Forum # 2 (nov. 28 - jan. 28, 2011)

### Posted 28 November 2010 - 10:33 AM
PRAEPONERE ELECTOS,
AVDIRE PRAEPOSITOS,
they promote their picked men to power,
and obey those whom they promote;
...
QVODQVE RARISSIMVM
NEC NISI RATIONE DISCIPLINAE CONCESSVM,
PLVS REPONERE IN DVCE
QVAM IN EXERCITV.
and what is most unusual,
and only given to systematic discipline,
they rely more on the general
than on the army.

### Posted 28 November 2010 - 05:24 PM
The Puzzler, on 28 November 2010 - 02:10 PM, said:
A sea-maiden often overlooked ... is Aphrodite.
Born of the sea (foam), a sea-maiden if ever there was one.

"In Norse mythology, Njörðr is a god among the Vanir.
Njörðr is father of the deities Freyr and Freyja by his unnamed Van sister...
... is associated with sea, seafaring, wind, fishing, wealth, and crop fertility."
(wikipedia)

### Posted 16 December 2010 - 03:20 PM
As the longest active thread on this forum has illustrated, the so-called 'Oera Linda Book' is indeed an unexplained mystery;

There is no hard evidence to the widely accepted theory that the manuscript was created in the 19th century.

Yet, the English Wikipedia article on the subject claims that "The Oera Linda Book is a 19th century Frisian manuscript."

It is said that the paper was identified to have been fabricated in the 19th century, but again, this is not yet scientifically confirmed. And even if paper and ink were that young, it's still possible that the information they carry is much older.

So what is 'OLB'?

1) The creation of a 19th century anonymous author who (possibly with the help of others) must have had a huge knowledge of languages, history, theology, mythology as well as an incredible creativity.

2) A (copy of a) 13th century copy of a 9th century copy of an older collection of texts.

Can anyone provide credible evidence to either 1) or 2), or are there other possibilities?

### Posted 17 December 2010 - 02:29 AM
Scáthach, on 16 December 2010 - 05:57 PM, said:
There's already an Oera Linda thread here.

I know, because I posted all my 111 previous posts there.

In this old thread it was suggested many times to start a new one,
as the main question there is whether or not there was a big flood
or tsunami in 2193 BC, that made the Old Land/ Aldland/ Atland
disappear, as suggested in Alewyn Raubenheimer's book
Survivors of the great Tsunami.

This new thread aims to focus on the OLB itself.

### Posted 18 December 2010 - 07:10 AM
The following is a possible 2nd century AD reference to the Jol-script, as used in OLB.
(In the Jol-script, all letters and numbers are based on the 'JOL' or wheel.)

Fragment of:

METAMORPHOSES ~ LIBER XI
by LVCIVS APVLEIVS (ca. 180 AD)

LIBROS LITTERIS IGNORABILIBVS PRAENOTATOS,
PARTIM FIGVRIS CVIVSCE MODI ANIMALIVM CONCEPTI SERMONIS
COMPENDIOSA VERBA SUGGERENTES,
PARTIM NODOSIS
ET IN MODVM ROTAE
TORTVOSIS CAPREOLATIMQVE CONDENSIS
APICIBVS A CVRIOSITATE PROFANORVM LECTIONE MVNITA.

Translation William Adlington 1566:

books, partly written with unknown characters,
and partly painted with figures of beasts
declaring briefly every sentence,
with tops and tailes,
turning in fashion of a wheele,
which were strange and impossible
to be read of the prophane people

Translation E.J. Kenney 1998:

books written in unknown characters.
Some of these represented various animals
and were shorthand for formulaic expressions,
and some were in the form of knots
or rounded like a wheel
or twisted at the ends like vine-tendrils,
to guard their meaning
against the curiosity of the uninitiated

IN MODVM ROTAE = in wheel mode = in JOL mode?

### Posted 19 December 2010 - 05:18 AM
Abramelin, on 18 December 2010 - 07:31 PM, said:
I think it's nothing but imagination

This brings us to an interesting aspect of the OLB debate.

Indeed the Book of Isis, or chapter 11 of The Golden Ass, was presented as fiction, but even fiction uses images that the author (and hopefully also the reader) is familiar with, or else he/she could not imagine it.

It can be argued that the Jewish and Roman 'Testaments' are "nothing but imagination" either, and yet they can give us clues to the language and symbols of the times when they were compiled.

A more intelligent comment would have been that the supposed omniscient creator(s) of the OLB may have been inspired by the Book of Isis when they 'imagined' their JOL-script.

### Posted 18 December 2010 - 07:28 AM
Earlier in the OLB/Tsunami thread, it was suggested that the PHRYGIANS may have been the FRYAS of the OLB.

In this context, it's noteworthy that Lucius Apuleius (Metamorphoses, ca. 180 AD) calls them "PRIMIGENII",
translated as "first-born of mankind" by E.J. Kenney (1998).

PRIMIGENII PHRYGES PESSINVNTIAM DEVM MATREM

The Phrygians, first-born of mankind, call me the Pessinuntian Mother of the gods

### Posted 20 December 2010 - 08:08 AM
Abramelin, on 19 December 2010 - 06:50 PM, said:
You studied ancient languages, but all you do is come up with crap etymologies a child would be able to concoct.

I take it as a compliment that I make the things I do look easy,
but I suspect you call them "crap", because you don't like them.
I never claim to know the truth, only make suggestions.

My method is simple indeed:

If two words sound similar,
and they have a similar meaning,
it is likely that they are related.

Two examples:

Stor (swedish) = large
Stoer (dutch) = sturdy

Gamla (swedish) = old
Gammel (dutch) = rickety

I agree with Puzzler that "Asia" and "Aesir" (dutch: Azen) are most likely related to "east".

One more example that already fascinated me at high-school:

MITTERE (latin) = to send, let go, release, discharge, throw, hurl, cast, launch (etc)
Mieteren (westfrisian slang) = to throw

### Posted 20 December 2010 - 08:51 AM
Abramelin, on 19 December 2010 - 06:50 PM, said:
Look at what Tolkien did, just as an example.

You mentioned Tolkien many times, but:
Tolkien (1892-1973) was born 30 years after OLB was made public.
He may have been partly inspired by it.
Also he did not publish anonymously.

To create something as complex as OLB, to keep it a total secret (thus not receive any credit for it), and to mislead highly studied men like Ottema (and a few others!), is more unlikely i.m.o. than Cornelis over de Linden and all of his witnesses having been honest.

### Posted 22 December 2010 - 07:05 AM
jaylemurph, on 22 December 2010 - 12:20 AM, said:
Then that's what separates you from linguists and other people knowledgeable of language. It's a specifically literary version of the common phenomenon (here, anyway) of seeing exactly what you want to.

Welcome to this discussion, Jaylemurph, and thank you for challenging my reasoning.

I don't think much of linguist scholars as they have never seriously taken part in the Oera Linda debate (as far as I know). (Indeed I don't count Vinckers (1876), as his publication was highly emotional).
They should by now be able to once and for all make it understood why the language of OLB cannot be authentic, if that is so obvious.

On this "alternative history" forum, alternative etymology should be just as valid a tool to try and explain an ancient mystery. Not hindered by existing thinking patterns (I studied something completely different at University), I may with a fresh look (occasionally) see truth that official historians or linguists don't want to see because it is too much in conflict with their (professors') paradigm.

No doubt you are more knowledgeable of English than me, but what do you know of other Northern European languages?
My most serious attempts are based on comparisons with Swedish, German and Dutch.

My 'etymology' of "smurf" was an obvious (I hope) joke.
If the others made you slap your knees too, that says more about your sense of humor, than that it is proof that I am wrong. Please don't be vague and give examples of my supposed blunders.


### Posted 22 December 2010 - 08:49 AM
Abramelin, on 22 June 2010 - 10:58 PM, said:
It's like a clever 12 years old kid concocted the story..

Abramelin, on 21 December 2010 - 09:13 PM, said:
Now imagine a 19th century 'Tolkien', but a 'Tolkien' with an agenda...

=> A clever 12 years old 19th century 'Tolkien' with an agenda!!!

If OLB is the creation of a prodigy, why is it not more well known?

Is it because of this "agenda"?

(Jensma's agenda theory (in short) is that OLB was meant as a parody of the Jewish and Roman 'bibles', but what if it is the other way around; what if the idea to compose the 'old' testament (Tanakh? 200BCE-200CE?) was inspired by an earlier collection of texts? Would it not make sense that these older texts would have been popular fuel for holy fires?)


### Posted 24 December 2010 - 04:36 PM
Otharus, on 14 December 2010 - 03:54 PM, said:
I've been in India for almost two weeks now and finding many clues to the Indo-European (-Aryan) connection, both in language, as well as in symbology. I will post more about this later.

Yesterday in Gokarna, I found the Indian version of the JOL, the 6-spokes wheel, painted on several walls in a religious context (see photos).

The text around some of them is in the Karnatakan language.
I will have it translated. (Or can one of the real linguists make themselves useful?)

What I found out already is, that the wheel is symbol for Kali (Indian equivalent of Nordic mythology Freyja) and of time (as it is in the Oera Linda Book).

### Posted 25 December 2010 - 07:47 AM

OLB p.45 about the Jol and it's feast:
(my improvised translation, not good English, but close to the original, so you can make your own)

HWAT HIR BOPPA STÀT SIND THI TÉKNA FON THÀT JOL.
What stands up here are the signs of the Jol.
THÀT IS THÀT FORMA SINNEBILD WR-ALDA'S.
That is Wralda's first symbol.
AK FON 'T ANFANG JEFTA 'T BIJIN WÉRUT TID KÉM.
Also of the get-on or begin where-out tide came.
THÀT IS THENE KRODER THÉR ÉVG MITH THÀT JOL MOT OMMEHLÁPE.
That is the wheelbarrower that must infinitely walk on with the Jol.
THANA HETH FRYA THÀT STANDSKRIFT MAKAD THAT HJA BRUKTE TO HJRA TEX.
After that Frya has made the standscribes that she used for her Tex.
THA FASTA ÉRE-MODER WÉRE HETH HJU'R THÀT RUN JEFTA HLAPANDE SKRIFT FON MAKAD.
When Fasta was first-mother she made the run or walking scribes from it.
THER WITKÉNING, THÀT IS SÉKÉNING GOD-FRÉJATH, THENE ALDA,
The witking, that is seaking Godfrejath, the old,
HETH THÉR ASVNDERGANA TELNOMAR FON MAKAD FÁR STAND ÀND RUNSKRIFT BÉDE.
has thereof made as-under-going countnumbers both for stand and runscribes.
'T IS HÉRVMBE NAVT TO DROK THAT WI'R JÉRLIKS ÉNIS FÉST VR FÍRJA.
It's herefore not too much that we celebrate it with a yearly feast.

#### 2115 Posted 25 December 2010 - 07:52 AM
Alewyn, on 24 December 2010 - 11:51 AM, said:
I am satisfied that I have proven beyond reasonable doubt in "Survivors of the Great Tsunami" that the Oera Linda Book is authentic. The fact that some cannot assimilate all the facts and references in my book is regrettable but then, my book, although not aimed at academics only, was never meant to be light reading.

"All evidence gathered for this book points to the fact that the A-ryans were the F-ryans - the Gertmanne from Athenia who settled relatively peaceful in the Punjab.
Survivors or the Great Tsunami, p.174.

I believe Alewyn is right and have found a clue that may support this theory:

"Krshna is described as an Asura. This term Asura has been wrongly interpreted by Indology as the Indigines, or the so-called non-Aryan races of people as the proto-Australoids and the Dravidians.
...
Sometimes in the Rg Veda, and the other Veda forms, the term Dasyus or slaves is used. This term too was erroneously read by Indology as referring to the Indigines. However, since the Rg Veda and the other Veda forms are written in allegorical language, this term Dasyus too should be read allegorically. Thus, when one comes across the term Dasyus, all it means is un-Aryan or non-Vedic."
From: "Divine Initiation" by Bhagavan Shri Shanmukha Anantha Natha (2001), p.58.

If non-Aryans were referred to as 'slaves', it means Aryans were considered to be 'non-slaves' or 'frees'.

Welcome back Alewyn, and I'd like to thank you once more for writing your book that after all inspired us to have this fruitful new debate about the Oera Linda 'Bok'. God Jul!

#### 2116 Posted 25 December 2010 - 08:06 AM
Otharus, on 25 December 2010 - 07:52 AM, said:
"Krshna is described as an Asura."

Asura => Aesir

Speaking of the Veda...

I would not be surprised if this word is related to the Fryan word WÉTA (OLB p.40),
translated by Sandbach as "principles", Jensma: "weetjes".

Dutch:
weten = to know
wetten = laws

### 2128 Posted 26 December 2010 - 11:51 AM
The Puzzler, on 26 December 2010 - 04:51 AM, said:
I'm continuing reading the translator's preface and another thought came to me.
This Atland is more than likely Atlantis.

Thanks for your Bday wishes (so we're both from the year of revolutions?) and the great posts of Sandbach's intro.

My feeling about "Atlantis" is this:

If, as OLB suggests, Atlant comes from ALD-LAND, meaning old land, than it would probably not have been called that before the 'big flood' and it can refer to any land that was lost in the 'big flood', so it does not need to have been the name of just one specific island or continent.

### 2136 Posted 27 December 2010 - 11:16 AM
Otharus, on 13 November 2010 - 08:51 AM, said:
Nazi scientists publicly rejected OLB in 1934 because of political reasons as I have pointed out before. Jensma explains this too in "De Gemaskerde God" (p.185-186). (Note: contrary to what I wrote earlier Heinrich Himmler still believed in the authenticity of OLB during the war (DGG p.186).)

Interesting:
"Why are we trying to bring to the attention of the world the fact that we have no past? Isn't it enough that the Romans built massive buildings, while our forefathers still had to live in miserable huts? Himmler has now started digging up the remains of these miserable dwellings, and is enthralled by every pottery shard or any stone axe he finds. The only thing that comes out of that is, that it is now clear to everyone that we were still throwing stone axes and huddling around the fire at a time when the Greeks and the Romans had for a long time reached the highest cultural level. In reality, we should keep quiet about our past, but instead Himmler is creating a quite unnecessary fuss with his activities. The Romans of our days must be highly amused over Himmler's discoveries!"
Hitler quoted by Albert Speer (Inside the Third Reich, 1970)

### 2141 Posted 28 December 2010 - 03:40 AM
Flashbangwollap, on 27 December 2010 - 06:00 PM, said:
The Celts, Germans, Saxons, Vikings and Franks may not have lived in cities entirely built of stone but they weren't as backward as you suggest.

I suggested the opposite. It was Adolf Hitler suggesting that, as quoted by Albert Speer.
I agree with you that, like their ships, their buildings will have been built from wood.

### 2143 Posted 28 December 2010 - 08:37 AM
Abramelin, on 27 December 2010 - 09:53 PM, said:
You don't 'understand' it either, you just interpret it according to you preferenced wishes.
It's about established ancient Middle Eastern mythology against recently invented ancient European 'mythology'.
Read again about Halbertsma, and what he wanted to establish.

Is not your preferenced wish that Halbertsma was the auctor intellectualis,
so you can keep holding on to the "established ancient Middle Eastern mythology"?

Quote
I read about the OLB before you were born (I read about the OLB when I was 10).

Wow that really proves you must be more knowledgable than me, does it?
What was it you read and who wrote it?

Quote
And, LOL, before you were born you didn't read anything; but if you think you did, it tells me something about the things you believe in (reincarnation).

Apologies, I assumed you had a sense of humor.

Quote
Belief/Religion is a crutch... It helps people get along. Booze is another crutch....

There's those who like to be conscious...
(dutch and german: bewust)
and there's those who like to forget,
escaping in addictions.
(dutch: verslavingen => 'enslavements')

### 2146 Posted 28 December 2010 - 10:43 AM
One more on "NEF" TUNIS.

Is it a co-incidence that "nef" is also the name of a type of ship used in the Middle Ages?
French wikipedia: "caraque" or "nef"
(english: "carrack" or "nau")

Also think of words like: navigation, navy, nautic.
(just thinking out loud)

I don't think it's that strange that "Nef Tunis" was remembered as such, because his cousin Wodin became king of early Scandinavia for 7 years and he may very well have referred to his cousin as "nef Tunis".

It must have been significant at that time too that 3 cousins went on an enterprise together the way they did.

### 2148 Posted 28 December 2010 - 04:45 PM
Abramelin, on 23 December 2010 - 07:10 PM, said:
Halbertsma, a guy who loved the ancient 14th century Rostringen dialect of (East-)Frisian, because it was so close to Gothic, a dialect he knew of, a dialect that is carbon copy of the language used in the OLB.

It would be interesting to examine a sample from this Rostringen dialect.

My theory is that the OLB language is an older version of old-Westfrisian, but since I'm not a linguist,
I don't know a method to test this theory (I may think of one later).
Maybe one of you can help.
I found some old-Westfrisian, probably from the 12th century.
Let's have a look at it.
I used capitals so it will be easier to compare with the 'OLB language' ('Fryan'?).
That Fryan is easier to read does not need to mean it is younger (or made up);
After a few hundred years of wars the old education system would have virtually collapsed.
That would explain the oldest version being more pure, the later versions more dialected or bastardised.

(Here in India I read signs like: "Familey hotel", "mobail phones", "hair cutting saloon", "fan & mixer repeiring", "beach resturent")

"The Skeltana Riucht [excerpts]
A skelta is something like a magistrate or a sheriff (in the original English sense). Riucht means law. Roughly speaking, the Skeltana Riucht is the law of the magistrates. It probably dates from the twelfth century and is in Old Frisian. Below I have produced some of the more interesting provisions, first in Old Frisian and then in English. The source is Sydney Fairbanks, The Old West Frisian Skeltana Riucht (Harvard University Press, 1939)."
(source: www.languageandlaw.org)

The translations below are edited by me to get closer to the original, but based on www.languageandlaw.org.

VII
THIT IS RIUCHT,
This is right (law),
THET THI FEDER NE ACH NENE MANNE SINE DOCHTER TI IEWANE OWER HIRE WILLA,
that the father ought not give his daughter to any man over (against) her will,
THUR THET HIU NAUTES WALD NI ACH MER HERA LEITHENA.
since her body ought not be harmed.
AND IEFTH HI SE OWER HIRE WILLA
And if he gives her over her will
(AND OWER HIRE WALD)
(and over her resistance)
AND HIRE MISSKITH AN THA ONWILLA,
and she is victim of the unwill,
SO ACH HI THET BETA MITH FRETHE AND MITH FESTA,
so ought he pay for it with fine and with fasting,
ALSO HISE MITH SINRE HAND FORSLAIN HEDE.
as if he had slain her with his own hand.

XXI
THIT IS RIUCHT
This is right (law)
SO HWERSO MA EN WIF AN NEDE NIMTH
whenever one takes a woman by force
AND MA HIT THA FRANA KLAGATH,
and one (other) has complained to the Frana (magistrate),
SO IS HIT RIUCHT
so is the right
THET MA HIRE FOLGIA SKEL
that one shall follow her
TI THA FORDELE THER HIU INNE IS,
to the dwelling that she is in,
MITH THA ASEGA.
with the Asega (judge).
ANDE THI FRANA SKEL HIRE FREGIA
And the Frana shall ask her
HU HIU ALDER KOME,
how she came there,
HODER WILLEM SO UNWILLEM.
willingly or unwillingly.
SO HWODER SO HIU SPRECKT,
However so she speaks
SO SKEL HIU THACH AN THES FRANA WERE
she shall nevertheless in the Frana’s protection
THRIA NACHTA SITTA
sit for three nights
THUR THA NED THER MA THER KLAGADE.
by reason of the force complained of.
THES THREDDA DEIS
The third day
SO ACH HIA THI FRANA AN WARF TI BRENGANE
so ought the Frana to bring her to the warf (court)
AND TWENE STEWAN TO SETTANE,
and set up two staves,
HIRE WILLA TI BARIANE.
to bare (manifest) her will (decision).
ETTA OTHERA STEWE STANDE HIRE MEGAN,
At one staff stands her kinsmen,
ETTA OTHERA HIRE MAN.
at the other her man.
GEITH HIU TI THA MANNE
If she goes to the man
HIU BRUKES WEL THER OM
she shows well therefore???
("let her have him in peace,)
THET HIU NAUTES WALD NI ACH NI WERE HIRA LITHENA
that she did not have to protect her body with force???
(for she has at least the right to dispose of her own person.")
[THERA ACH HIU THA WALD].
(there ought she the force???)
GEITH HIU TI THA MEGUM,
If she goes to the kinsman,
SO SKEL THI MAN HIA TWIIELDE IELDA
so shall the man pay her twice
AND HI SKEL BREKE AND BRAND THELDA
and he shall suffer break and burn
AND ACHTICH PUNDA IEWA HEREM AND LIUDEM
and give eighty pounds to nobles and commons
ANDE THERA (SIBBISTA) SEXA ALLERLIK,
and the (nearest) six of kin all alike,
IEF SE THERIN BITIUGAD WORDATH,
if they are convicted of complicity,
BRAND AND BREKE THELDA
(they will) suffer burn and break
AND MITH ENRE HAUDLESNE BETA.
and pay with a hand-ransom.
SO HWAM SO MA THES EKES BITIGATH,
And whoever is in any way convicted
THET HI THER MEDE AN FULLESTE WERE,
of having had assisted therein,
SO SKEL HI MITH TWAM PUNDUM BETA,
so shall he pay with two pounds
IEFTA SEXASUM UNSWORA.
unless unsworn by six.
("or take an oath of innocence with five compugators.")

### 2154 Posted 02 January 2011 - 07:28 AM
For a better understanding of the history of the so-called 'Oera Linda Book' (and its reception in the 1870‘s), Let’s start exploring some of the events that transformed part of 'Frisia' into 'Holland'.

The following is from:

"Warfare in Holland 1000-1375" (English summary)
by Ronald de Graaf
(2004, dutch title: “Oorlog om Holland 1000-1375“)

"Holland, slowly awakening under the name of Western Frisia, grew in four centuries from a little countship in the delta of the great rivers, lying along the borders of the sea, into a considerable region. In the 11th century one could not see any difference between a count and other local rulers, and the territory of the count was not entirely cultivated. The location of Holland in the centre of communication lines, was strategically favourable with a view to its own commerce and the control of alien trade.
...
In the 11th century Utrecht was very powerful. Owing to the location of the city on the crossroads of the rivers the Vecht and the Old Rhine, trading relations with England, the Rhineland and the Baltic could be profitable. In politicis, the bishops could depend on the support given by the German King. When the little Westfrisian countship strived for independence - for instance by imposing an illegal toll on passing mercantile ships to and from Utrecht - it seemed only a matter of time before the elephant had crushed the gnat. But the attackers, together with episcopal allies from Münster and Luik, lost the battle at Vlaardingen in 1018 (because of waterbarriers and panic), and a succeeding campaign in 1046. When in 1049 and 1061 two Westfrisian counts died - the first was trapped in an ambush, and the second fell in action - the end of the countship was in sight. Joined by Flemmish forces, count Dirk V had to reconquer it entirely. But he was successful. In 1101, the name 'counts of Holland' was used for the first time. During the preceding years, the subregion 'Western Frisia' was disengaged from the other part of the county. It would take tremendous efforts to get it back.
...
From antiquity on, Holland and Western-Frisia had belonged to Frisia. At the end of the 11th century, both regions apparently had grown apart, probably because around 1064 the bishop of Utrecht had driven the counts off the theatres of war in Holland. In 1132-1133 the warlike count Dirk VI decided to solve in a military way the problem of avoiding the autonomy of Western-Frisia. This was the start of a long series of bloodshed and pillage, raids and expeditions. At least twenty of these clashes emerge from the sources. They contain several constant factors. The farmers in Western-Frisia adopted a military strategy: the kind of warfare we survey with the word 'guerrilla'. They had an extra reason for fighting, because fields and pastures were drowned by waterfloods between 11-13th centuries. The Southern Sea, which drove the Western Frisians away from the Eastern, came into being in this time.

For geophysical reasons most battles were fought in the surroundings of Alkmaar. For almost 150 years Holland played into the hands of their enemies, by only attacking them when the cattle were in stables, the harvests cropped and the granary full. The knights did not dare to invade Western-Frisia, because their horses were hindered by the many ditches, brooks, lakes and wet soil. On account of these environmental factors, the Dutch were trapped in many a Westfrisian ambush.

It was not until 1282 that Floris V defeated the Westfrisians, by means of a fourfold military-strategical concept. He had castles built along the border and then launched a surprise attack over the Southern Sea. His offensive started while the cattle were in the pastures and the crops in the fields, so that most of the Frisians were needed in their farms. After winning the battle he consolidated his victory by building compulsionary castles, according to a containment plan that was developed with geometrical precision. Finally he helped his enemies in their struggle against the sea, by means of well constructed and maintained dikes as in Utrecht and Brabant. He let them have as many of their ancient rights and customs as possible.
...
The count of Holland received an official confirmation of his rights on (Eastern-) Frisia in 1165. Owing to the energetic support of both the countal and episcopal claims, Barbarossa saw no alternative and devided the region by a Salomon’s judgement. This condominium worked, as it seems, rather well between 1165-1197 and 1204-1212. Market- and tollrights and the endowment of goods and appointments were equally divided. By frana and asega the bishop exercised his power; the count worked by way of a zendgraaf, vice-comes or sherrif. Much less than in Holland and rather less than in Sealand, the local nobility in Frisia, the so-called hoofdelingen, became feudalized.

Nonetheless, they were willing to submit themselves to certain Dutch claims. Ever since the reign of Floris V, Utrecht no longer demanded its old rights persistently. In the year 1233 the Frisians in Franeker lifted the count on a shield on condition that the local nobility would not lose their allodia or receive their fiefs from him. Although they acknowledged the Dutch sherrifs, they demanded that the office be held only by people born in Frisia. The background of these conditions was their fear of being oppressed by Holland, as clearly happened - in their opinion - in Western Frisia, when Floris V erected compulsionary castles.”

### 2155 Posted 02 January 2011 - 07:36 AM
Abramelin, on 17 December 2010 - 07:05 PM, said:
What is your explanation for the 'ham' in the Jewish name "Abramelin", lol?
Otharus, this thing you are doing with words is kid's play.

I was not the first to suggest that the name Abraham might be related to Brahman.

Wikipedia about Anacalypsis by Godfrey Higgins (1772-1833):

"Among the many unusual theories presented in this book is that both the Celtic Druids and the Jews originated in India – and that the name of the Biblical Abraham is really a variation of the word Brahma, created by shifting the last letter to the beginning: Abrahma. Higgens used the term, "Pandeism" to describe the religious society that he purported had existed from ancient times, and at one time had been known throughout the entire world. Higgins believed this practice continued in secret until the time of his writing, in the 1830s in an area stretching from Greece to India."

"... in an area stretching from Greece to India."
Interesting, isn't it?
Has anyone read this "Anacalypsis"?

### 2157 Posted 03 January 2011 - 06:33 AM
SlimJim22, on 02 January 2011 - 05:33 PM, said:
It's a stand alone work and unsurprisingly is hard to come by and rarely referenced by academics. Fringe writers like Gene Matlock have continued the approach but to little avail it seems. (...) Personally, I could find little relevant to the OLB but the similarities between Kali and Jul wheels may support diffusion. Discerning the direction is not so easy.

Thank you Jim, those links were readworthy, I'll dive deeper into it.
Here's a few lines I copied from Anacalypsis to share with the forum:

p.49
Manichæus, according to Theodoret, said, in his allegorical language, "That a male-virgin gave light and life to Eve," that is, created her. (...) The male-virgin, Theodoret says, was called Joel, or Iahl, which Beausobre thinks was "EL, God, and Joha, life-making, vivifying, life-giving, or the generating God."

p.50
The Israelites at the exodus had evidently run into the worship of Apis the Bull, or the Golden Calf of Egypt, which it was the object of Moses to abolish, and in the place thereof to substitute the worship of one God—Iao, Jehovah—which, in fact, was only the Sun or the Solar Fire, yet not the Sun, as Creator, but as emblem of or shekinah of the Divinity.

p.58
Justin states, that the Phœnecians being obliged to leave their native country in the East, they settled first near the Assyrian Lake, which is the Persian Gulf; and Maurice says, "We find an extensive district, named Palestine, to the east of the Euphrates and Tigris. The word Palestine seems derived from Pallisthan, the seat of the Pallis or Shepherds." Palli, in India, means Shepherd.

### 2159 Posted 04 January 2011 - 09:01 PM
Otharus, on 02 January 2011 - 07:36 AM, said:
I was not the first to suggest that the name Abraham might be related to Brahman.

Wikipedia about Anacalypsis by Godfrey Higgins (1772-1833):

"... that the name of the Biblical Abraham is really a variation of the word Brahma..."

OOPs... mistaken by one letter:

Brahma => Abram
Savitri => Sarai

Some more quotes from Anacalypsis:

p.61
The histories of the creation, both in the first and in the second book of Genesis, in the sacred books of the Persians, and in those of the Chaldeans, are evidently different versions of the same story. The Chaldeans state the world to have been created not in six days, but in six periods of time—the lengths of the periods not being fixed. The Persians, also, divided the time into six periods.

p.64
Perhaps there is no word in any language which has been more written about than the word Aleim; or as modern Jews corruptly call it, Elohim. But all its difficulties are at once removed by considering it as a representation of the united Godhead, the Trinity in Unity, the three Persons in one God.

p.67
The word Aleim has been derived from the Arabic word Allah God, by many learned men; ... the Alah, articulo emphatico alalah (Calassio) of the Arabians, is evidently the Al of the Chaldees or Jews;

p.80
Whatever trifling differences or incongruities may be discovered between them, the following conclusions are inevitable, viz. that the religion of Abraham and that of the Magi, were in reality the same; that they both contained the doctrine of the Trinity; and that the oriental historians who state this fact, state only what is true.

p.85
The Persians also claim Ibrahim, i.e. Abraham, for their founder, as well as the Jews. Thus we see that according to all ancient history the Persians, the Jews, and the Arabians, are descendants of Abraham.

But Abraham was not merely the founder of the Persians, but various authors assert, that he was a great Magician, at the head of the Magi, that is, he was at the head of the priesthood, as our king is, and as the Persian kings always were, and as the Roman Emperors found it necessary to become in later days : no doubt a sound and wise policy. The standards of the tribe of the Israelites, the ornaments of the Temple, the pillars Joachim and Boaz, the latter with its orrery or sphere at the top of it, the Urim and Thummin, in short, the whole of the Jewish system betrays judicial astrology, or, in other words, magic, in every part. The Magi of Persia were only the order of priests—Magi in Persia, Clergymen in England.

### 2161 Posted 05 January 2011 - 10:28 AM
One more about unlikely etymologies in the Oera Linda Book, because this seems to be the strongest 'proof' of the skeptics that OLB has to be a mystification.

If some etymologies are incorrect,
this does not have to mean that OLB must be a mystification;

If OLB is NOT a mystification,
this does not mean that all its etymologies have to be correct;

The author may have either (erroneously?) believed them,
or he may have been consciously joking.

Why would our ancient ancestors not have a sense of humor?

Same goes for the histories; they don't all have to be true.
part of them may have been contemporary (entertaining) fiction or (political) propaganda.

(Example: creation myth and history of the 3 first mothers Lyda, Finda and Frya)

Some people apparently want to believe it's either all fiction, or all fact.
To me it's obvious that the truth will lie somewhere in between.

Evaluating everything I have learnt so far, the chance of OLB being authentic seems far more realistic than any of the mystification-theories.

But let's continue our research...
Can anyone provide a sample of this Old-Rustringian dialect that Knul believes to have been Halbertsma's inspiration for the OLB language?
I cannot find it online but would very much like to analyse it.

### 2163 Posted 05 January 2011 - 05:23 PM
Nowhere does the OLB say that BUDA means "buidel" (dutch for pouch),it's Jensma' mistranslation that does
(and by doing things like that he makes OLB indeed look ridiculous).

OLB p.138 (Survivors of the Great Tsunami p.381)

SIN FRJASKA FRJUND HÉTE HIM BUDA,
his Frisian friend called him Buda,
Jensma: zijn Friese vriend noemde hem Boeddha oftewel buidel,

VMBE THAT HI IN SIN HAVED EN SKAT FON WISDOM HÉDE
because he had a treasure of wisdom in his head
omdat hij in zijn hoofd een schat van wijsheid had

AND IN SIN HIRT EN SKAT FON LIAVDE.
and in his heart a treasure of love.
en in zijn hart een schat van liefde.

Godfrey Higgins on the meaning of the word Buddha (Anacalypsis p.154):

In my Celtic Druids I have shewn that the worship of Buddha is everywhere to be found —in Wales, Scotland, and Ireland.
Hu, the great God of the Welsh, is called Buddwas; and they call their God Budd, the God of victory, the king who rises in light and ascends the sky.
In Scotland, the country people frighten their children by telling them, that old Bud or the old man will take them. In India, one of the meanings of the word Buddha is old man.
In this inquiry it seems of the first consequence to ascertain the meaning of the word Buddha. From the examination of the accounts of the different authors, this celebrated word appears to have the same meaning as to the first word of Genesis, that is, Wisdom, or extremely wise, or wise in a high degree. M. Creuzer gives it savant, sage, intelligence, excellente, et supérieure. He says, it allies itself or is closely allied to the understanding, mind, intelligence unique, and supreme of God.
This is confirmed by Mr. Ward, the missionary, who tells us that Buddha is the Deity of WISDOM, as was the Minerva of Greece. When devotees pray for wisdom to their king, they say, may Buddha give thee wisdom.

And to be precise about HIMEL.LAJA (OLB also doesn't say "aaien"):

OLB p.163 (Survivors of the Great Tsunami p.394)

THA BERGA HWANA SE DEL STRAME SIND ALSA HACH THET SE TO THA HIMEL LAJA.
The mountains from where they stream down are so high that they lay to/in heaven (himel)
THÉRVMBE WARTH ET BERCHTA HIMEL.LAJA BERCHTA HÉTEN.
therefore the mountains are called "Himel-laya".

### 2164 Posted 05 January 2011 - 05:28 PM
From Ottema's introduction to The Oera Linda Book (English Sandbach version, 1876; "Survivors" p. 299):

"Time is the carrier who must eternally turn the "Jol" (wheel) and carry the sun along his course through the firmament from winter to winter, thus forming the year, every turn of the wheel being a day. In midwinter the "Jolfeest" is celebrated on Frya's Day. Then cakes are baked in the form of the sun's wheel, because with the Jol Frya formed the letters when she wrote her "Tex." The Jolfeest is therefore also in honour of Frya as inventor of writing."

In honour of Dr. Ottema, I post this photo of wheel-shaped cookies that are baked every year around Christmas in some areas of India. I asked what they represented because they could also have been flowers, but it was confirmed that they are meant to be "wheels of time".

### 2169 Posted 07 January 2011 - 02:37 AM
Abramelin, on 06 January 2011 - 04:11 PM, said:
You seem to forget that this mythical Frislant Island was still above sealevel during the 14th century (according to the Zeno brothers).

No, you seem to not have read the chapter about it in Alewyn's book.
According to his theory, the Zeno map is a copy from an older original.

### 2170 Posted 07 January 2011 - 05:22 AM
Godfrey Higgins, almost two centuries ago, about our 'Great Flood' and Atlantis in Anacalypsis, published posthumously in 1833:
(underlining by me)

p.295-302
But the reasons which I have given to prove that man has been created since the universal flood, which buried the last race of fossilized animals, seem to be satisfactory; therefore, the flood of which I now speak must have been of later date, and this later flood is what the priests of all religions have exaggerated into a universal deluge, burying the highest of our present mountains fifteen cubits deep. This flood may have taken place in the period of from about two to three thousand years before Christ. At this time the celebrated city of the great Bali, or Maha-Balipore, near Sadrass, in India, may have been destroyed. Of this city the Cambridge Key* says, "The stately palaces, august temples, and stupendous edifices, of this once magnificent city, are universally believed by every Hindoo, whether learned or unlearned, to have been destroyed by 'a genearl deluge brought upon the earth by the immediate mandate of the Supreme God.' They still shew the chasm in the rock, that forms one of the largest choultrys; and the divided sculpture but too plainly shews that nothing less than a convulsion of nature could have rent so large a mass of solid stone, leaving the divided sculpture on each side the chasm,—evidently denoting that it was carved before the convulsion took place. This is a truth too apparent to be denied."

* Vol. I. p.313.

We are told by Plato, that before the race of people who occupied Greece in his time lived, a previous race had been destroyed by a great flood. Now, I think it may be possible to find a probable cause for this effect : but I will previously make a few observations on the Pyramid and Delta of Egypt, from which I think we may, in our search, gain some assistance.

I shall, in the first place, give an extract from the work of a learned priest of the name of Gab, of the Romish Church, which contains a statement of several curious and unobserved facts. "… But if this deposite of sand is not the effect of the winds, by what agency came it here ? Not by any extraordinary overflowing of the Nile, from which a sediment might be left : for it is known, that river never rose to near the height of that plain of rock, nor are there any kind of shell-fish in the Nile : whereas shells and petrified oysters are found in the sands about the Pyramids.

"And it must be allowed, when this Pyramid of Giza was built, there were no such depths either of sands or of earth upon the rock, as in the time of Herodotus, from the absurdities that would follow such a supposition : since the builders must first have dug out their depth of sand equal in extent of twelve English acres : and when their work was completed, must be argued to have filled in, against the declining sides, to the level of the former surface, and thus have buried a considerable part of their own work.

"From these positions, it evidently appears, this Pyramid must have been erected by the Antediluvians before the universal deluge, called Noah's flood, and the description given of it in Holy Writ will account in a satisfactory manner for the lodgment of sand on the surface of that extensive rock.

"It is natural to conclude the heavier particles of sand, when the waters became tranquil, would sink first, and the lighter particles, of course, both on account of their texture as well as their more exposed situation, would easily pulverize, and be sooner conveyed by the winds to distant places, than the ponderous, compressed layers, intermixed with shells and portions of loam, which more immediately covered the sides of the Pyramid nearer the rock. Of course the reduction of this consolidated mass has been by slow degrees, and its dispersion by the winds so imperceptible as to defeat observation."*

* Gab's Finis Pyramidis.

In addition to the argument of Mr. Gab, upon the excavation to acquire a foundation for the Pyramids, it may be asked, If they were built on the rock before it was covered with sand from the desert, how came the ROCK itself not to be covered ? Did the winds only begin to blow sand when the Pyramid began to be built ? During the thousands of years before, was no sand blown ? This appears to me to form a very strong argument in favour of Mr. Gab's hypothesis, though it seems to have been overlooked by him.

Ancient Giza was, I think, the sea-port before the Nile changed its bed; and the change was probably effected by the inundation of which I shall speak, which at the same time buried the Pyramids in sand, changed the bed of the river, and, in great part, if not entirely, formed the Delta. The flood which, I shall shew, flowed up Egypt, probably covered a considerable part of Lybia, and carried thither shells similar to those found at the foot of the great Pyramid, and on the surface of the sand around the temple of Seva or Jupiter Ammon,* to which it is not impossible the flood extended. …

* Vide Rennel, ib. pp. 238, 257.

If we suppose that the strait of Gibraltar was originally closed like the Isthmus of Suez, and that the water flowed over the neck of land, we may readily conceive how Lower Egypt, the Isthmus of Suez, the Pontine Marshes, and many islands, would be left dry, on its breaking down the neck into the Atlantic. Whether the opening increased gradually for a great number of years after its first disruption, or it happened at once, it will readily account for the Pharos of Alexandria having once stood a considerable distance from the land, and for the city of Hadria and the sea-port of Padua, in Italy, being left far inland, where they are now found.

We learn from Plato, and other Greek authors, that, in a very remote æra, a large island in the Atlantic ocean was swallowed up by the sea, and with it numerous nations, at one moment, drowned. This history does not seem improbable, and will, if admitted, account for many coincidences between the natives of the old and new worlds.

Of the size of this Atlantis we know really nothing. It may have been three times as large as Australia, for any thing which we know to the contrary. …

The first convulsion of which I have spoken is that which made Britain an island, and threw up Mount Blanc and Chimborazo. After that convulsion another might have been caused by the sinking of Atlantis. This may have been caused by that which occasioned the destruction of Maha-bali-pore. Another great change in all the islands and shores of the Mediterranean may have taken place when the opening was made at the straits of Gibraltar, and another great change may have taken place when the lakes Aral, Asoph, and Euxine, broke their banks, by which the flood described by Plato may have been first effected, and the Delta of Egypt, and the shores of Italy left dry, after it had escaped at the straits. All those different catastrophes probably happened. Of their order, except with respect to the first, I give no opinion.

I have lately discovered a geological fact of nature which bears strongly upon this subject. There in Yorkshire, near the confluence of the rivers Ouse and Trent, within the angle which they make before they unite and form the river Humber, a tract of alluvial country of great riches and fertility, which has formerly been covered with oak and fir timber, the lower parts of which yet remain in the ground fixed as they grew. … This country is now defended from the tides by banks maintained at a very great expense; but the fact to which I have alluded is this—the tides now rise at least six feet above the surface of the soil where the remains of these trees are yet found. …

From this it is quite certain that a great change must have taken place in the relative levels of the land and ocean, because these trees could never have grown in a soil where they were daily flooded with salt water. What I have stated with respect to the tides and the remains of the trees which I have seen, are facts which cannot be disputed, and I think they shew that a very great but unsuspected change has taken place, or is taking place, in the relative situations of the land and the sea. Every thing tends to shew, that the surface of the Mediterranean sea, with respect to its shores, has been lowered. The facts stated respecting the trees in Yorkshire PROVE that the Atlantic, with relation to the land of Britain, has been raised, or vice versa, the land lowered. …

### 2171 Posted 07 January 2011 - 06:40 AM
I trust that at least some of you will appreciate my quotes from Higgins' Anacalypsis, which contains information that i.m.o. is most relevant for a better understanding of the Oera Linda Book and alternative history in general.

Abramelin, on 17 December 2010 - 07:05 PM, said:
What is your explanation for the 'ham' in the Jewish name "Abramelin", lol?

p.315 (underlining by me)

Jesus was not called originally Jesus Christ, but Jescua Hammassiah. Jescua is the same as Joshua and Jesus, and means Saviour; and Ham is evidently the Om of India, (the Ammon,) and Messiah is the anointed. It will then be, The saviour Om the anointed; precisely as Isaiah had literally foretold : or, reading in the Hebrew mode, The anointed Om the Saviour. This was the name of Jesus of Bethlehem. The name of Jesus also was JESUS BEN PANTHER. Jesus was a very common name with the Jews. Stukeley observes, that the patronymic of Jesus Christ was Panther; and that Panther were the nurses and bringers up of Bacchus; and adds, "'Tis remarkable that Panther was the sirname of Joseph's family, our Lord's foster-father. Thus the Midrashkobeleth, or gloss, upon Ecclesiastes : 'It happened that a serpent bit R. Eleasar ben Damash, and James, a man of the village Secania, came to heal him in the name of Jesus ben Panther.' This is likewise in the book called Abodazara, where the comment upon it says, This James was disciple of Jesus the Nazarene."

### 2176 Posted 07 January 2011 - 04:09 PM
Abramelin, on 06 January 2011 - 03:13 PM, said:
No, actually it was Ottema who translated it as "buidel" (pouch).

OK, so Ottema was the first. He made more mistakes, like with "WR.ALDA.S OD" in the creation myth, but that was in 1872. Jensma's translation was published in 2006.

I did not say Jensma was the first or only one to mistranslate it with "buidel". Hopefully he was the last.

'BUDA' was called that because (if Higgins is right) this means 'WISDOM'.

My point is, that there are no 'silly etymologies' in the OLB that would prove it must be a mystification/ hoax, only silly translations and interpretations.

I hereby challenge the skeptics to present OLB-'etymologies' that would make it impossible for OLB to be authentic.

### 2177 Posted 07 January 2011 - 04:11 PM
SlimJim22, on 06 January 2011 - 05:27 PM, said:
Female divers are a good candidate for real mermaids and in some ways it does fit the OLB references to sea peoples i.e. they were not restricted to the Faroe Isles but came up against much prejudice and were constantly forced to move on.

What "OLB references to sea peoples" do you mean, Jim?

### 2178 Posted 07 January 2011 - 04:23 PM
Alewyn, on 07 January 2011 - 06:41 AM, said:
In my book I stated categorically that I cannot say that Frisland (aka Frislant, Frislanda) was Atlantis or the OLB's Atland. I am convinced, however, that the Faroe Islands are the remains of Zeno's Frisland.

Good to know you're still with us Alewyn. I hope you found some of the recent posts interesting.

Indeed there is no proof that Frisland was the Aldland of the Fryas, but the name does suggest a connection.

It would be great if those Darwin Mounds could be explored someday...

### 2186 Posted 08 January 2011 - 04:09 PM
Abramelin, on 07 January 2011 - 06:10 PM, said:
But because you are in the possession of Jensma's book yourself, maybe you yourself could give us some of the examples from his book?

The following is yet another example of how Jensma has shamelessly raped the OLB (sorry I can't think of a better term).
I don't doubt his good intentions, but it is 'translations' like this, as well as his way of reasoning, that make it very hard for me to read it without literally feeling 'unwell'.

OLB p.72 ('Survivors' p.348)

THÉRVMBE KÉRON WI GÉRT.PIRE.HIS TOGHATER TO VSA MODER UT.

Jensma (2006):
Daarom kozen wij Gertje, de dochter van Grote Pier, tot onze Moeder uit.

Translation of Jensma (2006):
Therefore we chose Gerty, the daughter of 'Grutte Pier', for our Mother.

Sandbach (1876):
Therefore we chose Gert, Pire's daughter, for our burghfemme.

(I would have left "Mother" instead of "burghfemme").

Footnote Jensma:
Gert, Grutte Piersdaughter - The text says GERT.PIRE.HIS TOGHATER; the word Gert (that serves later to clarify the origin of the GÉRT.MANNA, the Gertmans and Germans respectively) was formed by an obvious metathesis out of the Newfrisian grut = great.

Original footnote, in dutch:
Gert, Grote Piersdochter - De tekst geeft GERT.PIRE.HIS TOGHATER; het woord Gert (dat later dient om de oorsprong van de GÉRT.MANNA, de Gertmannen en vervolgens de Germanen duidelijk te maken) is door een voor de hand liggende metathesis gevormd uit Nfr grut = groot.

Only at her introduction in the text, the patro- or matronymicon "PIRE.HIS.TOGHATER" is used ("HIS" is neutral); as from there (p.73-74) she is just called "GÉRT". Jensma keeps translating this name as "Gertje"; Gerty or little Gert.

See Wikipedia for information on Frisian hero "Grutte Pier" or Pier Donia (c.1480-1520).

For a better understanding of Jensma's reasoning, I will add what he writes about this fragment in "Het Oera Linda-boek" (2006; p.21). This is almost identical to what he writes about it in his dissertation "De Gemaskerde God" (2004; p.84).

Improvised translation into english by me:

"A good example of how the author uses all those qualities [homour, intellect, erudition] and tries to tease the reader, is the persona GERT.PIRE.HIS TOGHATER. Guided by this folkmother the Frisian navigators of 1500 BC sail to India where they start a colony. The name GERT.PIRE.HIS TOGHATER must be interpreted as 'the daughter of Grutte Pier' and is ridiculous, because her father would be born 3000 years later. The followers of Gerty, as she usually would be called, are named GÉRTMANNA - 'Gertmans' and from that word -implicitly- the name of the area Karmania is explained (nowadays on the border of Pakistan and Iran). When centuries later under guidance of a certain Friso the offspring of these Gertmans return to Europe, they -self evidently- become the namegivers of the European Germania and of the Germans. Jokes like this have to be peeled out of the text. The reader does not immediately see them, but at second sight, after he has decifered the letters, has learned to slightly understand the language, tasted a certain structure through the various fragments, and mostly after he has become used to the half-ridiculous, half-erudite style."

Original, in dutch:

"Een goed voorbeeld van hoe de auteur al deze kwaliteiten [humor, intellect, eruditie] samen inzet en er de lezer mee probeert te prikkelen, betreft het personage GERT.PIRE.HIS TOGHATER. Onder leiding van deze volksmoeder varen de Friese sturen rond 1500 voor Christus naar India waar ze een kolonie stichten. De naam GERT.PIRE.HIS TOGHATER moet worden opgevat als 'de dochter van Grote Pier' en is kolderiek, immers haar vader zou pas zo'n 3000 jaar later worden geboren. De volgelingen van Gertje, zoals ze in het voorbijgaan wordt genoemd, heten GÉRTMANNA - 'Gertmannen' en vanuit dat woord wordt -impliciet- vervolgens de naam van de streek Karmanië (tegenwoordig op de grens van Pakistan en Iran) verklaard. Wanneer eeuwen later onder leiding van een zekere Friso de nazaten van deze zelfde Gertmannen weer terugkeren naar Europa fungeren zij -vanzelfsprekend- ook weer als naamgevers van het Europese Germanië en van de Germanen. Grappen als deze moeten uit de tekst worden gepeld. De lezer ziet ze niet onmiddelijk maar pas bij nader inzien, nadat hij het schrift heeft ontcijferd, de taal enigszins heeft leren verstaan, door de verschillende fragmenten heen een zekere samenhang heeft geproefd en vooral ook nadat hij gewend is geraakt aan de half-kolderieke, half-erudiete toonzetting."

After this daring exercise I need a little break from making big posts, and focus on other priorities. I will be back.

### 2230 Posted 11 January 2011 - 06:00 PM
Abramelin, on 11 January 2011 - 03:41 PM, said:
Hi Otharus, did you read all of De Heer's transliteration? Or better, do you think it's accurate?

Yes, I read the whole transliteration and I like how he put the translation under every line of original text. This way anyone can easily learn to read it and compare.

I remember noticing just a few minor typing errors, but all together it's quite accurate.

Knowing how much work he put into it, I can understand how he'll probably not share it just like that without any some sort of compensation.

### 2262 Posted 12 January 2011 - 10:13 AM
Otharus, on 11 January 2011 - 01:33 PM, said:
I had a better look at your website and understand that you are also the swindler behind "Daughters of Frya".

Just like Vinckers in 1876, Jensma in 2004/2006 aimed at neutralising the OLB by pseudo-scientifically ridiculing it. The fraudulent 'Daughters of Frya' website from Tony Steal proved to be helpful to him in reaching this goal. He copied text and screenshots in both his books to illustrate just how stupid some of the 'believers' are. Ironically, by doing this, he presents an obvious hoax (the supposed D.O.F. sect) as being true, while his main goal is to present OLB as a hoax.

This proves how even 'serious researchers' reproduce nonsense when it helps them make their point.

Jensma (2006) p.14
"The believers of the book do more than just read it. Nowaday Australia knows a succesful sect -'the daughters of Frya'- that only women and girls can join. They shape their lives according to the rules(*) that were given, before 2000 BC, by primal mother Frya to her Frisian children. They wear white (mini-)skirts, refrain from having sex and drinking alcohol and spend at least six hours dayly honoring Frya: 'The life of a daughter of Frya is not an easy one, but... it is incredibly rewarding'."

And next to a screenshot with a photo of girls from a tennis-club in New Zealand (?):

"The Daughters of Frya is a group of young women who live according to Frya's laws(*) from the Oera Linda-book. They live in a community north of Sydney in New South Wales, Australia."

(*) NOTE: these supposed rules/laws are nonsense and cannot be found back in the OLB.

Original text in Dutch:
"De aanhangers van het boek laten het niet bij lezen. In Australië bestaat tegenwoordig een succesvolle sekte -'the daughters of Frya'- waarvan uitsluitend vrouwen en meisjes lid kunnen zijn. Ze richten hun leven in volgens de leefregels die ooit, ver vóór 2000 vóór Christus, de oermoeder Frya aan haar Friese kinderen gaf. Ze dragen witte (mini-)jurkjes, onthouden zich van seks en drank en besteden tenminste zes uur per dag aan Frya's eredienst: 'The life of a daughter of Frya is not an easy one, but... it is incredibly rewarding'."
{screenshot met foto tennisclub New Zealand}
"The Daughters of Frya zijn een groep jonge vrouwen die hun leven inrichten volgens de in het Oera Linda-boek gegeven wetten. Zij wonen in een leefgemeenschap even ten noorden van Sydney in New South Wales, Australië."

### 2272 Posted 12 January 2011 - 05:18 PM
Tony S., on 12 January 2011 - 01:17 PM, said:
With the OLB, the 19th century redactors clearly added their own contemporary ideas about monotheism to it.

If this is so clear, please explain.

Quote
If there's one thing we know for sure about the ancient Frisians, it's that they were Pagans.

How would you define 'Pagan'? Again, please explain.
If you mean they were non-Abrahamic, I would agree.
But if you mean they were polytheistic, OLB disagrees and so would I.
The following also suggests something else.

The distribution of votive stones that have been found from the time of the Roman Empire (roughly around the year zero) can give an impression of the popularity of various 'gods' and 'goddesses'. It is remarkable that in Nether-Germania (roughly nowaday Netherlands), most stones by far were not dedicated to 'gods' or 'goddesses', but to 'the Mothers':

"More than 1300 stones have the inscription 'to the mothers', but we don't have a good idea who they were. There are countless varieties, like the Alaferhuic mothers, the Aufanic mothers, the Cartovallensic, the Rumanehuic and the Vatviaic-Nersihenic mothers. Some mothers seem to have limited their activities to one single tribe, like the Hamaveic and the Hiannanefatic mothers of the Chamaves and Cananefates."
(from: "De rand van het Rijk ~ De Romeinen en de Lage Landen" by Jona Lendering and Arjen Bosman, page207, translation by me)

In the following table (copied from page 209) the distribution can be compared with that in Latium (central Italy) and Belgica; For a comparison, the number for Jupiter (Io) is standardised to 100. (Besides 'the Mothers', the names that can be related to the OLB are made bold by me.)

NETHER-GERMANIA
1. 'Mothers' 168 (= 1300)
2. Jupiter 100
3. Nehalennia 67 (at two sacred sites only)
4. Mercurius 43
5. Mars 37
6. Hercules 34
7. Fortuna 21
8. Juno 16
9. Diana 16
10. Sol/ Mithras 16
11. Apollo 11
12. Minerva 11
13. Isis 8
14. Silvanus 8
15. Victoria 7

BELGICA
1. Mercurius 139
2. Mars 136
3. Jupiter 100
4. Liber Pater (Dionysus) 84
5. Apollo 52
6. Hercules 41
7. Sol/ Mithras 37
8. 'Mothers' 30
9. Minerva 19
10. Diana 13
11. Juno 13
12. Fortuna 8
13. Victoria 8
14. Venus 5
15. Silvanus 3

LATIUM
1. Mars 194
2. Venus 101
3. Jupiter 100
4. Fortuna 92
5. Hercules 71
6. Silvanus 45
7. Diana 44
8. Sol/Mithras 43
9. Victoria 40
10. Kybele 36
11. Juno 30
12. Ceres 28
13. Isis 25
14. Mercurius 25
15. Apollo 24

It is difficult to draw any solid conclusions from the table, but it suggests clearly that in the low lands (the Frisia of the early Middle Ages) the 'Mothers' had by far a more prominent role than the 'pagan' mythological characters as compared to Belgica and specially Latium.

### 2283 Posted 13 January 2011 - 10:05 AM
Tony S., on 12 January 2011 - 06:10 PM, said:
Very interesting, but what makes you think the "mothers" are not Pagan figures? They seem consistent with both Paganism and what we know from the OLB.

It makes more sense to me that the votive stones for the "Mothers" are a leftover of the old matriarchal culture.
In the time of the Roman Empire, after hundreds of years of wars, most of it would have been destroyed already.
"What we know from the OLB" is that the (proto-) Frisians did not like deification of dead ancestors or heroes.
But I guess you'll argue that this element was edited in later, just like Mark Puryear does.
It seems as if both of you consider authentic what fits your ideas, and whatever doesn't would be edited or added later.
I hope you will share some of your more recent conclusions about OLB so they can be discussed here.

### 2296 Posted 13 January 2011 - 05:48 PM
Tony S., on 13 January 2011 - 10:38 AM, said:
Yes, the "mothers" are undoubtedly leftovers from the old matriarchal culture, which was Pagan.

If "Pagan" means "polytheistic" or the worship of deified dead people (referred to as "gods" and "goddesses"), then the table with votive stones in my earlier post clearly suggest that Latium (and probably also old-Greece) was more Pagan than Nether-Germania in the Roman age. "Mothers" (whether dead or alive) is not the same as "Goddesses" with specific names.

Quote
If I ever said Wr-alda was the spouse of Irtha, then I was oversimplifying the issue. I certainly wouldn't say it now. Irtha brought forth all living things, and after she had done so, Wr-alda breathed his life into Frya. That's what the OLB mythology tells us. But to say Wr-alda is genderless is simply wrong. He is called "All-father" many times in the OLB.

The following shows how important it is, for a correct understanding of the OLB, to read the original, untranslated version.

J = Jensma; Dutch (2006) with one correction by me ("oftewel alvader")
S = Sandbach; English (1876) translation of Ottema (1872)

(Note that -in all my previous posts- when I thought I quoted from Sandbach's translation, using Appendix B of "Survivors of the Great Tsunami", this was actually the edited version by someone anonymous (Tony S.?) as the author A.J. Raubenheimer was misinformed when he copied this version from the internet.)

p.189; BRÉF FON RIKA THJU ALD-FAM

JY WÉTATH JEFTA JY NÉTATH NAVT, HO VVR.ALDA THUSAND GLORNÔMA HETH.
J: U weet -of u weet niet- hoe Wralda duizend glorienamen heeft.
S: You know, or you do not know, how many titles Wr-alda has;

THACH THAT WÉTATH JY ALLE, THAT HY WARTH AL-FÉDER HÉTEN,
J: Maar dit weet u allen, dat hij de alvoeder oftewel alvader wordt genoemd,
S: but you all know that he is named universal provider,

UT ÉRSÉKE THAT ALLES INUT IM WARTH AND WAXTH TO FÉDING SINRA SKEPSELA.
J: uit oorzake dat alles uit hem wordt en groeit tot voeding van zijn schepselen.
S: because that everything comes and proceeds from him for the sustenance of his creatures.

Note: FÉDSTRE is an explicit femimine version of FÉDER, which does not mean that the latter has to be masculine; it's neutral, as is also confirmed by the following:

p.99; APOL-LÁNJA ~ FORM-LÉRE

THA MANNISKA SEND MANNALIK AND BERLIK.~ MEN WRALDA SKEPTH BÉDE.
J: De mensen zijn mannelijk en vrouwelijk. Maar Wralda schept beide.
S: Mankind are male and female, but Wr-alda created both.

=> AL-FÉDER means all-feeder and is neutral.

Quote
What is your opinion on Veralden-olmai of the Lapps?

See my post #1810 (10 november '10): "Veraldar God", "Weralden Olma", "Ar Var Alda".

Quote
The Bock Saga could be said to be the worldview of the Magyar-Finns. Doesn't necessarily make it true, though.

I do not agree that this would be "the worldview of the Magyar-Finns" (but I won't get into that here) and I did not suggest it is true. I said it has my interest.

### 2297 Posted 13 January 2011 - 05:59 PM
Tony S., on 13 January 2011 - 11:42 AM, said:
I said Wr-alda means "world", which is not the same as "earth" by any means.
World means something akin to "cosmos" or "universe".

The word WR.ALDA is made up of two words:
WR, meaning "over" and ALDA, meaning "old (being)".
Therefore, the original meaning of WR.ALDA would have been "over-old (being)": (the) oldest.
This is the origin of our word "World".

### 2298 Posted 13 January 2011 - 06:10 PM
Tony S., on 13 January 2011 - 11:52 AM, said:
The OLB says that those figures - and quite a few others, including Jesus, be it noted - were humans who were worshipped as gods and goddesses after their deaths.

The "Jesus" you are referring to lived ca. 600 BC and was also known as "Buda", "Krisen" and "Fo".

Jesus of Nazareth is not mentioned in the Oera Linda book.

### 2345 Posted 14 January 2011 - 10:17 AM
Tony S., on 13 January 2011 - 06:14 PM, said:
The word Alfoder, as an alternative name for Wr-alda, is mentioned in quite a few places in the OLB, such as here, in "USEFUL EXTRACTS FROM THE WRITINGS LEFT BY MINNO."

Wr.alda jeftha Alfoder which means, of course, "Wr-alda or All-father". I find it very significant that exactly the same title was applied, in later times, to deities such as Woden.

OK, so I'll have to spell it out for you.
No worries, it's a pleasure as it's an interesting fragment.

The OLB knows two versions of this title that you like to translate with "All-father";
AL-FODER and AL-FÉDER.

In the "SKRIFTUM MINNO's":

WR.ALDA JEFTA AL.FODER HETH MI FÉLO JÉREN JÉVEN.
wr-alda or Al-foder has has given me many years.

It does not say or even suggest here that "foder" means "father".

(In fact, it will have sounded like "fooder"~ english, "fuder"~ german, "foeder"~ dutch).

The following fragment provides more clarity, if you read the original text.
Translations are interpretations, but if you read carefully, it becomes very clear that (according to the OLB) the original meaning of AL-FODER or AL-FÉDER was All-feeder or All-provider and not Daddy-of-all.

Translation by Sandbach, strikethroughs and corrections by me (only the most relevant)

(p.189)

JY WÉTATH JEFTA JY NÉTATH NAVT, HO VVR.ALDA THUSAND GLORNOOMA HETH.
You know, or you do not know, how many titles Wr-alda has

THACH THAT WÉTATH JY ALLE, THAT HY WARTH AL-FÉDER HÉTEN,
but you all know that he is named universal provider (all-feeder),

UT ÉRSÉKE THAT ALLES INUT IM WARTH AND WAXTH TO FÉDING SINRA SKEPSELA.
because that everything comes and proceeds from him for the sustenance of (to feeding) his creatures.

T.IS WÉR THAT JRTHA WARTH BIHWYLA AK AL-FÉDSTRE HÉTEN,
It is true that Irtha is named sometimes the feeder of all (all-feedstre),

THRVCHDAM HJU ALLE FRUUCHD AND NOCHTA BÉRTH HWÉRMITHA MANNISK AND DJAR HJARA SELVA FÉDE.
because she brings forth all the fruits and grains on which men and beasts are fed (feed themselves)

THACH NE SKOLDE HJU NÉNE FRUUCHD NER NOCHT NAVT NE BÉRA BYDAM VVRALDA HJA NÉNE KREFTA NE JEF.
but she would not bear any fruit or grain unless Wr-alda gave her the power.

AK WIVA THER HJARA BERN MAMA LÉTA AN HJARA BROSTA WERTHAT FÉDSTRA HÉTEN,
Women who nourish their children at their breasts are called nurses (feedstra),

THA NE JEF VVR.ALDA THÉR NÉN MELOK IN SA NE SKOLDON THA BERN THÉR NÉNE BATE BY FINDA.
but if Wr-alda did not give them milk the children would find no advantage.

SA THAT BY SLOT FON RÉKNONG VVR.ALDA ALLÉNA FÉDER BILYWET.
so that, in short, Wr-alda really is the nourisher (feeder).

THAT JRTHA BYHWYLA WARTH AL.FÉDSTRE HÉTEN AND ÉNE MAM FÉDSTRE KAN JETA THRVCH.NE WENDE.
That Irtha should be called the universal nourisher (all-feedstre), and that a mother should be called a feeder (feedstre), one can understand, figuratively speaking;

MEN THAT-NE MAN HEM LÉT FÉDER HÉTE VMBE THAT ER TAT SY, THAT STRID WITH.AJEN ALLE RÉDNUM.
but that a father should be called a (man lets himself be called feeder), because he is a father (dad), goes against all reason.

(p.190)

Now I know whence all this folly comes.
Listen to me. It comes from our enemies;
and if this is followed up you will become slaves,
to the sorrow of Frya and to the punishment of your pride.
I will tell you what happened to the slave people;
from that you may take warning.
The foreign kings, who follow their own will,
place Wr-alda below the crown.

UT NYD THAT VVR.ALDA AL-FÉDER HÉT,
From envy that Wr-alda is called the universal father (all-feeder),

SA WILDON HJA FÉDRUM THÉRA FOLKAR HÉTA.
they wish also to be called fathers (feedrum) of the people.

NVV WÉT ALLERA MANNALIK THAT-NE KÉNING NAVT OVIR-NE WAXDOM NE WELTH
Now, everybody knows that kings do not regulate the productiveness of the earth;

AND THAT-IM SIN FÉDING THRVCH THAT FOLK BROCHT WARTH.
and that they have their sustenance (feeding) by means of the people,

but still they will persist in their arrogance.
In order to attain their object
they were not satisfied from the beginning with free gifts,
but imposed a tax upon the people.
With the tax thus raised they hired foreign soldiers,
whom they retained about their courts.
Afterwards they took as many wives as they pleased,
and the smaller princes and gentry did the same.
When, in consequence, quarrels and disputes arose in the households,
and complaints were made about it, they said

JAHWEDER MAN IS THENE FÉDER FON SIN HUSHALDEN
every man is the father (feeder) of his household,

therefore he shall be master and judge over it.

(P.191)

Thus arose arbitrariness,
and as the men ruled over their households
the kings would do over their people.
When the kings had accomplished that,

THAT HJA FÉDERUM THÉRA FOLKAR HÉTE
they should be called fathers (feederum) of the people,

they had statues of themselves made,
and erected in the churches beside the statues of the idols,
and those who would not bow down to them
were either killed or put in chains.

JOW ÉTHLA AND THA TWISK-LANDAR HAVON MITH-A POPPA FORSTA OMME GVNGEN
Your forefathers and the Twisklanders had intercourse with the kings (Popes),

DANA HAVON HJA THJUSE DWÉSHÉD LÉRED.
and learned these follies from them.

---------------------------------------
=>> Origin of the word "father", according to Rika's letter in OLB:

masculine/neutral: FÉDER (plur.: FÉD(E)RUM)
feminine: FÉDSTRE (plur.: FÉDSTRA)

### 2347 Posted 14 January 2011 - 10:24 AM
Tony S., on 13 January 2011 - 06:14 PM, said:
It is not surprising that the ancient Frisians had a different Pagan religion to the ancient Greeks and Romans. It was still Pagan, though.

If you don't consider OLB to be a reliable source in this issue, than what is/are your oldest source(s) that makes you believe this?

### 2346 osted 14 January 2011 - 10:21 AM
Tony S., on 13 January 2011 - 06:14 PM, said:
The Wr in Wr-alda does not mean "over". It means "first", as in the German ur. The name literally means, therefore, "first-eldest", or, in a more free translation, "most-ancient".

The German "ur" is equal to the Dutch "oer" (pronounced the same).
One could say "first" or "primal" or something similar.
"Oer" on itself does not mean much, it's used in combination.

A correct German translation of "Wr-alda" would be: "Ur-alte", and in Dutch: "Oer-oude" (or "Over-oude"; 'older-than-old-one'; the oldest or the most-ancient as you suggested.

I meant "over-old" as in "before-old".

Anyway, we seem to agree that the meaning "world" would be of later late;
the "ur-meaning" (oerbetekenis) is something like: "oldest" or "most-ancient".

### 2354 Posted 14 January 2011 - 02:56 PM
Tony S., on 14 January 2011 - 10:44 AM, said:
I consider the OLB to be an extremely important source, but I don't regard it as holy writ, with every word of it literally true. It's a historical chronicle, and must be judged against other sources, such as archaeology, accordingly. It happens to stand up very well.

I also don't regard every word as literally true and I think nobody should.

But that does not answer my question.

I respect that you like to believe that the Fryas or old-Frisians were 'pagans', but the OLB clearly suggests they were not. If you present your theory as fact here as you keep doing, you will need to provide proof from either other sources or archaeology. Explain how you have come to your conclusion.

### 2351 Posted 14 January 2011 - 02:45 PM
Tony S., on 14 January 2011 - 10:41 AM, said:
The passage you cite makes a distinction between All-father and All-feeder, and draws an analogy between the two, but it does not reject All-father, which is also used elsewhere.

It does not, only in the known translations.
Read the original.
The Fryan word for "father" is TÁT.

### 2357 Posted 14 January 2011 - 03:06 PM
Tony S., on 14 January 2011 - 02:49 PM, said:
I suggest, again, that you are indulging in intellectual dishonesty because of religious bias.

I could easily accuse you of doing the same, but that would not help the discussion, would it?
By the way...
The German translation of "the World" is "die Welt"; feminine

### 2394 Posted 15 January 2011 - 06:47 AM
Tony S., on 14 January 2011 - 03:08 PM, said:
It is not a "theory" that the ancient Frisians were Pagans. It's a historical fact. English missionary bishops went there to convert them, but had little success. It wasn't until Christianity was imposed on them by Charlemagne that they became Christians.

http://alkman1.blogspot.nl/2007/03/pagan-frisia.html

A famous Frisian god was Fosite, the law-giver, who later became the Norse Forseti. Other gods and goddesses included those who also, not surprisingly, turn up in Anglo-Saxon contexts, such as Woden (Wodin), and Frigg (Frya).

Tony S., on 14 January 2011 - 06:11 PM, said:
I have always maintained that the current manuscript is probably 19th century. The important question is, how much is based on earlier material?

Aha, this explains why we did not understand each other.

1) You talk about people (many of which were immigrants) who lived in Friesland in the times of christening (roughly between 300 and 1300 AD), while I try to understand the language and culture of the Fryas civilisation as described in the 'Book of Adela Followers' (ca. 2200-600 BC) and the added texts (ca. 600 BC to 0).

2) You base yourself on disputable 19th and 20th century interpretations of the Edda that were written by a Christian monk in the 13th century, on folklore as described by late-19th-century authors like Jacob Grimm and on websites that are slightly more intelligent than the ones you created yourself.

3) You consider your interpretation of these interpretations as "historic facts". (Do those exist anyway? I thought we were discussing "alternative history" here.)

4) You believe that the Oera Linda book was composed in the 19th century, partly based on old documents (the part that fits into your theory) from the Over de Linden family.

5) You participate in this discussion in a 'questionable state of mind'. (I suggest you and Abramelin stop wasting our time and join the thread "getting pissed and talking nonsense".)

6) Concerning the term 'intellectual dishonesty' that you have used a few times now:
"The terms intellectually dishonest and intellectual dishonesty are often used as rhetorical devices in a debate; the label invariably frames an opponent in a negative light.
The phrase is also frequently used by orators when a debate foe or audience reaches a conclusion varying from the speaker's on a given subject. This appears mostly in debates or discussions of speculative, non-scientific issues, such as morality or policy." (Wikipedia)

### 2397 Posted 15 January 2011 - 10:11 AM
Alewyn, on 15 January 2011 - 07:48 AM, said:
Do you have any idea when they examined the manuscript?

Not exactly, one of my questions to them will be when they started the examination.
Sura de Heer filmed a long interview he did with Goffe Jensma in which the latter said that an examination had started.
This interview must have taken place a few years ago, but not before 2006 as Jensma was also showing his book that was published in that year.

### 2395 Posted 15 January 2011 - 06:53 AM
Alewyn, on 15 January 2011 - 05:41 AM, said:
BTW Otharus, have you heard anything further from Leeuwarden Library regarding the dating of the OLB's paper and ink?

I wrote something about it in a personal message to you before I went travelling. Now that I understand that you have not picked it up (I was about to ask you), I will write the contact Tresoar gave me and report back as soon as I have an answer.

One conclusion can already be drawn. That it's odd...
They started the examination some years ago and nothing has been reported yet, while it really should not be that difficult with the present day techniques.

### 2402 Posted 15 January 2011 - 05:22 PM
The Puzzler, on 15 January 2011 - 05:28 AM, said:
I was looking again at the translations and noticed in the Tresoar original it says: Okke min svn, right. (...) So, I'm thinking of that word SVN and think well I know a stereotype name for Swedish men is SVEN, so I check it out....
(...)
Sven means YOUNG MAN. The words Okke min svn say that, imo. Okke, my young man...the SVN can be tied to Old Norse just like Sijrhed (Victory). It shows, again, that the V is not actually a U like it would appear in Latin. It stands up as a Nordic V being a V.

Good find
It is likely that the Fryan word "SVN" is related to the name "SVEN".
This shows once more how important it is to look at the original.

### 2408 Posted 16 January 2011 - 03:19 AM
Otharus, on 14 January 2011 - 10:17 AM, said:
OK, so I'll have to spell it out for you.
No worries, it's a pleasure as it's an interesting fragment.

If ever I understated something, it was this.
The fragment is vital for the understanding of the whole OLB and the beginning of the 'patriarchal' era.

PATER (latin) = VATER (german) = VADER (dutch) = FATHER (english) = FAR (swedish)

The last part of Rika's letter (that I did not include), about women who have themselves called "MODER" (MATER, MUTTER, MOEDER, MOTHER, MOR) is interesting too.

Once more:
Quote
WR.ALDA JEFTA AL.FODER HETH MI FÉLO JÉREN JÉVEN.
wr-alda or Al-foder has has given me many years.

It does not say or even suggest here that "foder" means "father".

(In fact, it will have sounded like "fooder"~ english, "fuder"~ german, "foeder"~ dutch).

The following fragment provides more clarity, if you read the original text.
Translations are interpretations, but if you read carefully, it becomes very clear that (according to the OLB) the original meaning of AL-FODER or AL-FE(E)DER was All-feeder or All-provider and not Daddy-of-all.

Translation by Sandbach, strikethroughs and corrections by me (only the most relevant)

(p.189)
JY WÉTATH JEFTA JY NÉTATH NAVT, HO VVR.ALDA THUSAND GLORNOOMA HETH.
You know, or you do not know, how many titles Wr-alda has
THACH THAT WÉTATH JY ALLE, THAT HY WARTH AL-FÉDER HÉTEN,
but you all know that he is named universal provider (all-feeder),
UT ÉRSÉKE THAT ALLES INUT IM WARTH AND WAXTH TO FÉDING SINRA SKEPSELA.
because that everything comes and proceeds from him for the sustenance of (to feeding) his creatures.
T.IS WÉR THAT JRTHA WARTH BIHWYLA AK AL-FÉDSTRE HÉTEN,
It is true that Irtha is named sometimes the feeder of all (all-feedstre),
THRVCHDAM HJU ALLE FRUUCHD AND NOCHTA BÉRTH HWÉRMITHA MANNISK AND DJAR HJARA SELVA FÉDE.
because she brings forth all the fruits and grains on which men and beasts are fed (feed themselves)
THACH NE SKOLDE HJU NÉNE FRUUCHD NER NOCHT NAVT NE BÉRA BYDAM VVRALDA HJA NÉNE KREFTA NE JEF.
but she would not bear any fruit or grain unless Wr-alda gave her the power.
AK WIVA THER HJARA BERN MAMA LÉTA AN HJARA BROSTA WERTHAT FÉDSTRA HÉTEN,
Women who nourish their children at their breasts are called nurses (feedstra),
THA NE JEF VVR.ALDA THÉR NÉN MELOK IN SA NE SKOLDON THA BERN THÉR NÉNE BATE BY FINDA.
but if Wr-alda did not give them milk the children would find no advantage.
SA THAT BY SLOT FON RÉKNONG VVR.ALDA ALLÉNA FÉDER BILYWET.
so that, in short, Wr-alda really is the nourisher (feeder).
THAT JRTHA BYHWYLA WARTH AL.FÉDSTRE HÉTEN AND ÉNE MAM FÉDSTRE KAN JETA THRVCH.NE WENDE.
That Irtha should be called the universal nourisher (all-feedstre), and that a mother should be called a feeder (feedstre), one can understand, figuratively speaking;
MEN THAT-NE MAN HEM LÉT FÉDER HÉTE VMBE THAT ER TAT SY, THAT STRID WITH.AJEN ALLE RÉDNUM.
but that a father should be called a (man lets himself be called feeder), because he is a father (dad), goes against all reason.

(p.190)
Now I know whence all this folly comes.
Listen to me. It comes from our enemies;
and if this is followed up you will become slaves,
to the sorrow of Frya and to the punishment of your pride.
I will tell you what happened to the slave people;
from that you may take warning.
The foreign kings, who follow their own will,
place Wr-alda below the crown.

UT NYD THAT VVR.ALDA AL-FÉDER HÉT,
From envy that Wr-alda is called the universal father (all-feeder),
SA WILDON HJA FÉDRUM THÉRA FOLKAR HÉTA.
they wish also to be called fathers (feedrum) of the people.
NVV WÉT ALLERA MANNALIK THAT-NE KÉNING NAVT OVIR-NE WAXDOM NE WELTH
Now, everybody knows that kings do not regulate the productiveness of the earth;
AND THAT-IM SIN FÉDING THRVCH THAT FOLK BROCHT WARTH.
and that they have their sustenance (feeding) by means of the people,
but still they will persist in their arrogance.
In order to attain their object
they were not satisfied from the beginning with free gifts,
but imposed a tax upon the people.
With the tax thus raised they hired foreign soldiers,
whom they retained about their courts.
Afterwards they took as many wives as they pleased,
and the smaller princes and gentry did the same.
When, in consequence, quarrels and disputes arose in the households,
and complaints were made about it, they said
JAHWEDER MAN IS THENE FÉDER FON SIN HUSHALDEN
every man is the father (feeder) of his household,
therefore he shall be master and judge over it.

(P.191)
Thus arose arbitrariness,
and as the men ruled over their households
the kings would do over their people.
When the kings had accomplished that,
THAT HJA FÉDERUM THÉRA FOLKAR HÉTE
they should be called fathers (feederum) of the people,
they had statues of themselves made,
and erected in the churches beside the statues of the idols,
and those who would not bow down to them
were either killed or put in chains.
JOW ÉTHLA AND THA TWISK-LANDAR HAVON MITH-A POPPA FORSTA OMME GVNGEN
Your forefathers and the Twisklanders had intercourse with the kings (Popes),
DANA HAVON HJA THJUSE DWÉSHÉD LÉRED.
and learned these follies from them.

---------------------------------------
=>> Origin of the word "father", according to Rika's letter in OLB:

masculine/neutral: FÉDER (plur.: FÉD(E)RUM)
feminine: FÉDSTRE (plur.: FÉDSTRA)

"FODER" in MINNO'S SKRIFTUM was an older spelling of the word.

Original meaning: feeder or provider
(in Latin PROVIDERE is 'to provide for')

### 2412 Posted 16 January 2011 - 09:06 AM
The Puzzler, on 16 January 2011 - 07:39 AM, said:
This is Ottema's translation of the first part of the book:
Skrêven to Ljuwert. Nêi âtland svnken is thaet thria thû sond fjvwer hvndred aend njugon aend fjvwertigoste jêr, thaet is nei kersten rêknong that tvelfhvndred sex aend fiftigoste jêr. Hidde tobinomath oera Linda. - Wâk.

That should be "transliteration".
The V/U question is interesting. I will think about it too.

### 2413 Posted 16 January 2011 - 09:25 AM
cormac mac airt, on 13 January 2011 - 06:38 AM, said:
To sum it up, there is nothing between the Zeno Map and the actual contours of the area that would suggest "it fits like a glove".

I am not a specialist of this particular subject, but I would agree that the expression "fits like a glove" might not have been a good choice.

Then again, the 16th century cartographer did not have the software you used and could have mis-scaled and misplaced Frisland if/when he copied it from an older original into his map.

Mysteries that remain unexplained are the 'river' that seems to have existed and is now below sea-level and the so-called 'Darwin Mounds' (a.o.) near the south-east coast of the Far-Oer.

That alone would be worth an underwater exploration or detailed sonar scan, i.m.o.

### 2416 Posted 16 January 2011 - 09:46 AM
The Puzzler, on 16 January 2011 - 09:27 AM, said:
That's correct, I should have said transliteration and given a link too.

The link you just gave is to the edited/ corrupted version by Tony S.

### 2428 Posted 16 January 2011 - 02:57 PM
Otharus, on 28 December 2010 - 04:45 PM, said:
It would be interesting to examine a sample from this Rostringen dialect.
(...)
I found some old-Westfrisian, probably from the 12th century.

Otharus, on 05 January 2011 - 10:28 AM, said:
Can anyone provide a sample of this Old-Rustringian dialect that Knul believes to have been Halbertsma's inspiration for the OLB language?

If anyone else is interested in comparing three known versions of Old-Frisian (ca. 12th century), here's some links:

Londriuht (Rüstringer) (not dated as far as I know, but probably from ca. 12 century)

Landriocht (Westerlauwers)

Land- and Skeltana Riucht (Westfrisian)

The Rüstringer dialect does NOT seem to be more similar to the OLB language than the other dialects. The old-Westfrisian dialect actually seems to be closest related. At first sight all three varieties seem to share the language of the OLB as a common ancestor. A thorough examination may prove this to be right.

The following is a sample of the Rüstringer dialect, taken from the link above, with the there provided German translation as well as my improvised English translation. As usual I try to stay close to the original rather than write good English. I have converted the original into capitals for an easier comparison with the OLB language.

HIR IS ESKRIUIN,
Hier ist geschrieben,
Here is written,
THET WI FRISA ALSEK LONDRIUHT HEBBE AND HALDE,
daß wir Friesen solches Landrecht haben und halten,
that we Frisians have and hold such landright (-law),
SA GOD SELUA SETTE, AND EBAD,
wie Gott selber es setzte, und Er gebot,
as God himself put it, and commanded,
THET WI HILDE ALLE AFTE THING AND ALLE RIUHTE THING.
daß wir alle gesetzlichen Bestimmungen und alle Rechtssatzungen halten sollten.
that we will have all ... thing and all right-thing.
EFTER THES BEDON HIT ANDE BENNON ALLE IRTHKININGAR
Nachher geboten und befahlen es alle irdischen Könige
after these commands all Earth-kings have commanded (?)
EFTER ROMULO AND REMO, THET WERON THA TVENE BROTHER,
nach Romulus und Remus - das waren die beiden Brüder,
after Romulus and Remus, that were the twin brothers,
THER RUME EROST STIFTON, JULIUS AND OCTAUIANUS,
die Rom zuerst erbauten - Julius und Octavianus;
who first founded Rome, Julius and Octavianus,
ALSA HITON THA FORMA FIUWER KININGAR,
so hießen die ersten vier Könige,
that were the names of the first four kings,
THER TO RUME KININGAR WERON.
die zu Rom Könige waren.
who were kings to Rome.
THIT RIUHT SKREF GOD SELUA USE HERA, THA THET WAS,
Dieses Recht schrieb Gott selber, unser Herr, zu der Zeit,
This right (law) wrote God our lord himself, at the time,
THET MOYSES LATTE THET ISRAHELISKE FOLK THRUCH THENE RADA SE
als Moses das israelitische Volk durch das Rote Meer
that Moses the Israelian folk led through the Red See
AND OF THERE WILDA WOSTENE AND SE KOMON TO THA BERGE,
und aus der wilden Wüste führte, und sie an den Berg kamen,
and out of the wild desert and they came to the mountain,
THER IS EHETEN SYNAY.
der da heißt Sinai.
that is called Sinai.
THA FESTADE MOYSES TWIA FIUWERTIH DEGA AND NACHTA;
Da fastete Moses zweimal vierzig Tage und Nächte;
There Moses fasted twice fourty days and nights;
THEREFTER IEF GOD HIM TWA STENENA TEFLA,
danach gab Gott ihm zwei steinerne Tafeln,
thereafter God gave him two stone tables,
THER HI ON ESKRIUIN HEDE THA TIAN BODO;
auf die Er die zehn Gebote geschrieben hatte;
on-there he had written the ten commands;
THA SKOLDE HI LERA THA ISRAHELISKA FOLKE.
die sollte er das israelitische Volk lehren.
that he should teach the Israelian folk.

1. THET WAS THET EROST BOD:
Das war das erste Gebot:
That was the first command:
<DEUS TUUS VNUS EST.>
THIN GOD THET IS THI ENA,
Dein Gott ist der einzige.
Your God that is the one,
THER SKIPPERE IS HIMULRIKES AND IRTHRIKES,
der Schöpfer des Himmelreiches und des Erdreiches ist,
who is creator of the empires of heaven and earth,
THAM SKALTU THIANIA.
dem sollst du dienen.
him you shall serve.

2. THET WAS THET OTHER BOD:
Das war das zweite Gebot:
That was the other (second) command:
<NON ASSUMAS NOMEN DEI TUI IN UANUM.>
THU NE SKALT THINES GODIS NOMA NAWET IDLE VNTFA;
Du sollst den Namen deines Gottes nicht unnützlich führen;
You shall not use your God's name idle (useless);
THERMITHI SEND TI URBEDEN ALLE MENETHA.
deswegen sind dir alle Meineide verboten.
therewith are forbidden to you all false oaths.

3.THET WAS THET THREDDE BOD:
Das war das dritte Gebot:
That was the third command:
<SANCTIFICA DIEM SABBATI.>
THU SKALT FIRIA THENE HELEGA SUNNANDI,
Du sollst den heiligen Sonntag feiern,
You shall celebrate the holy sunday,
HWANTE GOD HIM RESTE,
denn Gott ruhte,
because God rested himself,
THA HI ESKIPIN HEDE HIMULRIKE AND IRTHRIKE,
als Er Himmelreich und Erdreich geschaffen hatte,
when he had created the empires of heaven and earth,
THERVMBE SKALTU IERNE FIRIA THENE HELEGA SUNNANDI.
darum sollst du gern den heiligen Sonntag feiern.
therefore you shall happily celebrate the holy sunday.

4. THET WAS THET FIARDE BOD:
Das war das vierte Gebot:
That was the fourth command:
<HONORA PATREM TUUM ET MATREM TUAM.>
THU SKALT ERIA THINNE FEDER AND THINE MODER
Du sollst deinen Vater und deine Mutter ehren,
You shall honor your father and your mother
THET TV THESTE LANGOR LIBBE.
damit du desto länger lebest.
so that you will live longer.

5. THET WAS THET FIFTE BOD:
Das war das fünfte Gebot:
That was the fifth command:
<NON OCCIDES.>
THU NE SKALT NENNE MONSLAGA DVA.
Du sollst keinen Totschlag verüben.
You shall not do manslaughter.

6. THET WAS THET SEXTE BOD:
Das war das sechste Gebot:
That was the sixth command:
<NON MECHABERIS.>
THU NE SKALT NEN HOR THA NEN OVERHOR DUA,
Du sollst keine Hurerei und auch keinen Ehebruch begehen,
You shall not do whore nor overwhore,
BUTA MITH THINERE AFTA WIUE SKALTU GODILIKE LIBBA.
sondern mit deinem ehelichen Weibe sollst du gottselig leben.
but with your real wife shall you live godlike.

7. THET WAS THET SIVGUNDE BOD:
Das war das siebente Gebot:
That was the seventh command:
<NON FURTUM FACIAS.>
THU NE SKALT NENE THIUVETHE DVA
Du sollst keinen Diebstahl begehen
You shall do no thieving
AND NE SKALT NAWET IERIA OVA THINES IVENKERSTENA HAUA,
und sollst nicht begehren deines Mitchristen Habe,
and shall never yearn over your fellow christans goods,
THER THI FON RIVCHTA NAWET WERTHA NE MVGUN.
die dir von Rechts wegen nicht zukommen mag.
that you may never obtain rightfully.

8. THET WAS THET ACHTUNDE BOD:
Das war das achte Gebot:
That was the eighth command
<NON FALSUM TESTIMONIVM DICES.>
THU NE SKALT NEN VNRIVCHT TIVCH DVA.
Du sollst kein unrichtiges Zeugnis ablegen.
You shall not do unjust testimonial.

9./10. THET WAS THET NIVGUNDE AND THET TIANDE BOD:
Das war das neunte und das zehnte Gebot:
That was the ninth and the tenth command:
<DILIGES DOMINUM DEUM TUUM EX TOTO CORDE TUO
ET PROXIMUM TUUM SICUT TE IPSUM.>
THV SKALT MINNIA GOD THINNE SKIPPERE
Du sollst lieben Gott, deinen Schöpfer,
You shall love God, your creator
MITH RENERE HIRTA AND THINNE IVINKERSTENA
mit reinem Herzen und deinen Mitchristen
with pure heart and your fellow christians
LIKE THI SELUA.
wie dich selbst.
like yourself.
THESSE TVA BODO BESLUTATH ALLE THA OTHERA BODO.
Diese zwei Gebote schließen alle andern Gebote in sich.
These two commands contain all the other commands.

THET SEND THA TIAN BODO,
Dies sind die zehn Gebote,
That are the ten commands,
THER GOD URIEF MOYSESE
die Gott dem Moses übergab
that God gave to Moses
AND HI FORTH LERDE THA ISRAHELISKA FOLKE.
und die dieser darauf das israelitische Volk lehrte.
and he taught forth the Israelian folk.
THESSE BODO HILDON HIA THA FIUWERTICH IERA,
Diese Gebote hielten sie die vierzig Jahre,
these commands they kept the fourty years,
THA SE ANDERE WOSTENE WERON,
da sie in der Wüste waren,
that they were in the desert,
AND LETHOGADE HIA FON MONIGERE NEDE
und Er erlöste sie aus mancher Not
and relieved them from many needs
AND LATTE SE AN THET LOND,
und führte sie in das Land,
and led them to the land,
THET FLAT FON MELOKON AND FON HUNIGE,
wo Milch und Honig floß,
that flows of milk and of honey,
THET WAS THET HELEGE LOND TO IHERUSALEM.
das war das heilige Land zu Jerusalem.
that was the holy land to Jerusalem.
ALSA LAT VSE HERA GOD ALLE THA TO THA HIMULRIKE, THER THA RIVCHTE FOLGIATH.
So führt Gott, unser Herr, alle, die das Recht befolgen, nach dem Himmelreich.
Like that our lord god leads all those to the empire of heaven, who follow the laws.
AND ALLE THA,
Und alle diejenigen,
And all those,
THER THET RIVHT IEFTHA ENICH RIVHT BREKATH,
die das Recht oder irgendwelches Recht verletzen -
who break the right (law) or any right,
HIT NE SE THET MA HIT THRVCH NATHA DVE,
es sei denn, daß man es tue, um Gnade zu üben,
be it when one does it through mercy (?),
THRUCH THET THA NATHA SEND MARRA THA THET RIVHT,
weil die Gnade größer ist als das Recht -
while the mercy is stronger than the law (?)
SA BISLUT HIA GOD ANDERE HILLE,
die wirft Gott in die Hölle,
so God will send to hell,
ALSA HI BESLAT THA EGYPTA LIODE ANDA RADA SE,
wie Er die Ägypter in das Rote Meer warf,
like he sent the Egyptian people in the Red Sea,
THA SE SINE LIODON SKATHIA WELDON, THA ISRAHELISKA FOLKE.
als sie seinen Leuten, dem israelitischen Volke, schaden wollten.
when they wanted to damage his people, the Israelian folk.

THEREFTER WARTH HIT EBEDEN TO HEBBANDE AND TO HALDANDE
Danach wurde geboten es zu wahren und zu halten,
Thereafter it was commanded to have and to hold
EROST FON THA PROFETON, THER ER KERSTES BERTHE WERON.
zuerst von den Propheten, die vor Christi Geburt waren.
first of the prophets, who were before Christ's birth.
THET WAS THI GODA MOYSES AND SIN BROTHER AARON,
Diese waren der gute Moses und sein Bruder Aaron,
That was the good Moses and his brother Aaron,
JOSUE AND SAMUEL, JSAIAS AND JEREMIAS.
Josua und Samuel, Jesaja und Jeremia.
Joshua and Samuel, Jesaias and Jeremias.

### 2461 Posted 17 January 2011 - 05:23 PM
Alewyn, on 15 January 2011 - 05:41 AM, said:
Otharus, have you heard anything further from Leeuwarden Library regarding the dating of the OLB's paper and ink?

I recieved an answer today from the Royal Library:
They are "currently busy writing a report of the research that has been done in the past years". I will recieve a copy of the article that is being written for a professional magazine at the end of this month. As soon as I have it, I will report.

### 2474 Posted 18 January 2011 - 02:51 AM
Another interesting article about historical Friesland (15th century):

Gallows in Late Medieval Frisia

by Johannes A. Mol

### 2480 Posted 18 January 2011 - 07:58 AM
Alewyn, on 17 January 2011 - 02:45 PM, said:
Apparently the Frisians of 6 {the 6th century} AD were already urbanized, very wealthy and imported many goods.
They were a strong political and military power. They were a skilled maritime nation who traded far and wide. This does not only imply staying above water but also means that they must have had exceptional navigational skills. These are not acquired in one or two generations and most likely they have been at it for centuries. (...)

Indications are, according to this article, that they even minted coins and manufactured sophisticated jewelry in 6 {the 6th century} AD. By all accounts then, it seems that they were much more developed than anybody else in the neighbourhood. (...)

This short article tells me that they (the Frisians) do not really have to “concoct” anything about their history. It is impressive by any standards and once again, the OLB does not seem unrealistic (i.e. to the open-minded).

Even after the correction, this is a thought I'd like to underline and invite us to rethink a few times. (I wrote this before reading Alewyn's last post, which I totally support.)

### 2845 Posted 23 January 2011 - 01:52 PM
To provide some more 'context' to the Oera Linda-book, and for future reference, here's a selection of transliterated fragments from the Chronyk van Friesland, printed by Abraham Ferwerda, Leeuwarden 1742.

The fact that Scarlensis published in Latin already shows that he was working in the Roman tradition. His claims of Frisian kings being related to the people of Israel and the Trojans (Romans) and Frankish kings also that his readers ('pious' and 'noble' Frisians/ dutch: 'van Adel') will have wanted a piece of the pie of power. This explains why the 19th century Frisian elite did not welcome the OLB; they felt insulted.
Part 1 ~ Introduction
Part 2 ~ Giants from Albion, Friso, Saxo & Bruno
Part 3 ~ King Radbodus from Medenblik  Part 4 ~ Christening, ca. 800 ADPart 5 ~ Westfriesland lost, 13th century
Part 6 ~ Eastfriesland lost, 15th century
(see separate post)

### 2844 Posted 23 January 2011 - 01:47 PM
Tony S., on 22 January 2011 - 06:38 PM, said:
Not it that sense, but the Frisian word wralda is simply, in modern English, "world". It literally means "old man" (the element wr meaning "man", rather than being related to the German ur, as suggested earlier).

Please give one example from OLB where "WR", "VVR", "VR" or "UR" means "man".

Like I suggested before, it would be good if people who like to call themselves OLB-'researchers' would read the original.

Letter Hidde: WRLANDISK = overlandish
Letter Liko: VR FRYDOM = over Frydom
P.1: VR.ET ÉLLE LAND = over the whole land
P.5: WRA FARA SÉTOCHTA = over far seajourneys
P.17: VR ÉNE STATE = over one state
P.21: INVR THAT ÉLE LAND = (in-)over the whole land
P.26: TILTHJU THÉR VR NÉN ORLOCH NE KVME = so no war will come over that
P.30: VMBE WRA MERKA TO GA = to go over the market
... and so forth.

Your "wr" is probably related to the Latin word "VIR", meaning man, and may be found back in the words "virile"; manly (dutch: viriel) and "werewolf" (dutch: weerwolf).

### 2863 Posted 24 January 2011 - 02:31 AM
Tony S., on 23 January 2011 - 03:51 PM, said:
Since I regard the OLB, potentially at least, as actual history, I see no problem in using established facts in its interpretation.

If the OLB indeed is "actual history", than its language is much older than Latin and many "established facts" (???) from the historical and etymological 'sciences' will have to be revised.

Besides, that the WR in WR.ALDA would mean "man" is not an "established fact", but merely a (very poor) theory.

I prefer to use logic and common sense in the interpretation of the OLB.

Fryan: MAN
English: man
Dutch: man
German: Mann
Swedish: man

N.B.
Over de Linden
Oera Linda (Dutch)
Ura Linda (German)
VVRA Linda (Overwijn)
In English it would be: "Oora Linda"

You are making the same mistake here as when you tried to reason how the original meaning of FODER/ FÉDER is "father" (as in "dad"; Fryan: "TAT"), while the (untranslated) OLB clearly explains how this is a later meaning (in Rika's letter).