOKKE GRATE MÀNNISKA VSA ÉTHLA WÉRON
Both Ottema and Sandbach are wrong.
O: hoe groote mannen onze voorvaderen waren
S: what great men our forefathers were
"MÀNNISKA" is "people" (Dutch/ German: mensen/ menschen) and "ÉTHLA" is ancestors, so this fragment is sex-neutral.
[8] SA WI VS DÀL LEDSATH BY ORA
S: if we compare ourselves to others
Literally: "as we lay us down by others".
[9] MÀN MOT TÁLA HJAM
S: "You must tell them" => "One must tell them" (as [6])
[10] FON THA WICHARDA ÀND FON HJARA WICHANDLIKA DÉDUM
O: van de zeehelden en van hunne heldhaftige daden
S: of the sea-heroes, of their mighty deeds
"WICHARDA" simply means "heroes". I'd change "mighty" into "heroic".
[11] ÀK WRA FÀRA SÉ.TOCHTA
S: and distant voyages => also of distant sea-voyages
[12] AL THISSA TÀLLINGA
O: Alle deze verhalen => vertellingen
S: All these stories => tales
[13] BY THÉRE HÉRD
S: by the fireside => hearth
[14] SÁ BY BLÍSKIP AS BÍ TARUM
S: in times of joy or sorrow => tears
[15] MEN SKIL.ET STANDFÀST KVMA
S: and if you wish to impress it
=> but shall it come standing-fast (permanent)
[16] AN DET BRYN ÀND AN DÀT HIRTA
S: on the brains and the hearts
=> on the brain and on the heart
[17] THÀN MOTON ALLE LÉRINGA
OVERA WÉRA JVWERA WIVA ÀND TOGHATERA THÉR.IN STRÁMA
S: you must let it flow
through the lips of your wives and your daughters
=> then all teachings must
stream over the lips of your wives and daughters
~
It is striking how Ottema and Sandbach have changed this fragment into something more male-dominant.
Now I'd like to ask a native English speaker (Puzzler?) to summarise the meaning of this fragment, in your own words, as I think it explains very well why the enemies of the Fryas would have wanted to destroy the old indigenous written and oral traditions.
### Posted 04 April 2013 - 11:49 AM
Abramelin, on 02 April 2013 - 10:37 PM, said:
I don't see any "pre-christian sentiment" here.
LOL - why do you think it is named the BATAVIAN revolution? Mind the symbolism (women, fasces, etc):
### Posted 04 April 2013 - 11:56 AM
NO-ID-EA, on 03 April 2013 - 12:38 PM, said:
Tha wepmen weren iwaxen.......The men were numerous
and tha heore nutene..................and the cattle abundant.......nutene = abundant so maybe a nuts connection ??
and tha heore nutene..................and the cattle abundant.......nutene = abundant so maybe a nuts connection ??
"wepmen - iwaxen" => weapon-men (warriers) grown (in number)?
"nutene" seems indeed connected to enough (Dutch: genoeg / genoegen / geneugte / genoten)
### Posted 04 April 2013 - 12:45 PM
Concerning the sensitivity of the info in the OLB, and earlier attempts to intimidate its advocates, some relevant fragments.
Cornelis Over de Linden to Dr. Ottema, 16-11-1871:
I don't have the slightest doubts that one day the truth will come float to the surface, but now that I have studied your translation, I figure that the laws described in it are very radical, and that when the theology it teaches would become that of the people again, all sorts of clergymen would have to find a new job. That is why I think they will oppose it as much as is in their power.
Dr. Ottema to L.F. Over de Linden, 24-06-1876:
I wish someone would act who is courageous enough to defend the OLB in public, without fear for the systematic intimidation.
Because all the howling is intimidation, started by Spectator magazine and systematically sustained.
There are enough proponents, but they dare not speak, out of fear of being declared fool or villain.
Source: fryskednis/letters-ottema-over-de-linden
~
Fragment of "Het Oera-Linda-Boek in Duitschland en hier" (The OLB in Germany and here), by Dr. Murk de Jong (1939), about the way Herman Wirth was silenced by Nazi-'scientists'.
Translation: With a (shortened) translation he had made it accessible for the German people. It was a smasher. Teachers took it to school to read it to the youth, like Wirth did for his students at university. An Oera-Linda-cult impended, with Wirth as its prophet.
But also a crisis in German science. [...]
In feverish fuss all was done to crush Wirth or the OLB, that was virtually the same. [...]
Finally on the 4th of May 1934, it took a great demonstration of German scientists, to silence Wirth for the time being. A demonstartion (show) it was, more than a scientific debate [...]
Cornelis Over de Linden to Dr. Ottema, 16-11-1871:
I don't have the slightest doubts that one day the truth will come float to the surface, but now that I have studied your translation, I figure that the laws described in it are very radical, and that when the theology it teaches would become that of the people again, all sorts of clergymen would have to find a new job. That is why I think they will oppose it as much as is in their power.
Dr. Ottema to L.F. Over de Linden, 24-06-1876:
I wish someone would act who is courageous enough to defend the OLB in public, without fear for the systematic intimidation.
Because all the howling is intimidation, started by Spectator magazine and systematically sustained.
There are enough proponents, but they dare not speak, out of fear of being declared fool or villain.
Source: fryskednis/letters-ottema-over-de-linden
~
Fragment of "Het Oera-Linda-Boek in Duitschland en hier" (The OLB in Germany and here), by Dr. Murk de Jong (1939), about the way Herman Wirth was silenced by Nazi-'scientists'.
Quote
Door een (gekortwiekte) vertaling had hij het voor het Duitsche volk toegankelijk gemaakt. Het sloeg in. Onderwijzers namen het mee naar school om er de jeugd uit voor te lezen, zoo goed als Wirth het op den katheder den studenten deed. Een Oera-Linda-cultus dreigde, met Wirth als profeet.
Maar ook een crisis in de Duitsche wetenschap. [...]
In koortsachtige opwinding werd alles in het werk gesteld om Wirth of het O.L.B., dat kwam vrijwel op het zelfde neer, tegen de vlakte te slaan. [...]
Er is tenslotte op den 4den Mei 1934 een groote demonstratie van Duitsche geleerden noodig geweest, om Wirth voorlopig het zwijgen op te leggen. Een demonstratie was het, meer dan een wetenschappelijk debat [...]
Maar ook een crisis in de Duitsche wetenschap. [...]
In koortsachtige opwinding werd alles in het werk gesteld om Wirth of het O.L.B., dat kwam vrijwel op het zelfde neer, tegen de vlakte te slaan. [...]
Er is tenslotte op den 4den Mei 1934 een groote demonstratie van Duitsche geleerden noodig geweest, om Wirth voorlopig het zwijgen op te leggen. Een demonstratie was het, meer dan een wetenschappelijk debat [...]
Translation: With a (shortened) translation he had made it accessible for the German people. It was a smasher. Teachers took it to school to read it to the youth, like Wirth did for his students at university. An Oera-Linda-cult impended, with Wirth as its prophet.
But also a crisis in German science. [...]
In feverish fuss all was done to crush Wirth or the OLB, that was virtually the same. [...]
Finally on the 4th of May 1934, it took a great demonstration of German scientists, to silence Wirth for the time being. A demonstartion (show) it was, more than a scientific debate [...]
###
### Posted 07 April 2013 - 10:16 AM
Abramelin, on 07 April 2013 - 04:57 AM, said:
I'll go with the idea it's a borrowing from Latin, and that Latin borrowed it from Aramaic or Hebrew:
Abramelin, on 29 March 2013 - 09:37 AM, said:
tunic (n.)
c.1600, from Middle French tunique, from Latin tunica (cf. Spanish tunica, Italian tonica, Old English tunece, Old High German tunihha), probably from a Semitic source (cf. Hebrew kuttoneth "coat," Aramaic kittuna).
c.1600, from Middle French tunique, from Latin tunica (cf. Spanish tunica, Italian tonica, Old English tunece, Old High German tunihha), probably from a Semitic source (cf. Hebrew kuttoneth "coat," Aramaic kittuna).
That "probable" etymology sucks.
Hebrew kuttoneth and Aramaic kittuna are related to cotton (Dutch: katoen, Arabic qutn)
tunic = to-neck is the most plausible explanation
Posted 07 April 2013 - 12:54 PM
Abramelin, on 07 April 2013 - 10:54 AM, said:
It is another explanation, yes, but not the most plausible one.
It is.
Yours is what you call Lego-etymology, tossing around letters.
TOHNEKKA (olb) - TONICA (Italian) =>> T-N-K
kuttoneth - kittuna - cotton - katoen - qutn =>> K-T-N
Why would the K-sound have moved to the back?
### Posted 07 April 2013 - 04:08 PM
On 25 October 2011, Poltergeist said:
Richthofen (1840)
diger (treu, sorgsam): 'ende by da lena ursumeth, dat hi ne naet dygher urwerrie, also dygher so dy mynscha selm pligit to bywarien' Jur.2,28 und 'hweerso een wyff her kynd naet habbe bywareth myt aller digerheyt' (sorgsamkeit) Jur.2,168. Isl. dygger (fidus). Vgl. te deghe (integre) bei Kilian 103.
Related to DIGER are the Dutch words "degelijk" and "terdege".
gtb.inl.nl/degelijk 1
gtb.inl.nl/degelijk 2
gtb.inl.nl/terdege
Quote
It's remarkable that one-and-the-same word (undigerhéd) was translated in different ways (four by Sandbach, three by Ottema and Jensma):
...........Ottema (1872)......Jensma (2006)......Sandbach (1872)
p.099/04...zorgeloosheid......onzorgvuldigheid...carelessness
p.152/11...onvoorzichtigheid..onvoorzichtigheid..imprudence
p.161/02...onbezonnenheid.....onoplettendheid....inconsiderateness
p.203/19...onbezonnenheid.....onoplettendheid....thoughtlessness
Does anyone know a word from another language (English, German, Scandinavian?) that is moren similar to "undigerhéd"?
...........Ottema (1872)......Jensma (2006)......Sandbach (1872)
p.099/04...zorgeloosheid......onzorgvuldigheid...carelessness
p.152/11...onvoorzichtigheid..onvoorzichtigheid..imprudence
p.161/02...onbezonnenheid.....onoplettendheid....inconsiderateness
p.203/19...onbezonnenheid.....onoplettendheid....thoughtlessness
Does anyone know a word from another language (English, German, Scandinavian?) that is moren similar to "undigerhéd"?
Quote
The word "DIGER" is used three times in the OLB, but the meaning does not become very clear.
[093/20]
ALLERA MÀNNELIK JEF TO AN MERY FRU ÀND BLÍDE
ÀND NINMAN NÉDE DIGER THAN TO ÁKANE SINA NOCHT.
[O+S p.131]
Iedereen gaf toe aan lustige vreugde en blijdschap,
en niemand had zorg dan zijn
vermaak [genoegen] na te jagen.
everybody gave himself up to pleasure and merry-making,
and no one thought of anything but diversion
or more litterally:
All people gave in to merry frolic and bliss (or joy),
and no-one had care about anything but to seek pleasure.
[143/25]
MEN FRYA.S FOLK IS DIGER ÀND FLITICH.
HJA WRDON MOD NER WIRG
THRVCHDAM HJARA DOL TO THA BESTA LÉIDE.
[O+S p.195]
Maar Fryas volk is wakker en vlijtig,
zij werden moede noch mat,
omdat hun doel ten beste geleidde.
but Frya's people [are careful and diligent]
[they] were neither tired nor exhausted
when [since] they had a good object in view.
[154/27]
THACH SAND HI A.DEL NÉI THÉRE BURCH ET TEX.LAND
TIL THJU HI DIGER BI DIGER KVD WERTHA MACHTA.
MITH ELLA HWAT TO VSA ÉWA TÁLE ÀND SEDUM HÉRETH.
[O+S p.209]
[toch] zond hij toch Adel naar de burgt te Texland,
opdat hij hoe eer hoe beter bekend worden mocht
met alles wat tot onze wetten, taal en zeden behoort.
Jensma: "door en door zorgvuldig"; very carefully
[yet] he sent Adel to the citadel of Texland
in order to make himself better acquainted
with our laws, language, and customs.
This is yet another example of how - even in Dutch - translation is not always easy.
It shows that Knul's statement, that OLB is just a word-for-word translation of a Dutch text, can not be right.
[093/20]
ALLERA MÀNNELIK JEF TO AN MERY FRU ÀND BLÍDE
ÀND NINMAN NÉDE DIGER THAN TO ÁKANE SINA NOCHT.
[O+S p.131]
Iedereen gaf toe aan lustige vreugde en blijdschap,
en niemand had zorg dan zijn
everybody gave himself up to pleasure and merry-making,
and no one thought of anything but diversion
or more litterally:
All people gave in to merry frolic and bliss (or joy),
and no-one had care about anything but to seek pleasure.
[143/25]
MEN FRYA.S FOLK IS DIGER ÀND FLITICH.
HJA WRDON MOD NER WIRG
THRVCHDAM HJARA DOL TO THA BESTA LÉIDE.
[O+S p.195]
Maar Fryas volk is wakker en vlijtig,
zij werden moede noch mat,
omdat hun doel ten beste geleidde.
but Frya's people [are careful and diligent]
[they] were neither tired nor exhausted
[154/27]
THACH SAND HI A.DEL NÉI THÉRE BURCH ET TEX.LAND
TIL THJU HI DIGER BI DIGER KVD WERTHA MACHTA.
MITH ELLA HWAT TO VSA ÉWA TÁLE ÀND SEDUM HÉRETH.
[O+S p.209]
[toch] zond hij toch Adel naar de burgt te Texland,
opdat hij hoe eer hoe beter bekend worden mocht
met alles wat tot onze wetten, taal en zeden behoort.
Jensma: "door en door zorgvuldig"; very carefully
[yet] he sent Adel to the citadel of Texland
in order to make himself better acquainted
with our laws, language, and customs.
This is yet another example of how - even in Dutch - translation is not always easy.
It shows that Knul's statement, that OLB is just a word-for-word translation of a Dutch text, can not be right.
Richthofen (1840)
diger (treu, sorgsam): 'ende by da lena ursumeth, dat hi ne naet dygher urwerrie, also dygher so dy mynscha selm pligit to bywarien' Jur.2,28 und 'hweerso een wyff her kynd naet habbe bywareth myt aller digerheyt' (sorgsamkeit) Jur.2,168. Isl. dygger (fidus). Vgl. te deghe (integre) bei Kilian 103.
Related to DIGER are the Dutch words "degelijk" and "terdege".
gtb.inl.nl/degelijk 1
gtb.inl.nl/degelijk 2
gtb.inl.nl/terdege
And "gedegen", older form: "githigan"
gtb.inl.nl/gedegen
Also the old word DEGE or DEECH, DEEG:
gtb.inl.nl/deeg
gtb.inl.nl/gedegen
Also the old word DEGE or DEECH, DEEG:
gtb.inl.nl/deeg
### Posted 09 April 2013 - 11:22 AM
Abramelin, on 08 April 2013 - 09:51 PM, said:
this isn't Scrabble we're playing here: you can't just chop a word up into convenient pieces you have a meaning for..
That is exactly why TONECKA / TUNIC is not derived from the Hebrew or Amamaic version of COTTON / KATOEN.
Neck must be an old word as it has varieties in many languages:
neck - english
nek - dutch
nacken, genick - german
nacke - swedish
nakke - danish, norwegian
nuque - french
hnecca - oldfrisian (Hettema)
nekke - frisian
### Posted 09 April 2013 - 11:36 AM
Abramelin, on 07 April 2013 - 03:32 PM, said:
So we have a little problem here: Old Frisian for 'slave' is "skalk".
I don't see any problem.
SKALK can mean knegt, slaaf, zoon, vriend (assistant or knight, slave, son, friend), according to Hettema's Oldfrisian dictionary.
Varieties of SKALK are used in OLB too, and its meaning will be closer to friend / assistant than to slave:
THI WAN.WISA FALXA MANNA THAM HJARA SELVA GODIS SKALKA JEFTHA PRESTERA NOMA LÉTA
A.DEL WAS.NE MINLIKA SKALK
THA SIND THÉR VNWARLINGA FJUWER SKALKA MORTH ÀND NAKED UTEKLÁT
THAM HJARA SEL FORI GOD.IS SKALKUM UT JAVON
Related:
THÀT.ER NÉN KVA FORMVDA NAVT RISA NE MÉI NOR SKALKHÉD DÉN NE WRDE
MEN THAT VRSKALKTON VSA WÁKENDOM
THES DÉIS VRSKALKTH.I THÉR
### Posted 09 April 2013 - 11:54 AM
Abramelin, on 09 April 2013 - 11:36 AM, said:
chopping up a word. TOHNEKKA into To Hnekka.
philo-sophy
bio-logy
demo-cracy
denim = de Nimes
etc.
Chopping a word into pieces to find the original meaning is perfectly normal.
You change the order of the sounds, that is a different thing.
Posted 09 April 2013 - 04:37 PM
Abramelin, on 09 April 2013 - 02:27 PM, said:
Anyway, as you can see from the images I posted earlier, the 'tunica' was not a garment that reached up to the neck persé, and that was especially true for women's tunicas..
Quote
And, btw, TUNICA has the same order of consonants as TOHNEKKA. Same with TONACA.
That's what I say and why this etymology makes more sense than the Hebrew one.
Quote
Btw, you do know the (older) Greek word for TUNICA, right? It's CHITON.
That is a different word (seems to be related to the word cotton as well) with a similar meaning: a piece of clothing.
If Tohnekka =>> Tunic was one of a few more-plausible (than the classic ones) etymologies, I would not be impressed, but OLB offers such an overwhelming amount of better etymologies, that they can no longer be ignored or laughed-away.
### Posted 09 April 2013 - 07:34 PM
Abramelin, on 09 April 2013 - 07:10 PM, said:
And most if not all of your posts are about dissecting words, but rarely about ancient history.
Many allright, certainly not all and besides seperate words I do whole fragments too.
Remember the Frisia maps?
Here's something else for the paper research team:
Quote
Cai Lun [...] (ca. 50 AD – 121) [...], was a Chinese eunuch. He is traditionally regarded as the inventor of paper and the papermaking process, in forms recognizable in modern times as paper (as opposed to Egyptian papyrus). Although paper existed in China before Cai Lun (since the 2nd century BC), he was responsible for the first significant improvement and standardization of paper-making by adding essential new materials into its composition.
