24 September 2013

NÉDGJA - NÉD - NE HÉD

the following was posted on the UM forum last april:


View PostAbramelin, on 04 April 2013 - 10:41 AM, said:

No.
On that site you linked to, it does not say "neuken" is related to "nêdgja" or "nêdigia".

NÉDGJA => nodigen, noden, noodzaken, dwingen (to force someone)
source: gtb.inl.nl/nodigen

Oldfrisian dictionary - Hettema (1832):
nedga, neda, nedera, nednima; naeedje, naeerje, naeednimje; schaken verkrachten (to rape)

(I think "neuken" is related to geneugte, genot, NOCHTA => pleasure, but oldschool etymology does not agree yet.)


View PostAbramelin, on 05 April 2013 - 02:16 PM, said:
This is what it also says: on.(old Norse): hnykkja

So "neuken" has an oldnorse equivalent.
That does not mean "neuken" is related to Oldfrisian NÉDGJA (nedga, neda, etc.)

Posted 06 April 2013 - 03:05 PM
View Postgestur, on 05 April 2013 - 11:01 AM, said:
NÉDGJA => nodigen, noden, noodzaken, dwingen (to force someone)
source: gtb.inl.nl/nodigen

Oldfrisian dictionary - Hettema (1832): nedga, neda, nedera, nednima

This got me thinking something that might prove significant.

NÉD in OLB  is both need (Dutch: nood; German: not) and not-have (NE-HÉD).

Let's first have a look at oldschool etymology.

etymonline/need
Quote
need (n.)
Old English nied (West Saxon), ned (Mercian) "necessity, compulsion, duty; hardship, distress; errand, business," originally "violence, force," from Proto-Germanic *nauthis (cf. Old Saxon nod, Old Norse nauðr, Old Frisian ned, Middle Dutch, Dutch nood, Old High German not, German Not, Gothic nauþs "need"), probably cognate with Old Prussian nautin "need," andperhaps with Old Church Slavonic nazda, Russian nuzda, Polish nędza "misery, distress," from PIE *nau- "death, to be exhausted" (see narwhal).

The more common Old English word for "need, necessity, want" was ðearf, but they were connected via a notion of "trouble, pain," and the two formed a compound, niedðearf "need, necessity, compulsion, thing needed." Nied also might have beeninfluenced by Old English neod "desire, longing," which often was spelled the same. Common in Old English compounds, e.g. niedfaru "compulsory journey," a euphemism for "death;" niedhæmed "rape," the second element being an Old English word meaning "sexual intercourse;" niedling "slave." Meaning "extreme poverty, destitution" is from c.1200.

etymologiebank/nood
Quote
nood zn. ‘gevaar; behoefte, gebrek’
Onl. nōt ‘gevaar; ellende, pijn; dwang’ in de samenstelling nodfyr ‘vuur ter afwending van onheil’ [eind 8e eeuw; CG II-1, 16], hiz duot mir michol nood ‘het doet mij veel pijn’ [ca. 1100; Will.], that thie uile unsculdige lîude uer tholodon so manige node ‘dat die volkomen onschuldige mensen zoveel ellende doormaakten’, ane not ‘zonder dwang’ [beide 1151-1200; Reimbibel]; mnl. síjn herte dat leet grote noet ‘zijn hart leed veel smart’, hi ulo dur die noet ‘hij vluchtte vanwege het gevaar’ [beide 1220-40; VMNW], hebbe his nod ‘als hij er behoefte aan heeft’ [1236; VMNW], noot ‘noodzaak’ [1240; Bern.].
Os. nōd (mnd. nōt); ohd. nōt (nhd. Not); ofri. nēd (nfri. need); oe. nēd, nīed (ne. need); on. nauðr (nzw. nöd); got. nauþs; alle ‘nood, gevaar, noodzaak, dwang, plicht e.d.’, < pgm. *naudi-, met grammatische wisseling uit *nauþí-.
Verwant met: Oudpruisisch nautin ‘nood’; Litouws nõvyti ‘kwellen’, Oudkerkslavisch naviti ‘vermoeien’ (Tsjechisch unavit); Oudiers núne ‘hongersnood’, Welsh newyn ‘id.’, Cornish naun ‘id.’; < pie. *nou-ti- (IEW 756). Mogelijk verder verwant met: Oudnoords nár ‘lijk’, Gotisch naus ‘id.’; Lets nâve ‘dood’, nâvêt ‘doden’; Oudrussisch navĭ ‘lijk’ (Russisch nav' ‘geest van overledene’); < pie. *neh2u-.
In de Oudgermaanse talen heeft dit woord al naast elkaar betekenissen als ‘ellende’, ‘dwang’ en ‘behoefte’. De oorspr. betekenisontwikkeling is niet helemaal duidelijk; de verwante niet-Germaanse woorden suggereren een oorspr. betekenis ‘ellende, kwelling’.
Als productief eerste lid komt nood voor in de betekenis ‘tijdelijk, als reserve’ in bijv. noodgebouw, noodreparatie, nooduitgang; de betekenis ‘behoefte’ in bijv. met een noodgang, hoge nood hebben, (BN) nood hebben aan en in de afleiding nodig.
=> "the original development of meaning is not all clear"

need - english
nood - dutch
not - german
nöd - swedish

not - english
niet - dutch
nicht - german

~
In the 41 fragments below varieties of the word NÉD are distributed as follows (# = fragment numbers):

NÉD = need (noun)
#1,2,3,7,8,9,10

NÉDICH = needy (adj.)
#4,15,36

NÉDLIK = needlike (adj.)
#27,30,37

in wordcombinations

NÉDTHREFTUM = necessaries
#9

NÉD.BAN = need-ban (emergency-decree)
#13

NÉD.FJURA = need-fires (emergency-fires)
#26

NÉD.HUSA = need-houses (emergency-houses)
#29

HONGERNÉDE = hunger-need (famine)
#40

as verb: NE-HA (not-have)

NÉDON NÉN = (n-)had no
#5,19,31

NÉDE NÉN/NA/NAVT/NINMER/NARNE/NAWET = (n-)had no/not/never/nowhere/nothing
#6,11,12,14(3x),16,17,18,22,23,24,25,32,33,34,35(2x),39,41

NÉDEN NÉN = (n-)had not
#20

NÉDIM NÉNE = (n-)had him no
#28

other verbs

NÉDGJA = to rape, force (Dutch: nodigen, dwingen)
#21

UTNÉDA = invite (Dutch: uitnodigen)
#38

~
Sometimes, NÉDE NÉN can both be translated as "(n-)had no", asa well as "needed no"; see fragments #5,6,33 (we had no wars => we needed no wars /// we had no slaves => we needed no slaves)
~

FRAGMENTS

1 [011/18]
SAHWERSA THJU NÉD ÀRG SY
[O-S p.19]
Zoo wanneer de nood erg is
When in dire distress [the need is bad]

2 [014/17]
KVMTH NÉD ÀND TVANG VS SETMA TO JÉVANE
[O-S p.23]
Komt nood en dwang ons inzettingen te geven
If by force or necessity... [:if need and force come...]

3 [014/29]
SVNDER NÉD ÀND TVANG
[O-S p.25]
zonder nood en dwang
except from absolute necessity [:without need and force]

4 [018/26]
IS.T NÉDICH ÉN ÀND TWINTICH WYKA LONG
[O-S p.29]
zoo het noodig is, eenentwintig weken lang
if necessary [:needy], for twenty-one weeks

5 [021/18]
THÉRVMBE NÉDON WI ÁK NÉN ORLOCH
[O-S p.33]
Daarom hadden [:noden] wij ook geen oorlog
and [therefore] we had no [also needed no] wars

6 [039/14]
HJA SPÉRDON THAT WI NÉN SLAVONA NÉDE
[O-S p.57]
zij bespeurden dat wij geene slaven hadden [:noden]
they discovered that we had [:needed] no slaves

7 [044/07]
NÉD WAS KVMEN AN SIN STÉD
[O-S p.65]
nood was in zijne plaats gekomen
famine came [need had come] in its place

8 [044/18]
HO NÉD THÉR SIN SÉTEL VPSTÀLTH HÉDE
[O-S p.65]
hoe de nood daar zijn zetel had opgesteld
what misery was there [how need had placed his seat there]

9 [044/20]
EN WÉIN FOL NÉDTHREFTUM THÉR HI NÉD MITH FON THÉRE HÉRD OF DRIWE
[O-S p.65]
een wagen vol nooddruftigheden, waarmede hij den nood van den haard verdreef
a waggon-load of necessaries to relieve their distress

10 [054/11]
AL HWAT WI DÉN HÀVE IS UT NÉD DÉN
[O-S p.77]
al wat wij gedaan hebben, is uit nood gedaan
all that we have done was done from necessity [:need]

11 [059/25]
SA MÀN HJA NINMER NÉDE SJAN
[O-S p.83]
gelijk men ze nimmer gezien had
such as [one] had never been seen before

12 [062/25]
MIN.ERVA NÉDE THÉR NÉN WIT FON
[O-S p.89]
Minerva had daar geen weet van
Min-erva did not mind [:have wit of] that

13 [066/21]
ÀND LÉT EN MÉNA NÉD.BAN UTKÈTHA
[O-S p.93]
en liet een algemeene noodban uitroepen
to call a general levy [:need-...?]

14 [068/07]
THÀT KÉM ÉNIS DÉLIS.
THAT HJU NÉN MAR BURGA NÉDE.
TWÍAS THAT HJU THÉR NÉN BURCH.FÁNNA NÉDE
ÀND THRÍAS THRVCHDAM HJU NÉN EFTE FODDIK NAVT NÉDE.

[O-S p.95]
dat kwam eensdeels,
omdat zij geen burgten meer hadden,
anderdeels omdat zij daar geene burgtmaagden hadden
en in de derde plaats omdat zij geene echte lamp hadden.
partly
because they no longer had any citadel[-s];
secondly, because they had there no Burgtmaagden;
and thirdly, because they had no real lamps.


15 [069/14]
SKIL BY SKIN NÉN FRÉSE TOFARA FORSTUM NACH PRESTERUM NÉDICH WÉSA
[O-S p.97]
zal misschien geene vrees voor vorsten of priesters noodig wezen
we need not perhaps have any fear of princes or priests [:perhaps no fear of princes or priests shall be needy]

16 [075/13]
AS WI NÉN HÉDON ÀND TO FARA NIMMER NÉDE SJAN
[O-S p.105]
als wij er geen hadden, en te voren nimmer hadden gezien
than any that we possessed [:as we had not] or had ever seen [:and had never seen before]

17 [080/03]
THA DÉNEMARKAR NÉDE NARNE ÁRA NEI
[O-S p.111]
de Denemarkers hadden nergens ooren naar
the Denmarkers paid no attention [:had no ears] to her

18 [080/25]
THA GRÉVA NÉDON SELVA NAWET
[O-S p.111]
de graven hadden zelve niets
the counts had nothing to give [themselves]

19 [081/13]
THAT HJA NÉN GODA WÉPNE NAVT NÉDON
[O-S p.113]
dat zij geene goede wapenen hadden
As they had no good weapons

20 [082/16]
THRVCHDAM THA WÉRE NAVT NÉN GODE WACHT HALDEN NÉDEN
[O-S p.115]
omdat de krijgslieden geene goede wacht gehouden hadden
As the guard had not kept a good watch

21 [082/22]
ÁND WILDE HJA NÉDGJA
[O-S p.115]
en wilde haar geweld aandoen [:nodigen, verkrachten]
and would have done her violence [and wanted to rape her]

22 [083/06]
SÁ HÁCH AS HJU TOFARA NA NÉDE KENTH
[O-S p.115]
zoo hoog als zij nooit te voren gekend had
higher than she had ever done before [as high as she had not known before]

23 [087/26]
BIRA LÉVA NÉDE THJU MODER HJRA FOLGSTERE NAVT NOMTH
[O-S p.123]
Bij haar leven had de Moeder hare opvolgster niet genoemd
[by her life] The mother had not named her successor

24 [088/27]
AS MÀ TO FORA NA NÉDE SJAN
[O-S p.123]
als men er nooit te voren gezien had
than had ever been seen there before [as one had not seen before]

25 [093/22]
NINMAN NÉDE DIGER THAN TO ÁKANE SINA NOCHT
[O-S p.131]
niemand had zorg dan zijn vermaak na te jagen
no one thought of anything but diversion [no one had priority but to get his pleasure]

26 [093/29]
THA STRANDWÁKAR WÉRON FON HJARA NÉD.FJURA HLÁPEN
[O-S p.131]
De strandwakers waren van hunne noodvuren weggeloopen
The coastguard deserted their beacons [had walked from their needfires]

27 [103/04]
ALLER.WÉIKES WÉR ET NÉDLIK SY
[O-S p.143]
allerwege, waar het noodig [noodlijk] is
everywhere where it is necessary [needlike]

28 [103/32]
WR.ALDA NÉDIM NÉNE HELPE LÉNAD
[O-S p.143]
Wralda had hem geene hulp verleend
Wr-alda had given him no help

29 [107/23]
THRIJA TWILIF NÉD.HUSA
[O-S p.149]
drie maal twaalf noodhuizen
thirty-six refuge-houses [:three x twelve needhouses]

30 [108/23]
ALLERLÉJA THINGA THÉR HJAM NÉDLIK SEND
[O-S p.149]
allerhande dingen die haar noodig zijn
all that may be necessary [:needlike] for them

31 [117/20]
IN 282 JÉR NÉDON WI NÉN ÉRE.MODER NAVT HAT
[O-S p.161]
In 282 jaren hadden wij geene Eeremoeder gehad
For 282 years we had not had an Eeremoeder

32 [128/07]
FRISO NÉDE NACH NÉN FRÉTHE
[O-S p.175]
Friso had nog geen vrede
Friso was not yet satisfied [had no peace yet]

33 [128/27]
THRVCHDAN WI NÉNE SLÁVONA NAVT NÉDE
[O-S p.175]
omdat wij geene slaven hadden [:noden]
because we had [:needed] no slaves

34 [136/10]
HWÉRVPPA NIMMAN RÉKNED NÉDE
[O-S p.185]
waar niemand op gerekend had
which nobody had reckoned upon

35 [145/15]
THACH NÉDE HJU NÉN LJUCHT NER KLÁRHÉD IN THJUSE SÉKE NE FVNDEN. THÉRVMBE NÉDE HJU NÉNE MOD HÁN
[O-S p.197]
toch had zij geen licht noch helderheid in deze zaak gevonden; daarom had zij geen moed gehad
yet she had been unable to see any light or way out of this affair [:yet she had not found any light nor clarity in this affair]; therefore she had not had the courage

36 [145/29]
AS.ER NÉDICH HÉDE
[O-S p.199]
als hij noodig had
as he required [:had needy]

37 [149/25]
ALSA FAR WÉR.SKÉPA HOF ÀND NÉDLIK SÍ
[O-S p.203]
gelijk het voor krijgsschepen noodig en nuttig [behoeftig en benodigd] is
as is necessary and useful [:needlike] for men-of-war [war- or defence-ships]

38 [149/29]
HI WILDE AL VSA SÉ.KÀMPAR UTNÉDA
[O-S p.203]
hij wilde al onze zeekampers uitnoodigen
he wanted to engage [:invite] all our sea rovers

39 [156/31]
THACH HJA NÉDE NAVT NE HÉRED
[O-S p.211]
doch zij hadden niet geluisterd [:gehoord]
but they did not listen [:had not heared]

40 [165/25]
THISA HONGERNÉDE
[O-S p.223]
Deze hongersnood
The famines [:this hungerneed]

41 [198/15]
THAT.ER NÉNE MIDLE NAVT NÉDE
[O-S p.239]
dat hij geene middelen bezat [:had]
that they had no means

Posted 07 April 2013 - 10:07 AM
View Postgestur, on 06 April 2013 - 03:05 PM, said:
as verb: NE-HA (not-have)

NÉDON NÉN = (n-)had no
#5,19,31

NÉDE NÉN/NA/NAVT/NINMER/NARNE/NAWET = (n-)had no/not/never/nowhere/nothing
#6,11,12,14(3x),16,17,18,22,23,24,25,32,33,34,35(2x),39,41

NÉDEN NÉN = (n-)had not
#20

NÉDIM NÉNE = (n-)had him no
#28

Those were all past tense.
To be complete, here are the other fragments with present:NETH = NE-HETH (not-has)

[051/28]
THÀT FOLK NETH NAVT ÉNIS EN NOME
[O-S p.73]
Het volk heeft niet eens een naam
This people have not even a name

[054/16]
HJA NETH VS NAVT NE MELD
[O-S p.77]
zij heeft zich om ons niet bekommerd
she took no [:has not taken] notice of us

[063/10]
THENE HONA NETH FAN NIMMAN FRJUNDSKIP
[O-S p.89]
de haan heeft voor [van] niemand vriendschap
[the c0ck has friendship from noman] {was left out by Sandbach}

[112/17]
THÀT NIMMAN NÉN SPRÉK VPPA SIN SKILD NETH
[O-S p.153]
dat niemand eene spreuk op zijn schild heeft
that no one has a motto ['speak'] on his shield

[145/01]
GOSA NETH VS NÉNE FOLGSTERE NOMETH
[O-S p.197]
Gosa heeft ons geene opvolgster benoemd
Gosa has given us no [:has not named for us a] successors

[207/06]
THAT NETH NÉNE GODE FRÜCHDA BÁRED
[O-S p.249]
dat heeft geene goede vruchten gebaard [gedragen]
it produced no real good to them
[:that has not born good fruits]


~
Other negative verbs are:

NILLA = NE-WILLA (not-will, not-want, not-wish)
NÉTA = NE-WÉTA (not-know)

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