Posted 27 September 2013 - 09:25 AM
Abramelin, on 26 September 2013 - 09:10 PM, said:
We don't need wordfck, we need material proof. And if that never shows up, you all will be nitpicking about words till hell freezes over.
What you contemptuously term "wordfck" and "nitpicking about words" is a detailed study of the OLB language, often in relation to existing NW-European languages.
This study is relevant because it refutes one of the main reasons why OLB was rejected as being authentic: that the language would be gibberish and obviously fake.
(The other reason being that the paper would be 'obviously' from the 19th century, while there is no serious research report to support this claim.)
My posts about Rika's letter illustrates how much gets lost in the existing translations, specially the english one by Sandbach.
===
Posted 27 September 2013 - 12:47 PM
The Puzzler, on 27 September 2013 - 09:28 AM, said:
So mam/mem is a form of breastfeeding person (nurse etc) from a form of mammary I gather and mother is only a term for the actual Mothers.
So mam/mem is acceptable in Fryan but not mother because Mother is a term for only the Mothers.
So mam/mem is acceptable in Fryan but not mother because Mother is a term for only the Mothers.
Almost there.
Let's focus on the relevant fragments:
1)
AK WIVA THER HJARA BERN MAMA LÉTA AN HJARA BROSTA
WERTHAT FÉDSTRA HÉTEN
(my translation:)
Also wives who let their children MAMA (breastfeed) on their breasts
are named FÉDSTRA (feederesses, fosters, nurses... 'fatheresses'!)
(Sandbach:)
Women who nourish their children at their breasts
are called nurses
=> In this fragment it becomes clear that the noun MAM (from next fragment, meaning mother) is related to the verb MAMA (to breastfeed). This was lost in Sandbachs translation.
2)
THAT JRTHA BYHWILA WARTH AL.FÉDSTRE HETEN
AND ÉNE MAM FÉDSTRE
KAN JETA THRVCH.NE WENDE
(me:)
That JRTHA (Earth) sometimes is named AL-FÉDSTRE (all-feederess),
and a MAM (breastfeeding mama or mother) FÉDSTRE (feederess),
can yet go through a curve (is acceptable)
(Sandbach:)
That Irtha should be called the universal nourisher,
and that a mother should be called a feeder,
one can understand
=> My translation may have been confusing here. MAM in Fryan meant mother, also when she was not breastfeeding. But the word was related to breastfeeding and in this particular fragment it is made clear why it is acceptable to name a mother 'feederess' or 'fatheress', while she feeds or has fed her children.
3)
AK MOT IK MY VR FÉLO JOWER WIVA BIKLAGJA.
WERTHAT BY JO MAN FVNDEN
THAM MITH WRALDA AN ÉN LIN WILLE
THÉR WERTHAT BY JO WIVA FVNDEN
THÉR ET MITH FRYA WILLE.
VMBE THAT HJA BERN BÉRED HAVE
LÉTATH HJA HJARA SELVA MODAR HÉTA.
THA HJA VRJETTATH THAT FRYA BERN BÉRDE
SVNDER JENGONG ÉNIS MAN.
JA. NAVT ALLÉNA THAT HJA FRYA AND THA ÉRE.MODAR
FON HJARA GLOR.RIKA NOMA BIRAWA WILLE
HWÉRAN HJA TACH NAVT NAKA NE MUGE.
(me:)
I must also complain about many of your wives.
Like men are found among you
who want to be on one level (line) with Wralda,
also wives are found among you
who want the same with Frya.
Because they have borne BERN (children),
they have themselves be named MODAR ('Mooder', 'Mother'; an honorary title);
But they forget that Frya bore children
without ingoing of a man.
Yes, not only that they want to rob Frya and the ÉRE.MODAR (honorary Mothers-of-the-people)
of their glory-rich names,
with whom they indeed cannot be equal,
(Sandbach:)
I have also much to complain of against your wives.
If there are men among you
who wish to put themselves on a level with Wr-alda,
there are also women
who wish to consider themselves equals of Frya.
Because they have borne children,
they call themselves mothers;
but they forget that Frya bore children
without having intercourse with a man.
Yes, they not only have desired to rob Frya and the Eeremoeders
of their honourable title
(with whom they cannot put themselves upon an equality),
=> So Rika's complaint is, that these women are unjustly named MODAR, as this was an honorary title for FRYA (and Folk-mothers or Burg-mothers who were so-called Mothers of the people)
I do realise better now how complex this fragment is. It really requires focussed reading and contemplating.
So once more in a table:
A - traditinal Fryan, according to Rika
B - degenerated Fryan, according to Rika
C - Modern English
A_________B_________C____________
MAM . . . MODAR . . mom, normal mother
MODAR . . MODAR . . folkmother or burgmother, also used for Frya
(note: Rika used the spelling MODAR, but everywhere else in the OLB, the spelling is MODER)
So Rika's concern was that the distinction between normal mothers and honorary mothers (of the people) got lost by use of the term MODAR (instead of MAM) for normal mothers.
This texts actually has a deep meaning as it is in a way symbolic for the whole decline of matriarchy (with Wralda as the only real 'provider') and the rise of patriarchy (with many kings, lords and idols who had to be paid tributes or offerings to as they were unjustly so-called 'providers', 'feeders', fathers).
Comparable table for the term FÉDER:
A_________B_________C____________
TAT . . . FÉDER . . dad, normal father
FÉDER . . FÉDER . . feeder, one of the honorary names of Wralda
===
Posted 27 September 2013 - 01:22 PM
The Puzzler, on 27 September 2013 - 09:28 AM, said:
So mam/mem is a form of breastfeeding person (nurse etc) from a form of mammary I gather and mother is only a term for the actual Mothers.
Some examples to demonstrate that MÀM or MEM simply meant a normal mother, whitout a direct relation to breastfeeding:
(Translations from Sandbach)
IK RÉDE JO THAT J HIM ÀND SIN MÀM TO THÀT LÁND UT.DRIVA
I counsel you to expel him and his mother from the land (p.21)
ÀFTER MÀM ÀND BROTHERIS DÁD
After the death of
SIN MÀM WÉRE THJU TOGHATER ENIS KÉNING
===
Posted 30 September 2013 - 10:08 AM
The Puzzler, on 27 September 2013 - 01:47 PM, said:
Mother/moder is interesting in the context of the name for Frya who had not intercourse with a man.
[...]
[...]
That's the part of Rika's discourse I dislike most.
It shows that the creation myth - in which three primal mothers were born from the Earth and impregnated by the mysterious "Wralsa'd od" - was actually presented (at least by some Famna) as if it were factual, instead of symbolic. This is typical for priesthoods that were despised by the Fryas.
Also, it doesn't make sense. It's not the presumed immaculate conception of Frya that makes her a MODER, but the fact that she was seen as the mother of the Fryan people; a folk-mother. The Fryas saw themselves as FRYAS-BERN (children of Frya).
Quote
In Germanic tat as dad relates more to deed, they did the deed, got someone pregnant - rather than tat as teat/feeder - a deed-doer (I would have never guessed that, but it seems obvious now) [...]
From Old High German tat (akin to Old Saxon dad) [...]. Compare Low German Daat, Dutch daad, English deed, Danish dåd [...]
Noun
Tat f (genitive Tat, plural Taten)
1. deed
2. act
From Old High German tat (akin to Old Saxon dad) [...]. Compare Low German Daat, Dutch daad, English deed, Danish dåd [...]
Noun
Tat f (genitive Tat, plural Taten)
1. deed
2. act
===
Posted 30 September 2013 - 10:34 AM
The Puzzler, on 27 September 2013 - 01:53 PM, said:
Sandbach probably should have used Mum (in English) even though general use nowadays uses mother in it's place. (Knowing that mother is not really mem/mam)
The biggest dilemma (imo) in translating the OLB, is whether to stay as close the original words as possible, or use words that more reflect the probable meaning.
For us, "mum" is very informal. In OLB "mam" simply means (a normal) "mother"; it's not informal. So while the translation "mum" is closer to the original word "mam", the translation "mother" is closer to the meaning of "mam".
Other example from Hiddes letter to Okke (first unnumbered page):
THISSA BOKA MOT I MITH LIF AND SÉLE WARJA.
You must protect these books with life and soul.
For us, the general meaning of "books" is printed and published books. (Of course there's also notebooks, scrapbooks.)
The "BOKA" in Hiddes letter are handcopied documents (or one handcopied book, not plural).
Another example (there's very many more):
BYLDON was translated by Ottema into "beelden", which is usually interpreted as statues. So Sandbach translated it as "statues".
But it can also mean pictures, images (Dutch: afbeeldingen, German: bilder).
The fact that oh, so many words and fragments in OLB are impossible to translate is another reason why it is utterly unlikely that it is a fabrication.
===
Posted 02 October 2013 - 01:44 PM
gestur, on 30 September 2013 - 10:34 AM, said:
BYLDON was translated by Ottema into "beelden", which is usually interpreted as statues. So Sandbach translated it as "statues".
But it can also mean pictures, images (Dutch: afbeeldingen, German: bilder).
But it can also mean pictures, images (Dutch: afbeeldingen, German: bilder).
Correction:
Sandbach did actually translate this word half of the times as "images".
The term BYLD or BILD is heavily charged in the OLB. It is often associated with competing or threatening cultures (or priesthoods).
Symbols, images, imagination can indeed be a powerful tool to win the hearts and minds of people, to indoctrinate them, to install fear (and guilt), to enslave them or inspire them.
In orthodox Islam it is still taboo to create images. In the christian reformation of the 16th century, catholic images were destroyed by the protestants.
Much more can be said about this topic, but for now I will focus on the fragments.
Words and spelling variety
vorbild - german
voorbeeld - dutch
example - english
FÁRBILD - 1
FÁRBYLD - 13
===
sinnbild - german
zinnebeeld - dutch
symbol - english
SINNA.BYLD - 2
SINE.BYLD - 3
SINNE BILD - 5
===
bildnis - german
beeltenis - dutch
image, statue - english
BYLDNESE - 4
BYLDNISSE - 9
===
bild(er) - german
beeld(en) - dutch
image(s), statue(s) - english
singular:
BYLD - 16a
plural:
BYLDON - 6, 17ab, 19, 20abc
BYLDA - 14bc, 15a, 16b
BYLDUM - 15b
FALSKA DROCHTEN.LIKANDE BYLDUM - 7
FALSKA DROCHTEN LIKANDA ÀND VNTUCHTIGA BILDA - 10
DROCHTEN.LIKANDA BYLDA - 14a
DROCHTENLIKA BYLDON - 18
TJODA DROCHTEN LÍKANDA BYLDON - 22
SKÉNE BYLDA - 11
===
denkbeelden - dutch
thoughts, ideas ('think-images') - english
THÀNK.BYLDA - 12
===
verbeelden - dutch
to imagine - english
FORBYLDE - 8
===
was uitgebeeld, afgebeeld - dutch
was represented, depicted - english
WAS UT EBYLD - 21
=================================
Fragments (O-S = Ottema/ Sandbach)
1 [002/29] Adela's speech
THRVCH THÀT WLE FÁRBILD FON.A WÉI BROCHT
[O-S p.7]
door het slechte voorbeeld van den weg gebracht
led astray by this bad example
2 [032/21] Minno
ÉWA. IS ÁK THET ORA SINNA.BYLD FON WR.ALDA.S GÁST
[O-S p.47]
Ewa (eeuwig) is ook het andere zinnebeeld van Wralda['s geest]
Eternity [:'ewa', laws, centuries] is [also] another [:the second] symbol of Wr-alda['s goast, spirit]
3 [034/18] Minerva
THISE ÀJAR SEND THAT SINE.BYLD FON FRYA.S RÉD.JÉVINGA
WÉRIN VSA TO KVMSTE FORHÉLEN HLÉIT
[O-S p.51]
Deze eijeren zijn het zinnebeeld van Frya’s raadgevingen,
waarin onze toekomst verholen ligt
These eggs are the symbols of Frya's counsels,
in which our future [...] lies concealed.
4 [038/08] Minerva
HJRA BYLDNESE STÀLDON HJA VPPA HJARA ÀLTÀRUM
JEFTHA HJA VRSELLADE.T ANDA DVMA MÀNNISKA
[O-S p.55]
Zij stelden haar beeld [:beeltenis] op hunne altaren,
[-] of verkochten [het] aan de domme menschen
Theyerected statues to her [installed her image] on all their altars,
[-] [or] sold [it] to the simple [:dumb] people
5 [045/04] That Jol
THÀT JOL. THÀT IS THÀT FORMA SINNE BILD WR.ALDA.S
[O-S p.65]
het Juul [Jol], dat is het eerste zinnebeeld van Wralda
theJuul [Jol, Yol] — that is, the first symbol of Wr-alda
6 [051/21] Magjara
NW HJA KÀRKA HÀVE. ÁK BYLDON
[O-S p.73]
in de [nu zij] kerken hebben zij [,] ook beelden
[now that they have churches,] also statues [-]
7 [055/23] Wodin
THAWÍLA HI SIN FRYA HALS BOG
TOFARA FALSKA DROCHTEN.LIKANDE BYLDUM
[O-S p.79]
terwijl hij zijn vrije hals boog
voor de valsche gedrochtelijke beelden
while he bent his free head [:neck]
before the false and deceitful [:idol-like] images
8 [061/18] Gola
SÁ LUKLIK AS NINMÀN HIN SELVA MOCHT FORBYLDE
[O-S p.87]
zoo gelukkig, als niemand zich konde verbeelden
so happythat [as] no one could form any idea of it [imagine]
9 [072/29] Minerva
FORTH JAVON HJA THAT FOLK BYLDNISSE FON HIRA LIKNESS
TJUGANDE THAT HJA THÉRAN ELLA FRÉJA MACHTE
ALSANAKA HJA HÉROCH BILÉWON
[O-S p.103]
Daarop gaven zij het volk beeldtenissen van hare gelijkenis,
betuigende dat zij daaraan alles mochten vragen,
zoo lang zij gehoorzaam bleven.
Thereupon they gave the people statues of her,
declaring that they might ask of them whatever they liked,
as long as they were obedientto her.
10 [078/18] Athenja
VMBE BY THA WLA PRESTRUM INEN GODA HROP TO WÉSANDE
STÀLDON HJA THÉR FALSKA DROCHTEN LIKANDA ÀND VNTUCHTIGA BILDA
[O-S p.109]
om bij de vuile priesteren in een goedendunk [roep] te wezen,
plaatsten [stelden] zij daar op valsche goden gelijkende en ontuchtige beelden in
in order to remain in good odour with the nasty priests,
they placed there likenesses of false gods and unchaste statues
11 [100/18] Formlere
HJARA GÁST SLÁVTH HIM SELVA IMMER OF
VMBE SKÉNE BYLDA TO MÁKJANDE THÉR Y ÀFTERNÉI ANBID
[O-S p.139]
hun geest slooft zich altijd af
om schoone beelden te maken, die zij [hij] naderhandaanbidden [aanbidt]
their spirit [always] labours [:'slaves off itself']
to create beautiful statues [:'shining' images], whichthey [it] afterwards worship[-s]
12 [102/29] Formlere
THÀT SINA THÀNK.BYLDA WIXLE THA HWILER SÉID IK THÀNK
[O-S p.141]
dat zijne denkbeelden veranderen [:wisselen], terwijl hij zegt: ik denk
that his thoughts [:ideas, 'think-images'] change even while he says, I think
13 [103/27] Trast
TÁL ÀND ANDWARDE ORA FÁMNA TO.N FÁRBYLD
[O-S p.143]
Taal en antwoord aan andere maagden tot een voorbeeld
Speech and answer to other maidens as an example
14 [114/06] Frethorik - 3x
FRYA HÉD.VS LÉTEN. HJRA WÁK.FÁMKES HÉDE HJU ABEFTA HALDEN.
HWAND DROCHTEN.LIKANDA BYLDA WÉRON BINNA VSA LÁND.PÀLA FVNDEN.
IK BRONDE FON NYS.GÍR. VMBE THI BYLDA TO BISJAN [...]
JEF HJU MI ÀRGE TID ÀND THA BYLDA RÉIS WISA WILDE
[O-S p.157]
Frya had ons verlaten; zij had hare waakmeisjes terug gehouden;
want gedrochtelijke (afgods)beelden waren binnen onze landpalen gevonden.
Ik brande van nieuwsgierigheid om die beelden te zien. [...]
of zij mij debooze [erge] tijd en de beelden eens [wijzen] wilde toonen.
Frya hadforsaken [left] us. She withheld from us all her watch-maidens,
because monstrous idolatrous images had been found within our landmarks [:-poles].
I burnt with curiosity [:'newsgreed'] to see those images. [...]
if she would show me the bad times and the images.
15 [114/27] Frethorik - 2x
THA WALDA THÉR BYLDA IN WÉRON [...]
THA WALDA MITHA BYLDUM DRÉVON NÉI SÉ
[O-S p.159]
De wouden, daar beelden in waren, [...]
de wouden met de beelden dreven naar zee
The woods in which the images were, [...]
the forests with the images drifted out to sea
16 [132/21] the Joniers - 2x
HWERSA IMMAN EN BYLD MÁKATH ÀFTER ÉNNEN VRSTURVEN ÀND THET LIKT
SÁ LÁWATH HJA THÀT THENE GÁST THES VRSTURVENE THÉR INNE FÁRATH.
THÉRVR HÀVATH HJA ALLE BYLDA VRBURGEN.
FON FRYA. FÀSTA. MÉDÉA. THJANJA. HELLÉNJA ÀND FÉLO OTHERA
[O-S p.181]
Wanneer iemand een beeld maakt naar een afgestorvene en het gelijkt,
dan gelooven zij, dat de geest des overledene daarin vaart.
Daarom hebben zij alle beelden verborgen
van Frya, Fâsta, Medea, Thiania [:Diana], Hellenia en vele andere.
When they make a statue of a dead person [and it resembles]
they believe that the spirit of the departed enters into it;
therefore they have hidden their statues
of Frya, Fâsta, Medea, Thiania [:Diana], Hellenia, and many others.
17 [139/04] false priests of the Yes-us/ Buda cult - 2x
INNA HOLA THÉRA BERGA GVNGON HJA HÉMA.
THACH THÉRIN HÉDON HJA HJARA SKÀT BROCHT.
THÉR BINNA MÁKADON HJA BYLDON ÀFTER JES.US.
THESSA BYLDON JÁVON HJA AN THA VNÀRG THÀNKANDA LJUDA.
TO LONGA LERSTA SÉIDON HJA THÀT JES.US EN DROCHTEN WÉRE.
THÀT.I THÀT SELVA AN HJAM BILÉDEN HÉDE.
ÀND THÀT ALLE THÉR AN HIM. ÀND AN SINA LÉRA LÁWA WILDE
NÉIMELS IN SIN KÉNINGKRIK KVMA SKOLDE.
HWÉR FRÜ IS ÀND NOCHTA SEND
[O-S p.189]
Zij gingen in de holen der bergen wonen,
doch hierin hadden zij hunne schatten gebracht,
daar binnen maakten zij beelden vanJessos [Jes-us].
Deze beelden gaven ze aan de onergdenkende lieden;
ten langen laatste zeiden zij datJessos [Jes-us] een godheid was,
dat hij zelf dit aan hun had beleden,
en dat allen die aan hem en zijne leer gelooven wilden,
hiernamaals in zijn koningrijk zouden komen,
waar vreugde is en genietingen zijn.
They went to live in caves in the mountains,
but in them they had hid all their treasures,
and they made in them images ofJessos [Yes-us].
They gave these statues to simple [:'unbadthinking'] people,
and at last they said thatJessos [Yes-us] was a god,
that he had declared this himself to them,
and that all those who followed his doctrine
should enter his kingdom hereafter,
where all was joy and happiness.
18 [164/14] Pangab
IN THET LOND SIND OLLE PRESTERA TJOK ÀND RIK.
IN HJARA CHÀRKA WERTHAT OLLERLÉJA DROCHTENLIKA BYLDON FVNDEN.
THÉR VNDER SIND FÉLO GOLDEN MANK
[O-S p.223]
In dit land zijn alle priesters dik en rijk.
In hunne kerken worden allerlei gedrochtelijke beelden gevonden,
daaronder zijn vele van goud.
In this country [:land] all the priests are fat and rich.
In their churches there are all kinds of monstrous ['idol-like'] images,
many of them of gold.
19 [164/32] Pangab
THA ÍRA NE SIND NÉNE ÍRA MÁR GODA MINSKA
THER NÉNA BYLDON TOLÉTA NACH ONBIDDA.
ÁK WILLATH SE NÉNA CHÀRKA NACH PRESTAR DOGA.
[O-S p.223]
De Yren zijn geen wilden, maar goede menschen,
die geen beelden toelaten noch aanbidden:
ook willen ze geen kerken noch priesteren dulden [:gedogen]
The Yren are not savages, but good people,
who neither pray to nor tolerate images;
neither will theysuffer [allow] priests or churches
20 [191/05] Rika's letter - 3x
THÁ THA KÀNINGGAR ET ALSA WÍD BROCHT HÉDE
THÀT HJA FÉDERUM THÉRA FOLKAR HÉTE THÁ GVNGON HJA TO
ÀND LÉTON BYLDON ÀFTER HJARA DÁNTNE MÁKJA
THISSA BYLDON LÉTON HJA INNA THA CHERKA STALLA NÉST THA BYLDON THÉRA DROCHTNE
ÀND THI JENA THAM THÉR NAVT FAR BUGJA NILDE
WARTH OM BROCHT JEFTHA AN KÉDNE DÉN
[O-S p.231]
Toen de koningen het zoo ver gebracht hadden,
dat zij vaderen [:voeders] der volken heetten, gingen zij heen
en lieten beelden naar hunne gedaante maken;
deze beelden lieten zij in de kerken stellen naast de beelden der afgoden,
en degene die daar niet voor buigen wilde,
werd omgebracht of in ketenen gedaan.
When the kings had accomplished
that they should be called fathers [:feeders] of the people,
they had statues of themselves made,
and erected [these statues] in the churches beside the statues of the idols,
and those who would not bow down to them
were either killed or put in chains.
21 [205/07] Askar
EN GOLDEN SKILD HWÉRVPPA ÁSKAR HIS DÁNTE KUNSTA LIK WAS UT EBYLD
[O-S p.247]
een gouden schild, waarop Askars gedaante kunstig was afgebeeld
a golden shield on which Askar' s portrait was artistically represented
22 [205/15] Askar
KIRT AFTER THÀT ÁSKAR MITH FRÉTHO.GUNSTA BOSTIGJATH WAS
WÀRTH THÉR TO STÁVEREN ÉNE SCHERKE BVWED.
INNA THJU SCHERKE WRDON TJODA DROCHTEN LÍKANDA BYLDON STALTH.
MITH GOLD TRVCH WROCHTNE KLÁTHAR.
ÁK IS ER BIWÉRATH HAT ÁSKAR THÉR NACHTIS ÀND VNTÍDIS
MITH FRÉTHO.GUNSTA FÁR NITHER BUWGADE
[O-S p.247]
Kort nadat Askar met Frethogunsta getrouwd was,
werd er te Staveren eene kerk gebouwd;
in de kerk werden booze gedrochtelijke beelden gesteld,
met goud doorwevene kleederen.
Ook is er beweerd dat Askar bij nacht en bij ontijde
met Frethogunsta zich daar voor nederboog.
Soon after Askar had married Frethogunsta,
a church was built at Staveren.
In the church were placed monstrous ['idol-like'] images,
bedecked with goldwoven dresses.
It is also said that Askar, by night, and at unseasonable times,
kneeled to them with Frethogunsta
vorbild - german
voorbeeld - dutch
example - english
FÁRBILD - 1
FÁRBYLD - 13
===
sinnbild - german
zinnebeeld - dutch
symbol - english
SINNA.BYLD - 2
SINE.BYLD - 3
SINNE BILD - 5
===
bildnis - german
beeltenis - dutch
image, statue - english
BYLDNESE - 4
BYLDNISSE - 9
===
bild(er) - german
beeld(en) - dutch
image(s), statue(s) - english
singular:
BYLD - 16a
plural:
BYLDON - 6, 17ab, 19, 20abc
BYLDA - 14bc, 15a, 16b
BYLDUM - 15b
FALSKA DROCHTEN.LIKANDE BYLDUM - 7
FALSKA DROCHTEN LIKANDA ÀND VNTUCHTIGA BILDA - 10
DROCHTEN.LIKANDA BYLDA - 14a
DROCHTENLIKA BYLDON - 18
TJODA DROCHTEN LÍKANDA BYLDON - 22
SKÉNE BYLDA - 11
===
denkbeelden - dutch
thoughts, ideas ('think-images') - english
THÀNK.BYLDA - 12
===
verbeelden - dutch
to imagine - english
FORBYLDE - 8
===
was uitgebeeld, afgebeeld - dutch
was represented, depicted - english
WAS UT EBYLD - 21
=================================
Fragments (O-S = Ottema/ Sandbach)
1 [002/29] Adela's speech
THRVCH THÀT WLE FÁRBILD FON.A WÉI BROCHT
[O-S p.7]
door het slechte voorbeeld van den weg gebracht
led astray by this bad example
2 [032/21] Minno
ÉWA. IS ÁK THET ORA SINNA.BYLD FON WR.ALDA.S GÁST
[O-S p.47]
Ewa (eeuwig) is ook het andere zinnebeeld van Wralda['s geest]
Eternity [:'ewa', laws, centuries] is [also] another [:the second] symbol of Wr-alda['s goast, spirit]
3 [034/18] Minerva
THISE ÀJAR SEND THAT SINE.BYLD FON FRYA.S RÉD.JÉVINGA
WÉRIN VSA TO KVMSTE FORHÉLEN HLÉIT
[O-S p.51]
Deze eijeren zijn het zinnebeeld van Frya’s raadgevingen,
waarin onze toekomst verholen ligt
These eggs are the symbol
in which our future [...] lies concealed.
4 [038/08] Minerva
HJRA BYLDNESE STÀLDON HJA VPPA HJARA ÀLTÀRUM
JEFTHA HJA VRSELLADE.T ANDA DVMA MÀNNISKA
[O-S p.55]
Zij stelden haar beeld [:beeltenis] op hunne altaren,
[-] of verkochten [het] aan de domme menschen
They
[-] [or] sold [it] to the simple [:dumb] people
5 [045/04] That Jol
THÀT JOL. THÀT IS THÀT FORMA SINNE BILD WR.ALDA.S
[O-S p.65]
het Juul [Jol], dat is het eerste zinnebeeld van Wralda
the
6 [051/21] Magjara
NW HJA KÀRKA HÀVE. ÁK BYLDON
[O-S p.73]
[now that they have churches,] also statues [-]
7 [055/23] Wodin
THAWÍLA HI SIN FRYA HALS BOG
TOFARA FALSKA DROCHTEN.LIKANDE BYLDUM
[O-S p.79]
terwijl hij zijn vrije hals boog
voor de valsche gedrochtelijke beelden
while he bent his free head [:neck]
before the false and deceitful [:idol-like] images
8 [061/18] Gola
SÁ LUKLIK AS NINMÀN HIN SELVA MOCHT FORBYLDE
[O-S p.87]
zoo gelukkig, als niemand zich konde verbeelden
so happy
9 [072/29] Minerva
FORTH JAVON HJA THAT FOLK BYLDNISSE FON HIRA LIKNESS
TJUGANDE THAT HJA THÉRAN ELLA FRÉJA MACHTE
ALSANAKA HJA HÉROCH BILÉWON
[O-S p.103]
Daarop gaven zij het volk beeldtenissen van hare gelijkenis,
betuigende dat zij daaraan alles mochten vragen,
zoo lang zij gehoorzaam bleven.
Thereupon they gave the people statues of her,
declaring that they might ask of them whatever they liked,
as long as they were obedient
10 [078/18] Athenja
VMBE BY THA WLA PRESTRUM INEN GODA HROP TO WÉSANDE
STÀLDON HJA THÉR FALSKA DROCHTEN LIKANDA ÀND VNTUCHTIGA BILDA
[O-S p.109]
om bij de vuile priesteren in een goeden
in order to remain in good odour with the nasty priests,
they placed there likenesses of false gods and unchaste statues
11 [100/18] Formlere
HJARA GÁST SLÁVTH HIM SELVA IMMER OF
VMBE SKÉNE BYLDA TO MÁKJANDE THÉR Y ÀFTERNÉI ANBID
[O-S p.139]
hun geest slooft zich altijd af
om schoone beelden te maken, die zij [hij] naderhand
their spirit [always] labours [:'slaves off itself']
to create beautiful statues [:'shining' images], which
12 [102/29] Formlere
THÀT SINA THÀNK.BYLDA WIXLE THA HWILER SÉID IK THÀNK
[O-S p.141]
dat zijne denkbeelden veranderen [:wisselen], terwijl hij zegt: ik denk
that his thoughts [:ideas, 'think-images'] change even while he says, I think
13 [103/27] Trast
TÁL ÀND ANDWARDE ORA FÁMNA TO.N FÁRBYLD
[O-S p.143]
Taal en antwoord aan andere maagden tot een voorbeeld
Speech and answer to other maidens as an example
14 [114/06] Frethorik - 3x
FRYA HÉD.VS LÉTEN. HJRA WÁK.FÁMKES HÉDE HJU ABEFTA HALDEN.
HWAND DROCHTEN.LIKANDA BYLDA WÉRON BINNA VSA LÁND.PÀLA FVNDEN.
IK BRONDE FON NYS.GÍR. VMBE THI BYLDA TO BISJAN [...]
JEF HJU MI ÀRGE TID ÀND THA BYLDA RÉIS WISA WILDE
[O-S p.157]
Frya had ons verlaten; zij had hare waakmeisjes terug gehouden;
want gedrochtelijke (afgods)beelden waren binnen onze landpalen gevonden.
Ik brande van nieuwsgierigheid om die beelden te zien. [...]
of zij mij de
Frya had
because monstrous idolatrous images had been found within our landmarks [:-poles].
I burnt with curiosity [:'newsgreed'] to see those images. [...]
if she would show me the bad times and the images.
15 [114/27] Frethorik - 2x
THA WALDA THÉR BYLDA IN WÉRON [...]
THA WALDA MITHA BYLDUM DRÉVON NÉI SÉ
[O-S p.159]
De wouden, daar beelden in waren, [...]
de wouden met de beelden dreven naar zee
The woods in which the images were, [...]
the forests with the images drifted out to sea
16 [132/21] the Joniers - 2x
HWERSA IMMAN EN BYLD MÁKATH ÀFTER ÉNNEN VRSTURVEN ÀND THET LIKT
SÁ LÁWATH HJA THÀT THENE GÁST THES VRSTURVENE THÉR INNE FÁRATH.
THÉRVR HÀVATH HJA ALLE BYLDA VRBURGEN.
FON FRYA. FÀSTA. MÉDÉA. THJANJA. HELLÉNJA ÀND FÉLO OTHERA
[O-S p.181]
Wanneer iemand een beeld maakt naar een afgestorvene en het gelijkt,
dan gelooven zij, dat de geest des overledene daarin vaart.
Daarom hebben zij alle beelden verborgen
van Frya, Fâsta, Medea, Thiania [:Diana], Hellenia en vele andere.
When they make a statue of a dead person [and it resembles]
they believe that the spirit of the departed enters into it;
therefore they have hidden their statues
of Frya, Fâsta, Medea, Thiania [:Diana], Hellenia, and many others.
17 [139/04] false priests of the Yes-us/ Buda cult - 2x
INNA HOLA THÉRA BERGA GVNGON HJA HÉMA.
THACH THÉRIN HÉDON HJA HJARA SKÀT BROCHT.
THÉR BINNA MÁKADON HJA BYLDON ÀFTER JES.US.
THESSA BYLDON JÁVON HJA AN THA VNÀRG THÀNKANDA LJUDA.
TO LONGA LERSTA SÉIDON HJA THÀT JES.US EN DROCHTEN WÉRE.
THÀT.I THÀT SELVA AN HJAM BILÉDEN HÉDE.
ÀND THÀT ALLE THÉR AN HIM. ÀND AN SINA LÉRA LÁWA WILDE
NÉIMELS IN SIN KÉNINGKRIK KVMA SKOLDE.
HWÉR FRÜ IS ÀND NOCHTA SEND
[O-S p.189]
Zij gingen in de holen der bergen wonen,
doch hierin hadden zij hunne schatten gebracht,
daar binnen maakten zij beelden van
Deze beelden gaven ze aan de onergdenkende lieden;
ten langen laatste zeiden zij dat
dat hij zelf dit aan hun had beleden,
en dat allen die aan hem en zijne leer gelooven wilden,
hiernamaals in zijn koningrijk zouden komen,
waar vreugde is en genietingen zijn.
They went to live in caves in the mountains,
but in them they had hid all their treasures,
and they made in them images of
They gave these statues to simple [:'unbadthinking'] people,
and at last they said that
that he had declared this himself to them,
and that all those who followed his doctrine
should enter his kingdom hereafter,
where all was joy and happiness.
18 [164/14] Pangab
IN THET LOND SIND OLLE PRESTERA TJOK ÀND RIK.
IN HJARA CHÀRKA WERTHAT OLLERLÉJA DROCHTENLIKA BYLDON FVNDEN.
THÉR VNDER SIND FÉLO GOLDEN MANK
[O-S p.223]
In dit land zijn alle priesters dik en rijk.
In hunne kerken worden allerlei gedrochtelijke beelden gevonden,
daaronder zijn vele van goud.
In this country [:land] all the priests are fat and rich.
In their churches there are all kinds of monstrous ['idol-like'] images,
many of them of gold.
19 [164/32] Pangab
THA ÍRA NE SIND NÉNE ÍRA MÁR GODA MINSKA
THER NÉNA BYLDON TOLÉTA NACH ONBIDDA.
ÁK WILLATH SE NÉNA CHÀRKA NACH PRESTAR DOGA.
[O-S p.223]
De Yren zijn geen wilden, maar goede menschen,
die geen beelden toelaten noch aanbidden:
ook willen ze geen kerken noch priesteren dulden [:gedogen]
The Yren are not savages, but good people,
who neither pray to nor tolerate images;
neither will they
20 [191/05] Rika's letter - 3x
THÁ THA KÀNINGGAR ET ALSA WÍD BROCHT HÉDE
THÀT HJA FÉDERUM THÉRA FOLKAR HÉTE THÁ GVNGON HJA TO
ÀND LÉTON BYLDON ÀFTER HJARA DÁNTNE MÁKJA
THISSA BYLDON LÉTON HJA INNA THA CHERKA STALLA NÉST THA BYLDON THÉRA DROCHTNE
ÀND THI JENA THAM THÉR NAVT FAR BUGJA NILDE
WARTH OM BROCHT JEFTHA AN KÉDNE DÉN
[O-S p.231]
Toen de koningen het zoo ver gebracht hadden,
dat zij vaderen [:voeders] der volken heetten, gingen zij heen
en lieten beelden naar hunne gedaante maken;
deze beelden lieten zij in de kerken stellen naast de beelden der afgoden,
en degene die daar niet voor buigen wilde,
werd omgebracht of in ketenen gedaan.
When the kings had accomplished
that they should be called fathers [:feeders] of the people,
they had statues of themselves made,
and erected [these statues] in the churches beside the statues of the idols,
and those who would not bow down to them
were either killed or put in chains.
21 [205/07] Askar
EN GOLDEN SKILD HWÉRVPPA ÁSKAR HIS DÁNTE KUNSTA LIK WAS UT EBYLD
[O-S p.247]
een gouden schild, waarop Askars gedaante kunstig was afgebeeld
a golden shield on which Askar' s portrait was artistically represented
22 [205/15] Askar
KIRT AFTER THÀT ÁSKAR MITH FRÉTHO.GUNSTA BOSTIGJATH WAS
WÀRTH THÉR TO STÁVEREN ÉNE SCHERKE BVWED.
INNA THJU SCHERKE WRDON TJODA DROCHTEN LÍKANDA BYLDON STALTH.
MITH GOLD TRVCH WROCHTNE KLÁTHAR.
ÁK IS ER BIWÉRATH HAT ÁSKAR THÉR NACHTIS ÀND VNTÍDIS
MITH FRÉTHO.GUNSTA FÁR NITHER BUWGADE
[O-S p.247]
Kort nadat Askar met Frethogunsta getrouwd was,
werd er te Staveren eene kerk gebouwd;
in de kerk werden booze gedrochtelijke beelden gesteld,
met goud doorwevene kleederen.
Ook is er beweerd dat Askar bij nacht en bij ontijde
met Frethogunsta zich daar voor nederboog.
Soon after Askar had married Frethogunsta,
a church was built at Staveren.
In the church were placed monstrous ['idol-like'] images,
bedecked with goldwoven dresses.
It is also said that Askar, by night, and at unseasonable times,
kneeled to them with Frethogunsta
===
Posted 02 October 2013 - 08:45 PM
Fasten your seatbelts.
The Puzzler, on 02 October 2013 - 03:36 PM, said:
Yes, it seems likely that the oldfrisian (and dutch-german) BILD / BYLD (image, statue) is somehow related to late Old English byldan (to construct a house):
etymonline.com/ build (verb):
late Old English byldan "construct a house," verb form of bold "house," [...] (cf. Old Saxon bodl, Old Frisian bodel "building, house") [...]
The english word "sin" (dutch: zonde / german: sünde) may be related indirectly to the oldfrisian (and dutch-german) SINNE (zin, sinn), but more direct meanings are various other:
(from german-english dictionary:)
sinn = sense, meaning, point, appreciation, inclination
sinnbild = symbol
sinnen (verb) = to brood, ponder, reflect, devise, plot
sinnlich = sexual, carnal, sensual, sensuous, sensory
sinnlos = senseless, meaningless
etc.
In german-dutch dictionary:
sinn = zin, zintuig, geest, aard, gevoel, begrip, betekenis, gedachte
(= sense, spirit, nature, feeling, understanding, meaning, thought)
Apart from the three fragments that I already gave with varieties of SINNEBYLD, there are four other fragments with SINN:
[021/26] warlaws
EK FRYA.S MOT.A LÉTHA JEFTHA FÍANDA WÉRA.
MITH ALDULKERA WÀPNE AS.ER FORSINNA BIKVMA ÀND HÁNDTÉRA MÉI.
[O-S p.33]
Elke Fries moet de beleedigers of vijanden afweren,
met al zulke wapenen, als hij verzinnen, bekomen en hanteren mag.
Every Frisian must resist the assailants [or enemies]
with such weapons as he can procure, invent [think up, dream up], and use.
[022/33] warlaws
THÉRA THAM STRIDA MITHA WÀPNE AN HJARA HANDA
NE KUNNATH NAVT FORSINNA ÀND WIS BILÍWA.
HERVMBE NE FOCHTETH NÉNE KÉNING WÀPNE TO HANTERA AN THA STRID.
SIN WISDOM MOT SIN WÀPEN WÉSA
ÀND THJU LJAFTE SINRA KÀMPONA MOT SIN SKÍLD WÉSA.
[O-S p.35]
Die welke strijden met de wapenen in hunne handen,
kunnen niets verzinnen en wijs blijven,
daarom voegt het geen koning wapenen te hanteren in den strijd.
Zijne wijsheid moet zijn wapen wezen
en de liefde zijner krijgslieden moet zijn schild wezen.
Those who fight witharms [weapons in their hands]
are not men of counsel [can not think up/ dream up and stay wise],
therefore no king must bear arms [in battle].
His wisdom must be his weapon,
and the love of his warriors his shield.
[103/20] other formlere
HÉDE WR.ALDA VS NÉNE SINNA JÉVEN SA NE SKOLDE WY NARNE OF NÉTA
[O-S p.143]
Had Wralda ons geene zintuigen [:zinnen] gegeven, zoo zouden wij nergens van weten
If Wr-alda had given us noorgans [senses], we should have known nothing
[126/27] Friso
AS HJU T.US KÉM WARTH HJU WAN.SINNICH.
[O-S p.173]
Toen zij thuis kwam werd zij waanzinnig
When she came home shewas out of her mind [became delusional, 'vainsensed']
###
Now look at the oldschool etymology of "symbol":
etymonline.com/symbol:
[...] from Greek symbolon "token, watchword" [...], literally "that which is thrown or cast together," from syn- "together" [...] + bole "a throwing, a casting, the stroke of a missile, bolt, beam," from bol-, nominative stem of ballein "to throw"
How much sense does this make!?
None at all.
But the oldfrisian/ 'old-NW-european' etymology does:
SIN, SINNE, SINNA = sense, meaning, mind, etc.
BYLD, BOLD, BODEL = image, building, etc.
symbol = meaning-image, mind-building
The Puzzler, on 02 October 2013 - 03:36 PM, said:
The word byld in all forms seems to refer to BUILD/construct which of course, all statues etc are - constructs.
Yes, it seems likely that the oldfrisian (and dutch-german) BILD / BYLD (image, statue) is somehow related to late Old English byldan (to construct a house):
etymonline.com/ build (verb):
late Old English byldan "construct a house," verb form of bold "house," [...] (cf. Old Saxon bodl, Old Frisian bodel "building, house") [...]
Quote
A SINNEBYLD would equate to a sinful/bad-construct ie; (in context) bad statue or monstrous idol.
The english word "sin" (dutch: zonde / german: sünde) may be related indirectly to the oldfrisian (and dutch-german) SINNE (zin, sinn), but more direct meanings are various other:
(from german-english dictionary:)
sinn = sense, meaning, point, appreciation, inclination
sinnbild = symbol
sinnen (verb) = to brood, ponder, reflect, devise, plot
sinnlich = sexual, carnal, sensual, sensuous, sensory
sinnlos = senseless, meaningless
etc.
In german-dutch dictionary:
sinn = zin, zintuig, geest, aard, gevoel, begrip, betekenis, gedachte
(= sense, spirit, nature, feeling, understanding, meaning, thought)
Apart from the three fragments that I already gave with varieties of SINNEBYLD, there are four other fragments with SINN:
[021/26] warlaws
EK FRYA.S MOT.A LÉTHA JEFTHA FÍANDA WÉRA.
MITH ALDULKERA WÀPNE AS.ER FORSINNA BIKVMA ÀND HÁNDTÉRA MÉI.
[O-S p.33]
Elke Fries moet de beleedigers of vijanden afweren,
met al zulke wapenen, als hij verzinnen, bekomen en hanteren mag.
Every Frisian must resist the assailants [or enemies]
with such weapons as he can procure, invent [think up, dream up], and use.
[022/33] warlaws
THÉRA THAM STRIDA MITHA WÀPNE AN HJARA HANDA
NE KUNNATH NAVT FORSINNA ÀND WIS BILÍWA.
HERVMBE NE FOCHTETH NÉNE KÉNING WÀPNE TO HANTERA AN THA STRID.
SIN WISDOM MOT SIN WÀPEN WÉSA
ÀND THJU LJAFTE SINRA KÀMPONA MOT SIN SKÍLD WÉSA.
[O-S p.35]
Die welke strijden met de wapenen in hunne handen,
kunnen niets verzinnen en wijs blijven,
daarom voegt het geen koning wapenen te hanteren in den strijd.
Zijne wijsheid moet zijn wapen wezen
en de liefde zijner krijgslieden moet zijn schild wezen.
Those who fight with
therefore no king must bear arms [in battle].
His wisdom must be his weapon,
and the love of his warriors his shield.
[103/20] other formlere
HÉDE WR.ALDA VS NÉNE SINNA JÉVEN SA NE SKOLDE WY NARNE OF NÉTA
[O-S p.143]
Had Wralda ons geene zintuigen [:zinnen] gegeven, zoo zouden wij nergens van weten
If Wr-alda had given us no
[126/27] Friso
AS HJU T.US KÉM WARTH HJU WAN.SINNICH.
[O-S p.173]
Toen zij thuis kwam werd zij waanzinnig
When she came home she
###
Now look at the oldschool etymology of "symbol":
etymonline.com/symbol:
[...] from Greek symbolon "token, watchword" [...], literally "that which is thrown or cast together," from syn- "together" [...] + bole "a throwing, a casting, the stroke of a missile, bolt, beam," from bol-, nominative stem of ballein "to throw"
How much sense does this make!?
None at all.
But the oldfrisian/ 'old-NW-european' etymology does:
SIN, SINNE, SINNA = sense, meaning, mind, etc.
BYLD, BOLD, BODEL = image, building, etc.
symbol = meaning-image, mind-building
===
Posted 03 October 2013 - 01:18 PM
Recap of all OLB-words and -fragments (I found some more) with SIN (sense, meaning, understanding, etc.) and some new translations.
(Note: the much more commonly used and same-spelled "SIN" means "his" or "her" => dutch "zijn", german "sein", not to be confused with the verb "to be".)
### Words and spelling variety
SIN (noun, singular) - 3,5,12
zin - dutch
sinn - german
sense, meaning - english
SINNA (noun, plural) - 11
zinnen, zintuigen - dutch
sinnen - german
senses - english
SINTUGA (noun, plural) - 10
zintuigen - dutch
senses - english
FORSINNA (verb) - 1,2
FORSINA - 7
verzinnen - dutch
'fore-sense', invent, think-up, dream-up - english
NAVT NE SINDE (verb, past, sing.) - 9
niet zinde - dutch
did not please, appeal (?) - english
SINNA.BYLD - 4
SINE.BYLD - 6
SINNE BILD - 8
sinnbild - german
zinnebeeld - dutch
'sense-build', symbol - english
WAN.SINNICH - 13
waanzinnig - dutch
wahnsinnig - german
'vain-sensed', delusional - english
### Fragments
1 [021/27] warlaws
WÀPNE AS.ER FORSINNA [...] MÉI
weapons as he can 'foresense' (invent)
2 [022/33] warlaws
THÉRA [...] NE KUNNATH NAVT FORSINNA
Those [...] can not 'fore-sense' (invent)
3 [032/10] Minno
ÁK IS.ER JET.EN ORA SIN AN FÀST
there is also yet another meaning attached to it
4 [032/21] Minno
THET ORA SINNA.BYLD FON WR.ALDA.S GÁST
the other (second) 'sense-build' (symbol) of Wr-alda's ghost (spirit)
5 [033/04] Minno
THÉR ORDÉLTH MÀN NÉI THA SIN
THÉR WR.ALDA.S GÁST AN VS KÉTH
There one ordeals in the sense
that Wralda's ghost (spirit) speaks to us
6 [034/18] Minerva
THAT SINE.BYLD FON FRYA.S RÉD.JÉVINGA
the 'sense-build' (symbol) of Frya's 'advise-givings' (counsels)
7 [035/09] Minerva
RENKA TO FORSINA
to 'foresense' (invent) tricks
8 [045/04] the Jol
THÀT FORMA SINNE BILD WR.ALDA.S
the first 'sense-build' (symbol) of Wr-alda
9 [055/02] Wodin
RJU FÉLO STJURAR ÀND LAND WÉRAR
THAM THISSE KÉR NAVT NE SINDE
Very many navigators and landwarriors,
whom this choice did not please (or appeal?)
10 [103/13] other formlere
THA WR.ALDA VS SKOP HETHER VS IN THRVCH SINE WISHÉD.
BRYN. SINTUGA. HÜGJA ÀND FÉLO GODA AINSKIPA LÉNAD
When Wralda created us, he granted us in-through his wisdom
brain, senses, memory and many good attributes
11 [103/20] other formlere
HÉDE WR.ALDA VS NÉNE SINNA JÉVEN
SA NE SKOLDE WY NARNE OF NÉTA
Had Wr-alda not given us senses,
we would know of nothing
12 [117/25] Frethorik - Gosa
HEL FON HAWED ÀND KLÁR FON SIN
Light (bright, enlightened) of head and clear of sense(s)
13 [126/27] Friso
AS HJU T.US KÉM WARTH HJU WAN.SINNICH.
When she came home she became 'vain-sensed' (delusional)
===
Posted 11 october, 08:23 AM
Knul, on 11 October 2013 - 02:06 AM, said:
She is not the wife of Hidde and Ocko is not their son.
Besides, in 1256 CE, there were no more Folkmothers.
Quote
Okke, my son refers to the Frisian historian Ocko Scharlensis.
That's not a fact, but your belief.
Okke/ Okko is and must have been a normal Frisian name, long before Van Scharle lived.
According to Hamconius (1620), it was also the name of the last Frisian druid (late 8th century) before christianisation (page 106b):
OCCO.
Vir ferox;
ac Pontificum Ethnicorum Frisiae ultimus.
Scripsit de Doctrina Druydum:
de successione Professorium
ejusdem Doctrinae in Aula Dei,
de sacrificijs Deorum,
& vindicando eorum culta adversus Christianos
ad Radbodum 2 Frisiae Regem;
qui tamen, Regno privatus,
à S. Adelberto ad fidem conversus est.
& Egmunde pie obijt,
ut patet ex hoc suo Epitaphio.
The (inaccurate) Dutch translation of Hettema (1844), page 341:
Occo.
Een wreet man,
ende de laetste van de Heydensche Bisschoppen van Frieslant:
heeft gheschreven van de leere der Druyden:
van het vervolch der Professoren,
derselver leere in het Hoff Godes:
van de offerhanden der Goden,
ende van haerder eerdienst te beschermen teghens de Christenen,
ende dat aen Radbodum den tweeden,
met welcken hy uyt zyn vaderlant verdreven
ende in ballinghschap ghesturven schijnt te wesen.
Suffrid., De Scriptor. Frisiae, Decad. 6, cap. 1.
As "Ukko", the name is also very well known in Finnish, and as "Uku" in Estonian.
Source: wikipedia/Ukko
