translation and comments later
SAVED FROM THE FLOOD — Oera Linda studies
28 June 2012
Wigholt Vleer, 14-3-1996
[edited 19-5-2024]
Translation of letter-fragment by Wigholt Vleer (1919-1999), dated 14-3-1996.
"I got involved in the OLB-case, when a well-known Westfrisian, mr.dr. Arian de Goede, gave me the advise and mission to investigate a book-trader from the Nw. Westerstraat, in the archives of Enkhuizen. This was concerning the Oera Linda Book.
The reason was that this De Goede, later professor in Bandoeng (Dutch Indies), had notes of his great-great-grandfather Arian [Cornelisz] De Goede [1766-1842], mayor and dike-grave of the Schermer-polder, about a book-trader in the Nw. Westerstraat, who would own a chronicle that went back to 2000 BCE. He wanted to buy the chronicle, but the man did not want to sell it, because it was an age-old family-chronicle.
"I got involved in the OLB-case, when a well-known Westfrisian, mr.dr. Arian de Goede, gave me the advise and mission to investigate a book-trader from the Nw. Westerstraat, in the archives of Enkhuizen. This was concerning the Oera Linda Book.
The reason was that this De Goede, later professor in Bandoeng (Dutch Indies), had notes of his great-great-grandfather Arian [Cornelisz] De Goede [1766-1842], mayor and dike-grave of the Schermer-polder, about a book-trader in the Nw. Westerstraat, who would own a chronicle that went back to 2000 BCE. He wanted to buy the chronicle, but the man did not want to sell it, because it was an age-old family-chronicle.
De Goede read aloud this note in a meeting at his home in Utrecht in 1950. For this meeting he had invited: Dr. Nieuwenkamp and Dr. Rühl, both heraldists, who had examined the Over de Linden coat of arms and dated it as from the late 18th century (...); mister Molenaar, who had just published an important brochure, in which he proved that the book had been in Enkhuizen in 1848; a Mr. Jacob from Utrecht (...); J.F. Overwijn, author of the 1941 and 1947 editions of the OLB; a professor from Stockholm (this turned out to be Hermann Wirth, who had lied about his identity). There were two more persons, who said nothing and who's names I forgot, and finally there was me."
Whole letter here:
I. Arian de Goede (1766-1842), son of Cornelis de Goede and Bregtje van Wuijven
Mr. dr. Arian de Goede (1915-1957) left his detailed archive to the North-Holland Archives in Haarlem.
See: http://www.noord-hollandsarchief.nl/search/?miview=inv2&mivast=236&mizig=210&miadt=236&micode=197&milang=nl&mizk_alle=De+Goede#inv3t1
His great-great-grandfather was indeed Arian De Goede (1766-1842) and mr. dr. AdG has indeed been professor in the Dutch Indies (c.1951-1954), as Vleer writes. He also lived in Utrecht in 1950.
Together with Herman Wirth ("prof. dr. Herman Felix Wirth Roeper Bosch" as he sometimes named himself) he had founded "Stichting voor Oergodsdienstgeschiedenis" in 1949, but within 2 months they ended it as a result of conflicts.
Other than a book by Overwijn, the inventory has no entries that directly refer to the OLB, but it is clear that De Goede invested much effort in Westfrisian history, language and culture.
If the note of his g-g-grandfather really exists it would be highly significant.
There should be references to it somewhere in his notes or correspondence.
Jensma did not mention De Goede in his thesis.
This deserves further investigation.
27 June 2012
Letters Ottema & Over de Lindens
Translations of correspondence (letters and -fragments) between Dr. J.G. Ottema and the Over de Lindens (between 1871-1877), in chronological order.
1) Cornelis Over de Linden to Dr. Ottema, 08-11-1871:
Den Helder, 8 November 1871
Dear and erudite sir,
I am pleased that we have come to an agreement.
When nothing is in the way, one can think more clearly. Therefore I will once more point at my earlier comments.
You would prefer to translate 'poppenkoningen' into 'papenkings' ['paap' is an invection for catholics]. Here in Westfriesland strangers are called 'pop', terms like 'poppe-horses' and '-pigs' are known too.
Thus you would not risk a mistake if you would use 'strange kings' for 'poppa koningen'. You say: "In Apolonnia's book, the 'Formleer' is the purest representation of Godness, that most agrees with the Christian view. More sublime than Jehova from the old Testament, who goes for a walk in the garden of Eden in the morning, to have a chat with Adam.
If you want to prevent that many people will put the book aside, prejudiced at first sight, you should - according to my modest mind - avoid things that can upset people. One catches more flies with syrup than with vinegar.
[...]
When children need to swallow a bitter medicine, to free them of worms that hinder their growth, we don't say: "swallow this, stupid, because it's for your own good"; but we comfort them with sweet words and candy.
That's how scholars who want to elevate the people should act, rather than inveigh them with terms like grey, donkeys, etc.
You want to replace the word 'od' with 'animosity'. On page 128 I find FIAND for enemy. I would rather see you use 'fertilising force' - or a more appropriate term. The word animosity will cause animosity. [Ottema would later change 'animosity' in 'hatred'.] When one speaks to youths about love, they will fall in love. But when one speaks to them of war, they will separate in groups and play soldier, to the great pleasure of despotism.
[...]
Having nothing else bothering me, I greet you friendly, and am respectfully at your service,
C. Over de Linden.
======
2) Cornelis Over de Linden to Dr. Ottema, 16-11-1871:
I don't have the slightest doubts that one day the truth will come float to the surface, but now that I have studied your translation, I figure that the laws described in it are very radical, and that when the theology it teaches would become that of the people again, all sorts of clergymen would have to find a new job. That is why I think they will oppose it as much as is in their power.
======
3) Cornelis Over de Linden to Dr. Ottema, dated Den Helder 11-06-1872 (Dutch original here):
Honorable and very learned Sir!
A request for revision, says W. de L. in Spectator magazine of 21 October 1871 # 42, the same I ask you, and all who reject the so-called 'RUN-SKRIFT' as of younger date.
In your translation I read: "Oh dear, never let the eyes of a monk gaze upon this script, they speak sweet words, but... etc."
From this fear of monks I dare conclude, that they had already captured many of our old manuscripts. I also dare believe that the Over de Lindens have not been the only ones, who possessed the book of Adela Follistar. When I follow the history of the manuscript, I dare assume that the Romans, the Phoenicians, the Greeks and all Mediterranean peoples learned the letterscript from us.
Not copied from the geometric lines of the Jol, but from less neatly produced Frisian manuscripts.
In the times when I tortured myself trying to read the handwriting, someone said to me that they might be Phoenician letters. So I looked for a book about the Phoenician language and found one with the title: "Paläographische Studien über phönizische und punische Schrift - Herausgegeben von D. Wilhelm Gesenius. Mit 6 lithographirten tafelen. Leipzig 1835."
The letters in that book are very different, but many of them are similar to the STAND and the RUN-SKRIFT as presented in the manuscript. Many or most of the prints of tokens with letters, depict women's heads, that reminded me of the Frisian honorary Mothers. The author says that every Phoenician colony had its own letterscript. But I could not follow him, because he compared the letters with Hebrew ones, which I don't know.
If my notion is right, we have been the lettergivers of all Mediterranean peoples. As the Nordic peoples always have been - and still are - the real sea dogs, the French with all their elevated theories not excluded, they were also most in need of letters and ciphars.
That the monks, who have invented their own letterscript, stifled ours to make it unreadable, lies in their nature. But who knows how many Copies of the book of Adela's Folstar remain here and elsewhere with kings or in Rome. Now that more than a thousand years have passed, they may have introduced the walking script as capitals, because they are similar to our capitals.
If you are so weak as to reject the walking script, out of fear for some barkers, than it is as if you want to duel with the sheath, while passing the sword to them.
For in the manuscript it says: "When Fàsta was Mother of honor, she made the running or walking script out of it. The Witking, that is sea king Godfried... etc." So, if the runscript was added more recently, then the above fragment was also added, and then anything can have been added. So I keep protesting against the mutilation.
[...]
After affable greetings, also to your Niece,
Yours,
C. Over de Linden
======
4) Cornelis Over de Linden to Dr. Ottema, 26-10-1873:
I gave a copy of The Oera Linda Bok [Ottema's translation] to a cousin of mine who works in the town hall of Enkhuizen. He borrowed it to the gentlemen of the town hall. One of those gentlemen made the remark, that the ALDEGAMUEDE must be the 'Oudergouw' near Enkhuizen, NOT 'Ouddorp' near Alkmaar. This 'Oudergouw' is a brook right behind the city that is being dried these days. It is three poles, that is half a tide or three hours from Medeasblik.
======
5) Dr. Ottema to L.F. Over de Linden, 04-03-1875:
For our ciphars we are not indebted to the Arabs, for the simple reason, that they never used such figures as ciphars, and we therefore could not have gotten ours from them.
======
6) Dr. Ottema to L.F. Over de Linden, 26-01-1876:
Od (anger, rage, hate, animosity) trad to-ra binna, means that hate entered the hearts of the three daughters of Irtha; this hate was obviously inherited by all of their descendants, and this is cause of the inborn, innate animosity specially in Finda's and Lyda's posterity against Frya's children. An animosity that will not end until the people of Finda and Lyda will be exterminated, and the people of Frya at the final victory will remain and inherit and possess the whole earth.
This animosity dominates all of history in the OLB and still goes on in our days. Frya's people pervade in all continents and establish European supremacy all over the earth. Everywhere the peoples of Finda and Lyda will have to submit or disappear.
======
7) Dr. Ottema to L.F. Over de Linden, 17-3-1876:
Dear Sir!
I will answer both your questions shortly.
First, where does the story (or statement) come from, that we (the Western peoples) would have borrowed our ciphers from the Arabs?
It is not a story, and not based on any historical fact, but a wild guess, that has been parroted by the gullible crowds for three centuries now. Much was written about that. When scholars asked the question, where our ciphers had originated, they tacitly assumed, that they had to come from abroad; because it was out of the question that the peoples of Middle and Western Europe had invented anything by themselves. Therefore one of them guessed that the Hebrews, another that the Phoenicians, and yet another that the Egyptians would be the inventors of our ciphers. Each argued his opinion with erudition. The ones who claimed it had been the Arabs were most successful, because the latter were known to use a decimal system. But one forgot, that if we had learned our ciphers from the Arabs, we would also have adopted the shape of those Arabic ciphers. And that's how this guess was accepted as a prevailing truth.
Concerning your other question, what proof there is for my statement, that the figures in the Alhambra decorations were derived from the Fryan script, I can only say this. There is no positive evidence, only a negative one. Namely, they could not have been derived from anything else. Apparently they are not random fantasy shapes, but deliberate imitations of figures that one has seen somewhere. And where else can they have seen them than in the shapes of the western ciphars?
Who finds this statement somewhat bold, may answer the question differently, and show where else these figures were found.
It would please me to learn from you what rev. Grottendiek will reveal of his research. But always remember, that no-one can measure the spirit of the book, who does not completely understand the language, and can observe and consider all nuances in variety of language form, spelling, and style in all parts that are collected in the book.
With kind greetings
======
8) Dr. Ottema to L.F. Over de Linden, 13-06-1876:
On a memorial stone of Domburg Neef Teunis is standing next to Nehalennia.
You can also see him on the tower of Zierikzee, where he has the job of weather vane,
and all his life was known to the people of Zierikzee as nothing other than Neef Teunis.
======
9) Dr. Ottema to L.F. Over de Linden, 24-06-1876:
I wish someone would act who is courageous enough to defend the OLB in public, without fear for the systematic intimidation.
Because all the howling is intimidation, started by Spectator magazine and systematically sustained.
There are enough proponents, but they dare not speak, out of fear of being declared fool or villain.
======
10) Dr. Ottema to L.F. Over de Linden, dated june or july 1876:
Concerning the waterlines, the making of paper on wire frames was invented by the Goths in Spain between the years 1035 when Toledo was conquered, and 1238 when Valencia was conquered. They already used watermills and stamping techniques to process cotton tatters. See: Meyers Conversations Lexicon; art. Paper.
[...] Remember this: no chlorine and no amylose, therefore no machine-made paper. I would be surprised if the ink is anything else than pure lamp-soot, that remains black and does not corrode the paper.
======
11) Dr. Ottema to L.F. Over de Linden, 03-03-1877:
(About a letter he had received from E. Leyte, editor of the German Correspondent in Baltimore, dated 6-2-1877.)
The author informed me that in the wide mouth of the Amazon River, a group of islands is located, known as 'Inkas Islands', and inhabited to date by a human race with blue eyes and blond hair.
This information was of great value to me, because until now I had found nothing, that I could use to determine with some probability, a spot where Inka might have landed. I always expected that he would have ended up somewhere at the north-coast of Brasil, but now it has become clear to me, that the name of these islands keep a memory to Inka, and prove that he sailed and settled there with his fleet. The descendants of this colony of Frisians and Fins (specially the latter) will have moved land-inwards along the coasts of the Amazon River during many centuries, until they arrived at the west coast of America, where they were found back in Chile and Peru, 3500 years later.
Isn't it remarkable that someone in Baltimore is motivated to send me a message that unexpectedly explains such a great mystery?
And isn't it remarkable as well that on those Inka Islands the Frisian type was preserved, and in Peru and Chile the Finnish type is found?
======
12) Dr. Ottema to L.F. Over de Linden, 16-03-1877:
But now for something of great importance. The black lions of Apollonia with the Marsaten have been found in Switzerland! They had always bothered me, although I for myself was confident, that they someday would show up; because the OLB does not lie!
Mr. J. Dirks namely informed the meeting that he had received a letter from Switzerland, from one of his prehistoric congress friends, about archaeological finds there. In a collection of bones of various species (including humans), the remains had been found of lions of a special species, that is now extinct. For us this is a colossal discovery!
======
13) Dr. Ottema to L.F. Over de Linden, 04-05-1877:
These days I realised something concerning Beckering Vinckers' accusation of a cunningly devised plan.
Your father did not have a plan to have the manuscript printed or made public. Under pressure of Verwijs, and when the content was still unknown to him, he had initially agreed, but when he got disappointed that Verwijs did not keep his promise [to translate the manuscript], your father believed he was no longer bound to the permission he had given. Please read our letters from early 1871 (I think), and you will see how he resisted with tooth and nail against my plan for publication. Someone who wants to mislead the world would not do that, he would have grabbed the opportunity to carry out his deception with both hands. Kuipers [the printer] and I almost had to force him, and harsh words were exchanged.
======
14) Dr. Ottema to L.F. Over de Linden, 19-05-1877:
Dear Sir!
The publication of your defence was well received. Whoever I asked thought the booklet was well written and had read it with pleasure. I sent a copy to Dr. Vitringa, trusting that he will mention it in the Deventer Newspaper, just like he discussed Beckering Vinckers' brochure.
As always busy researching, rethinking and collecting, I have elaborated a comment these days, that I will explain to you. Concerning the manuscript it is important, specially because Suffridus Petrus, de Scriptoribus Frisiae mentions in his introduction, that Friso left several writings, one of them a travel diary and biography; that he had written them in the Frisian language and with Greek characters, and that his successors wrote just like that, until the times that the Roman script became current in Germania.
He did not mention how or where he had learned about that (as was not his habit), but he can not have sucked that out of his thumb.
Something must have come to his knowledge of Frisian notes, from the times in which the Ovira Lindas wrote, and that travel diary (about the journey from India to Friesland) may be related to Ljudgert's diary.
Informations like this from Suffridus used to be considered as fabulations, but among those fabulations there may turn out to be more truth than was presumed. It is also acknowledged that Suffridus Petrus never lied, but that he would have copied from earlier sources.
Receive this letter in good health and be friendly greeted.
P.S. I may have an immodest request: can I keep the copy of Volney, as a souvenir to your father?
1) Cornelis Over de Linden to Dr. Ottema, 08-11-1871:
Den Helder, 8 November 1871
Dear and erudite sir,
I am pleased that we have come to an agreement.
When nothing is in the way, one can think more clearly. Therefore I will once more point at my earlier comments.
You would prefer to translate 'poppenkoningen' into 'papenkings' ['paap' is an invection for catholics]. Here in Westfriesland strangers are called 'pop', terms like 'poppe-horses' and '-pigs' are known too.
Thus you would not risk a mistake if you would use 'strange kings' for 'poppa koningen'. You say: "In Apolonnia's book, the 'Formleer' is the purest representation of Godness, that most agrees with the Christian view. More sublime than Jehova from the old Testament, who goes for a walk in the garden of Eden in the morning, to have a chat with Adam.
If you want to prevent that many people will put the book aside, prejudiced at first sight, you should - according to my modest mind - avoid things that can upset people. One catches more flies with syrup than with vinegar.
[...]
When children need to swallow a bitter medicine, to free them of worms that hinder their growth, we don't say: "swallow this, stupid, because it's for your own good"; but we comfort them with sweet words and candy.
That's how scholars who want to elevate the people should act, rather than inveigh them with terms like grey, donkeys, etc.
You want to replace the word 'od' with 'animosity'. On page 128 I find FIAND for enemy. I would rather see you use 'fertilising force' - or a more appropriate term. The word animosity will cause animosity. [Ottema would later change 'animosity' in 'hatred'.] When one speaks to youths about love, they will fall in love. But when one speaks to them of war, they will separate in groups and play soldier, to the great pleasure of despotism.
[...]
Having nothing else bothering me, I greet you friendly, and am respectfully at your service,
C. Over de Linden.
======
2) Cornelis Over de Linden to Dr. Ottema, 16-11-1871:
I don't have the slightest doubts that one day the truth will come float to the surface, but now that I have studied your translation, I figure that the laws described in it are very radical, and that when the theology it teaches would become that of the people again, all sorts of clergymen would have to find a new job. That is why I think they will oppose it as much as is in their power.
======
3) Cornelis Over de Linden to Dr. Ottema, dated Den Helder 11-06-1872 (Dutch original here):
Honorable and very learned Sir!
A request for revision, says W. de L. in Spectator magazine of 21 October 1871 # 42, the same I ask you, and all who reject the so-called 'RUN-SKRIFT' as of younger date.
In your translation I read: "Oh dear, never let the eyes of a monk gaze upon this script, they speak sweet words, but... etc."
From this fear of monks I dare conclude, that they had already captured many of our old manuscripts. I also dare believe that the Over de Lindens have not been the only ones, who possessed the book of Adela Follistar. When I follow the history of the manuscript, I dare assume that the Romans, the Phoenicians, the Greeks and all Mediterranean peoples learned the letterscript from us.
Not copied from the geometric lines of the Jol, but from less neatly produced Frisian manuscripts.
In the times when I tortured myself trying to read the handwriting, someone said to me that they might be Phoenician letters. So I looked for a book about the Phoenician language and found one with the title: "Paläographische Studien über phönizische und punische Schrift - Herausgegeben von D. Wilhelm Gesenius. Mit 6 lithographirten tafelen. Leipzig 1835."
The letters in that book are very different, but many of them are similar to the STAND and the RUN-SKRIFT as presented in the manuscript. Many or most of the prints of tokens with letters, depict women's heads, that reminded me of the Frisian honorary Mothers. The author says that every Phoenician colony had its own letterscript. But I could not follow him, because he compared the letters with Hebrew ones, which I don't know.
If my notion is right, we have been the lettergivers of all Mediterranean peoples. As the Nordic peoples always have been - and still are - the real sea dogs, the French with all their elevated theories not excluded, they were also most in need of letters and ciphars.
That the monks, who have invented their own letterscript, stifled ours to make it unreadable, lies in their nature. But who knows how many Copies of the book of Adela's Folstar remain here and elsewhere with kings or in Rome. Now that more than a thousand years have passed, they may have introduced the walking script as capitals, because they are similar to our capitals.
If you are so weak as to reject the walking script, out of fear for some barkers, than it is as if you want to duel with the sheath, while passing the sword to them.
For in the manuscript it says: "When Fàsta was Mother of honor, she made the running or walking script out of it. The Witking, that is sea king Godfried... etc." So, if the runscript was added more recently, then the above fragment was also added, and then anything can have been added. So I keep protesting against the mutilation.
[...]
After affable greetings, also to your Niece,
Yours,
C. Over de Linden
======
4) Cornelis Over de Linden to Dr. Ottema, 26-10-1873:
I gave a copy of The Oera Linda Bok [Ottema's translation] to a cousin of mine who works in the town hall of Enkhuizen. He borrowed it to the gentlemen of the town hall. One of those gentlemen made the remark, that the ALDEGAMUEDE must be the 'Oudergouw' near Enkhuizen, NOT 'Ouddorp' near Alkmaar. This 'Oudergouw' is a brook right behind the city that is being dried these days. It is three poles, that is half a tide or three hours from Medeasblik.
======
5) Dr. Ottema to L.F. Over de Linden, 04-03-1875:
For our ciphars we are not indebted to the Arabs, for the simple reason, that they never used such figures as ciphars, and we therefore could not have gotten ours from them.
======
6) Dr. Ottema to L.F. Over de Linden, 26-01-1876:
Od (anger, rage, hate, animosity) trad to-ra binna, means that hate entered the hearts of the three daughters of Irtha; this hate was obviously inherited by all of their descendants, and this is cause of the inborn, innate animosity specially in Finda's and Lyda's posterity against Frya's children. An animosity that will not end until the people of Finda and Lyda will be exterminated, and the people of Frya at the final victory will remain and inherit and possess the whole earth.
This animosity dominates all of history in the OLB and still goes on in our days. Frya's people pervade in all continents and establish European supremacy all over the earth. Everywhere the peoples of Finda and Lyda will have to submit or disappear.
======
7) Dr. Ottema to L.F. Over de Linden, 17-3-1876:
Dear Sir!
I will answer both your questions shortly.
First, where does the story (or statement) come from, that we (the Western peoples) would have borrowed our ciphers from the Arabs?
It is not a story, and not based on any historical fact, but a wild guess, that has been parroted by the gullible crowds for three centuries now. Much was written about that. When scholars asked the question, where our ciphers had originated, they tacitly assumed, that they had to come from abroad; because it was out of the question that the peoples of Middle and Western Europe had invented anything by themselves. Therefore one of them guessed that the Hebrews, another that the Phoenicians, and yet another that the Egyptians would be the inventors of our ciphers. Each argued his opinion with erudition. The ones who claimed it had been the Arabs were most successful, because the latter were known to use a decimal system. But one forgot, that if we had learned our ciphers from the Arabs, we would also have adopted the shape of those Arabic ciphers. And that's how this guess was accepted as a prevailing truth.
Concerning your other question, what proof there is for my statement, that the figures in the Alhambra decorations were derived from the Fryan script, I can only say this. There is no positive evidence, only a negative one. Namely, they could not have been derived from anything else. Apparently they are not random fantasy shapes, but deliberate imitations of figures that one has seen somewhere. And where else can they have seen them than in the shapes of the western ciphars?
Who finds this statement somewhat bold, may answer the question differently, and show where else these figures were found.
It would please me to learn from you what rev. Grottendiek will reveal of his research. But always remember, that no-one can measure the spirit of the book, who does not completely understand the language, and can observe and consider all nuances in variety of language form, spelling, and style in all parts that are collected in the book.
With kind greetings
======
8) Dr. Ottema to L.F. Over de Linden, 13-06-1876:
On a memorial stone of Domburg Neef Teunis is standing next to Nehalennia.
You can also see him on the tower of Zierikzee, where he has the job of weather vane,
and all his life was known to the people of Zierikzee as nothing other than Neef Teunis.
======
9) Dr. Ottema to L.F. Over de Linden, 24-06-1876:
I wish someone would act who is courageous enough to defend the OLB in public, without fear for the systematic intimidation.
Because all the howling is intimidation, started by Spectator magazine and systematically sustained.
There are enough proponents, but they dare not speak, out of fear of being declared fool or villain.
======
10) Dr. Ottema to L.F. Over de Linden, dated june or july 1876:
Concerning the waterlines, the making of paper on wire frames was invented by the Goths in Spain between the years 1035 when Toledo was conquered, and 1238 when Valencia was conquered. They already used watermills and stamping techniques to process cotton tatters. See: Meyers Conversations Lexicon; art. Paper.
[...] Remember this: no chlorine and no amylose, therefore no machine-made paper. I would be surprised if the ink is anything else than pure lamp-soot, that remains black and does not corrode the paper.
======
11) Dr. Ottema to L.F. Over de Linden, 03-03-1877:
(About a letter he had received from E. Leyte, editor of the German Correspondent in Baltimore, dated 6-2-1877.)
The author informed me that in the wide mouth of the Amazon River, a group of islands is located, known as 'Inkas Islands', and inhabited to date by a human race with blue eyes and blond hair.
This information was of great value to me, because until now I had found nothing, that I could use to determine with some probability, a spot where Inka might have landed. I always expected that he would have ended up somewhere at the north-coast of Brasil, but now it has become clear to me, that the name of these islands keep a memory to Inka, and prove that he sailed and settled there with his fleet. The descendants of this colony of Frisians and Fins (specially the latter) will have moved land-inwards along the coasts of the Amazon River during many centuries, until they arrived at the west coast of America, where they were found back in Chile and Peru, 3500 years later.
Isn't it remarkable that someone in Baltimore is motivated to send me a message that unexpectedly explains such a great mystery?
And isn't it remarkable as well that on those Inka Islands the Frisian type was preserved, and in Peru and Chile the Finnish type is found?
======
12) Dr. Ottema to L.F. Over de Linden, 16-03-1877:
But now for something of great importance. The black lions of Apollonia with the Marsaten have been found in Switzerland! They had always bothered me, although I for myself was confident, that they someday would show up; because the OLB does not lie!
Mr. J. Dirks namely informed the meeting that he had received a letter from Switzerland, from one of his prehistoric congress friends, about archaeological finds there. In a collection of bones of various species (including humans), the remains had been found of lions of a special species, that is now extinct. For us this is a colossal discovery!
======
13) Dr. Ottema to L.F. Over de Linden, 04-05-1877:
These days I realised something concerning Beckering Vinckers' accusation of a cunningly devised plan.
Your father did not have a plan to have the manuscript printed or made public. Under pressure of Verwijs, and when the content was still unknown to him, he had initially agreed, but when he got disappointed that Verwijs did not keep his promise [to translate the manuscript], your father believed he was no longer bound to the permission he had given. Please read our letters from early 1871 (I think), and you will see how he resisted with tooth and nail against my plan for publication. Someone who wants to mislead the world would not do that, he would have grabbed the opportunity to carry out his deception with both hands. Kuipers [the printer] and I almost had to force him, and harsh words were exchanged.
======
14) Dr. Ottema to L.F. Over de Linden, 19-05-1877:
Dear Sir!
The publication of your defence was well received. Whoever I asked thought the booklet was well written and had read it with pleasure. I sent a copy to Dr. Vitringa, trusting that he will mention it in the Deventer Newspaper, just like he discussed Beckering Vinckers' brochure.
As always busy researching, rethinking and collecting, I have elaborated a comment these days, that I will explain to you. Concerning the manuscript it is important, specially because Suffridus Petrus, de Scriptoribus Frisiae mentions in his introduction, that Friso left several writings, one of them a travel diary and biography; that he had written them in the Frisian language and with Greek characters, and that his successors wrote just like that, until the times that the Roman script became current in Germania.
He did not mention how or where he had learned about that (as was not his habit), but he can not have sucked that out of his thumb.
Something must have come to his knowledge of Frisian notes, from the times in which the Ovira Lindas wrote, and that travel diary (about the journey from India to Friesland) may be related to Ljudgert's diary.
Informations like this from Suffridus used to be considered as fabulations, but among those fabulations there may turn out to be more truth than was presumed. It is also acknowledged that Suffridus Petrus never lied, but that he would have copied from earlier sources.
Receive this letter in good health and be friendly greeted.
P.S. I may have an immodest request: can I keep the copy of Volney, as a souvenir to your father?
12 June 2012
JON SWOR WRÉKA
Posted Today, 11:00 AM
Blithon sal rehlico
so he gesiet uuraca
so he gesiet uuraca
THI RJUCHTLIKA SKIL HIM FORBLYDA
SAHWERSA HI WRÉKE BISJATH
wraka, wreka, wrake, wreke, wracu, etc. ~ old-dutch, old-saxon, gothic, old-frisian, old-english, old-northfrench, old-german, etc.
It has survived in Dutch (wraak), Frisian (wrake, wraek, wrek) and German (rache).
Possibly, the English 'wrath' and the Dutch 'wreed' are related.
Here are the 11 OLB-fragments that have the word.
As always, with Ottema and Sandbach translations (and my suggestions added).
[026/31] Minno's Skrifun
WILLATH HJA HIM SIN LIF BIHALDA LÉTA
ÁND THJU WRÉKA OFKAPIA LÉTA.
SA MÉI MAN THAT DÁJA
ÁND THJU WRÉKA OFKAPIA LÉTA.
SA MÉI MAN THAT DÁJA
[O+S p.41]
Willen zij hem zijn lijf laten behouden
en de wraak laten afkoopen,
zoo mag men dat gedoogen.
If
the offended
[they] will spare his lifeand
forego their
[buy-off the] revenge,
it may be permitted.
[041/33] Setma and Domar
NE FLUCHTER NAVT
SA IS ER AN THA WRÉKE THÉR BITROGNA VRLÉTEN.
SA IS ER AN THA WRÉKE THÉR BITROGNA VRLÉTEN.
[O+S p.61]
vlucht hij niet,
dan wordt hij aan de wraak der bedrogene overgelaten
if he does not [flee],
he may be given over to the vengeance of
he may be given over to the vengeance of
those whom he has
[the] offended
[042/] Domar Nydiga
BÉRTHET JETA RÉIS SA MOT I THACH NÉI THA TIN.LÁNUM.
TILTHJU MÀN THÉRTHRVCH FORMITHA ALL VNERIMDE WRÉKA ÀND FÉITHA
TILTHJU MÀN THÉRTHRVCH FORMITHA ALL VNERIMDE WRÉKA ÀND FÉITHA
[O+S p.63]
gebeurt het nog eenmaal, dan moet hij toch naar de tinlanden,
opdat men daardoor vermijde alle
onbehoorlijke
[ongerijmde] wraak en veete.
if it happens a second time, he must go to the tin mines,
in order to avoid any unseemly hatred or vengeance.
in order to avoid any unseemly hatred or vengeance.
[043/07] Domar Horninga
HY MÉI FLÍA SA R KÀN THACH NÀRNE SKIL SÉKUR WÉSA FARA WRÉKANDE HÁND.
[O+S p.63]
Hij mag vlieden zoo hij kan, nergens zal hij veilig wezen voor de wrekende hand.
and wherever
he may flee [if he can], [but] he shall never be secure from the avenging justice
[hand].
[069/09] Ho't Jon vrgvng
MEN JON SWOR WRÉKA THÉRVR
[O+S p.97]
Maar Jon zwoer wraak daarover
but Jon swore
to be revenged
[revenge] for it
[070/02] Ho't Jon vrgvng
FONUTA LITHA É.LANDA GVNGER UT WRÉKA THA THÍRJAR SKÉPA ÀND LANDA BIRÁWA
[O+S p.99]
Van de kleine eilanden uit ging hij uit wraak de Thyrische schepen en landen plunderen
From the smaller islands he made expeditions for vengeance on the Tyrians, and plundered their ships and their lands
[085/08] Frana vrmord
WRÉKE WILLATH WI THÉR VR NAVT NE HROPA THAM SKIL TYD NIMA
[O+S p.117]
Wraak willen wij daarover niet roepen, die zal de tijd nemen
We do not ask for revenge. Time will provide that
[090/09] Apollánja
THÉR HETHER EN BURCH EBUWAD LINDA.S.BURCH HÉTEN.
VMBE DÁNA TO WREKANA VS LÉTH.
VMBE DÁNA TO WREKANA VS LÉTH.
[O+S p.125]
Daar heeft hij eene burgt gebouwd, Lindasburgt geheeten,
om daar ons leed te wreken.
There he built a citadel named Lindasburgt,
in order there to avenge our
in order there to avenge our
wrong
[suffering].
[115/02] Fréthorik Oeralinda
MIN TÁT THÉR RJUCHTER WÉRE WILDE HJA WRÉKEN HÁ
[O+S p.159]
Mijn vader, die rechter was, wilde haar gewroken hebben
My father, who was a judge, would have her avenged
[138/15] Jesus fon Kasamir
TO THA LERSTA MOST.ER FLUCHTA VR THA WRÉKE THÉRA PRESTERA
[O+S p.187]
Ten laatste moest hij vluchten om de wraak der priesteren
At last he was obliged to flee from the wrath [or: revenge] of the priests
[147/16] Vr Friso
THRVCH THA LUST THÉRE WRÉKE ÀJEN THA GOLUM ÀND ÀJEN THA KÀLTANA FOLGAR
[O+S p.201]
door de lust tot wraak tegen de Golen en tegen de Kalta
na
volgers
by their desire [lust] for vengeance upon the Gauls, and the followers of
Kaltona
[Kàlta]19th Century paper?
Posted Yesterday, 10:47 AM
Abramelin, on 10 June 2012 - 07:25 AM, said:
I meant the posts by Swede and others about geology, Cormac's posts about genetics, and posts about archeology.
Posts that were critical concerning the theories in his book.
Posts that were critical concerning the theories in his book.
Those critical posts were not strong enough to make me doubt that his main conclusion is right.
For me, even without Alewyn's evidence, it is evident that OLB must be authentic, because it is just way too complex for human minds to fabricate something like that out of nothing, specially in the 18th century.
If it were a 19th century hoax, it would fit more in the belief system of that time. Things in it that by then were considered totally outrageous, by now actually seem to be possible.
If it were fake, that should become more evident through the years, not less, which is the case.
And like I said before: why does that paper-study have to take more than five years?
Still no clear results.
If the paper would be from a 19th century factory, that can be established within one week.
Edit: one thing I think he should have mentioned is, that the flood year was also known in 19th (18th?) century Frisian almanaks.
Posted Yesterday, 01:54 PM
Abramelin, on 11 June 2012 - 01:05 PM, said:
I think the bolded sentence in the last quote gives the major limitation here: the OLB manuscript has of course been in many hands during more than 160 years.
I don't think it should be too difficult to remove a very thin layer from both sides of a scrap.
Besides carbon dating, comparison with known paper from 19th century factories should be easy.
The claim was that it would be from a particular factury in Maastricht.
Paper from this factory must be available in archives.
If the claim is true, the composition of the paper should be the same.
Posted Yesterday, 02:23 PM
Abramelin, on 11 June 2012 - 02:20 PM, said:
I have serious doubts about how people in the 19th century handled the manuscript. As you know, nowadays they use those white disposable gloves.
That why I said they can remove a microscopic layer.
Quote
About that paper factury in Maastricht: didn't they have samples of their paper and had it not already been compared with the paper of the manuscript?
If they have, it didn't provide the proof they wanted or it would have been published.
Posted Yesterday, 04:55 PM
Abramelin, on 11 June 2012 - 03:12 PM, said:
(Volunteers Research into heritage
OERA LINDA BOOK UNRAVELED?)
OERA LINDA BOOK UNRAVELED?)
A demagogic article with some false conclusions.
For example:
"Dit onderzoek moest uitwijzen of niet eerder bestudeerde, onbeschreven vellen die Over de Linden in het geheim had bewaard, overeenstemden met het handschrift. En ja, de vellen bleken qua samenstelling zelfs vrijwel identiek te zijn: het bewijs dat Over de Lindens als ‘afschrijver’ bij het werk betrokken was."
"This examination would have to prove that previously unexamined, empty sheets of paper that Over de Linden had secretly kept, were the same as the manuscript. And yes, the sheets were of almost the same composition: Proof that Over de Linden had been involved as copyist."
My comments:
1. That he would have "secretly kept" them is an interpretation, not a fact, and it also does not make sense. If he was indeed the copyist, he would have gotten rid of the empty sheets, as he kept fanatically defending his truth till his death bed.
2. The sheets are of "almost the same composition", that means not of the same stock.
3. Even if they were of the same stock, that would not prove that OdL has to have been "involved as copyist". In theory, his uncle Hendrik Reuvers, or the husband of his cousin, Rijkent Kofman, could have made the copy. OdL could have received the manuscript including the empty sheets. That would explein why he kept them. He saw no harm in it. If he would have been 'guilty' of making the copy, he would not have been so stupid as to keep the leftover paper.
Posted Yesterday, 05:07 PM
Something else:
"De makers lieten het papier in een kleurstof vergelen, daarna droogden en persten ze het voordat ze het beschreven."
"The makers colored the paper in a (liquid) pigment, then they dried and pressed it before they wrote on it."
If this would be the case, the paper would be colored in the inside as well, because a liquid would penetrate the fibres.
But the paper is white from the inside.
And why do they not mention what sort of pigment was used for the coloring?
That should have been an easy one, since they can compare with the empty sheets.
When I asked them this last year, they answered that they would no longer answer my questions.
If the 'makers' would have done all this effort, they could have easily made the paper look older than it does.
It just all does not make sense.
"De makers lieten het papier in een kleurstof vergelen, daarna droogden en persten ze het voordat ze het beschreven."
"The makers colored the paper in a (liquid) pigment, then they dried and pressed it before they wrote on it."
If this would be the case, the paper would be colored in the inside as well, because a liquid would penetrate the fibres.
But the paper is white from the inside.
And why do they not mention what sort of pigment was used for the coloring?
That should have been an easy one, since they can compare with the empty sheets.
When I asked them this last year, they answered that they would no longer answer my questions.
If the 'makers' would have done all this effort, they could have easily made the paper look older than it does.
It just all does not make sense.
Posted Yesterday, 10:19 PM
Abramelin, on 11 June 2012 - 06:14 PM, said:
I can only make sense of it when I think like this:
-1- These 3 people had to pay from their own pockets to be able to do the research.
-2- It will have cost them quite a lot of money (and time).
-3- They will publish their findings at the end of this year, and.... probably on some site where you must pay for some paper/document to have it sent to you.
-4- And by that get compensated somewhat for their financial investment.
-1- These 3 people had to pay from their own pockets to be able to do the research.
-2- It will have cost them quite a lot of money (and time).
-3- They will publish their findings at the end of this year, and.... probably on some site where you must pay for some paper/document to have it sent to you.
-4- And by that get compensated somewhat for their financial investment.
I do not think any money is involved.
The only thing they invested was their time.
They also will not try to sell it.
By stressing the fact that it is a voluntary project they suggest to be independent, but they are totally biased.
What this article does not say is that Jensma leads the project.
Again, his theory is presented as fact, although none of the specialists who were speaking at the presentation of his book in 2004 believed it.
The information this paper group supplies is vague, incomplete and suggestive. They should be happy that someone is interested, but when I started asking critical questions, they closed the door. That is the kind of behavior of someone who is lying.
Between the lines, I read that they are either blinded by tunnel vision (they see only what they want to see), or they are indeed lying. I know they would have good reasons to do that.
Posted Today, 10:16 AM
Abramelin, on 12 June 2012 - 08:47 AM, said:
Instead of discussing the article about the research, here is the research paper itself:
The Oera Linda Boek - A literary forgery and its paper
The Oera Linda Boek - A literary forgery and its paper
Yes, I remember emailing that to you.
Good thing that you published it online now.
He is my discussion about it (copy from UM onto my blog):
http://fryskednis.bl...scientific.html
Posted Today, 11:38 AM
Abramelin, on 12 June 2012 - 11:35 AM, said:
And after recently an unknown picture of Haverschmidt from 1868 showed up in his (= Cornelis Over de Linden's) granddaughter's inheritance, Jensma now hopes for a similar find: a letter.
No, that was about HaverSchmidt's inheritance, not that of OdL.
Posted Today, 12:07 PM
Abramelin, on 12 June 2012 - 11:44 AM, said:
I don't think that's what they mean: what would it prove or disprove if a granddaughter owns a photo of her grandfather? But it would certainly look like a clue if it was Over de Linden's granddaughter who owned a photo of HaverSchmidt.
Jensma still hopes to find proof that HaverSchmidt did it, because he knows his job is not well done.
He hopes that a letter will appear in which he confesses that he was involved.
That photo simply shows that after all these years, still unknown material from/ about HaverSchmidt can surface.
Posted Today, 12:27 PM
Abramelin, on 12 June 2012 - 11:56 AM, said:
In the correspondence about the book they found a note from Verwijs that was really written on the same, for that time special 'English paper'. "Too coincidental to be a coicidence," Kardinaal chuckles. And that's how, after Over de Linden, also Verwijs let himself be caught as an accomplice.
I cannot believe these people are serious.
Here is the fragment prior to yours.
Het ontsluiten van hout was een specifiek Amerikaanse procédé, in 1866 voor het eerst commercieel toegepast in Pennsylvania en in een Engelse papierfabriek in Gloucestershire. Omdat het Oera Linda-papier sodapulp bevat, wat wijst op ontsloten hout, dateert het van minimaal 26 jaar later dan altijd werd aangenomen.
The unlocking of wood was a specific American procedure, for the first time commercially applied in 1866 in Pennsylvania and in an English paper factory in Gloucestershire. Because the Oera Linda-paper contains sodapulp, which suggests unlocked wood, it dates of minimally 26 years later than always was assumed.
How realistic is this, really?
In 1867 OdL started trying to have the manuscript translated, and he would have written it in less than one year previously, when he was already an old man, and on the newest possible paper available?!
This is totally insane.
They have not proven that the OLB paper is from that English factory, only that it contains sodapulp, "which suggests unlocked wood".
They are not even sure that Verwijs' paper is the same.
Posted Today, 12:35 PM
Abramelin, on 12 June 2012 - 12:33 PM, said:
CodL had the mansucript ready, or most of it. Then he buys that special paper, makes it look as old as the former version, and voila.
I respect your belief.
Posted Today, 12:46 PM
Abramelin, on 12 June 2012 - 12:37 PM, said:
But it is at least not as insane as you suggested.
So you would use paper that is made with a technique that is only used since let's say 2011?
Abramelin, on 12 June 2012 - 12:38 PM, said:
LOL, I am a 100% sure that when they find that letter, it will be considered a hoax!!
And I am a 100% sure they will never find such a letter, because it never existed.
Posted Today, 01:04 PM
If the paper is proven to be from that Gloucestershire factory, they should clearly say so.
They don't, they are merely suggesting it.
"The Oera Linda-paper contains sodapulp, which suggests unlocked wood."
First let them clearly prove and state that it is from that factory.
Until then I will not take them seriously.
Again, I am the skeptic here, not you.
They don't, they are merely suggesting it.
"The Oera Linda-paper contains sodapulp, which suggests unlocked wood."
First let them clearly prove and state that it is from that factory.
Until then I will not take them seriously.
Again, I am the skeptic here, not you.
Posted Today, 02:10 PM
If it was a hoax and the supposed makers appearantly made supernatural efforts to create an illusion of authenticity, why would they include things that made it totally unbelievable (in that time), like the story of Jes-us from Kasamir, and many other examples?
In this thread it became clear that the ideas in it, that in the 19th century were seen as absolutely outrageous, are all, in fact possibly true.
~ ~ ~
In this thread it became clear that the ideas in it, that in the 19th century were seen as absolutely outrageous, are all, in fact possibly true.
~ ~ ~
Article (added 21-1-2014) for future reference:
Arab paper probably contained plant (or tree) material, since they learned it from the Chinese. See fragment (p.58-59) from: "Science and Technology in Medieval European Life" by Jeffrey R. Wigelsworth; Greenwood Publishing Group, 2006.
Syntax too modern?
Posted 09 June 2012 - 11:02 AM
Abramelin, on 09 June 2012 - 10:45 AM, said:
I said 2600 years because that was when the OLB is supposed to have been put on paper the first time.
And whatever text (in runes) they have found throughout (Northern) Europe, the syntax is always totally different from any modern Germanic language, including Frisian and Dutch.
And whatever text (in runes) they have found throughout (Northern) Europe, the syntax is always totally different from any modern Germanic language, including Frisian and Dutch.
Well if it doesn't change in 2000 years, why would it change in 600 years more?
Runic inscriptions will hardly reflect spoken language, they will more be like code.
OLB is the only known source of prechristian 'Dutch'.
Appearantly syntax didn't change.
That some people find it hard to imagine, is not a valid argument against the authenticity.
Many people found it hard to imagine that Darwin's theory was right.
I have shown that almost all of my ancestors from seven generations back came from Westfriesland. For their ancestors it will mostly be the same. People would not go far from home and only marry someone that spoke the same language. I know that some people's ancestors are from all over the place. Their culture is really more 'bastardised', more confused, literally. Let's simply do a thought experiment. Texel; people have lived there for thousands of years. Why would syntax have changed dramatically? Children learn it in the first few years mostly from their mother, brothers, sisters. In areas where there have been many wars it may be different, but not on an island like that.
Anyway, I don't find it hard to imagine at all that the OLB-syntax is authentic.
We can disagree about that, but the point is, that the fact that some people find it difficult to imagine, means nothing at all.
Posted 09 June 2012 - 11:42 AM
Abramelin, on 09 June 2012 - 11:23 AM, said:
Well, read Beowulf or any other old English text of around the 8th century (or before) and you will see what I mean: you will recognize many Old Germanic words, but the syntax is very different.
Do you think people on Texel will have spoken that language in the the 8th century?
I don't.
The only real wars in North-Holland in the last 2000 years were the counts of 'Holland' trying to subdue Westfriesland, in which they only succeeded in the late 13th century.
Those counts from Holland will have been from Merovingean royal descent, judging by the name Theuderic (Diederik, Dirk) most of them had. Just like Friso did 1000 years earlier to get more influence, they will have married Frisian women (also because they were most beautiful and wise of course), and after a few generations they could have themselves be called 'comes Frisia', but that didn't mean the Frisians were willing to pay taxes. Hence the wars. In 1297 the whole male population was murdered, but the women remained and they will have taught their children the old language, although some terms may have become taboo, like after every war.
There may also have been a few Danish invasions around the time of Christenings, but then again, it was men coming, not changing much of the 'mother-tongue'.
There is no reason to believe that language in North-Holland changed much between the time of the Romans (who stayed below Rhine anyway) and the arrival of the Franks/ Merovingeans.
Posted 09 June 2012 - 11:44 AM
Abramelin, on 09 June 2012 - 11:23 AM, said:
This was not a book with mere formulas or incantations or codes, although I should add that it is suggested that Wulfila tried to stay as close as possible to the Latin and/or Greek versions of the Bible he must have used.
That's the whole point. All of the oldest sources were written by Latin schooled monks.
Nothing (other than OLB) is saved from Westfrisian spoken language.
Posted 09 June 2012 - 03:32 PM
Abramelin, on 09 June 2012 - 12:16 PM, said:
Then we go back centuries in time, and the language changes.
Why?
Quote
Did the Frisians speak a similar language as Old English (Beowulf style or older)?
Quite probably for it is known that when Willibrord tried to convert them to Christianity he didn't need an interpretor/translator.
Quite probably for it is known that when Willibrord tried to convert them to Christianity he didn't need an interpretor/translator.
Why do you think Willibrord spoke Beowulf style Old-English?
If the Westfrisians would have spoken that Beowulf style language, why and how would it have changed in only a few hundred years into Frisian/ Dutch?
In studying the OLB and Oldfrisian, I have learned that English is much more a bastardised language than Frisian and Dutch. F and D are more pure and 'in between' English, German and the Scandinavian languages. So it would only make sense if they are closer to the original 'Germanic'. I don't know much about English/ Brittish history, but it looks like there have been more wars and mixing of cultures and languages. Considering that even today Great Brittain knows several very different dialects, the 'Beowulf-style language' will not be the only Old-English that there must have been.
Posted 09 June 2012 - 04:37 PM
Abramelin, on 09 June 2012 - 12:16 PM, said:
The language used (idiom and grammar) in the OLB is very similar to what we read in those 13th century Frisian Law Texts.
We must be aware, that the OLB language (as we know it) may not be what it was when it was first compiled in the 6th C. BC.
Copyists tend to make the text they copy more understandable.
There may have been many copyists other than Liko and Hidde, all may have changed bits.
The last copy (1256 BC) may represent what was understandable in that time.
Personally I don't think that language would have had to change so much within a strong culture, where people tended to chose to marry only people of there own culture.
But this is just to remind ourselves that - when OLB is authentic - it still is a 13th century copy, so we are not sure if it perfectly reflects the language of the original version.
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