Posted 04 February 2011 - 07:11 PM
1) I have not yet recieved news from the Royal Library about the paper and ink examination.
Abramelin, on 20 July 2010 - 12:00 PM, said:
Delehaye wanted to prove that most of the history of The Netherlands between 0 and 1000 AD didn't even take place there, but more to the south, in Belgium and northern France (...)
2) In the last few weeks I have explored some of the 'Frisian' history of the early middle ages (before 1000), and came to the conclusion that at least some of alternative historian Albert Delahaye's theories must be right, which would have major consequences for Dutch traditional historiography.
In case the reader had not noticed yet, Dutch 'established history' (of the scholars) smells bad, so bad that I more-and-more understand how most people who find out some of the truth stay silent and maybe don't even want to think about it anymore, because it's so depressing.
I don't know where to start, so I'll just start with something that I consider to be an important clue to a better understanding (for whoever is interested and has a strong stomach).
The following is an improvised translation (by me, with some added notes in bold) from:
http://www.ijpelaan.nl/Archief/Kennemerland/Vroeg-Willibrord.html
"1. Willibrord's mission
The Benedictine Willibrord preached the Fresen from 690 till his death in 739. Before him others preached the Fresen. Under king Dagobert, early seventh century, there was already a church in Trajectum according to St. Victor. In Fresia, Richardus ca. 600 founded the Centula abbey, and half a century later there is the abbey of St. Bertijn in St.-Omaars. Also Eloy, bishop of Noyon and Doornik (French Tournai), in the center of the Frankish empire, preached the Fresen, like Amandus, Wilfried of York, Wigbert, Suitbert and Wulfram. These data evidently belong to French-Flandres and are ignored in [Dutch] traditionalist historiography.
Alcuinis, the first biographer of Willibrord and writer for Charles the Great, describes how Willibrord arrived in the mouths of the Renus (Scheldt) and went to Trajectum (Tournehem). Theofried of Echternach, his later biographer, litteraly says that it was in the harbor of Gravalinge (Grevelingen, French Gravelines), near Trajectum in Fresia. The two don't contradict, as classical writers said that the Renus flowed into the sea where Brittannia could be seen."
=> Renus is not Rhine, but Scheldt
=> Trajectum is not Utrecht, but Tournehem
"Willibrord himself in 728 writes in his calendar that he arrived in Francia from overseas in 690. After he became bishop of the Fresen (Flemmish) in 695, he builds a little church for St. Martinus in Traiectum (Tournehem). After twenty years Willibrord has to move for Radbod, king of the Fresen; after that he can return to the area of his mission. According to the Cartularium of Radboud, the last bishop of Trajectum, the monastery that was built near the walls of Traiectum (Tournehem) and that was ruled by archbishop Willibrord, in 722 receives all benefits of the Traiectum (Tournehem) domain and the lands of Greveningo (Grevelingen) from Karel Martel."
=> These "Fresen" lived in West-Flandres (north-west Francia).
"Willibrord dies in 739 in the monastery of Aefternacum (Eperlecques) that he had built himself. (...)
His biographies reveal that Willibrord operated in a relatively small area. According to later interpretations he worked along the coast of Denmark, deep in Germany, in the Netherlands, Belgium and the north of France.
The territorial lists of the diocese Trajectum contains hundreds of toponyms from the area of Tournehem and Eperlecques; in that of the Aefternacum abbey there's hundreds of the same area. It cannot be argued why they would include a few individual toponyms from Kennemerland, Holland or Brabant, as was always done in [Dutch] traditionalist historiography.
At excavations in Utrecht, besides Roman remains, nothing noteworthy was found from before the tenth century, and one can hardly claim that Echternach was built near the walls of Utrecht."
=> Aefternacum is not Echternach, but Eperlecques.
"If Willibrord had both his abbey and his diocese in French-Flandres, how did his story move to Echternach, Kennemerland and Utrecht?"
NOTE: improved version as well as following paragraphs, see below.
### Posted 04 February 2011 - 07:19 PM
Otharus, on 04 February 2011 - 07:11 PM, said:
... at least some of alternative historian Albert Delahaye's theories must be right, which would have major consequences for Dutch traditional historiography.
Before I continue with the translation, the following is copied from:
http://albertdelahaye.nl/index.php?english
1. Charlemagne had no links with Nijmegen
Albert Delahaye presented a set of hypotheses that were contrary to long-held ideas about the history of Nijmegen and that of the Low Countries in general.
Regarding Nijmegen, Albert Delahaye questioned the received wisdom that Charlemagne had build a palace there. This is a blatant heresy in the eyes of official Nijmegen, bearing such epithets as "Keizerstad" or "Emperor's town".
According to received tradition, Charlemagne maintained a palace in Nijmegen.
This palace was supposed to have been situated on the Valkhof hill, the highest point in modern Nijmegen, where visitors are shown its alleged ruins. Charlemagne, the emperor, again according to standard accepted history, would have sojourned at this palace on his travels through his empire.
The location of Nijmegen would have been an important symbol in support of Charlemagne and the myths that followed him, as it had been a border town at the northern frontier of the Roman Empire with a market and a garrison.
A part of the story of the palace was that Vikings came and took it for the winter in the year 880. It's not true, said Delahaye. The palace was not there. There's no trace of it. (Those ruins are from two different periods, a few centuries later.)
(...)
6. Willibrord and Bonifatius were never in The Netherlands
Willibrord, Archeveque of Tournehem, Bonifatius marter of the French
In Nijmegen Albert Delahaye started his study about Charlemagne and the "Valkhof". In that period (1946-1950) he considered only Charlemagne and he did at that time not know that most of the history of The Netherland from 250 till 1050 was displaced.
Progressing from his initial findings, Delahaye found each following year more evidence about historical displacements affecting the history of the Netherlands. A number of key facts from its history are plainly wrong. What happened according to him was this: when the sea level had sufficiently fallen, the people living in Northern France and Belgium started to migrate to the North and, and having settled first in the south of the present Netherlands, continued later further North and NorthWestwards. The places where they settled and the rivers they encountered were named after the locales and streams where they had lived before.
After the displacement of the names followed the displacement of the facts and stories that originated in the ?old? country. These facts and stories were transposed in the Middle Ages to "Holland" by historical chroniclers, commissioned by important persons, e.g. a ruler. Writer and artist were paid to produce a good looking manuscript, where facts were mixed with heroic tales, as the aim was to aggrandise the ruler.
A good example is the double displacements of St. Willibrord and St. Bonifatius who were claimed in the 13th century by Dutch historian Melis Stoke as apostles to the Netherlands and localised respectively in Utrecht and Dokkum (Friesland) Again, historically impossible as both places did not exist at the time these clerics lived.
Facts: St Willibrord, bishop of Trajectum, present day Tournehem, in 695.
(...)
Bonifatius was murdered near the river Burdina, present Bourre. The placename Dokkum is erroneously derived from Dockynchirica? Dunkirk.
What do the French say about these saints? They consider them of an entirely local character and statues of St. Willibrord and St. Bonifatius are often seen in local churches in the region of Northern France, their main mission field.
### Posted 05 February 2011 - 06:23 AM
Abramelin, on 04 February 2011 - 07:23 PM, said:
Yep, I have read a lot about Albert Delahaye's theory, and that for years.
(...)
But although those Dunkerque Transgressions took place, Delahaye has been proven wrong many times by archeological finds.
(...)
Now the only supporters left are those who think in 'conspiracries to hide the truth'...
Talking and making up ideas is rather easy, digging and sweating to find remants of thousands of years ago is not so easy.
Some of Delahayes theories may have been proven wrong, he had many. He did an incredible lot of research of the original sources and did not just copy what other 'historians' had written before. If some of his revolutionary theories were wrong that does not have to mean they all were. (Can you link to any serious research report that disproves all of his theories? No, I know you cannot.)
For now let's just focus on the Willibrord theory, that has been re-presented by IJpelaan whose version I started translating.
Can you and the other Dutch/ Flemmish/ Afrikaans readers (Jelle, Alewyn?) read the whole article already and then tell me if there's anything wrong with it?
Here's the link again:
http://www.ijpelaan.nl/Archief/Kennemerland/Vroeg-Willibrord.html
The author of this site does not qualify as a "supporter who thinks in 'conspiracries to hide the truth'" and who is just "talking and making up ideas". (FYI: he believes OLB is a hoax.)
### Posted 05 February 2011 - 02:05 PM
Translation "2. Eperlecques and Echternach" => improved version below
### Posted 05 February 2011 - 06:34 PM
Abramelin, on 05 February 2011 - 04:32 PM, said:
You better start with saying why you want to talk about Delahaye's theories, in connection with the OLB that is.
Otharus, on 04 February 2011 - 07:11 PM, said:
In the last few weeks I have explored some of the 'Frisian' history of the early middle ages (before 1000), and came to the conclusion that at least some of alternative historian Albert Delahaye's theories must be right, which would have major consequences for Dutch traditional historiography.
Like you said before, to understand OLB -and its reception- it is vital to understand a bit of the Dutch/ Frisian tradition of (pseudo-) historiography.
Lifting a tip of the veil:
Forana (OLB) ~ Veurne (North Francia) ~ Vronen (West Frisia)
Texland (OLB) ~ Texandrie (North Francia) ~ Texel (West Frisia)
Etcetera. More about this later.
For now I will focus on the Willibrord/ Trajectum story.
Once that is sorted out, we can make a big step forward.
### Posted 06 February 2011 - 02:42 AM
Abramelin, on 05 February 2011 - 04:32 PM, said:
http://www.ijpelaan.nl/Archief/Kennemerland/Tegen-Bijsterveld.html#albe
I wonder why you posted this link, because it gives overwhelming evidence that Delahaye is RIGHT.
His theory was not only based on the Duinkerke Transgressions, but (also) on thorough research of original sources. Some details of his theory may have been wrong, I have not read all of it, but enough of it is right (at least about Betuwe, Dorestad, Nijmegen, Utrecht, Dokkum, Almere), which would already have immense consequences for traditional dutch historiography.
[...]
As for BUDA, I showed that Godfrey Higgins said it means wisdom (which may still be true in other traditions). You showed that elsewhere in the OLB it means something like sack. Fair enough but still BUDA is not an example of a ridiculous etymology that would prove OLB is a hoax. People in 600 BC will also have had a sense of imagination and homor.
### Posted 06 February 2011 - 10:12 AM
Demasking the Dutch 'Willibrord myth' is relevant because it shows how and why the history of 8th century Frisia in West Flandres/ North France was relocated to 12th century Westfriesland/ Holland/ Utrecht.
(After I have translated and presented the proof I will explain this further.)
Translation "3. 1156: Echternach claims churches ..." => improved version below
### Posted 07 February 2011 - 07:21 AM
translation: "4. Willibrord is relocated to Holland" => improved version below
- - - - - -
This is what Wikipedia says about bishop Willibrord of Trajectum:
"Saint Willibrord (c. 658 – November 7, 739) was a Northumbrian missionary, known as the "Apostle to the Frisians" in the modern Netherlands. He became the first Bishop of Utrecht and died at Echternach, Luxembourg."
Is there anyone who, after having read the 4 parts of my translation, still believes the myth that is re-presented by Wikipedia?
1) Willibrord's Trajectum is Tournehem, not Utrecht.
2) Willibrord's Aefternacum is Eperlecques, not Echternach.
3) Willibrord's Fresen lived in West Flandres, not in Holland.
### Posted 08 February 2011 - 02:11 AM
Abramelin, on 08 February 2011 - 12:42 AM, said:
Linguistically speaking, that is nonsense.
That is a firm statement.
Please explain.
Which part of IJpelaan's article on Willibrord do you disagree with?
Does his reasoning have any flaw?
Or is there any part that you don't understand?.
(You can also refer to the original untranslated version if that's easier.)
### Posted 08 February 2011 - 02:27 AM
Otharus, on 07 February 2011 - 07:21 AM, said:
1) Willibrord's Trajectum is Tournehem, not Utrecht.
2) Willibrord's Aefternacum is Eperlecques, not Echternach.
3) Willibrord's Fresen lived in West Flandres, not in Holland.
Let me rephrase this:
In the original texts about Willibrord, his abbey, diocese and monastery (from before Echternach's claims):
1) Trajectum referred to what is now Tournehem-sur-la-Hem, not to Utrecht.
2) Aefternacum referred to what is now Éperlecques, not to Echternach.
3) Fresen refer to people who lived in what is now West Flandres and the North-West of France, not in Holland, Westfriesland, Kennemerland or Utrecht.
### Posted 08 February 2011 - 09:28 AM
Otharus, on 06 February 2011 - 10:12 AM, said:
Demasking the Dutch 'Willibrord myth' is relevant because it shows how and why the history of 8th century Frisia in West Flandres/ North France was relocated to 12th century Westfriesland/ Kennemerland/ Holland/ Utrecht.
Understanding this is vital for anyone who wants to explore and interpret the (reception of the) Oera Linda-book and/or old-Frisian (pseudo-) historiography.
Therefore, once more - complete and improved - my improvised translation (with notes between [...]) of the most relevant parts of:
http://www.ijpelaan.nl/Archief/Kennemerland/Vroeg-Willibrord.html
(see separate post)
### Posted 08 February 2011 - 09:36 AM
Abramelin, on 08 February 2011 - 02:41 AM, said:
What do you know of the Alans in the Netherlands?? According to the huge poem written by Willem van Haren (1741, based on older Frisian myths), the land that was named "Friesland" (after Friso) was formerly called "Land der Alanen" ('Land of the Alans'). Again according to that poem, they lived near the 'northern branch of the Rhine' (= the IJssel river).
http://www.gedevasen.dk/heruls.pdf
That PDF-file seems very interesting. Thanks!
I'll read it but it may take a while and I still would like to settle the Willibrord dossier first.
### Posted 09 February 2011 - 06:12 AM
Otharus, on 08 February 2011 - 09:28 AM, said:
Understanding this is vital for anyone who wants to explore and interpret the (reception of the) Oera Linda-book and/or old-Frisian (pseudo-) historiography.
When one accepts that the "Friesland" of the second half of the first Millennium has to be placed in the North-West of France, the Frisian 'legends' of that time (that until today are considered to be purely fiction by established historic science) start to make much more sense.
Willibrord in "Chronyk van Friesland" by Ocko van Scharle, Johan Vlytarp and Andreas Cornelisz. van Staveren (1742 edition).
(Transliteration, strikethroughs and comments between [...] by me. An improvised translation may follow, if the forum is interested.)
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
[p.40]
~ Als nu Radbodus Anno 678. dus weder in zyn Ryk gestelt en ontfangen was/ heeft hy zyn Onderzaten zeer streng en tyrannelyk (niet min als den Omunt) geregeerd/ gantschelyk een ander aart als zyn Vader gehad hadde/ aantrekkende/ zo dat hy in den eersten aanvang niet lieftallig onder zyn Volk was/ hoewel het met der tyd wat begon te beteren. Hy stelde zyn Hof en Konings Stoel binnen Stavoren [?]/ want dat een zeer schone en plaisante Stad te dier tyd was/ ende vermeerderde zyn Ryk en Landpalen (met inneminge der naastleggende Landen en Steden) zeer/ hy nam Utregt [Traiectum] in/ en verjoeg daar alle de Priesters en gelovige Leeraars uit/ distrueerde het Bedehuis van St. Thomas, ende nam het Slot Wiltenburg [Viltaburg] in/ daar hy zyn Volk en Garnizoen op leide/ ende bragt alzo tot Nimmegen [Noyon] toe/ het gehele Land onder zyn gewelt/ zo dat ook daar in Bentumer-steen aan die Poort gehouwen wierde/ 't welk ook nog op den huidigen dag daar aanstaat: Hic finitur regnum Stavriae. Hier eindigt het Ryk van Stavoren. En na deze overwinninge zo is Radbodus wederom na zyne Landen van Friesland getrokken/ en heeft daar na een schoon Lusthuis op den Berg van het Rode Clif weder laten zetten en bouwen.
~ Deze tyd is Wigbertus, een zeer Godtvrezend Man uit Engeland in Friesland gekomen/ om aldaar den Koning/ en zyn Onderzaten het gelove Christi te Leeren en te Prediken; dog vermits hy alleen was/ en weinig konde uitregten/ reisde hy twee Jaren na dier tyd weder over in Engeland/ en zeide aldaar/ dat in Friesland eenen groten bouw/ maar weinig Arbeidsluiden in den Wyngaart des Heeren waren. Als dit Willebrordus nu hoorde/ is door dien zeer beweegt geworden om derwaarts te reizen. Want hy uit de Engelsche Friezen/ of Nederzassen/ die voortyds Engeland ingenomen/ en haar residentie aldaar hadden/ geboren was.
[p.41]
~ Als hy nu gantschelyk van zins was om aldaar te trekken/ kwamen zeer veel Godtvrezende/ en goedwillige Mannen/ om in dezen zyn Gezellen te wezen. Onder welken Swygbertus, Willibaldus, Lebuinus, Winibaldus, Werendfridus, Marcellius, Accha, Wygbertus, en Adelbertus des Konings Zoon van Yrland/ welke alle de voornaamste van alle deze Godtvrezende Mannen waren.
~ Aldus zo is Willebrordus met zyn Gezellen Anno 690. na Betavien [Bethune] gezeilt/ en is ontrent den uitgang des Ryns [Scheldt] aangekomen/ en voort op na het Kasteel van Wiltenburg gevaren/ daar Radbodus, de Koning van Friesland/ als doen tegenwoordig was/ daar begonnen te Leeren/ en te Prediken het Woord Godts den ongelovigen Volken. En zy reisden voort het gehele Land door/ en konden zeer wel den volke of Friezen in haar eigen Tale/ en Sprake het Woord Godts verkondigen en leeren/ vermits zy Engelschen/ uit den zelvigen Friezen (als vooren gehoort is) herkomstig/ en gesproten waren. Dog ziende dat ze/ vermits de wreedheid des Konings/ en hardnekkigheid des volks/ zeer weinig uitregteden/ zyn ze ten laatsten gelykelyk te zamen weder weg gereisd; en Willebrordus trok na Pippyn van Herstal/ de Hertog van Braband/ daar hy lieffelyk en zeer wel onthaalt/ en ontfangen wierde.
~ Anno 693. trok Hertog Pippyn voorsz./ door bevel van den Koning van Vrankryk/ met een zeer groot/ en overmagtig Krygsheir na Friesland/ bestreed en verwon Radbodum den Friezen Koning/ en verdreef hem gehelyk uit Utregt [Traiectum]/ vervolgde en benauwde hem ook zo zeer/ dat hy uit noot aannam en beloofde Christen te worden/ na welken de Hertog Friesland weder verliet/ en vertrok na Braband [?] weder toe/ en zond Willebrordum weder na Friesland om te Leeren/ en te Prediken met veel van zyn Gezellen; maar de Koning/ en zyn Onderzaten waren zo in die Afgoderye versteend/ dat ze weinig met Prediken uitregteden/ zo dat Willebrordus, door dien eens wederom na Braband ging vertrekken.
~ Als Willebrordus nu dus weg was/ verspreiden zyne Discipulen haar door het Land/ kwamen ten laatsten op het Eiland daar Radbodus dier tyd was/ het welk genoemt word Ameland [?], hoewel de Koning het by den zynen Foste-land hiete/ welke zonderlinge namen nogtans na zyn meninge een aanwyzinge/ en beduidenisse hadde. Want Foste-land een liefhebbende Land of lieflyk Land hiete/ als Ameland van gelyken ook dede. Zy bekeerden hier maar drie Personen/ en wierpen den Afgodt Foste ter neder/ door welken de Koning zo zeer vertoornt/ en vergramt [p.42] wierde/ dat hy daarom Wygbert liet dooden/ en verdreef de andere alle van het voorsz. Eiland.
### Posted 09 February 2011 - 05:03 PM
Radio Netherlands Worldwide:
Prehistoric grave found in Alkmaar
Published on 9 August 2010 - 2:17pm
Archaeologists digging in the Paardenmarkt (Horse market) square in the centre of the Dutch town of Alkmaar have discovered a prehistoric grave.
The remains show a person buried in the crouched position, which is typical of the Iron Age. The grave was found under a layer of sand found earlier in Alkmaar and known to date from the same period, between 700 BC and the beginning of the Christian era.
The dig in the centre of town is now in its final phase.
Earlier, archaeologists found a collective grave dating from 1573 and containing 15 skeletons and several musket balls and traces of shot. The siege of Alkmaar by the Spanish and the subsequent relief by William of Orange took place between August and October 1573. Other discoveries include a monastery graveyard and the remains of an historic street plan.
The dig is due to end later this month, after which the square will be subject to a major redesign.
http://www.rnw.nl/english/bulletin/prehistoric-grave-found-alkmaar
### Posted 10 February 2011 - 07:28 AM
Abramelin, on 09 February 2011 - 10:17 PM, said:
So I still wonder why a Willem van Haren (1741) said that the original name of Friesland was the "Land of the Alans" (or, in his Dutch, 'Land der Alanen').
I guess he will have had it from Tractatus Alvini (Thet Freske Riim) or Gesta Frisiorum, both from the 15th century.
Unfortunately, I cannot find any of them online.
### Posted 11 February 2011 - 02:36 AM
Abramelin, on 10 February 2011 - 06:50 PM, said:
I did find the "Thet Freske Riim" ("The Frisian Rhyme"), online:
Thet Freske Riim
The language used in that poem resembles the OLB language a lot, but from what I understood after a quick scroll, it's about Biblical things.
----
But I think you and Alewyn should read that poem by Willem van Haren.
Thanks a lot.
I started reading parts of "Friso" by van Haren and will read all now.
Did you read the "Voorreden" too?
De overeenkomsten van dit Gedicht met de Chronyken zyn deze:
1. Dat Friso uit Indië is geboortig geweest:
2. Van Koninklyken Staat:
3. Verdreeven door den Verrader Agrammes:
4. In zyne eerste jeugd:
5. Dat Hy, uit Indië, door Asie, de Middelandsche Zee, en den Straat van Hercules gevlugt, den Vliestroom is ingezeild: Immers volgens Furmerius:
6. Dat Friesland haren naam van dezen Friso heeft ontvangen, en behouden:
7. Ten tyde van Alexander den Groten:
8. Dat Friso een Prins is geweest van uitmuntende hoedanigheden:
9. En den Persiaanschen Gods-dienst toegedaan
I will also have a good look at the Riim (Tractatus Alvini = Alewijn's Treat LOL).
Does anyone know if there's a translation (from Latin) of Rerum Frisicarum Historia (1616) by Ubbo Emmius? That should be interesting too.
### Posted 11 February 2011 - 02:45 AM
Otharus, on 04 February 2011 - 07:11 PM, said:
I have not yet recieved news from the Royal Library about the paper and ink examination.
The deadline for the article has moved one month forward, so I expect news about it by the end of February.
### Posted 11 February 2011 - 03:02 AM
Otharus, on 08 February 2011 - 09:28 AM, said:
Understanding this is vital for anyone who wants to explore and interpret the (reception of the) Oera Linda-book and/or old-Frisian (pseudo-) historiography.
Dutch-Frisian pseudo-history demasked part 2
Bonifacius (675-754) was not murdered in Dokkum but in Dunkirk (Dockynchirica).
From Cronyk van Friesland by Ocko Scarlensis etc. (1742 ed.)
[p.53]
~ Anno 752. wierde Bonifacius de Bisschop van Utregt [Traiectum] met een groten yver ontstoken om 't Christen gelove in de Landen van [Noord-Frans] Friesland te verbreiden/ is derhalven met een-en-vyfteig Medehelpers derwaarts getrokken/ dog vermits des Konings hardigheid en hebben ze niet veel gevorderd/ komende daarom in een Stedeken aan de Lauwerts gelegen/ geheten Dockum [Dockynchirica => Duinkerke], dat van zyn Broeder Gondebolt tot een stad gemaakt was/ omtrent daar het Slot Dockenburg te voren gelegen hadde/ daar ze begonden/ en ook in de naastleggende Plaatzen/ zeer yverig het Woord Godts uit te roepen/ en de Afgoden om te werpen/ waar door zy de wreedheid des Volks zo verwekten/ dat ze met magt en grote razernye toeliepen/ en sloegen den Heiligen Bonifacius daar dood met al zyne Medegezellen/ op den 15 Juny in 't voorschreven Jaar (...)
Improvised translation:
In the year 752, bishop Bonifacius of Traiectum was very motivated to spread the Christ-belief in the lands of Frisia, went there with 51 helpers, but because of the hardness of the king (Radboud) they had no success. When they came to Dockynchirica, that his brother Gondebolt had made into a town, where the house of Dockenburg used to be, there and in the neighboring villages they started shouting the word of God and throwing over Idols, waking up the cruelty of the people, that came to them enraged and slain holy Bonifacius and all his helpers to death on the 15th of June in the aforementioned year.
### Posted 11 February 2011 - 02:17 PM
Abramelin, on 11 February 2011 - 03:33 AM, said:
No, I did not read that poem, but from what you posted , I gather it is the same poem Van Haren published.
It's not a poem, it's Van Haren's introduction to his poem "Friso".
### Posted 11 February 2011 - 04:00 PM
Thanks for letting Abe and me know that our work is still being read and appreciated.
Abramelin, on 10 February 2011 - 06:50 PM, said:
I did find the "Thet Freske Riim" ("The Frisian Rhyme"), online:
Thet Freske Riim
The language used in that poem resembles the OLB language a lot, but from what I understood after a quick scroll, it's about Biblical things.
I read the whole "Freske Riim" and find it most interesting both because of its language as well as how it gives insight in how people thought (or were being brainwashed by religious propaganda).
[Note to Abramelin: The Alanen are not mentioned indeed.]
One thing I find very fascinating is, that King Radboud (that we know as the Frisian King) is not mentioned by name, but referred to as the "Nordska Koning" (Nordic King) and as the "Koning van Danmerken" (Danish King).
Typical for the idiotic mentality of dutch academic historians is the following.
"ALVINUS (Magister) was head of the Latin school in Sneek ca. 1400, and secretary of town respectively. He was a learned man, knew of Roman law and church history. He wrote about the history of the Frisians of the first times till about 800; the original Latin Tractatus is lost. Of that we only have two translations, a Frisian, Thet Freske Riim, that is only partly saved, and a Hollandic, partly poetic, partly prose, that is known as Magistri Alvini Tractatus. All this hardly has any historic value."
That is because they don't want to accept that "Fresia" of the first Millennium was nowhere in nowaday the Netherlands, but in Belgium and France!
Original in Dutch:
"ALVINUS (Magister) was omstreeks 1400 rector der latijnsche school te Sneek en vervolgens secretaris van die stad. Hij was een geleerd man, ervaren in romeinsch recht en kerkgeschiedenis. Hij heeft de geschiedenis der Friezen beschreven van den eersten tijd af tot ongeveer 800; de oorspronkelijke latijnsche Tractatus is verloren. Daarvan bezitten wij twee vertalingen, een friesche, Thet Freske riim, dat slechts gedeeltelijk bewaard is, en een hollandsche, deels in verzen, deels in proza, die als Magistri Alvini tractatus bekend staat. Historische waarde heeft dat alles zeer weinig."
Source: Nieuw Nederlandsch biografisch woordenboek. Deel 6
redactie P.C. Molhuysen en P.J. Blok (dnbl 2008)
http://www.dbnl.org/tekst/molh003nieu06_01/molh003nieu06_01.pdf
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
In relation to the 'historical displacement' of (French-Flemmish) Fresia to (Dutch) Friesland, the following is most interesting in my opinion.
[First some translated parts (getting tired of it too), then the original text in Dutch.]
Notes by E. Epkema to "Thet Freske Riim" (page 56-57)
"(...) ALVINUS (...) would have changed Frisian poetry into 'Netherdutch' poetry (...)
This Freske Riim cannot be the work of from ALVINUS, because then it would have to be Belgian, that is 'Netherdutch', poetry; which they are not, they are Old-Frisian or rather Frisian, written in the common language of the time. (...)"
Original text in Dutch
"E. EPKEMA OP THET FRESKE RIIM
~ Vs.1. Ik sculde sega. Wie is die ik? Is het Alvinus? Of een ander, die van zijn werk een uittreksel heeft gemaakt? SUFFRIDUS PETRI, de Scriptor. Fris., pag.67, seqq., geeft het, zoo het schijnt, op voor werk van ALVINUS zelven. "M. ALVINUS," zegt hij, "eenigen tijd lang Rector der latijnsche school te Sneek, vervolgens Secretaris dier stad, schreef een tractaat of kort begrip der Friesche geschiedenis, van de wieg en bakermat van dat volk tot op KAREL den grooten." Vervolgens zegt hij, pag.69, dat ALVINUS, volgens deszelfs eigene opgave, Friesche verzen of rijmen in Nederduitsche verzen zoude hebben overgegoten; - dat hij in deze rijmen zeer geloofwaardige Schrijvers zoude hebben gevolgd, als MOZES, JOSEPHUS, MEGASTHENES, en PATROCLES; - dat de exemplaren van dit gedicht, waarvan hij onderscheidene gezien had, in eenige weinige dingen verschilden; - pag.72, dat het exemplaar, hem bezorgd door HUBERTUS SCHOTUS, iets nauwkeuriger was, dan dat, wat in het HS. van het klooster te Thabor voorhanden was, enz.
~ Uit dit verhaal van SUFFRIDUS zou men, mijns bedunkens, moeten opmaken, vooreerst, dat dit Freske Riim het geschrift van ALVINUS niet kan zijn; want het zouden, volgens hem, Belgische, dat is Nederduitsche, rijmen moeten zijn; en dat zijn ze niet, maar Oud-Friesche, of liever Friesche, in de toenmalige landtaal geschreven. Ten tweede blijkt het allerduidelijkst, uit vergelijking van ons stuk met de opgave van SUFFRIDUS, dat het onze veel minder bevat, dan dat van ALVINUS zou bevatten, alsmede, dat het in andere opzigten er van verschilt."
### Posted 12 February 2011 - 09:35 AM
Otharus, on 11 February 2011 - 04:00 PM, said:
Notes by E. Epkema to "Thet Freske Riim" (page 56-57)
"(...) ALVINUS (...) would have changed Frisian poetry into 'Netherdutch' poetry (...)
This Freske Riim cannot be the work of from ALVINUS, because then it would have to be Belgian, that is 'Netherdutch', poetry; which they are not, they are Old-Frisian or rather Frisian, written in the common language of the time. (...)"
How 'FRISIA' became FLANDRIA
Translated (with my comments between [...]) from: www.ijpelaan.nl
"The Flevum from the Roman period, later mostly referred to as Almere, was a sea-bay between Calais, St.Omaars, Winoksbergen and further up north. The name Almere is confirmed by local texts. (...) The Zuiderzee of the Netherlands never had the name Almere. (...)" [Delahaye, "De ware kijk op...", pt.1, p.87]
"Close to the Flevum (...), known today as Plaine Flamande, we find at short distance names that are well known from Hollandic history [pseudo-history!], like
Witla (Wissant, never localised in the Netherlands),
Werethina (Fréthun, not Werden),
Attingahem (Assinghem or Autingues, not Nederhorst den berg),
Adricheim (Audrehem, not the house of Adrichem near Beverwijk),
Tilia (Tilques, not Tiel)
Nifterlaca (Éperlecques, not the Zuiderzee),
Dorestadum (Audruicq, not Wijk bij Duurstede),
Trajectum (Tournehem-sur-la-Hem, not Utrecht),
Burdina (de Bourre, not the Boorne in Friesland),
Isla (the Lyzel, not the IJsel),
Lockia (the Loquin, not the Lek),
Daventria (Desvres, not Deventer),
and many more, too many to all mention here, that are usually ignored in traditional [Dutch] historiography because they cannot be localised anywhere in the Netherlands." [IJpelaan]
"The first count ("graaf") of Flanders ("Vlaanderen"), who had taken the initiative to protect the coastal area from the Normans, initially took care of the area that had no lord ("heer"), because most of it was land that had recently become dry again [re-claimed?]. First is was called Flelandria, because it had emerged from the former Flevum or Fle, which name transformed into Flandria. The first count could not use the title "of Frisia", because that area still existed and was not his. After his expansions he continued using the new name [Flandria], that eventually, when Frisia became part of his domains, replaced the old name [Frisia]." [Delahaye, "De ware kijk op...", pt.2, p.302]
"Later the name [Frisia] was relocated from the original area to the current region West-Friesland, and more later also to what is now the Netherlandic province Friesland." [IJpelaan]
### Posted 13 February 2011 - 07:17 AM
Abramelin, on 10 February 2011 - 07:52 PM, said:
And you can bet I will try to dig up the sources Van Haren based his poem on.
Can this be a clue?
"This story the Frisians could have made up themselves, but they didn't, they took it ready-made from the Saxons.
~ Rudolfus Fuld, Transl. S. Alexandri (ca. 860),
~ Widukind, Res gestae Saxonieae (ca. 970),
~ Ekkehard, Chronicon universale (ca. 1110)
(...)
That story of an army division of Alexander the great, with Saxo, Bruno and including Friso, was taken by the Frisians from Nethersaxon chronicles."
Translated from:
KRITIEK der FRIESCHE GESCHIEDSCHRIJVING
(Review of Frisian Historiography)
by Dr. J. BOLHUIS VAN ZEEBURGH (1873) page 71/72
### Posted 13 February 2011 - 07:26 AM
Alewyn, on 11 February 2011 - 09:32 AM, said:
Dr. Ottema’s paper delivered in 1872 and his foreword to his second edition of the OLB in 1876 gave ample proof that the OLB was not a hoax. Yet, everybody ignored or ridiculed him. Even now, the Dutch are having a dilemma in reporting the results of the tests done on the manuscript. Why would that be?
People say: ideas rule the world, and this is true. It is known that a strong conviction has driven the first followers of Mohammed, and a few centuries later the Spanish Christians, the crusaders etc. to great deeds, that they could not have done without this conviction. Also the belief that Charles the Great had given the Frisians the privilege of only having to serve te emperor, and no count or lord, surely has changed the course of the history of these peoples, from Kennemerland to past the Wezer, from how it would have been otherwise [without this belief]. The Westfrisians would have resisted less sturdy against the counts of Holland, had they not been convinced that justice was on their side. Also the Westergoërs, Oostergoërs [Eastfrisians] etc. would have put their swords away earlier and not have so strongly rejected a kind of government that was yet unknown to them. Later too, they would have assimilated much more with what came from outside, and also today they would be less 'selfstanding' [isolated, independent], proud and 'ownmindy' [wayward]. The history books of the Frisians, e.g. the writings of Emmius, would be totally different, had this conviction not existed, because Emmius too always explained his sources in a way his ideas about freedom demanded of him, that is; totally different from how a non-Frisian would explain them.
Source:
KRITIEK der FRIESCHE GESCHIEDSCHRIJVING
(Review of Frisian Historiography)
by Dr. J. BOLHUIS VAN ZEEBURGH (1873) page 10
Original text in Dutch:
Men zegt wel eens: ideën regeeren de wereld, en dit zeker niet ten onrechte. Men weet dat eene sterke overtuiging de eerste volgelingen van Mohammed, en eenige eeuwen later de Christenvolken Van Spanje, de kruisvaarders enz. tot groote daden heeft opgewekt, die zij zonder die overtuiging niet zouden verricht hebben. Ook het geloof dat keizer Karel de Friezen had toegestaan alleen aan den keizer, en buiten dien aan geen graaf of heer, onder danig behoeven te zijn, heeft zekerlijk de geschiedenis van dezen volksstam, van Kennemerland af tot over de Wezer, een geheel anderen loop doen nemen, dan anders het geval zou geweest zijn. De Westfriezen zouden zich minder hardnekkig tegen de Hollandsche graven hebben verdedigd, zoo ze niet overtuigd waren geweest dat het recht aan hunne zijde was. Ook de Westergoërs, Oostergoërs enz. zouden vroeger het zwaard in de schede hebben gestoken en niet zoo af keerig geweest zijn van een hun nog onbekenden regeeringsvorm. Zij zouden ook later zich veel meer met hetgeen van buiten kwam geassimileerd hebben, en ook thans minder zelfstandig, trotsch en eigenzinnig zijn. De geschiedboeken der Friezen, b.v. de geschriften van Emmius, zouden, had die overtuiging niet bestaan, er geheel anders uitzien, want ook Emmius heeft zijne bronnen altijd zóó verklaard als zijne vrijheidsideën dat eischten, d.i. geheel anders dan een niet Fries ze zou verklaren.
### Posted 13 February 2011 - 01:57 PM
Abramelin, on 12 February 2011 - 09:27 PM, said:
The schematic map below ...
The map you posted is a joke, right? Neither traditional, nor serious alternative historians would dare use it.
Neither would you if you had ever understood anything of Delahaye's work. Please read IJpelaan's website first if you want to discuss this. I have better things to do than spell it out to someone who can read Dutch.
That website where you got the map and quote from (bertsgeschiedenissite) proves that its creator does not have a clue. (Where is the source for that 966AD document, which is probably a forgery?)
Wether or not Urk existed and wheter the name Almere was used elsewhere is irrelevant to the significant point I made:
that Frisia/ Fresia of the first-millennium sources must be placed in north-west Francia and not in what is now the Netherlands.
As soon as one accepts this, much of what is considered to be Frisian 'fantastic' (fantasy based) historiography starts to totally make sense.
### Posted 14 February 2011 - 08:24 AM
Abramelin, on 13 February 2011 - 06:16 PM, said:
But the fact remains that you stated that there was no Almere in the Netherlands in the first millenium, and a historical magazine of 1885 quotes a source that should prove there was.
To be precise: I presented my translation of a Delahaye quote taken from IJpelaan's website.
The part "The Zuiderzee of the Netherlands never had the name Almere" may be right (if the 966AD document, like many similar ones of that time, is a forgery, used to claim and trade rights to land), or it may be wrong (if the document is authentic and not a 'copy' of a later date; in this case there was more than one "Almere"). Either way, it's irrelevant. To avoid distraction, I would now leave out the references to Almere, so the introduction becomes this:
"The Flevum from the Roman period, (...) was a sea-bay between Calais, St.Omaars, Winoksbergen and further up north." [Delahaye, "De ware kijk op...", pt.1, p.87]
### Posted 14 February 2011 - 08:34 AM
Abramelin, on 13 February 2011 - 06:55 PM, said:
If Otharus is right, then the parts about Middelburg, Leiden, Culemborg, Leeuwarden, and so on. There should only have been water instead of habitable land between 200 and 1000 AD. The last period of the OLB must have been about a time when there was only sea.
(...)
Well, I think Otharus is wrong, based on archeology. Dorestad should not have existed between 200 and 1000 AD according to Delahaye, but it did.
And I posted about a treasure found in Wieuwerd (fibulas, coins) from the 7th century. How can that be if it was sea? Did they send divers down to bury the loot undersea?
???
Nowhere did I suggest that all of what is now the Netherlands did not exist in the first millennium, and neither did Albert Delahaye.
Some of the main conclusions are:
- Willibrord operated in Traiectum (now: Tournehem-sur-la-Hem)/ Aefternacum (now: Éperlecques) and not in Utrecht/ Echternach (Netherlands/ Luxemburg). Note: This leaves the possibility that there was some sort of habitation in or near what is now Utrecht!
- Bonifacius died in Dockynchirica (now: Dunkirk) and not in Dokkum (Friesland). Note: This leaves the possibility that there was some sort of habitation in or near what is now Dokkum!
- The legendary Dorestadum of the medieval sources was located at or near what is now Audruicq and not at Wijk bij Duurstede (Netherlands). Note: This leaves the possibility that there was some sort of habitation in or near what is now Wijk bij Duurstede!
- Not discussed here yet, but also important: Charlemagne had his palace in Noviomagum (now: Noyon) and not in Nijmegen (Netherlands). Note: This leaves the possibility that there was some sort of habitation in or near what is now Nijmegen!
- Frisia/ Fresia of the first millenium was where what is now Westflanders/ north-west France (and maybe Zeeland?) and not in what are now the Dutch provinces South-Holland, North-Holland, Utrecht and Friesland. Note: This leaves the possibility that there was some sort of habitation in what is now the Netherlands!
It is accepted that the Romans have been in what is now the Netherlands. Much of the area has been inhabited in the beginning of the first millennium and before that. The 'bog-soil' (?) (dutch: veengrond) indicates that there must have been forests for a long, long time.
HOLTLAND, HOLZLAND, HOUTLAND => WOODLAND (Oakwood is perfect for building ships!?)
What I think (in summary) is that area got flooded more-and-more as a result of long-term deforestation and using the dried bog as fuel to burn. The Low-Lands were flooded not (only) as a result of rising sealevels, but (mostly) because the deforested land was sinking.
### Posted 14 February 2011 - 09:50 AM
Abramelin, on 13 February 2011 - 07:20 PM, said:
Then I hope you like this one:
Or this one (800 AD):
http://www.brucop.com/millennium/nederlands/toponyms/
We really have to forget about the Dutch borders and looks at things from a broader perspective.
### Posted 14 February 2011 - 09:56 AM
Alewyn, on 14 February 2011 - 09:41 AM, said:
Now, Friso and his Indian origins are some of the best known episodes in Frisian legends. Why does the OLB go against these accept “facts” by saying that Friso did not, in fact, come from India. Why did they change this bit around? Surely the guys that fabricated the OLB hoax should have known that this would weaken their case? After all, the rest of their historical facts seem to have been very carefully researched.
My thoughts too and the same goes for Asinga Ascon (legends) VS Asega Askar (OLB). (Many more examples possible.)
### Posted 14 February 2011 - 06:24 PM
Abramelin, on 14 February 2011 - 03:31 PM, said:
The problem with your map is that it is based on the idea that the situation (transgression) lasted for centuries.
They now know it didn't, and that is one of the reasons they left the Dunkirk Transgression Theory.
"Het oorspronkelijke model van de Duinkerkse transgressies wordt inderdaad door steeds meer geologen verlaten. Voor de conclusies over de bewoonbaarheid maakt dat geen verschil; de onbewoonbaarheid krijgt alleen een betere en nauwkeuriger verklaring."
source: http://www.ijpelaan.nl/Archief/Kennemerland/Kenn-Transgressie.html
Translated:
"The initial model of the Dunkirk transgressions is indeed abandoned by ever more geologists. For the conclusions concerning the habitability this does not make a difference; the inhabitability only gets a better, more accurate explanation."
What about those "recent archeological discoveries" proving Delahaye wrong, that you were talking about? They should be all over the internet.
### Posted 14 February 2011 - 06:30 PM
Abramelin, on 14 February 2011 - 03:36 PM, said:
Was there an island called Urk in the Belgium Almere/Flevum?
Btw, the Zuiderzee did have the name Almere, after it was called Flevum.
Urk is of zero-point-zero relevance here.
The Zuiderzee was indeed called Flevum/ Almere,
just like Nijmegen was called Noviomagum,
and Utrecht => Trajectum,
and Dokkum => Dockynchirica,
and Wijk bij Duurstede => Dorestadum
and Holland, Utrecht, Friesland => Frisia
...
AFTER the history of the first millennium was imported to our provinces in the beginning of the second millenium (as I have extensively explained before).
Another interesting quote from:
KRITIEK der FRIESCHE GESCHIEDSCHRIJVING (Review of Frisian Historiography)
by Dr. J. BOLHUIS VAN ZEEBURGH (1873) Page 68 (about Gesta Fresonum):
Dutch:
"Van den tijd waar de heiligenlevens en de verhalen van Karel den groote onzen kroniekschrijver begeven (d. i. van ongeveer 900 tot 1200) tot aan de kruistochten wordt niets verhaald, eene gaping, die ook in andere Friesche kronieken bestaat."
English:
"From the time of the hagiographies and the tales of Charlemagne till the crusades (that is from ca. 900 till 1200), our chronicler has no reports, a gaping hole, that also exists in other Frisian chronicles."
I know it must be hard, having to unlearn things you liked so much at primary school.
The older you are, the more it hurts (for a little while).
### Posted 14 February 2011 - 06:46 PM
Abramelin, on 14 February 2011 - 05:57 PM, said:
It's indeed the other Frisian legends that say that Friso came from India.
But overall the OLB has many similarities with those other legends.
Have you actually read any of the old-Frisian chronicles?
There are hardly any similarities, the only ones I can think of now are Friso and Azinga Ascon (Asega Askar or black Adel in OLB), and OLB gives a completely different perspective than we know from the legends. Ottema pointed this out too in his introduction to his translation.
Thet Freske Riim suggests that the Frisians stem from Sem, one of the three sons of Noah...
Kroniek van Friesland (Occo Scarlensis) suggests that before Friso c.s. arrived, our lands were inhabited by giants from Albion...
They don't say much about the time before the year zero.
### Posted 14 February 2011 - 07:01 PM
Abramelin, on 14 February 2011 - 06:48 PM, said:
Well, at least from the Dutch Dorestad it is now known by many archeological finds to have been an important city of the Frisians.
If this would not be exaggerated, there should be loads about it on the web, even videos.
### Posted 15 February 2011 - 02:37 AM
Abramelin, on 14 February 2011 - 07:03 PM, said:
Man, Google "Dorestad" and "archeologie".
An impressive quantity of finds yes, but nothing of quality at first sight.
I have a bad web-connection here, cannot go look for a needle in a haystack (which I don't believe exists anyway).
You claimed to know proof that Wijk bij Duurstede is the legendary Dorestad.
Please enlighten us.
### Posted 15 February 2011 - 02:41 AM
Abramelin, on 14 February 2011 - 08:47 PM, said:
Joël Vandemaele, "Controversiele Geschiedenis" :
http://www.mens-en-cultuur-uitgevers.be/boeken/controversiele-geschiedenis/controversiele-geschiedschrijving/
Yes, I am going to order and study that book, as well as his Beowulf book (Het BEOWULF-epos).
http://www.mens-en-cultuur-uitgevers.be/boeken/cultuurgeschiedenis-en-erfgoed/het-beowulf-epos/
Have you read the info about that one?
### Posted 15 February 2011 - 01:50 PM
Otharus, on 13 February 2011 - 01:57 PM, said:
Frisia/ Fresia of the first-millennium sources must be placed in north-west Francia and not in what is now the Netherlands.
As soon as one accepts this, much of what is considered to be Frisian 'fantastic' (fantasy based) historiography starts to totally make sense.
As part of an attempt to bridge the gap between the Oera Linda-book and accepted history, here is some more re-interpreted history of Northwestern Europe in the first Millennium.
Improvised translation by me from www.ijpelaan.nl with added notes between [...].
Frisi, Normanni and Saxoni (see separate post)
### Posted 16 February 2011 - 02:44 AM
Abramelin, on 15 February 2011 - 10:53 PM, said:
But what I read was known in the 19th century.
You seem to think these guys were ignorant.
Halbertsma had the knowledge and the motive, and he sure as hell would have known of these 19th century stories.
Most of the 19th century scholars (the dominant ones), who we may suppose to have been some of the least ignorant guys of their time, agreed that the OLB consisted of blatant, blasphemous nonsense and that its language was nothing but gibberish.
Even Goffe Jensma (now professor-doctor Frisian culture) thought so five years ago.
We (being some of the least ignorant guys of our time), more than 150 years after it was supposedly created, finally seem to agree that the OLB might possibly be authentic.
In none of the 3134 previous posts have we discovered a single detail that would prove that the OLB has to be a hoax.
In other words; the 19th century scholars, and their successors up to Dr. Jensma, were wrong by not taking the OLB seriously.
### Posted 16 February 2011 - 09:16 AM
Abramelin, on 15 February 2011 - 10:53 PM, said:
But what I read was known in the 19th century.
Halbertsma had the knowledge and the motive, and he sure as hell would have known of these 19th century stories.
If any omniscient joker created the OLB in the 19th century, based on what was 'known' at that time, it would be no less than a miracle that he did not use any 'knowledge' that would later (between then and now) be proven wrong.
### Posted 16 February 2011 - 11:50 AM
Otharus, on 13 February 2011 - 01:57 PM, said:
Frisia/ Fresia of the first-millennium sources must be placed in north-west Francia and not in what is now the Netherlands.
In French-Flanders twenty toponyms can be found that can be traced back directly to the Fresones:
Fersinghem, former Frisinghem;
Festibert, former Fristubert;
Frescôte;
Frémicourt, former Friesmecourt;
Frésicourt;
Fresne (4×);
Fresnes-sur-Escaut (Escaut is the French name of the Scheldt);
Fresnes-lès-Montauban;
Fresnicourt-le-Dolmen;
Fresnoie;
Fresnoy (6×);
Fresnoy-en-Gohelle;
Fressain;
Fresse;
Fressin;
Fressins;
Fressinge;
Frévillers, former Friesvilla;
Frévin-Capelle;
Frissinghe;
source: "Germania = Frans-Vlaanderen bij Tacitus" by Albert Delahaye (1996)
Translated from www.ijpelaan.nl
### Posted 18 February 2011 - 01:16 AM
Abramelin, on 17 February 2011 - 08:35 PM, said:
Pharismanes is Friso
Friesland had been settled early, with evidence of terp-building, the distinctive raised settlements, starting in 700 BC.
I am just adding info, I am not saying it disproves Delahaye's claims.
But what I found out sure as hell should make one have second thoughts about Delahaye's claims.
Interesting finds (EDIT: at first sight, but having second thoughts already), I'm listening and meanwhile reading about the Herrels/ Heruli ('swamp'-people!?). Also I have ordered Vandermaele's two books. And waiting for the OLB paper-ink study report.
It's always good to have second thoughts, but I think you misunderstood Delahaye's 'claims', that anyway have evolved into better theories by some of his successors. I believe too that some of what is now NL was inhabited earlier, then lost to the floods and later reclaimed again. This does fit into what Delahaye said; his most significant work (i.m.o.) was about the interpretation of where the Batavi lived (not Betuwe!), where Fresia, Noyon, Traiectum, Aefternacum, Dockynchirka, Renus, Fle etc. of the sources from the second half of the first millennium should be located. The transgressions theory was not a main pillar on which his work rested. The main pillar was thorough research of loads of original documents as well as (the lack of) archaeological finds in the places that were always thought to have been so important in the time of Charles 'the great' and the christenings.
Having a break of heavy posting again to let what I posted last week sink in and prepare for a new leap forward.
### Posted 18 February 2011 - 06:11 AM
Abramelin, on 18 February 2011 - 02:04 AM, said:
Delahaye's successors simply ignore new archeological finds.
Which you still have not linked to (I asked you earlier, but you simply ignore difficult questions).
If there would have been finds that would prove him wrong, they would be spectacular, Kees IJpelaan would know of them, SEM (Studygroup First Millennium) would know of them, and they would be all over the web. They are not, because they in fact prove Delahaye right; that Nijmegen and Utrecht were minor settlements, and that Northern Germany was NOT old-Saxony. The Romans were never even there. Tacitus' Germania was not our Germany, but Northern Francia.
All this has huge implications for European history as we know it.
### Posted 19 February 2011 - 07:48 AM
Alewyn, on 18 February 2011 - 10:04 AM, said:
Otharus, Just a few thoughts; some of which I have also expressed in my book:
Thanks Alewyn, this is very helpful as it summarises things up and it shows me which parts need further explanation.
Quote
1. I won’t pretend to understand Frisian historiography and all the various interpretations and theories by people such as Delahaye, etc. nor shall I attempt to reconstruct the geography of Europe’s western coastline, especially around Belgium, the Netherlands and Denmark. That I’ll leave to people such as yourself and Abe.
In future posts I will help you (and anyone else who's interested) understand more of the relevant bits of Delahaye's theories and their implications for the interpretation of Frisian historiography and the reception of the Oera Linda-book. Without Delahaye, some of the old-Frisian historiographies indeed seem nonsense; that's why scholars in the past had to conclude that they mostly must have been fantasy-based. And because they were already used to thinking like this (in conspiracy theories about supposedly fabricated historiography, specially concerning that of Ocko Scharlensis, Johannes Vlytarp and Andreas Cornelius Stavrienses, firstly published in the 16th century), the conclusion that OLB had to be a fabrication as well, was made (too) easily.
This needs a better explanation, which I will give in a seperate post, that is in preparation.
As for geography reconstruction; for now it's good to just get used to the idea that for example OLB's Texland does not have to be our Texel, that OLB's Mêdêasblik does not have to be our Medemblik etcetera, because there have been migrations (back and forth?), by which names of places, rivers, islands etc. were copied and moved. This could explain the lack of archaeological finds at certain locations, because we may be looking at the wrong sites.
Quote
2. Am I correct to say that you are trying to prove that many of the old Frisian historians that have either been ignored or assumed false, should have been taken more seriously? This then by association should include the OLB? Could you clarify this to me (and to others?).
Yes! Thanks for asking. It will be my pleasure to make this the main topic of my near-future posts.
Quote
3. Your present reconstruction covers the period from the early middle ages or perhaps the whole AD era. The OLB, of course, goes back a further 2000 years to 4200 BP.
Yes, I hope this reconstruction will help us understand in what context the (last two?) copies by Liko (803 AD) and Hidde (1256 AD) were made. Also it may explain why it's so difficult to find physical evidence of the old culture. Furthermore, it becomes more clear that certain patterns in history seem to repeat themselves, as if in a spiral. There may be certain 'archetypes' that keep coming back (like the strong and/or wise revolutionary leader that stands up in time of need). That's how Jensma believed that OLB was actually about a religious/ political controversy in the 19th century. Many of OLB's 'story elements' can be projected on later (and earlier?) events as they are, in a way, repetitions of the same principle. (You have also pointed this out by comparing South Africa, a former Dutch colony, with Athens, a former Fryan colony.)
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4. If, however, we only look at your (and Abe’s) posts regarding the last 2000 years, a few things can be accepted as fact:
• The Frisians have been along Europe’s Western Seaboard long before the Romans and even the Vikings (Tacitus, Pliny the Elder, etc.) – precisely what the OLB tells us.
Yes, Frisians AND other groups that ALSO stem from the FRYANS. Another thing I will explain in near-future posts, is my theory that there are actually two different sorts of "Frisians"; the people of Friso (who was of Fryan blood, but was actually an immigrant who started a whole new tradition) and the people of Frya (who had never left the area and wanted to maintain the original matriarchal system and therefore were not overly happy with Friso's more warlike ways). I believe that the Over de Linden family, in which the OLB was passed on, is part of the second group. In the 19th and early 20th century most of them were called "vrijzinnig"; something like "free-thinkers" as opposed to more strictly religious people. I believe the Frisian 'nobility', the people with most power and wealth, are more of the bloodline of Friso. In the 19th century they were more "streng-gereformeerd", which means they took the Bible very seriously. More about this later.
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• At different stages the Frisians can be traced to various places in Western Europe viz. France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Denmark and North-Western Germany. (Including Britain) This widespread presence bears out the OLB’s claims.
Indeed, the best proof i.m.o. is how traces of the OLB language can easily be identified in all the different European languages, and the various old mythologies show reflections of what in OLB are still historical characters and events.
Quote
• Ignoring the OLB’s previous 2000 years, “just” over the last 2000 years the Frisian’s have been in numerous wars and struggles for their sovereignty. They were conquered many times and had seen their social, cultural and political fibers dramatically altered and almost destroyed on numerous occasions. Many other peoples from all over the world who had been subjected to lesser calamities have totally disappeared from the scene. Yet, some of the Frisian[s] national[ist]s around today apparently still stubbornly cling to their creed regardless of whether the OLB and other historical writings are taken as fact or fiction. Either the OLB is true or the Frisians are and have been compulsive liars regarding their history for millennia as Abe claims.
This actually brought tears in my eyes... Truth has been suppressed and twisted for a long, long time here. I believe that the significantly higher rates of depression and suicide in both Friesland and Westfriesland, is a direct or indirect result of this. It's horrible to be falsely accused lying.
I also believe that the reason why so much of the old culture could still survive here, is that in the Fryan bloodline (which would be more matriarchal and less confused by much migration), culture is more passed on by mothers, and less by male (religious or military) teachers.
Quote
• If one only considers the last 2000 years, Europe’s Western coastal lands have been subjected to numerous very destructive floods and other natural disasters. Hundreds of well documented villages in and around the Netherlands have totally disappeared. Others which have not been completely washed away, have been rebuilt and are known to have now existed for as much as 2000 years. In other words, these old towns and settlements merely evolved into the towns and cities that we know today, (as I have shown in my book). In other cases material from the surviving structures have been salvaged and used in new constructions or put to some other use. A case in point here are the numerous terpen mounds in the Netherlands that have been destroyed during the 19th and 20th centuries for use as fertilizer. Yet, Abe still insist on archaeological evidence in the form of old brick structures.
I don't know about those "Hundreds of well documented villages", but I know of some. Were they discussed here earlier or do you have a link or chapter in your book where I can read about it?
I agree there are several good explanations possible for the lack of archaeological evidence. One of them is that they are not looking properly, because they want to confirm the existing paradigm, not confuse it more. Second there should be more international cooperation. Since the emergence of nations in Europe, "history" has mostly been a political tool; 1) to claim 'ancient' rights to land and its fruits, 2) to prepare (brainwash) the youth to become proud citizens who are willing to pay taxes (work for their masters) and fight (die) for their country if needed. 3) More recent: to promote tourism!
Truth has not always been the highest priority of the historic 'science'.
Quote
• The damp climate in the Netherlands are not conducive to the preservation of artifacts as is the hot, dry climate, for example, in the Middle East.
Also, most of the articfacts, buildings and ships will have been made of some of the most wonderful materials we had here; (oak-!) wood and hemp. Anyone who wants to cut and carve stone, will first practice with wood. Stone lasts, not wood. The term "Friezen" is still used for carved ornaments in buildings. Old churches (and other old buildings) in NL sometimes have the most beautiful examples of this art that must have evolved over thousands of years.
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• If there are this much confusion over the last 2000 years, how much more so for the previous 2000 years?
Very much indeed, but I believe it's possible to reconstruct much of it, when historians of different traditions join forces in a constructive, less competitive and political way.
Quote
• Add to the above the dense population and intensive cultivation of Europe, it should then be clear to anybody that the apparent absence of structures and artifacts in Western Europe is no proof that the OLB is wrong.
Indeed, but I believe that some will surface from private collections (maybe even from secret archives, like those of the Vatican), and museum depots, once OLB is accepted to be authentic. People will look at things with different eyes.
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• You and Abe have already proven that the language of the OLB is not gibberish (wartaal) but do in fact show a remarkable similarity to other old Frisian dialects. Just on this one point, many of the 19th century opponents of the OLB are proven wrong.
That is correct. Since Beckering Vinckers' highly emotional article (he felt insulted), no serious study of the language has ever been done as far as I know. Jensma was not a linguist, nor a historian, but a theologian!
Not only is 'Fryan' similar to old-Frisian dialects (less to Rustringian than to Westfrisian and Nethersaxon!), but also very much so to Scandinavian languages, German and obviously Dutch and English. One could make a family tree of languages, with 'Fryan' as one of the oldest ancestors.
Quote
It is a pity that we have no Dutch, Frisian or even European historians participating in this debate. On the other hand, most of them will most likely see us as adversaries or remain in total denial (as some) instead of considering this alternative (and to my mind, true) history on its merits.
Times will change...
### Posted 21 February 2011 - 07:54 AM
Alewyn, on 20 February 2011 - 04:23 PM, said:
Herewith some floods and casualties from v. Baars’ paper (and from other sources)
Some more about floods:
Water-floods in Friesland
(source: "It aade Friesche Terp, of KRONYK der GESCHIEDENISSEN van de VRYE FRIESEN", 3rd edition 1834, p.334-339)
- 333 North Holland; Zijpe/ Roman city "Grebbe", half hour north of Wieringen would have been lost
- 435 Frl.
- 516 Frl.
- 570 or 533 [or both]
- 584
- 586 or 626, or both, in Frl./ 4 years later Adgillus started making floodmounds and terps, first dykes
- 792 or 793 many people and cattle lost, several cities, villages, forests and lands lost
- 806 St.-Thomas flood, Frl./ from this one till mid 12th century several floods in Friesland, North-Holland, Zeeland and Flanders, specially 839
- 1164 beginning of the year; St.-Julians flood; thousands of people and cattle lost
- 1178 All-Saints flood; "all-destroying"/ sea came up to Utrecht/ partly caused by "greedy Frisian abotts" who had been digging in the lands
- 1200 part of Frl.
- 1212 "terrible waterflood" in North-Holland
- 1219 january; Marcellus flood, "incomparable", much destruction between Wezer and Schelde, thousands of lives lost.
- 1220, '21, 22, 23, 24 every year; as well as in '27/30/37/46/48,49,50/57/62/66/73/77/85/87,88/90; utterly disasterous years for Friesland. In this century Ezonsstad, Camminghaburg near Leeuwarden, Britsenburg at the Middelzee, Wartena partly, and Grind completely disappeared.
- 1313, as well as in '34/36/61/77/80/87.
- 1400 the "Friesche vloed"; important for the rise of Amsterdam because of the widening of Marsdiep.
- 1403 third Catharina's flood
- 1421 St.-Elisabeth's flood; 72 villages in South-Holland's Waard flooded, 20 completely lost.
- 1425,26,27,28,29 every year, '34/37/46/64/70/74/77/97
- 1502,03/09/16.17/20/24,25 (3 floods in one year)/30,31,32 (31 and 32 possibly the same flood)/52/59
- 1570 All-saints flood; "reshaped the coastlines from France to Norway", "indescribable", ca. 20.000 dead in Frl.
- 1572,73/75/77,78; some dykes and dams were built
- 1610 south-west corner; 1623/25/43.
- 1651 St.-Pieters flood, after river floods in january in the Netherlands; the following months in Frl. and terrible for North Holland.
- 1665/75.
- 1701/03/15/17; "7 kersflood" mainly in East Friesland
- 1731 a plague of worms eating wooden foundation of dykes ("paalworm").
- 1775,76 in Frl.
- 1825 destruction at coastlines from North-Jutland to France.
The publication where this is taken from is considered by dr. Jensma c.s. to be part of the tradition of Frisian "fantasy based" historiography...
Who would make up something like this and why?
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Something else:
Archaeological finds in the province North-Holland from between 2900-2500 BC: website of the Single Grave Culture research group
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
A reveiling quote from "De Gemaskerde God" by Goffe Jensma (2004), page 75 (translated by me):
"The primal father of the Frisians would be a certain Friso, an Indian prince who, after having served in Alexander's army, landed in Friesland in 313 BC. Without mentioning their sources and therefore based on their fantasy, authors like Ocko Scarlensis, Suffridus Petrus and Martinus Hamconius painted a detailed image of the main events in the old-Frisian society from that moment on up to their own time."
Original in Dutch:
"... de stamvader van de Friezen [zou] een zekere Friso zijn, een Indiase prins die, nadat hij in het leger van Alexander de Grote had gediend, in 313 voor Christus voet op Friese bodem zette. Zonder bronvermeling en dus vanuit hun fantasie, wisten schrijvers als Ocko Scarlensis, Suffridus Petrus en Martinus Hamconius een gedetailleerd beeld te schilderen van de belangrijkste gebeurtenissen in de Oudfriese samenleving vanaf dat moment tot in de eigen tijd."
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
The website www.wumkes.nl is the "digital historic library of Friesland", an initiative of people who aim at promoting the study of Frisian cultural history.
It provides some interesting scanned sources, some of which I've been studying recently.
I would herewith like to thank them for providing this oportunity.
They are especially promoting their latest upload, the ("fantasy-based"?) Bible in the Frisian 'language' (or dialect) with a flashy banner in the right upper corner of their website.
President (voorzitter) of the Wumkes editorial office is: Goffe Jensma from the Fryske Akademy.
Isn't that interesting?
### Posted 21 February 2011 - 10:03 AM
Otharus, on 21 February 2011 - 07:54 AM, said:
source: "It aade Friesche Terp, of KRONYK der GESCHIEDENISSEN van de VRYE FRIESEN", 3rd edition 1834
... considered by dr. Jensma c.s. to be part of the tradition of Frisian "fantasy based" historiography
Abe, you suggested a relation between Friesen en Pruisen before.
I thought this was a good find, don't remember ever having read it somewhere else before, not in Jensma's work, I think.
Now have a good read of the following...
Fast improvised translation from: "It aade Friesche Terp"
[P.2]
Frieso, eerste Prins van Friesland, arriveert in 313 BC.
Frieso, first prince of Friesland, arrives in 313 BC.
[p.3]
Als die roemruchtige en groote Alexander, die in het bloeyenste van zyn jeugd het meerendeel van Asia overweldigde,
When the notorious and great Alexander, who in the most florishing of his youth mastered most of Asia,
kreeg hy toeloop van veele volkeren, die hy of overwonnen hadde, of in die gewesten huis hielden;
had many groups of people come to him, that he had either mastered, or who just lived in these lands;
om zyne gelukkige wapenen tot zo veele spoedige overwinningen te helpen bevorderen.
to support his lucky armies make many fast victories.
Onder deze vrywillige krygers waren zommige van de voornaamsten uit Persien,
Among these voluntary warriors, some of the noblest from Persia,
en hunne onderhoorige Saxen (Sacæ) de minsten niet.
and their vassals the Saxons (Sacae) were not the least.
Dewelke, na dat Alexander overleden was, en die voorige verheerde volkeren, door zijner Nazaaten oneenigheid,
(...)
de handen ruim kregen, vreesden dat het hun t'eeniger tyd mogte gewrooken worden:
(...)
zy maaken derhalven een besluit, om met malkanderen, naar de wyze Van dien tyd,
(...)
een veiliger land tot hun wooninge op te zoeken.
(...)
Hunne Geleiders waren Frieso en Saxo, om hunne gezelligheid gebroeders gezegt,
Their leaders were Frieso and Saxo, called brothers because of their familiarity,
en eigentlyk zo genaamt, of naar den volsknaam van hunne landslieden zo bekent:
and originally named like that, after the name of their peoples as known:
welker eerste Persiaanen, en de andere hun gebuuren, uit de woestyn,
First the Persians, the other their neighbors from the desert,
die nu Belor heet, gemeenlyk Indiaanen genoemt zyn;
now called Belor, usually called Indians;
om dat ze van ouds, allen die naar 't Oosten woonden, den naam van Indiaanen gaven.
as since the old days all who lived in the east were called Indians.
Des zij tot hunnen sleep een vloot van 300 zeilen toetakelden,
They left with a fleet of 300 sails,
en staken er mede af van het land van Cilicien,
from the land of Cilicien,
in Notalia of kleen Asia, gelegen in de Zwarte Zee.
in Notalia or little Asia, in the Black Sea.
Van waar zy, wonderlyk omkruissende , door verscheidene woeste zeen heen slingerden, tot dat zy eindelyk,
from where they (...) finally,
na veele ondervindingen en verlies van de meeste schepen, met slechts 54 stuks in de Oostzee zyn vervallen;
after many experiences and the loss of most ships, arrived in the East-sea with only 54 ships left;
en waar van 12 op het eiland Rugen, en 18 in Pruissen zijn aangeland:
and of which 12 on the island Rugen, and 18 landed in Pruissen:
de overige 24 den Fliestroom (welke de Roomsche Schryvers den derden Mond des Rhyns noemen) inzeilende,
the other 24 sailing into the Fliestream (called third mouth of the Rhine by Roman writers),
hebben dit gewest, dat nu van hunnen naam Friesland genaamt word, aangedaan,
arrived in these lands, now called friesland after them,
landende ten west Staveren op de Kreil, daar nu de volle zee voor Enkhuizen is:
landing west of Staveren at the kreil, where is now the sea near Enkhuizen:
alwaar zy, geen menschen vindende, en na zo een kommerlyk omzwerven,
where they, not finding any people, (...)
het eerste stand greepen, en die plaatze den naam gaven van Staden.
took the first stand (...)
Daar Frieso ook een Vryhuis voor de vlugtelingen bouwde, zelve een weinig oostelyker optrok,
(...)
en een stad bouwde, die naderhand Staveren genaamt wierd.
(...)
Doch als in het volgende jaar de zomer hoogde, kwamen de Swaaven,
But in the next summer, the Swaaven came,
die hier 's zomers huis hielden en 's winters landwaards in weeken,
who resided here in summers and moved inland during winters,
om de overwateringen van de zwaare stormen:
because of the floods and heavy storms:
want het land was doe noch met geen dyken omheinigt.
the land was not yet protected by dykes.
Deze, om datze ruuwe en onervaarene krygslieden waren,
These, being rough and inexperienced warriors,
zyn ligtelyk van de Friesen op de vlugt gedreven,
have slightly been driven away by the Friesen,
die hun zetel hier nu door goede beschansingen gevestigt hadden.
who had settled here now with good protection.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
In preparation:
Family relations of Friso in "It aade Friesche Terp", compared to those in the Oera Linda-book.
### Posted 21 February 2011 - 05:41 PM
Otharus, on 21 February 2011 - 10:03 AM, said:
In preparation:
Family relations of Friso in "It aade Friesche Terp", compared to those in the Oera Linda-book.
Comparing Friso history/ mythology
of Frisian 'fantastic' historiography
with that of OLB ~ a first try.
It aade Friesche Terp (edition 1834)
p.05 Hil, his wife; they had seven sons, each ruling over one of the 7 sealands
[In OLB his wife's name is Swethirte, with whom he had 2 sons and 2 daughters. The double use of 7 sounds like mythology to me.]
.... Weemoed, daughter of other mother who died at giving birth
[OLB: oldest daughter is called WEE.MOD]
.... AEsge, son responsible for civil rights
.... Scholte, son resp. for main issues
.... Haaije, son; priest of druids, resp. for forests of idols
.... Gaele, son resp. for dykes (waterworks)
.... Hette, son resp. for tribe of Katten
[OLB: brother-in-law from first wife was HETTO]
.... Fyt (Vito) or Jutte, son who married 308 BC daughter of Bokke (Bocchus), king of Jutland
[OLB: son WITTO]
p.07 Frieso died in 245 BC after 68 years of rule, "burried stately after his fatherly Persian ways at Staveren"
[OLB: after "nearly forty years at Staveren"]
.... Adel, oldest son and successor
[same in OLB]
.... Adel married Swobyne, daughter of king of the Swaaven, their neighbors
[OLB: SVOBENE, from Saxenmarken, from the state of Suobaland]
.... Ubbe, son of Jutte (Fyt), had two sons; Fyt and Hendrik
p.08 Hendrik was going to be married in 234 BC to Signe, daughter of Finnish king, but was killed on wedding day by Granus, 5th king of the Danes, who kidnapped the bride out of Finland to marry her himself, but he died 2 years later.
.... Schotte, son of Scholte was sent to 'Schotland' in 220 BC by Adel
.... Adel died in 151 BC
p.09 Ubbe, son of Adel and Swobyne, became his successor; he founded Koln (Keulen), people of Koln were called Ubii by Romans
.... Frieso II, son of Gryns, son of Gaele, son of Haaje, son of Frieso I
.... Frieso II married 120 BC Frouw, daughter of Ubbe, settled in Westfriesland
p.10 Ubbe died in 71 BC, his son Azinga Askon was his successor
.... A.A. made war with king of Tongeren and the Baatenburgers
p.12 A.A. died in 11 AD
p.13 his successor was Diokarus Seegen, his cousin
p.14 Seegen died in 46 AD, in time of peace
.... his son Dibbald Seegen became 6th prince of the Friesen
p.16 Dibbald died in 85 AD and was burried in Staveren
p.17 As Dibbald had no children, Tabbe, one of his army commanders became his successor; he died 130 AD and was the last "prince"
.... Harke, son of Seerp was the 4th priest of Druids 'at the old court' ("op 't oude Hof")
p.18 Sinne, 5th priest of druids
... etcetera.
Oera Linda Book ~ Sandbach translation
(page numbers as in original)
[p.127]
Before Friso came to 'Friesland', he had a son and a daughter who were kidnapped by Demetrius and therefore killed themselves.
[p.144]
"Friso, who was already powerful by his troops, was chosen chief Grevetman of the districts round Staveren.
He laughed at our mode of defending our land and our sea-fights (...) [p.145] When Gosa died, the people from all parts wished to choose another mother; but Friso, who was busy establishing a kingdom for himself, did not desire to have any advice or messenger from Texland."
[p.146]
"Friso had taken here another wife, a daughter of Wilfrethe, who in his lifetime had heen chief count of Staveren. By her he had two sons and two daughters. By his wish Kornelia, his youngest daughter, was married to my brother. Kornelia is not good Frisian ; her name ought to be written Korn-helia. Weemoed, his eldest daughter, he married to Kauch. Kauch, who went to school to him, is the son of Wichhirte, the king of the Geertmen. But Kauch is likewise not good Frisian, and ought to be Kaap (Koop)."
[P.150]
"Witto, or Witte, his son, he sent to superintend. (...) Witto courted Siuchthirte and married her. Wilhem, her father, was chief Alderman of the Jutmen — that is, chief Grevetman or Count. Wilhem died shortly afterwards, and Witto was chosen in his place.
What Friso did further.
Of his first wife he still had two brothers-in-law, who were very daring. Hetto — that is, heat — the youngest, he sent as messenger to Kattaburgt, which lies far in the Saxsenmarken. (...) In the same way as he sent Hetto [P.151] to Kattaburgt, he sent Bruno — that is, brown — the other brother-in-law, to Mannagarda oord. (...) Both the brothers-in-law of Friso had married daughters of the chief princes (...)
[P.153]
"When Friso had been nearly forty years at [p.154] Staveren he died. Owing to him many of the states had been joined together again, but that we were the better for it I am not prepared to certify. Of all the counts that preceded him there was none so renowned as Friso; for, as I said before, the young maidens spoke in his praise, while the old maidens did all in their power to make him hateful to everybody. Although the old women could not prevent his meddling, they made so much fuss that he died without becoming king.
Friso, who had learned our history from the book of the Adelingen, had done everything in his power to win their friendship. His eldest son, whom he had by his wife Swethirte, he named Adel; and although he strove with all his might to prevent the building or restoring any citadels, he sent Adel to the citadel of Texland in order to make himself better acquainted with our laws, language, and customs. When Adel was twenty years old Friso [p.155] brought him into his own school, and when he had fully educated him he sent him to travel through all the states. Adel was an amiable young man, and in his travels he made many friends, so the people called him Atharik — that is, rich in friends — which was very useful to him afterwards, for when his father died he took his place without a question of any other count being chosen.
While Adel was studying at Texland there was a lovely maiden at the citadel. She came from Saxenmarken, from the state of Suobaland, therefore she was called at Texland Suobene, although her name was Ifkja. Adel fell in love with her, and she with him, but his father wished him to wait a little. Adel did as he wished ; but as soon as he was dead, sent messengers to Berthold, her father, to ask her in marriage. Berthold was a prince of high-principled feelings. He had sent his daughter to Texland in the hope that she might be chosen Burgtmaagd in her country, but when he knew of their mutual affection he bestowed his blessing upon them. Ifkja was [p.156] a clever Frisian.["FRYAS"]"
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Just thinking out loud...
OLB feels more realistic and historic, more true than "It aade Friesche Terp", but the latter, although more mythological, still seems to be partly based on historic facts.
OLB is not very positive about Friso, but also not totally negative. It describes how things were changing after he had arrived with his people.
Frisian 'fantastic' historiography (FFH) describes Friso as their founding father, as a hero. Before he arrived there would not have been much, according to their records.
FFH says nothing about a glorious Fryan pre-culture (the 'Frya-Frisians'); it is the history of the 'Friso-Frisians', who seem to have tried to erase the older history of the matriarchal Fryan culture. (By pretending it had never existed; by destroying all the old sources?)
Ironically, a similar thing happened later when the 'bible-Frisians' (with Y-chromosomes of Franks, Romans and Gauls?) wanted to erase (ignore, quash, ridicule) the history of their pre-christian ancestors, the 'Friso-Frisians'.
### Posted 22 February 2011 - 03:28 AM
Abramelin, on 21 February 2011 - 10:36 PM, said:
The Frisian historians of the sixteenth
century, differ in many respects from their predecessors. Their
knowledge was much more comprehensive, they also read Dutch and many
other foreign history books, and Caesar, Tacitus, Pliny, Strabo, etc.
influenced their works.
Yes and they also read a lot of things that we now know is nonsense.
We still have not discovered any of that in the OLB.
Quote
The Red Cliff is part of the moraine of the ice cap from the Saale - ice age. This moraine runs from Texel to Wieringen, by way of the Gaasterland cliffs via Urk, Schokland and Vollenhove to the east. The Red Cliff lies at 10 meters above Amsterdam Ordnance Datum and consists of reddish loam. Only a part of the original cliff bas remained. In the past its southern part was bare and rose from the sea like a "red cliff". The height of the cliff and its colour appealed to the imagination. It was said to be a dormant volcano belching fire in ancient times. In days of old the cliff was said to have burnt, extinguished with sacrifices made to the God Stavo.
http://www.betinking-slachbywarns.nl/tekst/EN/red_cliff.html
I have been wondering what this Red Cliff of the Frisian legends was, and I still do.
Did you check the sources of the site you referred to?
Now this is a piece of modern Frisian folklore; partly based on history, partly on mythology and partly on fantasy. (Check their "links" part...)
This part about the Red Cliff in North Holland is very obviously fantasy. Nowhere else on the internet is there any information about it and, coming from there myself, I would have heard of it. It must have some historic basis though, but I suppose it will be much more south. (French coast?)
### Posted 22 February 2011 - 11:33 AM
Abramelin, on 22 February 2011 - 10:42 AM, said:
And please, read what I quoted again... it doesn't say the Red Cliff (Roode Klif) is in North Holland, it says it part of a moraine running from Texel, and so on, to Urk and Schokland.
It's near Stavoren, in the present IJsselmeer.
Fascinating...
I found some more: references to this cliff, but if that was the original name, or that it was named after the legendary cliff, I cannot tell yet.
On the following image it's called "Clivus Ruber":
Quote
Yes, the writers of the OLB left out the obvious nonsense, like they didn't write about Friso fighting a fiery dragon, lol.
In the 19th century many theories were taken very seriously, that have LATER been proven wrong;
Serious 'knowledge' for them, obvious nonsense for us.
Ironically (again) with the OLB it could be the other way around;
Mainstream society considered it to be obvious nonsense, while we are more-and-more moving towards the conclusion that it might actually be authentic after all.
(Some of us are already beyond this conclusion.)
### Posted 23 February 2011 - 10:00 AM
Abramelin, on 22 February 2011 - 10:45 PM, said:
This thread is like a lawsuit, and we all only have circumstantial evidence to make our case.
As long as no direct evidence shows up, we will be discussing till hell freezes over.
Well, at least your idea about the OLB already evolved from:
Abramelin, on 22 June 2010 - 10:20 PM, said:
OMG, the Oera Linda Bo(o)k is a known hoax.
Just go to the Wiki page about that book, and you will know.
But any Dutch person with something resembling brains could have told you long ago; the etymology portrayed in that book is simply ridiculous.
to:
Abramelin, on 11 February 2011 - 03:33 AM, said:
People, if the Oera Linda Book is a true account of ancient European history,
it would not only change European history, it would change WORLD history.
and:
Abramelin, on 18 February 2011 - 08:12 PM, said:
Assume they concluded the manuscript dates from the 13th century. Then this thread has come to its end.
Assume they concluded the manuscript dates from the 19th century... then we will be busy discussing for another 100 pages, lol.
Though skeptical as I am, the 19th century date would not in itself prove the OLB is a hoax.
It could mean that after the 1256 AD date mentioned in the beginning of the OLB later members of the Over de linden family kept on copying the manuscript, but did not add a remark about them copying it in their copy.
Abramelin, on 22 February 2011 - 10:45 PM, said:
And that is why I keep repeating: we need some form of physical proof.
Proof like: [...]
- proof of the OLB being from the 13th century
In the following week the article about the paper and ink tests is expected to be published and as promised I will inform the forum.
Let's just hope that - if paper and ink prove to be from the 13th century - hardcore hoax-theorists will not insist that the OLB must have been created in the 19th century using 600-year old paper and ink...
Although it's sometimes frustrating to feel misunderstood, I do appreciate Abe's skepticism, as it stimulates us, the 'believers', to dig ever deeper and explain ourselves better.
I'm still busy reading some newly found sources, but would with pleasure try to answer questions about earlier posts, if some of that is not understood.
### Posted 23 February 2011 - 08:09 PM
see separate post about etymology "Heruli"
http://fryskednis.blogspot.nl/2011/03/heruli-new-etymology.html
### Posted 24 February 2011 - 03:04 AM
Abramelin, on 23 February 2011 - 09:01 PM, said:
Maybe I remember wrong, but didn't you study classical Greek??
OK, so Phaeacians should be pronounced as Faiakians. Still nothing like "Frisians".
I did exams Gymnasium in it and I also don't agree with C = K; that is with Latin, but not in the Vatican tradition.
Phaeacians =>> FAEASIANS as far as I know, which to me sounds like someone who can't pronounce R saying Frisians to me.
Quote
Btw, I thought you might like this blog: http://hanskreijns.blogspot.com/
It's from someone who also posts on the SEMafoor site (which is mainly about Delahaye related topics)
I stumbled on it earlier, will have a closer look.
Quote
A post from Goffe Jensma on that site: http://www.semafoor.net/Jensmareactie.htm
Yes, I have a print-out of that.
Quote
Just to inform you: the people who created the SEMafoor site are convinced that the OLB is a hoax, hence this article by Jensma.
I know and they are skeptical about Jensma. (I don't know if they all agree though, they seem to disagree about various topics.)
Quote
I also read somewhere - don't ask me about where - that people who where convinced of Delahaye telling the truth, advised Delahaye NOT to use the OLB to prove his point, because no scientist would ever take him seriously if he did. And it took them great pains to convince him, lol.
That's correct. Only Vandermaele continued that line. I hope his books arrive soon.
Quote
I once posted a link to an online archive of newspapers from the north of The Netherlands but lost it.
Here it is again: http://www.archiefleeuwardercourant.nl/index.do
It are the archives of the Leeuwarder Courant, Dagblad van het Noorden, and Nieuwsblad van het Noorden.
I may have a new look at that again, thanks.
### Posted 24 February 2011 - 10:06 AM
Alewyn, on 24 February 2011 - 06:09 AM, said:
Homer tells us that Ulysses was the only survivor of his expedition. So, all the stories and fantasies came from him.
Poor o'l Ulysses, therefore, either had a speach impediment or, more than likely, he was motherless drunk when he told the story.
You made my day, Alewyn, and I think you are right.
### Posted 24 February 2011 - 10:12 AM
Abramelin, on 23 February 2011 - 09:01 PM, said:
... the people who created the SEMafoor site are convinced that the OLB is a hoax...
... people who where convinced of Delahaye telling the truth, advised Delahaye NOT to use the OLB to prove his point, because no scientist would ever take him seriously if he did. And it took them great pains to convince him...
If there are (SEM-) people who believe OLB is or might be authentic, they would usually keep this a secret, as they don't want to loose their credibility.
### Posted 25 February 2011 - 02:16 AM
Quote
Φαίηκες/Φαίακες
Seeing the original spelling, I remember having translated parts of that, some 25 years ago.
I was more interested in φιλοσοφία (no not pilosopia, Tony).
C followed by e, i or y is pronounced S, so I was right when I said that Phaeacians is pronounced FAEASIANS.
In Archaic Latin, it's different:
The letter ‹C› was the western form of the Greek gamma, but it was used for the sounds /ɡ/ and /q/ alike, possibly under the influence of Etruscan, which lacked any voiced plosives. Later, probably during the 3rd century BC, the letter ‹Z› — unneeded to write Latin proper — was replaced with the new letter ‹G›, a ‹C› modified with a small vertical stroke, which took its place in the alphabet. From then on, ‹G› represented the voiced plosive /ɡ/, while ‹C› was generally reserved for the voiceless plosive /k/. The letter ‹K› was used only rarely, in a small number of words such as Kalendae, often interchangeably with ‹C›.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_alphabet
The translators/ transliterators who changed Φαίηκες/Φαίακες into Phaeacians must have been drunk.
If they would stick more to the original, there would be less confusion.
### Posted 25 February 2011 - 05:51 PM
Otharus, on 18 February 2011 - 01:16 AM, said:
... reading about the Herrels/ Heruli ('swamp'-people!?).
Whether the Oera Linda-book (OLB) is authentic or not, it did help me find a plausible answer to a question I had since I started reading about the HERULI or HERULS: What is the original meaning of their name? Even Danish specialist Troels Brandt did not seem to know.
This is what Wikipedia says:
The Heruli (...) were a nomadic Germanic people, who were subjugated by the Ostrogoths, Huns, and Byzantines in the 3rd to 5th centuries. The name is related to earl (see erilaz) and was probably an honorific military title.
Troels Brandt:
"Ellegaard claimed, that the Heruls were not a tribe or a people but a group of warriors formed by the Romans around 300 AD in Castra Batava. (...) Ellegaard's theory about the Heruls starting as a German warrior group in Castra Batava (Passau at Danube 250 west of Vienna) in the 4th century is based on a hypothetical fellowship with the Bataves in Castra Batava. However the only common stamps between Heruls and Bataves are the reports of mercenaries from Ammanius about campaigns in England and at the Rhine. Probably the Roman use of the two people together was due to their livingplaces in Frisia near the Rhine, where the Bataves were mentioned from around year 0 and the Heruls from 286 AD." (par. 1.3.1.1)
So the Heruli were a group of (traveling) warriors or mercenaries, possibly of Frisian or Fryan origin.
In the language of the OLB there are two words that would - in combination - make perfect sense, as the origin of the name "HERULI":
see separate post about etymology "Heruli"
http://fryskednis.blogspot.nl/2011/03/heruli-new-etymology.html
### Posted 27 February 2011 - 02:01 AM
Abramelin, on 26 February 2011 - 08:35 PM, said:
I have no doubt that the Romans (Latins) were in close contact with these peoples, and adopted many Celtic words that we now consider as true, orginal Latin words.
...
And that is why we think that a word that sounds similar in some (Celtic or Germanic) language to Roman Latin has been adopted from Latin.
It could be the other way round.
...
I once had a friend of mixed Iranian/Pakistan ancestry. His first name was "Kaisar".
I asked him about his first name, and he told me it meant the same as the Dutch "Keizer" or German "Kaisar", meaning 'emperor'.
And nothing like 'say-sar', or the Latin Caesar.
Many think that 'Caesar' was a Latin word, a Latin title.
Did the Romans occupy Pakistan, or Iran?? NO.
The title could have been an Indo-European word, pronounced with a -K- , not with a -C- as we are now forced to believe.
Could this be a clue?
Ottema (1876), p.34/35:
5. Is hwa sjvgun jêr kjasar, sâ mêi hi hêlpa en hêrman jeftha kêning to kjasane, thêr to âk kêren wrde.
5. Is hij zeven jaren kiezer, dan mag hij helpen een heerman of koning te kiezen en dan zelf ook gekozen worden.
### Posted 27 February 2011 - 02:24 AM
Abramelin, on 25 February 2011 - 09:26 PM, said:
Something you will not easily find on the internet: Erular/Erilar = Rune Master.
So which part means "rune" and which part "master"?
This is a later meaning, like the Greek ”Eliouroi” = ”people from the swamps” (Troels Brandt)
I was talking about the original meaning.
Quote
Did you read the pdf about the Heruli, the one that I linked to?
Almost finished. I linked to it too and quoted from it in my post. It's a long text and most interesting.
Quote
It is said they hooked up with the Danes and Frisians, but they were a different tribe.
Yes and they may all have been of 'Fryan' descent.
Quote
Think about this: are you really convinced the Frisians were nothing but warriors and mercenaries?
Does the OLB ever talk about that? I thought not.
No, I did not suggest that, only that it's the original meaning of the word Heruli, the name of a tribe of warriors and mercenaries who lived in the 3rd to 6th century AD.
As you might know by now, OLB (apart from the copyist letters) stops at about the year zero.
Idea: After a few hundred years of being army-people, they had lost their reading and writing tradition, so when most of them settled again in Scandinavia, they (had) developed their own rune-script. But their language and mythology is full of references to their 'Fryan' roots. One of the best examples: their Freyja/ Odin (various spellings) mythology.
I will come back to this.
### Posted 27 February 2011 - 02:06 PM
Otharus, on 27 February 2011 - 02:01 AM, said:
Could this be a clue?
Ottema (1876), p.34/35:
5. Is hwa sjvgun jêr kjasar, sâ mêi hi hêlpa en hêrman jeftha kêning to kjasane, thêr to âk kêren wrde.
5. Is hij zeven jaren kiezer, dan mag hij helpen een heerman of koning te kiezen en dan zelf ook gekozen worden.
I forgot to add Sandbach (1876):
5. When he has been seven years a voter he then may have a vote for the chief or king, and may be himself elected.
Let's do another word-game:
KIASAR =>> kiezer (chooser, voter)
KAISAR =>> keizer = gekozene (chosen one, elected one)?
### Posted 27 February 2011 - 04:49 PM
Otharus, on 27 February 2011 - 02:24 AM, said:
Idea: After a few hundred years of being army-people, they had lost their reading and writing tradition, so when most of them settled again in Scandinavia, they (had) developed their own rune-script. But their language and mythology is full of references to their 'Fryan' roots. One of the best examples: their Freyja/ Odin (various spellings) mythology.
There is a lot of confusion about Nordic/ Germanic (Herulic?) mythology.
The following is copied from "The Heruls" by Troels Brandt, page 100:
Did the son of Thor (Jupiter), Odin (Mercurius), originally marry the daughter of Njord, Freya? This would make sense as Odin's wife Frigga is only connected with a couple of stories, and as Freya's husbond in the late myths was called Od and had disappeared. Frea is often regarded as the background of "frau", which was the role of Frigga, and in the old Origo Gentis Longobardorum Frea was the wife of Wodan.
It is remarkable that no OLB-researcher, as far as I know, from Ottema up to Jensma, has made a real connection with the mythological Freya/ Frea/ Freyja/ Frigga (etc.), nor connected the word "Od" from OLB's creation myth to the "Od" character from mythology. (Or did Overwijn, Abe? I have not read his book.)
Ottema 1876, p.12/13:
Ring as hja rip wêron krêjon hja früchda ånd nochta anda drâma Wr.aldas.
Od* trâd to-ra binna:
ånd nw bârdon ek twilif svna ånd twilif togathera ek joltid twên.
Thêrof send alle månneska kêmen.
* Ottema's footnote to "Od": Od, wortel van het Lat. odi, ik haat.
Translated: Od, root of the Lat[in] Odi, I hate.
Zoodra zij volwassen waren, kregen zij vermaak en genoegen in de droomen van Wralda.
Haat trad tot haar binnen.
En nu baarden zij elk twaalf zonen en twaalf dochteren, elke juultijd een paar.
Daarvan zijn alle menschen gekomen.
Sandbach 1876, ch.13:
As soon as they were full grown they took pleasure and delight in the visions of Wr-alda.
Hatred found its way among them.
They each bore twelve sons and twelve daughters — at every Juul-time a couple.
Thence come all mankind.
As I have argued before in this thread, as well as in a video, these translations are wrong.
(In the original it says: "... drâma. Wr.aldas Od..."; a point before and NOT after "Wr.aldas". And Od will not have meant "hate".)
Most relevant though, is to conclude that 19th century intellectuals were not as omniscient as Abe likes to believe, as no-one ever made the obvious link from this "Od" to Od, Odr, Odin (etc.) from Nordic mythology, often mentioned as Freya's lover or husband.
### Posted 28 February 2011 - 05:53 AM
Alewyn, on 28 February 2011 - 04:57 AM, said:
In short, the “Middel Sea” was the “Mediterranean” which should now be abundantly clear to everybody.
Abundantly clear indeed. Thanks Alewyn.
Finding ever more links between the our 'Frisians' or 'Fryans' and the 'Danes' or 'Heruli'(?).
It will take me some time to digest all of it, but can't wait to share some of the goodies with the forum.
Here's one, again from: "The Heruls" by Troels Brandt (page 109):
Finally the basical myths of the religion are supposed to be developed in a much older pagan environment, where no one would be expected to read antique historians and combine them in that way. The picture-stones at Gotland indicate that antique legends were known early, but not necessarily from books. Dudo confirmed only 40 years after Denmark was officially baptized, that the Danes boasted of Greek ancestors, so already at that time the Dacian tradition was well established without any connection with Procopius and his Heruls. Thus Snorri did not invent the southeastern connection. On the contrary his explanations and different versions show doubt in his mind about the Troy-legend, but not about men from the region of Tanais becoming kings of Scandinavia.
### Posted 28 February 2011 - 08:56 AM
Abramelin, on 27 February 2011 - 08:32 PM, said:
I think you all will find the next website of interest:
Homer's North Atlantic Odyssey?
http://codexceltica.blogspot.nl/2009/10/homers-north-atlantic-odyssey.html
That particular page deals with theories about Homer/Iliad/Odyssey in the north, and about Atlantis in the north.
It's sort of a summary of all those theories, with the necessary discussion/critique, of course.
Of interest indeed, thanks!
Here's a selection of some (imo) relevant fragments.
(Also see my next post.)
The opposing interpretation would be that the entire genesis of the original, ur-Odyssey was northern-European, deriving from proto-Celtic/-Germanic or other early Nordic seafaring peoples. This is how the Iliad ends up being given an entirely northern interpretation, for it makes more sense in terms of fitting the idea of a Nordic origin for the epic than does the Odyssey, whose voyage begins with known places in the Med. One literary-transmission theory is that early Greek sailors might have come for long-distance trade in tin etc, and also took this wonderful epic tale back with them, transforming it into a national epic when it was written up in verse. If the northern peoples preferred not to write out their compositions, relying on prodigious feats of memory (as Caesar said of the Keltic bards), over time the original northern version could have been lost in wars and migrations. Another north-to-south literary-transmission theory is that the northern tribes were the ‘Sea Peoples’ mentioned in Egyptian records who swept south to attack Greece and Egypt around 1200 BC, obliterating the earlier Greeks, who assimilated the northerners’ campfire tales and made them their own when they flourished again as a nation after the Greek Dark Ages. Each theory has its proponents.
The second variant of this north-to-south literary-transmission theory can be found in an Italian book suggesting a largely Finnish setting, which got the usual dismissive reception (“Finnish scholars were quick to label it an interesting joke.”) It’s another “northern Troy” book, here arguing for a Scandinavian-Baltic rather than a Celtic-British setting, Troy being identified with Toy or Toija in Finland. The first of author Felice Vinci’s books on the topic, his 1993 Homericus Nuncius, was evidently not translated, but his 2nd, his 1998 Omero nel Baltico was published in English in the US in 2005 as The Baltic Origins Of Homer's Epic Tales: The Iliad, the Odyssey, And The Migration Of Myth.
Vinci is not a Finn, but an Italian nuclear engineer, from Rome, and is not just - as is so often the case - nationalistically promoting his own homeland as the cradle of European civilisation. According to Vinci, Odysseus himself was Dutch. His argument is that a mighty northern Bronze Age civilization invaded the Mediterranean, taking with them their epic tale of a great war in the Baltic, and its sequel, concerning the seafaring wanderings of one survivor between the Gulf of Finland and the Baltic. The place names were adapted into Greek, but the geographical detail simply did not fit the Med.
This is a theory that was foreshadowed in several books by a German pastor, amateur archaeologist and classical scholar, Jurgen Spanuth (1907-98), though his thesis was that these events survive in distorted version not just in Homer but in Plato’s Atlantis parable. Spanuth compared Homer’s and Plato’s descriptions on a point-for-point basis, and suggested both derived from a common origin. This was the rise and fall of a mighty Bronze Age seafaring nation based in and around Jutland, which fell when an ‘Atlantean’ North Sea flood drove them southward into the Med, where the Egyptians defeated these invading ‘Sea Peoples’ in the Nile delta. He refined his thesis in several books also published in English, from Das Entratselte Atlantis, 1953 [Atlantis-The Mystery Unravelled, 1956] through Die Atlanter [Atlantis Of The North, 1976/79], now all out of print. He argued when the Egyptians defeated the Sea Peoples, they recorded their tale of how their empire collapsed in a flood, and Plato’s source his uncle Solon the Lawgiver, picked it up, just as Solon said, on a visit to Egypt, and Solon and then Plato each wrote up a version.
(...)
This controversial north-to-south cultural-transmission theory is centuries older than German nationalism. There had been an attempt centuries before to place the inspiration for Plato’s Atlantis in the Baltic, which was the grandaddy of all these books. In the 17th C, the Swedish allround Renaissance scholar (physician, astronomer, archaeo-historian etc) Olaus or Olof Rudbeck caused consternation with his northern-thesis 4-part, 2,500 page work Atland eller Manheim, translated from Swedish into Latin for scholarly use as Atlantica. This cited linguistic parallels between Swedish, Hebrew etc to claim the oldest district of his home town Uppsala was center of 'lost Atlantis' and thus - by the extravagant logic of cultural diffusion - Sweden was the cradle of western civilisation going back to Adam and Eve.
(...) Like nearly all successful writers in this field, Rudbeck did not simply invent from whole cloth, but drew on still-unresolved mysteries from the past.
Troy is mentioned twice in the OLB, but it does NOT suggest where it might have been. It is therefore possible, that Troy was in eastern England, as Iman Wilkens claims. (I have not read his book.)
Source: East-wall Fryasburch, 1187 BC (OLB orig. pag.75)
[Ottema p.104]
Vmbe-r to fensane hêder fêle skåta mith brocht, boppa ella fâmne syrhêdum, alsa thêr in wralda navt skênener mâkad wrde. Hja kêmon fon Troja en stede tham tha Krêkalandar innimth hêdon.
[Ottema p.105]
Om die te verkrijgen had hij vele schatten medegebracht, bovenal vrouwen sieraden, gelijk er in de wereld niet schooner gemaakt werden. Zij waren afkomstig van Troje, eene stad, die de Krekalanders hadden ingenomen.
[Sandbach p.105]
For this purpose he had brought great treasures with him, above all, jewels for women more beautiful than had ever been seen before. They were from Troy, a town that the Greeks had taken.
Source: anonymus, ca. 0 BC (OLB orig. pag. 199)
[Ottema p.238]
Tha hêinda Krêkalanda håvon vs to fara allêna to hêrath, men sunt vnhüglika tidum håvon ra thêr âk åfterkvmanda fon Lyda ånd fon Finda nitherset, fon tha lersta kêmon to tha lersta en êle hâpe fon Trôje. Trôje alsa heth êne stêde hêten, thêr et folk fon tha fêre Krêkalanda innomth ånd vrhomelt heth. Thâ tha Trôjana to tha hêinda Krêkalandum nestled wêron, tha håvon hja thêr mith tid ånd flit êne sterke stêd mith wâlla ånd burgum bvwed, Rome, that is Rum, hêten.
[Ottema p.239]
De heinde Krekalanden hebben te voren ons alleen toebehoord, maar sedert onheugelijke tijden hebben zich daar ook nakomelingen van Lyda en Finda nedergezet, van deze laatsten kwamen eindelijk een heele hoop van Troje. Troja alzoo heeft eene stad geheeten, die het volk van de verre Krekalanden (Griekenland) heeft ingenomen en verwoest. Toen de Trojanen in de heinde Krekalanden genesteld waren, toen hebben zij daar met tijd en vlijt eene sterke stad met wallen en burgten gebouwd, Rome, dat is Ruim, geheeten.
[Sandbach p.239]
The Krekalanders [sic!] formerly belonged to us only, but from time immemorial descendants of Lyda and Finda have established themselves there. Of these last there came in the end a whole troop from Troy. Troy is the name of a town that the far Krekalanders (Greeks) had taken and destroyed. When the Trojans had nestled themselves among the near Krekalanders, with time and industry they built a strong town with walls and citadels named Rome, that is, Spacious.
Relevant part of Ottema's introduction, translated by Sandbach:
Although a great portion of the first part of the work — the book of Adela — belongs to the mythological period before the Trojan war, there is a striking difference between it and the Greek myths. The Myths have no dates, much less any chronology, nor any internal coherence of successive events. The untrammelled fancy develops itself in every poem separately and independently. The mythological stories contradict each other on every point. "Les Mythes ne se tiennent pas," is the only key to the Greek Mythology. Here, on the contrary, we meet with a regular succession of dates starting from a fixed period — the destruction of Atland, 2193 before Christ. The accounts are natural and simple, often naive, never contradict each other, and are always consistent with each other in time and place. As, for instance, the arrival and sojourn of Ulysses with the Burgtmaagd Kalip at Walhallagara (Walcheren), which is the most mythical portion of all, is here said to be 1005 years after the disappearance of Atland, which coincides with 1188 years before Christ, and thus agrees very nearly with the time at which the Greeks say the Trojan war took place. The story of Ulysses was not brought here for the first time by the Romans. Tacitus found it already in Lower Germany (see " Germania," cap. 3), and says that at Asciburgium there was an altar on which the names of Ulysses and his father Laertes were inscribed.
### Posted 28 February 2011 - 05:48 PM
Abramelin, on 28 February 2011 - 02:31 PM, said:
I am sort of convinced you simply ignore what I have been saying here all along: that several writers worked on the OLB.
Abe, you have suggested several times that you consider the Frisian Joost Halbertsma (1789-1869) to be the mastermind, the main suspect of having created the supposed OLB-hoax.
I invite you to have a look into his mind and then reconsider the plausibility of this.
The following is copied from his publication "LETTERKUNDIGE NAOOGST" (1840), a study of Frisian poetry and literature and the meaning of words (page 138). Translation into English, followed by the original.
Improvised translation
"Tzjerl. The Latin gerulus, a carrier, is like the Germanic carle, Anglosaxon céorle, English churl [tshurl] and this Tjzerl or tzjirl; meaning a man, that by his birth is doomed to carry and tote, or to general land-labour. We already saw that the word with the Anglosaxons and the Frisians had the meaning of a service-man, with or without the prefix hûs. But these huis-kerels, that is, house-servants, became besides fieldworkers, also servants around the house for the landlords and later also for helpers in battle. King Aelfric therefore used the term æcer-céorl, akkerkerel or farmer, as opposed to hûs-cèorl. That's why in medieval Latin hus-carla not only means the man, who is part of the court of a prince or lord, but also the warrior from the court, or one of the bodyguards. Du Cange gave an example where the king gave certain orders to all soldiers of his court, that in Danish are called hûs-carlen. Gabbema (...) shows the tzirlen as meaning fight-mates, and Gysbert uses it in a similar sense like comrade, fellow, loyal mate. The Hollanders say in that same sense "kereltje" to the children, and the Friezen Tzirl to a grown up man. Tzirl is more proud and more masculine than Kereltje. Friesland was the most aristocratic nation of the world, yet so much tempered by democracy, that the farmer calls his landlord Tzerl with the deepest respect. This cultural spirit, still owned by the English, was the result of these peoples being ruled by the ancient duces, mentioned by Tacitus."
Dutch
"Tzjerl. Het Latijnsche gerulus, een drager, staat over tegen het Germaansche carle, Angels, céorle, Eng. churl [tshurl] en dit Tjzerl of tzjirl; duidende dus eigenlijk een man aan, die door zijne geboorte tot dragen en sjouwen, of tot gemeenen veldarbeid, gedoemd is. Wij hebben reeds gezien, dat het woord bij de Angelsaxen en Friezen de beteekenis van zulk eenen dienstman bezat, het zij dan met of zonder vooraanzetting van hûs. Maar die huis-kerels, dat is, huis-knechten, wierden behalve tot den veldarbeid, bij de groote heeren vervolgens ook tot huisdiensten, en eindelijk tot helpers in den strijd gebruikt. Koning Aelfric sprak daarom al van eenen æcer-céorl, akkerkerel of boer, in tegenstelling met een hûs-cèorl. Van daar beteekent in het middeneeuwsch Latijn hus-carla niet alleen den man, die tot den hofstoet van een prins of groot heer behoort, maar ook den krijgsman uit de hofhouding, die tot de lijfwacht behoorde. Du Cange haalt daartoe onder anderen eene plaats aan, waarin de koning aan al de soldaten van zijne huishouding, welke men in het Deensch hûs-carlen noemt, zeker bevel geeft. Bij Gabbema (...) komen de tzirlen dan ook voor als strijdgenooten, en in dergelijken zin van kameraad, beste, trouwe maat, neemt het ook Gysbert. De Hollanders zeggen in dien zelfden zin kereltje tegen de kinders, waarin de Friezen Tzirl tot een volwassen man. Tzirl is deftiger en mannelijker dan Kereltje. Friesland was het aristocratischste land der wereld, doch zoo sterk getemperd door de democratie, dat de boer behoudens de diepste achting zijnen landheer Tzerl noemt. Deze volksgeest, die nog aan de Engelschen eigen is, was het uitvloeisel van het staan dezer volkstammen onder de aloude duces, van welke Tacitus spreekt.
Some conclusions
1)
Halbertsma starts with comparing this Frisian word "Tzjerl" with its counterparts in Latin, Germanic, Anglosaxon and English. He emphatically leaves out the Dutch "Kerel". Later he mentions that the Hollanders call their children "kereltje", but he immediately adds that the Frisian word is so much more masculine and proud.
In the OLB, the version of this word is KERDEL and it is used only twice:
(Fryan) KERDEL = (Dutch) kerel = (German) Kerl = (Swedish) kille = (Frisian) = tzjerl
(the modern English churl has a negative meaning, but apparently in the 19th century it was still a positive term)
Related names: Karel, Karl, Carl, Charles, Carolus, Carlos
transliteration Ottema, 1876:
[p.041] Jahwêder jong kerdel âch en brud to sêka ånd is er fif ånd twintich sa âcht-er en wif to håva.
[p.119] Thâ hja landa hipte-n jong kerdel wal vp. In sina handa hêdi-n skild, thêrvp was bråd åend salt lêid.
Now imagine this Halbertsma, being a proud nationalsist Frisian, who liked to believe that his Frisian language was older than the language of the Hollanders that he must have hated or at least despised so much. And he has a little obsession with this word tzjerl (in his beloved English: churl).
Why would he, writing his political and/or cultural-historical masterpiece use a version of this word that is much closer to the Hollandic KEREL that to his Frisian TZJERL? And he could easily have used this word many times, preferrably in combination with "HûS-", but no, it's only used twice and only in the context of a young man, and hardly as the hard working or brave, proud loyal warrior that he described in his 1840 essay.
2)
He proudly calls Friesland the most aristocratic nation of the world and he does not seem very pleased with the democratic principle. The OLB does not reflect these sentiments at all.
3)
He suggests that the respect that the Frisians and English still have for their landlords stems from the time of the DUCES from the Roman times (reminds me of Mussolini LOL). How do you think the Folkmothers and the free fryans from the OLB would have felt about those 'duces'? That was a rhetorical question indeed.
So, in this short sample, there's already three reasons to dismiss the theory that Halbertsma would have been involved in the creation of the OLB.
Even über-hoaxtheorist Jensma did not consider Halbertsma a serious candidate for the job.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
And no, I didn't recieve news about the paper and ink study yet.
Don't worry, you'll know only a few hours later than me.
### Posted 28 February 2011 - 06:02 PM
Otharus, on 28 February 2011 - 05:48 PM, said:
(Fryan) KERDEL = (Dutch) kerel = (German) Kerl = (Swedish) kille = (Frisian) = tzjerl = (English) churl?
This reminds me of a realization I had earlier ~ ~ ~
An important and obvious reason why the most powerful members of the 19th century proud nationalist Frisian nobility (and their followers) so fanatically rejected the Oera Linda-book is this:
The language of the OLB is too much like Hollandic, which is more like Westfrisian and Flemmish (or Nethersaxon) and not enough like their beloved Frysk (or the East-Frisian 'dialect').
### Posted 01 March 2011 - 07:29 AM
Alewyn, on 28 February 2011 - 06:51 PM, said:
The word that is causing the confusion is "westwards". In my book I suggested that this may have been a transcription error, but it is anybody's guess.
It's not confusing, nor an error.
If from Holland you follow the coast (south-) westwards (as most Frisians would have done to go there), the Middel(-landic) Sea starts at the Strait of Gibraltar; the utter west part of the Middelsea a.k.a. Mediterranean. I explained this four months ago and showed this on a map for the ones who have never seen a map of Europe before.
Otharus, on 25 October 2010 - 05:49 PM, said:
East; utter east of Gulf of Finland
West; utter west of Mediterranean
So basically the whole coastline from East Estonia to Southern Spain.
Otharus, on 25 October 2010 - 06:42 PM, said:
### Posted 01 March 2011 - 07:31 AM
Alewyn, on 28 February 2011 - 07:09 PM, said:
You forgot to mention that he was also a church minister albeit not a very succesful one. Why would he have attempted to start a new religion (The reason given by Jensma for Haverscmidt) and then only when he was already 78 years old. The OLB manuscript appeared 2 years before his death.
There's an abundance of reasons why he could not have done it.
I hope you're not asking me to give all of them.
Quote
Not even Ottema considered him as a possible "hoaxer".
Ottema did not consider anyone a possible hoaxer.
Why would he waste his time with that?
He knew OLB had to be authentic and he was right.
### Posted 01 March 2011 - 07:32 AM
Abramelin, on 28 February 2011 - 07:50 PM, said:
you must have ignored what I said about Halbertsma loving the Rüstringer dialect. And THAT is where he got that word, "kerdel" from.
That dictionary does not even say Kerdel is Rustringian, it's vaguely referring to it.
The whole dictonary only has this one reference to "Kerdel", but 86 times "Kerel", which must have been the Rostringian version, so just like Hollandic.
There's many Rüstringer words that are completely different in OLB. Get over it.
Ok, I'll give just one beautiful example of how OLB is more like the western varieties of Frisian that the eastern ones.
Rostringer: ESKRIUIN
OLB shows different varieties, but not one single time the Rostringer variety.
If Halbertsma made the OLB, and if he loved Rostringian, he would surely have added that variety too.
OLB, original pagenumbers
SKREEVEN (Hidde, Liko, p.44,45,46,68, etc.; this variety is most common!)
SKREEVVEN (Hidde)
ASKRIVEM (p.4)
ASKRYWEN (p.5)
ESKREEVEN (p.47,53)
(N.B. synonym: WRYT/WRIT)
English = written
Dutch: geschreven
Afrikaans: geskryf
German: geschrieben
Danish = skrevet
Current Westfrisian (North-Holland): skreeven!!!
(I grew up in the area where this dialect is still spoken)
Quote
I have posted stuff that helped you all in your firm belief in the OLB.
Why is that? Because I have nothing to defend, I am investigating.
No that's not why.
If you could find stuff that would help you in your belief you would rather post that instead.
It is because it's much easier to find proof that OLB is authentic, than that it is a hoax.
Why that is? Because OLB is authentic and not a hoax.
### Posted 01 March 2011 - 07:34 AM
Abramelin, on 28 February 2011 - 07:21 PM, said:
I have explained about possible motives of Halbertsma, I have mentioned his love for the Rustringer dialect...
I suppose you got this from Menno Knul, but where did he get it from? I can't find anything to support this.
Second, and more importantly, the language of OLB is not at all more similar to this Rustringer dialect than to other Old-Frisian dialects from the time of the Christenings. I have the strong impression that Fryan is way more like old-Westfrisian (no, not Westerlauwers Frysk) and old-Nethersaxon, something Halbertsma would have hated, just like Beckering Vinkers c.s. did. But we'd need a linguist who is not emotionally attached to this to sort this out.
I'm sorry for this librarian Menno Knul because he must have worked like a monk, but I can't take him seriously.
### Posted 01 March 2011 - 07:37 AM
Alewyn, on 28 February 2011 - 08:56 PM, said:
Otharus is the first one who agrees with me on occasion but even he hasn't given my book any credit in public.
Maybe I don't know what "giving credit" means where you live.
I think I'm one of the few here who actually paid for his copy of your book, and it was good value for my money.
Furthermore, I have:
- complimented you several times;
Example 20 october: Congratulations Alewyn with the treasure you put together!
- quoted from your book and defended it, for example recently your Frisland theory
- provided you with plenty of ammo to defend yourself from skeptics
- worked like a madman giving you and other researchers on this forum (that started with discussing your book) access to Dutch sources by translating them (and improving existing OLB translations), so you can write even better books about it in the future (which I hope you will).
As far as I know, you are the first one to "prove" OLB authentic in an English book, but it BEGS for improvement.
You might already be working on that.
The best credit I can give you today is that your book inspired this discussion, for which I am most grateful.
We have made a lot of progress already. We can all give eachother credit, but what good is that for?
If there's anyone who deserves credit here (posthumously), it's Jan Ottema.
### Posted 01 March 2011 - 07:39 AM
Abramelin, on 01 March 2011 - 02:54 AM, said:
I didn't say that at all.
OK, maybe you should read the pdf (photocopy) instead.
That was the only reference to "kerdel" in the pdf-file you linked to.
It doesn't say that "kerdel" is Rustringian, that would be "kerel", just like in dutch, as said.
### Posted 02 March 2011 - 06:29 PM
Frana's prophecy ~ fragment (591 BC)
1. OLB original manuscript p.83-84, as translitterated by Ottema
2. Ottema (1876) p.115-117, with suggested corrections
3. Sandbach (1876) p.115-117, with suggested corrections
Vndera tydum that Aldland svnken is,
In de tijden, dat Atland [Aldland] verzonken is,
At the time of the submersion of Atland [Aldland],
stand thju forma spêke fon thet Jol an top.
stond de eerste spaak van het Juul [Jol] in top.
the first spoke of the Juul [Jol] stood at the top.
Thêrnêi is hju del gvngon ånd vsa frydom mith tham.
Daarna is zij nedergegaan en onze vrijheid met haar.
After that it went down, and our freedom with it.
(...)
Alle wla skêdnese tham forsunnen send
Alle vuile geschiedenissen, die verzonnen zijn
All the stories [pseudohistories] that have been written [made up]
vmbe tha forsta ånd prestera to boga,
om de vorsten en priesteren te roemen,
in praise of the princes and priests
skilun an logha ofred wertha.
zullen aan de vlam geofferd worden.
shall be committed [offered] to the flames.
Forth skilun al thinra bern mith frêtho lêva.
Voortaan zullen alle uwe kinderen in vrede leven.
Thenceforth [all] your children shall live in peace.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Frana thought each spoke of the wheel represented a 1000 years.
Could it be 700?
### Posted 03 March 2011 - 06:02 PM
Alewyn, on 03 March 2011 - 12:35 PM, said:
From my iterpretation of Hettema's description of Halbertsma, the latter was a man of integrity. He loved the Frisian language and tried to rekindle it. He translated work from other languages into contemporary Frisian. He however did not hide this fact as you would like to insinuate. He was quite open about it that he borrowed his work from other languages. See above "The most difficult in this was to find pieces,"
Well done Alewyn, both translation and conclusion.
### Posted 04 March 2011 - 03:09 AM
Abramelin, on 03 March 2011 - 08:48 PM, said:
I am getting really very curious about the results of the research done on the OLB.
I don't know if you are still in India, but if you want I can try to call the Koninklijke Bibliotheek ("Royal Library") and ask them about it.
If you are ok with that, then please send me their telephone number in a pm.
I live in 'Sweatlake City', and I can even travel from there to The Hague, but you will have to inform me about your contact with them.
Thanks for the offer. I'm curious too, but not impatient.
I understand and respect that they need some (extra) time to put their finds (and their consequences) into (diplomatic?) words.
If the outcome would have been that it's as old as was always believed by the mainstream, an article with that conclusion would have been an easy job...
I will email my contact again and gently ask for news, today or tomorrow. I know how it is with deadlines. He promised to inform me so I will give him some space.
Something you could do though, is go and have a look at that information about Pharismanes. That could be very interesting for the forum too.
Abramelin, on 17 February 2011 - 08:35 PM, said:
Pharismanes is Friso
Project Genetische Genealogie in Nederland (haplotype i). De auteur meent dat Friezen één gezamenlijke voorvader kennen; de Perzische edelman Pharismanes. Germanen kunnen op grond van die volksnaam uit dezelfde voorvaders stammen. De publicatie is verkrijgbaar voor 10 euro bij de auteur of in te zien op een van onderstaande locaties:
...
Kon. Bibl. Den Haag
### Posted Yesterday, 08:01 AM
Abramelin, on 05 March 2011 - 06:47 PM, said:
The OLB talks about lots of things, and in a lot of detail, but never do we read anything about megalithic structures, or how they were constructed.
The first text that was copied to be saved in 'the book of Adela's followers', is the "Forma Skêdnise", the "Earliest History" (Ottema/Sandbach p.10-13, original p.5-6, see below, few corrections added).
This obviously is a pseudo- (or fantasy based) history (or as the Fryans themselves would say, an wla skêdnese).
It is suggested that Frya and her two 'sisters' were the first people, that before them there was nothing. It's not much less than a deification, something she would not have liked herself as indicated by her own Tex.
What were the post-deluvian Fryans trying to hide and forget, in the 49th year of Fåsta's 'reign'?
Who was Frya really, was she a historical mother at all?
Is the Frya of the 'earliest history' ment to be a different (earlier) one then the one who wrote the Tex and drowned in the flood?
Who was/were the father(s) of Frya's children really and who were her parents?
Did she indeed have a twin-brother as some of the Nordic mythology suggests?
If the Fryans believed that Wr.alda alone was the bisittar of loft, wêter, lând ånd fjur (Tex Fryas #5, p.12 of original), that Wralda controlled the elements, why - in their perception - would he have caused the Great Flood? Was it a punishment for something? Had they done something wrong?
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Thit stand vppa tha wâgum et Fryasburch to Texland askrywen, thåt stêt âk to Stâvia ånd to Mêdêas blik.
Dit stond op de wanden der Fryasburg te Texland geschreven, dat staat ook te Stavia, ook te Medeasblik.
This was inscribed upon the walls of Fryasburg in Texland, as well as at Stavia and Medeasblik.
Thåt was Frya his dêi ånd to thêre stonde was et vrlêden sjvgun wâra sjvgun jêr, thåt Fåsta was anståld as folksmoder nêi Fryas jêrta.
Het was Fryasdag en te dier tijd was het zeven maal zeven jaren geleden, dat Festa was aangesteld als volksmoeder, naar Fryas begeerte.
It was Frya's day, and [at that time] seven times seven years had elapsed since Festa was appointed Volksmoeder [Folksmother] by the desire of Frya.
Thju burch Mêdêasblik was rêd ånd en fâm was kêren. Nw skolde Fåsta thju nêja foddik vpstêka, ånd thâ thåt dên was an åjnwarda fon thåt folk,
De burgt Medeasblik was gereed en eene maagd [fam] was gekozen. Nu zoude Festa hare nieuwe lamp opsteken, en toen dat gedaan was in tegenwoordigheid van het volk,
The citadel of Medeasblik was ready, and a Burgtmaagd [Fam] was chosen. Festa was about to light her new lamp, and when she had [that was] done so in the presence of all the people,
thâ hrop Frya fon hira wâkståre, sâ thåt allera månnalik thåt hêra machte: Fåsta nim thinra stifte ånd writ tha thinga thêr ik êr navt sedsa ne machte.
toen riep Frya van hare waakstar, zoodat iedereen het hooren konde: Festa neem uwe stift en schrijf de dingen, die ik [eerder] niet zeggen mocht.
Frya called from her watch-star, so that every one could hear it: "Festa, take your style and write the things, that I may not speak [could not say earlier]."
Fåsta dêde alsa hja boden wårth. Sâ send wy Fryas bårn an vsa forma skêdnise kêmen.
Festa deed alzoo als haar geboden was. Zoo zijn wij Fryas kinderen aan onze vroegste geschiedenis gekomen.
Festa [Fåsta] did as she was bid, and thus we became Frya's children, and [begot] our earliest history began.
Thåt is vsa forma skêdnise.
Dit is onze vroegste geschiedenis.
This is our earliest history.
Wr.alda tham allêna god ånd êvg is, mâkade t.anfang, dana kêm tid, tid wrochte alle thinga âk jrtha. Jrtha bârde alle gârsa, krûdon ånd boma, allet djara kwik ånd allet årge kwik.
Wralda, die alleen goed en eeuwig is maakte den aanvang, alsdan kwam de tijd, de tijd wrochte alle dingen, en ook de aarde, de aarde baarde alle gras, kruiden en boomen, al het liefelijk gedierte en al het booze gedierte.
Wr-alda, who alone is eternal and good, made the beginning. Then commenced time. Time wrought all things, even the earth. The earth bore grass, herbs, and trees, all useful and all noxious animals.
Alhwat god ånd djar is, brocht hju by dêgum ånd alhwat kwâd ånd årg is, brocht hju thes nachtis forth. Afteret twilifte jol-fêrste bârde hja thrja mangêrta.
Alles wat goed en liefelijk is, bragt zij bij dag voort, en alles wat boos en kwaad is, bragt zij bij nacht voort. Na het twaalfde Juulfeest bragt zij voort drie maagden:
All that is good and useful she brought forth by day, and all that is bad and injurious by night. After the twelfth Juulfeest she brought forth three maidens:
Lyda wårth ut glyande, Finda wårth ut hêta ånd Frya ut warme stof.
Lyda uit gloeijende stof, Finda uit heete stof, en Frya uit warme stof.
Lyda out of fierce heat. [glowing,] Finda out of strong heat. [hot,] Frya out of moderate heat [warm matter].
... etcetera
### Posted Yesterday, 08:02 AM
Otharus, on 06 March 2011 - 08:01 AM, said:
It is suggested that Frya and her two 'sisters' were the first people, that before them there was nothing. It's not much less than a deification, something she would not have liked herself as indicated by her own Tex.
In the OLB there are three examples of negative sentiments about deification, and still this is exactly what happened, first with Frya, later with Wodin, Neph-Tunis, Min-erva/ (Ny-) Hellenia all the way up to Jesus of Nazareth or Christ.
Defication Wodin
[Ottema/ Sandbach p.79/ orig. p.55]
Wodin (...) Sin rik hilde sjvgun jêr, thâ vrdwind-ir.
Wodin (...) Zijn rijk duurde zeven jaren, toen verdween hij.
Wodin (...) His reign lasted seven years, and then he disappeared.
Thene Mâgy sêide that-er mong hjara godon vpnimeth wêre,
De Magy zeide dat hij onder hunne goden was opgenomen,
The Magy said that he was taken up by their gods
ånd that hi fon thêr over hjam welda,
en dat hij van daar over hen heerschte,
and still reigned over us [from there],
men vs folk lakton vmbe tin tâl.
maar ons volk lachte om zijne taal.
but our people laughed at what they said.
Defication Tünis
[Ottema/ Sandbach p.97/ orig. p.69]
Thi kåning was fon Tünis ofstamed,
De koning was een afstammeling van Teunis,
The king was a descendant of Teunis,
sâ wi lêter hêrdon,
gelijk wij later hoorden.
as we were afterwards informed [heard later];
men til thju tha prestera en kåning wilde håve
Maar omdat de priesters een koning wilden hebben,
but as the priests wished to have a king,
thêr alderlangne nêi hjara bigrip wêre,
die daar naar hun begrip van overlang was (?)
who, according to their ideas, was of long descent,
alsa hêde hja Tünis to en gode up hêjad,
hadden zij Teunis tot een God verheven,
they deified Teunis,
to årgnisse sinra folgar.
tot ergernis van zijne volgers.
to the vexation of his followers.
Defication Hellênja or Minerva
[Ottema/ Sandbach p.101/ orig. p.72]
Thâ Hellênja jefta Minerva sturven was,
Toen Hellenia of Minerva gestorven was,
When Hellenia or Min-erva [had] died,
tha bâradon tha prestera as jef hja mith vs wêron,
hielden de priesters zich als of zij met ons waren,
the priests pretended to be with us,
til thju that hel blika skolde
en opdat zulks duidelijk blijken zoude,
and in order to make it appear so,
havon hja Hellênia to-ne godene ute kêth.
hebben zij Hellenia tot eene Godin uitgeroepen.
they deified Hellenia.
(...)
Men wi nildon Minerva navt as êne godene navt bikånna,
Maar wij wilden Minerva niet als eene Godin erkennen,
But we would not recognise Min-erva as a goddess,
nêidam hja selva seid hêde
naardien zij zelve ons gezegd had,
because she herself had told us
that nimman god jefta fvlkvma wêsa ne kvnde thån Wr.aldas gâst.
dat niemand goed of volkomen kon wezen, als Wraldas geest.
that no one could be perfectly good except the spirit of Wr-alda.
### Posted Yesterday, 10:06 AM
Otharus, on 06 March 2011 - 08:01 AM, said:
It is suggested that Frya and her two 'sisters' were the first people, that before them there was nothing. It's not much less than a deification, something she would not have liked herself as indicated by her own Tex.
How the lie lived forth...
(Indirect) references to the "Forma Skêdnise" further in the OLB.
1) in book Apol-lânja Oera-Linda
[Ottema/ Sandbach p.143, original p.103]
Trâst thêr fâm wêre to Stavia (...) sêide
Troost, die Maagd was te Stavia (...) zeide:
Troost, who was the maid of Stavia (...) said,
Thâ Frya bern was, stand vs moder naked ånd blât, vnbihod to jenst tha strêlum thêre svnne.
toen Frya geboren was, stond onze moeder naakt en bloot, onbehoed tegen de stralen der zon.
When Frya was born, our mother stood naked and bare, unprotected from the rays of the sun.
Ninman macht hju frêja ånd thêr wêre ninman thêr hja help macht lêna.
Niemand kon zij vragen, en er was niemand, die haar hulp verleenen konde.
She could ask no one, and there was no one who could give her any help.
Thâ gvng Wr.alda to ånd wrochte in hjra mod nigung ånd liavde anggost ånd skrik.
Toen ging Wralda heen en wrocht in haar gemoed neiging en liefde, angst en schrik.
Then Wr-alda wrought in her conscience inclination and love, anxiety and fright.
2) in book Frêtho-rik Oera-Linda
[Ottema/ Sandbach p.159, original p.115]
Thi Mâgy bogade vppa sinra snôdhêd.
De Magy verhief zich op zijne slimheid.
The Magy prided himself upon his cunning,
Men Irtha skold im thâna, thåt hja nên Mâgy ner afgoda to lêta ne mochte
Maar Irtha zoude hem toonen, dat zij geen Magy noch afgoden mocht toelaten
but Irtha made him know that she would not tolerate any Magy or idol
to thêre hêlge skêta, hwêrut hju Frya bêrade.
tot de heilige schoot, waaruit zij Frya baarde.
on the holy bosom [?] that had borne Frya.
3) in Letter from Rika the Ald-fâm
[Ottema/ Sandbach p.231, original p.191]
Tha hja vrjettath, that Frya bern bêrde svnder jengong ênis mån.
Doch zij vergeten, dat Frya kinderen baarde zonder toegang eens mans.
but they forget that Frya bore children without having intercourse with a man.
1) I have not yet recieved news from the Royal Library about the paper and ink examination.
Abramelin, on 20 July 2010 - 12:00 PM, said:
Delehaye wanted to prove that most of the history of The Netherlands between 0 and 1000 AD didn't even take place there, but more to the south, in Belgium and northern France (...)
2) In the last few weeks I have explored some of the 'Frisian' history of the early middle ages (before 1000), and came to the conclusion that at least some of alternative historian Albert Delahaye's theories must be right, which would have major consequences for Dutch traditional historiography.
In case the reader had not noticed yet, Dutch 'established history' (of the scholars) smells bad, so bad that I more-and-more understand how most people who find out some of the truth stay silent and maybe don't even want to think about it anymore, because it's so depressing.
I don't know where to start, so I'll just start with something that I consider to be an important clue to a better understanding (for whoever is interested and has a strong stomach).
The following is an improvised translation (by me, with some added notes in bold) from:
http://www.ijpelaan.nl/Archief/Kennemerland/Vroeg-Willibrord.html
"1. Willibrord's mission
The Benedictine Willibrord preached the Fresen from 690 till his death in 739. Before him others preached the Fresen. Under king Dagobert, early seventh century, there was already a church in Trajectum according to St. Victor. In Fresia, Richardus ca. 600 founded the Centula abbey, and half a century later there is the abbey of St. Bertijn in St.-Omaars. Also Eloy, bishop of Noyon and Doornik (French Tournai), in the center of the Frankish empire, preached the Fresen, like Amandus, Wilfried of York, Wigbert, Suitbert and Wulfram. These data evidently belong to French-Flandres and are ignored in [Dutch] traditionalist historiography.
Alcuinis, the first biographer of Willibrord and writer for Charles the Great, describes how Willibrord arrived in the mouths of the Renus (Scheldt) and went to Trajectum (Tournehem). Theofried of Echternach, his later biographer, litteraly says that it was in the harbor of Gravalinge (Grevelingen, French Gravelines), near Trajectum in Fresia. The two don't contradict, as classical writers said that the Renus flowed into the sea where Brittannia could be seen."
=> Renus is not Rhine, but Scheldt
=> Trajectum is not Utrecht, but Tournehem
"Willibrord himself in 728 writes in his calendar that he arrived in Francia from overseas in 690. After he became bishop of the Fresen (Flemmish) in 695, he builds a little church for St. Martinus in Traiectum (Tournehem). After twenty years Willibrord has to move for Radbod, king of the Fresen; after that he can return to the area of his mission. According to the Cartularium of Radboud, the last bishop of Trajectum, the monastery that was built near the walls of Traiectum (Tournehem) and that was ruled by archbishop Willibrord, in 722 receives all benefits of the Traiectum (Tournehem) domain and the lands of Greveningo (Grevelingen) from Karel Martel."
=> These "Fresen" lived in West-Flandres (north-west Francia).
"Willibrord dies in 739 in the monastery of Aefternacum (Eperlecques) that he had built himself. (...)
His biographies reveal that Willibrord operated in a relatively small area. According to later interpretations he worked along the coast of Denmark, deep in Germany, in the Netherlands, Belgium and the north of France.
The territorial lists of the diocese Trajectum contains hundreds of toponyms from the area of Tournehem and Eperlecques; in that of the Aefternacum abbey there's hundreds of the same area. It cannot be argued why they would include a few individual toponyms from Kennemerland, Holland or Brabant, as was always done in [Dutch] traditionalist historiography.
At excavations in Utrecht, besides Roman remains, nothing noteworthy was found from before the tenth century, and one can hardly claim that Echternach was built near the walls of Utrecht."
=> Aefternacum is not Echternach, but Eperlecques.
"If Willibrord had both his abbey and his diocese in French-Flandres, how did his story move to Echternach, Kennemerland and Utrecht?"
NOTE: improved version as well as following paragraphs, see below.
### Posted 04 February 2011 - 07:19 PM
Otharus, on 04 February 2011 - 07:11 PM, said:
... at least some of alternative historian Albert Delahaye's theories must be right, which would have major consequences for Dutch traditional historiography.
Before I continue with the translation, the following is copied from:
http://albertdelahaye.nl/index.php?english
1. Charlemagne had no links with Nijmegen
Albert Delahaye presented a set of hypotheses that were contrary to long-held ideas about the history of Nijmegen and that of the Low Countries in general.
Regarding Nijmegen, Albert Delahaye questioned the received wisdom that Charlemagne had build a palace there. This is a blatant heresy in the eyes of official Nijmegen, bearing such epithets as "Keizerstad" or "Emperor's town".
According to received tradition, Charlemagne maintained a palace in Nijmegen.
This palace was supposed to have been situated on the Valkhof hill, the highest point in modern Nijmegen, where visitors are shown its alleged ruins. Charlemagne, the emperor, again according to standard accepted history, would have sojourned at this palace on his travels through his empire.
The location of Nijmegen would have been an important symbol in support of Charlemagne and the myths that followed him, as it had been a border town at the northern frontier of the Roman Empire with a market and a garrison.
A part of the story of the palace was that Vikings came and took it for the winter in the year 880. It's not true, said Delahaye. The palace was not there. There's no trace of it. (Those ruins are from two different periods, a few centuries later.)
(...)
6. Willibrord and Bonifatius were never in The Netherlands
Willibrord, Archeveque of Tournehem, Bonifatius marter of the French
In Nijmegen Albert Delahaye started his study about Charlemagne and the "Valkhof". In that period (1946-1950) he considered only Charlemagne and he did at that time not know that most of the history of The Netherland from 250 till 1050 was displaced.
Progressing from his initial findings, Delahaye found each following year more evidence about historical displacements affecting the history of the Netherlands. A number of key facts from its history are plainly wrong. What happened according to him was this: when the sea level had sufficiently fallen, the people living in Northern France and Belgium started to migrate to the North and, and having settled first in the south of the present Netherlands, continued later further North and NorthWestwards. The places where they settled and the rivers they encountered were named after the locales and streams where they had lived before.
After the displacement of the names followed the displacement of the facts and stories that originated in the ?old? country. These facts and stories were transposed in the Middle Ages to "Holland" by historical chroniclers, commissioned by important persons, e.g. a ruler. Writer and artist were paid to produce a good looking manuscript, where facts were mixed with heroic tales, as the aim was to aggrandise the ruler.
A good example is the double displacements of St. Willibrord and St. Bonifatius who were claimed in the 13th century by Dutch historian Melis Stoke as apostles to the Netherlands and localised respectively in Utrecht and Dokkum (Friesland) Again, historically impossible as both places did not exist at the time these clerics lived.
Facts: St Willibrord, bishop of Trajectum, present day Tournehem, in 695.
(...)
Bonifatius was murdered near the river Burdina, present Bourre. The placename Dokkum is erroneously derived from Dockynchirica? Dunkirk.
What do the French say about these saints? They consider them of an entirely local character and statues of St. Willibrord and St. Bonifatius are often seen in local churches in the region of Northern France, their main mission field.
### Posted 05 February 2011 - 06:23 AM
Abramelin, on 04 February 2011 - 07:23 PM, said:
Yep, I have read a lot about Albert Delahaye's theory, and that for years.
(...)
But although those Dunkerque Transgressions took place, Delahaye has been proven wrong many times by archeological finds.
(...)
Now the only supporters left are those who think in 'conspiracries to hide the truth'...
Talking and making up ideas is rather easy, digging and sweating to find remants of thousands of years ago is not so easy.
Some of Delahayes theories may have been proven wrong, he had many. He did an incredible lot of research of the original sources and did not just copy what other 'historians' had written before. If some of his revolutionary theories were wrong that does not have to mean they all were. (Can you link to any serious research report that disproves all of his theories? No, I know you cannot.)
For now let's just focus on the Willibrord theory, that has been re-presented by IJpelaan whose version I started translating.
Can you and the other Dutch/ Flemmish/ Afrikaans readers (Jelle, Alewyn?) read the whole article already and then tell me if there's anything wrong with it?
Here's the link again:
http://www.ijpelaan.nl/Archief/Kennemerland/Vroeg-Willibrord.html
The author of this site does not qualify as a "supporter who thinks in 'conspiracries to hide the truth'" and who is just "talking and making up ideas". (FYI: he believes OLB is a hoax.)
### Posted 05 February 2011 - 02:05 PM
Translation "2. Eperlecques and Echternach" => improved version below
### Posted 05 February 2011 - 06:34 PM
Abramelin, on 05 February 2011 - 04:32 PM, said:
You better start with saying why you want to talk about Delahaye's theories, in connection with the OLB that is.
Otharus, on 04 February 2011 - 07:11 PM, said:
In the last few weeks I have explored some of the 'Frisian' history of the early middle ages (before 1000), and came to the conclusion that at least some of alternative historian Albert Delahaye's theories must be right, which would have major consequences for Dutch traditional historiography.
Like you said before, to understand OLB -and its reception- it is vital to understand a bit of the Dutch/ Frisian tradition of (pseudo-) historiography.
Lifting a tip of the veil:
Forana (OLB) ~ Veurne (North Francia) ~ Vronen (West Frisia)
Texland (OLB) ~ Texandrie (North Francia) ~ Texel (West Frisia)
Etcetera. More about this later.
For now I will focus on the Willibrord/ Trajectum story.
Once that is sorted out, we can make a big step forward.
### Posted 06 February 2011 - 02:42 AM
Abramelin, on 05 February 2011 - 04:32 PM, said:
http://www.ijpelaan.nl/Archief/Kennemerland/Tegen-Bijsterveld.html#albe
I wonder why you posted this link, because it gives overwhelming evidence that Delahaye is RIGHT.
His theory was not only based on the Duinkerke Transgressions, but (also) on thorough research of original sources. Some details of his theory may have been wrong, I have not read all of it, but enough of it is right (at least about Betuwe, Dorestad, Nijmegen, Utrecht, Dokkum, Almere), which would already have immense consequences for traditional dutch historiography.
[...]
As for BUDA, I showed that Godfrey Higgins said it means wisdom (which may still be true in other traditions). You showed that elsewhere in the OLB it means something like sack. Fair enough but still BUDA is not an example of a ridiculous etymology that would prove OLB is a hoax. People in 600 BC will also have had a sense of imagination and homor.
### Posted 06 February 2011 - 10:12 AM
Demasking the Dutch 'Willibrord myth' is relevant because it shows how and why the history of 8th century Frisia in West Flandres/ North France was relocated to 12th century Westfriesland/ Holland/ Utrecht.
(After I have translated and presented the proof I will explain this further.)
Translation "3. 1156: Echternach claims churches ..." => improved version below
### Posted 07 February 2011 - 07:21 AM
translation: "4. Willibrord is relocated to Holland" => improved version below
- - - - - -
This is what Wikipedia says about bishop Willibrord of Trajectum:
"Saint Willibrord (c. 658 – November 7, 739) was a Northumbrian missionary, known as the "Apostle to the Frisians" in the modern Netherlands. He became the first Bishop of Utrecht and died at Echternach, Luxembourg."
Is there anyone who, after having read the 4 parts of my translation, still believes the myth that is re-presented by Wikipedia?
1) Willibrord's Trajectum is Tournehem, not Utrecht.
2) Willibrord's Aefternacum is Eperlecques, not Echternach.
3) Willibrord's Fresen lived in West Flandres, not in Holland.
### Posted 08 February 2011 - 02:11 AM
Abramelin, on 08 February 2011 - 12:42 AM, said:
Linguistically speaking, that is nonsense.
That is a firm statement.
Please explain.
Which part of IJpelaan's article on Willibrord do you disagree with?
Does his reasoning have any flaw?
Or is there any part that you don't understand?.
(You can also refer to the original untranslated version if that's easier.)
### Posted 08 February 2011 - 02:27 AM
Otharus, on 07 February 2011 - 07:21 AM, said:
1) Willibrord's Trajectum is Tournehem, not Utrecht.
2) Willibrord's Aefternacum is Eperlecques, not Echternach.
3) Willibrord's Fresen lived in West Flandres, not in Holland.
Let me rephrase this:
In the original texts about Willibrord, his abbey, diocese and monastery (from before Echternach's claims):
1) Trajectum referred to what is now Tournehem-sur-la-Hem, not to Utrecht.
2) Aefternacum referred to what is now Éperlecques, not to Echternach.
3) Fresen refer to people who lived in what is now West Flandres and the North-West of France, not in Holland, Westfriesland, Kennemerland or Utrecht.
### Posted 08 February 2011 - 09:28 AM
Otharus, on 06 February 2011 - 10:12 AM, said:
Demasking the Dutch 'Willibrord myth' is relevant because it shows how and why the history of 8th century Frisia in West Flandres/ North France was relocated to 12th century Westfriesland/ Kennemerland/ Holland/ Utrecht.
Understanding this is vital for anyone who wants to explore and interpret the (reception of the) Oera Linda-book and/or old-Frisian (pseudo-) historiography.
Therefore, once more - complete and improved - my improvised translation (with notes between [...]) of the most relevant parts of:
http://www.ijpelaan.nl/Archief/Kennemerland/Vroeg-Willibrord.html
(see separate post)
### Posted 08 February 2011 - 09:36 AM
Abramelin, on 08 February 2011 - 02:41 AM, said:
What do you know of the Alans in the Netherlands?? According to the huge poem written by Willem van Haren (1741, based on older Frisian myths), the land that was named "Friesland" (after Friso) was formerly called "Land der Alanen" ('Land of the Alans'). Again according to that poem, they lived near the 'northern branch of the Rhine' (= the IJssel river).
http://www.gedevasen.dk/heruls.pdf
That PDF-file seems very interesting. Thanks!
I'll read it but it may take a while and I still would like to settle the Willibrord dossier first.
### Posted 09 February 2011 - 06:12 AM
Otharus, on 08 February 2011 - 09:28 AM, said:
Understanding this is vital for anyone who wants to explore and interpret the (reception of the) Oera Linda-book and/or old-Frisian (pseudo-) historiography.
When one accepts that the "Friesland" of the second half of the first Millennium has to be placed in the North-West of France, the Frisian 'legends' of that time (that until today are considered to be purely fiction by established historic science) start to make much more sense.
Willibrord in "Chronyk van Friesland" by Ocko van Scharle, Johan Vlytarp and Andreas Cornelisz. van Staveren (1742 edition).
(Transliteration, strikethroughs and comments between [...] by me. An improvised translation may follow, if the forum is interested.)
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
[p.40]
~ Als nu Radbodus Anno 678. dus weder in zyn Ryk gestelt en ontfangen was/ heeft hy zyn Onderzaten zeer streng en tyrannelyk (niet min als den Omunt) geregeerd/ gantschelyk een ander aart als zyn Vader gehad hadde/ aantrekkende/ zo dat hy in den eersten aanvang niet lieftallig onder zyn Volk was/ hoewel het met der tyd wat begon te beteren. Hy stelde zyn Hof en Konings Stoel binnen Stavoren [?]/ want dat een zeer schone en plaisante Stad te dier tyd was/ ende vermeerderde zyn Ryk en Landpalen (met inneminge der naastleggende Landen en Steden) zeer/ hy nam Utregt [Traiectum] in/ en verjoeg daar alle de Priesters en gelovige Leeraars uit/ distrueerde het Bedehuis van St. Thomas, ende nam het Slot Wiltenburg [Viltaburg] in/ daar hy zyn Volk en Garnizoen op leide/ ende bragt alzo tot Nimmegen [Noyon] toe/ het gehele Land onder zyn gewelt/ zo dat ook daar in Bentumer-steen aan die Poort gehouwen wierde/ 't welk ook nog op den huidigen dag daar aanstaat: Hic finitur regnum Stavriae. Hier eindigt het Ryk van Stavoren. En na deze overwinninge zo is Radbodus wederom na zyne Landen van Friesland getrokken/ en heeft daar na een schoon Lusthuis op den Berg van het Rode Clif weder laten zetten en bouwen.
~ Deze tyd is Wigbertus, een zeer Godtvrezend Man uit Engeland in Friesland gekomen/ om aldaar den Koning/ en zyn Onderzaten het gelove Christi te Leeren en te Prediken; dog vermits hy alleen was/ en weinig konde uitregten/ reisde hy twee Jaren na dier tyd weder over in Engeland/ en zeide aldaar/ dat in Friesland eenen groten bouw/ maar weinig Arbeidsluiden in den Wyngaart des Heeren waren. Als dit Willebrordus nu hoorde/ is door dien zeer beweegt geworden om derwaarts te reizen. Want hy uit de Engelsche Friezen/ of Nederzassen/ die voortyds Engeland ingenomen/ en haar residentie aldaar hadden/ geboren was.
[p.41]
~ Als hy nu gantschelyk van zins was om aldaar te trekken/ kwamen zeer veel Godtvrezende/ en goedwillige Mannen/ om in dezen zyn Gezellen te wezen. Onder welken Swygbertus, Willibaldus, Lebuinus, Winibaldus, Werendfridus, Marcellius, Accha, Wygbertus, en Adelbertus des Konings Zoon van Yrland/ welke alle de voornaamste van alle deze Godtvrezende Mannen waren.
~ Aldus zo is Willebrordus met zyn Gezellen Anno 690. na Betavien [Bethune] gezeilt/ en is ontrent den uitgang des Ryns [Scheldt] aangekomen/ en voort op na het Kasteel van Wiltenburg gevaren/ daar Radbodus, de Koning van Friesland/ als doen tegenwoordig was/ daar begonnen te Leeren/ en te Prediken het Woord Godts den ongelovigen Volken. En zy reisden voort het gehele Land door/ en konden zeer wel den volke of Friezen in haar eigen Tale/ en Sprake het Woord Godts verkondigen en leeren/ vermits zy Engelschen/ uit den zelvigen Friezen (als vooren gehoort is) herkomstig/ en gesproten waren. Dog ziende dat ze/ vermits de wreedheid des Konings/ en hardnekkigheid des volks/ zeer weinig uitregteden/ zyn ze ten laatsten gelykelyk te zamen weder weg gereisd; en Willebrordus trok na Pippyn van Herstal/ de Hertog van Braband/ daar hy lieffelyk en zeer wel onthaalt/ en ontfangen wierde.
~ Anno 693. trok Hertog Pippyn voorsz./ door bevel van den Koning van Vrankryk/ met een zeer groot/ en overmagtig Krygsheir na Friesland/ bestreed en verwon Radbodum den Friezen Koning/ en verdreef hem gehelyk uit Utregt [Traiectum]/ vervolgde en benauwde hem ook zo zeer/ dat hy uit noot aannam en beloofde Christen te worden/ na welken de Hertog Friesland weder verliet/ en vertrok na Braband [?] weder toe/ en zond Willebrordum weder na Friesland om te Leeren/ en te Prediken met veel van zyn Gezellen; maar de Koning/ en zyn Onderzaten waren zo in die Afgoderye versteend/ dat ze weinig met Prediken uitregteden/ zo dat Willebrordus, door dien eens wederom na Braband ging vertrekken.
~ Als Willebrordus nu dus weg was/ verspreiden zyne Discipulen haar door het Land/ kwamen ten laatsten op het Eiland daar Radbodus dier tyd was/ het welk genoemt word Ameland [?], hoewel de Koning het by den zynen Foste-land hiete/ welke zonderlinge namen nogtans na zyn meninge een aanwyzinge/ en beduidenisse hadde. Want Foste-land een liefhebbende Land of lieflyk Land hiete/ als Ameland van gelyken ook dede. Zy bekeerden hier maar drie Personen/ en wierpen den Afgodt Foste ter neder/ door welken de Koning zo zeer vertoornt/ en vergramt [p.42] wierde/ dat hy daarom Wygbert liet dooden/ en verdreef de andere alle van het voorsz. Eiland.
### Posted 09 February 2011 - 05:03 PM
Radio Netherlands Worldwide:
Prehistoric grave found in Alkmaar
Published on 9 August 2010 - 2:17pm
Archaeologists digging in the Paardenmarkt (Horse market) square in the centre of the Dutch town of Alkmaar have discovered a prehistoric grave.
The remains show a person buried in the crouched position, which is typical of the Iron Age. The grave was found under a layer of sand found earlier in Alkmaar and known to date from the same period, between 700 BC and the beginning of the Christian era.
The dig in the centre of town is now in its final phase.
Earlier, archaeologists found a collective grave dating from 1573 and containing 15 skeletons and several musket balls and traces of shot. The siege of Alkmaar by the Spanish and the subsequent relief by William of Orange took place between August and October 1573. Other discoveries include a monastery graveyard and the remains of an historic street plan.
The dig is due to end later this month, after which the square will be subject to a major redesign.
http://www.rnw.nl/english/bulletin/prehistoric-grave-found-alkmaar
### Posted 10 February 2011 - 07:28 AM
Abramelin, on 09 February 2011 - 10:17 PM, said:
So I still wonder why a Willem van Haren (1741) said that the original name of Friesland was the "Land of the Alans" (or, in his Dutch, 'Land der Alanen').
I guess he will have had it from Tractatus Alvini (Thet Freske Riim) or Gesta Frisiorum, both from the 15th century.
Unfortunately, I cannot find any of them online.
### Posted 11 February 2011 - 02:36 AM
Abramelin, on 10 February 2011 - 06:50 PM, said:
I did find the "Thet Freske Riim" ("The Frisian Rhyme"), online:
Thet Freske Riim
The language used in that poem resembles the OLB language a lot, but from what I understood after a quick scroll, it's about Biblical things.
----
But I think you and Alewyn should read that poem by Willem van Haren.
Thanks a lot.
I started reading parts of "Friso" by van Haren and will read all now.
Did you read the "Voorreden" too?
De overeenkomsten van dit Gedicht met de Chronyken zyn deze:
1. Dat Friso uit Indië is geboortig geweest:
2. Van Koninklyken Staat:
3. Verdreeven door den Verrader Agrammes:
4. In zyne eerste jeugd:
5. Dat Hy, uit Indië, door Asie, de Middelandsche Zee, en den Straat van Hercules gevlugt, den Vliestroom is ingezeild: Immers volgens Furmerius:
6. Dat Friesland haren naam van dezen Friso heeft ontvangen, en behouden:
7. Ten tyde van Alexander den Groten:
8. Dat Friso een Prins is geweest van uitmuntende hoedanigheden:
9. En den Persiaanschen Gods-dienst toegedaan
I will also have a good look at the Riim (Tractatus Alvini = Alewijn's Treat LOL).
Does anyone know if there's a translation (from Latin) of Rerum Frisicarum Historia (1616) by Ubbo Emmius? That should be interesting too.
### Posted 11 February 2011 - 02:45 AM
Otharus, on 04 February 2011 - 07:11 PM, said:
I have not yet recieved news from the Royal Library about the paper and ink examination.
The deadline for the article has moved one month forward, so I expect news about it by the end of February.
### Posted 11 February 2011 - 03:02 AM
Otharus, on 08 February 2011 - 09:28 AM, said:
Understanding this is vital for anyone who wants to explore and interpret the (reception of the) Oera Linda-book and/or old-Frisian (pseudo-) historiography.
Dutch-Frisian pseudo-history demasked part 2
Bonifacius (675-754) was not murdered in Dokkum but in Dunkirk (Dockynchirica).
From Cronyk van Friesland by Ocko Scarlensis etc. (1742 ed.)
[p.53]
~ Anno 752. wierde Bonifacius de Bisschop van Utregt [Traiectum] met een groten yver ontstoken om 't Christen gelove in de Landen van [Noord-Frans] Friesland te verbreiden/ is derhalven met een-en-vyfteig Medehelpers derwaarts getrokken/ dog vermits des Konings hardigheid en hebben ze niet veel gevorderd/ komende daarom in een Stedeken aan de Lauwerts gelegen/ geheten Dockum [Dockynchirica => Duinkerke], dat van zyn Broeder Gondebolt tot een stad gemaakt was/ omtrent daar het Slot Dockenburg te voren gelegen hadde/ daar ze begonden/ en ook in de naastleggende Plaatzen/ zeer yverig het Woord Godts uit te roepen/ en de Afgoden om te werpen/ waar door zy de wreedheid des Volks zo verwekten/ dat ze met magt en grote razernye toeliepen/ en sloegen den Heiligen Bonifacius daar dood met al zyne Medegezellen/ op den 15 Juny in 't voorschreven Jaar (...)
Improvised translation:
In the year 752, bishop Bonifacius of Traiectum was very motivated to spread the Christ-belief in the lands of Frisia, went there with 51 helpers, but because of the hardness of the king (Radboud) they had no success. When they came to Dockynchirica, that his brother Gondebolt had made into a town, where the house of Dockenburg used to be, there and in the neighboring villages they started shouting the word of God and throwing over Idols, waking up the cruelty of the people, that came to them enraged and slain holy Bonifacius and all his helpers to death on the 15th of June in the aforementioned year.
### Posted 11 February 2011 - 02:17 PM
Abramelin, on 11 February 2011 - 03:33 AM, said:
No, I did not read that poem, but from what you posted , I gather it is the same poem Van Haren published.
It's not a poem, it's Van Haren's introduction to his poem "Friso".
### Posted 11 February 2011 - 04:00 PM
Thanks for letting Abe and me know that our work is still being read and appreciated.
Abramelin, on 10 February 2011 - 06:50 PM, said:
I did find the "Thet Freske Riim" ("The Frisian Rhyme"), online:
Thet Freske Riim
The language used in that poem resembles the OLB language a lot, but from what I understood after a quick scroll, it's about Biblical things.
I read the whole "Freske Riim" and find it most interesting both because of its language as well as how it gives insight in how people thought (or were being brainwashed by religious propaganda).
[Note to Abramelin: The Alanen are not mentioned indeed.]
One thing I find very fascinating is, that King Radboud (that we know as the Frisian King) is not mentioned by name, but referred to as the "Nordska Koning" (Nordic King) and as the "Koning van Danmerken" (Danish King).
Typical for the idiotic mentality of dutch academic historians is the following.
"ALVINUS (Magister) was head of the Latin school in Sneek ca. 1400, and secretary of town respectively. He was a learned man, knew of Roman law and church history. He wrote about the history of the Frisians of the first times till about 800; the original Latin Tractatus is lost. Of that we only have two translations, a Frisian, Thet Freske Riim, that is only partly saved, and a Hollandic, partly poetic, partly prose, that is known as Magistri Alvini Tractatus. All this hardly has any historic value."
That is because they don't want to accept that "Fresia" of the first Millennium was nowhere in nowaday the Netherlands, but in Belgium and France!
Original in Dutch:
"ALVINUS (Magister) was omstreeks 1400 rector der latijnsche school te Sneek en vervolgens secretaris van die stad. Hij was een geleerd man, ervaren in romeinsch recht en kerkgeschiedenis. Hij heeft de geschiedenis der Friezen beschreven van den eersten tijd af tot ongeveer 800; de oorspronkelijke latijnsche Tractatus is verloren. Daarvan bezitten wij twee vertalingen, een friesche, Thet Freske riim, dat slechts gedeeltelijk bewaard is, en een hollandsche, deels in verzen, deels in proza, die als Magistri Alvini tractatus bekend staat. Historische waarde heeft dat alles zeer weinig."
Source: Nieuw Nederlandsch biografisch woordenboek. Deel 6
redactie P.C. Molhuysen en P.J. Blok (dnbl 2008)
http://www.dbnl.org/tekst/molh003nieu06_01/molh003nieu06_01.pdf
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
In relation to the 'historical displacement' of (French-Flemmish) Fresia to (Dutch) Friesland, the following is most interesting in my opinion.
[First some translated parts (getting tired of it too), then the original text in Dutch.]
Notes by E. Epkema to "Thet Freske Riim" (page 56-57)
"(...) ALVINUS (...) would have changed Frisian poetry into 'Netherdutch' poetry (...)
This Freske Riim cannot be the work of from ALVINUS, because then it would have to be Belgian, that is 'Netherdutch', poetry; which they are not, they are Old-Frisian or rather Frisian, written in the common language of the time. (...)"
Original text in Dutch
"E. EPKEMA OP THET FRESKE RIIM
~ Vs.1. Ik sculde sega. Wie is die ik? Is het Alvinus? Of een ander, die van zijn werk een uittreksel heeft gemaakt? SUFFRIDUS PETRI, de Scriptor. Fris., pag.67, seqq., geeft het, zoo het schijnt, op voor werk van ALVINUS zelven. "M. ALVINUS," zegt hij, "eenigen tijd lang Rector der latijnsche school te Sneek, vervolgens Secretaris dier stad, schreef een tractaat of kort begrip der Friesche geschiedenis, van de wieg en bakermat van dat volk tot op KAREL den grooten." Vervolgens zegt hij, pag.69, dat ALVINUS, volgens deszelfs eigene opgave, Friesche verzen of rijmen in Nederduitsche verzen zoude hebben overgegoten; - dat hij in deze rijmen zeer geloofwaardige Schrijvers zoude hebben gevolgd, als MOZES, JOSEPHUS, MEGASTHENES, en PATROCLES; - dat de exemplaren van dit gedicht, waarvan hij onderscheidene gezien had, in eenige weinige dingen verschilden; - pag.72, dat het exemplaar, hem bezorgd door HUBERTUS SCHOTUS, iets nauwkeuriger was, dan dat, wat in het HS. van het klooster te Thabor voorhanden was, enz.
~ Uit dit verhaal van SUFFRIDUS zou men, mijns bedunkens, moeten opmaken, vooreerst, dat dit Freske Riim het geschrift van ALVINUS niet kan zijn; want het zouden, volgens hem, Belgische, dat is Nederduitsche, rijmen moeten zijn; en dat zijn ze niet, maar Oud-Friesche, of liever Friesche, in de toenmalige landtaal geschreven. Ten tweede blijkt het allerduidelijkst, uit vergelijking van ons stuk met de opgave van SUFFRIDUS, dat het onze veel minder bevat, dan dat van ALVINUS zou bevatten, alsmede, dat het in andere opzigten er van verschilt."
### Posted 12 February 2011 - 09:35 AM
Otharus, on 11 February 2011 - 04:00 PM, said:
Notes by E. Epkema to "Thet Freske Riim" (page 56-57)
"(...) ALVINUS (...) would have changed Frisian poetry into 'Netherdutch' poetry (...)
This Freske Riim cannot be the work of from ALVINUS, because then it would have to be Belgian, that is 'Netherdutch', poetry; which they are not, they are Old-Frisian or rather Frisian, written in the common language of the time. (...)"
How 'FRISIA' became FLANDRIA
Translated (with my comments between [...]) from: www.ijpelaan.nl
"The Flevum from the Roman period, later mostly referred to as Almere, was a sea-bay between Calais, St.Omaars, Winoksbergen and further up north. The name Almere is confirmed by local texts. (...) The Zuiderzee of the Netherlands never had the name Almere. (...)" [Delahaye, "De ware kijk op...", pt.1, p.87]
"Close to the Flevum (...), known today as Plaine Flamande, we find at short distance names that are well known from Hollandic history [pseudo-history!], like
Witla (Wissant, never localised in the Netherlands),
Werethina (Fréthun, not Werden),
Attingahem (Assinghem or Autingues, not Nederhorst den berg),
Adricheim (Audrehem, not the house of Adrichem near Beverwijk),
Tilia (Tilques, not Tiel)
Nifterlaca (Éperlecques, not the Zuiderzee),
Dorestadum (Audruicq, not Wijk bij Duurstede),
Trajectum (Tournehem-sur-la-Hem, not Utrecht),
Burdina (de Bourre, not the Boorne in Friesland),
Isla (the Lyzel, not the IJsel),
Lockia (the Loquin, not the Lek),
Daventria (Desvres, not Deventer),
and many more, too many to all mention here, that are usually ignored in traditional [Dutch] historiography because they cannot be localised anywhere in the Netherlands." [IJpelaan]
"The first count ("graaf") of Flanders ("Vlaanderen"), who had taken the initiative to protect the coastal area from the Normans, initially took care of the area that had no lord ("heer"), because most of it was land that had recently become dry again [re-claimed?]. First is was called Flelandria, because it had emerged from the former Flevum or Fle, which name transformed into Flandria. The first count could not use the title "of Frisia", because that area still existed and was not his. After his expansions he continued using the new name [Flandria], that eventually, when Frisia became part of his domains, replaced the old name [Frisia]." [Delahaye, "De ware kijk op...", pt.2, p.302]
"Later the name [Frisia] was relocated from the original area to the current region West-Friesland, and more later also to what is now the Netherlandic province Friesland." [IJpelaan]
### Posted 13 February 2011 - 07:17 AM
Abramelin, on 10 February 2011 - 07:52 PM, said:
And you can bet I will try to dig up the sources Van Haren based his poem on.
Can this be a clue?
"This story the Frisians could have made up themselves, but they didn't, they took it ready-made from the Saxons.
~ Rudolfus Fuld, Transl. S. Alexandri (ca. 860),
~ Widukind, Res gestae Saxonieae (ca. 970),
~ Ekkehard, Chronicon universale (ca. 1110)
(...)
That story of an army division of Alexander the great, with Saxo, Bruno and including Friso, was taken by the Frisians from Nethersaxon chronicles."
Translated from:
KRITIEK der FRIESCHE GESCHIEDSCHRIJVING
(Review of Frisian Historiography)
by Dr. J. BOLHUIS VAN ZEEBURGH (1873) page 71/72
### Posted 13 February 2011 - 07:26 AM
Alewyn, on 11 February 2011 - 09:32 AM, said:
Dr. Ottema’s paper delivered in 1872 and his foreword to his second edition of the OLB in 1876 gave ample proof that the OLB was not a hoax. Yet, everybody ignored or ridiculed him. Even now, the Dutch are having a dilemma in reporting the results of the tests done on the manuscript. Why would that be?
People say: ideas rule the world, and this is true. It is known that a strong conviction has driven the first followers of Mohammed, and a few centuries later the Spanish Christians, the crusaders etc. to great deeds, that they could not have done without this conviction. Also the belief that Charles the Great had given the Frisians the privilege of only having to serve te emperor, and no count or lord, surely has changed the course of the history of these peoples, from Kennemerland to past the Wezer, from how it would have been otherwise [without this belief]. The Westfrisians would have resisted less sturdy against the counts of Holland, had they not been convinced that justice was on their side. Also the Westergoërs, Oostergoërs [Eastfrisians] etc. would have put their swords away earlier and not have so strongly rejected a kind of government that was yet unknown to them. Later too, they would have assimilated much more with what came from outside, and also today they would be less 'selfstanding' [isolated, independent], proud and 'ownmindy' [wayward]. The history books of the Frisians, e.g. the writings of Emmius, would be totally different, had this conviction not existed, because Emmius too always explained his sources in a way his ideas about freedom demanded of him, that is; totally different from how a non-Frisian would explain them.
Source:
KRITIEK der FRIESCHE GESCHIEDSCHRIJVING
(Review of Frisian Historiography)
by Dr. J. BOLHUIS VAN ZEEBURGH (1873) page 10
Original text in Dutch:
Men zegt wel eens: ideën regeeren de wereld, en dit zeker niet ten onrechte. Men weet dat eene sterke overtuiging de eerste volgelingen van Mohammed, en eenige eeuwen later de Christenvolken Van Spanje, de kruisvaarders enz. tot groote daden heeft opgewekt, die zij zonder die overtuiging niet zouden verricht hebben. Ook het geloof dat keizer Karel de Friezen had toegestaan alleen aan den keizer, en buiten dien aan geen graaf of heer, onder danig behoeven te zijn, heeft zekerlijk de geschiedenis van dezen volksstam, van Kennemerland af tot over de Wezer, een geheel anderen loop doen nemen, dan anders het geval zou geweest zijn. De Westfriezen zouden zich minder hardnekkig tegen de Hollandsche graven hebben verdedigd, zoo ze niet overtuigd waren geweest dat het recht aan hunne zijde was. Ook de Westergoërs, Oostergoërs enz. zouden vroeger het zwaard in de schede hebben gestoken en niet zoo af keerig geweest zijn van een hun nog onbekenden regeeringsvorm. Zij zouden ook later zich veel meer met hetgeen van buiten kwam geassimileerd hebben, en ook thans minder zelfstandig, trotsch en eigenzinnig zijn. De geschiedboeken der Friezen, b.v. de geschriften van Emmius, zouden, had die overtuiging niet bestaan, er geheel anders uitzien, want ook Emmius heeft zijne bronnen altijd zóó verklaard als zijne vrijheidsideën dat eischten, d.i. geheel anders dan een niet Fries ze zou verklaren.
### Posted 13 February 2011 - 01:57 PM
Abramelin, on 12 February 2011 - 09:27 PM, said:
The schematic map below ...
The map you posted is a joke, right? Neither traditional, nor serious alternative historians would dare use it.
Neither would you if you had ever understood anything of Delahaye's work. Please read IJpelaan's website first if you want to discuss this. I have better things to do than spell it out to someone who can read Dutch.
That website where you got the map and quote from (bertsgeschiedenissite) proves that its creator does not have a clue. (Where is the source for that 966AD document, which is probably a forgery?)
Wether or not Urk existed and wheter the name Almere was used elsewhere is irrelevant to the significant point I made:
that Frisia/ Fresia of the first-millennium sources must be placed in north-west Francia and not in what is now the Netherlands.
As soon as one accepts this, much of what is considered to be Frisian 'fantastic' (fantasy based) historiography starts to totally make sense.
### Posted 14 February 2011 - 08:24 AM
Abramelin, on 13 February 2011 - 06:16 PM, said:
But the fact remains that you stated that there was no Almere in the Netherlands in the first millenium, and a historical magazine of 1885 quotes a source that should prove there was.
To be precise: I presented my translation of a Delahaye quote taken from IJpelaan's website.
The part "The Zuiderzee of the Netherlands never had the name Almere" may be right (if the 966AD document, like many similar ones of that time, is a forgery, used to claim and trade rights to land), or it may be wrong (if the document is authentic and not a 'copy' of a later date; in this case there was more than one "Almere"). Either way, it's irrelevant. To avoid distraction, I would now leave out the references to Almere, so the introduction becomes this:
"The Flevum from the Roman period, (...) was a sea-bay between Calais, St.Omaars, Winoksbergen and further up north." [Delahaye, "De ware kijk op...", pt.1, p.87]
### Posted 14 February 2011 - 08:34 AM
Abramelin, on 13 February 2011 - 06:55 PM, said:
If Otharus is right, then the parts about Middelburg, Leiden, Culemborg, Leeuwarden, and so on. There should only have been water instead of habitable land between 200 and 1000 AD. The last period of the OLB must have been about a time when there was only sea.
(...)
Well, I think Otharus is wrong, based on archeology. Dorestad should not have existed between 200 and 1000 AD according to Delahaye, but it did.
And I posted about a treasure found in Wieuwerd (fibulas, coins) from the 7th century. How can that be if it was sea? Did they send divers down to bury the loot undersea?
???
Nowhere did I suggest that all of what is now the Netherlands did not exist in the first millennium, and neither did Albert Delahaye.
Some of the main conclusions are:
- Willibrord operated in Traiectum (now: Tournehem-sur-la-Hem)/ Aefternacum (now: Éperlecques) and not in Utrecht/ Echternach (Netherlands/ Luxemburg). Note: This leaves the possibility that there was some sort of habitation in or near what is now Utrecht!
- Bonifacius died in Dockynchirica (now: Dunkirk) and not in Dokkum (Friesland). Note: This leaves the possibility that there was some sort of habitation in or near what is now Dokkum!
- The legendary Dorestadum of the medieval sources was located at or near what is now Audruicq and not at Wijk bij Duurstede (Netherlands). Note: This leaves the possibility that there was some sort of habitation in or near what is now Wijk bij Duurstede!
- Not discussed here yet, but also important: Charlemagne had his palace in Noviomagum (now: Noyon) and not in Nijmegen (Netherlands). Note: This leaves the possibility that there was some sort of habitation in or near what is now Nijmegen!
- Frisia/ Fresia of the first millenium was where what is now Westflanders/ north-west France (and maybe Zeeland?) and not in what are now the Dutch provinces South-Holland, North-Holland, Utrecht and Friesland. Note: This leaves the possibility that there was some sort of habitation in what is now the Netherlands!
It is accepted that the Romans have been in what is now the Netherlands. Much of the area has been inhabited in the beginning of the first millennium and before that. The 'bog-soil' (?) (dutch: veengrond) indicates that there must have been forests for a long, long time.
HOLTLAND, HOLZLAND, HOUTLAND => WOODLAND (Oakwood is perfect for building ships!?)
What I think (in summary) is that area got flooded more-and-more as a result of long-term deforestation and using the dried bog as fuel to burn. The Low-Lands were flooded not (only) as a result of rising sealevels, but (mostly) because the deforested land was sinking.
### Posted 14 February 2011 - 09:50 AM
Abramelin, on 13 February 2011 - 07:20 PM, said:
Then I hope you like this one:
Or this one (800 AD):
We really have to forget about the Dutch borders and looks at things from a broader perspective.
### Posted 14 February 2011 - 09:56 AM
Alewyn, on 14 February 2011 - 09:41 AM, said:
Now, Friso and his Indian origins are some of the best known episodes in Frisian legends. Why does the OLB go against these accept “facts” by saying that Friso did not, in fact, come from India. Why did they change this bit around? Surely the guys that fabricated the OLB hoax should have known that this would weaken their case? After all, the rest of their historical facts seem to have been very carefully researched.
My thoughts too and the same goes for Asinga Ascon (legends) VS Asega Askar (OLB). (Many more examples possible.)
### Posted 14 February 2011 - 06:24 PM
Abramelin, on 14 February 2011 - 03:31 PM, said:
The problem with your map is that it is based on the idea that the situation (transgression) lasted for centuries.
They now know it didn't, and that is one of the reasons they left the Dunkirk Transgression Theory.
"Het oorspronkelijke model van de Duinkerkse transgressies wordt inderdaad door steeds meer geologen verlaten. Voor de conclusies over de bewoonbaarheid maakt dat geen verschil; de onbewoonbaarheid krijgt alleen een betere en nauwkeuriger verklaring."
source: http://www.ijpelaan.nl/Archief/Kennemerland/Kenn-Transgressie.html
Translated:
"The initial model of the Dunkirk transgressions is indeed abandoned by ever more geologists. For the conclusions concerning the habitability this does not make a difference; the inhabitability only gets a better, more accurate explanation."
What about those "recent archeological discoveries" proving Delahaye wrong, that you were talking about? They should be all over the internet.
### Posted 14 February 2011 - 06:30 PM
Abramelin, on 14 February 2011 - 03:36 PM, said:
Was there an island called Urk in the Belgium Almere/Flevum?
Btw, the Zuiderzee did have the name Almere, after it was called Flevum.
Urk is of zero-point-zero relevance here.
The Zuiderzee was indeed called Flevum/ Almere,
just like Nijmegen was called Noviomagum,
and Utrecht => Trajectum,
and Dokkum => Dockynchirica,
and Wijk bij Duurstede => Dorestadum
and Holland, Utrecht, Friesland => Frisia
...
AFTER the history of the first millennium was imported to our provinces in the beginning of the second millenium (as I have extensively explained before).
Another interesting quote from:
KRITIEK der FRIESCHE GESCHIEDSCHRIJVING (Review of Frisian Historiography)
by Dr. J. BOLHUIS VAN ZEEBURGH (1873) Page 68 (about Gesta Fresonum):
Dutch:
"Van den tijd waar de heiligenlevens en de verhalen van Karel den groote onzen kroniekschrijver begeven (d. i. van ongeveer 900 tot 1200) tot aan de kruistochten wordt niets verhaald, eene gaping, die ook in andere Friesche kronieken bestaat."
English:
"From the time of the hagiographies and the tales of Charlemagne till the crusades (that is from ca. 900 till 1200), our chronicler has no reports, a gaping hole, that also exists in other Frisian chronicles."
I know it must be hard, having to unlearn things you liked so much at primary school.
The older you are, the more it hurts (for a little while).
### Posted 14 February 2011 - 06:46 PM
Abramelin, on 14 February 2011 - 05:57 PM, said:
It's indeed the other Frisian legends that say that Friso came from India.
But overall the OLB has many similarities with those other legends.
Have you actually read any of the old-Frisian chronicles?
There are hardly any similarities, the only ones I can think of now are Friso and Azinga Ascon (Asega Askar or black Adel in OLB), and OLB gives a completely different perspective than we know from the legends. Ottema pointed this out too in his introduction to his translation.
Thet Freske Riim suggests that the Frisians stem from Sem, one of the three sons of Noah...
Kroniek van Friesland (Occo Scarlensis) suggests that before Friso c.s. arrived, our lands were inhabited by giants from Albion...
They don't say much about the time before the year zero.
### Posted 14 February 2011 - 07:01 PM
Abramelin, on 14 February 2011 - 06:48 PM, said:
Well, at least from the Dutch Dorestad it is now known by many archeological finds to have been an important city of the Frisians.
If this would not be exaggerated, there should be loads about it on the web, even videos.
### Posted 15 February 2011 - 02:37 AM
Abramelin, on 14 February 2011 - 07:03 PM, said:
Man, Google "Dorestad" and "archeologie".
An impressive quantity of finds yes, but nothing of quality at first sight.
I have a bad web-connection here, cannot go look for a needle in a haystack (which I don't believe exists anyway).
You claimed to know proof that Wijk bij Duurstede is the legendary Dorestad.
Please enlighten us.
### Posted 15 February 2011 - 02:41 AM
Abramelin, on 14 February 2011 - 08:47 PM, said:
Joël Vandemaele, "Controversiele Geschiedenis" :
http://www.mens-en-cultuur-uitgevers.be/boeken/controversiele-geschiedenis/controversiele-geschiedschrijving/
Yes, I am going to order and study that book, as well as his Beowulf book (Het BEOWULF-epos).
http://www.mens-en-cultuur-uitgevers.be/boeken/cultuurgeschiedenis-en-erfgoed/het-beowulf-epos/
Have you read the info about that one?
### Posted 15 February 2011 - 01:50 PM
Otharus, on 13 February 2011 - 01:57 PM, said:
Frisia/ Fresia of the first-millennium sources must be placed in north-west Francia and not in what is now the Netherlands.
As soon as one accepts this, much of what is considered to be Frisian 'fantastic' (fantasy based) historiography starts to totally make sense.
As part of an attempt to bridge the gap between the Oera Linda-book and accepted history, here is some more re-interpreted history of Northwestern Europe in the first Millennium.
Improvised translation by me from www.ijpelaan.nl with added notes between [...].
Frisi, Normanni and Saxoni (see separate post)
### Posted 16 February 2011 - 02:44 AM
Abramelin, on 15 February 2011 - 10:53 PM, said:
But what I read was known in the 19th century.
You seem to think these guys were ignorant.
Halbertsma had the knowledge and the motive, and he sure as hell would have known of these 19th century stories.
Most of the 19th century scholars (the dominant ones), who we may suppose to have been some of the least ignorant guys of their time, agreed that the OLB consisted of blatant, blasphemous nonsense and that its language was nothing but gibberish.
Even Goffe Jensma (now professor-doctor Frisian culture) thought so five years ago.
We (being some of the least ignorant guys of our time), more than 150 years after it was supposedly created, finally seem to agree that the OLB might possibly be authentic.
In none of the 3134 previous posts have we discovered a single detail that would prove that the OLB has to be a hoax.
In other words; the 19th century scholars, and their successors up to Dr. Jensma, were wrong by not taking the OLB seriously.
### Posted 16 February 2011 - 09:16 AM
Abramelin, on 15 February 2011 - 10:53 PM, said:
But what I read was known in the 19th century.
Halbertsma had the knowledge and the motive, and he sure as hell would have known of these 19th century stories.
If any omniscient joker created the OLB in the 19th century, based on what was 'known' at that time, it would be no less than a miracle that he did not use any 'knowledge' that would later (between then and now) be proven wrong.
### Posted 16 February 2011 - 11:50 AM
Otharus, on 13 February 2011 - 01:57 PM, said:
Frisia/ Fresia of the first-millennium sources must be placed in north-west Francia and not in what is now the Netherlands.
In French-Flanders twenty toponyms can be found that can be traced back directly to the Fresones:
Fersinghem, former Frisinghem;
Festibert, former Fristubert;
Frescôte;
Frémicourt, former Friesmecourt;
Frésicourt;
Fresne (4×);
Fresnes-sur-Escaut (Escaut is the French name of the Scheldt);
Fresnes-lès-Montauban;
Fresnicourt-le-Dolmen;
Fresnoie;
Fresnoy (6×);
Fresnoy-en-Gohelle;
Fressain;
Fresse;
Fressin;
Fressins;
Fressinge;
Frévillers, former Friesvilla;
Frévin-Capelle;
Frissinghe;
source: "Germania = Frans-Vlaanderen bij Tacitus" by Albert Delahaye (1996)
Translated from www.ijpelaan.nl
### Posted 18 February 2011 - 01:16 AM
Abramelin, on 17 February 2011 - 08:35 PM, said:
Pharismanes is Friso
Friesland had been settled early, with evidence of terp-building, the distinctive raised settlements, starting in 700 BC.
I am just adding info, I am not saying it disproves Delahaye's claims.
But what I found out sure as hell should make one have second thoughts about Delahaye's claims.
Interesting finds (EDIT: at first sight, but having second thoughts already), I'm listening and meanwhile reading about the Herrels/ Heruli ('swamp'-people!?). Also I have ordered Vandermaele's two books. And waiting for the OLB paper-ink study report.
It's always good to have second thoughts, but I think you misunderstood Delahaye's 'claims', that anyway have evolved into better theories by some of his successors. I believe too that some of what is now NL was inhabited earlier, then lost to the floods and later reclaimed again. This does fit into what Delahaye said; his most significant work (i.m.o.) was about the interpretation of where the Batavi lived (not Betuwe!), where Fresia, Noyon, Traiectum, Aefternacum, Dockynchirka, Renus, Fle etc. of the sources from the second half of the first millennium should be located. The transgressions theory was not a main pillar on which his work rested. The main pillar was thorough research of loads of original documents as well as (the lack of) archaeological finds in the places that were always thought to have been so important in the time of Charles 'the great' and the christenings.
Having a break of heavy posting again to let what I posted last week sink in and prepare for a new leap forward.
### Posted 18 February 2011 - 06:11 AM
Abramelin, on 18 February 2011 - 02:04 AM, said:
Delahaye's successors simply ignore new archeological finds.
Which you still have not linked to (I asked you earlier, but you simply ignore difficult questions).
If there would have been finds that would prove him wrong, they would be spectacular, Kees IJpelaan would know of them, SEM (Studygroup First Millennium) would know of them, and they would be all over the web. They are not, because they in fact prove Delahaye right; that Nijmegen and Utrecht were minor settlements, and that Northern Germany was NOT old-Saxony. The Romans were never even there. Tacitus' Germania was not our Germany, but Northern Francia.
All this has huge implications for European history as we know it.
### Posted 19 February 2011 - 07:48 AM
Alewyn, on 18 February 2011 - 10:04 AM, said:
Otharus, Just a few thoughts; some of which I have also expressed in my book:
Thanks Alewyn, this is very helpful as it summarises things up and it shows me which parts need further explanation.
Quote
1. I won’t pretend to understand Frisian historiography and all the various interpretations and theories by people such as Delahaye, etc. nor shall I attempt to reconstruct the geography of Europe’s western coastline, especially around Belgium, the Netherlands and Denmark. That I’ll leave to people such as yourself and Abe.
In future posts I will help you (and anyone else who's interested) understand more of the relevant bits of Delahaye's theories and their implications for the interpretation of Frisian historiography and the reception of the Oera Linda-book. Without Delahaye, some of the old-Frisian historiographies indeed seem nonsense; that's why scholars in the past had to conclude that they mostly must have been fantasy-based. And because they were already used to thinking like this (in conspiracy theories about supposedly fabricated historiography, specially concerning that of Ocko Scharlensis, Johannes Vlytarp and Andreas Cornelius Stavrienses, firstly published in the 16th century), the conclusion that OLB had to be a fabrication as well, was made (too) easily.
This needs a better explanation, which I will give in a seperate post, that is in preparation.
As for geography reconstruction; for now it's good to just get used to the idea that for example OLB's Texland does not have to be our Texel, that OLB's Mêdêasblik does not have to be our Medemblik etcetera, because there have been migrations (back and forth?), by which names of places, rivers, islands etc. were copied and moved. This could explain the lack of archaeological finds at certain locations, because we may be looking at the wrong sites.
Quote
2. Am I correct to say that you are trying to prove that many of the old Frisian historians that have either been ignored or assumed false, should have been taken more seriously? This then by association should include the OLB? Could you clarify this to me (and to others?).
Yes! Thanks for asking. It will be my pleasure to make this the main topic of my near-future posts.
Quote
3. Your present reconstruction covers the period from the early middle ages or perhaps the whole AD era. The OLB, of course, goes back a further 2000 years to 4200 BP.
Yes, I hope this reconstruction will help us understand in what context the (last two?) copies by Liko (803 AD) and Hidde (1256 AD) were made. Also it may explain why it's so difficult to find physical evidence of the old culture. Furthermore, it becomes more clear that certain patterns in history seem to repeat themselves, as if in a spiral. There may be certain 'archetypes' that keep coming back (like the strong and/or wise revolutionary leader that stands up in time of need). That's how Jensma believed that OLB was actually about a religious/ political controversy in the 19th century. Many of OLB's 'story elements' can be projected on later (and earlier?) events as they are, in a way, repetitions of the same principle. (You have also pointed this out by comparing South Africa, a former Dutch colony, with Athens, a former Fryan colony.)
Quote
4. If, however, we only look at your (and Abe’s) posts regarding the last 2000 years, a few things can be accepted as fact:
• The Frisians have been along Europe’s Western Seaboard long before the Romans and even the Vikings (Tacitus, Pliny the Elder, etc.) – precisely what the OLB tells us.
Yes, Frisians AND other groups that ALSO stem from the FRYANS. Another thing I will explain in near-future posts, is my theory that there are actually two different sorts of "Frisians"; the people of Friso (who was of Fryan blood, but was actually an immigrant who started a whole new tradition) and the people of Frya (who had never left the area and wanted to maintain the original matriarchal system and therefore were not overly happy with Friso's more warlike ways). I believe that the Over de Linden family, in which the OLB was passed on, is part of the second group. In the 19th and early 20th century most of them were called "vrijzinnig"; something like "free-thinkers" as opposed to more strictly religious people. I believe the Frisian 'nobility', the people with most power and wealth, are more of the bloodline of Friso. In the 19th century they were more "streng-gereformeerd", which means they took the Bible very seriously. More about this later.
Quote
• At different stages the Frisians can be traced to various places in Western Europe viz. France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Denmark and North-Western Germany. (Including Britain) This widespread presence bears out the OLB’s claims.
Indeed, the best proof i.m.o. is how traces of the OLB language can easily be identified in all the different European languages, and the various old mythologies show reflections of what in OLB are still historical characters and events.
Quote
• Ignoring the OLB’s previous 2000 years, “just” over the last 2000 years the Frisian’s have been in numerous wars and struggles for their sovereignty. They were conquered many times and had seen their social, cultural and political fibers dramatically altered and almost destroyed on numerous occasions. Many other peoples from all over the world who had been subjected to lesser calamities have totally disappeared from the scene. Yet, some of the Frisian[s] national[ist]s around today apparently still stubbornly cling to their creed regardless of whether the OLB and other historical writings are taken as fact or fiction. Either the OLB is true or the Frisians are and have been compulsive liars regarding their history for millennia as Abe claims.
This actually brought tears in my eyes... Truth has been suppressed and twisted for a long, long time here. I believe that the significantly higher rates of depression and suicide in both Friesland and Westfriesland, is a direct or indirect result of this. It's horrible to be falsely accused lying.
I also believe that the reason why so much of the old culture could still survive here, is that in the Fryan bloodline (which would be more matriarchal and less confused by much migration), culture is more passed on by mothers, and less by male (religious or military) teachers.
Quote
• If one only considers the last 2000 years, Europe’s Western coastal lands have been subjected to numerous very destructive floods and other natural disasters. Hundreds of well documented villages in and around the Netherlands have totally disappeared. Others which have not been completely washed away, have been rebuilt and are known to have now existed for as much as 2000 years. In other words, these old towns and settlements merely evolved into the towns and cities that we know today, (as I have shown in my book). In other cases material from the surviving structures have been salvaged and used in new constructions or put to some other use. A case in point here are the numerous terpen mounds in the Netherlands that have been destroyed during the 19th and 20th centuries for use as fertilizer. Yet, Abe still insist on archaeological evidence in the form of old brick structures.
I don't know about those "Hundreds of well documented villages", but I know of some. Were they discussed here earlier or do you have a link or chapter in your book where I can read about it?
I agree there are several good explanations possible for the lack of archaeological evidence. One of them is that they are not looking properly, because they want to confirm the existing paradigm, not confuse it more. Second there should be more international cooperation. Since the emergence of nations in Europe, "history" has mostly been a political tool; 1) to claim 'ancient' rights to land and its fruits, 2) to prepare (brainwash) the youth to become proud citizens who are willing to pay taxes (work for their masters) and fight (die) for their country if needed. 3) More recent: to promote tourism!
Truth has not always been the highest priority of the historic 'science'.
Quote
• The damp climate in the Netherlands are not conducive to the preservation of artifacts as is the hot, dry climate, for example, in the Middle East.
Also, most of the articfacts, buildings and ships will have been made of some of the most wonderful materials we had here; (oak-!) wood and hemp. Anyone who wants to cut and carve stone, will first practice with wood. Stone lasts, not wood. The term "Friezen" is still used for carved ornaments in buildings. Old churches (and other old buildings) in NL sometimes have the most beautiful examples of this art that must have evolved over thousands of years.
Quote
• If there are this much confusion over the last 2000 years, how much more so for the previous 2000 years?
Very much indeed, but I believe it's possible to reconstruct much of it, when historians of different traditions join forces in a constructive, less competitive and political way.
Quote
• Add to the above the dense population and intensive cultivation of Europe, it should then be clear to anybody that the apparent absence of structures and artifacts in Western Europe is no proof that the OLB is wrong.
Indeed, but I believe that some will surface from private collections (maybe even from secret archives, like those of the Vatican), and museum depots, once OLB is accepted to be authentic. People will look at things with different eyes.
Quote
• You and Abe have already proven that the language of the OLB is not gibberish (wartaal) but do in fact show a remarkable similarity to other old Frisian dialects. Just on this one point, many of the 19th century opponents of the OLB are proven wrong.
That is correct. Since Beckering Vinckers' highly emotional article (he felt insulted), no serious study of the language has ever been done as far as I know. Jensma was not a linguist, nor a historian, but a theologian!
Not only is 'Fryan' similar to old-Frisian dialects (less to Rustringian than to Westfrisian and Nethersaxon!), but also very much so to Scandinavian languages, German and obviously Dutch and English. One could make a family tree of languages, with 'Fryan' as one of the oldest ancestors.
Quote
It is a pity that we have no Dutch, Frisian or even European historians participating in this debate. On the other hand, most of them will most likely see us as adversaries or remain in total denial (as some) instead of considering this alternative (and to my mind, true) history on its merits.
Times will change...
### Posted 21 February 2011 - 07:54 AM
Alewyn, on 20 February 2011 - 04:23 PM, said:
Herewith some floods and casualties from v. Baars’ paper (and from other sources)
Some more about floods:
Water-floods in Friesland
(source: "It aade Friesche Terp, of KRONYK der GESCHIEDENISSEN van de VRYE FRIESEN", 3rd edition 1834, p.334-339)
- 333 North Holland; Zijpe/ Roman city "Grebbe", half hour north of Wieringen would have been lost
- 435 Frl.
- 516 Frl.
- 570 or 533 [or both]
- 584
- 586 or 626, or both, in Frl./ 4 years later Adgillus started making floodmounds and terps, first dykes
- 792 or 793 many people and cattle lost, several cities, villages, forests and lands lost
- 806 St.-Thomas flood, Frl./ from this one till mid 12th century several floods in Friesland, North-Holland, Zeeland and Flanders, specially 839
- 1164 beginning of the year; St.-Julians flood; thousands of people and cattle lost
- 1178 All-Saints flood; "all-destroying"/ sea came up to Utrecht/ partly caused by "greedy Frisian abotts" who had been digging in the lands
- 1200 part of Frl.
- 1212 "terrible waterflood" in North-Holland
- 1219 january; Marcellus flood, "incomparable", much destruction between Wezer and Schelde, thousands of lives lost.
- 1220, '21, 22, 23, 24 every year; as well as in '27/30/37/46/48,49,50/57/62/66/73/77/85/87,88/90; utterly disasterous years for Friesland. In this century Ezonsstad, Camminghaburg near Leeuwarden, Britsenburg at the Middelzee, Wartena partly, and Grind completely disappeared.
- 1313, as well as in '34/36/61/77/80/87.
- 1400 the "Friesche vloed"; important for the rise of Amsterdam because of the widening of Marsdiep.
- 1403 third Catharina's flood
- 1421 St.-Elisabeth's flood; 72 villages in South-Holland's Waard flooded, 20 completely lost.
- 1425,26,27,28,29 every year, '34/37/46/64/70/74/77/97
- 1502,03/09/16.17/20/24,25 (3 floods in one year)/30,31,32 (31 and 32 possibly the same flood)/52/59
- 1570 All-saints flood; "reshaped the coastlines from France to Norway", "indescribable", ca. 20.000 dead in Frl.
- 1572,73/75/77,78; some dykes and dams were built
- 1610 south-west corner; 1623/25/43.
- 1651 St.-Pieters flood, after river floods in january in the Netherlands; the following months in Frl. and terrible for North Holland.
- 1665/75.
- 1701/03/15/17; "7 kersflood" mainly in East Friesland
- 1731 a plague of worms eating wooden foundation of dykes ("paalworm").
- 1775,76 in Frl.
- 1825 destruction at coastlines from North-Jutland to France.
The publication where this is taken from is considered by dr. Jensma c.s. to be part of the tradition of Frisian "fantasy based" historiography...
Who would make up something like this and why?
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Something else:
Archaeological finds in the province North-Holland from between 2900-2500 BC: website of the Single Grave Culture research group
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
A reveiling quote from "De Gemaskerde God" by Goffe Jensma (2004), page 75 (translated by me):
"The primal father of the Frisians would be a certain Friso, an Indian prince who, after having served in Alexander's army, landed in Friesland in 313 BC. Without mentioning their sources and therefore based on their fantasy, authors like Ocko Scarlensis, Suffridus Petrus and Martinus Hamconius painted a detailed image of the main events in the old-Frisian society from that moment on up to their own time."
Original in Dutch:
"... de stamvader van de Friezen [zou] een zekere Friso zijn, een Indiase prins die, nadat hij in het leger van Alexander de Grote had gediend, in 313 voor Christus voet op Friese bodem zette. Zonder bronvermeling en dus vanuit hun fantasie, wisten schrijvers als Ocko Scarlensis, Suffridus Petrus en Martinus Hamconius een gedetailleerd beeld te schilderen van de belangrijkste gebeurtenissen in de Oudfriese samenleving vanaf dat moment tot in de eigen tijd."
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
The website www.wumkes.nl is the "digital historic library of Friesland", an initiative of people who aim at promoting the study of Frisian cultural history.
It provides some interesting scanned sources, some of which I've been studying recently.
I would herewith like to thank them for providing this oportunity.
They are especially promoting their latest upload, the ("fantasy-based"?) Bible in the Frisian 'language' (or dialect) with a flashy banner in the right upper corner of their website.
President (voorzitter) of the Wumkes editorial office is: Goffe Jensma from the Fryske Akademy.
Isn't that interesting?
### Posted 21 February 2011 - 10:03 AM
Otharus, on 21 February 2011 - 07:54 AM, said:
source: "It aade Friesche Terp, of KRONYK der GESCHIEDENISSEN van de VRYE FRIESEN", 3rd edition 1834
... considered by dr. Jensma c.s. to be part of the tradition of Frisian "fantasy based" historiography
Abe, you suggested a relation between Friesen en Pruisen before.
I thought this was a good find, don't remember ever having read it somewhere else before, not in Jensma's work, I think.
Now have a good read of the following...
Fast improvised translation from: "It aade Friesche Terp"
[P.2]
Frieso, eerste Prins van Friesland, arriveert in 313 BC.
Frieso, first prince of Friesland, arrives in 313 BC.
[p.3]
Als die roemruchtige en groote Alexander, die in het bloeyenste van zyn jeugd het meerendeel van Asia overweldigde,
When the notorious and great Alexander, who in the most florishing of his youth mastered most of Asia,
kreeg hy toeloop van veele volkeren, die hy of overwonnen hadde, of in die gewesten huis hielden;
had many groups of people come to him, that he had either mastered, or who just lived in these lands;
om zyne gelukkige wapenen tot zo veele spoedige overwinningen te helpen bevorderen.
to support his lucky armies make many fast victories.
Onder deze vrywillige krygers waren zommige van de voornaamsten uit Persien,
Among these voluntary warriors, some of the noblest from Persia,
en hunne onderhoorige Saxen (Sacæ) de minsten niet.
and their vassals the Saxons (Sacae) were not the least.
Dewelke, na dat Alexander overleden was, en die voorige verheerde volkeren, door zijner Nazaaten oneenigheid,
(...)
de handen ruim kregen, vreesden dat het hun t'eeniger tyd mogte gewrooken worden:
(...)
zy maaken derhalven een besluit, om met malkanderen, naar de wyze Van dien tyd,
(...)
een veiliger land tot hun wooninge op te zoeken.
(...)
Hunne Geleiders waren Frieso en Saxo, om hunne gezelligheid gebroeders gezegt,
Their leaders were Frieso and Saxo, called brothers because of their familiarity,
en eigentlyk zo genaamt, of naar den volsknaam van hunne landslieden zo bekent:
and originally named like that, after the name of their peoples as known:
welker eerste Persiaanen, en de andere hun gebuuren, uit de woestyn,
First the Persians, the other their neighbors from the desert,
die nu Belor heet, gemeenlyk Indiaanen genoemt zyn;
now called Belor, usually called Indians;
om dat ze van ouds, allen die naar 't Oosten woonden, den naam van Indiaanen gaven.
as since the old days all who lived in the east were called Indians.
Des zij tot hunnen sleep een vloot van 300 zeilen toetakelden,
They left with a fleet of 300 sails,
en staken er mede af van het land van Cilicien,
from the land of Cilicien,
in Notalia of kleen Asia, gelegen in de Zwarte Zee.
in Notalia or little Asia, in the Black Sea.
Van waar zy, wonderlyk omkruissende , door verscheidene woeste zeen heen slingerden, tot dat zy eindelyk,
from where they (...) finally,
na veele ondervindingen en verlies van de meeste schepen, met slechts 54 stuks in de Oostzee zyn vervallen;
after many experiences and the loss of most ships, arrived in the East-sea with only 54 ships left;
en waar van 12 op het eiland Rugen, en 18 in Pruissen zijn aangeland:
and of which 12 on the island Rugen, and 18 landed in Pruissen:
de overige 24 den Fliestroom (welke de Roomsche Schryvers den derden Mond des Rhyns noemen) inzeilende,
the other 24 sailing into the Fliestream (called third mouth of the Rhine by Roman writers),
hebben dit gewest, dat nu van hunnen naam Friesland genaamt word, aangedaan,
arrived in these lands, now called friesland after them,
landende ten west Staveren op de Kreil, daar nu de volle zee voor Enkhuizen is:
landing west of Staveren at the kreil, where is now the sea near Enkhuizen:
alwaar zy, geen menschen vindende, en na zo een kommerlyk omzwerven,
where they, not finding any people, (...)
het eerste stand greepen, en die plaatze den naam gaven van Staden.
took the first stand (...)
Daar Frieso ook een Vryhuis voor de vlugtelingen bouwde, zelve een weinig oostelyker optrok,
(...)
en een stad bouwde, die naderhand Staveren genaamt wierd.
(...)
Doch als in het volgende jaar de zomer hoogde, kwamen de Swaaven,
But in the next summer, the Swaaven came,
die hier 's zomers huis hielden en 's winters landwaards in weeken,
who resided here in summers and moved inland during winters,
om de overwateringen van de zwaare stormen:
because of the floods and heavy storms:
want het land was doe noch met geen dyken omheinigt.
the land was not yet protected by dykes.
Deze, om datze ruuwe en onervaarene krygslieden waren,
These, being rough and inexperienced warriors,
zyn ligtelyk van de Friesen op de vlugt gedreven,
have slightly been driven away by the Friesen,
die hun zetel hier nu door goede beschansingen gevestigt hadden.
who had settled here now with good protection.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
In preparation:
Family relations of Friso in "It aade Friesche Terp", compared to those in the Oera Linda-book.
### Posted 21 February 2011 - 05:41 PM
Otharus, on 21 February 2011 - 10:03 AM, said:
In preparation:
Family relations of Friso in "It aade Friesche Terp", compared to those in the Oera Linda-book.
Comparing Friso history/ mythology
of Frisian 'fantastic' historiography
with that of OLB ~ a first try.
It aade Friesche Terp (edition 1834)
p.05 Hil, his wife; they had seven sons, each ruling over one of the 7 sealands
[In OLB his wife's name is Swethirte, with whom he had 2 sons and 2 daughters. The double use of 7 sounds like mythology to me.]
.... Weemoed, daughter of other mother who died at giving birth
[OLB: oldest daughter is called WEE.MOD]
.... AEsge, son responsible for civil rights
.... Scholte, son resp. for main issues
.... Haaije, son; priest of druids, resp. for forests of idols
.... Gaele, son resp. for dykes (waterworks)
.... Hette, son resp. for tribe of Katten
[OLB: brother-in-law from first wife was HETTO]
.... Fyt (Vito) or Jutte, son who married 308 BC daughter of Bokke (Bocchus), king of Jutland
[OLB: son WITTO]
p.07 Frieso died in 245 BC after 68 years of rule, "burried stately after his fatherly Persian ways at Staveren"
[OLB: after "nearly forty years at Staveren"]
.... Adel, oldest son and successor
[same in OLB]
.... Adel married Swobyne, daughter of king of the Swaaven, their neighbors
[OLB: SVOBENE, from Saxenmarken, from the state of Suobaland]
.... Ubbe, son of Jutte (Fyt), had two sons; Fyt and Hendrik
p.08 Hendrik was going to be married in 234 BC to Signe, daughter of Finnish king, but was killed on wedding day by Granus, 5th king of the Danes, who kidnapped the bride out of Finland to marry her himself, but he died 2 years later.
.... Schotte, son of Scholte was sent to 'Schotland' in 220 BC by Adel
.... Adel died in 151 BC
p.09 Ubbe, son of Adel and Swobyne, became his successor; he founded Koln (Keulen), people of Koln were called Ubii by Romans
.... Frieso II, son of Gryns, son of Gaele, son of Haaje, son of Frieso I
.... Frieso II married 120 BC Frouw, daughter of Ubbe, settled in Westfriesland
p.10 Ubbe died in 71 BC, his son Azinga Askon was his successor
.... A.A. made war with king of Tongeren and the Baatenburgers
p.12 A.A. died in 11 AD
p.13 his successor was Diokarus Seegen, his cousin
p.14 Seegen died in 46 AD, in time of peace
.... his son Dibbald Seegen became 6th prince of the Friesen
p.16 Dibbald died in 85 AD and was burried in Staveren
p.17 As Dibbald had no children, Tabbe, one of his army commanders became his successor; he died 130 AD and was the last "prince"
.... Harke, son of Seerp was the 4th priest of Druids 'at the old court' ("op 't oude Hof")
p.18 Sinne, 5th priest of druids
... etcetera.
Oera Linda Book ~ Sandbach translation
(page numbers as in original)
[p.127]
Before Friso came to 'Friesland', he had a son and a daughter who were kidnapped by Demetrius and therefore killed themselves.
[p.144]
"Friso, who was already powerful by his troops, was chosen chief Grevetman of the districts round Staveren.
He laughed at our mode of defending our land and our sea-fights (...) [p.145] When Gosa died, the people from all parts wished to choose another mother; but Friso, who was busy establishing a kingdom for himself, did not desire to have any advice or messenger from Texland."
[p.146]
"Friso had taken here another wife, a daughter of Wilfrethe, who in his lifetime had heen chief count of Staveren. By her he had two sons and two daughters. By his wish Kornelia, his youngest daughter, was married to my brother. Kornelia is not good Frisian ; her name ought to be written Korn-helia. Weemoed, his eldest daughter, he married to Kauch. Kauch, who went to school to him, is the son of Wichhirte, the king of the Geertmen. But Kauch is likewise not good Frisian, and ought to be Kaap (Koop)."
[P.150]
"Witto, or Witte, his son, he sent to superintend. (...) Witto courted Siuchthirte and married her. Wilhem, her father, was chief Alderman of the Jutmen — that is, chief Grevetman or Count. Wilhem died shortly afterwards, and Witto was chosen in his place.
What Friso did further.
Of his first wife he still had two brothers-in-law, who were very daring. Hetto — that is, heat — the youngest, he sent as messenger to Kattaburgt, which lies far in the Saxsenmarken. (...) In the same way as he sent Hetto [P.151] to Kattaburgt, he sent Bruno — that is, brown — the other brother-in-law, to Mannagarda oord. (...) Both the brothers-in-law of Friso had married daughters of the chief princes (...)
[P.153]
"When Friso had been nearly forty years at [p.154] Staveren he died. Owing to him many of the states had been joined together again, but that we were the better for it I am not prepared to certify. Of all the counts that preceded him there was none so renowned as Friso; for, as I said before, the young maidens spoke in his praise, while the old maidens did all in their power to make him hateful to everybody. Although the old women could not prevent his meddling, they made so much fuss that he died without becoming king.
Friso, who had learned our history from the book of the Adelingen, had done everything in his power to win their friendship. His eldest son, whom he had by his wife Swethirte, he named Adel; and although he strove with all his might to prevent the building or restoring any citadels, he sent Adel to the citadel of Texland in order to make himself better acquainted with our laws, language, and customs. When Adel was twenty years old Friso [p.155] brought him into his own school, and when he had fully educated him he sent him to travel through all the states. Adel was an amiable young man, and in his travels he made many friends, so the people called him Atharik — that is, rich in friends — which was very useful to him afterwards, for when his father died he took his place without a question of any other count being chosen.
While Adel was studying at Texland there was a lovely maiden at the citadel. She came from Saxenmarken, from the state of Suobaland, therefore she was called at Texland Suobene, although her name was Ifkja. Adel fell in love with her, and she with him, but his father wished him to wait a little. Adel did as he wished ; but as soon as he was dead, sent messengers to Berthold, her father, to ask her in marriage. Berthold was a prince of high-principled feelings. He had sent his daughter to Texland in the hope that she might be chosen Burgtmaagd in her country, but when he knew of their mutual affection he bestowed his blessing upon them. Ifkja was [p.156] a clever Frisian.["FRYAS"]"
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Just thinking out loud...
OLB feels more realistic and historic, more true than "It aade Friesche Terp", but the latter, although more mythological, still seems to be partly based on historic facts.
OLB is not very positive about Friso, but also not totally negative. It describes how things were changing after he had arrived with his people.
Frisian 'fantastic' historiography (FFH) describes Friso as their founding father, as a hero. Before he arrived there would not have been much, according to their records.
FFH says nothing about a glorious Fryan pre-culture (the 'Frya-Frisians'); it is the history of the 'Friso-Frisians', who seem to have tried to erase the older history of the matriarchal Fryan culture. (By pretending it had never existed; by destroying all the old sources?)
Ironically, a similar thing happened later when the 'bible-Frisians' (with Y-chromosomes of Franks, Romans and Gauls?) wanted to erase (ignore, quash, ridicule) the history of their pre-christian ancestors, the 'Friso-Frisians'.
### Posted 22 February 2011 - 03:28 AM
Abramelin, on 21 February 2011 - 10:36 PM, said:
The Frisian historians of the sixteenth
century, differ in many respects from their predecessors. Their
knowledge was much more comprehensive, they also read Dutch and many
other foreign history books, and Caesar, Tacitus, Pliny, Strabo, etc.
influenced their works.
Yes and they also read a lot of things that we now know is nonsense.
We still have not discovered any of that in the OLB.
Quote
The Red Cliff is part of the moraine of the ice cap from the Saale - ice age. This moraine runs from Texel to Wieringen, by way of the Gaasterland cliffs via Urk, Schokland and Vollenhove to the east. The Red Cliff lies at 10 meters above Amsterdam Ordnance Datum and consists of reddish loam. Only a part of the original cliff bas remained. In the past its southern part was bare and rose from the sea like a "red cliff". The height of the cliff and its colour appealed to the imagination. It was said to be a dormant volcano belching fire in ancient times. In days of old the cliff was said to have burnt, extinguished with sacrifices made to the God Stavo.
http://www.betinking-slachbywarns.nl/tekst/EN/red_cliff.html
I have been wondering what this Red Cliff of the Frisian legends was, and I still do.
Did you check the sources of the site you referred to?
Now this is a piece of modern Frisian folklore; partly based on history, partly on mythology and partly on fantasy. (Check their "links" part...)
This part about the Red Cliff in North Holland is very obviously fantasy. Nowhere else on the internet is there any information about it and, coming from there myself, I would have heard of it. It must have some historic basis though, but I suppose it will be much more south. (French coast?)
### Posted 22 February 2011 - 11:33 AM
Abramelin, on 22 February 2011 - 10:42 AM, said:
And please, read what I quoted again... it doesn't say the Red Cliff (Roode Klif) is in North Holland, it says it part of a moraine running from Texel, and so on, to Urk and Schokland.
It's near Stavoren, in the present IJsselmeer.
Fascinating...
I found some more: references to this cliff, but if that was the original name, or that it was named after the legendary cliff, I cannot tell yet.
On the following image it's called "Clivus Ruber":
Quote
Yes, the writers of the OLB left out the obvious nonsense, like they didn't write about Friso fighting a fiery dragon, lol.
In the 19th century many theories were taken very seriously, that have LATER been proven wrong;
Serious 'knowledge' for them, obvious nonsense for us.
Ironically (again) with the OLB it could be the other way around;
Mainstream society considered it to be obvious nonsense, while we are more-and-more moving towards the conclusion that it might actually be authentic after all.
(Some of us are already beyond this conclusion.)
### Posted 23 February 2011 - 10:00 AM
Abramelin, on 22 February 2011 - 10:45 PM, said:
This thread is like a lawsuit, and we all only have circumstantial evidence to make our case.
As long as no direct evidence shows up, we will be discussing till hell freezes over.
Well, at least your idea about the OLB already evolved from:
Abramelin, on 22 June 2010 - 10:20 PM, said:
OMG, the Oera Linda Bo(o)k is a known hoax.
Just go to the Wiki page about that book, and you will know.
But any Dutch person with something resembling brains could have told you long ago; the etymology portrayed in that book is simply ridiculous.
to:
Abramelin, on 11 February 2011 - 03:33 AM, said:
People, if the Oera Linda Book is a true account of ancient European history,
it would not only change European history, it would change WORLD history.
and:
Abramelin, on 18 February 2011 - 08:12 PM, said:
Assume they concluded the manuscript dates from the 13th century. Then this thread has come to its end.
Assume they concluded the manuscript dates from the 19th century... then we will be busy discussing for another 100 pages, lol.
Though skeptical as I am, the 19th century date would not in itself prove the OLB is a hoax.
It could mean that after the 1256 AD date mentioned in the beginning of the OLB later members of the Over de linden family kept on copying the manuscript, but did not add a remark about them copying it in their copy.
Abramelin, on 22 February 2011 - 10:45 PM, said:
And that is why I keep repeating: we need some form of physical proof.
Proof like: [...]
- proof of the OLB being from the 13th century
In the following week the article about the paper and ink tests is expected to be published and as promised I will inform the forum.
Let's just hope that - if paper and ink prove to be from the 13th century - hardcore hoax-theorists will not insist that the OLB must have been created in the 19th century using 600-year old paper and ink...
Although it's sometimes frustrating to feel misunderstood, I do appreciate Abe's skepticism, as it stimulates us, the 'believers', to dig ever deeper and explain ourselves better.
I'm still busy reading some newly found sources, but would with pleasure try to answer questions about earlier posts, if some of that is not understood.
### Posted 23 February 2011 - 08:09 PM
see separate post about etymology "Heruli"
http://fryskednis.blogspot.nl/2011/03/heruli-new-etymology.html
### Posted 24 February 2011 - 03:04 AM
Abramelin, on 23 February 2011 - 09:01 PM, said:
Maybe I remember wrong, but didn't you study classical Greek??
OK, so Phaeacians should be pronounced as Faiakians. Still nothing like "Frisians".
I did exams Gymnasium in it and I also don't agree with C = K; that is with Latin, but not in the Vatican tradition.
Phaeacians =>> FAEASIANS as far as I know, which to me sounds like someone who can't pronounce R saying Frisians to me.
Quote
Btw, I thought you might like this blog: http://hanskreijns.blogspot.com/
It's from someone who also posts on the SEMafoor site (which is mainly about Delahaye related topics)
I stumbled on it earlier, will have a closer look.
Quote
A post from Goffe Jensma on that site: http://www.semafoor.net/Jensmareactie.htm
Yes, I have a print-out of that.
Quote
Just to inform you: the people who created the SEMafoor site are convinced that the OLB is a hoax, hence this article by Jensma.
I know and they are skeptical about Jensma. (I don't know if they all agree though, they seem to disagree about various topics.)
Quote
I also read somewhere - don't ask me about where - that people who where convinced of Delahaye telling the truth, advised Delahaye NOT to use the OLB to prove his point, because no scientist would ever take him seriously if he did. And it took them great pains to convince him, lol.
That's correct. Only Vandermaele continued that line. I hope his books arrive soon.
Quote
I once posted a link to an online archive of newspapers from the north of The Netherlands but lost it.
Here it is again: http://www.archiefleeuwardercourant.nl/index.do
It are the archives of the Leeuwarder Courant, Dagblad van het Noorden, and Nieuwsblad van het Noorden.
I may have a new look at that again, thanks.
### Posted 24 February 2011 - 10:06 AM
Alewyn, on 24 February 2011 - 06:09 AM, said:
Homer tells us that Ulysses was the only survivor of his expedition. So, all the stories and fantasies came from him.
Poor o'l Ulysses, therefore, either had a speach impediment or, more than likely, he was motherless drunk when he told the story.
You made my day, Alewyn, and I think you are right.
### Posted 24 February 2011 - 10:12 AM
Abramelin, on 23 February 2011 - 09:01 PM, said:
... the people who created the SEMafoor site are convinced that the OLB is a hoax...
... people who where convinced of Delahaye telling the truth, advised Delahaye NOT to use the OLB to prove his point, because no scientist would ever take him seriously if he did. And it took them great pains to convince him...
If there are (SEM-) people who believe OLB is or might be authentic, they would usually keep this a secret, as they don't want to loose their credibility.
### Posted 25 February 2011 - 02:16 AM
Quote
Φαίηκες/Φαίακες
Seeing the original spelling, I remember having translated parts of that, some 25 years ago.
I was more interested in φιλοσοφία (no not pilosopia, Tony).
C followed by e, i or y is pronounced S, so I was right when I said that Phaeacians is pronounced FAEASIANS.
In Archaic Latin, it's different:
The letter ‹C› was the western form of the Greek gamma, but it was used for the sounds /ɡ/ and /q/ alike, possibly under the influence of Etruscan, which lacked any voiced plosives. Later, probably during the 3rd century BC, the letter ‹Z› — unneeded to write Latin proper — was replaced with the new letter ‹G›, a ‹C› modified with a small vertical stroke, which took its place in the alphabet. From then on, ‹G› represented the voiced plosive /ɡ/, while ‹C› was generally reserved for the voiceless plosive /k/. The letter ‹K› was used only rarely, in a small number of words such as Kalendae, often interchangeably with ‹C›.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_alphabet
The translators/ transliterators who changed Φαίηκες/Φαίακες into Phaeacians must have been drunk.
If they would stick more to the original, there would be less confusion.
### Posted 25 February 2011 - 05:51 PM
Otharus, on 18 February 2011 - 01:16 AM, said:
... reading about the Herrels/ Heruli ('swamp'-people!?).
Whether the Oera Linda-book (OLB) is authentic or not, it did help me find a plausible answer to a question I had since I started reading about the HERULI or HERULS: What is the original meaning of their name? Even Danish specialist Troels Brandt did not seem to know.
This is what Wikipedia says:
The Heruli (...) were a nomadic Germanic people, who were subjugated by the Ostrogoths, Huns, and Byzantines in the 3rd to 5th centuries. The name is related to earl (see erilaz) and was probably an honorific military title.
Troels Brandt:
"Ellegaard claimed, that the Heruls were not a tribe or a people but a group of warriors formed by the Romans around 300 AD in Castra Batava. (...) Ellegaard's theory about the Heruls starting as a German warrior group in Castra Batava (Passau at Danube 250 west of Vienna) in the 4th century is based on a hypothetical fellowship with the Bataves in Castra Batava. However the only common stamps between Heruls and Bataves are the reports of mercenaries from Ammanius about campaigns in England and at the Rhine. Probably the Roman use of the two people together was due to their livingplaces in Frisia near the Rhine, where the Bataves were mentioned from around year 0 and the Heruls from 286 AD." (par. 1.3.1.1)
So the Heruli were a group of (traveling) warriors or mercenaries, possibly of Frisian or Fryan origin.
In the language of the OLB there are two words that would - in combination - make perfect sense, as the origin of the name "HERULI":
see separate post about etymology "Heruli"
http://fryskednis.blogspot.nl/2011/03/heruli-new-etymology.html
### Posted 27 February 2011 - 02:01 AM
Abramelin, on 26 February 2011 - 08:35 PM, said:
I have no doubt that the Romans (Latins) were in close contact with these peoples, and adopted many Celtic words that we now consider as true, orginal Latin words.
...
And that is why we think that a word that sounds similar in some (Celtic or Germanic) language to Roman Latin has been adopted from Latin.
It could be the other way round.
...
I once had a friend of mixed Iranian/Pakistan ancestry. His first name was "Kaisar".
I asked him about his first name, and he told me it meant the same as the Dutch "Keizer" or German "Kaisar", meaning 'emperor'.
And nothing like 'say-sar', or the Latin Caesar.
Many think that 'Caesar' was a Latin word, a Latin title.
Did the Romans occupy Pakistan, or Iran?? NO.
The title could have been an Indo-European word, pronounced with a -K- , not with a -C- as we are now forced to believe.
Could this be a clue?
Ottema (1876), p.34/35:
5. Is hwa sjvgun jêr kjasar, sâ mêi hi hêlpa en hêrman jeftha kêning to kjasane, thêr to âk kêren wrde.
5. Is hij zeven jaren kiezer, dan mag hij helpen een heerman of koning te kiezen en dan zelf ook gekozen worden.
### Posted 27 February 2011 - 02:24 AM
Abramelin, on 25 February 2011 - 09:26 PM, said:
Something you will not easily find on the internet: Erular/Erilar = Rune Master.
So which part means "rune" and which part "master"?
This is a later meaning, like the Greek ”Eliouroi” = ”people from the swamps” (Troels Brandt)
I was talking about the original meaning.
Quote
Did you read the pdf about the Heruli, the one that I linked to?
Almost finished. I linked to it too and quoted from it in my post. It's a long text and most interesting.
Quote
It is said they hooked up with the Danes and Frisians, but they were a different tribe.
Yes and they may all have been of 'Fryan' descent.
Quote
Think about this: are you really convinced the Frisians were nothing but warriors and mercenaries?
Does the OLB ever talk about that? I thought not.
No, I did not suggest that, only that it's the original meaning of the word Heruli, the name of a tribe of warriors and mercenaries who lived in the 3rd to 6th century AD.
As you might know by now, OLB (apart from the copyist letters) stops at about the year zero.
Idea: After a few hundred years of being army-people, they had lost their reading and writing tradition, so when most of them settled again in Scandinavia, they (had) developed their own rune-script. But their language and mythology is full of references to their 'Fryan' roots. One of the best examples: their Freyja/ Odin (various spellings) mythology.
I will come back to this.
### Posted 27 February 2011 - 02:06 PM
Otharus, on 27 February 2011 - 02:01 AM, said:
Could this be a clue?
Ottema (1876), p.34/35:
5. Is hwa sjvgun jêr kjasar, sâ mêi hi hêlpa en hêrman jeftha kêning to kjasane, thêr to âk kêren wrde.
5. Is hij zeven jaren kiezer, dan mag hij helpen een heerman of koning te kiezen en dan zelf ook gekozen worden.
I forgot to add Sandbach (1876):
5. When he has been seven years a voter he then may have a vote for the chief or king, and may be himself elected.
Let's do another word-game:
KIASAR =>> kiezer (chooser, voter)
KAISAR =>> keizer = gekozene (chosen one, elected one)?
### Posted 27 February 2011 - 04:49 PM
Otharus, on 27 February 2011 - 02:24 AM, said:
Idea: After a few hundred years of being army-people, they had lost their reading and writing tradition, so when most of them settled again in Scandinavia, they (had) developed their own rune-script. But their language and mythology is full of references to their 'Fryan' roots. One of the best examples: their Freyja/ Odin (various spellings) mythology.
There is a lot of confusion about Nordic/ Germanic (Herulic?) mythology.
The following is copied from "The Heruls" by Troels Brandt, page 100:
Did the son of Thor (Jupiter), Odin (Mercurius), originally marry the daughter of Njord, Freya? This would make sense as Odin's wife Frigga is only connected with a couple of stories, and as Freya's husbond in the late myths was called Od and had disappeared. Frea is often regarded as the background of "frau", which was the role of Frigga, and in the old Origo Gentis Longobardorum Frea was the wife of Wodan.
It is remarkable that no OLB-researcher, as far as I know, from Ottema up to Jensma, has made a real connection with the mythological Freya/ Frea/ Freyja/ Frigga (etc.), nor connected the word "Od" from OLB's creation myth to the "Od" character from mythology. (Or did Overwijn, Abe? I have not read his book.)
Ottema 1876, p.12/13:
Ring as hja rip wêron krêjon hja früchda ånd nochta anda drâma Wr.aldas.
Od* trâd to-ra binna:
ånd nw bârdon ek twilif svna ånd twilif togathera ek joltid twên.
Thêrof send alle månneska kêmen.
* Ottema's footnote to "Od": Od, wortel van het Lat. odi, ik haat.
Translated: Od, root of the Lat[in] Odi, I hate.
Zoodra zij volwassen waren, kregen zij vermaak en genoegen in de droomen van Wralda.
Haat trad tot haar binnen.
En nu baarden zij elk twaalf zonen en twaalf dochteren, elke juultijd een paar.
Daarvan zijn alle menschen gekomen.
Sandbach 1876, ch.13:
As soon as they were full grown they took pleasure and delight in the visions of Wr-alda.
Hatred found its way among them.
They each bore twelve sons and twelve daughters — at every Juul-time a couple.
Thence come all mankind.
As I have argued before in this thread, as well as in a video, these translations are wrong.
(In the original it says: "... drâma. Wr.aldas Od..."; a point before and NOT after "Wr.aldas". And Od will not have meant "hate".)
Most relevant though, is to conclude that 19th century intellectuals were not as omniscient as Abe likes to believe, as no-one ever made the obvious link from this "Od" to Od, Odr, Odin (etc.) from Nordic mythology, often mentioned as Freya's lover or husband.
### Posted 28 February 2011 - 05:53 AM
Alewyn, on 28 February 2011 - 04:57 AM, said:
In short, the “Middel Sea” was the “Mediterranean” which should now be abundantly clear to everybody.
Abundantly clear indeed. Thanks Alewyn.
Finding ever more links between the our 'Frisians' or 'Fryans' and the 'Danes' or 'Heruli'(?).
It will take me some time to digest all of it, but can't wait to share some of the goodies with the forum.
Here's one, again from: "The Heruls" by Troels Brandt (page 109):
Finally the basical myths of the religion are supposed to be developed in a much older pagan environment, where no one would be expected to read antique historians and combine them in that way. The picture-stones at Gotland indicate that antique legends were known early, but not necessarily from books. Dudo confirmed only 40 years after Denmark was officially baptized, that the Danes boasted of Greek ancestors, so already at that time the Dacian tradition was well established without any connection with Procopius and his Heruls. Thus Snorri did not invent the southeastern connection. On the contrary his explanations and different versions show doubt in his mind about the Troy-legend, but not about men from the region of Tanais becoming kings of Scandinavia.
### Posted 28 February 2011 - 08:56 AM
Abramelin, on 27 February 2011 - 08:32 PM, said:
I think you all will find the next website of interest:
Homer's North Atlantic Odyssey?
http://codexceltica.blogspot.nl/2009/10/homers-north-atlantic-odyssey.html
That particular page deals with theories about Homer/Iliad/Odyssey in the north, and about Atlantis in the north.
It's sort of a summary of all those theories, with the necessary discussion/critique, of course.
Of interest indeed, thanks!
Here's a selection of some (imo) relevant fragments.
(Also see my next post.)
The opposing interpretation would be that the entire genesis of the original, ur-Odyssey was northern-European, deriving from proto-Celtic/-Germanic or other early Nordic seafaring peoples. This is how the Iliad ends up being given an entirely northern interpretation, for it makes more sense in terms of fitting the idea of a Nordic origin for the epic than does the Odyssey, whose voyage begins with known places in the Med. One literary-transmission theory is that early Greek sailors might have come for long-distance trade in tin etc, and also took this wonderful epic tale back with them, transforming it into a national epic when it was written up in verse. If the northern peoples preferred not to write out their compositions, relying on prodigious feats of memory (as Caesar said of the Keltic bards), over time the original northern version could have been lost in wars and migrations. Another north-to-south literary-transmission theory is that the northern tribes were the ‘Sea Peoples’ mentioned in Egyptian records who swept south to attack Greece and Egypt around 1200 BC, obliterating the earlier Greeks, who assimilated the northerners’ campfire tales and made them their own when they flourished again as a nation after the Greek Dark Ages. Each theory has its proponents.
The second variant of this north-to-south literary-transmission theory can be found in an Italian book suggesting a largely Finnish setting, which got the usual dismissive reception (“Finnish scholars were quick to label it an interesting joke.”) It’s another “northern Troy” book, here arguing for a Scandinavian-Baltic rather than a Celtic-British setting, Troy being identified with Toy or Toija in Finland. The first of author Felice Vinci’s books on the topic, his 1993 Homericus Nuncius, was evidently not translated, but his 2nd, his 1998 Omero nel Baltico was published in English in the US in 2005 as The Baltic Origins Of Homer's Epic Tales: The Iliad, the Odyssey, And The Migration Of Myth.
Vinci is not a Finn, but an Italian nuclear engineer, from Rome, and is not just - as is so often the case - nationalistically promoting his own homeland as the cradle of European civilisation. According to Vinci, Odysseus himself was Dutch. His argument is that a mighty northern Bronze Age civilization invaded the Mediterranean, taking with them their epic tale of a great war in the Baltic, and its sequel, concerning the seafaring wanderings of one survivor between the Gulf of Finland and the Baltic. The place names were adapted into Greek, but the geographical detail simply did not fit the Med.
This is a theory that was foreshadowed in several books by a German pastor, amateur archaeologist and classical scholar, Jurgen Spanuth (1907-98), though his thesis was that these events survive in distorted version not just in Homer but in Plato’s Atlantis parable. Spanuth compared Homer’s and Plato’s descriptions on a point-for-point basis, and suggested both derived from a common origin. This was the rise and fall of a mighty Bronze Age seafaring nation based in and around Jutland, which fell when an ‘Atlantean’ North Sea flood drove them southward into the Med, where the Egyptians defeated these invading ‘Sea Peoples’ in the Nile delta. He refined his thesis in several books also published in English, from Das Entratselte Atlantis, 1953 [Atlantis-The Mystery Unravelled, 1956] through Die Atlanter [Atlantis Of The North, 1976/79], now all out of print. He argued when the Egyptians defeated the Sea Peoples, they recorded their tale of how their empire collapsed in a flood, and Plato’s source his uncle Solon the Lawgiver, picked it up, just as Solon said, on a visit to Egypt, and Solon and then Plato each wrote up a version.
(...)
This controversial north-to-south cultural-transmission theory is centuries older than German nationalism. There had been an attempt centuries before to place the inspiration for Plato’s Atlantis in the Baltic, which was the grandaddy of all these books. In the 17th C, the Swedish allround Renaissance scholar (physician, astronomer, archaeo-historian etc) Olaus or Olof Rudbeck caused consternation with his northern-thesis 4-part, 2,500 page work Atland eller Manheim, translated from Swedish into Latin for scholarly use as Atlantica. This cited linguistic parallels between Swedish, Hebrew etc to claim the oldest district of his home town Uppsala was center of 'lost Atlantis' and thus - by the extravagant logic of cultural diffusion - Sweden was the cradle of western civilisation going back to Adam and Eve.
(...) Like nearly all successful writers in this field, Rudbeck did not simply invent from whole cloth, but drew on still-unresolved mysteries from the past.
Troy is mentioned twice in the OLB, but it does NOT suggest where it might have been. It is therefore possible, that Troy was in eastern England, as Iman Wilkens claims. (I have not read his book.)
Source: East-wall Fryasburch, 1187 BC (OLB orig. pag.75)
[Ottema p.104]
Vmbe-r to fensane hêder fêle skåta mith brocht, boppa ella fâmne syrhêdum, alsa thêr in wralda navt skênener mâkad wrde. Hja kêmon fon Troja en stede tham tha Krêkalandar innimth hêdon.
[Ottema p.105]
Om die te verkrijgen had hij vele schatten medegebracht, bovenal vrouwen sieraden, gelijk er in de wereld niet schooner gemaakt werden. Zij waren afkomstig van Troje, eene stad, die de Krekalanders hadden ingenomen.
[Sandbach p.105]
For this purpose he had brought great treasures with him, above all, jewels for women more beautiful than had ever been seen before. They were from Troy, a town that the Greeks had taken.
Source: anonymus, ca. 0 BC (OLB orig. pag. 199)
[Ottema p.238]
Tha hêinda Krêkalanda håvon vs to fara allêna to hêrath, men sunt vnhüglika tidum håvon ra thêr âk åfterkvmanda fon Lyda ånd fon Finda nitherset, fon tha lersta kêmon to tha lersta en êle hâpe fon Trôje. Trôje alsa heth êne stêde hêten, thêr et folk fon tha fêre Krêkalanda innomth ånd vrhomelt heth. Thâ tha Trôjana to tha hêinda Krêkalandum nestled wêron, tha håvon hja thêr mith tid ånd flit êne sterke stêd mith wâlla ånd burgum bvwed, Rome, that is Rum, hêten.
[Ottema p.239]
De heinde Krekalanden hebben te voren ons alleen toebehoord, maar sedert onheugelijke tijden hebben zich daar ook nakomelingen van Lyda en Finda nedergezet, van deze laatsten kwamen eindelijk een heele hoop van Troje. Troja alzoo heeft eene stad geheeten, die het volk van de verre Krekalanden (Griekenland) heeft ingenomen en verwoest. Toen de Trojanen in de heinde Krekalanden genesteld waren, toen hebben zij daar met tijd en vlijt eene sterke stad met wallen en burgten gebouwd, Rome, dat is Ruim, geheeten.
[Sandbach p.239]
The Krekalanders [sic!] formerly belonged to us only, but from time immemorial descendants of Lyda and Finda have established themselves there. Of these last there came in the end a whole troop from Troy. Troy is the name of a town that the far Krekalanders (Greeks) had taken and destroyed. When the Trojans had nestled themselves among the near Krekalanders, with time and industry they built a strong town with walls and citadels named Rome, that is, Spacious.
Relevant part of Ottema's introduction, translated by Sandbach:
Although a great portion of the first part of the work — the book of Adela — belongs to the mythological period before the Trojan war, there is a striking difference between it and the Greek myths. The Myths have no dates, much less any chronology, nor any internal coherence of successive events. The untrammelled fancy develops itself in every poem separately and independently. The mythological stories contradict each other on every point. "Les Mythes ne se tiennent pas," is the only key to the Greek Mythology. Here, on the contrary, we meet with a regular succession of dates starting from a fixed period — the destruction of Atland, 2193 before Christ. The accounts are natural and simple, often naive, never contradict each other, and are always consistent with each other in time and place. As, for instance, the arrival and sojourn of Ulysses with the Burgtmaagd Kalip at Walhallagara (Walcheren), which is the most mythical portion of all, is here said to be 1005 years after the disappearance of Atland, which coincides with 1188 years before Christ, and thus agrees very nearly with the time at which the Greeks say the Trojan war took place. The story of Ulysses was not brought here for the first time by the Romans. Tacitus found it already in Lower Germany (see " Germania," cap. 3), and says that at Asciburgium there was an altar on which the names of Ulysses and his father Laertes were inscribed.
### Posted 28 February 2011 - 05:48 PM
Abramelin, on 28 February 2011 - 02:31 PM, said:
I am sort of convinced you simply ignore what I have been saying here all along: that several writers worked on the OLB.
Abe, you have suggested several times that you consider the Frisian Joost Halbertsma (1789-1869) to be the mastermind, the main suspect of having created the supposed OLB-hoax.
I invite you to have a look into his mind and then reconsider the plausibility of this.
The following is copied from his publication "LETTERKUNDIGE NAOOGST" (1840), a study of Frisian poetry and literature and the meaning of words (page 138). Translation into English, followed by the original.
Improvised translation
"Tzjerl. The Latin gerulus, a carrier, is like the Germanic carle, Anglosaxon céorle, English churl [tshurl] and this Tjzerl or tzjirl; meaning a man, that by his birth is doomed to carry and tote, or to general land-labour. We already saw that the word with the Anglosaxons and the Frisians had the meaning of a service-man, with or without the prefix hûs. But these huis-kerels, that is, house-servants, became besides fieldworkers, also servants around the house for the landlords and later also for helpers in battle. King Aelfric therefore used the term æcer-céorl, akkerkerel or farmer, as opposed to hûs-cèorl. That's why in medieval Latin hus-carla not only means the man, who is part of the court of a prince or lord, but also the warrior from the court, or one of the bodyguards. Du Cange gave an example where the king gave certain orders to all soldiers of his court, that in Danish are called hûs-carlen. Gabbema (...) shows the tzirlen as meaning fight-mates, and Gysbert uses it in a similar sense like comrade, fellow, loyal mate. The Hollanders say in that same sense "kereltje" to the children, and the Friezen Tzirl to a grown up man. Tzirl is more proud and more masculine than Kereltje. Friesland was the most aristocratic nation of the world, yet so much tempered by democracy, that the farmer calls his landlord Tzerl with the deepest respect. This cultural spirit, still owned by the English, was the result of these peoples being ruled by the ancient duces, mentioned by Tacitus."
Dutch
"Tzjerl. Het Latijnsche gerulus, een drager, staat over tegen het Germaansche carle, Angels, céorle, Eng. churl [tshurl] en dit Tjzerl of tzjirl; duidende dus eigenlijk een man aan, die door zijne geboorte tot dragen en sjouwen, of tot gemeenen veldarbeid, gedoemd is. Wij hebben reeds gezien, dat het woord bij de Angelsaxen en Friezen de beteekenis van zulk eenen dienstman bezat, het zij dan met of zonder vooraanzetting van hûs. Maar die huis-kerels, dat is, huis-knechten, wierden behalve tot den veldarbeid, bij de groote heeren vervolgens ook tot huisdiensten, en eindelijk tot helpers in den strijd gebruikt. Koning Aelfric sprak daarom al van eenen æcer-céorl, akkerkerel of boer, in tegenstelling met een hûs-cèorl. Van daar beteekent in het middeneeuwsch Latijn hus-carla niet alleen den man, die tot den hofstoet van een prins of groot heer behoort, maar ook den krijgsman uit de hofhouding, die tot de lijfwacht behoorde. Du Cange haalt daartoe onder anderen eene plaats aan, waarin de koning aan al de soldaten van zijne huishouding, welke men in het Deensch hûs-carlen noemt, zeker bevel geeft. Bij Gabbema (...) komen de tzirlen dan ook voor als strijdgenooten, en in dergelijken zin van kameraad, beste, trouwe maat, neemt het ook Gysbert. De Hollanders zeggen in dien zelfden zin kereltje tegen de kinders, waarin de Friezen Tzirl tot een volwassen man. Tzirl is deftiger en mannelijker dan Kereltje. Friesland was het aristocratischste land der wereld, doch zoo sterk getemperd door de democratie, dat de boer behoudens de diepste achting zijnen landheer Tzerl noemt. Deze volksgeest, die nog aan de Engelschen eigen is, was het uitvloeisel van het staan dezer volkstammen onder de aloude duces, van welke Tacitus spreekt.
Some conclusions
1)
Halbertsma starts with comparing this Frisian word "Tzjerl" with its counterparts in Latin, Germanic, Anglosaxon and English. He emphatically leaves out the Dutch "Kerel". Later he mentions that the Hollanders call their children "kereltje", but he immediately adds that the Frisian word is so much more masculine and proud.
In the OLB, the version of this word is KERDEL and it is used only twice:
(Fryan) KERDEL = (Dutch) kerel = (German) Kerl = (Swedish) kille = (Frisian) = tzjerl
(the modern English churl has a negative meaning, but apparently in the 19th century it was still a positive term)
Related names: Karel, Karl, Carl, Charles, Carolus, Carlos
transliteration Ottema, 1876:
[p.041] Jahwêder jong kerdel âch en brud to sêka ånd is er fif ånd twintich sa âcht-er en wif to håva.
[p.119] Thâ hja landa hipte-n jong kerdel wal vp. In sina handa hêdi-n skild, thêrvp was bråd åend salt lêid.
Now imagine this Halbertsma, being a proud nationalsist Frisian, who liked to believe that his Frisian language was older than the language of the Hollanders that he must have hated or at least despised so much. And he has a little obsession with this word tzjerl (in his beloved English: churl).
Why would he, writing his political and/or cultural-historical masterpiece use a version of this word that is much closer to the Hollandic KEREL that to his Frisian TZJERL? And he could easily have used this word many times, preferrably in combination with "HûS-", but no, it's only used twice and only in the context of a young man, and hardly as the hard working or brave, proud loyal warrior that he described in his 1840 essay.
2)
He proudly calls Friesland the most aristocratic nation of the world and he does not seem very pleased with the democratic principle. The OLB does not reflect these sentiments at all.
3)
He suggests that the respect that the Frisians and English still have for their landlords stems from the time of the DUCES from the Roman times (reminds me of Mussolini LOL). How do you think the Folkmothers and the free fryans from the OLB would have felt about those 'duces'? That was a rhetorical question indeed.
So, in this short sample, there's already three reasons to dismiss the theory that Halbertsma would have been involved in the creation of the OLB.
Even über-hoaxtheorist Jensma did not consider Halbertsma a serious candidate for the job.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
And no, I didn't recieve news about the paper and ink study yet.
Don't worry, you'll know only a few hours later than me.
### Posted 28 February 2011 - 06:02 PM
Otharus, on 28 February 2011 - 05:48 PM, said:
(Fryan) KERDEL = (Dutch) kerel = (German) Kerl = (Swedish) kille = (Frisian) = tzjerl = (English) churl?
This reminds me of a realization I had earlier ~ ~ ~
An important and obvious reason why the most powerful members of the 19th century proud nationalist Frisian nobility (and their followers) so fanatically rejected the Oera Linda-book is this:
The language of the OLB is too much like Hollandic, which is more like Westfrisian and Flemmish (or Nethersaxon) and not enough like their beloved Frysk (or the East-Frisian 'dialect').
### Posted 01 March 2011 - 07:29 AM
Alewyn, on 28 February 2011 - 06:51 PM, said:
The word that is causing the confusion is "westwards". In my book I suggested that this may have been a transcription error, but it is anybody's guess.
It's not confusing, nor an error.
If from Holland you follow the coast (south-) westwards (as most Frisians would have done to go there), the Middel(-landic) Sea starts at the Strait of Gibraltar; the utter west part of the Middelsea a.k.a. Mediterranean. I explained this four months ago and showed this on a map for the ones who have never seen a map of Europe before.
Otharus, on 25 October 2010 - 05:49 PM, said:
East; utter east of Gulf of Finland
West; utter west of Mediterranean
So basically the whole coastline from East Estonia to Southern Spain.
Otharus, on 25 October 2010 - 06:42 PM, said:
### Posted 01 March 2011 - 07:31 AM
Alewyn, on 28 February 2011 - 07:09 PM, said:
You forgot to mention that he was also a church minister albeit not a very succesful one. Why would he have attempted to start a new religion (The reason given by Jensma for Haverscmidt) and then only when he was already 78 years old. The OLB manuscript appeared 2 years before his death.
There's an abundance of reasons why he could not have done it.
I hope you're not asking me to give all of them.
Quote
Not even Ottema considered him as a possible "hoaxer".
Ottema did not consider anyone a possible hoaxer.
Why would he waste his time with that?
He knew OLB had to be authentic and he was right.
### Posted 01 March 2011 - 07:32 AM
Abramelin, on 28 February 2011 - 07:50 PM, said:
you must have ignored what I said about Halbertsma loving the Rüstringer dialect. And THAT is where he got that word, "kerdel" from.
That dictionary does not even say Kerdel is Rustringian, it's vaguely referring to it.
The whole dictonary only has this one reference to "Kerdel", but 86 times "Kerel", which must have been the Rostringian version, so just like Hollandic.
There's many Rüstringer words that are completely different in OLB. Get over it.
Ok, I'll give just one beautiful example of how OLB is more like the western varieties of Frisian that the eastern ones.
Rostringer: ESKRIUIN
OLB shows different varieties, but not one single time the Rostringer variety.
If Halbertsma made the OLB, and if he loved Rostringian, he would surely have added that variety too.
OLB, original pagenumbers
SKREEVEN (Hidde, Liko, p.44,45,46,68, etc.; this variety is most common!)
SKREEVVEN (Hidde)
ASKRIVEM (p.4)
ASKRYWEN (p.5)
ESKREEVEN (p.47,53)
(N.B. synonym: WRYT/WRIT)
English = written
Dutch: geschreven
Afrikaans: geskryf
German: geschrieben
Danish = skrevet
Current Westfrisian (North-Holland): skreeven!!!
(I grew up in the area where this dialect is still spoken)
Quote
I have posted stuff that helped you all in your firm belief in the OLB.
Why is that? Because I have nothing to defend, I am investigating.
No that's not why.
If you could find stuff that would help you in your belief you would rather post that instead.
It is because it's much easier to find proof that OLB is authentic, than that it is a hoax.
Why that is? Because OLB is authentic and not a hoax.
### Posted 01 March 2011 - 07:34 AM
Abramelin, on 28 February 2011 - 07:21 PM, said:
I have explained about possible motives of Halbertsma, I have mentioned his love for the Rustringer dialect...
I suppose you got this from Menno Knul, but where did he get it from? I can't find anything to support this.
Second, and more importantly, the language of OLB is not at all more similar to this Rustringer dialect than to other Old-Frisian dialects from the time of the Christenings. I have the strong impression that Fryan is way more like old-Westfrisian (no, not Westerlauwers Frysk) and old-Nethersaxon, something Halbertsma would have hated, just like Beckering Vinkers c.s. did. But we'd need a linguist who is not emotionally attached to this to sort this out.
I'm sorry for this librarian Menno Knul because he must have worked like a monk, but I can't take him seriously.
### Posted 01 March 2011 - 07:37 AM
Alewyn, on 28 February 2011 - 08:56 PM, said:
Otharus is the first one who agrees with me on occasion but even he hasn't given my book any credit in public.
Maybe I don't know what "giving credit" means where you live.
I think I'm one of the few here who actually paid for his copy of your book, and it was good value for my money.
Furthermore, I have:
- complimented you several times;
Example 20 october: Congratulations Alewyn with the treasure you put together!
- quoted from your book and defended it, for example recently your Frisland theory
- provided you with plenty of ammo to defend yourself from skeptics
- worked like a madman giving you and other researchers on this forum (that started with discussing your book) access to Dutch sources by translating them (and improving existing OLB translations), so you can write even better books about it in the future (which I hope you will).
As far as I know, you are the first one to "prove" OLB authentic in an English book, but it BEGS for improvement.
You might already be working on that.
The best credit I can give you today is that your book inspired this discussion, for which I am most grateful.
We have made a lot of progress already. We can all give eachother credit, but what good is that for?
If there's anyone who deserves credit here (posthumously), it's Jan Ottema.
### Posted 01 March 2011 - 07:39 AM
Abramelin, on 01 March 2011 - 02:54 AM, said:
I didn't say that at all.
OK, maybe you should read the pdf (photocopy) instead.
That was the only reference to "kerdel" in the pdf-file you linked to.
It doesn't say that "kerdel" is Rustringian, that would be "kerel", just like in dutch, as said.
### Posted 02 March 2011 - 06:29 PM
Frana's prophecy ~ fragment (591 BC)
1. OLB original manuscript p.83-84, as translitterated by Ottema
2. Ottema (1876) p.115-117, with suggested corrections
3. Sandbach (1876) p.115-117, with suggested corrections
Vndera tydum that Aldland svnken is,
In de tijden, dat Atland [Aldland] verzonken is,
At the time of the submersion of Atland [Aldland],
stand thju forma spêke fon thet Jol an top.
stond de eerste spaak van het Juul [Jol] in top.
the first spoke of the Juul [Jol] stood at the top.
Thêrnêi is hju del gvngon ånd vsa frydom mith tham.
Daarna is zij nedergegaan en onze vrijheid met haar.
After that it went down, and our freedom with it.
(...)
Alle wla skêdnese tham forsunnen send
Alle vuile geschiedenissen, die verzonnen zijn
All the stories [pseudohistories] that have been written [made up]
vmbe tha forsta ånd prestera to boga,
om de vorsten en priesteren te roemen,
in praise of the princes and priests
skilun an logha ofred wertha.
zullen aan de vlam geofferd worden.
shall be committed [offered] to the flames.
Forth skilun al thinra bern mith frêtho lêva.
Voortaan zullen alle uwe kinderen in vrede leven.
Thenceforth [all] your children shall live in peace.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Frana thought each spoke of the wheel represented a 1000 years.
Could it be 700?
### Posted 03 March 2011 - 06:02 PM
Alewyn, on 03 March 2011 - 12:35 PM, said:
From my iterpretation of Hettema's description of Halbertsma, the latter was a man of integrity. He loved the Frisian language and tried to rekindle it. He translated work from other languages into contemporary Frisian. He however did not hide this fact as you would like to insinuate. He was quite open about it that he borrowed his work from other languages. See above "The most difficult in this was to find pieces,"
Well done Alewyn, both translation and conclusion.
### Posted 04 March 2011 - 03:09 AM
Abramelin, on 03 March 2011 - 08:48 PM, said:
I am getting really very curious about the results of the research done on the OLB.
I don't know if you are still in India, but if you want I can try to call the Koninklijke Bibliotheek ("Royal Library") and ask them about it.
If you are ok with that, then please send me their telephone number in a pm.
I live in 'Sweatlake City', and I can even travel from there to The Hague, but you will have to inform me about your contact with them.
Thanks for the offer. I'm curious too, but not impatient.
I understand and respect that they need some (extra) time to put their finds (and their consequences) into (diplomatic?) words.
If the outcome would have been that it's as old as was always believed by the mainstream, an article with that conclusion would have been an easy job...
I will email my contact again and gently ask for news, today or tomorrow. I know how it is with deadlines. He promised to inform me so I will give him some space.
Something you could do though, is go and have a look at that information about Pharismanes. That could be very interesting for the forum too.
Abramelin, on 17 February 2011 - 08:35 PM, said:
Pharismanes is Friso
Project Genetische Genealogie in Nederland (haplotype i). De auteur meent dat Friezen één gezamenlijke voorvader kennen; de Perzische edelman Pharismanes. Germanen kunnen op grond van die volksnaam uit dezelfde voorvaders stammen. De publicatie is verkrijgbaar voor 10 euro bij de auteur of in te zien op een van onderstaande locaties:
...
Kon. Bibl. Den Haag
### Posted Yesterday, 08:01 AM
Abramelin, on 05 March 2011 - 06:47 PM, said:
The OLB talks about lots of things, and in a lot of detail, but never do we read anything about megalithic structures, or how they were constructed.
The first text that was copied to be saved in 'the book of Adela's followers', is the "Forma Skêdnise", the "Earliest History" (Ottema/Sandbach p.10-13, original p.5-6, see below, few corrections added).
This obviously is a pseudo- (or fantasy based) history (or as the Fryans themselves would say, an wla skêdnese).
It is suggested that Frya and her two 'sisters' were the first people, that before them there was nothing. It's not much less than a deification, something she would not have liked herself as indicated by her own Tex.
What were the post-deluvian Fryans trying to hide and forget, in the 49th year of Fåsta's 'reign'?
Who was Frya really, was she a historical mother at all?
Is the Frya of the 'earliest history' ment to be a different (earlier) one then the one who wrote the Tex and drowned in the flood?
Who was/were the father(s) of Frya's children really and who were her parents?
Did she indeed have a twin-brother as some of the Nordic mythology suggests?
If the Fryans believed that Wr.alda alone was the bisittar of loft, wêter, lând ånd fjur (Tex Fryas #5, p.12 of original), that Wralda controlled the elements, why - in their perception - would he have caused the Great Flood? Was it a punishment for something? Had they done something wrong?
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Thit stand vppa tha wâgum et Fryasburch to Texland askrywen, thåt stêt âk to Stâvia ånd to Mêdêas blik.
Dit stond op de wanden der Fryasburg te Texland geschreven, dat staat ook te Stavia, ook te Medeasblik.
This was inscribed upon the walls of Fryasburg in Texland, as well as at Stavia and Medeasblik.
Thåt was Frya his dêi ånd to thêre stonde was et vrlêden sjvgun wâra sjvgun jêr, thåt Fåsta was anståld as folksmoder nêi Fryas jêrta.
Het was Fryasdag en te dier tijd was het zeven maal zeven jaren geleden, dat Festa was aangesteld als volksmoeder, naar Fryas begeerte.
It was Frya's day, and [at that time] seven times seven years had elapsed since Festa was appointed Volksmoeder [Folksmother] by the desire of Frya.
Thju burch Mêdêasblik was rêd ånd en fâm was kêren. Nw skolde Fåsta thju nêja foddik vpstêka, ånd thâ thåt dên was an åjnwarda fon thåt folk,
De burgt Medeasblik was gereed en eene maagd [fam] was gekozen. Nu zoude Festa hare nieuwe lamp opsteken, en toen dat gedaan was in tegenwoordigheid van het volk,
The citadel of Medeasblik was ready, and a Burgtmaagd [Fam] was chosen. Festa was about to light her new lamp, and when she had [that was] done so in the presence of all the people,
thâ hrop Frya fon hira wâkståre, sâ thåt allera månnalik thåt hêra machte: Fåsta nim thinra stifte ånd writ tha thinga thêr ik êr navt sedsa ne machte.
toen riep Frya van hare waakstar, zoodat iedereen het hooren konde: Festa neem uwe stift en schrijf de dingen, die ik [eerder] niet zeggen mocht.
Frya called from her watch-star, so that every one could hear it: "Festa, take your style and write the things, that I may not speak [could not say earlier]."
Fåsta dêde alsa hja boden wårth. Sâ send wy Fryas bårn an vsa forma skêdnise kêmen.
Festa deed alzoo als haar geboden was. Zoo zijn wij Fryas kinderen aan onze vroegste geschiedenis gekomen.
Festa [Fåsta] did as she was bid, and thus we became Frya's children, and [begot] our earliest history began.
Thåt is vsa forma skêdnise.
Dit is onze vroegste geschiedenis.
This is our earliest history.
Wr.alda tham allêna god ånd êvg is, mâkade t.anfang, dana kêm tid, tid wrochte alle thinga âk jrtha. Jrtha bârde alle gârsa, krûdon ånd boma, allet djara kwik ånd allet årge kwik.
Wralda, die alleen goed en eeuwig is maakte den aanvang, alsdan kwam de tijd, de tijd wrochte alle dingen, en ook de aarde, de aarde baarde alle gras, kruiden en boomen, al het liefelijk gedierte en al het booze gedierte.
Wr-alda, who alone is eternal and good, made the beginning. Then commenced time. Time wrought all things, even the earth. The earth bore grass, herbs, and trees, all useful and all noxious animals.
Alhwat god ånd djar is, brocht hju by dêgum ånd alhwat kwâd ånd årg is, brocht hju thes nachtis forth. Afteret twilifte jol-fêrste bârde hja thrja mangêrta.
Alles wat goed en liefelijk is, bragt zij bij dag voort, en alles wat boos en kwaad is, bragt zij bij nacht voort. Na het twaalfde Juulfeest bragt zij voort drie maagden:
All that is good and useful she brought forth by day, and all that is bad and injurious by night. After the twelfth Juulfeest she brought forth three maidens:
Lyda wårth ut glyande, Finda wårth ut hêta ånd Frya ut warme stof.
Lyda uit gloeijende stof, Finda uit heete stof, en Frya uit warme stof.
Lyda out of fierce heat. [glowing,] Finda out of strong heat. [hot,] Frya out of moderate heat [warm matter].
... etcetera
### Posted Yesterday, 08:02 AM
Otharus, on 06 March 2011 - 08:01 AM, said:
It is suggested that Frya and her two 'sisters' were the first people, that before them there was nothing. It's not much less than a deification, something she would not have liked herself as indicated by her own Tex.
In the OLB there are three examples of negative sentiments about deification, and still this is exactly what happened, first with Frya, later with Wodin, Neph-Tunis, Min-erva/ (Ny-) Hellenia all the way up to Jesus of Nazareth or Christ.
Defication Wodin
[Ottema/ Sandbach p.79/ orig. p.55]
Wodin (...) Sin rik hilde sjvgun jêr, thâ vrdwind-ir.
Wodin (...) Zijn rijk duurde zeven jaren, toen verdween hij.
Wodin (...) His reign lasted seven years, and then he disappeared.
Thene Mâgy sêide that-er mong hjara godon vpnimeth wêre,
De Magy zeide dat hij onder hunne goden was opgenomen,
The Magy said that he was taken up by their gods
ånd that hi fon thêr over hjam welda,
en dat hij van daar over hen heerschte,
and still reigned over us [from there],
men vs folk lakton vmbe tin tâl.
maar ons volk lachte om zijne taal.
but our people laughed at what they said.
Defication Tünis
[Ottema/ Sandbach p.97/ orig. p.69]
Thi kåning was fon Tünis ofstamed,
De koning was een afstammeling van Teunis,
The king was a descendant of Teunis,
sâ wi lêter hêrdon,
gelijk wij later hoorden.
as we were afterwards informed [heard later];
men til thju tha prestera en kåning wilde håve
Maar omdat de priesters een koning wilden hebben,
but as the priests wished to have a king,
thêr alderlangne nêi hjara bigrip wêre,
die daar naar hun begrip van overlang was (?)
who, according to their ideas, was of long descent,
alsa hêde hja Tünis to en gode up hêjad,
hadden zij Teunis tot een God verheven,
they deified Teunis,
to årgnisse sinra folgar.
tot ergernis van zijne volgers.
to the vexation of his followers.
Defication Hellênja or Minerva
[Ottema/ Sandbach p.101/ orig. p.72]
Thâ Hellênja jefta Minerva sturven was,
Toen Hellenia of Minerva gestorven was,
When Hellenia or Min-erva [had] died,
tha bâradon tha prestera as jef hja mith vs wêron,
hielden de priesters zich als of zij met ons waren,
the priests pretended to be with us,
til thju that hel blika skolde
en opdat zulks duidelijk blijken zoude,
and in order to make it appear so,
havon hja Hellênia to-ne godene ute kêth.
hebben zij Hellenia tot eene Godin uitgeroepen.
they deified Hellenia.
(...)
Men wi nildon Minerva navt as êne godene navt bikånna,
Maar wij wilden Minerva niet als eene Godin erkennen,
But we would not recognise Min-erva as a goddess,
nêidam hja selva seid hêde
naardien zij zelve ons gezegd had,
because she herself had told us
that nimman god jefta fvlkvma wêsa ne kvnde thån Wr.aldas gâst.
dat niemand goed of volkomen kon wezen, als Wraldas geest.
that no one could be perfectly good except the spirit of Wr-alda.
### Posted Yesterday, 10:06 AM
Otharus, on 06 March 2011 - 08:01 AM, said:
It is suggested that Frya and her two 'sisters' were the first people, that before them there was nothing. It's not much less than a deification, something she would not have liked herself as indicated by her own Tex.
How the lie lived forth...
(Indirect) references to the "Forma Skêdnise" further in the OLB.
1) in book Apol-lânja Oera-Linda
[Ottema/ Sandbach p.143, original p.103]
Trâst thêr fâm wêre to Stavia (...) sêide
Troost, die Maagd was te Stavia (...) zeide:
Troost, who was the maid of Stavia (...) said,
Thâ Frya bern was, stand vs moder naked ånd blât, vnbihod to jenst tha strêlum thêre svnne.
toen Frya geboren was, stond onze moeder naakt en bloot, onbehoed tegen de stralen der zon.
When Frya was born, our mother stood naked and bare, unprotected from the rays of the sun.
Ninman macht hju frêja ånd thêr wêre ninman thêr hja help macht lêna.
Niemand kon zij vragen, en er was niemand, die haar hulp verleenen konde.
She could ask no one, and there was no one who could give her any help.
Thâ gvng Wr.alda to ånd wrochte in hjra mod nigung ånd liavde anggost ånd skrik.
Toen ging Wralda heen en wrocht in haar gemoed neiging en liefde, angst en schrik.
Then Wr-alda wrought in her conscience inclination and love, anxiety and fright.
2) in book Frêtho-rik Oera-Linda
[Ottema/ Sandbach p.159, original p.115]
Thi Mâgy bogade vppa sinra snôdhêd.
De Magy verhief zich op zijne slimheid.
The Magy prided himself upon his cunning,
Men Irtha skold im thâna, thåt hja nên Mâgy ner afgoda to lêta ne mochte
Maar Irtha zoude hem toonen, dat zij geen Magy noch afgoden mocht toelaten
but Irtha made him know that she would not tolerate any Magy or idol
to thêre hêlge skêta, hwêrut hju Frya bêrade.
tot de heilige schoot, waaruit zij Frya baarde.
on the holy bosom [?] that had borne Frya.
3) in Letter from Rika the Ald-fâm
[Ottema/ Sandbach p.231, original p.191]
Tha hja vrjettath, that Frya bern bêrde svnder jengong ênis mån.
Doch zij vergeten, dat Frya kinderen baarde zonder toegang eens mans.
but they forget that Frya bore children without having intercourse with a man.
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