31 January 2011

Forum # 1 (sep. 22 - nov. 27, 2010)

Posts on 'Unexplained Mysteries' forum
Posted 22.09.10 - 07:41 PM by Alewyn
Welcome Otharus,
I for one, am very happy to welcome somebody to this thread who seems to be well informed on the subject.
I am looking forward to your unbiased views.
I support your conclusion (obviously) that the OLB is much too complex to have been made up as a hoax or joke.
My apologies, that should read tread, I believe.

*** Posted 22.09.10 - 10:36 AM
Abramelin, 26.06.10 - 07:17 PM
Don't you think it is somewhat strange that it's the Frisians themselves who are convinced the Oera Linda Book is a hoax, and that only non-Frisians (and non-Dutch) believe it's real?

This is not correct.

There are Frisians and Dutch who believe it is real, but most of them wisely stay silent, because there is a long tradition of fanatically ridiculing anyone who even dares to take the OLB seriously.

I am a Westfrisian and have read the whole manuscript in the original language.
With my modest knowledge of various languages (Dutch, English, German, Swedish, old-Greek, Latin as well as the Westfrisian dialect) this was not very difficult.

Also, I have studied the works of the 'official' specialist Dr. G.Th. Jensma, who claims it was made up in the 19th century.

He has convinced me of one thing; that his approach is biassed (he started from the assumption that OLB is a hoax).

My own conclusion is, that the manuscript is way too complex to have been made up as a joke by a few intellectuals in the 19th century.

I will read the whole tread too (as well as Alewyn's book), but could not leave this untruth uncommented for now.

*** Posted 22.09.10 - 12:08 PM
Abramelin, 03.07.10 - 02:44 PM
My doubts are caused by the really silly etymology of the OLB

This is a point also used several times by Jensma.

But then again, many Dutch people tend to think of the Flemish and Afrikaans language as "silly".

For Frisians and Hollanders some of the OLB words may seem modern, because they remind them of recently (re-) adopted words from other languages, but this can be explained by the fact that 'Fryan' left its traces in many other old languages, including Latin and old-Greek.

An example often used (e.g. by dr.Jensma) is "BEDRUM", translated by him as 'sleepchamber' (slaapkamer).

BEDEN means to ask, pray, offer (Dutch: bidden, bieden);
RUM means space or room (Dutch: ruim, ruimte).

The modern word "bed" can hereby be explained.

*** Posted 25.09.10 - 02:39 PM
Abramelin, 24.09.10 - 08:47 PM
Although I will agree with Jensma's opinion about the OLB being a complex and praisable work of art, the way words and names are being explained/ derived in the OLB is nothing but hilarious.

That depends on ones sense of humour.
You ignored my alternative explanation of "BEDRUM".
Do you find it hilarious too?

*** Posted 25.09.10 - 09:22 PM
Abramelin, 24.09.10 - 12:12 PM
And what did you think about my explanation of "Twiskland"?
... And Otharus is someone who lives close to the West Frisian "Twisk".


The Swedish name for Germany is "Tyskland"...

*** Posted 07.10.10 - 04:25 PM
Abramelin, 25.09.10 - 03:04 PM
"bedrum fon thêre Moder"
"slaapvertrek van de Moeder" (Ottema)
"bedroom of the folk-mother" (Sandbach)
You appear to suggest that this folk-mother was about to be raped in her own... what, 'praying chamber'?


TEX FRYAS (page 11/12 Adela´s Followers Book), point 3:
MEN NE TOF NAVT TIL MAN JO BEEDEN HETH

Modern versions of this word may very well be:
BIDDEN (Dutch) meaning to pray
BIEDEN (Dutch) meaning to offer
BITTEN (German) meaning to ask
BJUDA / BEDJA (Swedish) meaning to ask, invite, request

This is why I think BEDRUM does not need to mean exactly the same as the modern English word BEDROOM.

In Dutch I would translate it -close to the original word- with BIDRUIMTE, a room for meditation, as we would say today.

Quote
These Frya people were not Christians, as you should know.

TEX FRYAS (page 11 Adela´s Followers Book),
point 1:
HROP THAN THI GAST WR.ALDAS AN

Which would mean something like:
then call for the spirit/ ghost of Wralda

point 2:
WR.ALDAS GAST MEEI MAN ... TANK TOWYA

Which would mean something like:
Wralda´s spirit/ ghost may one ... offer thanks

*** Posted 07.10.10 - 08:27 PM
Abramelin, 07.10.10 - 07:04 PM
you suggested earlier it was Jensma's interpretation ('bedrvm' = bedroom), but actually it was Ottema's.

No, I said Jensma (and some others, like yourself) used BEDRUM as an example of a modern word (to ´prove´ that the OLB cannot be that old).

Ofcourse, Ottema was the first to make the understandable mistranslation and Jensma copied it.

I think I have made it clear that BEDRUM does not need to have been derived from the modern English Bedroom, but rather, the other way around;

Bedroom (slaapkamer; a place to sleep) is derived from BEDRUM (bidruim; a place to ´pray´ or meditate as we would say).

Now another, similar mistranslation by Ottema and Jensma...

OLB page 62, 5th line; INUT THA WAGRUM

translated by them as "In the walls" (In de wanden).

What is a WAG-RUM?

I think I know the answer but this time, I´ll give any of you a chance to show you can solve an easy riddle.

You really don´t need to be a linguist for this (but it helps if you know some Old-Greek, Swedish and the Westfrisian dialect).

*** Posted 08.10.10 - 07:46 PM
Abramelin, 08.10.10 - 04:23 PM
... there is also another old Dutch and old Frisian word that means 'to wait' or 'to await', and it's something like 'beiden' (je tijd doorbrengen), in English something like 'to bide your time'.
So if I use this word, you get something like 'waiting room' or 'resting room'.
To me that comes close to the modern English 'bedroom', and I assume that is why Ottema translated 'bedrvm' into the modern English bedroom (Dutch, "slaapkamer").


Great, in any case, it means that the word BEDRUM can no longer be used as ´proof´ that OLB must have been made up in the 19th century because it would be derived from the modern English word bedroom.

This was an example used by Jensma and in an earlier post by Abram (#115):

"I have a better example for you: one rather famous word in the OLB is "BEDRVM", meaning "bedroom"... I found that quite hilarious."

*** Posted 08.10.10 - 08:24 PM
Abramelin, 08.10.10 - 04:47 PM
Ottema doesn't use wagrum or wag-rum, he uses "wâgrum".

I never use transcriptions from Ottema or Jensma, I only read and translate straight from the original source (in JOL-script).

Quote
Anyway, I haven't found anything Old Frisian that even resembles this word and means 'walls' ('wanden' in Dutch).

I could have a bit of fun with this word, and translate it as 'wachtkamer' (wacht room) ..., 'waiting-room'.


Well done!
You got very close.
See how much fun it is?

TO WAKE (english)
WAKEN (dutch) - guard, keep watch over, patrol, waking
WACHEN (german) - guard, keep watch over
(zich) WACHTEN (dutch) - wait, guard, look-out, watch-out
TO WATCH (english)
VAKA (swedish) - wake, watch, guard

The watch-tower would have been (one of) the central and most important buildings of a BURG (burcht, borough).
It would make sense to write important texts on its walls.

Therefore, my hypothesis is that
INUT THA WAGRUM
originally means something close to:
on the in- and outside of the ´wakeroom´ (watch-tower)
or:
on the (walls of the) ´wakeroom´ (watch-tower)

Later, the word WAGRUM or WAGUM may have gotten the meaning of walls in general.

Quote
But I don't think that would make much sense because I don't think the 'rum' part of the word is a noun ('room') here.

Why not?

*** Posted 08.10.10 - 08:33 PM
Abramelin, 08.10.10 - 08:08 PM
Show me the use of this word, 'bedrum' in another Old Frisian manuscript.
It should not have been a rare word because I assume the Old Frisians had bedrooms in their houses.
So it should be easy to find another old Frisian manuscript using that same word.
Believe me, I have tried, but couldn't find another.


You are too focussed on old-Frisian.
The language of OLB is way older than old-Frisian.
It is as much old-English (as Puzzler said before), old-German, old-Scandinavian, old-Dutch, etcetera.

*** Posted 08.10.10 - 08:46 PM
Abramelin, 08.10.10 - 05:06 PM
I forgot to add that 'Oera Linda' or in modern Dutch 'Over de Linden' is a family name. So the "Oera Linda Book" is a family chronicle.

Genealogy fragment Over de Linden (Oera Linda) family

Jan OL (ca.1717-?) X1745 Janke Hansen vd Woud

BRANCH 1 - CARPENTERS, SHIP BUILDERS
~Andries OL (1758-1820) X IJfje Schols
~ Jan OL (ca.1780-?) X1806 Antje Goedmaat
~ Cornelis OL (1811-1874)

BRANCH 2 - BOOK PRINTERS AND PUBLISHERS
~ Jan OL (ca.1750-?) X Willemina ten Beest
~ Jan OL (1776-1858) X1802 Johanna Blikkenhorst (1776-1849)
~ Willem OL (1813-?) X1839 Jacoba Neever

*** Posted 09.10.10 - 09:22 PM
FYI: I mailed Jensma yesterday asking if he had a reason to believe that Ottema changed his mind about OLB being true before he died.

Having read the first chapter of "Survivors" (I love it Alewyn, but Sandbach´s english translation begs to be improved), I think I know one of the reasons why there is so much resistance to OLB in Holland, and what could be a political reason to ignore, ridicule and suppress it.

(Partly subconscious?) FEAR for FLOODS, as a substantial part of the Netherlands lies below sealevel.
people don´t want to be reminded of what is hidden deep down their cultural (and genetic?) memory. Imagine what would happen to the value of real estate if people became more consciously aware of the danger.

*** Posted 10.10.10 - 06:44 AM
Abramelin, 09.10.10 - 09:35 PM
Don't you think the Dutch and/or Frisians would love to believe they were the creators of some grand European culture that influenced the more known ancient cultures, like the Greek, Egyptian, Hebrew, and the Indian cultures?

But they might also want to break free again...
It took our authorities hundreds of years to enslave us.

I find a theory of conspiracy by the authorities to suppress OLB (to protect law and order) more credible than a theory about a few 19th century geniuses having created it and dozens of people having lied about it (sometimes under oath).

I´m not talking about people at the base of the pyramid (the masses), but the few most powerful ones at the top, who profit most of the work of all others under them.

*** Posted 10.10.10 - 07:56 AM Abramelin, 09.08.10 - 01:38 PM
You may have thought the OLB was 'Aryan propaganda', but it never was.
Sure, it was used for that purpose by the later Nazis, but it wasn't written for that purpose.


Abramelin, 20.08.10 - 04:33 PM
And no, the writers were not out to give us an 'Aryanist' view, that was the view of the Nazis, almost a century later, like Himmler, who loved the OLB, as the fat freakish pervert that he was.

OLB was translated in German in 1933 by H.Wirth and created a hype and yes, Himmler liked it. But this was only shortly, because...

On may 5, 1934 it was already publicly rejected and ridiculed at the university of Berlin by 4 germanists/ historians in front of an audience of thousands. (Source: Jensma "Gemaskerde God" and Dutch OLB wiki page.)

Obviously, OLB would not have supported the plan of the Nazis to start war and take away people´s freedom.

TEX FRYAS page 12/13 (free improvised translations by me)

7) Anyone who robs another of his/her freedom ... burn his body and that of his mother and bury the ashes 50 feet deep.

8) Don´t start wars with Lyda´s nor Finda´s folk, because the violence that comes out of you will come back onto your own head.

*** Posted 11.10.10 - 06:06 PM
Abramelin, 11.10.10 - 03:03 PM
Come on, a historian like Jensma, a university professor, spent 10 years of his life studying the OLB and published a book about it. Is he in jail now for stirring up things??

You don´t get it.

His work was heavily subsidised to make the masses believe OLB is just a hoax, something they don´t need to think about.

People like you prefer to keep believing the propaganda (history of our fatherland) they learnt at school.

*** Posted 13.10.10 - 09:54 AM
Alewyn, 13.10.10 - 07:53 AM
I just do not see any benefits in debating with people who are so cemented into an opinion that they have lost all sense of logic, analytical and lateral thinking and deductive reasoning.
This was exactly the same mentality that got people burned at the stakes for not admitting that the earth was flat nor the centre of the universe.


FYI: I spent all yesterday in the archive that houses the OLB and a lot of publications and documents about it (Tresoar in Leeuwarden). Made some interesting copies.
I´m at chapter 5 of "Survivors" and love it.

One thing I´d like to share already;

Jensma about his thesis on OLB in Volkrant interview 23-12-2004 by Jan Blokker:

"Hier is inderdaad geen juridisch bewijs geleverd, maar -hopelijk op een voor de lezer en de toekomstige onderzoeker bevredigende manier- een hypothese getoetst."

-> He admitted that his thesis did not prove anything, that it´s only a tested hypothesis.

*** Posted 13.10.10 - 01:32 PM
Otharus, 12.10.10 - 07:08 AM
That is not true, I just said it begs for improvement. So do the translations by Ottema and Jensma in my opinion. (the others I don´t know)

An example to clarify
OLB page 6; FORMA SKÉDNISE or "Survivors of the Great Tsunami" p. 312; Chapter II, pt.10/11:


RING AS HJA RIP WÉRON
KRÉION HJA FRÜCHDA ÀND NOCHTA ANDA DRÁMA.
WR.ALDA.S OD TRÀD TO RA BINNA

Note that there is a point (.) between "DRÁMA" and "WR.ALDA.S" and that there is no point between "WR.ALDA.S" and "OD".

The translations:

Ottema 1876 (dutch):
Zoodra zij volwassen waren,
kregen zij vermaak en genoegen in de droomen
van Wralda. Haat trad tot haar binnen

Sandbach 1876 (english):
As soon as they were full grown
they took pleasure and delight in the visions
of Wr-alda. Hatred found its way among them

Wirth 1933 (german):
(He just left out "RING ... DRAMA"!!!)
Od (Gottes Odem) trat zu ihnen ein

Overwijn 1941 (dutch):
Zodra zij volwassen waren,
kregen zij vreugde en genoegen in de dromen
van Wralda. Geneugte kwam tot haar

Jensma 1992 (dutch):
Zodra zij volwassen waren,
kregen ze vreugde en plezier in de dromen
van Wralda. Een spits trad in hun binnen

Snyman 1998 (afrikaans):
En toe hulle volgroeid was,
het hulle vreugde en genoegdoening geput uit die visioene
van Wralda. Haat het (egter) hulle harte binnegedring.

Jensma 2006 (dutch):
Zo rap als ze rijp waren,
kregen ze vreugde en genoten in Wralda's extase.
Gelukzaligheid trad tot hen binnen

de Heer 2008 (dutch):
Zodra zij rijp waren
kregen zij vreugde en genoegen en dromen.
Wralda's licht trad bij hen binnen

Note that de Heer is the first to correctly put the point between "dromen" and "Wralda´s".

Overview of the various translations of "OD":
Haat; Hatred (Ottema 1876, Sandbach 1876, Snyman 1998)
Gottes Odem; God´s breath (Wirth 1933)
Geneugte; pleasure (Overwijn 1941)
Een spits; a phallic object (Jensma 1992)
Gelukzaligheid; bliss (Jensma 2006)
Licht; light (de Heer 2008)

DISCUSSION

Ottema must have thought of the Latin word "ODIUM" (meaning hatred) when he translated OD.

Od/ Odr is a Nordic root word meaning spirit, but in mythology is also the name of Freya´s lover or husband.

If I remember well, "ad" or "ath" is a root word meaning: branch of a (family) tree.

Logically, "od" might also have meant penis, semen or DNA, because after "od" penetrated the three young women, they became pregnant... It was probably an ambiguous, poetic word.

In my opinion it makes a huge difference if a creation myth says that our oldest ancestors were born out of hatred, or out of something more natural and hopefully even loving.

I´m not trained to be a translator, but if you´d ask me, I would improvise this:

Soon as they were ripe, they begot dreams of ´fruits and nuts´ (fertility, procreation).
Wralda's rod penetrated them

*** Posted 14.10.10 - 05:49 AM
Otharus, 13.10.10 - 01:32 PM
WR.ALDA.S OD TRAD TO RA BINNA
Wralda's rod penetrated them


On second thoughts, I would not try to translate "OD", but rather place a footnote.

Wralda's od penetrated them

Nowhere in literature about OLB have I found the following, which I think is rather interesting:

The Odic force (also called Od [õd], Odyle, Önd, Odes, Odylic, Odyllic, or Odems) is the name given in the mid-19th century to a hypothetical vital energy or life force by Baron Carl von Reichenbach.

*** Posted 14.10.10 - 04:49 PM
Otharus, 13.10.10 - 09:54 AM
Jensma about his thesis on OLB in Volkrant interview 23-12-2004 by Jan Blokker:
"Hier is inderdaad geen juridisch bewijs geleverd, maar -hopelijk op een voor de lezer en de toekomstige onderzoeker bevredigende manier- een hypothese getoetst."
=> He admitted that his thesis did not prove anything, that it´s only a tested hypothesis.


Goffe Th. Jensma wrote a thesis about the OLB and is generally accepted to be the 'official authority' on the subject.
He is now professor of Frisian language and literature at the University of Groningen.

I studied all of his publications without prejudice, but while reading I came to the conclusion that he must be wrong.
I promise to prove this in good time, but for now here are some interesting facts.

1. With his research he did not confer a doctor's degree on history or old language, but in theology.
2. Of the 11 theses that he defended to get his promotion, only 3 are related to the subject of OLB. (and they are weak; see below)
3. Whether the OLB is (partly) a genuine source or not was not one of his research questions, the focus was on who could have made it up and why.
4. At a public discussion on the occasion of his promotion, none of the speakers agreed with his conclusion that François Haverschmidt must have been the genius behind OLB. (see below)

ad 2
Three theses from Jensma's doctorate, related to OLB (translated by me):
2) François Haverschmidt was the genius behind OLB.
3) It is remarkable, incredible and a scientific omission that even in the most scientific literature on the OLB the literary structure of the book was only sideways addressed.
4) It is not unthinkable that Verwijs and Haverschmidt have corrected Ottema's edition and translation of the OLB.

ad 4
Source: Leeuwarder Courant, Friday 10 December 2004
Dutch title of article: "Van het Oera Linda-boek, de Friese kip en de zeespiegel"

Translation of relevant fragment (by me):
"Although the speakers without exception praised Jensma's work, he had not been able to convince any of them of his truth that François Haverschmidt is the main author of the OLB."

Original fragment in Dutch:
"Hoewel de sprekers zonder uitzondering vol lof waren over het werk van Jensma, had hij niemand kunnen overtuigen van zijn waarheid dat François Haverschmidt de belangrijkste auteur van het Oera Linda-boek is."

*** Posted 15.10.10 - 09:29 AM
Abramelin, 21.08.10 - 04:36 PM
a critical review (in 1876) of the OLB by a J. Beckering Vinckers completely burnt the OLB down to sinders.

Some quotes from J. Beckering Vinckers' (1876) 'critical review' (my translation).

Title:
"The falseness of the Oera Linda-Bôk, as proven by the the gibberish in which it was written"

"Gibberish, no better than Negro-English; gibberish, that makes the OLB a mark of infamy in the collection of most illustrous remains of old-frisian language."

"Another example of a clownish anachronism. But why do I say 'another anachronism', - the whole OLB is one single colossal anachronism from beginning to end, which for example is revealed in its long train of words, that only slowly emerged in the French and Dutch language in the Middle ages as degenerated Latin. Behold a mess, susceptible for expansion."

"I have reached my goal; I aimed at ridiculing the language of the OLB."

"But that some Frisian scholars in the year of our Lord 1876 ... are still so ignorant of the grammar of precious literary remains of Frisian antiquity, that they accept a repulsive linguistic botch job like the OLB, after long term study, to be a true remains of overold Frisian, that they indeed, declare the barbaric gibberish in which it was written to be more old and pure than the flawless language of the Oldfrisian certificates, that is indeed an utterly deplorable phenomenon."

DISCUSSION
One of the worst misconceptions about the OLB is, that the language should be studied as being old-Frisian, for it is as much old-Swedish, old-German, old-English and old-Dutch (which is actually old-Westfrisian...).

Original quotes in Dutch:

"De onechtheid van het Oera Linda-Bôk, aangetoond uit de wartaal waarin het geschreven is"

"een wartaal, geen haar beter dan Neger-Engelsch; een wartaal, die het O.-L.-B. maakt tot een schandvlek in de rij der hoogst gewigtige overblijfselen van O.friesche taal."

"Dit is dus weer een potsierlijk anachronisme. Doch wat praat ik van ‘weer een anachronisme,’ - het geheele O.-L.-B. is van 't begin tot het einde één enkel kolossaal anachronisme, dat zich onder anderen ook openbaart in dien langen sleep van woorden, welken we eerst in de middeleeuwen langzamerhand door verbastering van 't Latijn in den mond van Franschman of Nederlander in de wereld zien komen. Zie hier een zootje, dat voor veel vermeerdering vatbaar is."

"Het doel dat ik mij voorstelde is bereikt; ik heb de taal van het Oera-Linda-Boek belagchelijk willen maken."

"Maar dat Friesche geleerden in den jare onzes Heeren 1876 ... nog zulke vreemdelingen in de grammatica van de kostbare letterkundige overblijfsels der Friesche oudheid zijn, dat zij een afschuwelijk taalkundig knoeiwerk als het Oera-Linda-boek, na langdurige studie, voor een echt gedenkstuk van overoud Friesch hebben aangezien, ja, de barbaarsche wartaal waarin het is geschreven voor ouder en zuiverder verklaren dan de zoo zuivere taal der Oudfriesche oorkonden, dat is inderdaad een zeer betreurenswaardig verschijnsel."

*** Posted 15.10.10 - 10:41 AM
Alewyn, 26.08.10 - 01:06 PM
Did Ottema leave a note or told somebody that he was disillusioned because he wasted years on a hoax or is this just another groundless theory?

Indeed this theory is based on quicksand and it illustrates the way in which Jensma produces pseudohistory out of gossip, as can be concluded from the two fragments below.

Logically, if it was known at that time that Ottema had changed his mind about OLB before he died (in 1879!), this would have been big news, but there are no sources to confirm this. Therefore it remains a speculation, based on gossip.

The first source in which it is mentioned, 125 years later, is "De Gemaskerde God" (2004), Jensma's thesis that earned him the doctor's title:

"According to some, Ottema eventually had to admit that he had been wrong and that he had lost his honour as a classical scholar. He could no longer live with that truth and hanged himself.

FOOTNOTE:
Information from both A. Lysen, Santpoort, and from retired professor P. Gerbenzon, who were both -in different ways- well informed in the circles of notables in Leeuwarden."

In the second source "Het Oera Linda-boek" (2006), Jensma presents this gossip as if it were a fact:

"When Ottema, abandoned by all, in 1879 finally accepted that he was wrong and that he had considered something to be ancient that was actually modern, he decided that it made no sense to live on, and hung himself."

Original sources, Dutch:

"De Gemaskerde God" Blz. 214
"Volgens sommigen heeft Ottema uiteindelijk toch ingezien, dat hij had gedwaald en dat hij zijn eer als classicus had verspeeld. Met die waarheid heeft hij niet verder willen leven. Hij hing zich op."

VOETNOOT (blz. 411)
"Mededeling zowel van de kant van A. Lysen te Santpoort, als van P. Gerbenzon, die beiden op verschillende wijze goed ingevoerd waren in de kringen van Leeuwarder notabelen."

"Het Oera Linda-boek" Blz. 50
"Toen Ottema, door iedereen in de steek gelaten, in 1879 uiteindelijk inzag dat hij ongelijk had gehad en dat hij voor oud had versleten wat eigentijds was, besloot hij dat het geen zin had om nog verder te leven en verhing hij zich."

*** Posted 15.10.10 - 11:04 AM
Alewyn, 26.08.10 - 01:06 PM
Why don't they do a forensic analysis on the paper and ink?
That would settle the matter for once and for all;
or is somebody afraid of the truth?


Yesterday I asked Dr Jacob van Sluis, specialist at Tresoar, the library that houses OLB:

"Is there a survey of the scientific research that was done to establish the age of the paper and are reports of this research available?"

His answer:
"Recently a thorough examination was done of paper, ink etc. of OLB. The results have been collected, but are not published yet. That is ment to happen, but Tresoar is only sideways involved. So I cannot promise anything. I only know that the publication is 'in the pipeline'."

Original in dutch:

vraag 14-10-2010:
"Is er een overzicht beschikbaar van het wetenschappelijk onderzoek dat is verricht naar de ouderdom van het papier en zijn hiervan verslagen beschikbaar?"

antwoord 14-10-2010:
"Er is recentelijk grondig onderzoek gedaan naar het papier, inkt e.d. van het OLB. De resultaten daarvan zijn verzameld, maar nog niet gepubliceerd. Dat is wel de bedoeling, maar Tresoar is daar slechts zijdelings bij betrokken. Ik kan u dus niets beloven. Ik weet alleen dat de beoogde bundel "in de pijplijn" zit."

*** Posted 16.10.10 - 08:36 PM

Why is the 'Oera Linda Book' so dispised, hated, feared and/ or misunderstood in Holland?

For a better understanding of the controversy I will translate and post a few more fragments of publications.

The following is taken from:

The Oera-Linda-Book in Germany and here
published by Dr. M. de Jong in 1939.

“When we don't limit our view to the controversies that kept us busy here in Holland, we must admit, that the OLB begot a significance because of the war in Germany, that no one ever could have dreamt of. In the spiritual revolution, that occurred there in the last decennia and is still unfolding, it played an important role. The OLB has been the highlight of passionate discussions about national-socialist principles and philosophy. A model for living and history, women’s place in society, democracy and authority, pacifism, the Slavic East front, racial theory and the Nordic race, even the Jewish question, were discussed. It’s a remarkable fact, that the OLB seems to appeal to profound feelings, that the German people have developped in their fight against alien influences and in favour of their own Germanic culture. Science had already succesfully resisted against the Christian-Latin historiographic image of old-Germanic civilisation’s inferiority and of the blessings brought to the supposed barbarians by the Romans and the Roman Catholic church. The aureole of great-christener Charles “the Great” faded away. People hoped to find traces of their own old civilisation, their own spiritual heritage, even an original Nordic monotheism.
This now, many believed to find, in the footsteps of Herman Wirth, together with lots of other ancestrial heritage, in the OLB, specifically in the so-called Wralda-mysticism.”

original dutch text:
Het Oera-Linda-Boek in Duitschland en hier
“Wanneer wij onzen gezichtskring niet beperken tot de strijd-vragen, die ons hier in Nederland bezig gehouden hebben, dan zullen we moeten erkennen, dat het oera-Linda-Boek door den strijd in Duitschland een beteekenis heeft gekregen, waarvan niemand ooit had kunnen droomen. In de geestesrevolutie, die daar in de laatste tientallen jaren heeft plaats gehad en nog steeds bezig is zich te voltrekken, heeft het een niet onbelangrijke rol gespeeld. In bewogen discussies over nationaal-socialistische beginselen en nationaal-socialistische levenshouding is het O.L.B. pièce de résistance geweest. Levens- en geschiedbeschouwing, de plaats van de vrouw in de samenleving, democratie en leiders-principe, pacifisme, het Slavische oostfront, rassenleer en het Noordsche ras, ja ook het Jodenvraagstuk, zijn daarbij aan de orde geweest. Het is een merkwaardig feit, dat het O.L.B. schijnt te appeleeren aan zeer krachtige gevoelens, die zich bij het Duitsche volk ontwikkeld hebben in zijn strijd tegen vreemde invloeden en voor een eigen Germaansche cultuur. Niet zonder succes had de wetenschap zich reeds eerder verzet tegen de door een Christelijk-Latijnsche geschiedschrijving opgedrongen voorstellingen van de minderwaardigheid der oud-Germaansche beschaving en de zegeningen, door de Romeinen en de Roomsche kerk aan vermeende barbaren gebracht. Het aureool van den groot-kerstenaar Karel “den Grooten” verbleekte. Men zocht naar kernen van eigen oude beschaving, naar een eigen geestelijk erfdeel, zelfs naar een oorspronkelijk Noordsch monotheïsme.
Dit nu meenden velen, op het voetspoor van Herman Wirth, met zooveel ander voorvaderlijk erfgoed, in het Oera-Linda-Boek te vinden, en wel in de zoogenaamde Wralda-mystiek.”

*** Posted 17.10.10 - 10:52 PM
Abramelin, 16.10.10 - 08:57 PM
Can you tell us more about this date that was supposed to be copied from those almanacs?

This must have been the "Enkhuizer Almanak".

Good idea, I'll look it up one of these days in the Enkhuizer Almanak Museum.

Quote
The worst people in The Netherlands feel about the OLB is ridicule. And you know as well as I do that the OLB already received heavy criticism soon after it was published. It didn't just start during/ after WWII.

Yes, see my post 1325;

Beckering Vinckers (1876):
"I have reached my goal; I aimed at ridiculing the language of the OLB."

The sad thing is that he not only aggressively 'ridiculed' OLB but also translator/ publisher Ottema, who was practically excommunicated, got isolated, became paranoid and suicidal as a result.

Initially some proud influential Frisians seem to have felt insulted because their paradigm of Frisian history, culture, religion and language was challenged.
OLB language was too 'modern' for them; it had words that resembled Dutch and English.
It was not enough 'pure Frisian'. (possible explanation?)

WWII added a new dimension to the controversy for obvious reasons.

Two more fragments to illustrate how 'believers' were not only ridiculed (1972), but even discredited (2004).

S.J. van der Molen (1972)
"From time to time, the ever unknown author of this manuscript succeeds in troubling minds and making victims. The youngest victim (apparently not in years: the man already published in 1940) is dr. phil. Frans J. Los, who recently published: The Ura Linda Manuscripts as Source of History"

Original text, taken from "Doctor schiet Ura Linda-'bok'", published 11-11-1972 in Leeuwarder Courant
"Van tijd tot tijd slaagt de nog steeds onbekend gebleven maker van dit geschrift er in geesten te verwarren en slachtoffers te maken. Het jongste slachtoffer (kennelijk niet in jaren: de man publiceerde al in 1940) is dr. phil. Frans J. Los, die ... zojuist liet verschijnen: Die Ura Linda Handschriften als Geschichtsquelle"

Jensma (2004; page 17)
"This Ottema was followed by a long row of believers of suspicious character. Of them SS-Führer Heinrich Himmler is most notorious, but he was certainly not the only one. Theosophists, nazi's, New Agers and right extremists of various sorts explained and still explain this OLB as an authentic and important source for our knowledge of western civilisation."

Original text:
Deze Ottema kreeg een lange stoet van gelovigen van bedenkelijk allooi achter zich aan. De SS-Führer Heinrich Himmler is van hen de beruchtste, maar hij was zeker niet de enige. Theosofen, nazi's, New Agers en Nieuwe Rechtsen van allerlei pluimage verklaarden en verklaren dit Oera Linda-boek nog steeds voor een authentieke en belangrijke bron voor onze kennis van de westerse beschaving.

*** Posted 20.10.10 - 06:39 AM
Alewyn, 19.10.10 - 08:22 AM
It would realy be interesting to know what examination was done, by whom and exactly when. Was this examination done in secret or was it widely made known and unbiased? If it was found that the manuscript dates from the 19th century, then one would not expect a delay in publishing the results. The manuscript would in all probability then be a fraud - end of story. On the other hand, if the findings point to an old manuscript, quite a few reputations will be scarred. This could then be a reason for any delay such as there may be. (At this stage we have no evidence or reason to believe that this may be the case). To be credible, therefore, one would expect a very open process.

I will make further inquiries. (Or has one of you already done so?)

Even if paper and ink turn out to be new I will still consider it more credible to be a copy of (an) older source(s), than the result of a 19th century conspiracy.

Inspired by Alewyn's book - that I finished last week - I made a new video yesterday, presenting a theory that is dawning in me.

I know it may be a bit cryptic to some, but that is my style;
I like to leave some space for the imagination of the viewer.
And I will make improved versions later.

*** Posted 21.10.10 - 09:44 PM "The Frisii Minores lived west of Mare Flevum in what is now North-Holland and the Frisii Maiores lived in nowaday Friesland. These two are archeologically distinguishable by their own type of pottery that has been found between Low-Rhine and Oostergo."

From: "De Rand van het Rijk ~ De Romeinen en de Lage Landen" (The Romans and the Low Lands), page 109 (my translation).

Could it be that one of them (Maiores?) were from the group that had come back under guidance of Friso, while the other (Minores?) were original Fryas that had never left. (See "Survivors" chapter 7.)

This would explain why in the east they were already more used to having (male) kings, than in the west. And it would explain the difference between Old-Frisian and Old-'Dutch' (Westfrisian), as suggested in my video.

*** Posted 23.10.10 - 11:00 AM
Abramelin, 22.10.10 - 08:29 PM
The Germanic word Freisias (Frisians) comes from the Indo-European Preisios. Preisios is a derivation of the root-word prei-, which means: to love.

Note for those who don't know the Dutch language:

Vrijen still means: to make love  
Vrijer = lover  
Old spelling for lovemaking: Vryery

It's obvious to me why the Roman catholic empire desperately wanted to annihilate the Old (west) Frisian (Fryic, Fryish, Freeish) culture.

Quote
If I nit Frisian and Prussian together and shake it a bit, we get Phruisians.

(west) Frisians << (origin) Phruisians >> (east) Prusians


*** Posted 23.10.10 - 06:45 PM
Alewyn, 23.10.10 - 04:10 PM
The word “Frya” thus means “Free” or “Freedom”

My feeling is this:

FRY = free* (see below)
FRYA = free-one; someone who is free

FRYDOM
=> DOM we also find in the word DOMAR

OLB page 40;
VMBE SEEKUR TO WEESANDE SEND THESA SETMA AND DOMAR MAKAD

page 42;
THISSA DOMAR SEND MAKAD FARA NYDIGA MANISKA

page 43;
THIS SEND DOMAR FARA HORNINGA

DOMAR is translated by Jensma as "bepalingen",
Sandbach: "regulations".

DOMAR is plural so DOM would be singular (it's the same in Swedish).

The original meaning of FRYDOM does not have to be exactly the same as our "freedom".

* Two relevant phrases of OLB relating to FRY and FRYDOM:

1) page 10 (ODE TO FRYA)

THA HJA JEEROCH WRDON THA LEERDE HJU HJAM THJU WEERTHA FON THA FRYDOM KANNA.
HWAND SEEIDE HJU.
SVNDER FRYDOM SEND ALLE OTHERA DUUGEDON ALLEENA GOD VMBE JO TO SLAVONA TO MAKJANDE.

Sandbach:
"when they were grown she taught them the value of liberty;
for she said:
without liberty all other virtues serve to make you slaves"

In my opinion this does not really make sense.
I have the feeling that FRYDOM is not exactly the same as "liberty", nor of our nowaday "freedom".

Taking into account the ambiguity of the word FRY in modern languages, with many meanings relating to love, I would like to coin a theory that FRYDOM has something to do with what we would call (regulations about) sexual freedom or free love.

(This would also explain the religious fanaticism by which the Roman catholic empire has tried to annihilate the Fryish culture for almost 2000 years.)

2) Page 11 (TEX FRYAS)

THÉRA ALLÉNA MÉI IK AS FRY KANNA
THÉR NÉN SLAF IS FON EN OTHER
NI FON SINE TOCHTA

Sandbach's translation is not very accurate.

It says:

"him only can I recognise as free
who is neither a slave to another
nor to himself"

I don't like Jensma's translation either:

"die alleen kan ik als Fries kennen
die geen slaaf is van een ander
noch van zijn hartstochten"
=>
"him only can I recognise as Frisian
who is neither a slave to another
nor to his passions"

The Dutch word "hartstocht", meaning "passion" can be split in two:

harts- = of the heart
-tocht = ...

in modern Dutch we only know this word as meaning wind (in a house)

=> wind of the heart???

I have the feeling that the original meaning of "TOCHTA" is closer to the english "thoughts".

So my improvised translation would be:

"him/her only may I know as free
who is no slave of another
nor of his/her thoughts"

DISCUSSION

It makes a big difference if you are free of your thoughts (of the mind) or of your passion ('thoughts' of the heart).
In other words: Is someone who is free guided by the mind or by the heart (the feelings or the body)?

Depression is a worldwide epidemic nowadays.

Those people are slaves of their thoughts...

You are free when your mind and body agree.

*** Posted 23.10.10 - 10:31 PM
Alewyn, 23.10.10 - 08:43 PM
Remember they did not have contraceptives and somebody (men) would have had to take responsibility for taking care and providing for a family and especially the children.

Where did you read this?

*** Posted 24.10.10 - 07:34 AM
Alewyn, 23.10.10 - 08:43 PM
Otharis, If I understand you correctly, you are saying that the word Frya or Fryan People has something to do with "Free Love" rather than "Freedom"?

No, I said:

FRY = free
FRYA = free-one; someone who is free

...and to be more clear I would add that FRYA was also the name of the first mother.

FRYAS is short for FRYA.S.BARN = children (or people) of FRYA

FRYDOM = FRY-DOM;

Dom (plural domar) is still a word in Swedish, meaning: judgement, opinion (oordeel, vonnis, uitspraak).

So "frydom" would be something like the definition of being free. I will think of a better translation.

And I did not mean the sort of "free love" that was experimented with by hippies in the late sixties/ early seventies.

More that it was free of feelings of guilt or shame, like introduced with the Adam & Eve myth.

Archaeology from Greece and India has many examples of sexually explicit artwork, even on temples.

Quote
Throughout the Oera Linda Book we see that the people of Frya were a very pious lot

In my dictionary (van Dale 1986), the second meaning of "pious" is hypocrite...

Quote
1. Their young men had to be married by the age of 25 or they were bannished from society (to protect the girls and women).
2. Any act of fornication was severely dealt with and the perpetrators were sent to the penal colony in Britain.
3. Any person who had a relationship or wanted to marry a foreigner were bannished for life. etc.


I agree that they had rules and ethics, but when it comes to relationships between the sexes, they may very well have been different from the judeo-christian tradition that we know (as well as other known matriatrchal cultures).

Chapter I,
line 23-27 show that all BURGFAMNA had a man:

ADELA - APOL
SYTJA - STORO
JALTJA - ABEELO
DYWER - E.NOCH
DUN.ROS - FOPPO

So it was normal that Burgfamna had a partner.
The (Federal) Mother was chosen out of the burgfamna and apparently had to leave her man.
We know that Adela had children and that she refused to become the new Mother because she wanted to stay with Apol
(chapter 1 line 3).

In the translations it says that she wanted to "marry" Apol.

The original text says:
THAT IK NEEN MODER NEESA NAVT NILDE
THRVCHDAM IK APOL TO MIN EENGA JEERDE

Does anyone claim to know what EENGA ment in those days?

Do you believe that, when she was elected to be Federal Mother, she was still a young virgin without partner or children?

This is just one example of the translation being a modern interpretation.
I will go through the relevant parts to show what the original text says when I have more time.

Quote
The OLB is very clear that "Frya" meant "freedom" or liberty i.e free from bondage or enslavement.

"FRYDOM" being their most important value, they must have had a different sort of "marriage" than that from the "pious" judeo-christian tradition.

*** Posted 24.10.10 - 10:12 AM
Otharus, 23.10.10 - 06:45 PM
SVNDER FRYDOM SEND ALLE OTHERA DÜGEDON ALLÉNA GOD VMBE JO TO SLAVONA TO MAKJANDE.

Sandbach:
"without liberty all other virtues serve to make you slaves"

In my opinion this does not really make sense.


Let me explain why this does not make sence.

If:
To make someone slave = to take away one's freedom.
and:
Liberty = freedom (or is there a difference?)
=>
the above sentence would say:

"without freedom all other virtues serve to take away your freedom"

How can anyone take away your freedom, if you don't have it?

*** Posted 25.10.10 - 08:32 AM
Alewyn, 25.10.10 - 07:54 AM
If this debate (and the silence) is anything to go by, The Dutch and the Frisians do not deserve the Oera Linda Book.

There is no such thing as "the" Dutch or "the" Frisians; people have always been coming and going.

The culture of the Netherlands suffers from what could be called multiple personality disorder or identity crisis.
(Doesn't the whole world?)

I guess that more than 95% of the population has never even heard of the OLB.

The manuscript should be studied by an international, intercultural, multidisciplinary group of researchers.

I hereby volunteer.

*** Posted 25.10.10 - 09:27 AM
Otharus, 21.10.10 - 09:44 PM
From: "De Rand van het Rijk ~ De Romeinen en de Lage Landen" (The Romans and the Low Lands)

Here's a scan from this book that fascinates me because of the way M and N are written (L COMINIVS), the outer lines not being vertical like in normal Roman script, but just like in the JOL-script.
I know it's not hard evidence, but thought some of you might like it anyway.

*** Posted 25.10.10 - 01:31 PM Abramelin, 16.10.10 - 08:57 PM
Can you tell us more about this date that was supposed to be copied from those almanacs?

"FRIESCHE VOLKS-ALMANAK 1846" (published by van Druten & Bleeker, Sneek)

1846 Het jaar na de geboorte onzes Heeren J.C.
7354 Grieksche Jaartelling => started 5508 BC
5795 Wereldschepping, naar onze tijdrekening
5607 Jaar der Joden, beginnende den 30 September => started 3761 BC
4039 Sedert den Zondvloed => started 2193 BC
6559 De Juliaansche Periode => started 4713 BC
2599 De stichting van Rome => started 753 BC
1262 Jaar der Turken, beginnende den 7 april
1771 De verwoesting van Jeruzalem
-850 Na de uitvinding der Uurwerken
-656 Na de stichting der stad Leeuwarden
-586 Na de uitvinding van het Kompas
-423 Na de uitvinding van de Boekdrukkunst
-329 Sedert de Hervorming
-267 Sedert de Unie van Utrecht
-270 Na de Pacificatie van Gent
-264 Invoering van den Gregoriaanschen of nieuwen stijl
-198 Na den Munsterschen Vrede
--62 Na de oprigting d. Maatsch.:tot nut v.'t Algemeen
--36 Na de vereeniging van Nederland met Frankrijk
--33 Na de herstelling der Nederlanden
--31 Na den slag bij Waterloo
--30 Het Koningrijk der Nederlanden
--16 Na den afval van België

*** Posted 25.10.10 - 02:06 PM
Abramelin, 25.10.10 - 01:42 PM
So here we have the source for that date of 2193 BC.

It does not prove anything because it could as well be the other way around.

At least it shows how the 19th century Frisians seem to have been obsessed with year-counting.

Here's the list of one from (the traditionally more catholic) Amsterdam (1691), in which the year does not show:

"Comptoir Almanach"
(published by Johannes Stichter t'Amsterdam)
1691 op 't Jaer nae de Geboorte van onzen Heere en Zalighmaker Jesu Christi
5640 na de Scheppinge der Werelt => started 3949 BC
--43 na 't sluyten van de Spaanse Vrede
--41 na de geboorte van Prins Willem III, Prins van Oranje

*** Posted 25.10.10 - 02:28 PM
Abramelin, 25.10.10 - 02:16 PM
Whatever book you read, or whatever site on the web, you will always read how they came to that date.

People who claim this never provide proof.

Quote
Does the Enkhuizer Almanac say it got the date from the Oera Linda Book??

This was not an Enkhuizer, but a Frisian almanak.

Those almanaks never mention sources for anything.

It would have been a secret source anyway, because for hundreds of years whole families would be killed if they were caught hiding a heretic document or book.

*** Posted 25.10.10 - 04:04 PM
Abramelin, 25.10.10 - 02:33 PM
And these are just a few examples of people explaining how they come to their date for the Flood.

Ah, a misunderstanding;
I thought you ment sources that claim those almanacs were the source for the supposed composers of the OLB.

*** Posted 25.10.10 - 04:27 PM
Alewyn, 25.10.10 - 03:27 PM
The evidence I gave in posts 1361 & 1369 shows unquestionably that the “Middel Sea” is the Mediterranean and the “Balda Sea” is the Baltic. Any rational person will agree to this.

For the record: I agree.

I find the idea that the Middle Sea would refer to some lake in Friesland too ridiculous to even waste my time with. Sorry Abram.

Quote
How on earth then can anybody say that their Eastern Boundary was the Baltic?

I agree this being ridiculous too.

*** Posted 25.10.10 - 04:52 PM
Otharus, 25.10.10 - 04:27 PM
I find the idea that the Middle Sea would refer to some lake in Friesland too ridiculous to even waste my time with.

This is how Dr. Jensma, the OLB überskeptic translated it (2006), and what he says in footnotes about it (6-7):

"Bij morgen grensden wij aan het uiteinde van de Oosterzee (6), bij avond aan de Middellandse zee (7), zodat wij (behalve de kleine) wel twaalf grote, zoete loopstromen hadden..."

"(6) Oosterzee - De Oostzee
(7) Middellandse zee - OLBees MIDDEL.SE. Ook in het historische Westerlauwers Friesland bestond een 'Middelzee'. Hier wordt echter de Middellandse Zee bedoeld, die immers midden in het 'voorhistorische' rijk van de Friezen lag."

Translation of footnote 7:

"The historic Westerlauwers Friesland also knew a 'Middlesea'. But here the Mediterranean is ment, that was indeed in the centre of the 'prehistoric' Frisian empire"

*** Posted 25.10.10 - 05:49 PM
Alewyn, 25.10.10 - 03:27 PM
As for the Aster Sea, the OLB states very clearly:
...
How on earth then can anybody say that their Eastern Boundary was the Baltic?


But I don't believe it was the Black Sea either.

It must have been the sea east of the Baltic, what is now the gulf of Finland.

Apologies if someone already said this;

I have focussed on many things other than the geography of the Fryan Empire lately.

East; utter east of Gulf of Finland

West; utter west of Mediterranean

So basically the whole coastline from East Estonia to Southern Spain.
*** Posted 25.10.10 - 07:24 PM
Abramelin, 25.10.10 - 06:35 PM
..."Pillars of Hercules" (not those we all know about).

According to specialits Jona Lendering & Arjen Bosman, authors of "De Rand van het Rijk" (page 110), the location Tacitus wrote about, was located at the North Sea coast:

"De plaats waar het IJ door de duinen brak, ergens bij Castricum, kreeg van de Romeinen een ironische bijnaam: 'Zuilen van Hercules', een knipoogje naar de grenspalen die de halfgod had opgericht bij Gibraltar om monsterlijke schepsels weg te houden uit de beschaafde wereld."

translation:
"The place where the IJ broke through the dunes, somewhere near Castricum, the Romans ironically called 'Pillars of Hercules', referring to the border posts erected by the demigod at Gibraltar to keep monsterly creatures out of the civilised world"

Apperantly these 'pillars' were sometimes used as a metaphor, that may have been used for different places.

*** Posted 25.10.10 - 09:56 PM
Alewyn, 25.10.10 - 08:39 PM
How then do we explain
1. The 12 large rivers of Europe,
2. Italy (Heinde Krekaland),
3. Greece (Verre Krekaland), and
4. Switzerland?

The Oera Linda Book is quite clear that these were all part of "Frya's land" before 2193 BC, i.e. more than 4200 years ago.


3./4. In "ÉR THÉRE ARGE TID KÉM", OLB page 47-49 (chapter XXI "Boundaries" in "Survivors), 'Greece' and 'Switzerland' are not mentioned.

1. The 12 large rivers can be found between "the extremity of the Aster Sea" (UTER ENDE THES ASTER SÉ) and the "Middel Sea" (MIDDEL SEE).

I have never counted them, but on the sketch I posted a few hours ago, it looks like this could be right.

2. About 'Italy' it says:

BUTA AND BIHALVA
HÉDON VSA STJURAR AND KAPLJVD MENI LOGE
ANDA HÉIND KRÉKELANDA AND TO LYDJA

"Moreover,
our navigators and merchants had many factories
among the Heinde Krekalander and in Lydia."(Sandbach)

Jensma translated MENI LOGE as "algemene vergaderplaatsen"; "general meeting places".

That the FRYAS had places to gather there, does not mean the "Heinde Krekalander" were considered to be part of FRYASLAND. Same goes for the meeting places in Lydja.

*** Posted 26.10.10 - 11:09 AM
Alewyn, 25.10.10 - 03:27 PM
As for the Aster Sea, the OLB states very clearly:

1. They inhabited both banks and the full length of the Rhine river, i.e. right up to Switzerland,
2. Scandinavia was part of their country – they had a burghmaid in Gothahisburg (Gothenburg),
3. Spain (Cadiz) was part of their country – they had a burghmaid there,
4. They had factories in Italy,
5. Even Greece was part of their country before the 2193 BC disaster,
6. They had factories in North Africa,
7. They had a penal colony (and a burghmaid) in Britain, and
8. The 12 large rivers of Europe were all part of their land.

How on earth then can anybody say that their Eastern Boundary was the Baltic?


In Dutch, Baltic Sea = Oostzee

If the "eastern boundary" was the utter eastern shore of the East-sea; present day St. Petersburg, which is more east than Istanbul, all points 1 to 8 are irrelevant.

I'm working on the question which 12 large rivers might have been ment.
"Large" is relative and 12 was a symbolic number (2x6).

*** Posted 26.10.10 - 04:12 PM
Otharus, 26.10.10 - 11:09 AM
I'm working on the question which 12 large rivers might have been ment. "Large" is relative and 12 was a symbolic number (2x6).

Alewyn, 26.10.10 - 06:01 AM
The 12 large rivers of Europe are the following:

Tagus, Loire, Rhone, Po, Seine, Rhine, Elbe, Oder, Vistula, Dnieber Don and Danube.

The Danube, Dnieber and Don all flow into the Black Sea.


I don't know what Alewyn's source is or on what basis he has chosen these 12 (marked * below), but even if they nowadays are considered to be the 12 largest or most important rivers of Europe, is does not mean that they were the ones ment in OLB.

From "the extremity of the Aster Sea" (St.Petersburg) to (the beginning or most western part of) "the Middel Sea" (Gibraltar), the list below shows a few of the larger rivers.

The list is not complete, but has a few rivers that are larger than Po and Rhone from Alewyn's list.

Weser is mentioned in OLB and also did not show on his list.

1. Daugava (Riga, Latvia), 1020 km
2. Neman (Curonian Lagoon, Latvia), 937 km
3. Vistula (Danzig, Poland), 1070 km *
4. Oder (Stettin, Poland), 854 km *
5. Elbe (Hamburg, Germany), 1164 km *
6. Weser (Bremen, Germany), 452 km
7. Rhine (Leiden, Holland), 1233 km *
8. Meuse (Rotterdam, Holland) 925 km
9. Scheldt (Antwerpen, Belgium) 350 km
("has always had considerable commercial and strategic importance", Wikipedia)
10. Somme (Abbeville, France) 245 km
(? this is not a very long one, but would have been of strategic importance too)
11. Seine (Le Havre, France) 776 km *
12. Loire (Nantes, France) 1012 km *
13. Garonne (Bordeaux, France) 647 km
14. Douro (Porto, Portugal) 897 km
15. Tagus (Lisboa, Portugal) 1038 km *
16. Guadiana (Gulf of Cadiz, Spain/ Portugal) 744 km
17. Guadalquivir (Sevilla, Spain) 657 km

Leaving the following out, because they do not "show our seafaring men the way to his (Wralda's) sea":

Rhone (Mediterranean) 812 km *
Po (Adriatic) 652 km *
Dnieper (Black Sea) 2290 km *
Don (Black Sea) 1950 km *
Danube (Black Sea) 2829 km *

Quote
The Book of Adela's Followers:
Eastward our boundary went to the extremity of the Aster Sea, and westwards to the Middel Sea; so that besides the small rivers we had twelve large rivers given us by Wr-alda to keep our land moist, and to show our seafaring men the way to his sea.


The parts I have made bold suggest that the 12 rivers had to be between eastern East-Sea and Gibraltar.

Quote
Note that they say the banks of the 12 Rivers "were entirely inhabited by our people" i.e right up to the Black Sea. The banks of the Rhine from "one end to the other" i.e from Swizerland to the Netherlands. The Rhine starts in Switzerland.

Even today, the banks of any river are not "entirely inhabited" (thank God), so we must take this expression with a pinch of salt.
*** Posted 26.10.10 - 06:54 PM
Otharus, 26.10.10 - 04:12 PM
Weser is mentioned in OLB and also did not show on his list.

This inspired me to make an improvised list of Toponyms, mentioned in OLB, based on a list by Dr. Jan Ottema, transcribed by Mr. N. Luitse.
(accents on A and O were ignored)

AKEN - Aken (Aachen)
ALDERGAMUNDE - mouth of Flymeer, near Ouddorp
ALDLAND, ATLAND - Old Land
ALKMARUM - Alkmaar
ALMANLAND - Ameland
ALPA - Alps
ASTFLYLAND - (East-) Friesland (from Vlie to Eems)
ATHENIA - Athens
ATTIKA - Attika

BALDA SEE - Baltic Sea
BRITTANJA - Brittain
BUDA - Budapest

DEENEMARKA - Denmark
DOKHEEM - Dokkum

EGIPTALAND - Egypt
EGMVDA - Egmond
EMUDE - mouth of Eems; Embden
EUPHRAT - the Euphraat

FINDASLAND - Azië, Indië
FLY, FLYMARE - Vliemeer, Flevomeer; Zuiderzee
FLYBURCH - Burg near Cadzand
FLYLAND - Vlieland
FLYMUDA - mouth of Flie
FORANA - Vroonen/ Vronen (near nowaday Koedijk), destroyed 1297 by Holland army
FRYASBURCH - Den Burg (Texel)
FRYASLAND - Land of the Fryas

GERTMANNJA - East Friesland
GODAHISBURCH - Göteborg
GONGA, GONGGO - Ganges
GREENEEGA - Groningen

HALS - Holstein
HIMELLAJA - Himalaja
HRODUS - Rhodos

IRTHA - Earth

JOHNISEELANDA - Ionian Islands
JUTTARLAND - Jutland

KADIK - Cadix, Gades, Gadura, Gadeir
KALTABURCH - burg of Kalta
KASAMYR - Kashmir
KATSBURCH - Kat's burg
KATSGAT - Kattegat
KATTABURCH - Kattenburcht, Kassel
KEEREENAK - chosen corner in Brittain
KEEREHORNE - chosen corner
KREEKALAND - land of creeks (bays, coves, inlets, gulfs)
KREEKALAND HEINDE - Italy
KREEKALAND FERE - Greece
KREETA - Crete
KRYLWALD, KRYLINGER WALD - Kreiler Woud

LYDAHISLAND - Africa's north coast
LYDASBURCH - Leiden
LYDIA - Africa
LINDAWALD - so-called 'seven forests' in Drenthe
LINDAWRDA - Lindaoorden, at Linde between Boorn and Vecht
LINDAHEEM - sunken burg, between Kuinre, Urk and Schokland
LINDASBURCH - burg on the southpoint of Norway
LINDASNOSE - Cape Lindenaes (Norway)
LJUDBURCH, LJUDGARDE - burg at present Leeuwarden
LJUDWARDIA, LJUDWERD,
LJVWRD, Leeuwarden
LUMKAMAKJA - at the mouth of Eems (Delfzijl)

MANNAGARA FORDA - nowaday Munster (Westfalia)
MANNAGARDAWRDA - Munster
MEDEASBLIK - Medemblik
MIDDELSEE - Middellandse Zee (Mediterranean)
MISSELJA - Marseille

NY FRYASBURCH - Freiburg (Brisgau)
NY GEERTMANJA - harbor in Carmania
NORTHLAND - Norway

OVERA LINDA - over the lands at the river Linde

PALMLAND - Phenicië
PANGAB, PUNGAB - five waters, Indus, Punjab
PHONISIUSLAND - Phenicië

RADE SEE - Red Sea
RAWEREELANDA - robbers (Ionian) islands
REENE - river Rhine (pure, like rainwater)
ROME - Rome

SALAMIS - Salamis on Cyprus
SANDFAL - later Sinckfal
SAXAMARKA - land of the
Saxons, between Rhine and Eems
SEEJENE - river Seine (blessing)
SYDON - Sidon
SJVGON EELANDA - seven islands; Zeeland, from Rhine to Scheldt
SKELDA - river Schelde (Scheldt)
STAVJA - burg at Stavoren
STAVRE, STAVORA - Stavoren
STAVERENS OMMELANDER -
Gaasterland en Hemelumer oldephaart (?)
SUDAR FLYLANDA - South Vlieland
SVOBALAND - Swabenland (Schwabenland)

TEXLAND - Texel
THYRHISBURCH - Tyrus
TROJE - Troja (Troy)
TWISKLAND - 'in-between'-land; eastern Europe

UPSALANDA - nowaday Upland with city Uppsala

WALHALLAGARA - burg at Middelburg on Walcheren
WARABURCH - Burg near Hoorn (according to Jensma: Enkhuizen)
WEST FLYLAND - North- and South-holland down to Rhine
WYRINGGA - Wieringen Island
WRSARA - river Weser

Note:
Goffe Jensma did not include an index to the OLB, because this "would encourage a realistic reading attitude" (!).

"Een index op het boek zou deze realistische leeshouding slechts aanwakkeren en is om die reden niet opgenomen."
(Het Oera Linda-boek 2006, page 59)

*** Posted 26.10.10 - 10:03 PM
Puzzler, 26.10.10 - 05:44 PM
OK, so Britain is definitely Westland, ...

No. Original text (OLB page 48, 6th line):

TOJENST VR VS FORMÉLICH WEST.LAND
THÉR HÉDON WI BRITTANJA MITH SINA TIN.LÁNA.

The translation of Sandbach ("Survivors" page 335) is wrong: "Opposite to us we had Brittania,
formerly Westland, with her tin mines."

This should be: "Opposite to our former Westland,
we had Brittania with its tinlands."

In a footnote Jensma (2006) says about Westland (my translation): "Former Westland -apparently West-France or Bretagne, that was taken from the Frisians by the Kelts."

*** Posted 27.10.10 - 10:12 AM
Otharus, 26.10.10 - 04:12 PM
6. Weser (Bremen, Germany), 452 km
7. Rhine (Leiden, Holland), 1233 km


I missed one between Weser and Rhine:

- Ems/ Eems (Emden, Germany; EMUDE in OLB) 371 km

Not one of the longest but will have been important in Fryan times.

*** Posted 27.10.10 - 10:59 AM
SlimJ, 26.06.10 - 12:37 PM
The paper dated from 1865 but this does not outlaw the possibility of it being copied from an earlier text on my thinking.

This is not a fact as no research-results were ever published so far.

I have recently asked the expert of "Tresoar", the library that houses OLB; he tolded me something is 'on its way'.
My question who is leading the research was not answered yet.

I agree that even if paper and ink are proven to be from the 19th century, it's still possible that it's a copy of an older source, just like was proven to be the case with the Piri Reis maps, that contain information that is known now (the shores of Antactica under the ice), but was not known when the copy was made (16th century), other than from older sources.

In my perception it's more likely that the known OLB is a copy of an older source than the hoax (conspiracy) theory.

*** Posted 28.10.10 - 09:57 PM
Abramelin, 27.10.10 - 03:49 PM
Most people (and many non-Dutch writers) base their theories about the OLB on English translations like Sandbach's.

Before I'm going to leave the forum for a while (going to travel for a few months), I have one more example of inadequate English (Sandbach) translation, and hopefully it will encourage some of you to have a look at the original text as it is really not that difficult to understand, specially if you know a bit of German, Dutch, Afrikaans, Flemmish and/or Scandinavian.

I have chosen the beginning of the first text that Adela's followers copied to save it from oblivion.
("Survivors" page 312, original OLB page 6 or on Tresoar type: pagina "8" ga)

First translation is by Sandbach (1876), second is improvised by me.

THÀT WAS FRYA HIS DÉI
It was Frya's day,
It was Frya's day,

ÀND TO THÉRE STONDE WAS.T VRLÉDEN SJVGUN WÁRA SJVGUN JÉR.
and seven times seven years had elapsed
and at that time seven times seven years had passed

THAT FÀSTA WAS ANSTÀLD AS FOLK.MODER NÉI FRYA.S JÉRTA.
since Festa was appointed Volksmoeder by the desire of Frya.
since Festa was appointed Folkmother after Frya's heart.

THJU BURCH MÉDÉA.S.BLIK WAS RÉD
The citadel of Medeasblik was ready,
The burgh Medeasblik was ready,

ÀND EN FÁM WAS KÉREN.
and a Burgtmaagd was chosen.
and a Fam was chosen.

NW SKOLDE FÀSTA THJU NÉJA FODDIK VPSTÉKA
Festa was about to light her new lamp,
Now Festa should stick-up the new foddik,

ÀND THÁ THAT DÉN WAS AN ÀINWARDA FON THÀT FOLK
and when she had done so in the presence of all the people,
and when that was done in the presence of the folk,

THÁ HROP FRYA FON HIRA WÁK.STÀRE
Frya called from her watch-star,
Frya called from her wake-star,

SÁ THÀT ALLERA MANNALIK THÀT HÉRA MACHTE.
so that every one could hear it:
so that all people might hear it:

FÀSTA. NIM THINRA STIFTE ÀND WRYT THA THINGA
"Festa, take your style and write the things,
"Festa, take your style and write the things,

THÉR IK ÉR NAVT SEGSA NE MACHTE.
that I may not speak."
that I was not allowed to say earlier."

FÀSTA DÉDE ALSA HJA BODEN WÀRTH.
Festa did as she was bid,
Festa did as she was ordered,

SÁ SEND WY FRYA.S BÀRN.A VSA FORMA SKÉDNISE KÉMEN.
and thus we became Frya's children, and our earliest history began.
so we Frya's bern have recieved our first history.

Short interpretation/ food for discussion:
Note that Frya supposedly was not allowed to speak about it during her reign.
What was so taboo about the "Forma Skeednise"?
Festa/ Vesta wrote it down.
Did she make it up?
Did she 'channel' it as 'New-agers' would call it today?

This inspires me to make one critical note about Alewyn's book.
In his introduction he writes (p.16):

"Today it seems as if the book only has value for pagan and occult groups - in stark contrast to the intentions and beliefs of the original authors."

First, I doubt if it is true that mostly 'pagan and occult groups' are interested and wonder why he thinks this is so.

Second, a Folkmother hearing the voice of her dead predecessor and writing down what she is 'told', to me sounds like something that we would call an 'occult' practice.

Finally, for those who like maps, two goodies (scanned from "Graven van Holland" by de Boer and Cordfunke)
*** Posted 31.10.10 - 08:59 AM
Quote
One obvious reason not to believe it's authenticity is the paper.

The only known report of an examination was published in "Nederlandsche Spectator" #32 (5 August 1876).
The conclusions were debunked by Ottema in the second edition of his OLB translation in 1876.
Some years ago a new examination was started, but still no results have been published.
Therefore, it is still possible that the manuscript is what it claimns to be; a 13th century copy of a 9th century copy of an older original.

Quote
... if it would truly been deemed that important, it wouldn't have remained in private possession for such a long time and the story would have been at least as much copied and be at least as well known as Jewish mythology was.

Have you ever heard of the Inquisition?

Quote
... there would definitely have been people...
François HaverSchmidt definitely would have...


Jensma often uses terms like this too:

"undoubtedly",
"without the slightest doubt",
"there is no doubt possible"
etc.

Sure, he will have convinced many people who read the 'Leeuwarder Courant', but not many of his scientific colleagues. (See my post #1324.)
I have read OLB in the original language and all of Jensma's publications (as well as many other) and I am convinced he is wrong.

Quote
I haven't read Thet Oera Linda Bok...

See, this man bases his 'knowledge' on hearsay and (let me guess) the 'Leeuwarder Courant'.

Quote
... where it clearly goes wrong is when modern Frisian like inventions are used when the authors didn't know an Old Frisian word.

Did you know there's plenty of words that are still a mystery, even to Jensma? Others were much later explained because they have survived in other languages like Swedish.

Quote
... there are many other reasons to believe that Thet Oera Linda Bok is a forgery.

I will give you one:

Friesland traditionally is predominantly 'Dutch reformed' ('gereformeerd'; extreme protestant/ calvinistic).

Jensma's theory is that OLB was created to make fun of the Bible and the Christian religion in general.

His first publication (De Vrije Fries LXXII, 1992) about OLB with the title "Lees, leer en waak" (= Read, learn and watch out) starts with two quotes from the christian bible:

"For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect, if that were possible." Marc 13:22

"Be dressed ready for service and keep your lamps burning..." Luke 12:35

In Dutch:
"Want er zullen valse christussen en valse profeten opstaan en zij zullen tekenen en wonderen doen om, ware het mogelijk, de uitverkorenen te verleiden." Marcus 13:22
"Laten uwe lendenen omgord zijn en uw lampen brandende." Lucas 12:35

My theory is that many christian based Frisians have an aversion against OLB because they believe it's the work of the devil or the antichrist (as a matter speaking).

They basically fear OLB.

*** Posted 31.10.10 - 10:14 PM
Abramelin, 31.10.10 - 01:00 PM
An intermezzo:
Otharus, I have tried to respond to your pm for 3 times now, but everytime I get a "Server error 406". I hope you read the pdf about pagan beliefs in my respons to your post, the one you posted before you left for a few days ago. Also please read what I posted in this thread about Haverschmidt in connection with Ottema's 'suicide'.


Most appreciated, I'll dive into it later. Leaving next wednesday, spending most time getting last things organised. I'll PM my mailaddress.

*** Posted 02.11.10 - 04:48 PM
Puzzler, 02.11.10 - 08:53 AM
Maybe Ottema had other reasons for going suicidal.

Now that this subject is brought up again, I might as well share some translated exerpts from my recent correspondence with the 'official authority' prof. dr. G.Th. Jensma (Frisian language and literature) about Ottema's suicide.

This will really be my last substantial contibution to this forum for a while, as I'll fly to Cape Town tomorrow.

--------------------------
Oct. 8
Subject: "Het Oera Linda-boek" (2006)

Dear mr. Jensma,
In your book on page 50 you state that Ottema:
"... in 1879 finally realised that he had been wrong and that he had mistaken something contemporary for being old..."
Is this your assumption, or does a source exist to support this statement?

* * *
Oct. 15
Dear mr. Ott,
See my thesis from 2004, page 214 and 411.

* * *
Oct. 18
Dear mr. Jensma,
I must have ignored it earlier, and reconsidering it, I again conclude that your statement is not at all credible.

* * *
Oct. 18
Dear mr. Ott,
As you can see I got my information from two independant sources, so it can be considered to be verified.
I thought and still think this is sufficient to make a statement like that.
But apart from that, even if Ottema had not committed suicide, that still would not affect my conclusions concerning OLB.

* * *
Oct. 28
Subject: "Revision Ottema"

Dear mr. Jensma,
The question whether or not Ottema killed himself, is less relevant than if he changed his mind about the authenticity of the OLB.
Even more interesting I consider this case, as an example of how you have been selectively critical in your publications.
Statements by witnesses under oath, that are in conflict with your theory, you call "lies", while you present questionable data that support your ideas as if they were facts.
Your two 'independant sources' were Ad Lysen and Pieter Gerbenzon, born 1921 and 1920 respectively.
Ottema died in 1879.
So they could not have heard about the supposed motives of Ottema's suicide earlier than 60 years after he had died.
If this information has ever been trustworthy, would it not have been mentioned In earlier publications or correspondence?
In 2004 you wrote cautiously:
"According to some, Ottema finally realised he had been mistaken..."
In 2006 you were less modest:
"When Ottema in 1879 finally realised he had been mistaken..."
I consider this case as just one poignant example of your carelessness (and bias?).
It is imaginable that Ottema's frustration drove him to fatal despair.
It is less likely that -if he would have changed his mind- he would not have left a note about this.

* * * Nov. 2
Dear mr. Ott,
Concerning Gerbenzon and Lysen: indeed they lived much later than Ottema.
But they were wealthy people from Leeuwarden and Lysen was related to the Haverschmidt family and has known his daughter Margot.
I don't agree that people would write about suicide in the 19th century.
Besides, Ottema was considered to be a pathetic man, as can be concluded from letters that I did not quote in my book.
For example Hooft van Iddekinge to Dirks, 1876/11/08:
"That Ottema is degenerating makes me sad, and I wish that the Oeralinda-book, that indeed can impossibly be taken seriously, would give him less grief. His fate is similar to that of his ancestors, the contemporaries of Saint Boniface, who had to watch their idols being taken down. I can feel how painful that must be, but even more painful is it, in my opinion, when one persists in errors that go against the most common sense. Is it really that difficult for a sensible man to admit to have been mistaken and say "peccavi" (I have sinned), when perceviering becomes unreasonable?"
As for your other remarks, I think we can get into an endless discussion.
I definately don't agree that I have been careless.
On the contrary.

-------------------------- Last note by me:
My impression that religious motives played an important role is hereby confirmed and I agree that a discussion with Jensma about it would probably not lead anywhere.
It would be like talking with a member of the Flat Earth Society.
(He would feel the same.)
But I trust that someday the truth about OLB will prevail, whatever it is.

*** Posted 03.11.10 - 06:50 AM
Puzzler, 02.11.10 - 11:36 PM

Here's the thing, the book opens with a warning, do NOT ever let Monks see these writings, it underhandedly destroys us.

So, you find a manuscript and what's the first thing that happens, they show everyone.... then think about that, you have been warned not to show anyone for fear of the writings insinuating yourself and the book is about not listening to what they have been told and they lose everything..

Then you realise the book is saying, this info destroys us if the Church sees it. But you have shown everyone.... panic sets in, paranoia, you have shown everyone something you had been warned not to do...

By showing the work off he knew he may have been inadvertedly destroying his own people and ignored the warning given him.

That sort of guilt and paranoia about the consequences of others can be pretty harmful. Even though it might not appear as personal.

So, you then realise the impact this could have on your people and your country, you have in fact, done what the book told you NOT to do.

I think that stuffs with your mind.


*** Posted 10.11.10 - 04:00 PM There has been talk about how much of what is in OLB was already known to the 19th century elite.

I do not agree with Abram that they knew that much and certainly not "everything Puzzler posted"; what a nonsense. Also, it was said that other sources with the same script are needed to prove that OLB contains old information.

Script basically represents sound. For most of history and for most people there was no script, only oral tradition.

If we find words that are used in other cultures that sound similar and have similar meanings, and when these words were not known to the 19th century Dutch/ Frisian elite, this is most interesting and can help increase the credibility of OLB being a genuine source of old information.

In the following I'd like to introduce an example to the discussion.

Jensma (p. 92-93 of "De Gemaskerde God"):

WR.ALDA is the most explicit character in the whole OLB. His name, that is used 96 times, is a great find in itself. 'Wralda' is Oldfrisian for 'world', but the point in the word makes it possible to read the name as 'Oer.alda' - the 'over-old one', and possibly also as 'Oeral.da' - 'where-all there' (omnipresent).
(improvised translation by me)

(original text:)
WR.ALDA is het meest uitgewerkte personage uit het hele Oera Linda-boek. Zijn naam, die maar liefst 96 keer wordt genoemd, is op zichzelf al een vondst van formaat. 'Wralda is Oudfries voor 'wereld', maar de punt in het woord (in het OLBees staat WR.ALDA) maakt dat de naam ook kan worden gelezen als 'Oer.alda' - de 'oeroude', en mogelijk ook nog eens als 'Oeral.da' - 'Overal aanwezig'."

What Jensma did not know - or maybe he deliberately ignored it - is that varieties of the word Wralda exist in old Nordic archaeology, mythology, poetry in a similar context;
and it does not only mean world...

1. Frey or Freyr, the twin-brother of Freya (and associated with fertility) is refered to as "Veraldar God".

2. In old-Laplandic the term "Weralden Olma" refers to what we would call God or Allah.

3. The creation myth of the poetic Edda starts with "Ar Var Alda"; first was old-one (or big wave, see video).

(4. I even dare suggest an etymological relationship between 'Alda' and 'Allah', but I don't even need this here to make my point.)

Prof. Dr. H. Wirth mentioned 1. and 2. in a newspaper article in 1925 (Leeuwarder Courant 31 october) and added:

"... the Ingvaeonic name for God, Wralda, that was not known to science in the time that the manuscript supposedly would have been created, and partly still isn't!" (improvised translation by me)

original:
"... de Ingvaeonische naam voor God, Wralda, die in den tijd waarin het handschrift vervalscht zou moeten zijn, aan de wetenschap onbekend was en ten deele nog is!"

So if it takes almost 50 years for Dutch scholars to notice that Wralda does not only mean World, but in other old cultures was also used to refer to the oldest or most important deity or spirit, it is not likely that a few conspirors knew this and used it for their hoax.

I find it reveiling that even present day Frisian expert Jensma did not seem to know this when he wrote his publications (or he ignored it, which would be even more suspect).

As for the research of the age of paper and ink:

I received an answer from Tresoar that the Koninklijke Bibliotheek is doing the research.

It's not finished yet, I got a contact that I will mail to Alewyn, as I am travelling around, and don't know when I'll be online again.

***
Quote
Wirth was an idiot, even the Nazis found that out soon enough.

1) If "the Nazis" would have thought he was "an idiot", they would not have made him president of Ahnenerbe (even after his theories about OLB were rejected).

2) Nazi scientists publicly rejected OLB in 1934 because of political reasons as I have pointed out before.
Jensma explains this too in "De Gemaskerde God" (p.185-186).

(Note: contrary to what I wrote earlier Heinrich Himmler still believed in the authenticity of OLB during the war (DGG p.186).)

*** Posted 16.11.10 - 08:05 PM
Abramelin, 15.11.10 - 11:54 PM
Well, truth be told, I am now quite convinced I know who was behind the OLB: Joost Halbertsma.
...
Together with his work, and what I found out about Joost Halbertsma myself, I think I can safely say the case is closed.


Jensma (2004) p.189:
"J.G. van der Meij worked for many years on his Notes on the OLB and compared virtually all publications and even handwritings of Halbertsma with the OLB.
In my opinion he forgot to ask himself at least one important question: how exclusive are all similarities that he found?
With his method almost any frequent writer of the 19th century can be 'proven' to be the OLB author."
(improvised translation by me)

Also, there should have been a link between Halbertsma and de Over de Linden family, which would not have gone unnoticed.

Sorry Abramelin, nice try, but if it was that easy, Jensma would have written his thesis about this simple solution in stead of his complex Haverschmidt-Verwijs-Over de Linden conspiracy theory.

*** Posted 16.11.10 - 08:27 PM
Abramelin, 13.11.10 - 12:54 PM
* It was you who said that the OLB is being surpressed here in The Netherlands, but I have seen lists of publications in The Netherlands from the 19th to the 21th century that are quite huge; only the latest work on the OLB - Alewyn's book - has not been added to the lists yet.

The number of publications does not prove that it's not a taboo to believe the OLB is true as virtually all of them are attempts to prove it's a hoax and to ridicule anyone who even considers to take it seriously.

A historian of good reputation can loose all of his/her credibility if it becomes known that he/she even considers the possibility that OLB is true.

Note that even Jensma, who wrote his thesis about OLB did not even investigate the possibility that it could be real.

No academic 'of good name' will risk ending the same way as Ottema.

Remember:
Otharus, 17.10.10 - 10:52 PM
Beckering Vinckers' (1876): "I have reached my goal; I aimed at ridiculing the language of the OLB."

The sad thing is that he not only aggressively 'ridiculed' OLB but also translator/ publisher Ottema, who was practically excommunicated, got isolated, became paranoid and suicidal as a result.

Two more fragments to illustrate how 'believers' were not only ridiculed (1972), but even discredited (2004).

S.J. van der Molen (1972)
"From time to time, the ever unknown author of this manuscript succeeds in troubling minds and making victims. The youngest victim (apparently not in years: the man already published in 1940) is dr. phil. Frans J. Los, who recently published: The Ura Linda Manuscripts as Source of History"

Jensma (2004; page 17)
"This Ottema was followed by a long row of believers of suspicious character. Of them SS-Führer Heinrich Himmler is most notorious, but he was certainly not the only one. Theosophists, nazi's, New Agers and right extremists of various sorts explained and still explain this OLB as an authentiC and important source for our knowledge of western civilisation."


*** Posted 17.11.10 - 08:07 PM
Abramelin, 17.11.10 - 06:14 PM
No great buildings/ structures (like temples and citadels; not the megaliths. they were never even mentioned in the OLB) belonging to these cultures have ever been found. Just a thought..

Ever thought about wood?

There used to be lots more of it (in the 'Wooden Age') than nowadays and it burns quite well once set on fire by an enemy.

Do you know of Greek, Latin (or other ancient) sources that mention the megaliths?

Some more food for thought;

English, German, Dutch, Frisian, the Scandic languages, (and probably more that I'm not familiar with) clearly have a shared
'ancestor'; they stem from the same 'root'.

1) In 12 BC the Frisians saved a Roman fleet (from Drusus) when it had gotten in trouble in the Waddenzee.

2) The Frisians of that time were already known to have a varied agriculture and to trade on distant shores.

(De Rand van het Rijk ~ De Romeinen in de Lage Landen, p.109; chapter 6 Chauken en Friezen)

(BTW just started reading Rodinbook site; looks interesting.)

*** Posted 17.11.10 - 10:29 PM
A copy I made earlier from Wirth's Ura Linda Chronik (1933), for those interested.

Some Frisians must have had a special liking for the 'Jol' (wheel) shape, long before OLB was published.

*** Posted 17.11.10 - 10:44 PM
Abramelin, 17.11.10 - 09:23 PM
... but the OLB never mentioned megalithic structures, or how they contructed them.

Why do you think the Fryas constructed them?
Aren't the megaliths much older?

Quote
The Rodin site will be a lot more interesting after you read what the creator of that site added what I sent him.

I have read the whole site now but am far from impressed by the wafer-thin evidence.
Part of his theory is nonsense as I will show later when I have more time.

Did you send him anything you did not post here before?
I trust you'll let us know when it is added.

*** Posted 18.11.10 - 09:34 AM
Abramelin, 17.11.10 - 11:19 PM
The evidence is not wafer thin, it's huge. But it all depends on your 'belief'.

Indeed, I stick to my conclusion that it's flimsy.

Some early comments on www.rodinbook.nl (“Van Himmelum tot Himalaya”?) by Menno M.A. Knul;
a theory about the so-called Oera Linda Book (OLB).

The first sentence of the "Press Release" (Persbericht) already contains an untruth:

"That the Oera Linda Book is a mystification, was already proven in the 19th century, ..."

Is there any serious modern researcher that dares to reproduce the widely accepted 'proof' given in 1876 by J. Beckering Vinckers?

Knul claims to have proven that the Halbertsma brothers Eeltje (1797-1858) and Joost (1789-1869) created OLB.

His 'evidence' is flimsy though, some of it hilarious.

Example:
The names LIKO and HIDDO of the last two 'known' copyists of the manuscript would be a reference to one of the supposed
mystificators: Eeltje Hiddes Halbertsma.
OKKE would refer to the mysterious Ocko Scarlensis.
Even more hilarious is the suggestion that the name SYRHED would be a reference to “Sir Hettema”.
Why would there only be a hidden reference to Eeltje and not to Joost?
If it would be proven that Eeltje had written OLB, then LIKO and HIDDO might have been a reference, not the other way around.

Liko, Hidde and Okke are common Frisian names.

In the "press release" Knul presents the following as 'proof' that the Halbertsma's did it:

- Joost Halbertsma wrote an article about chronology, an important theme of OLB.

- J.H. wrote an article about old-Frisian and old-English, as well as an article about the etymology of "Sellemaand", an old name for february.

As 'proof', Knul presents a table with old English names of the months and 6 months that are mentioned in OLB.

Four of them are similar:

Wulfamonath/ wolfamonath,
solmonath/ sellamonath,
hrethmonath/ herdemonath,
windmonath/ winnemonath;

BUT TWO OF THEM ARE NOT:

thrimilce/ minnemonath,
weodmonath/ arnemonath.

So what does this prove?

- J.H. was mennonite and wrote a book about Buddhism.

Knul claims that OLB contains a passage "about the unknown years of Jesus Christ".

This is not correct, it is Knul's interpretation.

OLB, page 136-141 is about a character known as JES-US, FO, KRIS-EN and BUDA who lived around 600 BC.

Another possible interpretation is that the myths about the (supposed) historical Jesus of Nazareth are partly based on this
older 'Jesus'.

J. of N. will surely not have been the first with that name.

- J.H. published about traces of the Gothic language in Frisian.

According to Knul OLB was mostly written in Old-Rüstringian, an east-Frisian dialect.

- J.H. studied in Amsterdam from 1807 till 1813 and appreciated the language of commoners.

OLB contains a few words that are only known to have existed in the old-Amsterdam dialect (examples: Foddik and Faliekant).

Again, a totally different interpretation of this is also possible;

OLB is real because traces of its language can be found in various northern European dialects.

Also, the supposed role played by Cornelis over de Linden stays vague, but it's possible that “Van Himmelum tot Himalaya” (is this actually a published book?) gives some answers.

In summary:

The website www.rodinbook.nl is not at all convincing, it also looks like it's not finished yet (which would mean that the press release is premature).

So-called proof was selectively collected to support the Halbertsma's theory, not to test it.

Who is the author Menno Knul and (how) is his book available so it can be properly reviewed?

*** Posted 18.11.10 - 10:02 AM
Abramelin, 17.11.10 - 11:19 PM
For me the OLB is just some book, for many others it's what they have dreamt of for many years, and no horses will be able to drag them from the idea of it being a revelation.

1) I don't believe that for you "OLB is just some book".
Why would you spend so much time here if that was true?

2) Since I got to know about OLB (and read it in the original language; this was june/july 2009), I have tried to find proof
that OLB is indeed a mystification.
I cannot find it and am still open to any convincing evidence.
But the more I know, the more likely it seems to me that the unbelievable is true after all.

*** Posted 18.11.10 - 11:17 AM
Puzzler, 22.10.10 - 05:04 AM
I agree, Od is probably a life force...

On third thought...

Since OLB's "GOD" =
good (english),
goed (dutch),
gut (german),
god (swedish);
all virtually sounding the same,

and "HOD" =
hood (english),
hoed (dutch),
Hut (german);
again the same sound AND the same meaning,

"OD" may have survived in dutch as "oed" or "oet".

Now we happen to have this mysterious expression "oetlul", that no-one knows the etymology of (as far as I know).

"Lul" is slang for penis, but "Oet" is otherwise unknown.

The combination "oetlul" is used in Dutch as an invective, but in the context of OLB's creation myth it suddenly starts to make sense;

"Wralda's ood (dutch: oed or oet, german: Ut) penetrated them, and now they gave birth to 12 sons and 12 daughters, every Joltime twins." (OLB page 6)

*** Posted 21.11.10 - 05:50 PM
Flash, 21.11.10 - 04:17 PM
My guess: Connected with old worship (Gods) paganism and our modern sciences trying to understand nature more clearly.
Thus bringing about the movement away from monotheism. = Drive to understand ourselves.


Old 'paganist' ancestor worship, or worship of (the spirits of) long passed heroes and heroines (HELDEN),
who were, of course... GOOD = GOD.

('Spirit' = breath => inspiration = breathing in)

Understanding our roots and ancestors, understanding of where we are coming from, as a way of understanding ourselves.

*** Posted 23.11.10 - 06:16 PM
Abramelin, 23.11.10 - 05:46 PM
The only real proof would of course be a talk with Halbertsma, Haverschmidt, Verwijs and Over de Linden.

Why would they say something different from when they lived?

Quote
So we are now left with the many clues that all or some of them are the main suspects, or only one of them is the main suspect.

And even if you have a suspect, you don't have a case yet, until she's proven to be guilty.

Quote
I don't think it can be both ways: half truth, and half lie.
It was either created in the 19th century, or it was indeed what it was supposed to be:
an authentic ancient manuscript decribing an ancient civilization.


You missed it.
What I ment was that none of us can be 100% sure of either theory...
... until evidence is presented that the wisest of us can agree with.

*** Posted 24.11.10 - 08:04 AM  
If OLB would indeed be a (copy of a) 13th century copy of a 9th century copy of an older original, in other words, if the information of the OLB is indeed more than 1000 years old, the credibility of this information can still be debated:

Part of it may have been fiction (propaganda) when it was written.

*** Posted 26.11.10 - 10:47 
AM KÁT (OLB P.52-53)

KÁT JEFTA KÁTER-INNE ALSA HÉTE THJU FAM
Kát or Káterinne the Fam was called  
THÉR BURCH-FAM TO GODA-BURCH WAS.
that was Burchfam at Godaburch.  
KÁT WAS STOLTE ÀND HÁCH-FARANDE
Kát was proud and high-flying,  
THÉRVMBE NE LÉT HJU NÉN RÉD NI FOLLISTAR
therefore she would not ask advise or followers  
ANDA MODER NE FRÉIA.
from the Mother.

(P.54-55)  
WODIN WAS STERIK WOST ÀND WIGANDLIK
Wodin was strong, fierce and brave,  
MEN HI NAS NAVT KLÁR-SJANDE.
but he was not clearseeing.
THÉR THRVCH WÀRTH-I IN HJARA MÉRA FVNGEN
Through there he was caught in their lakes  
ÀND THRVCH THENE MÁGY KRONETH.
and crowned through the Magy.  
RJU FÉLO STJUR-AR ÀND LANDWÉRAR
Very many navigators and soldiers  
THAM THISSE KÉR NAVT NE SINDE,
that did not like this turn,  
BRUIDON STOLKES HINNE KÁT MITH NÉMANDE.
left silentlytaking Kát with them.  
MEN KÁT THÉR NAVT TOFARA THÉRE MODER
NER TOFARA THÉRE MÉNA ACHT FOR-SKINE NILDE,
But Kát who refused to appear before the Mother
nor before the general meeting,
JOMPADE WR BORD.
jumped over board.  
THA KÉM STORNE-WIND
Then came stormwind  
ÀND FÉTERE THA SKÉPA VPPA SKORRA FONNA DÉNE-MARKUM DEL
and drove the ships down up the shores of Deenemarkum  
SVNDER ENKEL MÀN TO MISTANE.
without missing a single man.  
ÀFTERNÉI HÀVON HJATHA STRÉT KÁT’S-GAT HÉTEN.
After that they have named the street Kátsgat.

*** Posted 26.11.10 - 11:01 AM
Otharus, 26.11.10 - 10:47 AM
KÁT
CHATTI

TACITVS - GERMANIA
(translation Church & Brodribb)

29

OMNIVM HARVM GENTIVM VIRTVTE PRAECIPVI
BATAVI NON MVLTVM EX RIPA,
ED INSVLAM RHENI AMNIS COLVNT,

Foremost among all these nations in valour,
the Batavi occupy an island within the Rhine
and but a small portion of the bank.

CHATTORVM QVONDAM POPVLVS
ET SEDITIONE DOMESTICA
IN EAS SEDES TRANSGRESSVS,
IN QVIBVS PARS ROMANI IMPERII FIERENT.

Formerly a tribe of the Chatti,
they were forced by internal dissension
to migrate to their present settlements
and there become a part of the Roman Empire.

MANET HONOS ET ANTIQVAE
SOSIETATIS INSIGNE;

They yet retain the honourable badge
of an ancient alliance;

NAM NAC TRIBVTIS CONTEMNVNTVR
NEC PVBLICANVS ATTERIT;

for they are not insulted by tribute,
nor ground down by the tax-gatherer.

EXEMPTI ONERIBVS ET CONLATIONIBVS
ET TANTVM IN VSVM PROELIORVM SEPOSITI,
VELVT TELA ATQVE ARMA,
BELLIS RESERVANTVR.

Free from the usual burdens and contributions,
and set apart for fighting purposes,
like a magazine of arms,
we reserve them for our wars.

...
30

ULTRA HOS CHATTI INITIVM SEDIS
AB HERCYNIO SALTV INCOHANT,
NON ITA EFFVSIS AC PALVSTRIBVS LOCIS,
VT CETERAE CIVITATES,
IN QVAS GERMANIA PATESCIT;

Beyond them are the Chatti,
whose settlements begin at the Hercynian forest,
where the country is not so open and marshy
as in the other cantons
into which Germany stretches.

DVRANT SIQVIDEM COLLES,
PAVLATIM RARESCVNT,
ET CHATTOS SVOS SALTVS
HERCYNIVS PROSEQVITVR
SIMVL ATQVE DEPONIT.

They are found where there are hills,
and with them grow less frequent,
for the Hercynian forest keeps close
till it has seen the last
of its native Chatti.

DVRIORA GENTI CORPORA,
STRICTI ARTVS,
MINAX VVLTVS ET MAIOR ANIMI VIGOR.

Hardy frames, close-knit limbs,
fierce countenances,
and a peculiarly vigorous courage,
mark the tribe.

MVLTVM, VT INTER GERMANOS,
RATIONIS AC SOLLERTIAE:

For Germans, they have much
intelligence and sagacity;

PRAEPONERE ELECTOS,
AVDIRE PRAEPOSITOS,
NOSSE ORDINES,
INTELLEGERE OCCASIONES,
DIFFERRE IMPETVS,
DISPONERE DIEM,
VALLARE NOCTEM,

they promote their picked men to power,
and obey those whom they promote;
they keep their ranks,
note their opportunities,
check their impulses,
portion out the day,
intrench themselves by night,

FORTVNAM INTER DVBIA,
VIRTVTEM INTER CERTA NVMERARE,

regard fortune as a doubtful,
valour as an unfailing resource;

QVODQVE RARISSIMVM
NEC NISI RATIONE DISCIPLINAE CONCESSVM,
PLVS REPONERE IN DVCE
QVAM IN EXERCITV.

and what is most unusual,
and only given to systematic discipline,
they rely more on the general
than on the army.

OMNE ROBVR IN PEDITE,
QVEM SVPER ARMA FERRAMENTIS
QVOQVE ET COPIIS ONERANT:

Their whole strength is in their infantry,
which, in addition to its arms,
is laden with iron tools and provisions.

ALIOS AD PROELIVM IRE VIDEAS,
CHATTOS AD BELLVM.

Other tribes you see going to battle,
the Chatti to a campaign.

RARI EXCVRSVS
ET FORTVITA PVGNA.

Seldom do they engage in mere raids
and casual encounters.

EQVESTRIVM SANE VIRIVM ID PROPRIVM,
CITO PARARE VICTORIAM,
CITO CEDERE:

It is indeed the peculiarity of a cavalry force
quickly to win and as quickly
to yield a victory.

VELOCITAS IVXTA FORMIDINEM,
CVNCTATIO PROPIOR CONSTANTIAE EST.

Fleetness and timidity go together;
deliberateness is more akin to steady courage.

31

ET ALIIS GERMANORVM POPVLIS
VSVRPATVM RARO ET PRIVATA CVIVSQVE
AVDENTIA APVD CHATTOS IN CONSENSVM VERTIT,

A practice,rare among the other German tribes,
and simply characteristic of individual prowess,
has become general among the Chatti,

VT PRIMVM ADOLEVERINT,
CRINEM BARBAMQVE SVBMITTERE,
NEC NISI HOSTE CAESO EXVERE VOTIVVM
OBLIGATVMQVE VIRTVTI ORIS HABITVM.

of letting the hair and beard grow
as soon as they have attained manhood,
and not till they have slain a foe laying aside
that peculiar aspect which devotes and pledges them to valour.

SVPER SANGVINEM ET SPOLIA
REVELANT FRONTEM,

Over the spoiled and bleeding enemy
they show their faces once more;

SEQVE TVM DEMVM PRETIA NASCENDI
RETTVLISSE DIGNOSQVE PATRIA
AC PARENTIBVS FERVNT:

then, and not till then,
proclaiming that they have discharged the obligations of their birth,
and proved themselves worthy of their country and of their parents.

IGNAVIS ET IMBELLIBVS MANET SQVALOR.

The coward and the unwarlike remain unshorn.

FORTISSIMVS QVISQVE FERREVM INSVPER ANVLVM
(IGNOMINIOSVM ID GENTI)

The bravest of them also wear an iron ring
(which otherwise is a mark of disgrace among the people)

VELVT VINCVLVM GESTAT,
DONEC SE CAEDE HOSTIS ABSOLVAT.

until they have released themselves
by the slaughter of a foe.

PLVRIMIS CHATTORVM HIC PLACET HABITVS,

Most of the Chatti delight in these fashions.

IAMQVE CANENT INSIGNES ET HOSTIBVS
SIMVL SVISQVE MONSTRATI.

Even hoary-headed men are distinguished by them,
and are thus conspicuous alike to enemies and to fellow-countrymen.

OMNIVM PENES HOS INITIA PVGNARVM;

To begin the battle always rests with them;

HAEC PRIMA SEMPER ACIES,
VISV NOVA;

they form the first line,
an unusual spectacle.

NAM NE IN PACE QVIDEM VVLTV
MITIORE MANSVESCVNT.

Nor even in peace do they assume
a more civilised aspect.

NVLLI DOMVS AVT AGER AVT ALIQVA CVRA:

They have no home or land or occupation;

PROVT AD QVEMQVE VENERE,
ALVNTVR, PRODIGI ALIENI,
CONTEMPTORES SVI,

they are supported by whomsoever they visit,
as lavish of the property of others
as they are regardless of their own,

DONEC EXSANGVIS SENECTVS TAM DVRAE VIRTVTI IMPARES FACIAT.

till at length the feebleness of age makes them unequal to so stern a valour.

*** Posted 26.11.10 - 12:47 PM
Otharus, 26.11.10 - 11:01 AM
CHATTI

The Frisians and the Dutch always seem to have had a special liking for big cats (dutch: KATTEN).


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