FRYDOM and FRYHED in OLB

[002/03] Adelas Read
FRYA HETH SÉIT
WI NE SKOLDON NÉN VNFRYA LJVD BY VS TOLÉTA.
THA HWAT HAVON HJA DÉN.
HJA HAVON VSA FJAND NÉI FOLGED
HWAND AN STÉD FON HJARA FENSENUM TO DÉIANDE
JEFTHA FRY TO LÉTANE.
HAVON HJA FRYAS RÉD MINACHT
AND SE TO HJARA SLAFONUM MAKED.
THRVCHDAM HJA SOK DÉDON
MACHT FRYA NAVT LONGER WAKA OVIR HJAM.
HJA HAVON YNES OTHER.IS FRYDOM BINIMEN
AND THAT IS ÉRSÉKE THAT HJA HJARA AJN VRLÉREN HAWE.

[011/15]Fryas Tex
THÉRA ALLÉNA MÉI IK AS FRY KANNA
THÉR NÉN SLAF IS FON ÉN OTHER
NI FON SINE TOCHTA.

[012/19]
6.
SAHWERSA THÉR AMMAN AMONG JO FVNDEN WARTH
THÉR SIN AJN FRYDOM VRSELLATH.
THAM N.IS NAVT FON JVW FOLK.
HI IS EN HORNING MITH BASTERD BLOD.
IK RÉDE JO THAT J HIM AND SIN MAM TO THAT LAND UT.DRIVA

SÉGZ THAT TO JVWA BARN.
THES MORNES. THES MIDDÉIS AND THES ÉWENDES
TILTHJU HJA THÉROF DRAME THES NACHTIS.

7.
ALLERA MANNALIK THÉR EN OTHER
FON SINE FRYDOM BIRAW
AL WÉRE THENE ORE HIM SKELDECH
MOT IK ANDA BARN.TAM ÉNER SLAFINE FARA LÉTA.
THACH IK RÉDE JO
VMBE SIN LIK AND THAT SINERA MAM
VPP.ÉNE KALE STÉD TO VRBARNANDE.
AFTERNÉI HJARA ASKE FIFTICH FIT ANDA GRVND TO DALVANE
TILHJU THÉR NÉNEN GARS.HALM VP WAXA NI MÉI.
HWAND ALDULKERA GARS SKOLDE JVW DJAROSTA KVIK DÉJA.

[032/..] Minno
WARTH WÉTER VRSTOREN
SA WARTH.ET VN.ÉWA. VNRJUCHT.
MEN.ET NIGTH ÉVG
VMBE WITHER ÉWA TO WERTHANDE.
THAT LÉITH AN SIN FONSELV.HÉD.

ALSA THA NIGUNG TO RJUCHT AND FRYDOM
IN FRYA.S BERN LEITH.

[033/21]
THA NY.HEL.LÉNJA.
THAM FON HJRA AJN NOME MIN.ERVA HÉTE.
GOD SÉTEN WAS
AND THA KRÉKALANDER HJA TOMET EVEN HARDE MINADE AS VS AJN FOLK.
THA KÉMON THÉR SVME FORSTA AND PRESTERA VPPERA BURCH
AND FRÉJON MIN.ERVA HWÉR OF HJRA ERVA LÉJON.
HEL.LÉNJA ANDERE

MINA ERVA DRÉG IK OM IN MINA BOSM.
HWAT IK URVEN HAV IS LJAFDE VR WISDOM. RJUCHT AND FRYDOM.
HAV IK THAM VRLÉREN
ALSA BEN.IK É.LIK ANTHA MINNISTE JWAR SLAVONENA.
NW JÉV IK RÉD VM NAWET.
MEN THAN SKOLD.IK VRKAPJA THAM.

[039/..]
THACH THA WI EN STUT SÉTEN HÉDE
AND HJA SPÉRDON
THAT WI NÉN SLAVONA NÉDE.
THA WÉRON HJA THÉR WR VRSTALATH.
MEN THA.K RA NW TALTH HÉDE
THAT WI ÉWA HÉDON
É.LIK TO BIRJUCHTANDE VR ALLA
THA WILDET FOLK AK FON SOKKA HA.
TACH SKÉRS HÉDON HJA THAM
JEFTA THAT ÉLLE LAND KÉM ANDA TIS.
THA FORSTA AND PRESTERA KÉMON BARJA
THAT WI HJARA TJVTH OVER HÉRICH MAKAD HÉDE
AND THAT FOLK KÉM TO VS VMBE HUL AND SKUL.
THACH THA THA FORSTA SAGON
THAT HJA HJARA RIK VRLJASA SKOLDA
THA JÉVON HJA THAT FOLK FRYDOM
AND KÉMON TO MY VMBEN É.SEGZA.BOK.
THACH THAT FOLK NAS NÉN FRYDOM WENTH
AND THA HÉRA BILÉVON WELDA
NÉI THAT IR GOD THOCHTE.

[042/03] Setma & Domar
SAHWERSA AMMAN ENG GOD HETH
AND EN OTHER LIKTH THAT THERMÉTE
THAT I HIM THÉRAN VRFATE
SA MOTI THAT THRJA VRIELDA.
STÉLTH I JETA RÉIS
THAN MOT HI NÉI THA TIN.LANUM.
WIL THENE BISTÉLNE HIM FRY JÉVA
SA MÉI R THAT DVA.
THA BÉRTH ET WITHER
SA NE MÉI NIMMAN HIM FRYDOM JÉVA.

[071/..] Minerva and Jon
AS HJU THÉR AN TOSTEMAD HÉDE
FRÉJATH THA LJUDA
JEF THA FRYA.S SÉDA TO ATHENJA AND THA ORA KRÉKALANDA BLOJA SKOLDE.

THJU MODER ANDERE.

JEF THA FÉRE KRÉKALANDA TO THA ERVA FRYA.S HÉRA.
ALSA SKILUN HJA THÉR BLOJA.
NE HÉRATH HJA NAVT THÉR TO.
ALSA SKIL THÉR LANG OVER KAMPAD WRDA MOTA.
HWAND THENE KRODER SKIL JETA FIF.THUSAND.JÉR
MITH SIN JOL OMME.HLAPA
BIFARA THAT FINDA.S.FOLK RIP TOFARA FRYDOM SY.

[077/..] Ulysus
ASER FALLEN WAS
GVNGON SINA NÉIMANNINGA ALRING AN VSA ÉWA TORENA
AND BI GRADUM SA FÉLO MISLIKANDA KÉRA TO MAKJANDE
THAT ER TO LONGE LESTA
FON ÉLIK SA AND FON FRYDOM HA
NAVT OWERS AS THA SKIN AND THA NOME VRBILÉF.

[079/..] Denemarka
GRAT 100 JÉR LÉDEN BIJONDON THA DÉNE MARKAR TO WANDELJA MITH HJAM.
HJA JÉVON HJAM ISERE WÉPNE AND RÉDSKIP
THÉR FORI WANDELDON HJA GOLDEN SIRHÉDON BIJUNKA KAPER AND ISER JRTHA.
THJU MODER SAND BODON AND RÉD ER HJA SKOLDE THJU WANDEL FARA LÉTA.
THÉR WÉRE FRÉSE SÉIDE HJU FORI HJARA SÉDUM AND BITHAM HJA HJARA SÉDE VRLÉREN
THAN SKOLDE HJA AK HJARA FRYDON VRLJASA.
MEN THA DÉNEMARKAR NÉDE NARNE ARA NEI.
HJA NILDE NAVT BIGRIPPA THAT HJARA SÉDE VRBRUDE KOSTE
THÉRVMBE NE MELDON HJA HJA NAVT.

[081/..]
THA SKÉNLANDER THAM NÉY WÉRON NÉI THAT LAND HJARAR ÉTHLA
KÉMON NÉI THA DÉNE MARKUM.
VPPEN HELLE NACHT KÉMON HJA ALLA.
NW SÉIDON HJA THAT HJA RJUCHT HÉDE VPPET LAND HJARAR ÉTHLON
AND THAHWIL THAT MAN THÉRVR KAMPADE
KÉMON THA FINNA IN THA LÉTOGA THORPA
AND RUNADON MITH THA BERN EWÉI.
THÉRTRVCH AND THAT HJA NÉN GODA WÉPNE NAVT NÉDON
DÉD HJAM THA KASA VRLJASA
AND THÉRMÉI HJARI FRYDOM
HWAND THENE MAGI WRDE BAS
~
THAT KÉM THAT HJA FRYA.S TEX NAVT NE LÉSDE
AND HJRA RÉDJÉVINGA WARLASD HÉDE.

[083/..] Franas Death
MIN AGUN WRDE THJUSTRED.
THA THAT ORE LJUCHT DÉGTH VP IN MINARA SÉLE.
~
JES IK SJA.T.
~
HARK JRTHA AND WÉS BLIDE MITH MY.
~
VNDERA TIDUM THAT ALDLAND SVNKEN IS.
STAND THJU FORMA SPÉKE FON THET JOL AN TOP.
THÉRNÉI IS HJU DEL GVNGON
AND VSA FRYDOM MITH THAM.
AS ER TWA SPÉKE JEFTHA 2000 JÉR DEL TRULED HET.
SA SKILUN THA SVNA VPSTONDA
THER THA FORSTA AND PRESTERA
THRVCH HORDOM BIT FOLK TÉLED HAVE.
AND TOJENST HJARA TATA TJUGHA.
THI ALLE SKILUM THRVCH MORT SWIKA.
~
MEN HWAT HJA KÉTH HAVE SKIL FORTH BILIWA
AND FRUCHDBER WERTHA
IN.A BOSMA THÉRA KLOKE MANNISKA.
ALSA LIK GODE SÉDUM
THÉR DEL LÉID WRDE IN THINRA SKAT.
~
JETA THUSEND JÉR SKIL THJU SPÉKE THEN DEL NIGA
AND AL MARA SIGA ANDA THJUSTERNESSE AND IN BLOD .
OVIR THI UTSTIRTH THRVCH THA LAGA
THÉR FORSTA AND PRESTERA.
THÉRNÉI SKIL THET MORNERAD WITHER ANFANGA TO GLORA.
THIT SJANDE SKILUN THA FALSKA FORSTA AND PRESTER
ALSAMEN WITH FRYDOM KAMPA AND WOXELJA.
MEN FRYDOM. LJAFDE AND ÉNDRACHT
SKILET FOLK IN HJARA WACH NÉMA
AND MITH THET JOL RISA UTA WLA POL.
THAT LJUCHT THAT EROST ALLÉNA GLORADE
SKIL THAN FON LÉJAR LAJA TO.N LOGHA WERTHA.
THAT BLOD THÉRA ARGUM SKIL OVIR THIN LIF STRAMA
MEN THV NE MUGTH ET NAVT TO THI NÉMA.
~
TO THA LESTA SKIL THAT FENINIGE KWIK THÉR VP ASA
AND THÉROF STERVA.
~
ALLE WLA SKÉDNESE THAM FORSUNNEN SEND
VMBE THA FORSTA AND PRESTERA TO BOGA
SKILUN AN LOGHA OFRED WERTHA.
FORTH SKILUN AL THINRA BERN MITH FRÉTHO LÉVA.

[111/..] Apollanjas Fart
THJU BURCH.FAM FON FOR.ANA SÉIDE MY.
THAT THA BURCH.HÉRA DÉISTIK TO RA GUNGON.
VMBRA TO LÉRANDE.
HWAT AFTE FRYDOM SI.
AND HO THA MANNISKA AN THÉRE MINNE AGON TO LÉVANE
VMBE SÉJEN TO WINNANDE FON WR.ALDA.S.GAST.

[125/..] Antigonus
AMONG THA FÉLO FORSTA HÉDE NÉARCHUS EN FRJUND
MITH NOME ANTIGONUS.
THISSE STRÉDON BÉDE VMB EN DOL.
SA HJA SÉIDON AS FOLLISTAR TOFARA.T KÉNINGLIKE SLACHTE
AND FORTH VMBE ALLE KRÉKA.LANDA
HJARA ALDE FRYDOM WITHER TO JÉVANE.
ANTIGONUS HÉDE AMONG FÉLO OTHERUM ÉNNEN SVN.
THI HÉTE DEMÉTRIUS.
AFTER TONOMAD THENE STÉDA WINNER.

[134/25]
IN ÉRA TIDA NISTON THA SLAVONA FOLKAR NAWET FON FRYHÉD.
LIK OXA WRDON HJA VNDER ET JUK BROCHT.
IN JRTHA.S WAND WRDON HJA JAGATH
VMBE MÉT.AL TO DELVANE
AND UT.A HERDE BERGUM MOSTON HJA HUSA HAWA
TO FORST AND PRESTERUM.S HÉM.
BI AL HWAT HJA DÉDON.
THÉR NAS NAWET TOFARA HJARA SELVA
MEN ELLA MOSTE THJANJA
VMBE THA FORSTA AND PRESTERA JETA RIKER AND WELDIGER TO MAKJANE
HJARA SELVA TO SADENE.
VNDER THESSE ARBÉD WRDON HJA GRÉV AND STRAM ÉR HJA JÉRICH WÉRON
AND STURVON SVNDER NOCHTA
AFSKÉN JRTHA THAM OVERFLODLIK FVL JÉFATH
TO BATA AL HJARA BERN.
MEN VSA BRITNA KÉMON
AND VSA BANNALINGA THRVCH THA TWISK.LANDA VR IN HJARA MARKA. FARA.
AND VSA STJURAR KÉMON IN HJARA HAVNA.
FON HJAM HÉRADON HJA KALTA
VR É.LIKA FRYDOM AND RJUCHT AND OVERA É.WA
HWÉR BUTA NIMMAN OMME NE MÉI.
ALTHAM WRDE VPSUGON THRVCH THA DROVA MANNISKA
LIK DAWA THRVCH THA DORRA FJELDA.

[141/27] Frana's wil
ANTHA NOME WR.ALDA.S.
FON FRYA AND THÉRE FRYHÉD
GRÉTE IK JO. AND BIDDE JO.

[142/..] Gosa
ARGE TID IS FORBI FAREN.
MEN THÉR KVMT EN OTHERE.
JRTHA HETH HJA NAVT NE BARAD
AND WR.ALDA HETH HJA NAVT NE SKÉPEN.
HJU KVMT UT ET ASTA.
UTA BOSMA THÉRA PRESTERA WÉI.
SA FÉLO LÉD SKIL HJU BRODA.
THAT JRTHA.T BLOD ALGADVR NAVT DRINKA NE KAN.
FON HJRA VRSLÉJANA BERNUM.
THJUSTRENESSE SKIL HJU IN.OVERNE GAST THÉRA MANNISKA SPRÉDA
LIK TONGAR.IS WOLKA OVIRET SVNNE LJUCHT.
ALOM AND ALLERWÉIKES
SKIL LEST AND DROCHTEN BIDRIF WITH FRYHÉD KAMPA AND RJUCHT.
RJUCHT AND FRYHÉD SKILUN SWIKA
AND WI MITH THAM.
MEN THESSE WINST SKIL HJARA VRLIAS WROCHTA.
FON THRJU WORDA SKILUN VSA AFTERKVMANDE
AN HJARA LJUDA AND SLAVONA THA BITHJUTNESSE LÉRA.
HJA SEND.
MÉNA LJAVDA . FRYHÉD AND RJUCHT.
~
THAT FORMA SKILUN HJA GLORA.
AFTERNÉI WITH THJUSTRENESSE KAMPA
ALONT ET HEL AND KLAR IN JAHWLIKES HIRT AND HOLLE WARTH.
THAN SKIL TVANG FON JRTHA FAGAD WERTHA.
LIK TONGAR.S WOLKA THRVCH STORNE.WIND.
AND ALLE DROCHTEN BIDRIV
NE SKIL THÉR AJEN NAWET NAVT NE FORMUGA.

[151/..] Friso
THA BURGFAMNA AND THA ALDA FAMNA
THÉR JETA FON HJAR ÉRE GRATHÉD WISTE.
NIGADON NAVT VR NÉI FRISO.S BIDRIV.
THÉRVMBE NE KÉTHON HJA NÉN GOD FON HIM.
MEN FRISO SNODER AS HJA.
LÉT RA SNAKA.
MEN THA JONGA FAMNA SPOND.ER MITH GOLDNE FINGRUM AN SINA SÉK.
HJA SÉIDON ALOMME WI NAVATH LONGER NÉN MODER MAR.
MEN THAT KVMTH DANA THAT WI JÉROCH SEND.
JVD PAST VS.NE KANING
TILTHJU WI VSA LANDA WITHER WINNA
THÉR THA MODERA VRLÉREN HAVE
THRVCH HJARA VNDIGERHÉD.
~
FORTH KÉTHON HJA.

ALREK FRYA.S BERN IS FRIDOM JÉVEN.
SIN STEM HÉRA TO LÉTANE
BIFARA THÉR BISLOTEN WARTH
BI T KJASA ÉNRE FORSTE.
MEN AST ALSA WID KVMA MACHTE
THAT J JO WITHER.NE KANING KJASA.
SA WIL IK AK MIN MÉNE SEGE.
NÉI AL HWAT IK SKOJA MÉI.
SA IS FRISO THÉRTO THRVCH WR.ALDA KÉREN.
HWAND HI HETH.IM WONDERLIK HIR HINNE WÉJAD.
FRISO WÉT THA HRENKA THÉRA GOLUM
HWAMHIS TALE HI SPRÉKTH.
HI KAN THUS AJEN HJARA LESTUM WAKA.
THAN IS THÉR JETA AWET TO SKOJANDE.
HOK GRÉVA SKOLDE MAN TO KANING KJASA
SVNDER THAT THA ORA THÉR NIDICH VR WÉRON.
~
ALDULKERA TALUM WARTH THRVCH THA JONGA FAMNA KETHEN.
MEN THA ALDA FAMNA
AFSKÉN FÉ AN TAL.
TAPADON HJARA RÉDNE UTEN OTHERA BARG.
HJA KÉTHON ALLERWÉIKES
AND TO ALRA MANNALIK.

FRISO

KÉTHON HJA.

DVATH SA THA SPINNA DVAN.
THES NACHTIS SPONTH.I NETTA NÉI ALLE SIDUM
AND THES DÉIS VRSKALKTH.I THÉR
SINA VN.AFTER.TOCHTLIKA FRJUNDA IN.

[160/..] Gosa
NV STEM.LÉTH NER GELAT HJARA BOSA TOCHTA NAVT LONGER MAR VRRÉDON.
NV IS DUGED FON UT HJARA MIDDEN WÉKEN.
WISDOM IS FOLGTH
AND FRIDOM IS MITH GVNGEN.
ÉNDRACHT IS SOK RAKTH
AND TWISPALT HETH SIN STÉD IN NOMMEN.
LJAFDE IS FLJUCHT
AND HORDON SIT MITH NID AN TÉFEL.
AND THÉR ÉR RIUCHTFÉRDICHHÉD WELDE.
WELTH NV THAT SWÉRD.
~
ALLE SEND SLAVONA WRDEN
THA LJUD FON HJARA HÉRA
FON NID. BOSA LUSTA AND FON BIGIRLIKHÉD.

'Shamanist priests' in OLB?

A discussion with Alewyn Raubenheimer ('Transvaler') on 'Historum'-forum.

Posted June 26th #153

Quote originally Posted by Transvaler (Alewyn):

I may just mention here that this Old Persian religion, Zoroastrianism, is a monotheistic religion and so is the religion of the Oera Linda Book. This is in contrast to the polytheistic Hinduism, Buddhism and other Shamanistic religions in the region. Buddhism is not polytheistic.

Hinduism and Buddhism are not Shamanistic religions.

In fact, the definition of 'shamanism' is not clear, so what is yours?

Quote (wiki):

The exact definition and use of the term "shamanism" has been highly debated by scholars, with no clear consensus on the issue.

Quote, originally Posted by Transvaler:

"The Magyarar claims that they can exorcise and recall evil spirits. The people are always in dreadful fear and there is never any joy to be seen on their faces” (Here we have a typical description of Shamanism)

Typical for 'shamanism'? Then was Jesus a 'shaman' too?

Wiki: Miracles_of_Jesus. Quote:

John 21:25 states that "Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, ...even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written." These miracles may be categorized into four groups: cures, exorcisms, resurrection of the dead and control over nature.

Wiki: Exorcism. Quote:

In Catholic Christianity, exorcisms are performed in the name of Jesus Christ.

Here is what the OLB says about the 'religion' of the MAGÍ and MÁGJARA:

OLB p.[050/31]-[052/22]: from the Waraburch at Aldegamude, about the arrival of the Magí (ca. 2100 BC)

They were not wild people, like most of Finda's race;
but, like the Egyptians, they have priests like them
and now that they have churches they also have statues.

OLB p.[055/16]-[056/17]: from the Waraburch at Aldegamude, about the deification of Wodin (ca. 2000 BC)

he dared to disavow and ridicule the spirits of Frya and Wr-alda,
while he bent his free head before the false and deceitful [idol-like] images.
His reign lasted seven years, and then he disappeared.
The Magy said that he was taken up by their gods and still reigned over us

In my perception, shamans are more like tribal medicinemen. They don't have churches, don't worship images or statues, don't let people bow for them or pay them tributes.

I agree with this definition from the Wiki-Shamanism site:

Shamanism is a term used in a variety of anthropological, historical and popular contexts to refer to certain magico-religious practices that involve a practitioner reaching altered states of consciousness in order to encounter and interact with the spirit world. A shaman is a person regarded as having access to, and influence in, the world of benevolent and malevolent spirits, who typically enters a trance state during a ritual, and practices divination and healing.

What the OLB-Fryans hated most were priesthoods (PRESTERA) that made people into slaves by creating fear (like the Old-Testament does), deified mortal hero's (like Christianity did with Jesus), priests who collected much wealth by having superstituous people make offerings to the fancy statues they had made.

See this post: Criticism of Religions in OLB on my blog for details.

======

Post #157

Quote originally Posted by Transvaler:

"The traditional religion of the indigenous Altaians is called 'Shamanism'. This is a set of beliefs and practices whereby practioners communicate with the supernatural. A shamanist priest is known as a shaman who acts as an intermediary between the human and spirit worlds. They are supposedly capable of entering supernatural realms to provide answers for humans and to treat illnesses. Shamanism dates back to the Neolithic period and perhaps even as far back as the Paleolithic. The religion was practiced throughout the Iron Age by the various Teutonic tribes and the Fino-Baltic peoples.”

I suppose that the source for the first sentence of your quote is Wiki (Altai_Republic):
"The traditional religion of the native Altaians is shamanism."

'Shamanism' is not a 'religion' like Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, the Classic Greek and Roman temple orders etc., because it does not have specific stories, deities, heroes or prophets as a foundation. Its 'foundation' is simply the natural and spirit world in general.

Let us use the following definitions:

"Shamanism is a term used in a variety of anthropological, historical and popular contexts to refer to certain magico-religious practices that involve a practitioner reaching altered states of consciousness in order to encounter and interact with the spirit world. A shaman is a person regarded as having access to, and influence in, the world of benevolent and malevolent spirits, who typically enters a trance state during a ritual, and practices divination and healing." Wiki (Shamanism )

"A priest is a person authorized to perform the sacred rituals of a religion, especially as a mediatory agent between humans and deity(s). They also have the authority or power to administer religious rites; in particular, rites of sacrifice to, and propitiation of, a deity or deities. Their office or position is the priesthood, a term which also may apply to such persons collectively. Priests and priestesses have existed since the earliest of times and in the simplest societies. They exist in all or some branches of Judaism, Christianity, Shintoism, Hinduism and many other religions. They are generally regarded as having positive contact with the deity or deities of the religion to which they subscribe, often interpreting the meaning of events and performing the rituals of the religion. Priests are leaders to whom other believers will often turn for advice on spiritual matters." Wiki (Priest)

A 'shamanist priest' is simply a 'shaman' or 'medicine man'. To add the term 'priest' suggests they belong to a priesthood (like Judaism etc.), which is misleading. Many native tribal cultures are known to have had 'medicine men' or 'shamans': the native Americans and Africans, Papuas, etc.
So it is not something specific for the native traditional Altaians.

You conclude paragraph "The magyarar and Finnar" of chapter 3 "Legacy of the Outcasts" of your book with:

"The Oera Linda Book’s description of the Magyarar’s religion is an exact match of that of Shamanism."

I disagree to that, and will show you why.
From the Sandbach translation that you used:

"They were not wild people, like many of Finda’s race but, they are like the Egiptalandar;
they have priests like them and in their churches they also have statues."

=> Shamans do not have churches and statues.
What do we know of the religious traditions of Egypt?
I don't think that was anything tribal, as they had pharaos; power and wealth were concentrated, just like in the 'priesthoods' of the later 'religions'.

“The priests are the only masters; they call themselves Magyarar, and their headman is known as Magy.
He is high priest and king in one. The rest of the people are of no account, and under their rule."

=> Tribal shamans do not act like kings. The main difference between tribal cultures and the modern ones that have evolved out of priesthoods, is that in tribal cultures wealth and power is not concentrated and limitied to a few families.

"These people do not even have a name but we call them “Finna” because although their festivals are all melancholic and bloody, they are so formal that we are inferior to them in that respect. They are not to be envied, though, because they are slaves to their priests, and much more to their creeds."

=> Again, in tribal cultures people don't enslave each other. Shamans are not the masters of their other tribesmen.

"They believe that evil spirits are everywhere and enter into people and animals, but of Wralda’s spirit they know nothing.
They have stone weapons, the Magyarar of copper.
The Magyarar claims that they can exorcise and recall evil spirits.
The people are always in dreadful fear and there is never any joy to be seen on their faces.”

=> I have shown that exorcism was a common theme in christianity, and in most religions the priests claim or suggest to represent the spirit world or holy spirit.

~ ~ ~

So your statement that OLB’s description of the Magy religion "is an exact match of that of Shamanism" is not right.

Quote originally Posted by Transvaler:

The point I am trying to make is that the OLB, in describing the religion of the “Magyarar” who came from the East, in fact, describes Shamanism from the Altai region in central Asia.

From your post #45, quote, Originally Posted by Transvaler:

When the Fryans (or “proto-Frisians”) founded Athens, they had to deal with the same type of Shamanistic Priests and they were eventually expelled by these priests ... When the Gertmanna went to India, they again came across these Shamanist Priests. ... "... they fled from their customs and religion” (i.e. they fled from Shamanism). ... "... but on account of the priests they likewise went to the west.” (i.e. they also fled from Shamanism) ... When the Shamanists invaded the Indus Valley, the Iranians moved west where the Gertmanna later met them.
The fact that the Ira (or Iranians) were driven out from the East of the Punjab to the West by the Shamanists from Mongolia after the 4.2 ka BP Event...

======

From post #161

There is something interesting about your focus on 'shamanism' as being the supposed 'enemy' of the Fryans.
I will try to explain what.

Jensma's interpretation of the Frya VS Finda/ Magí/ Priests antithesis was:
Protestant Free Thinkers VS orthodox Protestants

Your interpretation seems to be (please correct me if I'm wrong):
Monotheism VS Shamanism or Polytheism

======

From post #164

That you changed "priests" (PRESTERA) into "shamanic priests" was suspicious to me. It does not add anything to your proof that OLB is authentic.

The reason why it irritated me is, that in our colonialist past (imo) we have destroyed many tribal cultures with their traditions of natural (sometimes 'shamanic') medicine, because our religious system dictated that they were evil and/or primitive.

I have had 'mystic' experiences myself (altered states of consciousness), that were healing for me and gave me some personal insight into the mysteries of life and death. It made me understand that there is something like a spirit world, but I cannot see the bible or any religious text as 'word of god'. I can get inspiration out of various spiritual traditions, but I cannot fully indentify with any of them.

The way 'Wralda' is described in the OLB, as spirit of the world, or origin of consciousness (over-oldest), makes sense to me.

The way those PRESTERA in OLB are described (imo) clearly fits more with our bishops and pope (even more so the ones from the past), than with tribal medicine men (shamans).

======

Posted July 1, #189


Thank you for the reply Transvaler.

Quote, originally Posted by Transvaler  

Otharus (...) every so often tries to draw me into a debate about religion that has nothing to do with the Oera Linda Book.

It is easy to see that much of the OLB debate is about religion.

The two of us agree that OLB has to be authentic.

The consequence of this for most people would be a different view upon old history and religion.

Fear for what would be a major paradigm shift is probably one of the main reasons why authenticity was denied and 'believers' were ridiculed.

I am careful not to use the OLB as a 'religious' text and in my translations I try to keep as close to the original as possible, as to not add too much of my own interpretations.

For example, I do not translate FAMNA with "maagden" (virgins) or "priestesses" (as Ottema and Sandbach did), and I do not interpret PRESTERA as "shaman priests" (as you do).

As with every ancient text, it is tempting to project ones own story on it (like Jensma did with his theory about the 19th century controversy between Protestant Free Thinkers and Orthodox Protestantism).

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He (...) frequently takes a swipe at Christianity despite his laughable “confession” that he enjoys the Sunday services at his local Protestant church. How can you enjoy or identify with any organization whose very core belief (i.e. that Jesus Christ is God incarnated) goes completely against your own conviction (that Jesus Christ was a mere mortal).

I enjoy being in that medieval church and I have felt more than welcome since my first visit. To me a church is a 'house of God' in the first place, and not of his supposed son or prophet. I enjoy listening to the music, bible readings and lectures of the parson. I also had some good private philosophical chats with him. He gave me a book about the OLB from 1927 as a present, that had belonged to his father. I basically enjoy learning about culture and art-history. It is also a social thing and it helps me understand my ancestors (and their problems with religion) better. Besides, there is no other religious, spiritual or philosophical group in my village (900 inhabitants). So it is the only and best available choice.

Do you think one can only appreciate a religion if one agrees with every of its dogmas? Jesus himself (as I understand it) 'took a swipe' at the religion and traditions of his own ancestors and people.

I don't see how any of this is 'laughable', but you might just have a strange sense of humor.

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Where the OLB describes the religion of the “Magyarar” in Finland, it was their perception of this foreign religion – most likely formed from others’ verbal accounts rather than first hand experiences. It would be naïve to expect the book to have given an accurate and textbook description of it. They more than likely saw the “Head Shaman” as the Magi and all the other shamans as part of the oligarchy.

The first thing that OLB says about those MAGÍ and MÁGJARA, is that they were "like the Egyptians, they have priests like them and now that they have churches they also have statues".

The MAGÍ is as much a "head shaman" as the Pope from Rome is.

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Reading between the lines, I get the impression (rightly or wrongly) that Otharus is trying to prove that the OLB’s religion was some form, or had elements of Shamanism in it.

That impression is wrong. I actually think early Christianity had more elements of 'shamanism' than the Fryan culture.

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The OLB’s religion does not even fit Pantheism or Panentheism. In the end I had to conclude that their religion was some form of monotheism, although some questions about their perception of God, as with Zoroastrinism, still remain.

FYI, Jensma in his thesis (written at a theological faculty) uses the term 'Monism' (not Monotheism) to describe the Fryan 'religion'.