German translation of creation myth

(This was also posted in the forum)

For our German speaking readers, here's a new translation of the FORMA SKÉDNISE (creation myth), compared to Wirth's version of 1933.

The new translation was made without having seen the one by Wirth.

"WR-ALDA" in the new version is feminine, because in German, the word for "world" (Welt) is.

Note that Wirth simply left out lines 27-28.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

OLB Creation Myth ~ original text; with line numbers (p.6)
German translation by Herman Wirth (1933; p.16)
New German translation by Ulrike (without having seen Wirth's)

12 THAT IS VSA FORMA SKÉDNISE.
Dies ist unsere älteste Geschichte
Das ist unsere früheste Geschichte:

13 WR.ALDA THAM ALLÉNA GOD ÀND ÉVG IS. MAKADE T.ANFANG.
Wralda, der allein gut und ewig ist, machte den Anfang,
WR-ALDA (Ur-Alte/Welt), die alleine gut und ewig ist, machte den Anfang.

14 DANA KÉM TID. TID WROCHTE ALLE THINGA. ÁK JRTHA.
dann kam die Zeit; die Zeit schuf alle Dinge, auch die Erde (Irtha).
Danach kam die Zeit. Die Zeit brachte alle Dinge hervor, auch die Erde.

15 JRTHA BÀRDE ALLE GÀRSA KRÚDON ÀND BÔMA.
Irtha gebar alle Gräser, Kräuter, Bäume,
Die Erde gebar alle Gräser, Kräuter und Bäume.

16 ALLET DJARA KWIK ÀND ALLE.T ÀRGE KWIK.
all das liebe und all das arge Getier.
Alle teuren Tiere und alle argen Tiere.

17 ALHWAT GOD ÀND DJAR IS. BROCHT HJU BY DÉGUM
Alles, was gut und lieblich ist, brachte sie am Tage
Alles, was gut und teuer ist, brachte sie bei Tag hervor

18 ÀND ALHWAT KWÁD ÀND ÀRG IS. BROCHT HJU THES NACHTIS FORTH.
und alles, was übel und arg ist, brachte sie zur Nachtzeit hervor.
und alles, was böse und arg ist, brachte sie bei Nacht hervor.

19 AFTER.ET TWILIFTE JOL.FÉRSTE BÀRDE HJU THRJA MANGÉRTA
Nach dem zwölften Julfest gebar sie drei Maide:
Nach dem zwölften JOL-Fest brachte sie drei Mädchen hervor.

20 LYDA
WÀRTH UT GLÍANDE
FINDA
WÀRTH UT HÉTA. ÀND
FRYA
WARTH UT WARME STOF.
Lyda ward aus glühendem,
Finda ward aus heißem und
Frya aus warmem Staube
Lyda wurde aus glühendem,
Finda wurde aus heißem, und
Frya wurde aus warmem Staub gemacht.

26 THÁ HJA BLÁT KÉMON SPISDE WR.ALDA HJAM MITH SINA ÁDAMA.
Da sie bloß kamen, speiste Wralda sie mit seinem Odem.
Als sie bloß hervorkamen, speiste WR-ALDA sie mit ihrem Atem,

27 TILTHJU THA MÀNNESKA AN HIM SKOLDE BVNDEN WÉSA.
- - - (left out by Wirth)
sodass die Menschen an sie gebunden sein würden.

28 RING AS HJA RIP WÉRON KRÉJON HJA FRÜCHDA ÀND NOCHTA ANDA DRÁMA.
- - - (left out by Wirth)
Sobald sie reif waren, kamen Freude/Früchte und Genüsse/Nüsse in ihre Träume.

29 WR.ALDAS OD TRÀD TO RA BINNA.
Od (Gottes Odem) trat zu ihnen ein
WR-ALDAs OD (?) trat in sie ein.

30 ÀND NW BÀRDON EK TWILIF SVNA ÀND TWILIF TOGETHERA.
und nun gebar jede zwölf Söhne und zwölf Töchter,
Und nun gebaren sie jede zwölf Söhne und zwölf Töchter,

31 EK JOL.TID TWÉN.
eine jegliche Julzeit zween.
zu jeder JOL-Zeit Zwillinge.

32 THÉROF SEND ALLE MÀNNESKA KÉMEN.
Davon sind alle Menschen gekommen.
Daraus sind alle Menschen hervorgekommen.

FRYAS STANDSKRIFT

Notes
- W is not really a seperate letter, but actually VV (double V). V is used both as U (e.g. FLVX) and as our V (MINERVA), W is used both as our W (e.g. WÉPEN) and as double-U (e.g. WR-ALDA).
- The letters with accents like Û, Ü, Ô, Í are chosen for now to seperate them from the ones without, but I don't have a good reason to use these ones specifically. The O with a dot in the center is very rare and evolved in later Dutch into "oi" (v.b. "Oirschot").
- In modern Dutch, Û mostly changed into "ui", and Ü into "eu".
- C is only used in combination with H as CH. In Latin, the letter C was used for the K-sound. In Greek, the CH-sound was represented by the letter X (chi).
- Other languages that have a special letter for the "th" sound are: Greek, Icelandic, Gothic, Anglosaxon. It is sometimes (in the middle of a word) interchangeable with D (e.g. thrvchtham => thrvchdam).
- The letter for "Gz" is rare and almost only used in "SEGzA"; to say and "FRÜGzDA"; fruits.'
- The only double-vowel combinations that are used are AV (e.g. NAVT) and ÉI (e.g. DÉI, WÉI).

NOCHTA

(This was also posted in the forum on November 6)

OL has four different uses of the word.

The following translations are listed: Ottema and Sandbach (1872/1876), Jensma (2006) and De Heer (2008)

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

I) Literally, with translations like: nut, corn, fruit, crop, grain

Dutch: noot (plur.: noten)
German: Nuss
Danish: nød
Swedish: nöt
Norwegian: nøtt
Icelandic: hneta
French: noix
Spanish: nuez
Portuguese: noz
Italian: noce
Latin: nux

Fragments in OLB and their translations:

[047/09]
ANDA BÁMA ÀND TRÉJON WAXTON FRÜGzDA ÁND NOCHTA THÉR NW VRLÉREN SEND
[O+S p.67]
Ottema, De Heer: "vruchten en ooft"; Jensma: "vruchten en genoten"
Sandbach: "fruits"

[136/04]
JRTHA HETH HJARA BLOD DRUNKEN. MITH THÀT BLOD FODE HJU FRÜCHDA ÀND NOCHTA
[O+S p.185]
Ottema: "vruchten en koorn"; Jensma: "vruchten en noten"; De Heer: "vruchten en planten (genoegen)"
Sandbach: "corn and fruits"

[167/11]
THÉR BLOJATH ÀND WAXATH THA SELVA FRUCHTA ÀND NOCHTA AS AN THA ÁST.SIDE
[O+S p.225]
Ottema: "vruchten en granen"; Jensma: "vruchten en genoten"; De Heer: "vruchten en noten"
Sandbach: "fruits and crops"

[167/29]
BY VS WERTHAT NOCHTA FONDEN LIK BERN HÁVEDA SA GRÁT
[O+S p.227]
Ottema, Jensma, De Heer: "noten"
Sandbach: "nuts"

[189/15]
JRTHA WARTH BIHWÍLA ÁK AL.FÉDSTRE HÉTEN. THRVCHDAM HJU ALLE FRÜCHD ÀND NOCHTA BÉRTH
[O+S p.229]
Ottema: "vruchten en granen"; Jensma: "vruchten en noten"; De Heer: "vruchten en genoegen"
Sandbach: "fruits and grains"

[189/19]
NE SKOLDE HJU NÉNE FRÜCHD NER NOCHT NAVT NE BÉRA BÍDAM WRALDA HJA NÉNE KREFTA NE JÉF
[O+S p.229]
Ottema: "geene vruchten en granen"; Jensma: "geen vruchten en noten"; De Heer: "geen vruchten noch genoegen"
Sandbach: "not any fruit or grain"

In all above cases NOCHT/NOCHTA can simply be translated as noot/noten (nut/nuts).

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

II) Metaphorically, with translations like: pleasure, delight, diversion, cheerfulness, happiness, satisfaction

Dutch (related words): genot, geneugte, genoegen, genieting, neiging, neut, neuk
German: Genuss, Vergnügen
Danish: fornøjelse
Swedish: njutning
Finnish: nautinto
Icelandic: ánægja

[006/29]
RING AS HJA RIP WÉRON KRÉJON HJA FRÜCHDA ÀND NOCHTA ANDA DRÁMA
[O+S p.13]
Ottema: "vermaak en genoegen"; Jensma: "vreugde en genoten"; De Heer: "vreugde en genoegen"
Sandbach: "pleasure and delight"

[008/27]
SACH HJU HJRA BÀRN EN FRYA.S VRMORDE SÁ SWOL HJRA BOSM FON NOCHT
[O+S p.15]
Ottema, Jensma, De Heer: "genoegen"
Sandbach: "pleasure"

[092/10]
HJU WILDE RÉDER ENNEN BOSTA HA MITH ALL JOI ÀND NOCHTA THÉR ER ANEBONDEN SEND
[O+S p.129]
Ottema: "vreugde en genoegens"; Jensma: "vreugde en plezier"; De Heer: "vreugde en genoegen"
Sandbach just left this out! (joy and pleasure)

[093/22]
NINMAN NÉDE DIGER THAN TO ÁKANE SINA NOCHT
[O+S p.131]
Ottema: "vermaak"; Jensma, De Heer: "plezier"
Sandbach: "diversion"

[093/28]
NOCHT RUNDE WÉI. THA WÁKENDOM NILDE NAVT NE KÉRA
[O+S p.131]
Ottema: "vermaak"; Jensma: "plezier"; De Heer: "genoegen"
Sandbach: "Cheerfulness"

[094/06]
THAHWILA THÉR ALREK IN NOCHT BÁJADE WAS VRRÉD LÁND
[O+S p.131]
Ottema, De Heer: "in vreugde baadde"; Jensma: "in Plezier baadde"
Sandbach: "was intoxicated with pleasure"

[137/32]
THA MÀNNISKA [...] SA FÉLO NOCHT TO JÁN. AS TO BI NÁKA IS
[O+S p.187]
Ottema, De Heer: "genoegen te geven"; Jensma: "plezier te geven"
Sandbach: "make happy"

[139/11]
IN SIN KÉNINGKRIK [...] HWÉR FRÜ IS ÀND NOCHTA SEND
[O+S p.189]
Ottema, De Heer: "vreugde en genietingen"; Jensma: "vreugde en genot"
Sandbach: "joy and happiness"

[139/20]
THÀT THÉRA THÉR HÍR VP IRTHA THÀT MÁSTE LÉDEN HÉDE. NÉIMELS THA MÁSTA NOCHTA HÀVA SKOLDE
[O+S p.189]
Ottema, De Heer: "vreugde"; Jensma: "plezieren"
Sandbach: "happiness"

[149/18]
HO FRISO ALLE TO BIDOBBE WISTE TO NOCHT FON BÉDE PARTJA
[O+S p.203]
Ottema, Jensma, De Heer: "tot genoegen"
Sandbach: "to the satisfaction"

[153/28]
THÉR FON HÉDON THA WIVA NOCHT. THA FÁMNA NOCHT. THA MANGÉRTNE NOCHT. ÀND THÉROF HÉDON AL HJARA MÉGUM NOCHT
[O+S p.207]
Ottema: "hadden genoegen"; Jensma, De Heer: "hadden plezier"
Sandbach: "were pleased"

[162/17]
THA HÉINDE AND FÉRHÉMANDE SENDA.BODON HÉDON NOCHT FON VR THÀT SKRIFT
[O+S p.219]
Ottema: "hadden genoegen van"; Jensma: "hadden plezier over"; De Heer: "hadden voldoening van"
Sandbach: "were pleased with"

In all above cases NOCHT/NOCHTA can simply be translated as genot/genietingen or geneugte(n).
The Dutch words "genot" and "geneugte" associate more with (physical) pleasure, while the words "plezier" and "vermaak" are more about (innocent) fun.
The difference is subtle, but it explains why the translators (in many cases) avoid a more litteral translation.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

III) Derived from metaphor (I don't know a term for this), translated as: enough

Dutch: genoeg (note: "nokken" = slang for to stop/ quit)
German: genug
Danish, Norwegian: nok
Icelandic: nóg

[057/16]
INKA SÉIDE THAT.I SIN NOCHT HÉDE FON AL.ET FINDA.S.FOLK
[O+S p.81]
Ottema, Jensma: "zijn bekomst had van"; De Heer: "genoeg had van"
Sandbach: "had enough of"

[063/18]
AS HJU THÉR HJRA NOCHT FON HÉDE WERPTE HJU HJRA SELVA ANDA ÀRMA THÉRA GOLUM
[O+S p.89]
Ottema, Jensma: "haar bekomst van had"; De Heer: "haar genoegen van had"
Sandbach: "had enough of"

This beautifully shows where the expression comes from.
I would prefer the translations by De Heer.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

IV) As a personal name (not to be translated)

[133/32]
KONE.RÉD ALSA HÉT MIN FORMA [...] ÀND THA JONGESTE NOCHT
[O+S p.183]
Ottema, Sandbach, De Heer: "Nocht"; Jensma: "Plezier"

Forum # 13 (okt. 29 - nov. 9, 2011)

Posted 29 October 2011 - 05:09 PM
Menno and Abramelin, togethter you have convinced me that AKEN in OLB most probably refers to a BURG in the present Den Haag area.

Knul, on 28 October 2011 - 08:03 PM, said:
The name Ockenburg seems te come from Ockenberg, not burg. s. http://www.landgoed-ockenburg.net/ It has not been a borough (burg), but a residence from the 15th-17th century.

The site says:
"Sommige bronnen spreken van een landgoed "Ockenberghe" dat in de 15e eeuw in de buurt van Wateringen zou hebben gelegen, maar aan het begin van de 80 jarige oorlog is ontruimd."
=>
"Some sources mention an estate "Ockenberghe" that would have existed in the 15th century near Wateringen, but was cleared when the 80 year war started."

IMO it's more likely that the original name refered to a BURG (citadel) than to a BERG (mountain, hill). Anyway a BURG would be built on a hill (BERG) if there was one.

The estates may very well have been named after a historical site that had disappeared (long) before they were built.

The counts of Holland didn't choose just any random site to settle and it's indeed a smal step from (H)AKEN to HAGE(N).

The Aacken (Aken) in Germany may have been named after this older (and more startegically placed) AKEN, like Bremen would have been named after Brêmes and Hamburg after Hames-Boucres.

### Posted 29 October 2011 - 05:23 PM
Knul, on 28 October 2011 - 08:18 PM, said:
I found youur list of toponyms and will include that in my excel-scheme. ... If you have some addenda right now, please post them here.

You can include the ones you agree with and don't need to mention my name, as I copied most from Ottema.
Yes, I'll see if I have any changes.

Quote
I hope your list of modern expressions will include English words in the OLB as yes, look, boy, merry merry, run away, together, etc.

I don't think I'll make that list (not soon that is), specially since I personally don't think there are words in OLB that are 'too modern' for the OLB to be authentic. It was more like a suggestion.

### Posted 29 October 2011 - 05:45 PM
Knul, on 29 October 2011 - 12:16 AM, said:
Anyway this Ockenburg is already much more close than the Aken, which you find everywhere for Aachen (D).

It's a significant find indeed and it changes our view of 'South-Vlieland'.

Quote
Similarly the Gertmannen, named after Carmania (Punjab) and to be identified as the Groningers instead of Germans.

Carmania was named after the Gertmen that were named after Gért (P's daughter).

Can you explain why you think the Gertmen became Groningers and not Germans?
It does not make sense to me.

Quote
Freedom was given by Charles the Great and taken by the Dutch count Floris V.

This is actually not an accepted fact, but part of the so-called Frisian 'fantastic' historiography (mythology).

### Here are some I canged my mind about:

Otharus, on 26 October 2010 - 06:54 PM, said:
AKEN - Aken (Aachen) a burg located at or near present The Hague
ALMANLAND - Ameland ?
BUDA - Budapest ?
FLYLAND - Vlieland not the present Wadden-Island
KATTABURCH - Kattenburcht, Kassel ?
MANNAGARA FORDA - nowaday Munster (Westfalia) ?
MANNAGARDAWRDA - Munster ?
NY FRYASBURCH - Freiburg (Brisgau) ?
NORTHLAND - Norway Noordland

### Posted 29 October 2011 - 10:16 PM
Abramelin, on 29 October 2011 - 09:52 PM, said:
But I am quite sure you didn't like this estate came into existance in the 17th century, heh.

Wrong guess.
It's obvious that this estate is younger, and the original AKENBURG does not have to have been exactly on that spot.
Names are usually recycled many times

### Posted 29 October 2011 - 11:59 PM
Abramelin, on 29 October 2011 - 11:01 PM, said:
But there never was an 'Aken Burg' thousands or a thousand of years ago to begin with, right?

We don't know yet.
It's possible.
There must have been something significant before the counts of (what would later be called) Holland decided to settle there.

### Posted 30 October 2011 - 11:10 AM
Knul, on 29 October 2011 - 11:59 PM, said:
Almanland p.44, 84, 104 refers to Almenum, which according to Ocko Scharlensis just before 1256 became a town (now part of Harlingen).

English Wiki says: "Almenum according to legend is the site of the first Christian church in Friesland built in 777 AD by Gustavus Forteman."

Ottema and Jensma both interpreted it as Ameland.

My opinion is that both Ameland and Almenum may be etymologically related to Almanland, but it is not sure that Almanland refers to 19th or 13th century Ameland or Almenum.

Fact is, that topynyms sometimes move and change through the ages.

### Posted 31 October 2011 - 06:16 PM
Knul, on 31 October 2011 - 04:57 PM, said:
As it is impossible to place excel on this side, I have placed the concept register on www.rodinbook.nl. see on top UM (Unexplained Mysteries). Please complete the scheme.

Thanks again for the effort, but as I asked you before, please leave me out of the table.

I'm surprised to see "Aken = Aachen" under my name, as a few posts back I congratulated you for helping me change my mind about that.

To me it does not make sense to place the obvious ones (that all agree about, like "ALPA") in all rows.

It's much better to only mention the various views if there is no agreement.

### Posted 01 November 2011 - 11:37 PM
Knul, on 01 November 2011 - 10:10 PM, said:
Misselja is a new challange !
... If the author says it is an island, he means that it is an island. It is pretty sure, that Marseille was not an island. Ergo: Misselja cannot be Marseille. However, there is another island in the Mediterranean Sea, which can be identified as Misselja. That is Mallorca or Majorca, which is the largest island of the Balears, lying opposite the coast (kad) of Spain. The history of this island is pretty similar to that of Marseille, founded by the Greeks, conquered by the Romans and then conquered by the Carthagenians (Phonicians). The island of Mallorca had the same function on this side of the Pillars of Hercules as Cadiz on the other side and could be indicated as a volksplanting (colony) of the Frisians as well. Mallorca was the nucleus of the trade in the Western part of the Mediterranean. One should not forget, that shipping in the old times was not crossing the seas, but faring along the coast. After entering the Mediterranean Sea Mallorca was the first stop after the Street of Gibraltar v.v. when leaving the Mediterranean Sea Mallorca was the last stop before entering the street of Gibraltar. I haven't yet located the name Misselja. Maybe the Roman name of Mallorca was Messala (it was a Roman custom to put the name of a conquered land after one's name). The name Messala, which comes close to Misselja, is frequently used in Roman names, also as Messalina. As this Mallorca would be a Frisian volksplanting (colony) like Cadiz, it makes sense, that the case Misselja is discussed by the Eremother of Texland.

Most interesting!

You may very well be right.

It makes sense to me.

Abramelin, on 01 November 2011 - 11:06 PM, said:
Mallorca or Majorca doesn't sound like Massilia/Misselia at all.

That does not mean that OLB's "MIS-SELLJA" can't refer to what is now Mallorca.

Noord-Holland doesn't sound like West-Flyland...

Names change and sometimes move.

### Posted 01 November 2011 - 11:55 PM
Abramelin, on 01 November 2011 - 11:41 PM, said:
Marseilles/Massalia still is not an island, and it never was.

That is why I agree with Knul that it can't be OLB's MIS-SELLJA.
But it's possible that Massalia (the later Marseilles) was named after the earlier (and more important) island Missellia (the later Mallorca).

### Posted 02 November 2011 - 12:06 AM
In this thread we have seen that Oldfrisian offers countless possible explanations for toponyms, mythological names and ancient tribes.

Some of these explanations totally make sense to all of us, others sound crazy or silly to some.

Is there any other language that offers so many possible etymologies?

### Posted 02 November 2011 - 10:17 AM
The Puzzler, on 02 November 2011 - 04:45 AM, said:
Middle English cappe < Old Northern French cape, variant of Old French chape < Latin caput (“head”). ... Your nose is nesos - a peninsula that juts out, like your nose

For the record:

Nose
Dutch = neus
German: Nase
Swedish: näsa
Danish: næse
Norwegian: nese

Latin "caput" (head)
Dutch: kop
German: Kopf

I don't have Scandinavian dictionaries here, but I'm quite sure that those lands (that were never part of the Roman empire) have similar (slang?) words for head.

### Posted 02 November 2011 - 05:39 PM
Abramelin, on 02 November 2011 - 01:22 PM, said:
I don't think people will name their city as being painfull, but the "Ache" in the meanning of waters and streams and so on seems more likely: people tend to name their cities according to either who founded it or to where it is located.

Possible meaning of "AKEN".
According to Jensma (2006, p.75) the Oldfrisian dictionary of Mr. M. de Haan Hettema gives: bekend (known).

OLB p.2 line 13
THACH THÀT ELLA IS JO SELVA A.KEN

Ottema p.7
Doch dat alles is u zelven ook bekend

Sandbach p.7
This is well known to you

Jensma
Maar dat alles is u zelf bekend

### Posted 02 November 2011 - 07:16 PM
Abramelin, on 02 November 2011 - 05:59 PM, said:
But those are 2 words A and KEN.

A.KEN = A-ken = Aken

There's plenty of examples of words in OLB that originally were two words with a dot in between, and later became one word.

Random example p.3 line 17: ROND.DÉL = rondeel (http://nl.wikipedia....ondeel_(vesting))

In De Haan Hettema's dictionary "aken" was spelled as one word, meaning: known.

So now the meaning of AKEN is known. LOL

### Posted 02 November 2011 - 07:47 PM
Abramelin, on 02 November 2011 - 07:36 PM, said:
It's "Martegue", you see it, yes? Or "Maguelone", another island?
Please say 'yes'.

The candidate for Missellja must not only be an island, but also a strategic spot, with good harbor facilities etc.

That's what I like about Knul's hypothesis.

Mallorca is the first big island in the Mediterranean, coming from the Strait of Gibraltar and has a wonderful bay on the southside, where the capital Palma is located, a major seaport.

### Posted 02 November 2011 - 08:10 PM
Abramelin, on 02 November 2011 - 08:01 PM, said:
BUT... it's not close to any coast.
And THAT is what the OLB tells us.
And it's NOT in the northern part of the Med, but in the western part of the Med.

I finally took the effort to check the text.
You are right.

INNER NORTHLIKSTE HERNE FON THA MIDDEL-SÉ.
THÉR LÉID EN É.LAND BY THÉRE KÁD

### Posted 03 November 2011 - 07:06 PM
Knul, on 03 November 2011 - 01:51 PM, said:
Jensma
1. denies that Cornelis over de Linden did not understand the manuscript as he wrote to Verwijs,
2. denies that Leendert over de Linden stated that his father Cornelis over de Linden did not write the OLB,
3. denies the role of Ernest Stadermann,
4. denies that Verwijs called the OLB a hoax in a letter to Johan Winkler,
5. denies that Haverschmidt wrote to Leendert over the Linden, that he did not participate and even didn't know Cornelis over de Linden.

If one denies, what people have written, one can proof anything.

Please reconsider the witness reports of:
(See quote below.)

1. Schoolteacher Cornelis Wijs in 1876 about 1831.
2. Two schoolteachers in a notary statement, about 1848.
3. Naval officer W.M. Visser, about 1854.
4. Jacob Munnik about 1845.
5. Schoolmaster M.K. de Jong, about ca. 1837.
6. Hein Kofman and his mother Cornelia Kofman-Reuvers, about 1845.

The statements from these people suggest or confirm the existence of the manuscript in the Over de Linden family, long before it would have been created according to the hoax theories.

My question to the forum and specially to Knul is: how can these witness reports be explained?

Otharus, on 12 May 2011 - 01:08 PM, said:
Yes, there are several witness reports that indicate that in the 30's and 40's of the 19th century, the manuscript existed already and/or that the Over de Lindens believed that they stemmed from an ancient noble Frisian family.
[...]
1. Schoolteacher Cornelis Wijs stated in 1876 that in 1831 he had heard Jan Over de Linden (1785-1835), the father of Cornelis, boost about descending from "the oldest family in the world".
2. Two other schoolteachers made an official statement with a notary, that in 1848 they had heard Cornelis Over de Linden junior (1833-1868) boost about virtually the same (being from ancient noble Frisian descent), as well as his father (Cornelis senior) knowing this from "a book with strange letters".
3. Naval officer W.M. Visser had made a diary note on 23-12-1854 of having heard from Cornelis Over de Linden that the latter had told him about the book and that it was written "in a strange language and a strange script".
[...]
5. New information
Translated from Molenaar (1949), a quote from Jacob Munnik, who was married to a pre-marital daughter of Cornelis Over de Linden's first wife (which makes him Cornelis' step-son-in-law.)

"In 1845 (a year before my marriage), C. Over de Linden, bookbinder Stadermann and me went on a little tour together (to Enkhuizen). We visited an old skipper, where Over de Linden's mother was a housekeeper. C.O.L. spoke with his mother and the old man in private and when we had left Enkhuizen, he said: "It's a bloody shame; the old one has an old book that belongs to us and he does not want to hand it over. It proves that our family is old." He also spoke about forested areas, like royal domains with many Linden-trees etcetra. "But it is old-Frisian; that's the bloody problem!", Cornelis had said.
For a few years he has been complaining about it (from 1845-1847), but in the meantime he had started to learn the old-Frisian language."

I agree with author Molenaar that Munnik probably had confused the old skipper with Hendrik Reuvers, the husband of aunt Aafje, whom they will also have visited.

6. More new information
Again from Molenaar (1949), who writes about an article in the Friesche Courant of 30-4-1877, written by M.K. de Jong, schoolmaster in the village Kooten. He states that a trustworthy fellow villager had declared that "about 40 years ago" (ca. 1837) "his uncle Leendert Over de Linden had told him that there were some very old manuscripts kept by the Over de Linden family."
7. Relevant to know is also that Hein Kofman (1853-1933), who was said to have heard that Cornelis Over de Linden had stolen the OLB from the house of his parents, lived all his life in the house of his parents Rijkent Kofman and Cornelia Reuvers (1818-1878), which had also been the house of his grandparents Hendrik Reuvers and Aafje Over de Linden (1798-1849) as well as the house of Andries Over de Linden (1759-1820) and IJfje Schols. This means that since the death of Andries Over de Linden in 1820, the manuscript has stayed in the same house until Cornelis took it to Den Helder in 1848.

Cornelia Kofman-Reuvers would have stated that "without doubt the manuscript had been kept here [in her house] in a corner, covered with dust." She did not remember how long it had stayed there and when it had been moved to Den Helder.

### Posted 03 November 2011 - 07:40 PM
Abramelin, on 03 November 2011 - 07:38 PM, said:
Otharus, all these sources are members of the Over de Linden family.
And those who are not members of the family are close acquaintances or friends of the family.

So you think they were all lying?

Schoolteacher Cornelis Wijs, the two other schoolteachers, naval officer W.M. Visser and schoolmaster M.K. de Jong were not family nor known to be close acquaintances.

Did you have a source for that?

Jacob Munnik, Hein Kofman and Cornelia Kofman-Reuvers were family, but the Kofmans were not on Cornelis' side; Hein Kofman claimed that Cornelis had stolen the manuscript from his parents.

Do you have an explanation for that?

### Posted 03 November 2011 - 10:27 PM
Abramelin, on 03 November 2011 - 09:29 PM, said:
I have another question: could you give us the sources of this info (in Dutch)?
Not that I don't trust you, but maybe I can squeeze a bit more out of it.

My sources are "De Gemaskerde God" by Jensma and "Wie heeft het OLB geschreven?" by J.B. Vinkers.

I quoted and translated extensively in earlier posts.
This might be a good one to start with:

Otharus, on 19 April 2011 - 08:02 AM, said:
Some first attempts towards a new OLB theory
Earlier we have read about Cornelis Over de Linden's version of the story of how he got the OLB manuscript from his aunt Aafje in Enkhuizen.
Let's first have a look at three other versions by other people.
(Translated from DGG p.243)
[...]

### Posted 03 November 2011 - 11:15 PM
Knul, on 03 November 2011 - 10:51 PM, said:
Of course I know the witness reports. [...]

You didn't answer the question.
How do they fit into your theory?
Were all the witnesses lying?

### Posted 04 November 2011 - 08:24 AM
Knul, on 04 November 2011 - 12:16 AM, said:
You tell me, if he lied or not.

I did, long ago:
Otharus, on 19 April 2011 - 08:02 AM, said:
Some first attempts towards a new OLB theory
[...]
Because Jensma believes that Cornelis was involved in the creation of the OLB, his theory about the above is that:
1) There must have been some old family document but this was lost as it can not have been OLB.
2) Cornelis' version of the story is a total lie.

I believe that some parts Cornelis' version of the story may be lies, but not all.

One important element of his version is that his uncle, Hendrik Reuvers (1796-1845) did not want Cornelis to have the book. This would explain why Cornelis in 1845, after his uncle's death, tried to retrieve the book.

Lie #1 of Cornelis: He DID know of the OLB and has made efforts to get it. (In Wirth's publication, it says that before the OLB was translated, Cornelis believed that it contained information about a family treasure.)

It also means that Hendrik Reuvers knew that the book was important, he may have known what exactly it was about, as he was 24 when his father-in-law, Andries Over de Linden, died in 1820. Since aunt Aafje was ilitterate, it is more likely that Andries discussed the book with Hendrik and maybe taught him to read it. Hendrik's daughter Cornelia/Kee married to Rijkent Kofman in 1838, so Reuvers had enough time to pass on knowledge to his son-in-law.

Noteworthy is that when Aafje Over de Linden married Hendrik Reuvers, they asked her cousin Jan Over de Linden (1776-1858) to be a witness, and not her older brother Jan (1785-1836).

Since his aunt was ilitterate and since Hein Kofman later said that Cornelis had stolen the book (while his brother Jacob Kofman became an 'apostle'), and since Hajo Last knew a version where Cornelis got the book from his cousin Kee, I suspect a second lie:

Lie #2 of Cornelis: He did not recieve the OLB from his aunt Aafje Reuvers-Over de Linden, but from her daughter Cornelia Kofman-Reuvers, probably using force or maybe he even took it without her consent. This would explain his story "sitting at the table", more that 13 years later (between 1861 and 1867). He felt he needed to stress the fact that she had given it to him and that this had been the will of his grandfather.

With everything I know so far, I find it most likely, that:

1. The OLB had been passed on in 1820 from Andries Over de Linden to his son-in-law Hendrik Reuvers, who already had two unlawful children with his daughter Aafje, whom he would officially marry in 1821.
2. After Hendrik's death in 1845, the book was passed on to his son-in-law Rijkent Kofman, the husband of Cornelia Reuvers.
3. Between 1845 and 1848, Cornelis Over de Linden tried to get the book, in which he succeeded in 1848.
4. Between 1848 and 1876 Cornelis tried to decipher and translate the book himself, and when he came to the conclusion that the book did not contain information about a family-treasure, he gradually sent it to specialists, possibly hoping that at least it would increase their status and social position.

### Posted 04 November 2011 - 03:47 PM
Knul, on 04 November 2011 - 01:02 PM, said:
I think there was a family quarrel about the inheritance of the bookshop and printery of the founder Jan over de Linden between the Enkhuizen branche of the family and the Den Helder branche.

Why do you think this?
Is it just a thought or do you have a source?

Quote
They returned with empty hands since Hendrik Reuvers, husband of Aunt Aafje, opposed to a deal. Obviously aunt Aafje had been appointed to settle the inheritance.

This is speculation and certainly not "obvious".

Hendrik Reuvers died 15-2-1845. The witness reports say that in 1845 they visited Cornelis' MOTHER, not his aunt. His mother was working for (and living with) an old skipper and he would have opposed to handing over the manuscript.

We may suspect that the witness confused the aunt for the mother and Reuvers for the skipper, but we should be careful not to present our assumptions as facts here.

Quote
It has been Cornelis over de Linden, who said that he received the OLB from aunt Aafje (letter to Verwijs, september 1867) as a family treasure, but you think her daughter Cornelia gave it to Cornelis over de Linden.

That is not just my thought.

Cornelis' story was inconsistent. He had told Hajo Last that he had received it from his cousin Cornelia Reuvers.

I have been very careful with always mentioning my sources, quoting and translating. On your website you list a huge amount of sources (my compliments for that), but I have to conclude that you haven't read them all (properly).

Quote
This is in contradiction to the witness report of Berk, who says that Over de Linden possesed the OLB in 1853.

No, it's not.

In all versions of the story he got the manuscript in his hands in 1848.

Quote
Besides you change the meaning of the family treasure from an old book to a hidden treasure (money ?), which would be indicated in the book.

No, I did not.

Wirth wrote that Cornelis initially thought the book would contain information about a family treasure. If remember correctly, Jensma mentioned this too in his book.

### Posted 04 November 2011 - 04:26 PM
Knul, on 04 November 2011 - 03:55 PM, said:
Paper investigation in the 19th century tells, that the paper was 25 years old.

This 'investigation' is disputable. There were no good research methods and the investigators had never before seen 13th century paper. Their frame of reference was too limited and they were most probably not neutral (just like the nowaday paper-research team).

Quote
This is confirmed by recent spectrometric investigation of the paper.

No, it is not.

I have demonstrated that the research team is biased and that the outcome of their investigation is contradicting.

A carbondating examination is needed.
Why don't they simply do that?

### Posted 04 November 2011 - 04:53 PM
Quote
Knul:
Besides you change the meaning of the family treasure from an old book to a hidden treasure (money ?), which would be indicated in the book.

Oth.:
No, I did not. Wirth wrote that Cornelis initially thought the book would contain information about a family treasure. If remember correctly, Jensma mentioned this too in his book.

Knul:
In his first letter to Verwijs he speaks of 'heiligdom' (sacred), which he had to keep and maintain, not of treasure (money). This must be speculation by Jensma.

The one (sacred family document) does not exclude the other (possible information about a treasure).

Wirth already wrote about this in the 1930's.

Read more carefully and check your sources before accusing a respectable researcher of speculation.

### Posted 04 November 2011 - 04:56 PM
Quote
Knul:
This is in contradiction to the witness report of Berk, who says that Over de Linden possesed the OLB in 1853.

Oth.:
No, it's not. In all versions of the story he got the manuscript in his hands in 1848.

Knul:
The contradiction is the meeting 13 years later.

What meeting?
Can you quote Berk's witness report about 1853?

### Posted 04 November 2011 - 05:02 PM
Quote
Knul:
They returned with empty hands since Hendrik Reuvers, husband of Aunt Aafje, opposed to a deal. Obviously aunt Aafje had been appointed to settle the inheritance.

Oth.:
This is speculation and certainly not "obvious".
Hendrik Reuvers died 15-2-1845. The witness reports say that in 1845 they visited Cornelis' MOTHER, not his aunt. His mother was working for (and living with) an old skipper and he would have opposed to handing over the manuscript.
We may suspect that the witness confused the aunt for the mother and Reuvers for the skipper, but we should be careful not to present our assumptions as facts here.

Knul:
No speculation. Her sister didn't know.

Who's sister didn't know what?

### Posted 04 November 2011 - 05:10 PM
Quote
Knul:
I think there was a family quarrel about the inheritance of the bookshop and printery of the founder Jan over de Linden between the Enkhuizen branche of the family and the Den Helder branche.

Oth.:
Why do you think this? Is it just a thought or do you have a source?

Knul:
No other source than you have, but it is clear that they didn't go to Enhuizen just for fun (Over de Linden, Munnik and Stadermann). It has been said, that Stadermann has been taken with them because he knew about old books. Besides it has been reported, that Over de Linde was angry, that he did not get his share.

1. Over de Linden was angry that his uncle would not let him have the old family treasure (the Oldfrisian manuscript).

2. He took Stadermann because the latter knew about old books.

3. They went to Enkhuizen to try and collect the Manuscript and perhaps some other valuable books.

So what is your source for the "family quarrel about the inheritance of the bookshop and printery of the founder Jan over de Linden between the Enkhuizen branche of the family and the Den Helder branche"???

Let's stick to the facts.

### Posted 04 November 2011 - 05:23 PM
Abramelin, on 04 November 2011 - 04:27 PM, said:
Goffe Jensma has been discussed here often, but up to now we only read small parts of his analysis of the OLB.
I think it is fair to at least read what he had to say, even though many here do not agree with his conclusions.
His analysis is available online, but as a jumbled textual mess: someone obviously downloaded a PDF and without second thoughts copied all the 'hidden links' and footnotes along with the text itself. [...]

Thanks for that Abe, but it's still only part of his work.

The full publication of his "analysis", the thesis "De Gemaskerde God" (The Masked God), published in 2004 (only in Dutch), is not available online yet.

His conspiracy theory is with great distance superior to Knul's, but still not credible.

All specialists who were present at his book presentation agreed about that.

### Posted 04 November 2011 - 05:54 PM
Abramelin, on 04 November 2011 - 05:48 PM, said:
But did you just say they discussed Knul's work at the presentation of Jensma's book?

No.
I understand the confusion.
I ment they agreed that Jensma's theory (that Haverschmidt was the main creative genius behind the OLB) is not credible.

Otharus, on 14 October 2010 - 04:49 PM, said:
Goffe Th. Jensma wrote a thesis about the OLB and is generally accepted to be the 'official authority' on the subject.
[...]
At a public discussion on the occasion of his promotion, none of the speakers agreed with his conclusion that François Haverschmidt must have been the genius behind OLB. (see below)
[...]
Source: Leeuwarder Courant, friday 10 december 2004
Dutch title of article: "Van het Oera Linda-boek, de Friese kip en de zeespiegel"
Translation of relevant fragment (by me):
"Although the speakers without exception praised Jensma's work, he had not been able to convince any of them of his truth that François Haverschmidt is the main author of the OLB."
Original fragment in Dutch:
"Hoewel de sprekers zonder uitzondering vol lof waren over het werk van Jensma, had hij niemand kunnen overtuigen van zijn waarheid dat François Haverschmidt de belangrijkste auteur van het Oera Linda-boek is."

Correcting myself:
It was not all specialists that were present, but all specialists that spoke at his presentation.

### Posted 05 November 2011 - 10:11 AM
Knul, on 05 November 2011 - 12:27 AM, said:
Sister of Aafje Meyloff didn't know about OLB.

You mean Antje Van Doornik-Over de Linden (1795-1882), sister of Aafje Meijlof-Over de Linden (1798-1849) and Jan Over de Linden (1785-1835), the father of Cornelis.

Cornelis' father Jan was not interested in the manuscript and aunt Aafje was illiterate.

Here's a very short summary of my hypothesis:

Andries Over de Linden (1759-1820) was keeper of the manuscript.

[fact:] His daughter Aafje and the father of her children, Hendrik Reuvers, lived in his house in Enkhuizen.

Hendrik Reuvers (1796-1845) was initiated into the secrets of the book by his father-in-law Andries Over de Linden (1759-1820).

[fact:] The daughter of Aafje and Hendrik, Cornelia Reuvers (1818-1878) and her husband Rijkent Kofman (1820-1861) lived in the house of Cornelia's parents.

Hendrik Reuvers initiated his son-in-law Rijkent Kofman into the secrets of the book.

Cornelis Over de Linden (1811-1874) had heard of the book and stole it in 1848 or at least used pressure on his cousin Cornelia (Kee) to hand it over.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
That Antje OL didn't know about the book does not prove that it did not exist.
There are many other facts that make it more likely that it did.

### Posted 05 November 2011 - 12:37 PM
Otharus, on 05 November 2011 - 10:11 AM, said:
That Antje OL didn't know about the book does not prove that it did not exist.

I forgot to add this link to one of my earlier posts, just to show that I knew and don't hold back information.

Otharus, on 12 May 2011 - 01:08 PM, said:
Another aunt of Cornelis, Antje Van Doornik-Over de Linden (1795-1882), when asked in 1876, said not to have heard of the manuscript.

We should consider all three possible explanations of this:

1. She really had never heard of it.
2. She had forgotten about it.
3. She lied.

### Posted 05 November 2011 - 09:38 PM
Knul, on 05 November 2011 - 08:35 PM, said:
I have never heard, that aunt Aafje was illiterate. I can hardly beliefe so, because she was a daughter of a bookshopper-publisher.

That is not correct.
Her father, Andries Over de Linden (1759-1820) was a carpenter (timberman).

### Posted 05 November 2011 - 10:26 PM
Knul, on 05 November 2011 - 08:35 PM, said:
I have never heard, that aunt Aafje was illiterate.

Jensma, "De Gemaskerde God", p.244:

It is most likely that Over de Linden indeed got hold of family documents ca. 1848, that had been kept in the family house at the Oude Rietdijk in Enkhuizen, where aunt Aafje and her daughter Cornelia were living. In this branch of the family, that was socially weak, the succesful Cornelis will have been regarded as a lettered man and as a head of the family to whom these documents belonged.
[Note:]
In my opinion, it is not likely that Cornelis received parts of this archive from his aunt Aafje. Much more likely is the earlier cited story by [Hajo] Last, who claimed that Over de Linden got these documents, that his grandfather wanted him to inherit, through Cornelia Reuvers-Kofman, who [also] lived in the house of this grandfather. [...]
Salient detail is, that both aunt Aafje and her daughter Cornelia were illiterate. Source: marriage certificate Aafje Over de Linden and Koop Simonsz Meijlof, 20 dec. 1846: the bride "declared not having learned to write." [...]

Original text in Dutch:
Het is het waarschijnlijkst dat Over de Linden inderdaad zo rond 1848 in het bezit is gekomen van familiestukken die tot dan toe bewaard werden in het familiehuis aan de Oude Rietdijk te Enkhuizen, waar tante Aafje en haar dochter Cornelia woonden. In deze tak van de familie, die sociaal gezien zeer zwak was, zal de carrièremaker Cornelis zijn beschouwd als een geletterd man en als de chef de famille aan wie deze stukken ook toekwamen.
[Noot:]
De meest waarschijnlijke weg waarlangs delen van dit archief bij Cornelis terecht zijn gekomen loopt mijns inziens niet via tante Aafje. Veel waarschijnlijker is het hiervoor geciteerde verhaal van [Hajo] Last, die beweert dat Over de Linden deze stukken, die de grootvader voor zijn stamhouder had bestemd, heeft gekregen van de bij deze grootvader inwonende Cornelia Reuvers-Kofman. [...]
Saillant detail is, dat zowel Tante Aafje als haar dochter Cornelia analfabeet waren. Bron: huwelijksacte Aafje Over de Linden en Koop Simonsz Meijlof, 20 dec. 1846: de bruid "verklaarde geen schrijven te hebben geleerd". [...]

### Posted 05 November 2011 - 10:33 PM
Abramelin, on 05 November 2011 - 10:03 PM, said:
I hope you won't mind, Otharus, but I 'bumped' this old post of yours to be able to know who is what, why, where and when.
This discussion between the two of you is kind of hard to follow.
For me this family thing is a lot more difficult to follow than anything we posted before about etymologies, myths, people, history, maps, and so on.

Yes, I understand it can be confusing.
I'm used to it as I have been a genealogist for almost 30 years now (started at highschool because I was bored).
Thanks for quoting that to fresh up our memory.
The whole (updated) Over de Linden genealogy is here: http://fryskednis.bl...-genealogy.html

### Posted 06 November 2011 - 10:23 AM
Abramelin, on 05 November 2011 - 10:38 PM, said:
Otharus, do you have Jensma's source for this story about what COL's grandson is suppposed to have said?

Yes:
Letter signed Santpoort, 7 Oct. 1965 from Riek Mulder-Pomper.

(From 1917 she had shared house with the widow of a grandson of Cornelis I, Floris August Over de Linden (1863-ca.1910), who had lived in the house of his grandfather in the 1860-s)

"... as a very little child he was brought to his grandfather. This grandfather must have been a very funny man, who was fooling everyone around and was always telling strange stories and said things that make you laugh. In one summer a few 'learned doctors from Leeuwarden', as the grandfather called them, came to visit, and took him out to go sailing. But there was a day, that the grandfather no longer joined, but was writing all day on big sheets of paper. He had fun, but never wanted to tell the little boy why. In the evening the 'learned doctors' came and grandfather would read to them what he had written during the day. Then they laughed loudly, and Floor had heard them shout: they'll be surprised and they'll never believe it! Years later, when he heard about the controversy around the book and had a good think about it, he went to his oldest brother Cor [= Cornelis III] (there was also a sister Brecht) and told him, that it was all nonsense, as he himself had seen Grandfather write the book [aged 5 or 6 years old!].
But Cor had become furious and had said, that he had no clue, that he should mind his own business, and keep his mouth shut, because after all the book said that they descended from kings! So he kept it for himself, he no longer could ask his grandfather, who had already passed away, and therefore he informed his wife about it. And Mrs. O.d.L. told me, probably because she thought, that at least someone should know. But first I had to solemnly promise her to never speak about it with anyone 'because of the sensitivity of the family'."

Jensma:
This note creates a difficulty though. Because the children arrived in Holland a long time after Verwijs had written the state officials and for more than one-and-a-half year had tried to introduce the manuscript into the world. One would say, that the witness report about Floris can therefore not be true. At second thought though another, much better explanation presents itself, namely that Over de Linden had not completely finished the manuscript in the beginning of 1869 and that the events that Floris remembered occurred not before the summer of 1869.

[Footnote:]
In his report [to state officials!!!] about the manuscript of 1867 Verwijs wrote, that it 'contains about 200 pages in 4, the last part of which apparently is missing though...'. The usual interpretation of this is obviously that the OLB ends at page 210 in the middle of a sentence which (indeed) suggests that part is missing. But one can also interpret it, that the last part was missing and therefore still had to be made or finished. Based on existing writings that still needed editing, he estimated the expected size of the book at 200 pages.

Quote (Otharus)
I must admit that Goffe Jensma has a good imagination.
But mine is better.
With one simple question I can sweep his theory off the table:

What if King Willem of the Netherlands himself would have heard of the manuscript and taken an interest in it, what if he would have suddenly sent a telegram saying that he would arrive with the first next ship or horse and carriage, to personally come and have a look at the manuscript himself?

Surely, the supposed hoaxers Over de Linden and Verwijs would not have taken the risk to stand empty handed, and be demasked as swindlers, after their many attempts to get a transcription and translation of the manuscript funded!

### Posted 06 November 2011
This grandson stayed with Cornelis Over de Linden in the summer of 1869.

Verwijs wrote in 1867 to state officials about the manuscript containing "about 200 pages".

If Verwijs and Over de Linden were part of the supposed conspiracy, they would not be so stupid to not finish the manuscript before trying to have it translated and published.

### Posted 06 November 2011 - 12:10 PM
The Puzzler, on 06 November 2011 - 11:49 AM, said:
I don't really doubt there could be an Aldland in Friesland and then an Aldland in from whence these Finda's people came in. It's how both can be one is the answer that's really needed.

The discussion about toponyms being found in the provionce of Friesland as well as in the big world out there makes me think of an old philosophical principle as above so below (or something like that).

I can imagine that the Frisians wanted to 'copy' the big world into their little world by copying those toponyms like Middle Sea, Egiptaland etcetera.

Furthermore, Aldland just means "old land"; it can refer to any old or former land.

There are places that are called "Ouddorp" (old village), "Oudendijk" (old dike).

In the province of Zeeland there are two villages Oudeland and Oudelande.

### Posted 06 November 2011 - 04:26 PM:
"NOCHT": a NAUGHTY word in the OLB?
An example of subtle censorship by translators
==>> this language study is seperately posted.

I will later add the fragments with NOCH, ENOCH and ÉNOCH as they are obviously related too.

### Posted 06 November 2011 - 05:14 PM
Abramelin, on 06 November 2011 - 02:02 PM, said:
There was no "Middle Sea" in the big world, there was only a Middle Sea in the province of Friesland. And you will only find a 'Mittelsee' in either Germany or maybe Switserland.

You are contradicting yourself:

Abramelin, on 06 November 2011 - 02:05 PM, said:
everytime I tell you the Jews named the Med Middle Sea after the medieval German (in Latin) name for that sea.

### Posted 06 November 2011 - 05:20 PM
Abramelin, on 06 November 2011 - 02:30 PM, said:
Still, from what you posted, I think it's possible this Floor could have been present when his grandfather was busy finishing the manuscript.

I think you ignored this:

"This note creates a difficulty though. Because the children arrived in Holland a long time after Verwijs had written the state officials and for more than one-and-a-half year had tried to introduce the manuscript into the world."

"In his report [to state officials!!!] about the manuscript of 1867 Verwijs wrote, that it 'contains about 200 pages in 4, the last part of which apparently is missing though...'."

And don't forget it's a 'witness report' out of the 3rd hand, written down a century after it was supposed to have happened...

### Posted 06 November 2011 - 07:17 PM
Abramelin, on 06 November 2011 - 06:17 PM, said:
OK, the German 'Middle Sea' (latin: Mediterranea) came into existence many ages after the Fryans are supposed to have given a sea that name.

With "came into existence" you probably mean: "is mentioned on the oldest known source".
We don't know if the name existed earlier.
Sometimes a new source is found that changes generally accepted theories.
Our current theories are based on known and accepted sources.
A new theory that challenges the existing mainstream ones, is "alternative" untill it is accepted.
OLB is not a well known alternative source yet, and certainly not explained and understood properly.

### Posted 9 November 2011 - 09:35 AM
The Puzzler, on 08 November 2011 - 11:29 PM, said:
I still think it's fake, but not bs.

If the manuscript would be fake, it should be very easy to at least prove that the paper is modern and artificially colored. (But even then it could be a copy of an older original.)

The paper research has been going on for several years now and there still is no clear answer to the question where and when it was made.

The research team is not willing to share results (other than two very vague articles) or answer questions about them.

A very recent study has proved that when research data is not willingly shared, it usually means that the outcome is not what the researchers hoped or expected.

"Willingness to Share Research Data Is Related to the Strength of the Evidence and the Quality of Reporting of Statistical Results"http://www.plosone.org...Fjournal.pone.0026828

Ottema must have been right after all, which means that many scholars that ridiculed him will lose their credibility.

### Posted 9 November 2011 - 11:03 AM
The Puzzler, on 09 November 2011 - 10:21 AM, said:
It could be sheer co-incidence that the date 1806 is given. That's really the swaying point for me.

The year 1806 is not all that significant really.
I don't think Dutch children learn it at school anyway.
In many years some 'major event' could be found if you look for it.

In THEORY it would be possible that people would keep unused paper (over 200 pages!) for 600 years (not so sure about the ink), but do you think that's realistic?

As for the so-called 'modern expressions'...
They are as modern as the oldest written down record of them.
The word FVCK is obviously much older than the first time it was written down.

Yesterday I bought a book with fabliaux from the 12th and 13th century (and I will be busy reading it).

Because they have been kept locked up in secret and private libraries until relatively recently, it's hard to believe that people dared to think, speak out and write these things back then.

But they did... and how!
In our perception of the past of our languages, we are dependent of the few sources that we have.

Never forget it's only a fraction of what ever existed.
(Remember winters here can be very cold and dark and we didn't always have central heating and lightbulbs. No better way to start a fire than with paper.)

### Posted 9 November 2011 - 11:33 AM
Otharus, on 09 November 2011 - 11:03 AM, said:
Yesterday I bought a book with fabliaux from the 12th and 13th century (and I will be busy reading it).

For Abe (when you get bored with the OLB)...
Zo bijgeschaafd als de tekst, zo 'onbeschaafd' is de inhoud van deze fabliaux. 'Boertig' is de juiste typering, maar menig lezer zal dit na één blik op de inhoudsopgave een eufemisme vinden. 'De lullendroom' of 'De ridder die kutten aan de praat kon krijgen' was misschien een betere titel voor deze bundel geweest; want het scabreuze element overheerst in deze twaalfde- en dertiende-eeuwse boerten. Geile geestelijken, overspelige vrouwen en hoorndragers figureren in haast iedere fabliau. 'Het neuken', stelt Van Altena in zijn inleiding, 'is aan de orde van de dag en de nacht.' Maar bij dit alles worden de zinnen geen moment geprikkeld.

Het ging vooral om de humor; er moest gelachen worden. En voor het publiek van de jongleurs was er geen groter vermaak dan leedvermaak. Er wordt dan ook menigeen afgerost in deze boerten, met als tragisch dieptepunt de ferme kastijding en zelfcastratie van pater Richard in 'Kutbert'. Deze pastoor alias pierewaaier gaat te dikwijls op bezoek bij een willige smidsvrouw, en dat wekt de wraakzucht van haar echtgenoot. Samen met zijn knecht betrapt de smid de pater op heterdaad, overmeestert hem en zet hem met zijn klokkenspel klem in een bankschroef. Vervolgens gaat de smidse in brand, waarop pater Richard geen andere keuze heeft dan gebruik te maken van het hem overhandigde scheermes. 'Zo kwam de pater aan zijn recht,' aldus de fabliau. Maar dat is nog niet echt het eind van het verhaal, want

Hiermee wordt het relaas besloten.
Ze vonden nog zijn beide kloten
geroosterd in het hete vuur,
die aten ze ten slotte puur
zonder komijn bij het ontbijt
als delicate smaak'lijkheid.

http://admin.nrcboek...als-een-beddepo

### Posted 9 November 2011 - 03:16 PM
Abramelin, on 09 November 2011 - 02:29 PM, said:
It's just that in that year Napoleon's brother became king here,
it's just about the French Revolution with the same ideas as we read about in the OLB,
it's also just a coincidence the French Revolution started in the year Joast Halbertsma was born,
it's again just a coincidence that the French Revolutionaries wanted to introduce a "Supreme Being" like Wralda,
and then we have their 'sacred tree', a linden-tree (lime tree / all those Lindens in the OLB),
their slogan égalite, liberté, fraternité,
and so on.

I'm used to 'co-incidences.
That's why I can relate to the concept of a 'world-ghost' (or collective subconsciousness).
I prefer that to paranoid thinking and seeing conspiracies everywhere.

### Posted 9 November 2011 - 03:20 PM
Here's a some of my doubts about the Halbertsma theory:

1) If I understand it correctly, you (Abe and Knul) believe that Halbertsma could have written most of what is now the OLB, using his knowledge of language, mythology and history. None of his friends and relatives knew about all this work. He had kept this a total secret.

2) After his death, others got hold of his notes or primal version and added and/or changed things, suggesting a link to the Over de Linden family. You and Knul believe that Stadermann did this, so he could sell it to Over de Linden.

3) But the (Westfrisian) Over de Linden family was not wealthy. Stadermann could better have chosen a rich Frisian family. And then there's all these witness accounts about the manuscript having been in the OdL family in Enkhuizen.

All this is not explained (yet) in the Halbertsma theory.
There's just too many facts that make any of the existing hoax theories terribly unbelievable.
And there is still no hard evidence AGAINST authenticity of the OLB.
Let's at least agree that it could possibly be authentic.
That would already be a great step forward.

OLB words in NW-European languages

Experiment.
Fragments from OLB, p.98.
(with improvised translations, staying close to the original)

Ur-alda (world, Allah, overold-one) is the oldest-of-all or over-oldest,
because that created all things.

Ur-alda is all in all,
because that is eternal and infinite.

Ur-alda is everywhere present,
but nowhere to be seen.

Therefore the being is named 'Ghost'.

All that we can see of him are
the creations that come through his life (?),
and go away again.

Because out of Ur-alda come all
things and return all things.

Out of Ur-alda comes the beginning and
the end of all things go up in him.

Words ending with -HÉD or -NES / -NIS

(this was also posted on the forum on 25 October 2011)

FRYA THÉR SJUGUN SKÉNHÉDE HÉDE [096/13]
study of the OLB language

In my post about DEL-TA, I gave some examples of how some adjectives can be turned into nouns by adding:

-te (Dutch),
-de (Scandinavian languages),
-th (English); here I forgot the even more obvious -ity (example: oddity)

Quote
diep (-te) = deep/ depth
droog (-te) = dry (-ness)
groen (-te) = green/ vegetable
hoog (-te, -heid) = high (-ness)
laag (-te) = low (-ness)
lang/ lengte = long/ length
leeg (-te) = empty (-ness)
lief (-de) = dear/ love
sterk (-te) = strong/ strength
stil (-te) = silent/ silence, stil (-ness)
ver (-te) = far/ distance
warm (-te) = warm (-th)
wijd (-te) = wide/ width

More common is the use of:

-heid (Dutch)
-heit (German)
-het (Swedish, Norwegian)
-hed (Danish)

Some examples in Dutch:

glad (-heid) = slippery (-ness)
goed (-heid) = good (-ness)
hard (-heid) = hard (-ness)
plechtig (-heid) = formal (-ity)
schoon (-heid) = beautiful/ beauty
snel (-heid) = fast/ speed
vrij (-heid) = free (-dom)
... etcetera

The OLB suggests that this -HÉD is derived from the verb "to have" (see title of this post), which would make sense.

When a noun is based on an adjective (like "hardness" is based on "hard"), the noun represents a property that has the quality of the adjective.
(I don't know how to explain this, I hope it's understandable.)
Examples:
Slipperyness => something has/is slippery
goodness => something that has/is good
hardness => something having/being hard
etc.

The Dutch, German and Scandinavian -heid/ -heit/ -het/ -hed can be used for almost anything, like the English -ness.

The OLB contains the following varieties of this construction, that are often hard to translate:

ÀJENDOMLIKHÉD [p.158/25-26]
NL: eigendommelijkheid => eigenschap
E: 'owndomlikeness' => property, characteristic

BIGÍRLIKHÉD [p.160/21]
NL: begeerlijkheid
E: 'wannahaveness' => covetousness?

BLODHÉD [p.166/01]
NL: blootheid or bloedheid? (uncommon) => 'blooheid', verlegenheid, schroom?
E: timidity, shyness?

BOSHÉD [pp.099/03-04,158/24]
NL: boosheid
E: angryness, wickedness

DERTENHÉD [p.079/15]
NL: dartelheid?
E: wantonness?

DROKHÉD [p.086/15]
NL: drukheid, drukte
E: busyness

DOMHÉD [099/]; DVMHÉD [pp.13,33,35,36]
NL: domheid
E: dumbness, stupidity

DWÉSHÉD [pp.190,191,203], DWÁSHÉDE [plur. 206]
NL: dwaasheid
E: crazyness, stupidity

ÉVGHÉD [p.158]
NL: eeuwigheid
E: eternity

FINDINGRIKHÉD [p.141], OVER.FINDINGRIKHÉD [p.100]
NL: (over-) vindingrijkheid
E: (over-) inventivity

FONSELVHÉD [p.32]
NL: vanzelfheid (uncommon)
E: 'of courseness'?

FORMÉTENHÉD [p.190], VRMÉTENHÉD [p.161]
NL: vermetenheid, vermetelheid
E: audacity

FRYHÉD [pp.134.141,142(3x)]
NL: vrijheid
E: freeness

FVLKVMENLIKHÉD [p.103], FVLKVMINHÉD [p.139]
NL: volkomen(lijk)heid
E: perfect(like)ness

GODHÉD [p.134]
NL: goedheid
E: goodness

GRÁTHÉD [p.151]
NL: grootheid
E: greatness

HÁCHFÁRENHÉD [pp.63,100]
NL: hoogvarendheid
E: (high-faringness) 'pompousness'?

HÉRICHHÉD [p.87], OVERHÉRICHHÉD [p.136]
NL: horigheid => gehoorzaamheid
E: 'hearingness'; obedience

KOSTELIKHÉD [p.207]
NL: kostelijkheid
E: preciousness

KLÁRHÉD [p.145]
NL: klaarheid (helderheid)
E: clearness, clarity

KLÁRSJANHÉD [pp.35,134]
NL: klaarziendheid (helderziendheid)
E: 'clearseeingness'; clearvoyance

LEFHÉD [p.203]
NL: lafheid
E: cowardice

LÔMHÉD [p.099/04]
NL: loomheid
E: heaviness, languidness

OVERBILÁWICHHÉD [p.132]
NL: bijgelovigheid?
E: superstition?

OVERFLODALIKHÉD [p.135]
NL: overvloedelijkheid -> overvloedigheid
E: abundantness

OVIRMODICHHÉD [p.124]
NL: overmoed(igheid)
E: 'overcourageousness'; hubris

RJUCHTFÉRDICHHÉD [pp.32,160]
NL: rechtvaardigheid
E: justice

SALICHHÉD [36], SÉLIGHÉD [pp.158(3x),159]
NL: zaligheid
E: delight, blissfulness

SKALKHÉD [p.17]
NL: schalksheid?
E: roguishness

SKÁMELHÉD [p.112]
NL: schamelheid
E: shabbyness?

SKÉNHÉD [pp.95,96,163]
NL: schoonheid
E: 'shineness'; beauty

SÍRHÉD (name) [p.62,etc]
litterally: "Sierheid"; beauty(ness)

SYRHÉDON [pp.61,75,79,80,etc.], SJARHÉDA [p.118]
NL: sieraden (litt. "sierheden")
E: jewelry ('beautynesses')

SNÔDHÉD [p.115]
NL: snoodheid
E: baseness, wickedness

TSJODISHÉD [p.159]
NL: slechtheid (Jensma), ondeugendheid (Ottema)
E: evilness, badness?

VNDIGERHÉD [4x]
[p.099/04] Jensma: onzorgvuldigheid, Ottema: zorgeloosheid, Sandbach: carelessness
[p.152/11] Jensma and Ottema: onvoorzichtigheid, Sandbach: imprudence
[pp.161/2,203/19] Jensma: onoplettendheid, Ottema: onbezonnenheid, Sandbach: inconsiderateness, thoughtlessness

WELHÉD [p.26]
NL: welheid, goedheid
E: wellness, goodness

WENHÉD [pp.65,147], WÉNHÉD [p.113]
NL: wenheid (not used) => gewoonte
E: habit

WÉRHÉD [pp.118,140(2x),141]
NL: waarheid
E: truth

WISHÉD [p.96,etc.]
NL: wijsheid
E: wiseness, wisdom

######

PART 2

Posted 25 October 2011 - 11:05 AM

Otharus, on 25 October 2011 - 08:34 AM, said:
In my post about DEL-TA, I gave some examples of how some adjectives can be turned into nouns by adding:
-te (Dutch),
-de (Scandinavian languages),
-th (English); here I forgot the even more obvious -ity (example: oddity)

More common is the use of:
-heid (Dutch)
-heit (German)
-het (Swedish, Norwegian)
-hed (Danish)

The OLB suggest that this -HÉD is derived from the verb "to have" (see title of this post), which would make sense.
The Dutch, German and Scandinavian -heid/ -heit/ -het/ -hed can be used for almost anything, like the English -ness.

In Dutch, besides "-heid", "-nes" (or "-nis") is also used in the same way, just like the English "-ness":

bekend/ bekentenis = known, confessed/ confession
bemoeien (-is) = to meddle (in)/ meddling
gebeurd/ gebeurtenis = happened/ 'happenedness' => event (in the past)
geschied (-enis) = same, but now it means history
gevangen (-is) = caught (trapped)/ 'caughtness' => prison
treur (-nis) = mourn/ 'mournness' => misery
verdommen (-is) = to damn/ damnation
getuigen (-is) = to testify/ testimonial
herdenken/ nagedachtenis = to rethink/ memorial
deren/ deernis = to harm or to hurt/ pity

While "-heid" (OLB: -HÉD) seems to be derived from the verb "to have", "-is" (OLB: -IS or -ES) could be derived from the verb "to be".

Here's the OLB words made with this construction.

Note the many spelling varieties (seven for SKÉDNESE; history!).

ÀRGENESE [041/24; 138/06], ÀRGNISSE [069/05], ÀRGENISSE [076/06], ÀRGNISE [157/13] = annoyance, irritation (dutch: ergernis)

BÉRTNISA [001/21] BÉRTNISSA [087/13], BÉRTNESA [143/04] = events, occurrences, incidents (dutch: gebeurtenissen)

BITJVTENISE [035/01], BITJUDNESE [045/27], BITHJUTNESSE [142/23] = meaning(-s) (dutch: betekenis(-sen))

BYLDNESE [038/08], BYLDNISSE [072/29] = 'buildnesses'; statues (dutch: beeltenissen)

DROVENESE [137/01 = sadness (dutch: droefenis)

ÉR.BJADENESSE [071/15], ÉRBIDENESE [121/06], ÉRBÉDENESE [136/26], ÉR.BÍDNESSE [189/05] = respect; 'honor-offering-ness' (dutch: eerbied)

FANGNISA [037/04,6] = ??? Ottema: "booze lusten", Sandbach: "wicked passions", Jensma: "bevangenissen; gewoonten waardoor men bevangen is (?), eventueel 'gevangenissen'"

HÉMNESA [046/04], HEMNISSA [210/31] = secrets (dutch: geheimen)

LIKNESS [072/30] = likeness (dutch: gelijkenis)

SKÉDNISSE [Hidde/04], SKÍDNISA [004/15], SKÉDNISE [006/11-12], SKÉDNESA [040/05; 108/22] SKÉDNESSE [050/31; 062/06; 065/15; 071/13], SKÉDNESE [053/13; 056/21; 114/01; 119/19; 120/13; 146/16], SKIDNESE [154/19] = histories, history (dutch: geschiedenis(-sen))

STILNISE [009/05; 049/19; 140/23; 163/31], STILNESSE [201/05] = stillness, silence (dutch: stilnis, stilte)

THJUSTERNESSE [084/05], THJUSTERNISE [093/27], THJUSTERNISSE [094/10], THJUSTRENESSE [142/14,26; 159/32] = dusk, darkness (dutch: duisternis)

YDLENISE [009/16] = vanity (dutch: ijdelheid)

Forum # 12 (okt. 21 - 28, 2011)

Posted 21 October 2011 - 11:20 AM

The following discussion was not finished yet.
As the question whether OLB might possibly be authentic is vital, I'll repeat:

On 31 August 2011, I said:
Knul's website (in Dutch) about his Oera Linda hoax-theory, starts with:
"In 1867 the Oera Linda Book came to light. Ten years later J. Beckering Vinckers[*] proved on linguistic grounds that it had to be a hoax." [*note: 'Beckering' was not part of his family name, but a given name]

On 18 October 2011, I said:
So Knul believes that Vinckers' gave sufficient proof in 1876 that OLB has to be a hoax.
Can any of the Dutch readers point out or summarise the proof to me, because I never found it.

Abe repeated an answer he gave before, that Vinckers' proof was based on many supposed "linguistic errors" in the OLB.

On 15 October 2011, I said:
Can you give one example from the OLB of a "linguistic error"?
And if you can, how would this prove that OLB cannot be authentic?

Abramelin, on 18 October 2011 said:
I think I'll leave those for Menno Knul if you don't mind

On 18 October 2011 - 07:00 PM, I said:
"The OLB is one of the most amazing books, that were ever found in the world."
"The remarkable book found brave defenders, three men in particular:
Dr. J.G. Ottema, Dr. A.T. Reitsma, Prof. Dr. Vitringa."
"I was recently informed that the late Mr. De Haan Hettema also declared the language of the OLB to be Frisian, older than that of the Old-Frisian laws!! It's almost incredible."
The above quotes are from J.B. Vinckers (1876), who was not able to prove that the OLB is a hoax.

Dr. J.G. Ottema, Dr. A.T. Reitsma, Prof. Dr. A.J. Vitringa and Mr. M. De Haan Hettema (1796-1873).
They declared the OLB language "to be more old and pure than [that] of the Oldfrisian Records".
Some significant publications by Mr. M. de Haan Hettema:
1830 The Emsiger Landlaws of the year 1312
1830 Short guide to Oldfrisian
1832 Friesche Spraakleer (study of Frisian oral language), with R.Rask
1832 Frisian Dutch dictionary
1834 Jurisprudentia Frisica, or Frisian law studies. A manuscript from the 15th Century. Part 1
1834/35 Idem - Part 2
1835 Idem - Part 3
1841 The Fivelingoër and Oldampster Landlaws. An Oldfrisian Manusctript from the 14th Century
1846 Old Frisian Laws - Part 1 (Hunsingoër regt. Rustringer regt. Broekmer regt. Emsiger regt (1st and 2nd codex))
1847 Old Frisian Laws - Part 2-1 (Jus municipale Frisonum)
1851 Old Frisian Laws - Part 2-2 (Boetregisters. Geestelijke regten. Willekeuren. Lex Frisionum)

Vinckers (1876) about the OLB and its language:
"this monstrous absurdity"
"linguistic madness"
"...hundred times more scandalous [...] than essay in a foreign language by a student, who dares to step on the slippery ice of a final exam without any linguistic preparation."
"The language in which this product was written, is a most detestable mishmash, gibberish, made by someone not ignorant in other topics, but absolutely unaware of the primal grounds of the linguistics of related German languages in general, and of the old-frisian language in particular; a gibberish, nothing better than Negro-English; a gibberish, that makes the OLB to a disgrace in the line of most weighty remains of the oldfrisian language."
"A miserable hodgepodge of old and young, such a misfit of babel, that on every page, no in every line of the 126 printed pages, reveils its fake birth to the eye of the specialist through indisputable proof."
~ ~ ~
Mr. Montanus de Haan Hettema was a specialist alright (see list of his publications).
Howcome he did not see all this "indisputable proof"?
Can anyone who takes Vinckers seriously give an example of this "indisputable proof"?

Otharus, on 19 October 2011 - 08:48 AM, said:
Vinckers (1876) saw his method as "... an infallible tool to judge age and purity of the most ancient remains of German language, including Oldfrisian of 558 BC."
He used strong terms, but was not able to produce "the most abundant and convincing evidence" ("de meest overvloedige en overtuigende bewijzen") as he called it.
I asked Knul several times, but he is not able to reproduce Vinckers' 'proof' that OLB cannot be authentic.

Otharus, on 19 October 2011 - 11:42 AM, said:
What if "Dutch" (Westfrisian!) is actually more similar to the original language of our ancient ancestors, than what is called "old-Frisian" (from laws that were noted and copied by Christian, Latin-schooled monks)?
What if old-Frisian expert Mr. Montanus de Haan Hettema was right?

Otharus, on 19 October 2011 - 03:12 PM, said:
I agree with
Dr. de Haan Hettema, Dr. Reitsma, Prof. Dr. Vitringa and Dr. Ottema that the language of the OLB is NOT:
a "monstrous absurdity", "linguistic madness", "scandalous", "a most detestable mishmash", "gibberish", "a disgrace in the line of most weighty remains of the oldfrisian language", "miserable hodgepodge of old and young" or "a misfit of babel" (terms used by J.B. Vinckers).

It's still not clear why it would be "out of the question" that OLB is authentic.

### Posted 21 October 2011 - 11:44 AM
Knul, on 19 October 2011 - 10:59 AM, said:
As I have stated before, the OLB is a word-for-word translation of a Dutch text, which follows Dutch grammar, conjugations and declinations.

[BOEK VAN ADELA MS PAG. 72]

Caput XXIX.
Thit [Dit] is [is] over [over] tha [de] Gêrtmanna [Geertmannen].
1. Thâ [Toen] Hellênja [Hellenia] jefta [of] Minerva [Minerva] sturven [gestorven] was [was],
tha [toen] bâradon [beraadden] tha [de] prestera [priesterss] as [als] jef [of] hja [zij] mith [met] vs [ons] wêron [waren],
til [tot] thju [zij] that [dat] hel [helder] blika [blijken] skolde [zou] havon [hebben] hja [ze] Hellênia [Hellenia] to [tot] ‑ne [een] godene [god] ute [uit] kêth [geroepen]. (...)

I simply replaced the OLB text word-for-word by its Dutch equivalent without changing the word order. The same can be done from Dutch to OLB, but negative verbs and expressions should be adapted conform mediaeval usage like double negations. I agree with Abe that anyone could have done so. That is why I believe, that he could write a hoax text himself as well.

One can do the same with German, English and Swedish; that will only be slightly more difficult.

German:
"Dies ist über die Gértmanna.
Als Hellénja oder Minerva gestorben war,
dann überlegten die Priestern als ob si mit uns waren,
damit sie das klar beweisen wurden haben sie Hellénja zu eine Gottin aus gerufen.
... (undsoweiter)"

English:
"This is about the Gértmanna.
When Hellénja or Minerva died had,
then considered the priests whether they were with us,
till they that clear appear should
have they Hellénja to Goddess declared.
... (andsoforth)"

So what does it prove?

That present day Dutch is more similar to the language that was used in this area over 2000 years ago, than the languages of our neighbors?

Or that it has to be fake because it's more easy to understand than a few Medieval formal texts that only have survived because monks did not burn them?

That we have no old written records of the Aboriginals and the Papua's does not mean they did not have a language.

Our ancestors of the year zero must have had an advanced language and it is possible that OLB is the oldest known record of it.

### Posted 21 October 2011 - 12:20 PM

Abramelin, on 21 October 2011 - 12:06 PM, said:
And the Dutch and German languages often use the same word order so it's no surprize both German and Dutch can be used to create a word-for-word translation of the OLB.

So you agree that Knul's conclusion, that OLB must be a translation from modern Dutch into pseudo-oldfrisian, is not correct (as it could also have been from modern German)?

### Posted 21 October 2011 - 12:22 PM

Abramelin, on 21 October 2011 - 12:10 PM, said:
So this 18th century habit already existed in the 7th century BC?

I don't claim that.

If it's authentic, the manuscript is a copy from the 13th century AD (or a later copy of that).

### Posted 21 October 2011 - 01:45 PM

Abramelin, on 21 October 2011 - 12:30 PM, said:
They are not, of course, but it's kind of weird that both a 19th century person and someone from more than 2000 years before him have the same habit of starting a line with punctuation marks.

If the manuscript is authentic, it was not older than 600 years when Over de Linden studied it.

That something is "kind of weird" to some, does not make it impossible.

### Posted 21 October 2011 - 01:48 PM

cormac mac airt, on 21 October 2011 - 12:39 PM, said:
Even if the OLB could be shown to date prior to the 19th century, what evidence is there that it's a "copy" of anything from before the 13th century?

An example often used are the stilt houses (paalwoningen), described in the manuscript and unknown till the mid-19th century.

### Posted 21 October 2011 - 02:11 PM

Knul, on 21 October 2011 - 01:47 PM, said:
Here is a specimen of the handwriting of J.H. Halbertsma with similar characteristics as the OLB. The snakes (tildes) are used to erase texts. You find the snakes everywhere in the OLB manuscript, apparently not just to fill up open lines, because many lines stay open without such snakes.

I have seen dozens of texts, from the 18th and the 19th century, in which tildes are used.
Therefore, they are no indication that Halbertsma was involved.

Quote
Those who claim the authenticity of the OLB should explain both the numbered missing pages and the printing instructions in the OLB for a manuscript dating back to a time, that printing had not yet been invented.

1) Several explanations are possible: The missing pages may have been taken out on purpose by one of the guardians, or they may have been lended to someone-else without being returned.
BTW: The recent paper-study by Porck, vd Grijn and Kardinaal showed that the empty numbered pages were of a similar, but not the same paper-type. There was no clear answer to the question when and where the paper was fabricated.

2) What "printing instructions"?

### Posted 21 October 2011 - 02:20 PM

Abramelin, on 21 October 2011 - 01:53 PM, said:
But the OLB is supposed to have been copied over at least 2500 years (including Over de Linden's copy).

1st version Book of Adela-followers: 6th century BC
Letter Liko: 9 th century AD
Letter Hidde: 13th century AD
We don't know if the manuscript as we know it is Hidde's version or a later copy of that.
But if it is, there were 19 centuries between the first and the last copy.

Anyway, we'll never know how precise and accurate the last copyist was (unless we'd find the original he used).

### Posted 24 October 2011 - 11:49 AM
If the OLB is a word-for-word translation from modern-Dutch into pseudo-oldfrisian, as Knul stated, then what was the Dutch original for this sentence:

OLB page 10, line 25
THJU LÔFT WÀRT SWART ÀND NÍLOF FON TÁRA TO STIRTANE

Ottema (1872)
de lucht werd zwart en geelgroen van tranen te storten
[translated into English:]
the sky became black and yellow-green of throwing tears

Sandbach (1872)
the air was dimmed by tears

Jensma (2006)
De lucht werd zwart en niet moe van tranen storten
[translated into English:]
The sky became black and not tired of throwing tears

The word NÍLOF (or NYLOF) is not used elsewhere in the OLB, nor are the supposed parts NÍ and LOF.

LOF is only used in LOFTUM, LOFTA, LOFTE: (Dutch:) belofte, (English:) promise, oath, pledge, vow

NÍLOF (or NYLOF) = "yellow-green" or "not-tired" or ...?

### Posted 24 October 2011 - 12:00 PM
Abramelin, on 24 October 2011 - 11:47 AM, said:
Otharus, maybe a stupid question, but I'll ask you anyway: did you read Beckering Vinckers' analysis itself, or did you read about his analysis of the OLB?
If you read the analysis itself, you will also know the origin of that 'explanation' of the OLB name "Himellaya" = hemel aaien (to caress heaven): it was nothing but a joke made by Beckering Vinckers.
It tried to find a link to that pdf online, but I guess I'll have to look a bit harder in case you don't have it.
But if you do have the pdf, read pages 8, 9 and 10.

Yes, of course I studied it in detail, but did not find the proof.
Vinkers hated the OLB, and not only because of the language, as he said: "Die voor-Christelijke Oera-Linda's houden er zeer bedenkelijke, uiterst geavanceerde denkbeelden op na." translated: "Those pre-Christian Oera-Linda's have a very worrying, utterly advanced ideology."

### Posted 24 October 2011 - 12:50 PM
Abramelin, on 24 October 2011 - 12:28 PM, said:
Btw: the "nylof" thing would be an example of what Becker-Vinckers was talking about: it doesn't appear anywhere in any Old Frisian text, but it is Modern Dutch: nieuw-loof

I don't agree with:
NÍ = new
LOF = leaves.

Jensma (2006) also did not, he translated it as:
NÍ = not
LOF = tired

I don't think he was right either.
It's still unclear what NÍLOF means.

### Posted 24 October 2011 - 03:37 PM
The Puzzler, on 24 October 2011 - 02:41 PM, said:
Ny should be new, like in Nyhellenia.

NÍLOF is spelled with Í or
\|
|
NYHELLENJA with Y or Ì
|/
|

They are different letters.
I'm not so sure yet about "newleaf".
Black-green thundersky alright, but why black-"newgreen" or "yellowish-green"?
The colors have normal names in the OLB.

Green = GRÉN (p.111, line 7)

### Posted 25 October 2011 - 07:04 AM
The Puzzler, on 25 October 2011 - 04:40 AM, said:
There is no I in nylof so how can you (Knul and Otharus) interpret it as having one and then say it might be a different word???

There are two different Y's in the OLB (see page 46).
They both have two vertical spokes and one side-up spoke; one to the left and one to the right.
Ottema transcribed both as Y, but Jensma distinguishes them:
side-spoke left-up: Y (in FRYA, LYDA)
side-spoke right-up: Í (in GLÍAND, FÍT)

### Posted 25 October 2011 - 08:34 AM

FRYA THÉR SJUGUN SKÉNHÉDE HÉDE [096/13]
study of the OLB language

In my post about DEL-TA, I gave some examples of how some adjectives can be turned into nouns by adding:

-te (Dutch),
-de (Scandinavian languages),
-th (English); here I forgot the even more obvious -ity (example: oddity)

Quote
diep (-te) = deep/ depth
droog (-te) = dry (-ness)
groen (-te) = green/ vegetable
hoog (-te, -heid) = high (-ness)
laag (-te) = low (-ness)
lang/ lengte = long/ length
leeg (-te) = empty (-ness)
lief (-de) = dear/ love
sterk (-te) = strong/ strength
stil (-te) = silent/ silence, stil (-ness)
ver (-te) = far/ distance
warm (-te) = warm (-th)
wijd (-te) = wide/ width

More common is the use of:

-heid (Dutch)
-heit (German)
-het (Swedish, Norwegian)
-hed (Danish)

Some examples in Dutch:

glad (-heid) = slippery (-ness)
goed (-heid) = good (-ness)
hard (-heid) = hard (-ness)
plechtig (-heid) = formal (-ity)
schoon (-heid) = beautiful/ beauty
snel (-heid) = fast/ speed
vrij (-heid) = free (-dom)
... etcetera

The OLB suggest that this -HÉD is derived from the verb "to have" (see title of this post), which would make sense.

When a noun is based on an adjective (like "hardness" is based on "hard"), the noun represents a property that has the quality of the adjective.
(I don't know how to explain this, I hope it's understandable.)
Examples:
Slipperyness => something has/is slippery
goodness => something that has/is good
hardness => something having/being hard
etc.

The Dutch, German and Scandinavian -heid/ -heit/ -het/ -hed can be used for almost anything, like the English -ness.

The OLB contains the following varieties of this construction, that are often hard to translate:

ÀJENDOMLIKHÉD [p.158/25-26]
NL: eigendommelijkheid => eigenschap
E: 'owndomlikeness' => property, characteristic

BIGÍRLIKHÉD [p.160/21]
NL: begeerlijkheid
E: 'wannahaveness' => covetousness?

BLODHÉD [p.166/01]
NL: blootheid or bloedheid? (uncommon) => 'blooheid', verlegenheid, schroom?
E: timidity, shyness?

BOSHÉD [pp.099/03-04,158/24]
NL: boosheid
E: angryness, wickedness

DERTENHÉD [p.079/15]
NL: dartelheid?
E: wantonness?

DROKHÉD [p.086/15]
NL: drukheid, drukte
E: busyness

DOMHÉD [099/]; DVMHÉD [pp.13,33,35,36]
NL: domheid
E: dumbness, stupidity

DWÉSHÉD [pp.190,191,203], DWÁSHÉDE [plur. 206]
NL: dwaasheid
E: crazyness, stupidity

ÉVGHÉD [p.158]
NL: eeuwigheid
E: eternity

FINDINGRIKHÉD [p.141], OVER.FINDINGRIKHÉD [p.100]
NL: (over-) vindingrijkheid
E: (over-) inventivity

FONSELVHÉD [p.32]
NL: vanzelfheid (uncommon)
E: 'of courseness'?

FORMÉTENHÉD [p.190], VRMÉTENHÉD [p.161]
NL: vermetenheid, vermetelheid
E: audacity

FRYHÉD [pp.134.141,142(3x)]
NL: vrijheid
E: freeness

FVLKVMENLIKHÉD [p.103], FVLKVMINHÉD [p.139]
NL: volkomen(lijk)heid
E: perfect(like)ness

GODHÉD [p.134]
NL: goedheid
E: goodness

GRÁTHÉD [p.151]
NL: grootheid
E: greatness

HÁCHFÁRENHÉD [pp.63,100]
NL: hoogvarendheid
E: (high-faringness) 'pompousness'?

HÉRICHHÉD [p.87], OVERHÉRICHHÉD [p.136]
NL: horigheid => gehoorzaamheid
E: 'hearingness'; obedience

KOSTELIKHÉD [p.207]
NL: kostelijkheid
E: preciousness

KLÁRHÉD [p.145]
NL: klaarheid (helderheid)
E: clearness, clarity

KLÁRSJANHÉD [pp.35,134]
NL: klaarziendheid (helderziendheid)
E: 'clearseeingness'; clearvoyance

LEFHÉD [p.203]
NL: lafheid
E: cowardice

LÔMHÉD [p.099/04]
NL: loomheid
E: heaviness, languidness

OVERBILÁWICHHÉD [p.132]
NL: bijgelovigheid?
E: superstition?

OVERFLODALIKHÉD [p.135]
NL: overvloedelijkheid -> overvloedigheid
E: abundantness

OVIRMODICHHÉD [p.124]
NL: overmoed(igheid)
E: 'overcourageousness'; hubris

RJUCHTFÉRDICHHÉD [pp.32,160]
NL: rechtvaardigheid
E: justice

SALICHHÉD [36], SÉLIGHÉD [pp.158(3x),159]
NL: zaligheid
E: delight, blissfulness

SKALKHÉD [p.17]
NL: schalksheid?
E: roguishness

SKÁMELHÉD [p.112]
NL: schamelheid
E: shabbyness?

SKÉNHÉD [pp.95,96,163]
NL: schoonheid
E: 'shineness'; beauty

SÍRHÉD (name) [p.62,etc]
litterally: "Sierheid"; beauty(ness)

SYRHÉDON [pp.61,75,79,80,etc.], SJARHÉDA [p.118]
NL: sieraden (litt. "sierheden")
E: jewelry ('beautynesses')

SNÔDHÉD [p.115]
NL: snoodheid
E: baseness, wickedness

TSJODISHÉD [p.159]
NL: slechtheid (Jensma), ondeugendheid (Ottema)
E: evilness, badness?

VNDIGERHÉD [4x]
[p.099/04] Jensma: onzorgvuldigheid, Ottema: zorgeloosheid, Sandbach: carelessness
[p.152/11] Jensma and Ottema: onvoorzichtigheid, Sandbach: imprudence
[pp.161/2,203/19] Jensma: onoplettendheid, Ottema: onbezonnenheid, Sandbach: inconsiderateness, thoughtlessness

WELHÉD [p.26]
NL: welheid, goedheid
E: wellness, goodness

WENHÉD [pp.65,147], WÉNHÉD [p.113]
NL: wenheid (not used) => gewoonte
E: habit

WÉRHÉD [pp.118,140(2x),141]
NL: waarheid
E: truth

WISHÉD [p.96,etc.]
NL: wijsheid
E: wiseness, wisdom

### Posted 25 October 2011 - 08:56 AM

Otharus, on 25 October 2011 - 08:34 AM, said:
VNDIGERHÉD [4x]
[p.099/04] Jensma: onzorgvuldigheid, Ottema: zorgeloosheid, Sandbach: carelessness
[p.152/11] Jensma and Ottema: onvoorzichtigheid, Sandbach: imprudence
[pp.161/2,203/19] Jensma: onoplettendheid, Ottema: onbezonnenheid, Sandbach: inconsiderateness, thoughtlessness

It's remarkable that one-and-the-same word (undigerhéd) was translated in different ways (four by Sandbach, three by Ottema and Jensma):

...........Ottema (1872)......Jensma (2006)......Sandbach (1872)
p.099/04...zorgeloosheid......onzorgvuldigheid...carelessness
p.152/11...onvoorzichtigheid..onvoorzichtigheid..imprudence
p.161/02...onbezonnenheid.....onoplettendheid....inconsiderateness
p.203/19...onbezonnenheid.....onoplettendheid....thoughtlessness

Does anyone know a word from another language (English, German, Scandinavian?) that is moren similar to "undigerhéd"?

### Posted 25 October 2011 - 11:05 AM
Otharus, on 25 October 2011 - 08:34 AM, said:
In my post about DEL-TA, I gave some examples of how some adjectives can be turned into nouns by adding:
-te (Dutch),
-de (Scandinavian languages),
-th (English); here I forgot the even more obvious -ity (example: oddity)

More common is the use of:
-heid (Dutch)
-heit (German)
-het (Swedish, Norwegian)
-hed (Danish)

The OLB suggest that this -HÉD is derived from the verb "to have" (see title of this post), which would make sense.
The Dutch, German and Scandinavian -heid/ -heit/ -het/ -hed can be used for almost anything, like the English -ness.

In Dutch, besides "-heid", "-nes" (or "-nis") is also used in the same way, just like the English "-ness":

bekend/ bekentenis = known, confessed/ confession
bemoeien (-is) = to meddle (in)/ meddling
gebeurd/ gebeurtenis = happened/ 'happenedness' => event (in the past)
geschied (-enis) = same, but now it means history
gevangen (-is) = caught (trapped)/ 'caughtness' => prison
treur (-nis) = mourn/ 'mournness' => misery
verdommen (-is) = to damn/ damnation
getuigen (-is) = to testify/ testimonial
herdenken/ nagedachtenis = to rethink/ memorial
deren/ deernis = to harm or to hurt/ pity

While "-heid" (OLB: -HÉD) seems to be derived from the verb "to have", "-is" (OLB: -IS or -ES) could be derived from the verb "to be".

Here's the OLB words made with this construction.

Note the many spelling varieties (seven for SKÉDNESE; history!).

ÀRGENESE [041/24; 138/06], ÀRGNISSE [069/05], ÀRGENISSE [076/06], ÀRGNISE [157/13] = annoyance, irritation (dutch: ergernis)

BÉRTNISA [001/21] BÉRTNISSA [087/13], BÉRTNESA [143/04] = events, occurrences, incidents (dutch: gebeurtenissen)

BITJVTENISE [035/01], BITJUDNESE [045/27], BITHJUTNESSE [142/23] = meaning(-s) (dutch: betekenis(-sen))

BYLDNESE [038/08], BYLDNISSE [072/29] = 'buildnesses'; statues (dutch: beeltenissen)

DROVENESE [137/01 = sadness (dutch: droefenis)

ÉR.BJADENESSE [071/15], ÉRBIDENESE [121/06], ÉRBÉDENESE [136/26], ÉR.BÍDNESSE [189/05] = respect; 'honor-offering-ness' (dutch: eerbied)

FANGNISA [037/04,6] = ??? Ottema: "booze lusten", Sandbach: "wicked passions", Jensma: "bevangenissen; gewoonten waardoor men bevangen is (?), eventueel 'gevangenissen'"

HÉMNESA [046/04], HEMNISSA [210/31] = secrets (dutch: geheimen)

LIKNESS [072/30] = likeness (dutch: gelijkenis)

SKÉDNISSE [Hidde/04], SKÍDNISA [004/15], SKÉDNISE [006/11-12], SKÉDNESA [040/05; 108/22] SKÉDNESSE [050/31; 062/06; 065/15; 071/13], SKÉDNESE [053/13; 056/21; 114/01; 119/19; 120/13; 146/16], SKIDNESE [154/19] = histories, history (dutch: geschiedenis(-sen))

STILNISE [009/05; 049/19; 140/23; 163/31], STILNESSE [201/05] = stillness, silence (dutch: stilnis, stilte)

THJUSTERNESSE [084/05], THJUSTERNISE [093/27], THJUSTERNISSE [094/10], THJUSTRENESSE [142/14,26; 159/32] = dusk, darkness (dutch: duisternis)

YDLENISE [009/16] = vanity (dutch: ijdelheid)

### Posted 25 October 2011 - 12:31 PM
Abramelin, on 18 October 2011 - 10:26 AM, said:
It's kind of hard to summarize, but that is how *I* understood Beckering Vincker's analysis.

It's hard to summarize Vinckers' 'analysis', because it's hard to understand him, and that's because he does not make sense.

He admitted that his goal was not to analyze the OLB-language, but to ridicule it:
"I have reached my goal; I aimed at ridiculing the language of the OLB."

Here are some of the terms he used to describe the OLB and its language:
a "monstrous absurdity", "linguistic madness", "scandalous", "a most detestable mishmash", "gibberish", "a disgrace in the line of most weighty remains of the oldfrisian language", "miserable hodgepodge of old and young" and "a misfit of babel".

REAL experts, like Mr. Montanus de Haan Hettema (1796-1873) declared the OLB language "to be more old and pure than [that] of the Oldfrisian Records".

So why was BV's goal to ridicule the OLB?

Because, like he said: "Those pre-Christian Oera-Linda's have a very worrying, utterly advanced ideology."
("Die voor-Christelijke Oera-Linda's houden er zeer bedenkelijke, uiterst geavanceerde denkbeelden op na.")

### Posted 25 October 2011 - 01:47 PM
Abramelin, on 25 October 2011 - 12:56 PM, said:
Well, if you keep repeating that sermon for the third time, I will repeat that you should read pages 8,9 and 10 of that pdf I posted yesterday.

What good is this for our international forum members?
Of course I have studied those pages, but they don't contain the "indisputable proof" that Vinckers promised.
Obviously, you and Knul can't find it either, or you would simply quote him.

Quote
Also that this Beckering-Vinckers had a kind of sarcastic humor which when interpreted as you keep doing will give people the impression he really 'hated' the OLB.

I litterally translated his 'sarcastic humor', so no personal interpretation there.
Would you have translated differently?
That he hated the OLB is very obvious, and so is the reason why.

### Posted 25 October 2011 - 02:10 PM
Knul, on 25 October 2011 - 01:30 PM, said:
1. I just have received the Archievenblad 2011.no.3. page 23-24 by Ellen van der Grijn, Adriaan Kardinaal and Henk Porck as Otharus told us. It reads so, that from the comparance of the Oera Linda Boek with the empty papers left from Cornelis over de Linden have shown with spectometric tests, that Cornelis over de Linden himself has played an important role in making the OLB. The blank sheets are identical to the sheets of the OLB.

Let's go back a few months...

Otharus, on 15 April 2011 - 10:11 AM, said:
The Oera Linda Boek, a 'cold case' and 'hot item'.
by Henk Porck, Ellen van der Grijn, Adriaan Kardinaal
(published in the magazine of the Dutch Royal Archivists Union (KVAN), edition April 2011)

Otharus, on 24 April 2011 - 05:10 AM, said:
I would like to start discussing this article:
The Oera Linda Boek - A literary forgery and its paper
by A. Kardinaal, E. v.d. Grijn, H. Porck
published in: IPH Congress Book 16 (2006), p. 177-185
(...)
The underlined quote in the following fragment is from "De Gemaskerde God" (2004) by Goffe Jensma, p.256:

Otharus, on 09 April 2011 - 04:30 PM, said:
{{{... about some sheets of empty paper that were discovered between the things Cornelis Over de Linden had left behind when he died. It was discovered in the 1920-s, that is some 50 years after COL had died in 1874. The paper was "for the most part cut in the same size and also had lines drawn with pencil just like the paper from the OLB. This paper was not made brown (yet). These pages had been (...) numbered with pencil in the handwriting of COL" (my improvised translation). The handwritten pagenumbers appeared to fit in the gaps from the OLB; 193-194 and 169-188.

This leaves us with some questions:

1. How certain is it that it is indeed Over de Linden's handwriting?}}}

In the 2006 article the authors say about this:

"The blank sheets from Over de Linden's estate have been regarded as identical to the OLB paper and connected to it in several ways:
- the blank sheets are present in the estate of Cornelis Over de Linden
- some blank sheets are numbered in pencil just as those of the manuscript and possibly with the same hand
- ..."

So it is not certain at all that it was Cornelis' hand, like Jensma wanted us to believe.
In fact, if it would resemble his handwriting, the 2006 article would mention this, since they are on Jensma's side, but apparently they are more honest.

Also, the paper study did not confirm that the empty white paper was of the same stock as the colored/aged paper of the manuscript.

That Cornelis Over de Linden would have been involved is cleverly suggested in the article, but not clearly stated.

### Posted 25 October 2011 - 02:42 PM
Abramelin, on 25 October 2011 - 02:08 PM, said:
I had a different impression about his intentions: he tried to show in his analysis how ridiculous he thinks the OLB is, not how much he hated it.

He made his intensions very clear:

"I aimed at ridiculing the language of the OLB."
Original text:
"ik heb de taal van het Oera-Linda-Boek belachelijk willen maken"

I'll repeat the terms he used, with the original Dutch words, to show there cannot be any doubt about the fact that he had a serious problem with (content of?) the OLB, specially because the REAL experts of his time thought it was written in the most pure and ancient old-Frisian they had ever seen.

"this monstrous absurdity" - "dit gedrochtelijke onding"

"linguistic madness" - "taalkundige krankzinnigheid"

"hundred times more scandalous [...]" - "honderd maal schandelijker [...]"

"a most detestable mishmash" - "een allerverfoeilijkst mengelmoes"

"gibberish" - "een wartaal"

"a disgrace" - "een schandvlek"

"A miserable hodgepodge of old and young" - "Een ellendig zamenraapsel van oud en jong"

"a misfit of babel" - "een bajert van spraakverwarring"

### Posted 25 October 2011 - 03:53 PM
In an article in the NRC (dutch Newspaper) of 28-10-1938, Dr. Wumkes is quoted about the OLB.

Geert Aeilco Wumkes (1869-1954) was a Dutch theologian, pastor and historian.

He was the first to translate the bible into Frisian.

He was a librarian of the Provincial Frisian Library from 1924 till 1940.

(underlinings and bolds by me)

"More than 60 years have passed, since J. Beckering Vinckers published his pamphlet with the derisive title: "The falseness of the Oera Linda Book, as proven by the the gibberish in which it was written", Haarlem 1876, and that mister C. Leemans of the Royal Academy of Arts and Sciences in Amsterdam (...), spoke scornfully about the "droll concoction". (...) At the other hand, men like C. Vosmaer [1826-1888] and Multatuli [Eduard Douwes Dekker (1820–1887) express their great admiration for the content of Dr. Ottema's publication. I am convinced that the time when historic and purely philologic criticism was allmighty is over, to make place for a new vision.
Not the question of authentic or false will be most important, but in what shape the eternal Frisian freedom-myth has hidden itself and what place it has in their spirituality."

Original text:
"Het is nu ruim zestig jaren geleden, dat J. Beckering Vinckers zijn vlugschrift uitgaf met den hoonenden titel: “Die onechtheid van het Oera Linda Boek aangetoond uit de wartaal, waarin het is geschreven”, Haarlem 1876, en dat de heer C. Leemans in de Kon. Akademie van Kunsten en Wetenschappen te Amsterdam (...), smalender wijs over het “koddige maaksel” sprak. (...) Daartegenover uitten mannen als C. Vosmaer en Multatuli hun groote bewondering over den inhoud van dr Ottema's publicatie. Naar mijn overtuiging is de tijd, waarin de historische en zuiver philologische critiek oppermachtig was, voorbij, om plaats te maken voor een nieuwe visie.
Niet de vraag van echt of onecht zal voortaan de eerste zijn, maar in welken vorm de eeuwige vrijheidsmythe van het Friesche volk zich in dit stuk literatuur heeft gehuld en welke plaats daaraan toekomt in het geestelijk leven van dat volk."
Source: http://www.mennoterbraak.nl/.../braa002vade07_01_0113.php

It had taken the Dutch authorities lots of effort (many wars) to tame the Frisians (west and east) and to unite all the people into what is now "the Netherlands".
The last thing they needed was an ancient document that could be used as oil on the fire of seperatists or other revolutionaries.

### Posted 25 October 2011 - 04:00 PM
The Puzzler, on 25 October 2011 - 03:46 PM, said:
I'm sorry but I can't get past them, since we find a Waralden Olmai (Wralda) and the exact same 6 spoked wheel in their culture it seems likely they actually are the original people who held the history the same as the Fryans.
That doesn't mean Frisians need to have Sami genes, it means we can verify some of the OLB through their culture.

Yes, very interesting.

### Posted 25 October 2011 - 04:56 PM
Otharus, on 25 October 2011 - 08:56 AM, said:
It's remarkable that one-and-the-same word (VNDIGERHÉD) was translated in different ways (four by Sandbach, three by Ottema and Jensma)

The word "DIGER" is used three times in the OLB, but the meaning does not become very clear.

[093/20]
ALLERA MÀNNELIK JEF TO AN MERY FRU ÀND BLÍDE
ÀND NINMAN NÉDE DIGER THAN TO ÁKANE SINA NOCHT.
[O+S p.131]
Iedereen gaf toe aan lustige vreugde en blijdschap,
en niemand had zorg dan zijn vermaak [genoegen] na te jagen.
everybody gave himself up to pleasure and merry-making,
and no one thought of anything but diversion
or more litterally:
All people gave in to merry frolic and bliss (or joy),
and no-one had care about anything but to seek pleasure.

[143/25]
MEN FRYA.S FOLK IS DIGER ÀND FLITICH.
HJA WRDON MOD NER WIRG
THRVCHDAM HJARA DOL TO THA BESTA LÉIDE.
[O+S p.195]
Maar Fryas volk is wakker en vlijtig,
zij werden moede noch mat,
omdat hun doel ten beste geleidde.
but Frya's people [are careful and diligent]
[they] were neither tired nor exhausted
when [since] they had a good object in view.

[154/27]
THACH SAND HI A.DEL NÉI THÉRE BURCH ET TEX.LAND
TIL THJU HI DIGER BI DIGER KVD WERTHA MACHTA.
MITH ELLA HWAT TO VSA ÉWA TÁLE ÀND SEDUM HÉRETH.
[O+S p.209]
[toch] zond hij toch Adel naar de burgt te Texland,
opdat hij hoe eer hoe beter bekend worden mocht
met alles wat tot onze wetten, taal en zeden behoort.
Jensma: "door en door zorgvuldig"; very carefully
[yet] he sent Adel to the citadel of Texland
in order to make himself better acquainted
with our laws, language, and customs.

This is yet another example of how - even in Dutch - translation is not always easy.

It shows that Knul's statement, that OLB is just a word-for-word translation of a Dutch text, can not be right.

### Posted 25 October 2011 - 05:20 PM
Abramelin, on 25 October 2011 - 04:26 PM, said:
Exactly: like I have said many times now: he thought the OLB was a ridiclous hoax, a linguistic nightmare.
He was a linguist (or something like that), so he judged the OLB based on his knowledge of linguistics.

No, he could not win the argument on linguistic grounds, so he degraded himself by appealing to ridicule. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_ridicule

"Appeal to ridicule (...) is a logical fallacy which presents the opponent's argument in a way that appears ridiculous, often to the extent of creating a straw man of the actual argument, rather than addressing the argument itself.
(...)
This is a rhetorical tactic that mocks an opponent's argument, attempting to inspire an emotional reaction (making it a type of appeal to emotion) in the audience and to highlight the counter-intuitive aspects of that argument, making it appear foolish and contrary to common sense. This is typically done by demonstrating the argument's logic in an extremely absurd way or by presenting the argument in an overly simplified way, and often involves an appeal to consequences."

### Posted 25 October 2011 - 05:53 PM
Abramelin, on 25 October 2011 - 05:22 PM, said:
No, you keep ignoring what I said: read pages 8, 9 and 10.

I did not ignore that:

Otharus, on 25 October 2011 - 01:47 PM, said:
What good is this for our international forum members?
Of course I have studied those pages, but they don't contain the "indisputable proof" that Vinckers promised.
Obviously, you and Knul can't find it either, or you would simply quote him.

Vinckers' so-called 'proof' is referred to by all hoax-theorists, but none of them is able to reproduce or summarise it.

### Posted 25 October 2011 - 08:44 PM
Knul, on 25 October 2011 - 07:31 PM, said:
Is this a word-for-word translation or am I blind?

A word-for-word translation from OLB into modern Dutch, yes.
Some of the sentences of the translation (e.g. the very first) don't sound like modern Dutch though.
You assume that old-Dutch (old-'Westfrisian') spoken language would have had a different word order from modern Dutch.
Why?
Sorry Knul, I trust Montanus de Haan Hettema's judgement more than yours.

### Posted 25 October 2011 - 09:01 PM
THIT [dit] IS [is] LANDRIUCHT [landrecht] THERA [der] FRESENA [friezen] AND [en] SKELTANRIUCHT [schoutsrecht].
THI [de] GREWA [graaf], THER [die] AN [aan] FRESLANDE [friesland] GREWA [graaf] WESSA [wezen] SKEL [zal],
HI [hij] SKEL [zal] WESSA [wezen] FULRE [vol] BERDE [gebaard] BERN [kind] AND [en] SIN [zijn] RIUCHT [recht] UNFORLERN [onverloren].
HI [hij] SKEL [zal] TI [de] SUTHERMUTHA [zuidermond] INKOMA [inkomen] AND [en] KOMA [komen] TO [te] FRANEKERE [franeker]
IN [in] THET [dat] DEL [deel] MITH [met] WERDERE [verdere] WERE [weer],
MITH [met] THES [des] KONINGES [konings] IEFTE [toestemming],
MITH [met] BREVE [brief] AND [en] MITH [met] INSIGELE [zegel].

This is a word for word translation into modern Dutch, from Oldwestfrisian (Landlaws).

What does this proof?
That it's a modern fabrication?
Or that the syntax of old-Frisian (= old-Dutch) has not changed much through the ages.

### Posted 26 October 2011 - 07:41 AM
Knul, on 25 October 2011 - 11:54 PM, said:
Do you really think, this is a grammatical correct sentence in Dutch ?

Yes, not less so than your word-for-word translations of the OLB.

"Dit is landrecht der Friezen en schoutsrecht.
De graaf, die aan Friesland graaf wezen zal,
hij zal wezen vol gebaard kind en zijn recht onverloren.
Hij zal de Zuidermond inkomen en komen te Franeker in dat deel met verdere weer,
met des konings toestemming, met brief en met zegel."

Of course the 'creator' added some quasi-old expressions to make us believe it's old. (LOL)

### Posted 26 October 2011 - 07:45 AM
The Puzzler, on 26 October 2011 - 01:44 AM, said:
(about DIGER)
BUT ABE ALREADY CAME UP WITH DILIGENT, I missed that post lol.

A connection with "dignity", as you suggest, makes more sense.
Thanks for that.

### Posted 26 October 2011 - 08:12 PM
Abramelin, on 26 October 2011 - 01:36 PM, said:
You are not the one trying to expose a hoax...

Wiki: "A hoax is a deliberately fabricated falsehood made to masquerade as truth."

One of the things I do is translate some of the Dutch disinformation that was published about the OLB, so international researchers can draw their own conclusions.

Quote
One of those documents was written by Beckering-Vinckers, and all you, Otharus, have posted about this guy is that he 'hated' the OLB. You only translated those parts where he used language that was easily translatable into English, but not the parts where he actually explains why he did come to his conclusions.

That he despised the OLB (which is obvious) is relevant, because it blurred his judgement.

I also showed how it was probably the content of the book, rather than the language, that mostly horrified him.
("Those pre-Christian Oera-Linda's have a very worrying, utterly advanced ideology.")

In other words; he may very well have had a religious-political motive to ridicule (= neutralise) the OLB.

Besides appeal to ridicule, he used some other typical pseudoscientific tricks, like bluffing with an overwhelming amount of complex irrelevant information and excessive use of terms and phrases like "indisputable proof", "irrefutable fact", "infallible method", "anyone will certainly understand", "most abundant and convincing truth", etc..
(Note: Jensma likes to use similar words too.)

Furthermore, I showed that respected (real!) experts (like de Haan Hettema) of his time did by no means agree with him.

As for "the parts where he actually explains why he did come to his conclusions";

I'm working on that now, and will demonstrate why he was wrong, since neither you nor Knul seem to be able to show why he was right. You just blindly parrot his conclusion, without understanding it. (Was someone talking about "religious belief"? Who's the skeptic here? LOL!)

### Posted 26 October 2011 - 08:50 PM
The Puzzler, on 26 October 2011 - 02:27 PM, said:
All these Dutch people dissing the OLB, makes me think they have an agenda to discredit it. That's OK, any opinions given by them are sure to be filled with arrogance, which is pretty much what Otharus pointed out.

Thanks, that's exactly the point.
The anti-OLB campain of the 1870s was so aggressive and malicious, that it not only drove diligent, honourable and innocent Ottema into despair, but also discouraged any other respected scholar to say or write anything positive about the OLB.

### Posted 26 October 2011 - 09:02 PM
The Puzzler, on 26 October 2011 - 03:07 PM, said:
I made this up, I have it in my new Saami thread but I made it for this one, that's why it has Wralda on it. One thing that stood out clearly to me as I was researching it is the name of the Father of the Tribe - the first Male spirit - the Maadteraahjah. I find this TOO similiar to the father of the Tribe of Hebrews, the father of Abraham, Terah. Not to mention their Torah but I won't even start on that.

Interesting indeed. If I had more time, I'd love to know all of it.
I remember AKKA was also mentioned in the Bock Saga (Finland).
Did you ever listen to the YouTube videos about it? (Much better than reading!)
A good one to start with: http://youtu.be/tbeVAPbgaWg
I think you'd love it and you might find more language links.
Before I discovered the OLB, I learnt about the Bock Saga and it's "Root"-language, which is like old-Swedish, and this made it much easier to read and understand the OLB language later.

### Posted 26 October 2011 - 09:50 PM
The full article by Vinckers (1876) is here:
http://www.dbnl.org/.../vinc015onec01_01_0001.php

His mistake was that he assumed that Oldfrisian from the 13th (?) century laws had evolved from Gothic from the 4th century, that would have had evolved from old-Greek.

He concluded that the OLB-Frisian was most similar to Oldfrisian, while in his expectation a proto-language would have to be more 'pure', less 'worn out' (as he said), than Gothic and Greek.

Oldfrisian of the law texts is obviously related to Gothic, but probably more like a cousin, than like a descendant.
Gothic seems to be more related to Greek, than Oldfrisian.

Here are the conjugations of "to find", listed by Vinckers:

Indicative
Praesens. - - - Goth. - - - - - O.fri.

Sing. - - - - - fintha- - - - - finde (I find)
- - - - - - - - finthis - - - - findest (you)
- - - - - - - - finthith- - - - findeth (he/she)

Plur. - - - - - fintham - - - - findath (you plur.)
- - - - - - - - finthith- - - - findath (we)
- - - - - - - - finthand- - - - findath (they)

Praet.- - - - - fanth - - - - - fand (I found)
- - - - - - - - fanst - - - - - funde
- - - - - - - - fanth - - - - - fand

- - - - - - - - funthum - - - - fundon
- - - - - - - - funthuth- - - - fundon
- - - - - - - - funthun - - - - fundon

Now, the verb "to find" as found in the OLB:

to find: FINDA, FINDANDE, FINDNE

he/she finds: FINDATH

he/she found: FUND, FAND
they found: FUNDON, FANDON

(was) found: FUNDEN

(U and V are both used)

One of BV's conclusions:

"Much of what in Greek is still distinguished, has become the same in Gothic. Anyone will certainly understand that in Oldfrisian of ± 550 BC, older than the Greek of Aeschylus and Pindarus, infinitely more old constructions should have been saved, than in Gothic of 350 AD."

Original text:
"Veel van 't geen 't Grieksch nog onderscheidt is in 't Gothisch gelijk geworden. Iedereen zal zeker begrijpen dat Oudfriesch van ± 550 VOOR Chr., dat dus ouder is dan het Grieksch van Aeschylus en Pindarus, oneindig veel meer ouds moest bewaard hebben dan 't Gothisch van 350 NA Chr."

### Posted 27-10-2011, 06:50 PM
Knul, on 26 October 2011 - 10:55 PM, said:
... no one has ever tried to write a grammar of the OLB, nor produced a vocabulary of the OLB, not even a better list of names and geographical names with explanations than Sandbach's.

Dr. Ottema wrote a dictionary, name-list and Grammar, of which I have a copy.
I used that to make the following post, exactly a year-and-a-day ago.

Otharus, on 26 October 2010 - 06:54 PM, said:
This inspired me to make an improvised list of Toponyms, mentioned in OLB,
based on a list by Dr. Jan Ottema, transcribed by Mr. N. Luitse.
(accents on A and O were ignored)

AKEN - Aken (Aachen)
ALDERGAMUNDE - mouth of Flymeer, near Ouddorp
ALDLAND, ATLAND - Old Land
ALKMARUM - Alkmaar
ALMANLAND - Ameland
ALPA - Alps
ASTFLYLAND - (East-) Friesland (from Vlie to Eems)
ATHENIA - Athens
ATTIKA - Attika
[...]

Note:
Goffe Jensma did not include an index to the OLB, because this "would encourage a realistic reading attitude" (!).
("Een index op het boek zou deze realistische leeshouding slechts aanwakkeren en is om die reden niet opgenomen." (Het Oera Linda-boek 2006, page 59)

### Posted 27-10-2011, 10:04 PM
Halbertsma had something with Hindeloopen, he considered it's culture as most traditionally Frisian.
He was fascinated with the long hair-braids and he collected garments and house-goods, which he donated later to the first Frisian museum.

Knul and Abe, you believe that Halbertsma was the creative genius behind the OLB (while some others changed and added things later).
How do you explain the fact that OLB contains loads of trivia, but says NOTHING about Hindeloopen and the hair-braids? See fragments below.

"The braiding of the hair in Hindeloopen, according to J.H. Halbertsma a tradition that was already described by Roman writer Tacitus, and that is characteristic for the free Frisians.
[...]
In two rooms [of the Palace of Justice in Leeuwarden] the Antiquarian Cabinet of Friesland was situated... [...]
In there the traditional garments from Hindeloopen were kept, that honorary member dr. Joost Hiddes Halbertsma (1789-1869), the famous Frisian linguist and literary man, had collected and donated to the Cabinet. [...]
Collecting traditional garments was still an unknown phenomenon in the rest of the Netherlands.
Halbertsma was intrigued by the culture of Hindeloopen. [...] His first notes date from 1820. [...]
The casques from Hindeloopen [...] were so capacious, that long braids could be rolled and placed under them, so there was no need to cut the hair. Halbertsma explained: "Because of those long braids the Frisian women were not just the women of a free people, but of the most distinguished women of the Germanic races; this in contrast to the unfree, who were forced by the old Germans to wear their hair short." With this Halbertsma made a direct connection between the Frisian popular culture and the description of habits of the old Germans by Roman writers. [...]
The Frisian Cabinet received many objects from folks-culture as a gift from Halbertsma, like garments and household goods, mostly from Hindeloopen."

These were fragments of:
The Frisian Society as frontrunner in museological understanding - 19th Century initiatives to musealization of folks-culture in Friesland
by Ad de Jong (2002)

Original title and fragments:
Het Fries Genootschap als koploper in museaal besef - Negentiende eeuwse initiatieven tot musealisering van de volkscultuur in Friesland
"Het vlechten van het haar in Hindeloopen, volgens J.H. Halbertsma een traditie die al door de Romeinse schrijver Tacitus beschreven is en kenmerkend is voor de vrije Friezen.
[...]
In twee lokalen [van het Paleis van Justitie te Leeuwarden] bevond zich het Antiquarisch Kabinet van Friesland... [...]
Daarin waren de Hindelooper kledingstukken opgeborgen, die het erelid dr. Joost Hiddes Halbertsma (1789-1869), de beroemde Friese taal- en letterkundige, had verzameld en geschonken aan het Kabinet. [...]
Het verzamelen van klederdrachten was toen in de rest van Nederland een nog onbekend verschijnsel.
Halbertsma werd [...] geïntrigeerd door de Hindelooper cultuur. [...] Zijn eerste aantekeningen dateren zelfs van 1820. [...]
De Hindelooper kappen [...] waren zo ruim, dat daaronder lange vlechten kunnen worden opgerold, zodat het haar niet kort geknipt hoefde te worden. Halbertsma gaf daarbij de volgende toelichting: ‘Door die lange vlechten plaatsten de Friezinnen zich niet slechts onder de vrouwen van een vrij volk, maar onder de aanzienlijkste vrouwen der Germaansche rassen’; dit in tegenstelling tot de onvrijen, die bij de oude Germanen verplicht waren kort haar te dragen’. Halbertsma legde hier een direct verband tussen de Friese volkscultuur en de beschrijving van de gewoonten bij de oude Germanen van de hand van Romeinse schrijvers. [...]
Het Fries Kabinet [kreeg] van Halbertsma een groot aantal objecten uit de volkscultuur ten geschenke zoals kleding en huisraad, merendeels afkomstig uit Hindeloopen."
Source: http://www.friesgenootschap.nl/artikelen/dejong.htm