26 December 2014

Forum #44 (5 oct. - 26 dec. 2014)

Posted 5 October 2014
A minor mistranslation by Ottema (1872), copied by Sandbach (1876)

twice - english
tvisvar - icelandic
tweemaal - dutch
zweimal - german
två gånger - swedish
to ganger - norse
to gange - danish

[090/01]
TWÍJA THRITICH DÉGA NÉI MÀM HIRA DÁD
[O/S p.125]
Tweeëndertigdagen na moeders dood
Two-and-thirty days after my mother's death

Translated correctly by Jensma (2006):
"Tweemaal dertig dagen na mem haar dood" (twice thirty = 60 days)

[107/17]
TWIJA TWILIF VPP.EN ETMELDE
[O/S p.147]
tweemaal twaalf in een etmaal
twenty-four [twice twelve = 24] go to a day

[209/32]
12 (TWILIF) MEL 100 (HVNDRED) ÀND TWIA.12 JÉR
[O/S p.165]
12 maal 100 en tweemaal 12 jaren (1224 jaar)
12 times 100 and twice 12 years (1224 years)

NOTE:
The Icelandic "tvisvar" (twice, two times) is interesting;
In OLB "WÁRA" is used many times in this way. Some examples:

[00b/03]
THVSAND WÁRA SÁ BIDD.IK TO JO
thousand times ...

[005/15]
NJVGUN WÁRA IS.ER TO HÉRTOGA [...] KÉREN
nine times ...

[006/02]
SJVGUN WÁRA SJVGUN JÉR
seven times seven (49) years

[011/27]
TÁNK TOWÍA. JÁ THRJU WARA
... yes, three times

### Posted 5 October 2014
View PostOthar Winis, on 5 October 2014 said:
The Icelandic "tvisvar" (twice, two times) is interesting;
In OLB "WÁRA" is used many times in this way.

We may be onto something interesting here.

Jensma, in his 2006 translation, for many words gave what he thought would have been the source (i.e. mostly: Oldfrisian dictionary) that would allegedly have been used by the assumed forgers.

For "WÁRA" he did not know a source and could only translate it because of the context in which the word was used (see page 71 of his 2006 translation).

Now we see a link to Icelandic...

### Posted 06 October 2014
View Postflashman7870 (Abramelin), on 23 September 2014 said:
Where are there descriptions for round cities on a hill WITH a baked brick tower in the center and longhouses coming like the spokes of the Jol Wheel dating from either the Bronze or early Iron Age?

Do there have to be remains of those for OLB to be authentic?

Quote
So unless the Over de Linden family wrote a 'source' almanac at some point, this would imply the existence of manuscripts similar to the OLB up to the 19th century. Seems suspect we haven't found any of these.

The oldest known Frisian almanaks are from the 17th century. The date could also be based on oral tradition, but even it it was based on written sources, the fact that these are not publicly known does not prove a thing. Loads of important sources will be hiding in private collections.

Quote
So Egypt is named for Gypsies rather then vice versa, the Med is named after a sea which only came into being in the 12th century, and the Black Sea was named after the Baltic sea at some point, the pillars of Hercules are named for those in Frisia etc etc?

I don't get your point. OLB does not claim any of that and neither do I.

Quote
Helvetii wrote in a Greek script, NOT Jol script, which Caesar would not have been able to read. What else is there?

What is your point?

Quote
But this is attested to in exactly one source.

So, if a spelling variety is found in one source only, this means that the source is fake? Are you serious?

Quote
Only those excerpts of the first edition, though where I am in the old thread he has finished his second edition. And he is one geologist against many.

That someone is one against many does not mean he is wrong.

OLB p.19/7 (Sandbach p.31):
TILTHJU THÀT MÁRA.DÉL ALSA BLÍD KÀN DWÁLA 
SA THÀT MINRA.DÉL
since the majority maybe wrong as well 
as the minority

If you want to claim he is wrong, you will have to come with real arguments.

Quote
I don't. I just dispute that the combination of the two into one word ever existed before the 1500s or whenever it was.

So you can't imagine that it existed. But we cannot be sure it didn't exist. That there is no other source (yet) is no proof.

Quote
OKKE MY SON—
You must preserve these books with body and soul. They contain the history of all our people, as well as of our forefathers. Last year I saved them in the flood, as well as you and your mother; but they got wet
Pretty clear he is referring to an actual flood. But even if he's not, what recorded incursions were there circa 1243?

The year was 1256 and in that year the army of Holland invaded Westfriesland, trying to conquer it. They failed. Their king Willem II fell through the ice and died.
Also, like I said before, not all real floods were necessarily recorded.


Quote
Why did Tolkien write Lord of the Rings (I know you hate the comparison but it's legitimate)? Why would Geoffrey of Monmouth write tales of Brutus and Corineus the Trojans and Etrusco-Trojans? Why would someone go through the effort to construct Dothraki?

It don't hate that comparison, but it fails. Tolkien lived from 1892 till 1973. He will have known the OLB and he may have been inspired by the idea. He did not work in secret, got money and honour for his work. I could give more arguments, but I am getting bored.


Quote
Because the results were inconclusive?

Because the results were not what they wanted them to be. See my video about it:


### Posted 7 October 2014
flashman7870, on 23 September 2014 said:
OKKE MY SON [...] Last year I saved them in the flood...
Pretty clear he is referring to an actual flood [...]

Another example of a metaphorical flooding in similar context:
Early printing presses of 1600's flooding Europe with images of English Protestant missionaries and their families being ethnically cleansed by the native Irish. Images designed to bombard the psyche of the average European towards the popular mandate that 'something had to be done' about the barbaric Irish.
source (Thomas Sheridan Blog, this Oct. 6)


### Posted 8 October 2014
The Puzzler, on 7 October 2014:
Yes, but the OLB says the paper got wet and began to perish so one can only imagine he means a flood of water.

It does not even have to be an extended metaphor:
Imagine they lived in Westfriesland (area near Enkhuizen), which was 'flooded' by Dutch (Holland) invasions.
Hidde takes his wife, son and the manuscripts and they escape to Friesland (Leeuwarden).
On their way the paper may have gotten wet, for example during heavy rain.


### Posted 21 October 2014
View Postflashman7870, on 21 October 2014, said:
George RR Martin, Tolkien, Issac Asmiov, HG Wells and so many others have written hundreds of thousands of pages compared to the 230 or something in the OLB.

1. they got credit (money, honor) for their work
2. they worked within an existing tradition
3. their work didn't cause the sort of controversy that the OLB did
4. they didn't use paper that modern science (supposedly) can't date
5. they didnt use a language that could be the main ancestor of the NW-European languages

Multatuli (1820-1887) was elected to be the favorite author (of all time) by the Society of Dutch Literature.
He could not imagine that any of his contemporaries had created the OLB and believed in its authenticity.
Relevant Multatuli quotes in this video:


### Posted 24 October 2014
View Postflashman7870, on 24 October 2014 said:
why aren't there any temples to Nef Teunis in Tyre [...]

A counter-query will answer that.
Why aren't there any remains of Tanfana temples?

Priesthoods of all times tend to destroy or take over the temples of their predecessors.

That there are temples left of some discarded deities, doesn't mean that of all deities that were once worshipped temples must have been preserved.


### Posted 25 October 2014
View Postflashman7870, on 21 October 2014 said:
But now, I ask you; what is YOUR overwhelming evidence that the OLB isn't a Nationalist Fantasy?

Analogy:
If there is no convincing evidence that someone was murdered, it makes no sense to prove that he wasn't.

If you believe that OLB is fake, that means Over de Linden (and witnesses who had heard of it before the 1850s, all) must have lied.
I say he (they) can only be accused of that if there is good evidence for it.
There isn't.

Try to explain why modern techniques (supposedly) can't date the paper.
The answer is simple IMO:
Because the 'researchers' don't even allow for the possibility that it's older than 19th century after all.
Why?


### Posted 25 October 2014
View Postflashman7870, on 21 October 2014 said:
... Ancient Greek is Kekrops. ... when the OLB authors looked in their sources, they saw it spelled 'Cecrops', and, not knowing it was a hard C, spelled it 'Sekrops'.

Why is C sometimes pronounced S (when followed by e, i, y), sometimes as K? (And again different in CH?)
Maybe the people always said Syklope and Sékrops, or else when did they start to do this?

I don't know much of Greek and Latin Kaballah, but what I understand is that letters (and thus words) had numerical values.
Trained people imediately see those values and possible hidden meanings.

Perhaps Sékrops wanted his name to be spelled KEKROPS, to get a better kabbalistic value, while that didn't stop the people from saying SÉKROPS.
Similar thing may be the case with Cyclope.

We should be humble and accept there is very much we simple don't know yet.


###Posted 25 October 2014
View PostAbramelin, on 25 October 2014 said:
As far as I know, leeches do not make slaves and do not steal knowledge and do not live in dungeons and holes.

It only says that they suck blood.

aend hjara blod ut to sûgane, even as vampyra dva

Good find Van Gorp.
It could also just be wam-pier = buik-worm (belly-worm), that could be in this case a worm with a 'belly', a thick fat worm, in contrast to the regular slim worms:


 ### Posted 26 October 2014
View Postflashman7870, on 25 October 2014 said:
There are witnesses. "No one will believe it, they would roar with laughter"

If you would have re-read the whole thread - and not only your own posts - you should know this is nonsense,

as I wrote on 24 November 2011:

"Also, as I have pointed out several times before, the story of Floris was out of the THIRD hand, written down a century after it was supposed to have happened.
Floris stayed with his grandfather in the summer of 1869. Two years earlier, in 1867, Verwijs was already writing to state officials about the manuscript (being ca. 200 pages)."


Quote
There are suspicious circumstances. Pre-numbered pages in de Linden's house, a use of commas in a peculiar way also used by de Linden.

There are plausible explanations for that.
OdL or one of his forefathers may have wanted to make the book complete again.
Also, these pages were 'discovered' long after the OdL had died. Someone else may have added them later.
We don't know if that use of commas is all that peculiar. I remember having seen that more often in 18th century notary documents.


Quote
There are indications of conspiracy. One of the correspondances between Halbertsma and his brother tells us that Halbertsma's brother burned his letters as he requested.

People have many reasons to get rid of old letters.
I have seen better conspiracy theories than that.


Quote
... You are guilty till proven innocent. ...

In nowaday USA maybe.
Not here in Europe.


### Posted 27 October 2014
View Postflashman7870, on 26 October 2014 said:
It is NOT a criminal court case, you are NOT assumed innocent till proven guilty.

Put aside if you are right, do you believe this is how it should be?


### Posted 27 October 2014
View Postflashman7870, on 25 October 2014 said:
And this is Scholarship/ Science, NOT a court. You are guilty till proven innocent. You are not supplied a public defender.

Ofcourse it's not a court, but you use the term "guilty".

Guilty of what?
... of lying?
... of presenting a fake manuscript as being authentic?

Is it ethical to label someone a liar, when your only 'evidence' is, that you can't imagine he is telling the truth?

My position is that I feel bad about Over de Linden having been falsy accused of lying, as I believe in his innocence.
The alleged (obvious?) 'evidence' against him has not convinced me (nor has it many others).

In that sense I am indeed his "public defender".


###Posted 27 October 2014
Interesting new book, to be published next april:

How The Modern World Arose From The North Sea
By Michael Pye

Two fragments from article about this book:

... those Vikings, the Frisians before them and the Hanseatic merchants after them invented for themselves the conditions for modernity: international trade, money, credit, mathematics, law, the stock exchange, pensions and much else.
Mr Pye asks his readers to imagine a time before fixed national borders, when identity was not so much a matter of race, but of "where you were and where you last came from". The sea was a thoroughfare, quicker than rutted roads. It made it easy for "Scandinavians to be in York, Frisians in Ipswich, Saxons in London".
...
A central theme of this book is the re-invention of money and its role in the development of abstract, scientific and, eventually, secular thought. As a sea-trading people, the Frisians needed portable cash, not the gold and treasure of chiefs and kings, often hoarded and inert. They began minting silver coins, as a currency, an exchange.

Value became an idea, detached from the intrinsic nature of a thing. It could be calculated for different categories of goods, and more than that, it could be written down, arithmetically juggled, turned into ratios and equations. A new way of thinking was born, transactional and everyday, and yet with momentous philosophical implications.



###Posted 31 October 2014
I was asked to prove that OLB is authentic, that is: a 13th century copy of older originals.

Although I personally am convinced this is the case, I don't claim to have hard evidence for this.

What I do claim is that the reasons - thus far presented - to reject authenticity are invalid.

None of the so-called 'evidence' against authenticity is hard.

I also claim that it is suspect that even modern paper research has not resulted in a clear dating of the paper age.
And that it is a shame that the 'researchers' don't even want to consider the possibility that the paper is from the 13th century, as it looks exactly like Arab paper of that age (same waterline pattern).

Many people like certainty: it has to be either hoax or authentic. They can't stand the idea that something is just not fully clear (to them) yet.

To go from never having heard of the OLB to believing it's authentic is a big step.
To go from being convinced it's a hoax to accepting it's not might even be harder.

That is why I have taken the position of debunking the hoax theory first, the claims of people who say it's evidently fake (many of them not even having read it first).

My one hour video ("Saved from the Flood") is based on that idea.

I have given up 'discussing' with Abramelin, because in my perception he is not susceptible for reason.

Example: he keeps claiming "BEDRVM" can't be much older than the 16th century because there are no older written sources with a similar word. But BED(-A: verb) and RUM are both known to be much older, and there is no reason to exclude the possibility that the words were combined long before Shakespeare wrote "bedroom".

Some Aboriginal languages may be thousands of years old, yet only in the last century were they written down for the first time (as far as we know).

I can imagine if people have their reasons to doubt.
Doubt is good, but it's not evidence.


###Posted 31 October 2014
A personal 'coincidence' (no proof of anything!) just for whoever might be interested.

According to Hidde Oera Linda, the year 1256 CE equals 3449 after Átland ("the old land") sank.
That means 2007 was 4200 after the sinking of Átland (7 x 600 years or 6 x 700 years).

Making a (JOL-) wheel with 700-year spokes, leaving out 'year zero':
2194 BCE - spoke 1
1494 BCE - spoke 2
0794 BCE - spoke 3
0094 BCE - spoke 4
0607 CE - spoke 5
1307 CE - spoke 6 *
2007 CE - spoke '7' or full circle = spoke 1 again

In 2007 I had a near-death experience that radically changed my life (for the better).
Until 2009 I had only vaguely heard about the OLB, not knowing any detail nor opinion about it.

* 1307 CE: October 13 (Friday the 13th, at dawn) – All Knights Templar in France are simultaneously arrested by agents of King Philip IV, to be later tortured into "confessing" heresy.

###Posted 31 October 2014
View Postflashman7870, on 31 October 2014 said:
It's not impossible, but it seems unlikely.

Good, that one is settled then.
Any hard evidence against authenticity left?

###Posted 31 October 2014
View Postflashman7870, on 31 October 2014 said:
One cannot sail from Greece to Kashmyr in the Bronze Age, as the Sinai was not at that time water, as far as I know.

Dr. Ottema already answered that, as translated by Sandbach (1876, p.xiii-xiv of Introduction):


Quote
The establishment of the colonists in the Punjab in 1551 before Christ, and their journey thither, we find fully described in Adela's book; and with the mention of one most remarkable circumstance, namely, that the Frisian mariners sailed through the strait which in those times still ran into the Red Sea.
In Strabo, book i. pages 38 and 50, it appears that Eratosthenes was acquainted with the existence of the strait, of which the later geographers make no mention. It existed still in the time of Moses (Exodus xiv. 2), for he encamped at Pi-ha-chiroht, the "mouth of the strait." Moreover, Strabo mentions that Sesostris made an attempt to cut through the isthmus, but that he was not able to accomplish it. That in very remote times the sea really did flow through is proved by the result of the geological investigations on the isthmus made by the Suez Canal Commission, of which M. Renaud presented a report to the Academy of Sciences on the 19th June 1856.
etc.

###Posted 1 November 2014
View PostVan Gorp, on 31 October 201 said:
Freyer seems to me "Vrijer" (lover, vrij-en, friend)

... or frère (french for brother)?

###Posted 1 November 2014
View PostThe Puzzler, on 1 November 2014 said:
frolic (...)
(...) Merry, joyous; later especially, frolicsome, sportive, full of playful mischief.
(...) Free; liberal; bountiful; generous.

Interesting.
The dutch and german equivalents would be:
dutch: vrouwelijk - feminine, female
german: fraulich - womanly, womanlike



###Posted 11 November 2014
QVAÞ = KÉTH ==> see separate post


###Posted 11 November 2014
View PostVan Gorp, on 9 November 2014 said:
Am i interpreting correctly that Magy, Finns and Finda were sitting in back part of Scandinavia and Twiskland at latest in 180 after Aldland sank.
When well established were lurking for iron weapons,
which the Fryans only started to sell 1300 years later
and the gradually takeover of Denmark was fulfilled within 100 years?

Good question VG. I welcome more discussion about the actual content of the OLB, but don't have an answer to this at the moment.


###Posted 11 November 2014
A remarkable contradiction (or did this law change?):

[041/14] Minno's laws (SETMA and DOMAR) as copied at one of the citadels ca. 600 BCE
3. JAHWÉDER JONG KERDEL ÁCH EN BRUD TO SÉKA

ÀND IS ER FIF ÀND TWINTICH SA ÁCHTER EN WIF TO HÀVA.
3. Every young man ought to seek a bride

and is he five-and-twenty, he ought to have a wife.
[168/21] from short fragment by Béden, ca. 240 BCE?
KONE.RÉD MIN ÉM IS NIMMER BOSTIGJATH

ÀND ALSA BERNLÁS STURVEN.
Koneréd my uncle never got married

and thus died childless.

###Posted 11 November 2014
View PostOthar Winis, on 11 November 2014 said:
[041/14] Minno's laws (SETMA and DOMAR) as copied at one of the citadels ca. 600 BCE
3. JAHWÉDER JONG KERDEL ÁCH EN BRUD TO SÉKA
ÀND IS ER FIF ÀND TWINTICH SA ÁCHTER EN WIF TO HÀVA.
3. Every young man ought to seek a bride
and is he five-and-twenty, he ought to have a wife.

The fragment continues thus:

4. IS HWA FIF ÀND TVINTICH ÀND HETH ER NÉN ÉNGÁ

SÁ ACH EK MAN HIM UT SIN HUS TO WÉRANE.

THA KNÁPA ACHON HIN TE FORMYDA.

NIMTH ER THÀN NACH NÉN ÉNGÁ

SA MOT MÀN HIN DÁD SÉZA TILTHJU HI UT OF LANDE BRÛDE

ÀND HIR NÉN ÀRGENESE NÉVA NE MÉI.
Sandbach's liberal translation:
4. If a young man is not married at five-and-twenty,

he must be driven from his [every] home,

and the younger men must avoid him.

If then he [still] will not marry,

he must be declared dead, and leave the country,

so that he may not give offence.
So according to that law, it's more serious than just not fulfilling one's duty.
And this uncle Koneréd apparently still had an honorable position.



###Posted 12 November 2014
View Postflashman7870, on 12 November 2014 said:
... making a 'lost' part of the OLB.

If the 190 pages would be of 19th century fabrication, it should be relatively easy to create only 1 page now, as we have much more knowledge and techniques at our disposal.
Yet no one has ever dared to even try it.
That is because it is simply too difficult.
If it is too difficult now, it was impossible in the 19th century.


Quote
... the flaws of the Fryans.

Yes, several examples of that could be given.
OLB describes a civilisation in decline.


###Posted 22 November 2014
When the Spaniards came to Peru, Heyerdahl [1914-2002] asserted, the Incas told them that the colossal monuments that stood deserted about the landscape were erected by a race of white gods who had lived there before the Incas themselves became rulers. The Incas described these "white gods" as wise, peaceful instructors who had originally come from the north in the "morning of time" and taught the Incas' primitive forefathers architecture as well as manners and customs.  They were unlike other Native Americans in that they had "white skins and long beards" and were taller than the Incas.

The Incas said that the "white gods" had then left as suddenly as they had come and fled westward across the Pacific. After they had left, the Incas themselves took over power in the country.
atlanteangardens/quetzalcoatl-kukulkan-viracocha-votan

OLB translation Sandbach (1876), p.81: Inka thought that perchance some high-lying part of Atland might remain as an island, where he and his people might live in peace. As the two cousins could not agree, Teunis planted a red flag on the shore, and Inka a blue flag. Every man could choose which he pleased, and to their astonishment the greater part of the Finns and Magyars followed Inka, who had objected to serve the kings of Finda's people. When they had counted the people and divided the ships accordingly, the fleet separated. We shall hear of Teunis afterwards, but nothing more of Inka.



###Posted 24 November 2014
A translation error by Ottema (1872), translated by Sandbach (1876).
Correction in bold green.
[original manuscript p. 38, line 8]
HJRA BYLDNESE STÀLDON HJA VPPA HJARA ÀLTÀRUM 

JEFTHA HJA VRSELLADE.T ANDA DVMA MÀNNISKA.
HJA KÉTHON ALLERWÉIKES RÉDJÉVINGA.

THÉR HJU NIMMER JÉVEN HÉDE.
ÀND TÀLADON WONDERA.
THÉR HJU NA DÉN HÉDE.

[Ottema p.55]
Zij stelden haar beeld op hunne altaren, 

zij verkondigden of verkochten aan de domme menschen allerwegen raadgevingen 
of ze verkochten het aan de domme mensen. 
Ze verkondigden allerwegen (overal) raadgevingen,
die zij nimmer gegeven had,
en vertelden wonderen
die zij nooit gedaan had.
[Sandbach p.55]
They erected statues to her on all their altars, 

they announced and sold to the simple people advice  
or sold them to the simple people. 
They announced ('allways'; everywhere) advice,
that she had never given,
and related miracles
that she had never performed.



###Posted 4 December 2014
In the following quotes, Heinrich Himmler (1900-1945) referred to WR.ALDA
==> see separate post


###Posted 12 December 2014
View PostPassing Time (NO-ID-EA), on 11 December 2014 said:
do you guys know where else i can find all the pages , so i can still read it in it's original presentation.

The whole original manuscript is here: http://aldfryas.blog...y-aldfryas.html
Scroll down a bit for a list of links (8a, 4b, etc).



###Posted 12 December 2014
View PostOthar Winis, on 14 August 2014 said:
Arthur Hübner (1885-1937), a nazi-linguist, wrote in 1934 ("Herman Wirth und die Ura-Linda-chronik"), translated: "Not only is the OLB democratic, führer- [Hitler-] inimical, and pacifistic in its foundations, as a whole it is a worthless fabrication ["without juice and power"]."
Menno ter Braak (1902-1940), a dutch author and anti-Fascist, wrote in the same year ("Arthur Hübner contra Herman Wirth"), translated: "The OLB should be added to the program of secondary education, in a good translation and with pedagogic comments, to educate the youth!"

Significant:
In a dutch radio interview (12 December 2004), Dr. Goffe Jensma claims (at 1:47:00) that the content of the OLB is "racist".
http://www.vpro.nl/i...PRO_207968.html


###Posted 26 December 2014
A jolly Yule to all!
Let's try to rekindle the discussion in the new year.

I have been busy with becoming a father and currently also with finding a new home for my family. After that my plan is to create a new edition of the OLB with fascimile, transcription, translation, lots of footnotes and discussion. But I keep an eye on this thread and if something serious and interesting is posted, I will join again.

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