19 January 2014

Forum #41 (1 - 19 jan. 2014)

Posted 01 January 2014 - 05:13 PM
Knul, on your website, you write:
"... het werkelijke bedrog [is] m.i. gepleegd door het duo Ernst Stadermann en Cornelis over de Linden [...] die meenden veel geld aan het manuscript of een uitgave daarvan te kunnen verdienen."

"... the actual fraud [was] i.m.o committed by Stadermann and Over de Linden [...] who thought they could make a lot of money from the manuscript or a publication of it."

The facts are in strong contrast to your speculation, which undermines your whole theory:

Letter Verwijs to Over de Linden (16-10-1867):
"mag ik [...] een voorstel doen met U te onderhandelen over de overname?"
=> "may I do a proposal to negotiate with you about selling it?"

Letter Over de Linden to Verwijs (17-10-1867):
"Een familiestuk dat zoo ter bewaring wordt aanbevolen mag men zijne kinderen niet ontvreemden, dus niet verkoopen."
and "ik wil het toch voor geen waarde ruilen"
=> "One can´t take an inherited family treasure, that is advised to be protected in this way, from ones children, so it can´t be sold."
and "I don´t want to sell it for any price"

Verwijs in his report to the Provincial Executive of Friesland (17-12-1867):
"Hij eiste bepaaldelijk dat het oude Hs. [Oera Linda Boek] eerst in zijn geheel voor hem vertaald. Was dit geschied, kende hij er den inhoud van, dan zoude hij er volstrekt niet tegen zijn dat het Hs. werd uitgegeven, mits het maar niets bevatte dat zijne familie kon compromitteeren!"
=> "He demanded explicitly that the old manuscript [OLB] would first all be translated for him. When this was done, and he knew the content, he would by no means object publication, as long as it did not contain anything that could compromise his family."

Never (when he had the chance) did Over de Linden make an attemt to make money from selling it or from publication.
This means that your speculation about Over de Linden and Stadermann hoping to make money from it is nonsense.

Posted 06 January 2014 - 05:27 PM
View PostAbramelin, on 04 January 2014 - 11:26 PM, said:
If you can read and understand the language used in the OLB, you can read and understand Dutch.
It is not that different at all, and it should be no surprise it isn't.

View PostKnul, on 06 January 2014 - 12:20 PM, said:
To understand the OLB completely one should know Dutch, English, Frisian, German and Latin plus various Dutch and Frisian dialects, (e.g. myk - made in Prov. Zeeland).  I know one person who knew all of them: J.H. Halbertsma.

You have the illusion that the language of the OLB is so easy to understand (for who has a basic knowledge of languages), but from the start you had a translation at hand and I doubt that you ever read und undersood it all without one.

Eelco Verwijs (1830-1880), who was one of the best and most famous linguists of his time, and who published about etymology, had so much trouble translating it, that he gave up after a few years (!), although he was very interested.

Read the following fragments from letters by Verwijs (my translation, original text below):

1) 1867 june 28 - to J.F. Jansen
"This morning I copied a whole speech which is not all clear to me yet, but which, as far as I could judge from the copy, is most curious."

2) 1867 oct. 13 - to C. Over de Linden (OdL)
"As I said, I was overjoyed with the discovery and told many of my friends. Part of it was quite easy to understand and, although seeming to be of younger age, not different from the language of the Oldfrisian laws from the 13th and 14th century. But there were also fragments, that I didn't and still don't understand and that will take much meticulous study, before I can clarify them."

3) 1867 oct. 16 - to OdL
"I really can't promise you the translation of a separate part, as there are difficulties in it, that may take weeks of study."

4) 1867 oct. 19 - to OdL
"It certainly is a manuscript from one of your ancestors - which means your family is very old - , that was copied many times and by all means deserves to become known. [...] The importance of the manuscript will give the ancient name of the Oera Linda's a radiance, brighter than any of the oldest noble families."

5) 1868 nov. 21 - to OdL
"The case is of enough interest to me, to finally dive into it properly."

6) 1869 may 17 - to OdL
"Then I hope to take the whole with me in this summer holiday and start translating."

7) 1869 nov. 11 - to OdL
"I finally return the manuscript to you, but you will be sorry that the translation is still missing. [...] Here and there translation is very easy and it can be done at first sight; but other parts contain difficulties, that take much time and study. But I hope to be able to help you soon now."

8) 1869 nov. 11 - to J. Winkler
"Here and there translation is easy, but there are also quite some difficulties and unknown words. I know that if I would start, I would not rest before I have solved them, and that way I would spend much too much time on it. [...] The case is of much interest to me, so I don't want to fully withdraw from it. [...] Such an etymological quest is very much of my liking, [...] It's odd that it contains some very old words and that also the forms point at a previous linguistic era, while other expressions sound so very modern." [Verwijs could not (or hardly) imagine that some expressions were old, which does not prove that they could not in fact have neen old.]

~ ~ ~

Original fragments in dutch

1) "Vanmorgen heb ik een geheele speech gekopieerd die mij nog niet in allen deelen duidelijk is, maar die, zoo verre ik uit de kopie kon opmaken, allercurieust is."

2) "Zoo als ik zeide, was ik hoogelijk ingenomen met den vondst en deelde dien velen mijner vrienden mede. Een deel er van was zeer makkelijk verstaanbaar en, hoewel wat jonger kleur vertoonende, niet ongelijk aan de taal der oude Friesche Wetten uit de 13e en 14e eeuw. Doch er waren ook passages in, die ik niet verstond en nog niet versta en waarvoor nog al eenige naauwgezette studie zal noodig zijn, om ze te kunnen oplossen."

3) "U nu de vertaling van een los op zich zelf staand katern binnen kort te beloven, dat kan ik waarlijk niet, daar er zich moeilijkheden in voordoen, die misschien weken studie vereischen."

4) "'t Is zeker een meermalen overgeschreven handschrift van een Uwer voorvaders - en dan is Uwe familie zeer oud -, dat alleszins verdiend gekend te worden. [...] Door de belangrijkheid van het handschrift zal ook de eeuwenoude naam der Oera Linda's een glans verkrijgen, dien de oudste adelijke geslachten missen."

5) "En dan interesseert mij de zaak genoeg om ze eens goed aan te pakken."

6) "Dan hoop ik het geheel in mijne vacantie dezen zomer mee te nemen en mij dan aan de vertaling te zetten."

7) "Eindelijk zend ik U het handschrift terug, waarbij Gij de vertaling evenwel nog met smart zult missen. [...] Hier en daar is de vertaling zeer gemakkelijk en kan van 't blad geschieden; maar op andere plaatsen komen weer moeilijkheden voor, die nog al tijd en studie vereischen. 'k Hoop evenwel U nu eerlang te kunnen helpen."

8) "Hier en daar kan men de vertaling zoo opschrijven, doch er schuilen ook nog al moeilijkheden en vreemde woorden in. Nu weet ik wel, zoo ik er eens mee begin, ik niet eerder rust voor ik die heb opgelost, en zoo zou ik er veel te veel tijd aan besteden. [...] De zaak interesseert mij nog al, en 't is mijn doel dan ook niet om er mijne handen geheel af te trekken. [...] Zoo'n etymologische kwestie valt nog al in mijn smaak, [...] 't Is vreemd, dat er enkele zeer oude woorden in schuilen, dat ook de vormen op een vorig tijdperk der taal wijzen, terwijl andere uitdrukkingen zoo heel nieuw klinken."

Posted 06 January 2014 - 06:24 PM
View PostAbramelin, on 06 January 2014 - 05:44 PM, said:
Yes, I had a translation at hand, and that is how I learned OLBan. As soon as I got the hang of it, I did the translations on my own, as you WELL KNOW.

Which you could not have done without the existing translations.

My translations were often different from Ottema's and Sandbach's, and I based those translations on my high-school knowledge of Middle/Old Dutch, and what I discovered online, using Old Frisian, Old Norse, and Old/Middle Dutch dictionaries. Dictionaries not available to both Ottema and Sandbach.

Neither were those dictionaries available to your supposed creator(s).

So you think you made some minor improvements here and there.
That doesn't mean the whole book can easily be understood for anyone with the basic knowlege that you have.

As for the similaries between Fryan and modern Dutch and Frisian;
There are also such similarities between Fryan and German and Scandic languages, as there are between those languages themselves. Some terms and expressions have survived in this, some in that language. What else could we expect from a real ancient text? You would be surprised how many Fryan words survived to-the-letter in Norse and Icelandic (while being very different from Dutch).

And again: your only 'proof' is that you can't imagine that some words are that old.
That is no valid evidence at all.

Many breakthroughs in science have happened in the past that people could not imagine before they were accepted reality.

Posted 07 January 2014 - 07:19 AM
View PostKnul, on 06 January 2014 - 09:16 PM, said:
Unfortunately, you overlooked that he [Verwijs] called the OLB nonsense of recent date, a joke etc.
He didn't use those words. I challenge you to quote him. He got a good job in Leiden working on a big dictionary and he will have feared to waste his reputation, as public opinion already turned against the OLB. His new bosses in 'Holland' may not have liked the possible political implications of the book either.

By the way, Verwijs was no Oldfrisian specialist and didn't know about dialects like Winkler did.

Winkler may have known something about dialects, but he wasn't able to do the job either.
It is simple psychology (as is the case with Verwijs): rather than admitting he was not able to translate it, it was easier to say he did not want to, because he believed it was fake.

Posted 07 January 2014 - 09:00 AM
View PostKnul, on 06 January 2014 - 09:16 PM, said:
Verwijs was no Oldfrisian specialist and didn't know about dialects like Winkler did.

Winkler was a medical doctor (general practitioner) who was interested in dialects and Frisian history, but did he publishanything significant about Oldfrisian, Olddutch or Oldgerman?

Verwijs was more than a specialist Oldfrisian; he was a philologist.
He published about Old- (or 'middle'-) Dutch and etymology.
Winkler was (literally) an amateur compared to Verwijs.

That is why Verwijs was considered to be the main suspect of having created the whole OLB (by De Jong, 1926), or at least its language (by Winkler, Jensma).

Say, Knul, were your aleged creators of the OLB Oldfrisian specialists?

Posted 13 January 2014 - 05:58 PM
In museum Schloß Wilhelmshöhe, Kassel, I saw an interesting painting (1760, Nikolaus Hoffmann).
It has the oldest known (to me) picture of a ´christmas´ tree and, even more interesting a female ´santa´.
Why have I never heard of this before?
At least in some part of Germany this must have been an old tradition, and it may very well go back to the time that the Yule-feast was (also) a celebration of Frya´s invention of the JOL-letters, as described in the OLB.

Posted Image


Posted 14 January 2014 - 03:32 PM
View PostNO-ID-EA, on 13 January 2014 - 10:03 PM, said:
Is that supposed to be a nativity scene on the table... or just some toys of the kids ??
Nice lion (of Judah) picture prominently placed on the wall ?

Looks like toys to me.
Yes the lion is remarkably detailed.
The old Frisian coat of arms was two lions (yellow on blue) and the one of the counts of Frisia (later Holland) was a lion too (red on yellow).
Flanders (Belgium) has a black lion on yellow and current Netherlands a yellow lion on blue.
So no reason to assume any link to judea.

Posted Image

Flanders (southern Netherlands):
Posted Image

Posted Image

Friesland (incl. Westfriesland):
Posted Image


Posted 14 January 2014 - 04:55 PM
Also worth considering is:

1) this line from the OLB (Sandbach p.17):

"Powerful Frya! At the glance of her eye the lion lay down at her feet"

2) the fact that Frya is associated with cats:

Posted Image

3) the Germanic tribe-name Chatti (= cats? = lions?)

Posted Image


Posted 15 January 2014 - 09:22 AM
View PostNO-ID-EA, on 13 January 2014 - 10:03 PM, said:
Nice lion (...) picture prominently placed on the wall?

I had a little revelation:

In the OLB the word for lion(s) is exactly the same as the verb to believe: "LÁWA".

Dutch: geloven, related to loven (praise, english: love), beloven (promise)
German: glauben, loben, lieben

lion - english
leeuw - dutch
liuw - frisian
löwe - german
løve - danish, norse
lejon - swedish
ljón - icelandic
leyvur - faroese
lion - french
leo - latin

Will explain in more detail when I have time.

Posted 17 January 2014 - 06:39 PM
View Postgestur, on 01 December 2013 - 04:49 PM, said:
OLB-believers are dangerous!

"Its mythologic-religious character makes the book loved by some loners, whose belief in secret conspiracies entices them to commit (suicide) attacks." (my translation)

Original dutch text:
"Het mythologisch-religieuze karakter maakt het boek eveneens geliefd bij sommige einzelgängers, wier geloof in geheime samenzweringen hen tot (zelfmoord)aanslagen verleidt."

Source: "Bedrog, bijgeloof en zelfmoord in Friesland" (Deceit, superstition and suicide in Friesland) in Eos Magazine (sept. 2011), by penny-a-liner Chris Reinewald.

I asked the scribbler for a source and if he knew an example of such an attack. He answered that he had promised his anonymous source to not reveil any details in order to protect him/her.

I found a fascinating possible piece of the puzzle.

Jensma suggested (don't recall where exactly now) that the OLB had made 'victims' (people who believed in its authenticity).
Other authors have suggested that it would be a product of dark forces.

In 1983 Jensma acted (main character) in a short film, titled "Stof tot Stilte" (he used the name Goffe Theunis).

This film can very well be seen as an allegory about the OLB.

The plot in short:
A young photographer falls in love with a mysterious, unattainable woman who was in the background of some photos he took.
He does not know that the woman was sent there on purpose by an man (fate, doom?), to make him the victim of his evil plot.
He gets obsessed with her and enters a limbo of doubt: Does she still live, is she real at all?
At the end he meets her, but she somehow dissappoints him, anyway he looses his mind and commits suicide.
The film ends with the mysterious evil man looking for a new victim.

See and decide for yourself:

If someone from the group of friends who made this film got obsessed with the OLB, lost his mind and/ or commited suicide, this would explain the fear around the OLB that I sense in Jensma's book (and in Friesland in general). Psychologically it is a well known mechanism to ridicule or demonise something that is feared. (Just speculating out loud.)

Posted 18 January 2014, 11:33 AM
View PostKnul, on 18 January 2014 - 09:47 AM, said:
... Dr. J.H. Halbertsma

IF Halbertsma would have written the OLB,

1) it would have been more than a masterpiece and he would have known that. He would have wanted the honour. His family would have known that he had worked on it.
2) he would have included Hindelopen, which he was convinced to be the most pristine Frisian city.
3) why would the family Over de Linden (Ovira Linda, Oera Linda) have been included?
4) how would it have gotten into the hands over Over de Linden and/ or Stadermann?

Posted 19 January 2014, 10:21 AM
View PostKnul, on 19 January 2014 - 10:06 AM, said:
Who else could have written it ?

That Halberstma did not write it, does not mean someone else must have written it.
Start considering the possibility that it is authentic and all will begin to make much more sense.

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