The language of the OLB seems to have two different words for lips: LIPPA and WÉRA. Wera/ were was known to mean lip in Oldfrisian (according to the dictionaries of Hettema and Richthofen), but nowadays only varieties of the word have survived in Icelandic and Polish (as far as I know).
vör/ varir - icelandic warga - polish wera, were - oldfrisian
The expression "she opened her lips and spoke" is used three times in the OLB (fragments 1c, 1d, 1e). 1. WÉRA = lips a. [005/05] (Ádelas council) THÀN MOTON ALLE LÉRINGA OVERA WÉRA JVWERA WIVA ÀND TOGHATERA THÉR.IN STRÁMA. dan moeten alle leringen (leren, lessen) over de lippen van uw vrouwen en dochters daarin (brein en hart v.d. kinderen) stromen. then all teachings must stream from ('over') the lips of your wives and daughters in there (into the brains and hearts of the children)
b. [009-25] (Ode to Frya) VNTLVKTON HJRA WÉRA. THAN SWÉGON THA FÜGELON ÀND NE RORDON THA BLÉDAR NAVT MAR ontluikten (openden zich) haar lippen, dan zwegen de vogelen en bewogen (roerden zich) de bladeren niet meer when her lips opened, the birds fell silent and the leaves stopped moving c. [064/08] (Kàlta and Minerva) THA HJA SACH THAT ALLE ÔGON VPPER FÀSTIGATH WÉRON. ÉPENDE HJU HJRA WÉRA ÀND KÉTH. Toen ze zag dat alle ogen op haar gevestigd waren, opende ze haar lippen en sprak: When she saw that all eyes were aimed at her, she opened her lips and spoke:
d. [083/18] (Franas end) TO LÔNGA LESTA ÉPENDE HJU HJRA WÉRA ÀNDE KÉTH. Tenslotte (te lange leste) opende zij haar lippen en sprak: Finally, she opened her lips and spoke: e. [091/27] (Bruno) THA HJU THET WORD GUND WAS. ÉPENDE HJU HJRA FALXA WÉRA ANDE KÉTH. Toen haar het woord gegund was, opende ze haar valse lippen en sprak: When the word (the floor) was given to her, she opened her evil lips and spoke: f. [161/08] (Gosas council) NIMMER MÁRE NÉN ÔRE TÁLE OVIR THINA WÉRA NI KVMA TO LÉTANE nimmer meer een andere taal over uw lippen te laten komen to never again let another language pass through ('come over') your lips 2. LIP, LIPPA = lip, lips a. [076/02] (Ulysos) INNA WANDEL WRDE HJU KÁ.LIP HÉTEN UT HAWEDE HAT HJARA VNDER.LIP ASEN UTKIKBORED FARUTSTÀK. in de wandeling werd ze Ká-lip genoemd, omdat haar onderlip als een uitkijkbord (?) vooruitstak. she was commonly called Ká-lip, because her lower lip stuck out like a lookout-board (?).
b. [158/13] (Gosas council) ÉNE TÁLE IN ALLER TONGA ÀND VP ALLER LIPPA één taal in aller tongen en op aller lippen one language in the tongues and on the lips of all
[009-07] THI TEX THÉR FINDA NÉI.LÉT. WAS IN GOLDEN BLÉDAR WRYT De 'tex' die Finda naliet, was in gouden bladen gegraveerd The 'tex' that Finda established, was written on golden sheets (litt.: leaves)
[009-25] VNTLVKTON HJRA WÉRA. THAN SWÉGON THA FÜGELON ÀND NE RORDON THA BLÉDAR NAVT MAR ontluikten (openden zich) haar lippen, dan zwegen de vogelen en bewogen (roerden zich) de bladeren niet meer when her lips opened, the birds fell silent and the leaves stopped moving
[064-21] THÉR MÁKATH HJA HJVD.DÉGON SKRIF.FILT FON POMPA.BLÉDAR daar maken ze tegenwoordig (heden ten dage) schrijfvilt van pompebladen there they nowadays make writing-felt from water-lily leaves
[104-17] HO THET WÉTER TO THA HELLANDA BLÀDAR OF DRUPTE hoe het water van de hellende bladeren afdrupte how the water dripped off the tilt leaves (leaf/ leaves - english) blad/ bladen, bladeren - dutch blatt/ blätter - german blad - danish, swedish, norse blað - oldnorse, icelandic
In dutch, "sheet of paper" is "blad papier" or "vel papier" (vel = skin). This may indicate that dried leaves and animal-skins were used to write on (besides felt, according to the OLB). These are not materials that last long in our climate.
[017,02] ÀJDER BURCH MOT HIRI SELVA BIDRUPPA Iedere burcht moet zichzelf bedruipen (autark/ zelfvoorzienend zijn). Every citadel (community) must be autarkic/ self-sufficient.
(metaphor: when frying meat, dripping it with its own fat) Van wat houts, dat vercoft was int Haghe hout, omdattet die stoven van den houte, dat ghebesicht was ter feeste, niet bedrupen en soude (1343) Si en sijn niet ghelike nat, die men mit enen water beghiet: die een bedrupet ende dander niet (ca. 1411) (be-) druipen, druppen, druppelen - dutch to drip, to drop - english tropfen - german dryppe - danish, norse droppa - swedish dropi - icelandic
[104,16] HJU HÉDE SJAN HO THET WÉTER TO THA HELLANDA BLADAR OF DRUPTE. Ze had gezien hoe het water van de hellende bladeren afdrupte. She had seen how the water dripped off the tilt leaves. drupte, druipte, druppelde, droop - dutch dripped, dropped - english tropfte - german drypper - norse dryppede - danish droppade - swedish draup - icelandic
[106,08] SKÁM.RÁD WÀRTH THEN MAN ÀN HI DRUPTE STOLKES HINNE. Rood van schaamte (schaamrood) werd de man en hij droop stilletjes af (heen). The man blushed for shame (litt. 'became shame-red'), and silently slunk (metaphor: litt. 'dripped') away.
[118/07] HJA HÀVON THIN SALT PROVAD ÀND THIN BRÀD ÉTEN Zij hebben uw zout geproefd en uw brood gegeten. They have tasted your salt and eaten your bread.
[119/11] IN SINA HANDA HÉDI.N SKILD HÉRVP WAS BRÀD ÀND SALT LÉID. In zijn handen had hij een schild, hierop was brood en zout gelegd. In his hand he held a shield on which bread and salt were laid.
[121/18] THA ALEXANDRE AFTERNÉI BRÀD ÀND SALT MITH IM DÉLADE. Toen Alexander daarna brood en zout met hem deelde, When Alexander later shared bread and salt with him,
salt - english, oldfrisian (1), icelandic, swedish, norse, danish saut - oldfrisian (2) zout - dutch salz - german sâlt - newfrisian sal - spanish, portuguese sale - italian sel - french
bread - english brad, brae - oldfrisian brood - dutch brot - german brød - danish, norse bröd - swedish brauð - icelandic brea - newfrisian
Some proverbs with bread and salt
Arab:
- Between me and him it's bread and salt. (friendship or reconciliation)
- Who ate bread and salt with you, will not betray you.
Russian:
- Eat bread and salt and speak the truth.
Crete (Greece):
- Follow the council of old people and married people. They ate much bread and salt.
German:
- Salz und Brot gebe Gott, dann hat's keine Not. (May God give salt and bread, then there's no need/ hardship.)
- Salz und Brot macht Wangen rot. (Salt and bread make cheeks red.)
- Brot und Salz machen selbst die Räuber demütig. (Bread and salt will humble even thieves.)
[034/14] Oera Linda manuscript page 34, line 14 to 23
ÉNE.S KÉMON HJA (THA PRESTERA) ÀND FRÉGON.
AS THV THÀN NÉN THJONSTER NE BISTE HWAT DÉIST THÀN MITHA ÀJAR THAM THV ALTI BI THI HESTE.
MIN.ERVA ANDERE.
THISE ÀJAR SEND THAT SINE.BYLD FON FRYA.S RÉD.JÉVINGA WÉRIN VSA TO KVMSTE FORHÉLEN HLÉIT AND FON ÉL THAT MÀNNESKALIK.SLACHTE. TID MOT HJA UTBRODA AND WI MOTON WÁKA THAT-ER NÉN LÉTH AN NE KVMTH.
Since the beginning of this thread (1st part already), Abramelin
has argued that OLB can't be authentic because the word BEDRUM
(translated as "bedroom") can't be that old, as Shakespeare would have
been the first to have used it.
On 25 sept. 2010, I said:
An
example [of alleged anachronistic words] often used (e.g. by dr.Jensma)
is "BEDRUM", translated by him as 'sleepchamber' (slaapkamer). BEDEN means to ask, pray, offer (Dutch: bidden, bieden);RUM means space or room (Dutch: ruim, ruimte). The modern word "bed" can hereby be explained.
Abramelin replied:
"bedrum fon thêre Moder""slaapvertrek van de Moeder" (Ottema)
"bedroom of the folk-mother" (Sandbach) You appear to suggest that this folk-mother was about to be raped in her own... what, 'praying chamber'?
I clarified (7 oct.'10):
TEX FRYAS (p. 11/12 original manuscript) point 3:
MEN NE TOF NAVT TIL MAN JO BÉDEN HETH
Modern versions of this word may very well be: BIDDEN (Dutch) meaning to pray BIEDEN (Dutch) meaning to offer BITTEN (German) meaning to ask BJUDA / BEDJA (Swedish) meaning to ask, invite, request This is why I think BEDRUM does not need to mean exactly the same as the modern English word BEDROOM.In Dutch I would translate it -close to the original word- with BIDRUIMTE, a room for meditation, as we would say today.
Now I found something to support my idea that "BEDRUM" originally may have meant oratory (praying- or offering-room):
In "Frieslands Oudheid" (Frisian Antiquity), dr. H. Halbertsma (2000; eds. Cordfunke, Sarfati); p.168;
Referring to a fragment from "Vita Landeberti" (Leven des salighen martelers ende busscops sinte Lambrechtz), about st. Lambert of Maastricht who lived in the 7th century:
"He put off his sword, withdrew in his room, the dormitory (sleep-chamber) that he also used as a oratory (praying-chapel), and streched down arms-wide on the floor, praying for mercy for himself as well as for his enemies." (my translation)
Original text: "Hij legde zijn zwaard af, trok zich terug in zijn kamer, het slaapvertrek dat hij tevens als bidkapel gebruikte en strekte zich met wijd-gespreide armen uit over de vloer, genade biddende voor zichzelf zowel als zijn vijanden."
======
Posted 18 February 2014 - 02:40 PM
OliverDSmith, on 18 February 2014 - 03:42 AM, said:
Are there actually people in this thread claiming Oera Linda Book is not a forgery?
On your website you wrote (last january 26):
... the Oera Linda Book. Anyone trying to defend this sort of stuff lacks intellectual honesty.
What makes you say this?
How would you defend your conclusion that it must be a forgery?
=====
Posted 18 February 2014 - 04:29 PM
This upstart, who got his bachelor of arts last year, boasts on his website about his almost encyclopedic knowledge of classical literature:
My knowledge of classical literature is almost encyclopedic, but I am far less knowledgeable on other topics.
... but admits to be far less knowledgeable on other topics.
I'd advise him to be more modest on topics about which he doesn't have a clue. =====
Posted 19 February 2014 - 09:32 AM
OliverDSmith, on 18 February 2014 - 08:24 PM, said:
... people who think Oera Linda Book is not a forgery
How many of them do you actually know, Oliver?
And even if you would know a few, you should not generalize.They are not all the same.
Since you represent part of the readers, I thank you for speaking your mind and welcome you to this thread.
I am prepared to seriously answer your questions and comments.
But before we continue, please tell us, what is it you really want from taking part of this discussion?
=====
Posted 20 February 2014 - 09:35 AM
OliverDSmith, on 18 February 2014 - 03:23 PM, said:
Can you find a peer-reviewed work or scholarly source defending it?
Can you find a dito work or source proving it is a forgery?
Even if it would be a 19th century forgery, it would be an interesting
study subject, if only for the language in which it was written.
Dr. Ottema took it seriously and his career was destroyed by malicious press.
A similar thing happened to Dr. Wirth (who was forbidden to publish or teach by the nazis).
The strong attacks they suffered can
easily be explained, because some ideas in the OLB may feel like threats
to the establishment, in particular centralised wealth and power (princes and priests in the english translation), as well as to common dogmas about language, history and religion.
These attacks are one explanation. So far, no established historian has dared to risk being excommunicated by being declared pseudohistorian (which is the common tactic of subsidized science).
My carreer (as Msc) was in the world of
science, politics and mass media - I stepped out of that treadmill 10
years ago. I know from theory (history and philosophy of science) as
well as personal experience that there are taboos, dogmas and lots of
internal conflicts in science. So science is not like a religion to me,
as it still seems to be to you.
Otherwise you would need to explain why no historian takes it serious. It was not even written to be taken serious.
You claim to know who created it and why?
=====
Posted 20 February 2014 - 09:56 AM
OliverDSmith, on 18 February 2014 - 03:36 PM, said:
You're only left with crazy conspiracy theories.
That is a term often misused by people who only believe what they learn at school and from mainstream media.
The prevailing OLB theory is by Dr. Jensma from the University of Groningen.
He did not investigate the authenticity, but started from the assumption that OLB is a hoax and tried to answer the question who might have created it.
At least three specialists (professors in dutch literature &
language, church history and Oldfrisian/ Oldsaxon) publicly declared
that they did not share his conclusions (see end of my 1 hour video).
His theory is that vicar-poet Haverschmidt, linguist Verwijs and
shipwright Over de Linden created it together in deepest secret, while
many witnesses who confirmed the authenticity simply lied.
Now that is a conspiracy theory, litterally.
=====
Posted 20 February 2014 - 10:03 AM
OliverDSmith, on 18 February 2014 - 03:46 PM, said:
So
the only 19th century philologist who studied the manuscript came to
the conclusion it was a forgery... only to "save his career"?
Dr. Verwijs (1830-1880) was not the only one.
Dr. Ottema (1804-1879) studied and translated it (whilst Verwijs tried, but did not succeed).
He concluded it was authentic and argued why. As said he was crushed.
Verwijs was at the start of his carreer and when public opinion turned
against the OLB he changed his (public) opinion.
=====
Posted 20 February 2014 - 07:02 PM
OliverDSmith, on 18 February 2014 - 08:24 PM, said:
Hatred found its way among them. They each bore twelve sons and twelve daughters— at every Juul-time a couple. Thence come all mankind.
Lyda was black, with hair curled like a lamb's; her eyes shone like stars, and shot out glances like those of a bird of prey. Finda was yellow, and her hair was like the mane of a horse. She could not bend a tree, but where Lyda killed one lion she killed ten. Frya was white like the snow at sunrise, and the blue of her eyes vied with the rainbow.
This
is discredited 19th century race typology when the world was split into
three races: "Mongoloids" (yellow), "Negroids" (black) and "Caucasoids"
(white).
"Hatred" for "od" was a mistranslation, much discussed since first publication and in this thread.
Ottema related it to Latin "odium", but it makes more sense to relate it
to nordic words like Norse "odd" (peak, point, phallic object) or
German "odem" (gods breath, life force), as Over de Linden suggested.
Since you probably never had a look at the original language, here is a
simplified transcription with improvised translation of the first part:
[006/29] WR.ALDA.S OD TRAD TO RA BINNA.
AND NW BARDON EK TWILIF SVNA AND TWILIF TOGETHERA.
EK JOL.TID TWÉN.
THÉROF SEND ALLE MANNESKA KÉMEN. Wralda´s <od> entered them, and now each gave birth to twelve sons and twelve daughters, each Yuletime twins. Thereof all people have come.
[007/01] LYDA WAS SWART. KROL.HÉRED ALSA THA LOMERA.
LIK. STARA BLONKON HJRA OGON.
JA THES GIRFUGELS BLIKKAR WÉRON VNMODICH BY HJRA.S.
[007/30] FINDA. WAS GÉL AND HJR HÉR SA THA MANNA ÉNER HORS.
ÉNE THRÉ NE KV HJA NAVT NI BUGJA.
MEN HWÉR LYDA ANNEN LAVWA MACHT TO DÉJANDE
THÉR DADE HJA. WEL TJAN.
[009/18] FRYA WAS WIT LIK SNÉI BY.T MORNE.RAD
AND THAT BLAW HJRAR OGNUM.
WN.ET JETA THÉRE RÉINBOGE OF.
That the idea of three root races was popular (again?) in the 19th
century, and that this concept got discredited later, are no good
arguments against OLB´s authenticity.
The following fragment demonstrates a vision of peaceful co-existence and co-operation between the races:
[141/04] FINDA.S FOLK SKIL SINA FINDINGRIKHÉD TO MÉMA NITHA WENDA.
THAT LYDA.S FOLK SINA KRAFTA AND WI VSA WISDOM.
THA SKILUN THA FALXA PRESTERA WÉI FAGATH WERTHA FON JRTHA.
[...] THÉR NE SKILUN NÉNE ORA MASTERA NACH FORSTA NER BASA NAVT NÉSA
AS THÉRA THÉR BI MÉNA WILLE KÉREN SEND.
Translation Sandbach (p.191): Finda's folk shall contribute their industry to the common good, Lyda's folk their strength, and we our wisdom. Then the false priests shall be swept away from the earth. [...] There shall be neither princes, nor masters, nor rulers, except those chosen by the general voice. =====
Posted 21 February 2014 - 08:47 AM
Van Gorp, on 20 February 2014 - 06:36 PM, said:
Does the OLB give a kind of etymology about Minos...
In OLB the name is "MINNO".
The etymology is not given explicitly, but "MIN" means "my" or "mine" (dutch: mijn - german: mein - scandinavian languages: min).
The dutch verb "minnen" or "beminnen" means to love or to make love.
Would make sense to use this root-word for a name.
=====
Posted 21 February 2014 - 04:03 PM
OliverDSmith, on 19 February 2014 - 05:08 PM, said:
... which is why Oera Linda Book [...] was used as propaganda by the Nazis.
On the contrary, they publicly declared it fake as early as 1934:
gestur, on 04 April 2013 - 11:45 AM, said:
Fragment
of "Het Oera-Linda-Boek in Duitschland en hier" (The OLB in Germany and
here), by Dr. Murk de Jong (1939), about the way Herman Wirth was
silenced by Nazi-'scientists'.
[...]
Translation:
With a (shortened) translation he had made it accessible
for the German people. It was a smasher. Teachers took it to school to
read it to the youth, like Wirth did for his students at university. An Oera-Linda-cult impended, with Wirth as its prophet.
But also a crisis in German science. [...]
In feverish fuss all was done to crush Wirth or the OLB, that was virtually the same. [...]
Finally on the 4th of May 1934, it took a great demonstration of German scientists, to silence Wirth for the time being. A demonstration (show) it was, more than a scientific debate [...]
That it became known as "Himmler´s Bible" after the war, has surely helped to discredit it some more.
But it is true that Himmler personally took the book seriously and had secret investigations done till ca. 1943.
Hitler liked Wagner´s music. Does this mean it should be banned?
=====
Posted 21 February 2014 - 04:18 PM
OliverDSmith, on 19 February 2014 - 05:25 PM, said:
No scholar or historian considers the Oera Linda Book to be a non-forgery.
That is because too few of them know of its existence and even less take
the effort to investigate it themselves, let alone publish about it.
No scholar or historian has disproven its authenticity, that's why I asked:
gestur, on 20 February 2014 - 09:35 AM, said:
Can you find a dito work or source proving it is a forgery?
=====
Posted 21 February 2014 - 04:30 PM
OliverDSmith, on 19 February 2014 - 07:54 PM, said:
Yet no civilization in their ancient Germanic homeland ever appeared, funny that.
I guess you consider as 'civilization' only cultures that built and left
big temples and palaces and conquered lots of land and peoples.
Well, that was indeed the opposite of what the (matriarchal) Frya's (or proto-Frisians) were about, according to the OLB.
And there used to be plenty of oakwood here in the fertile and strategic riverdelta of Europe.
=====
Posted 26 February 2014 - 04:19 PM
OliverDSmith, on 18 February 2014 - 03:23 PM, said:
The
obvious answer why Oera Linda is a forgery is because this is what the
historical method (i.e. source criticism) shows it to be.
What study (of the OLB) were you referring to?
=====
Posted 26 February 2014 - 05:18 PM
Smith used so many fallacies that are commonly used in this debate, that his contributions provide an interesting case study.
Let's analyse what happened.
Source for listed fallacies: http://en.wikipedia....st_of_fallacies
1. I asked why OLB has to be a forgery.
gestur, on 18 February 2014 - 02:40 PM, said:
On your website you wrote (last january 26):
... the Oera Linda Book. Anyone trying to defend this sort of stuff lacks intellectual honesty.
What makes you say this?
How would you defend your conclusion that it must be a forgery?
2. His answer can be summarised as: because no scholar takes it seriously.
OliverDSmith, on 18 February 2014 - 03:23 PM, said:
Oera
Linda Book has no academic credibility. Can you find a peer-reviewed
work or scholarly source defending it? Otherwise you would need to
explain why no historian takes it serious.
Fallacies: > Argumentum ad populum - where a proposition is claimed to be true or good solely because many people believe it to be so. > argumentum ad antiquitam - a conclusion supported solely because it has long been held to be true. > argumentum ex silentio - a conclusion based on silence or lack of contrary evidence.
3. To distract from the argument, he attacks his opponent:
OliverDSmith, on 18 February 2014 - 03:46 PM, said:
See how gestur has to invoke those conspiracy theories...
OliverDSmith, on 18 February 2014 - 08:24 PM, said:
How many of the following applies to people who think Oera Linda Book is not a forgery?
treats myths, legends, sagas and similar literature as literal truth
is neither critical nor skeptical [... etc.]
> Argumentum ad hominem - the evasion of the actual topic by directing the attack at your opponent. > Appeal to ridicule - an argument is made by presenting the opponent's argument in a way that makes it appear ridiculous.
4. Smith goes even further and plays the nazi card:
OliverDSmith, on 19 February 2014 - 05:25 PM, said:
The
"OeraLindists" who consider it real are a few neo-Nazi cranks on places
like Stormfront, or people who just want to claim it is not a forgery
(when it clearly is) to feel special or get attention. I'll put you in
the latter camp, however your website quotes Nazis like Herman Wirth etc
as evidence, so you could overlap with the former.
> Reductio ad Hitlerum - comparing an
opponent or their argument to Hitler or Nazism in an attempt to
associate a position with one that is universally reviled.
5. I steered back to the original and most important question:
gestur, on 20 February 2014 - 09:35 AM, said:
OliverDSmith, on 18 February 2014 - 03:23 PM, said:
Can you find a peer-reviewed work or scholarly source defending it?
Can you find a dito work or source proving it is a forgery?
... which he ignored.
And instead more false reasoning:
OliverDSmith, on 20 February 2014 - 04:43 PM, said:
The fact only Nazis took an interest in it and it became "Himmler's Bible" is more than a clue.
=====
Posted 27 February 2014 - 10:33 AM
OliverDSmith, on 26 February 2014 - 07:52 PM, said:
I did not quote individual authorities or appeal to the majority, but the scientific (academic) consensus.
What good is that alleged consensus if there is not a single valid publication proving that OLB can't be authentic?
As long as you fail to refer to any academic source, your claims are empty.
The only people who claim it is, are non-surprisingly pseudo-scientists.
You became a bachelor of arts in 2013(why are you not busy writing a masters thesis?), I am a master of science since 1996, so following your logic, I have more authority than you.
I know many examples of science being driven (because financed) by
political or economic interests, rather than by the desire for truth.
What makes Dr. Ottema and Dr. Wirth (just two examples of OLB advocates from the past) 'pseudo-scientists'?
=====
Posted 27 February 2014 - 11:03 AM
OliverDSmith, on 26 February 2014 - 07:52 PM, said:
The fact the consensus among historians is Oera Linda Book is a forgery - makes it the default position.
Very few historians know of its existence, far less even have studied it
themselves, judging the number of publications about it (zero).
So this 'consensus' is rather unfamiliarity.
Your blog doesn't even qualify as research. All you do is try to shift the burden of proof and employ conspiracy theories.
I don't claim that it is. It is merely a scrapbook for myself and whoever is interested.
It contains links, copies of discussions from this forum and others, word- and language-studies, creative experiments and translations into english of relevant dutch sources.
What you labelled a conspiracy theory before, was merely a speculation (that Dr. Verwijs changed his public opinion "probably to save his career").
=====
Posted 27 February 2014 - 11:18 AM
OliverDSmith, on 26 February 2014 - 07:52 PM, said:
The
fact I admit I am less knowledgeable or dumb about most other things is
precisely why I quote the scientific consensus -- I am quoting the
experts. In contrast you think the experts are wrong and you know better
than them.
Still waiting for you first expert quote.
I don't claim the experts are wrong.
I claim there are none.
You can save yourself the effort of referring to Dr. Jensma ("The Masked
God", 2004). He did not argue why OLB has to be a forgery, but started
from the assumption that it is, and speculated
about who the creative conspirators might have been. As I show at the
end of my one-hour video, at least three experts (professors), did not
accept his conclusions. So no consensus there either.
=====
Posted 27 February 2014 - 12:10 PM
OliverDSmith, on 26 February 2014 - 07:52 PM, said:
All I pointed out is that your sources are from Nazis or anti-semites. You don't have one credible source.
You suggest that all my sources are discredited ones, while your only
example was Dr. Wirth (1885-1981), who was a co-founder of SS Ahnenerbe
(in 1935), but who was also forbidden to teach and publish by the Nazi
regime.
Even if he was my only source, the assumption that he was or has been a
national socialist or an anti-semite, does not on it self exclude the
possibility that some of his claims may have been right or valid.
Also, I can quote someone without agreeing with everything he said. I may even quote him in order to oppose his views.
If you want to accuse me of having made any improper statement in the OLB-debate, then I challenge you to be specific.
=====
Posted 27 February 2014 - 12:51 PM
OliverDSmith, on 26 February 2014 - 07:52 PM, said:
However
I should point out that I already showed the anachronistic
inconsistencies in the Oera Linda Book which reveal it to be a forgery.
For example, if the Oera Linda Book is an ancient document, why does it
contain 19th century racial taxonomy?
1. Is this taxonomy from before or after publication of the OLB?
"... historian Goffe Jensma claims that the concept of root races was first articulated in the Dutch esotericist book Oera Linda, which was translated into English by William Sandbach in 1876." Source: wiki/Root_race
2. If this taxonomy existed before OLB's publication, this does not
prove beyond doubt that OLB has to be fake. The idea of three root races
may have existed long before it was written down (again) in the 19th
century. It may even have been kept vivid (or revived) by people who had
read or heard of some of OLB's content. The great grandfather of
Cornelis Over de Linden, Jan OL (c.1718-1794) was a book printer and
publisher in Enkhuizen. It is not known (yet) what sort of texts he
published in this age that ended with the French Revolution.
As for the supposed historical inconsistencies:
If OLB is authentic, it does not mean that all information in it has to be true facts.
In theory, it could still be 13th century fiction (all or part of it).
... the Oera Linda Book. Anyone trying to defend this sort of stuff lacks intellectual honesty.
You claim that advocates of OLB's authenticity lack "intellectually honesty", in other words, they are lying. The terms intellectually dishonest and intellectual dishonesty are often used as rhetorical devices in a debate; the label invariably frames an opponent in a negative light. It is a round about way to say "you're lying".
Source: urbandictionary/Intellectual dishonesty
You will have to present better arguments to support this bold claim.
=====
Posted 27 February 2014 - 05:59 PM
OliverDSmith, on 22 February 2014 - 11:25 PM, said:
The Oera Linda Book isn't even good for toilet paper.
With his almost encyclopedic knowledge of classical literature, Smith may be familiar with the fable of the fox and the grapes by Aesop (c.620-564 BCE):
"The
Fox and the Grapes" is one of the traditional Aesop's fables and can be
held to illustrate the concept of cognitive dissonance. In this view,
the premise of the fox that covets inaccessible grapes is taken to stand
for a person who attempts to hold incompatible ideas simultaneously. In
that case, the disdain the fox expresses for the grapes at the
conclusion to the fable serves at least to diminish the dissonance even
if the behaviour in fact remains irrational. Before "cognitive
dissonance" was invented there was a moral to the story and the moral
was "Any fool can despise what he can not get".
These sources don't argue why OLB has to be a forgery, they assume it:
1. "How to Deal with Holy Books in an Age of Emerging Science. The Oera Linda Book as a New Age Bible", Goffe Jensma (2008).
This article discusses as the title says, it is not about the question
why OLB can't be authentic. It refers to Jensma's PhD thesis "De
Gemaskerde God" (2004). This study investigated the theory that OLB was
created by Haverschmidt, Verwijs and Over de Linden, assuming - not argueing- that it was fake. Jensmas work did not lead to consensus among the specialists:
Jensma acquired his PhD with his Haverschmidt-thesis at the faculty of Theology in Groningen, on December 6, 2004.
Three days later the theory was debated in the presence of the following specialists:
- Dr Eric Cossee, professor of Dutch church history
- Dr Marita Mathijsen, professor of Dutch language and literature
- Dr Henk Meijering, emeritus professor Oldfrisian and Oldsaxon
The next day (Dec. 10) a report appeared in de leading Frisian newspaper (Leeuwarder Courant: "Van het Oera Linda-boek, de Friese kip en de zeespiegel"), which stated:
"Although the speakers without exception praised
Jensma's work, he had not been able to convince any of them of his truth
that François Haverschmidt is the main author of the Oera Linda-book."
And:
"Emeritus professor Frisian, Henk Meijering, teasingly
labelled Jensma's thesis a <scientific novel through which he had
acquired his doctorate>."
2. "Het Oera Linda-boek. Falsificatie of mystificatie?", W. Prevenier (2006)
This article is a review of Jensma's book. As the title says, it deals with the question forgery or hoax, notauthentic or forgery/ hoax.
3. "The Year's Work in Modern Language Studies", K. Fokkema (1937)
This is not the report of a study, it is a survey of publications.
4. "'Männerbund' and 'Mutterrecht': Herman Wirth, Sophie Rogge-Börner and the Ura-Linda-Chronik", Peter Davies (2007)
"This paper explores the ideological complexity of
issues connected with matriarchal myth [...] by examining the
controversy over the Ura-Linda-Chronik [...]"
Again, this article assumes OLB is forgery, but does not argue why. That is not what the article is about.
5. "The past as propaganda: totalitarian archaeology in Nazi Germany", Bettina Arnol (1990)
This is not a study of the OLB, but the reference to "Herman Wirth's Ura-Linda-Chronik und die deutschen Vorgeschichtsforscher", K.H. Jacob-Friesen (1934) is interesting. Let's see if we can find that.
~ ~ ~
A note in general:
You keep making the mistake of reasoning like "it is fake because everyone says so" or "... because that has always been known".
These arguments are invalid (argumentum ad populum & ad antiquitam).
The argument you made about 19th century race-taxonomy might have been valid, but I refuted it.
=====
Posted 28 February 2014 - 11:14 AM
OliverDSmith, on 27 February 2014 - 08:27 PM, said:
... its only supporters were the Nazi "lunatic fringe".
As Abramelin can confirm, that label does not apply to Overwijn and Raubenheimer, to name just two examples.
=====
Posted 28 February 2014 - 11:15 AM
Abramelin, on 27 February 2014 - 11:32 PM, said:
Yes, and Blavatsky visited Belgium a couple of years before. You know, just after the OLB was published.
Indeed, she may have been inspired by it, or by people who were.
=====
On 28 Feb. NO-ID-EA posted about a 'review' by R. Macalister (1941) of the Chronicles of Eri:
the above review is very disappointing... and i was really looking
forward to reading it... So that is what a scholarly review looks
like? should it not break down the history the writer claims, and
show how it is wrong by proofs to the contrary ? ... this is
nothing but a rant in flowery language, just full of one mans opinion,
so we get told the work was evaluated and found to be a fake by the
scholar Macalister... but as per usual the scholar does not have to
show his proof, but just make accusations, and allude to the other
mans insanity... and that is supposed to be good enough reason to write
him and his book off for ever... same old story...
=====
Posted 01 March 2014 - 08:31 AM
Exactly.
Smith seems to think that all scholars are always right, simply because they are scholars. [The ones who are not right - in his opinion - are pseudo-scientists...]
How naive.
The fact that they often strongly disagree with eachother, or later were proven to have been wrong says enough.
Also cases of serious scientific fraud are known, or cases where they
are paid to push through a certain opinion (serving political, religious
or economic interests).
Alas, for too many 'science' has become like a just another dogmatic religion.
=====
Posted 01 March 2014 - 07:33 PM
OliverDSmith, on 01 March 2014 - 06:55 PM, said:
Re-read what I posted a page or so back. [...] Here's another post that explains:
[...] However, when the majority of the evidence available supports a position, it is reasonable to hold it as a tentative conclusion regardless.
What evidence?!
Re-read my earlier reply:
gestur, on 27 February 2014 - 10:33 AM, said:
What good is that alleged consensus if there is not a single valid publication proving that OLB can't be authentic?
=====
Posted 02 March 2014 - 09:43 AM
OliverDSmith, on 01 March 2014 - 10:58 PM, said:
Well obviously there is evidence, otherwise the academic consensus would not be Oera Linda Book is a forgery.
Then why has none of the self-declared skeptics been able to reproduce this obvious evidence in this (two part) thread? And why do you need demagoguery to make your point?
OliverDSmith, on 22 February 2014 - 11:25 PM, said:
The Oera Linda Book isn't even good for toilet paper.
OliverDSmith, on 27 February 2014 - 08:27 PM, said:
... its only supporters were the Nazi "lunatic fringe".
OliverDSmith, on 18 February 2014 - 03:36 PM, said:
You're only left with crazy conspiracy theories.
=====
Posted 02 March 2014 - 04:14 PM
OliverDSmith, on 01 March 2014 - 10:58 PM, said:
What you're doing is the equivalent of me asking you to disprove there is a pink unicorn somewhere in space. It is faulty logic.
No, this simile is invalid.
Our discussion started with you claiming (last Jan. 6th on your website) that anyone who defends the OLB "lacks intellectual honesty", in other words: ... is lying.
I asked you to explain why and your answer seems to be: because they challenge the academic consensus.
I hope you will agree that it has happened more often that what was once
consensus, changed later, after it was at some point challenged. I
recommend you read "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions" (Kuhn, 1962). Those who challenge an existing paradigm are not by definition liars.
Unless you are paranoid, you can not simply accuse a fellow man of lying and demand of him to prove that he is not.
You will have to provide better arguments.
=====
Posted 03 March 2014 - 09:12 AM
You make a big effort to distract from the main question, because you have no good answer to it.
I asked:
gestur, on 02 March 2014 - 09:43 AM, said:
Then why has none of the self-declared skeptics been able to reproduce this obvious evidence in this (two part) thread?
Your answer:
OliverDSmith, on 02 March 2014 - 09:07 PM, said:
We don't need to produce evidence.
Indeed, but that's not what I asked.
I asked why you can't RE-produce or refer to any evidence.
=====
NO-ID-EA, on 03 March 2014 - 09:15 AM, said:
Why
don't the authorities do the appropriate modern tests on the paper on
which the OBL is written? i find it hard to believe they have not done
that already, so why do they not publish their findings, why keep
that piece of invaluable information to themselves? knowing if the
paper is 13th Century paper, or 19th Century paper would answer a lot
of questions [...]
=====
Posted 03 March 2014 - 11:56 AM
NO-ID-EA, on 03 March 2014 - 09:15 AM, said:
I
am still left wondering if O'Connors work was demonized because he was
seen as a political enemy of both the Irish, and British Government
around the time of it's publication, rather than what he wrote of the
history of Eri, because the 1941 review is either just a rant by
Macalister, or if he has the proof, in his arrogance he feels he does
not need to inform us, which is it??
I think these verses from the Old Testament (Deuteronomy 12, 2-3 - King James Bible) speak volumes:
Ye
shall utterly destroy all the places, wherein the nations which ye
shall possess served their gods, upon the high mountains, and upon the
hills, and under every green tree: And ye shall overthrow their altars,
and break their pillars, and burn their groves with fire; and ye shall
hew down the graven images of their gods, and destroy the names of them
out of that place.
=====
Posted 03 March 2014 - 03:43 PM
The Puzzler, on 03 March 2014 - 02:24 PM, said:
The
most important clue given by Homer is the cremation of Achilles,
Patroclus and Hector, whose ashes were collected in golden urns. [...]
But cremation was a typical Celtic custom that was not shared by other
peoples in Europe at the time.
Interesting.
=====
Posted 04 March 2014 - 07:46 AM
OliverDSmith, on 03 March 2014 - 11:23 PM, said:
Gestur dismisses scholarly literature as part of a conspiracy theory that academia is run by Jews...
Where did I say or suggest that?
... the opponents he debates he dismisses if they have a Jewish username or surname (see how he treated the poster Abremlin).
I did not.
Someone else in that thread made fun of him and he asked for it. You totally missed the point.
But with all this you succesfully distracted from the main question:
Why is it so obvious that OLB is fake?
What is the alleged obvious evidence? =====
Posted 04 March 2014 - 08:41 AM
OliverDSmith, on 03 March 2014 - 07:43 PM, said:
But why believe in stuff that is completely false?
I could ask you the same.
=====
Posted 05 March 2014 - 08:56 AM
OliverDSmith, on 03 March 2014 - 05:24 PM, said:
Why would the Iliad and Odyssey be written in Greek, thousands of miles away and not British Celtic in Britain?
Why would these films have been made in English, the current lingua franca? =====
Posted 06 March 2014 - 10:05 AM
NO-ID-EA, on 23 February 2014 - 11:54 AM, said:
Chronicles of Eri is another book that has been claimed to be a forgery, not "proved" to be a forgery ...
I started reading and, after 44 pages of introduction, am already hooked.
Most fascinating and providing many possible missing clues.
Thanks for the tip, No-Id-Ea!
Links to downloadable PDFs of the two parts (both 500+ pages): part 1 part 2
Some memorable fragments (my underlining):
p. xxxiv
This captivating mode of recording the past, prevailed in Greece, nearly till Herodotus made his appearance. Hath Herodotus
been honored with the title of "Father of history?" The glory hath been
tarnished by the foul addition of "Shade between fact and fiction,"
both epithets bestowed in days of faint and glimmering beams of
intellectual light, succeeding dreary ages of profound darkness,
wherein, with a beastly submission, men suffered their understandings to
be shrouded by the stupifying power of priestcraft, which cherished ignorance, the guarantee of its dominion, and detested knowledge, the foe to its various frauds, gloomy debaucheries, inhuman cruelties and manifold enormities, when a slight acquaintance with the language in which Greeks and Romans spoke and wrote, was accepted for wisdom, and travel and learning were held to be synonimous.
p. xl
Such is the history of Herodotus,
wherefrom, in my judgment, is only to be inferred that he knew nothing
of the subject, insomuch that one is almost tempted to accord with the
censures of Josephus, in his reply to Apion, wherein speaking of the Greek historians he says, "that those most zealous to compose history were not so solicitous for the discovery of truth, altho' it was very easy for them to always make a profession of it, as to demonstrate that they could write well."
=====
Posted 06 March 2014 - 10:27 AM
Alewyn Raubenheimer has, in his book and in this thread, argued that Phrygians may have been Fryans and that the Faroe Islands may be the remains of Frisland.
I found something that may be of interest.
This is the so-called Phrygian cap:
"The Phrygian cap is a soft conical cap with the top
pulled forward, associated in antiquity with the inhabitants of Phrygia,
a region of central Anatolia."
(Paris of Troy wearing a Phrygian cap)
One of the symbols associated with Mithras was the Phrygian cap which symbolised freedom and the pursuit of liberty.
If we should somehow consider the possibilty of a link between OLB's Frya's people, the Frisii, Vriezen and Phrygian cap:
it can than be considered to be in the words also:
Vriezen can then be interpreted as OLB describes Frya's people: those
who are free (not enslaved by others or creeds, live freely).
De Vriezen = Die Vry Zyn
Fryas = Free's
Phrygian hat as symbol for liberty
Vrie = Vry = Phry = Fry = Free
=====
Posted 11 March 2014, 09:06 AM
NO-ID-EA, on 09 March 2014 - 07:34 PM, said:
... what are your thoughts Gestur... [on Atlantis]
On 26 Dec. 2010, I said:
My feeling about "Atlantis" is this:
If, as OLB suggests, Atlant comes from ALD-LAND, meaning old land, than
it would probably not have been called that before the 'big flood' and
it can refer to any land that was lost in the 'big flood', so it does
not need to have been the name of just one specific island or continent.
As for the old Frya's land...
I have the feeling that Alewyn's Frisland theory points in the right
direction [FRISLAND, of which the Faröe Islands would be the remains].
(chapter 8, Survivors of the Great Tsunami)
And last October:
gestur, on 28 October 2013 - 08:24 AM, said:
The
ode to Frya ends with the land where she lived sinking and everything
being lost, the people fled and resettled and named the land Texland.
Therefore - although in one text it is suggested that (an) "Aldland" had
been in the east - it is more likely that the Fryan calendar was named
after the "old land" somewhere northly of our current Texel (between
England, Holland, Denmark and Norway).
(Sandbach p.19)... Frya! The land from which she had risen was now a stream...
If indeed a huge tsunami (caused by a a major electric discharge) was the cause, whole coastal areas will have been swept
away.
IMO "old land" is just a way of referring to the "old (lost) world" from before a global disaster.
It may not have meant exactly the same (pointed to the same geographical location) for everyone.
=====
Posted 11 March 2014, 09:15 AM
Van Gorp, on 06 March 2014 - 09:09 PM, said:
... as OLB describes Frya's people: those who are free (not enslaved by others or creeds, live freely).
Exactly.
And because the struggle between people who want to be free and others
who want to enslave/ dominate them is very old, OLB can be interpreted
as referring to various revolutions in which this was a theme:
- Abramelin thinks it is about the French revolution (end of 18th century)
- Jensma thinks it is about orthodox versus more liberal (free thinkers) protestantism (mid 19th century)
(I think it is what it says it is)
=====
Posted 11 March 2014, 09:33 AM
This study (brand new video) may be extremely important in understanding the origin of the solar wheel (or Jol, Yule) symbol:
