19 November 2011

Forum # 14 (nov. 9 - 20, 2011)

Posted 09 November 2011 - 09:00 PM
Knul, on 09 November 2011 - 07:36 PM, said:
You reject all evidence, that the OLB is a hoax.

What evidence?

I have asked you several times to summarise or reproduce it, so the English readers can evaluate it.

That should be easy if it is as obvious as you suggest.

I don't think you really understand this 'evidence' yourself.

Abe honestly admitted that he doesn't, he left it to you to answer my question.

But you stay silent.

If you would summarise this so-called evidence (in your own words) I can translate it for the forum.

### Posted 09 November 2011 - 10:54 PM
Knul, on 09 November 2011 - 10:08 PM, said:
Just mention me one Oldfrisian source with modern English words/expressions like yes, look, run away, merry-merry.

Alleramaennelik jef to an mery mery fru aend bly, aend nimman nêde diger than to âkane sina nocht.

The same could be said about Dutch words and expressions, but this will not be understood by English speakers, like dewijl = thawhila, afsken = ofschoon, etc.


Why do you think that those 'modern' (?) English words can't have their origin in Oldfrisian?
The correct fragment is:

[093/20]
ALLERA MÀNNELIK JEF TO AN MERY FRU ÀND BLÍDE ÀND NINMAN NÉDE DIGER THAN TO ÁKANE SINA NOCHT

Where do you think the name Merie/ Marie/ Maria/ Mary/ Mery comes from?

Like all names, it originally had a meaning.

Obviously, this is a very old name and therefore a very old word.

This is just one example.

In general my answer is: we don't know how old those words really are.

They are as old as the oldest source we find of them.


### Posted 10 November 2011 - 08:06 PM
Abramelin, on 10 November 2011 - 07:26 PM, said:
I wonder... had Joast Halbertsma or an Over de Linden or whoever ever read the Qur'an?

Well, I've read Kader Abdolah's translation.
I thought that (Ad- or Ath-people) was interesting too, and there are more possible 'co-incidences' (but sorry, no prioritime).

### Posted 11 November 2011 - 09:43 AM
Knul, on 09 November 2011 - 10:08 PM, said:
... modern English words/expressions like yes, look, run away, merry-merry. ...
The same could be said about Dutch words and expressions... like dewijl = thawhila, afsken = ofschoon, etc.


The problem with this 'proof' is that we don't actually know how old or modern these words are.

Can you prove they are modern?

What I do know is that our modern written languages have adapted more to the (much older!) spoken language.

The reason why the language of the OLB seems modern, is that it is written down as if it were spoken, much different from the classical old (more formal) texts that we are used to.

While written language could always be spoken (read aloud), spoken language was not always written down.

There still is 'street language' that is hardly ever written down.

### Posted 11 November 2011 - 10:18 AM
Knul, on 09 November 2011 - 10:08 PM, said:
... modern English words/expressions like yes...

The word "JES" is also part of the name "JES.US" [138/08].

### Posted 11 November 2011 - 10:28 AM
Knul, on 09 November 2011 - 10:08 PM, said:
... modern English words/expressions like ... run away...

From the Germanic root *rūnō. Cognate with the Old Saxon rūna, Old High German rūna (German Raun), Old Norse rún, and Gothic (rūna).
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/run

### Posted 11 November 2011 - 01:30 PM
Knul, on 11 November 2011 - 12:39 PM, said:
Otharus, so you think jes means Jessos (Jezus) in these lines?

"Jessos" is an invention by Ottema and "Jezus" is your (and Jensma's) interpretation.
In the manuscript it is "JES.US" (Jes-us, pronounced Yes-us).

Quote
By the way, the normal Oldfrisian word is ja, which occurs in the OLB as well.

There are many examples (in any language) of different words having the same meaning.

### Posted 14 November 2011 - 08:26 AM

Knul, on 14 November 2011 - 01:23 AM, said:
e. No explanation has been given for the fact, that Cornelis over de Linden communicated the OLB immediately after the death of Stadermann and that he did not even mention this name in his testament for Cornelis III.

Several other explanations are possible, like:
- It's a coincidence.
- It reminded Cornelis of his own mortality and he wanted to know what the manuscript was about before he died.
- Cornelis had hoped that Stadermann could help him translate the manuscript, either himself or by introducing him to someone else, or that he could help him find a more helpful book about Oldfrisian.

That he didn't mention Stadermann in his testament can also be explained by the fact that your theory is nonsense.

### Posted 14 November 2011 - 09:01 AM
Knul, on 11 November 2011 - 01:44 PM, said:
Very true, but in the case of te OLB we deal with written language.

The Oldfrisian laws are from a very different (formal) nature, not meant to be read aloud to the family around the fire on a cold dark winter evening, like some parts of the OLB.

### Posted 14 November 2011 - 09:23 AM
Abramelin, on 12 November 2011 - 02:02 PM, said:
The way you think about etymology appears to me you have some sort of... disrespect for that 'science'. [...] It is a real science.

So 'science' is your religion, Abe?

Scientists don't agree about everything and theories that have been accepted for a long time are sometimes totally rejected later.

Medicine and Economy are 'sciences' too and they produce an incredible amount of nonsense.

### Alewyn Raubenheimer posted 15 November 2011 - 02:13 PM
I glance at this debate every few days but I just could not resist this one. If I understand the discussion correctly, Knul and Abramelin keep on saying that the English words in the Oera Linda Book are proof that the Oera Linda Book is a hoax. If anything, I would rather say they are, in fact, proof of its authenticity (Knul, admittedly, refers to “Modern English”).

Our “trusty” Wikipedia has the following to say:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Frisian
“Old Frisian is a West Germanic language spoken between the 8th and 16th centuries in the area between the Rhine and Weser on the European North Sea coast. The Frisian settlers on the coast of South Jutland (today's Northern Friesland) also spoke Old Frisian but no medieval texts of this area are known. The language of the earlier inhabitants of the region between the Zuiderzee and Ems River (the Frisians famously mentioned by Tacitus – AD 56 to AD 117) is attested in only a few personal names and place-names. Old Frisian evolved into Middle Frisian, spoken from the 16th to the 19th century.

“In the early Middle Ages, Frisia stretched from the area around Bruges, in what is now Belgium, to the Weser River, in northern Germany. At the time, the Frisian language was spoken along the entire southern North Sea coast. This region is referred to as Greater Frisia or Frisia Magna, and many of the areas within it still treasure their Frisian heritage. However by 1300, their territory had been pushed back to the Zuiderzee (now the IJsselmeer), and the Frisian language survives along the coast only as a substrate.

“The people from what are today northern Germany and Denmark who settled in England from about 400 onwards came from the same regions and spoke more or less the same language as the people who lived in Frisia (as medieval Friesland is usually called to distinguish it from the present-day regions with that name). Hence, a close relationship exists between Old Frisian and Old English.

“Generally, Old Frisian phonologically resembles Old English. In particular, it shares the palatalisation of velar consonants also found in Old English. For example, whereas the closely related Old Saxon and Old Dutch retain the velar in dag, Old Frisian has dei and Old English has dæġ [dæj]. When followed by front vowels the Germanic /k/ softened to a /tʃ/ sound. The Old Frisian for church was tzirke or tzerke, in Old English it was ċiriċe [ˈtʃiritʃe], while Old Saxon and Old Dutch have the unpalatalised kirika. Another feature shared between the two is Anglo-Frisian brightening, which fronted a to e under some circumstances. In unstressed syllables, o merges into a, and i into e as in Old English.”
Etc. etc

From the above, it is realistic to accept that Old English developed out of Old Frisian. Yet, if one looks at a few language trees, the “experts” say that both developed in parallel from the old West Germanic language. So, somebody seems to be wrong. These same experts will have it that Afrikaans developed from Dutch and that Afrikaans and Flemish developed independently from one another. Yet, Afrikaans is much closer to Flemish than to Dutch. This tells me that these language experts are not always correct.

As for Knul’s attempt to prove that Halbertsma wrote the OLB: We have discussed this at length several months ago. In fact I showed that not even Ottema considered Halbertsma as a possibility. Now Knul comes with this “big revelation” as if no one in the Netherlands has ever considered Halbertsma. Over the last 140 years, and 17 months’ debate in this forum, nobody could prove that the OLB is a hoax. All the hoax theories are based on conjecture and by ignoring or denying the written statements, letters and other 19th century facts surrounding the book. I am yet to see a single proven fact that will support their theory. I am still baffled by the Dutch academics that are not even prepared to consider the fact that the OLB is true.

The proof of the Oera Linda lies in all the historical, archaeological and other scientific facts in the book that were not known in the 19th century. In the second edition of my book I have added many more of these facts. Unfortunately, this forum just ignores this overwhelming factual evidence as well, and continues to steer the discussion back to the language aspects. Abe and some other Dutch speaking people regard this as their strong point because, as a rule, no outsider should be able to challenge them on their own language. When people like me, who can read Dutch, point out the flaws in their arguments, they again simply ignore these and return to the language aspects. This has been the Dutch’s tactics for 140 years and people like Puzzler keep falling into the trap.

Lets face it guys, I have proven beyond doubt that the OLB is authentic. People like Jacques Fermaut who lectured French, Dutch and Latin and who has translated the OLB into French, agrees with me; so does Anthony Radford who wrote “From Goddess to King” and of course, Dr. JG Ottema who translated the OLB into Dutch. So, I believe I am in good company.

### Posted 15 November 2011 - 06:25 PM
Alewyn, on 15 November 2011 - 02:13 PM, said:
From the above, it is realistic to accept that Old English developed out of Old Frisian. Yet, if one looks at a few language trees, the “experts” say that both developed in parallel from the old West Germanic language. So, somebody seems to be wrong.

I think it's good to distinguish "Old-Frisian" as we know it (from the medieval laws) from the OLB language; proto-Frisian or Fryan?

The latter could in fact be the "old West Germanic language" of the "experts".

In that case they are right IMO: Old-English and Old-Frisian are cousins that both descend from 'Fryan'.

Quote
These same experts will have it that Afrikaans developed from Dutch and that Afrikaans and Flemish developed independently from one another. Yet, Afrikaans is much closer to Flemish than to Dutch.

Similarly, Dutch, Flemish and Afrikaans are cousins that evolved out of old-Dutch (or old-'Westfrisian').

Quote
This tells me that these language experts are not always correct.

That is, of course, a fact.

### Posted 15 November 2011 - 06:44 PM
Alewyn, on 15 November 2011 - 02:13 PM, said:
As for Knul’s attempt to prove that Halbertsma wrote the OLB: We have discussed this at length several months ago. In fact I showed that not even Ottema considered Halbertsma as a possibility. Now Knul comes with this “big revelation” as if no one in the Netherlands has ever considered Halbertsma.

Ottema, in fact (just like you and me), considered nobody as a possible 'hoaxer'.

More significantly, Dr. Jensma and other Frisian experts, who are much better informed (and also more benullig) than Knul, don't consider the possibility that Halbertsma was involved in any way.

Quote
Over the last 140 years, and 17 months’ debate in this forum, nobody could prove that the OLB is a hoax.

That is correct.

Quote
All the hoax theories are based on conjecture and by ignoring or denying the written statements, letters and other 19th century facts surrounding the book. I am yet to see a single proven fact that will support their theory. I am still baffled by the Dutch academics that are not even prepared to consider the fact that the OLB is true.

I have good hope that this will change some day.
Did Jensma comment on your book yet?

### Posted 15 November 2011 - 06:53 PM
Abramelin, on 15 November 2011 - 02:29 PM, said:
No Alewyn, it's different: it's about MODERN English words showing up in the OLB, that's English from about 15-1600 AD and onwards.

There were countless varieties in language and dialects.
The writing language has become more like the (most dominant) spoken language.
Fact is, that we don't know how 'modern' these words and expressions really are.

Quote
And something else: can you tell me why there is an obvious French/Latin loanword in the OLB, "prentar" ??

That "prentar" would be a French/Latin "loanword" is not obvious at all.

### Posted 15 November 2011 - 07:01 PM
Abramelin, on 15 November 2011 - 03:14 PM, said:
Everything that shows up in the OLB was known in the 19th century, and that's before the time the OLB was published. They used myths and legends from Frisians, Germans, Greeks, Romans and so on.

One example to refute this:

Apparently, nobody in the 19th century knew that (varieties of) WRALDA had been used in other Nordic cultures to refer to what we call God.

Wirth was the first (in the 1930s) to point this out.

Jensma has ignored this most relevant fact in his dissertation.

Also, there were many things 'known' in the 19th century that we now know to be nonsense. Howcome there's none of that in the OLB?

### Posted 15 November 2011 - 07:08 PM
Abramelin, on 15 November 2011 - 03:14 PM, said:
I have shown you and everyone that I can use my highschool knowlegde of Middle Dutch to translate a whole lot of the OLB text.

This proves nothing.
Icelandic children can read 1000 year old texts too.

Your belief that a language this old should be incomprehensible for us is based on a few hundred years of brainwashing (by the church). We were supposed to believe that our ancient ancestors were primitive barbarians.

### Posted 15 November 2011 - 07:13 PM
Abramelin, on 15 November 2011 - 07:06 PM, said:
"Prentar, nog op Texel een (stuurmans) leerling."

Why would sailors from Texel (with an ancient sailing tradition) borrow a word for that from the French?!

'Mieteren' is Westfrisian slang for 'to throw'. They didn't have to borrow this from Latin (mitere) either.

A shared common source is more likely.

### Alewyn Raubenheimer posted 16 November 2011 - 06:34 AM
Alewyn, on 15 November 2011 - 08:30 PM, said:
Here is a little trick question for you: Why does the OLB not say anything about the Persians? After all, the “Gertmanne” did spend some 1224 years in the region. Give it your best shot.

Let me answer my own question as to why the Oera Linda Book does not refer to Persia or the Persians. Instead the book refers to the “Ira”

Original Fries (Tresoar)
“Biwesta Pangab ther sind tha Ira ieftha wranga,…”
and
“Therthrvch havon wi tha Ira and tha othera kenna lerth. Tha Ira ne sind nene ira mar goda minska ther nena bildon to leta nach onbidda…”

English
“To the west of the Pangab are the Ira, or Wranga, …”

“In that way we came to know the Ira and other people. The Ira are not savages, but good people, who neither pray to nor tolerate images…”


Here is what Wikipedia has to say:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sasanian_Empire
“The Sassanid Empire (also spelled Sasanid Empire, Sassanian Empire, or Sasanian Empire), known to its inhabitants as Ērānshahr and Ērān in Middle Persian and resulting in the New Persian terms Iranshahr and Iran, was the last pre-Islamic Persian Empire, ruled by the Sasanian Dynasty from 224 to 651.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran
“The name "Iran" has been in use natively since the Sassanian era and came into use internationally in 1935, before which the country was known to the Western world as Persia”
“The term Ērān is found to refer to Iran in a 3rd century Sassanid inscription, and the Parthian inscription that accompanies it uses the Parthian term "aryān" in reference to Iranians.”

"However historically Iran has been referred to as Persia or similar (La Perse, Persien, Perzië, etc.) by the Western world, mainly due to the writings of Greek historians who called Iran Persēs (Πέρσης), meaning land of the Persians.”


So you see, before 1935, Iran (“the land of the Ira”) was known throughout the Western world as “Persia”. Yet, the OLB does not talk about the Persians, but rather about the Ira; the only West European source which called them by their ancient name. This also tells us that the name Ira or Iran goes back to before 300 BC and most likely to before 1500 BC when the Gertmanne arrived in the Punjab. This is much further back than the Sassanid Empire and even before the Greeks’ “Persia”.

To me this is further evidence that the OLB is authentic, but I suppose Abe will again say this was known in 19th century Holland.

### Posted 16 November 2011 - 08:19 AM
Abramelin, on 16 November 2011 - 12:59 AM, said:
Who cares about why?

Good example of your mentality: Just ignore things you don't understand.

Quote
And even Ottema translated it as "pilot's apprentice". APPRENTICE.

He did not:

[p.41]
de jongste scheepsjongens elk een derde deel

[p.43]
Zijn er ligtmatrozen verongelukt

(An 18th century term for this was "hooploper".)

Something to consider:
[OLB p.32]
ÉWA THÀT SÉIT SETMA THÉR BI ALLER MÀNNISKA ÉLIK AN HJARA MOD PRENTH SEND

### Posted 16 November 2011 - 08:38 AM
Abramelin, on 16 November 2011 - 01:05 AM, said:
Icelandic is a language of about a 1000 years old, and still taught in schools, because it is the language they use daily.

You think languages are as old as the oldest surviving written record of it.
They are of course much older than that and the result of a gradual evolutionary process.

Quote
I can read most of the OLB with only my knowledge of Middle Dutch

My point was that this does not prove anything.

Besides, you read the translation first.
You can't tell how much you would have understood without that.

### Alewyn Raubenheimer posted 16 November 2011 - 09:00 AM
Abramelin, on 16 November 2011 - 01:42 AM, said:
I'd like to add: where is the geological proof lands rose up or submerged around that time? All these volcanoes erupting? Catastrophic floods? Fires burning for years? And all that in Europe, or around the North Sea or the Atlantic? In 2194 BC?

You want proof? Try this:

China
The extract of a paper written by Chun Chang Huang and others from the Department of Geography, Shaanxi Normal University, Xi’an, Shaanxi in the People’s Republic of China in 2010, Extraordinary floods related to the climatic event at 4200 a BP on the Qishuihe River, middle reaches of the Yellow River, China,:

A paleo-hydrological study was carried out in the Qishuihe River valley in the middle reaches of the Yellow River.
The results show that successive floods occurred between 4300 and 4000 a BP in association with the abrupt climatic event of 4200 a BP. These overbank floods had the riverbank settlement inundated repeatedly.
The climatic event of 4200 a BP and the climatic decline at 3100 a BP were believed to be characterized by droughts previously. This work provides solid evidence that both severe droughts and extreme floods were parts of the climatic variability during abrupt climatic event and climatic decline in the semi-arid to sub-humid zones over the world
.

We also have ample archaeological evidence of ancient Chinese cultures that were destroyed in c. 2200 BC.

The Caribbean
Dr. Sander R. Scheffers of the School for Environmental Management and Science at Southern Cross University, NSW, Australia, and others, in an article, Tsunamis, hurricanes, the demise of coral reefs and shifts in pre-historic human populations in the Caribbean (Quaternary International, Volume 195, 15 February 2009, Pages 69-87):

Three extreme impacts with different magnitudes can be clearly distinguished. The youngest event occurred at approximately 500 BP, a second event at 3,100 BP, and the oldest at 4,200 BP (Scheffers, 2002; Scheffers et al. 2006).

Spain
Francisco Ruiz from the Department of Geodynamics and Palaeontology, University of Huelva, Avda, Spain, and others, noted in the research article, Evidence of high-energy events in the geological record: Mid-holocene evolution of the southwestern Doñana National Park (SW Spain) (Palaeogeography, Palaeoclimatology, Palaeoecology, Volume 229, Issue 3, 20 December 2005, Pages 212-229):

This was followed by a renewed phase of instability ( 4200–4100 cal. years BP) indicated by the presence of fine storm-lain deposits and thicker, probably tsunami-induced shelly deposits.

Sri Lanka
Ranasinghage, P. N et al in Signatures of Paleo-coastal Hazards in Back-barrier Environments of Eastern and Southeastern Sri Lanka (The Smithsonian/NASA Astrophysics Data System: American Geophysical Union, Fall Meeting 2010, abstract #NH21A-1397):

The most recent pre-2004 tsunami event likely occurred around 1000 yrs BP with the older events around 4200 yrs BP and 4900 yrs BP.

The ~ 4200 and ~ 4900 yrs BP events were recorded in multiple cores from Kirind and Vakarai as well as in cores from Hambantota by Jackson (2008).


Syria, Palestine, Iraq & Egypt
Prof Harvey Weiss, professor of Near Eastern Archaeology at Yale University in New Haven, Connecticut (The Sciences, May/June 1996 P. 33,34)

Whether at Tell Leilan or Tell Taya, Chagar Bazar or Tell al-Hawa, the results told the same story: between 2200 and 1900 BC people fled the Habur and Assyrian plains en masse

In Egypt, the Old Kingdom, during which the great pyramids were built, gave way to the turmoil of the First Intermediate Period; in Palestine, Early Bronze Age towns were abandoned; in Mesopotamia Akkad collapsed and nomadic people made strange movements across and down the Euphrates and Tigris valleys.

Only decades after the city’s massive walls were raised, its religious quarter renovated and its grain production reorganized, Tell Leilan was suddenly abandoned. In our excavations, the collapsed remains of Akkadian buildings are covered with erosion deposits that show no trace of human activity


In collaboration with soil scientist and archaeologist Marie-Agnés Courty of the National Centre for Scientific Research in Paris, it was noted that the remains of the city (Tell Leilan) was covered with a thin layer of volcanic ash followed by some 200mm of fine sand. She found very little evidence of earthworm activity, which pointed to a prolonged period of aridity.

The Netherlands
Otto S. Knottnerus from Zuidbroek in the Netherlands wrote an article, Sea Level Rise as a Threat to Cultural Heritage, in the Wadden Sea Newsletter 2000 (No. 2). Of note was the following statement in the article:

Near Delfzijl (Netherlands), Neolithic settlers built a megalithic-chambered tomb about 3350 BC. After 2200 BC, the site disappeared under several feet of clay and peat

North Africa
(Mentioned earlier)
The Potsdam-Institut fuer Klimafolgenforschung (Potsdam Institute for Climate Impact Research) in Germany, headed by Prof. Dr. Martin Claussen, analyzed climate feedbacks from the last several thousand years as reported in ScienceDaily

Before that time, the Sahara was covered by annual grasses and low shrubs, as evidenced by fossilized pollen.
The transition to today's arid climate was not gradual, but occurred in two specific episodes. The first, which was less severe, occurred between 6,700 and 5,500 years ago. The second, which was brutal, lasted from 4,000 to 3,600 years ago. Summer temperatures increased sharply, and precipitation decreased, according to carbon-14 dating. This event devastated ancient civilizations and their socio-economic systems.
The change from the mid-Holocene climate to that of today was initiated by changes in the Earth's orbit and the tilt of Earth's axis.


In pre-historic times, Lake Yoa in North Eastern Chad was part of the greater Lake Megachad and then, about 4000 years ago, its waters suddenly turned salty (Scientific American, May 9, 2008: From Bountiful to Barren: Rainfall Decrease Left the Sahara Out to Dry - How a once-wet landscape became one of the world's great deserts. By Adam Hadhazy ).

This happened around the same time when the salt content of the ground increased at Tell Leilan in Syria, more than 2500 kilometres away. Scientists speculate that the cessation of fresh water recharge to the lake from rain or rivers and subsequent evaporation would have dramatically increased the salt content over the ensuing millennia. Archaeologists, however, noted that the salinity suddenly increased 4000 years ago. This was not a gradual process. Many of the lakes in North Africa today are salt-water lakes.

Do you still believe that the authors of the OLB dreamed up the catastrophe of 2193/12194 BC?

### Posted 16 November 2011 - 09:05 AM
Himmler apparently kept believing in OLB's authenticity till his death.
In the German speaking countries OLB is known as "Himmler's Bibel" (and this could very well be the reason why it is not popular there either...)

Quote
How did he know Wralda wasn't known to represent God in the 19th century? Because HE couldn't find an older source?

Obviously, your omniscient hoaxer was the only one who knew.
There has been an extensive discussion about OLB in the 19th century and nobody ever brought this most relevant fact up. That's how Wirth knew.

Quote
I'd like to tell you it was no one else but Puzzler who showed you it was known.

That's not correct. The very first time it was mentioned in this forum was in my post of 10 November 2010:

Otharus, on 10 November 2010 - 04:00 PM, said:
There has been talk about how much of what is in OLB was already known to the 19th century elite.
...
Jensma (p. 92-93 of "De Gemaskerde God"):

"WR.ALDA is the most explicit character in the whole OLB. His name, that is used 96 times, is a great find in itself. 'Wralda is Oldfrisian for 'world', but the point in the word makes it possible to read the name as 'Oer.alda' - the 'over-old one', and possibly also as 'Oeral.da' - 'where-all there' (omnipresent)." (improvised translation by me)

(original text:) "WR.ALDA is het meest uitgewerkte personage uit het hele Oera Linda-boek. Zijn naam, die maar liefst 96 keer wordt genoemd, is op zichzelf al een vondst van formaat. 'Wralda is Oudfries voor 'wereld', maar de punt in het woord (in het OLBees staat WR.ALDA) maakt dat de naam ook kan worden gelezen als 'Oer.alda' - de 'oeroude', en mogelijk ook nog eens als 'Oeral.da' - 'Overal aanwezig'."

What Jensma did not know - or maybe he deliberately ignored it - is that varieties of the word Wralda exist in old Nordic archaeology, mythology, poetry in a similar context; and it does not only mean world...

1. Frey or Freyr, the twin-brother of Freya (and associated with fertility) is refered to as "Veraldar God".
2. In old-Laplandic the term "Weralden Olma" refers to what we would call God or Allah.
3. The creation myth of the poetic Edda starts with "Ar Var Alda"; first was old-one (or big wave, see [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evE6aLg-_Q8"]video[/url]).
(4. I even dare suggest an etymological relationship between 'Alda' and 'Allah', but I don't even need this here to make my point.)

Prof. Dr. H. Wirth mentioned 1. and 2. in a newspaper article in 1925 (Leeuwarder Courant 31 october) and added:

"... the Ingvaeonic name for God, Wralda, that was not known to science in the time that the manuscript supposedly would have been created, and partly still isn't!" (improvised translation by me)

(original:) "... de Ingvaeonische naam voor God, Wralda, die in den tijd waarin het handschrift vervalscht zou moeten zijn, aan de wetenschap onbekend was en ten deele nog is!"

So if it takes almost 50 years for Dutch scholars to notice that Wralda does not only mean World, but in other old cultures was also used to refer to the oldest or most important deity or spirit, it is not likely that a few conspirors knew this and used it for their hoax. I find it reveiling that even present day Frisian expert Jensma did not seem to know this when he wrote his publications (or he ignored it, which would be even more suspect).

### Posted 16 November 2011 - 11:01 AM
cormac mac airt, on 16 November 2011 - 10:25 AM, said:
Better question is how do you explain the fact that the Israelites, even as a tribe, are attested c.1208 BC while the earliest for anything like Frisians in the area, via language (Proto-Germanic), only dates to c.750 BC at the earliest?

Simple.
Because the number of accepted sources of 'Proto-Germanic' is more limited.

Besides, OLB is a 13th century copy of a collection of texts that was first compiled in the 6th century BC (with parts added later up until ca. 50 BC).

The first compilers of the book apparently had access to older sources (in their language), but we won't know what their language had been in the times described by their sources (like 2200 BC). Only that in 600 BC they had written sources about those times. How much of their sources at that time was fiction and how much was fact we won't know exactly, but if parts of it agree with other ancient sources and with archaeological and/or geological finds, that is enough reason to take it seriously.

### Posted 16 November 2011 - 11:13 AM
cormac mac airt, on 16 November 2011 - 10:38 AM, said:
So again, where's your evidence supporting the specific date of 2193/2194 BC?

This is also something I have a problem with accepting, specially in the sub-title of Alewyn's book: "The course of Eurasia after the night of Wednesday 21 October 2193 BC".

This level of specificity causes some resistance in me.

I'd say ca. 2200 BC or even ca. 2000 BC.

To come to an agreement (for now) that OLB might possibly be authentic (i.e. not a hoax) would already be a major step forward, as the path for scholars to start taking it seriously would finally be opened.

### Posted 16 November 2011 - 01:01 PM
Knul, on 16 November 2011 - 12:23 PM, said:
It has been widely accepted, that the OLB is a hoax. That is why scholars don't want to deal with the OLB. You refuse to read sources like Letterkundige Naoogst to convince yourself.

Did you know that it was once "widely accepted" that our economy would always keep growing and what happened to wise people who dared to challenge this belief?

You surely remember the once "widely accepted" ideas that the earth is flat and that the sun rotates around it.

I've seen enough of your 'evidence' to not feel like wasting my time on reading a book by the incredibly boring Halbertsma (who had no sense of humor or imagination).

Why don't you quote or summarize this evidence so the whole forum can read it?

If it's any good, I or Abe will translate it for you.

### Posted 16 November 2011 - 02:26 PM
Abramelin, on 16 November 2011 - 02:12 PM, said:
Pictet, Adolphe "Iren und Arier" Beiträge zur vergleichenden Sprachforschung auf dem Gebiete der arischen, celtischen und slawischen Sprachen 1858.

Nice find.

Quote
You might also be interested in the 19th-century theories about there being 'three races': white, black, yellow (Frya, Lyda, Finda).

It does not surprise me at all that much of what we read in an ancient manuscript was and is still living in our collective consciousness.

### Alewyn Raubenheimer posted 16 November 2011 - 02:40 PM
Otharus, on 16 November 2011 - 01:50 PM, said:
Alewyn, didn't you send Jensma a copy of your book?
Did he ever comment on it?


Yes, more than a year ago.
At first I thought it would not be right to share his private e-mail dated 18 August 2010 to me. On reflection, however, I don’t think he would object. Here it is:

Dear Mister Raubenheimer,

Indeed, some three or four weeks ago, I received a copy of your book Survivors of the Great Tsunami. I apologize for not having written you before, but I want you to know that I really appreciated you donating me your book. Thank you very much for that.

In the meantime I have been reading your book also. I tried to do this as unprejudiced as possible, but, as you will know, I have been studying the Oera Linda Book for a couple of years myself and have written a study on it (2004) and also published a new edition (2006). In my view the OLB is a intelligently written, erudite, very subtle and multi-layered hoax originating from the 19th century. The plot of the book is that it wants to puzzle the reader, but only temporarily, in order to convince him that you should not take books like these all too literally. The book really is a literary master-work in its kind, as well as a 19th century comment on debates on religious fundamentalism.

The question now was whether your book would challenge me and convince me to admit my wrong. I am sorry to say that it did challenge me indeed, but it did not succeed in changing my views. I think your book stands in a long tradition of readers (and writers) who are taking the text of the book literally, or better: which take it for a factual description of some prehistoric reality (Herman Wirth's, Die Ura Linda Chronik from the 1930s has proven to be influential). In my view it obviously is not. You can set up a whole string of arguments to show that. For instance the letters used in the book are nothing but Roman capitals, the language used is a Frisian form of 19th century Dutch, full of 19th century words and references to nineteenth century persons and events; if you give the text a closer look you will see that the chronology has been inferred in the text at a later stage of the making process, the text originally being a non-historical allegory in which Frya and the Magi were the main characters. And so on, and so on.

You could have read all this and more in my book (De Gemaskerde god) as well as from the large body of literature on the subject which, ever since the book came about in the 1860s, has shown that the text simply cannot be true in the sense that it would be a factual description of a prehistoric society.

It your attempt to to prove that the OLB is a 'Rosetta Stone of European History', you are using methods which are mostly scientifical (instead of scholarly) by nature and so you take your 'prove' of the authenticity of the book from geology, historical geography, astrophysics and so on. I really regret that you did not give the text itself a closer look: why is this text written as it is written (even if it were to be an age-old text)?

I realize that it must have been an enormous effort for you to research this subject, to write the book and to have it published, and I would have liked to admit that my findings on the book are wrong. But regrettably for you I can't.

I wish all the best and thanks once again,

Goffe Jensma


### Posted 18 November 2011, 07:57 AM
Comments on Goffe Jensma's email to Alewyn Raubenheimer, dated 18-8-2010.

"I think your book stands in a long tradition of readers (and writers) who are taking the text of the book literally, or better: which take it for a factual description of some prehistoric reality (Herman Wirth's, Die Ura Linda Chronik from the 1930s has proven to be influential). In my view it obviously is not. You can set up a whole string of arguments to show that. For instance the letters used in the book are nothing but Roman capitals, the language used is a Frisian form of 19th century Dutch, full of 19th century words and references to nineteenth century persons and events; if you give the text a closer look you will see that the chronology has been inferred in the text at a later stage of the making process, the text originally being a non-historical allegory in which Frya and the Magi were the main characters. And so on, and so on."

So Jensma's main arguments to show that OLB has to be a hoax are:

1. The letters are "nothing but Roman capitals"

Apparently they are different from his expectation. How does this prove that OLB is fake? In fact they're not identical, but similar to Roman capitals, as well as to Greek capitals.

2. The language is "a Frisian form of 19th century Dutch"

Again, because the language is different from the expectation, based on what is known already, does not prove it's fake. As we have seen earlier in this thread there are no hard evidence examples of this. I would rather conclude that modern Dutch in some ways is more similar to Oldfrisian than modern "Frisian" is. The same can be said of modern English, German and the Scandinavian languages. Through the ages, the written languages have adapted more to the spoken language. Besides, parts of OLB are not at all that easy to translate.

3. It uses "19th century words and references to 19th century persons and events"

In this forum we have seen that there are no convincing examples of this. I have not read any in his book either. Someone who wants to prove a conspiracy theory can find clues everywhere to confirm his belief, like 'hidden messages' in the newspaper or on television. Knul does the same; he only sees things that confirm his theory and ignores everything else. If one wants to see references to the French Revolution or any other conflict, they could also be found. The explanation for this is that similar patterns are repeated over and over again in history.

4. "The chronology has been inferred in the text at a later stage of the making process"
5. The text originally was a "non-historical allegory in which Frya and the Magi were the main characters"

Points 4 and 5 are conclusions or suppositions by Jensma himself, that he uses as proof. They can only be true if one first concludes that it is a hoax, but they can not be used to prove that it is a hoax.

### Posted 18 November 2011, 09:47 AM
Thanks for reminding me of this, Abe.
It disproved Halbertsma as a possible suspect.
Knul, what is your answer to this?

Otharus, on 28 February 2011 - 05:48 PM, said:
The following is copied from his publication "LETTERKUNDIGE NAOOGST" (1840), a study of Frisian poetry and literature and the meaning of words (page 138). Translation into English, followed by the original.

Improvised translation
"Tzjerl. The Latin gerulus, a carrier, is like the Germanic carle, Anglosaxon céorle, English churl [tshurl] and this Tjzerl or tzjirl; meaning a man, that by his birth is doomed to carry and tote, or to general land-labour. We already saw that the word with the Anglosaxons and the Frisians had the meaning of a service-man, with or without the prefix hûs. But these huis-kerels, that is, house-servants, became besides fieldworkers, also servants around the house for the landlords and later also for helpers in battle. King Aelfric therefore used the term æcer-céorl, akkerkerel or farmer, as opposed to hûs-cèorl. That's why in medieval Latin hus-carla not only means the man, who is part of the court of a prince or lord, but also the warrior from the court, or one of the bodyguards. Du Cange gave an example where the king gave certain orders to all soldiers of his court, that in Danish are called hûs-carlen. Gabbema (...) shows the tzirlen as meaning fight-mates, and Gysbert uses it in a similar sense like comrade, fellow, loyal mate. The Hollanders say in that same sense "kereltje" to the children, and the Friezen Tzirl to a grown up man. Tzirl is more proud and more masculine than Kereltje. Friesland was the most aristocratic nation of the world, yet so much tempered by democracy, that the farmer calls his landlord Tzerl with the deepest respect. This cultural spirit, still owned by the English, was the result of these peoples being ruled by the ancient duces, mentioned by Tacitus."

Dutch
"Tzjerl. Het Latijnsche gerulus, een drager, staat over tegen het Germaansche carle, Angels, céorle, Eng. churl [tshurl] en dit Tjzerl of tzjirl; duidende dus eigenlijk een man aan, die door zijne geboorte tot dragen en sjouwen, of tot gemeenen veldarbeid, gedoemd is. Wij hebben reeds gezien, dat het woord bij de Angelsaxen en Friezen de beteekenis van zulk eenen dienstman bezat, het zij dan met of zonder vooraanzetting van hûs. Maar die huis-kerels, dat is, huis-knechten, wierden behalve tot den veldarbeid, bij de groote heeren vervolgens ook tot huisdiensten, en eindelijk tot helpers in den strijd gebruikt. Koning Aelfric sprak daarom al van eenen æcer-céorl, akkerkerel of boer, in tegenstelling met een hûs-cèorl. Van daar beteekent in het middeneeuwsch Latijn hus-carla niet alleen den man, die tot den hofstoet van een prins of groot heer behoort, maar ook den krijgsman uit de hofhouding, die tot de lijfwacht behoorde. Du Cange haalt daartoe onder anderen eene plaats aan, waarin de koning aan al de soldaten van zijne huishouding, welke men in het Deensch hûs-carlen noemt, zeker bevel geeft. Bij Gabbema (...) komen de tzirlen dan ook voor als strijdgenooten, en in dergelijken zin van kameraad, beste, trouwe maat, neemt het ook Gysbert. De Hollanders zeggen in dien zelfden zin kereltje tegen de kinders, waarin de Friezen Tzirl tot een volwassen man. Tzirl is deftiger en mannelijker dan Kereltje. Friesland was het aristocratischste land der wereld, doch zoo sterk getemperd door de democratie, dat de boer behoudens de diepste achting zijnen landheer Tzerl noemt. Deze volksgeest, die nog aan de Engelschen eigen is, was het uitvloeisel van het staan dezer volkstammen onder de aloude duces, van welke Tacitus spreekt.

Some conclusions

1) Halbertsma starts with comparing this Frisian word "Tzjerl" with its counterparts in Latin, Germanic, Anglosaxon and English. He emphatically leaves out the Dutch "Kerel". Later he mentions that the Hollanders call their children "kereltje", but he immediately adds that the Frisian word is so much more masculine and proud.
In the OLB, the version of this word is KERDEL and it is used only twice:

(Fryan) KERDEL = (Dutch) kerel = (German) Kerl = (Swedish) kille = (Frisian) = tzjerl
(the modern English churl has a negative meaning, but apparently in the 19th century it was still a positive term)

Related names: Karel, Karl, Carl, Charles, Carolus, Carlos

transliteration Ottema, 1876:
[p.041] Jahwêder jong kerdel âch en brud to sêka ånd is er fif ånd twintich sa âcht-er en wif to håva.
[p.119] Thâ hja landa hipte-n jong kerdel wal vp. In sina handa hêdi-n skild, thêrvp was bråd åend salt lêid.

Now imagine this Halbertsma, being a proud nationalsist Frisian, who liked to believe that his Frisian language was older than the language of the Hollanders that he must have hated or at least despised so much. And he has a little obsession with this word tzjerl (in his beloved English: churl).
Why would he, writing his political and/or cultural-historical masterpiece use a version of this word that is much closer to the Hollandic KEREL that to his Frisian TZJERL? And he could easily have used this word many times, preferrably in combination with "HûS-", but no, it's only used twice and only in the context of a young man, and hardly as the hard working or brave, proud loyal warrior that he described in his 1840 essay.

2) He proudly calls Friesland the most aristocratic nation of the world and he does not seem very pleased with the democratic principle. The OLB does not reflect these sentiments at all.

3) He suggests that the respect that the Frisians and English still have for their landlords stems from the time of the DUCES from the Roman times. How do you think the Folkmothers and the free fryans from the OLB would have felt about those 'duces'? That was a rhetorical question indeed.

So, in this short sample, there's already three reasons to dismiss the theory that Halbertsma would have been involved in the creation of the OLB.

Even über-hoaxtheorist Jensma did not consider Halbertsma a serious candidate for the job.

### Posted 18 November 2011, 10:47 AM
Knul, on 18 November 2011 - 10:38 AM, said:
Jensma considered Haverschmidt, who denied this role in a letter to L.F. over de Linden.

Cornelis Over de Linden also denied having been involved in fabricating the manuscript.

According to your theory, he was anyway.

### Posted 18 November 2011, 11:05 AM
Knul, on 18 November 2011 - 10:32 AM, said:
Its about the etymology of huskerl, which was a special function in Danmark. King Gottrik of Haithabu was killed by one of his huskerls (probably his son). Maybe the inland counterpart of jarl (se-kening). The combination of hus + kerl gives an other meaning to the word kerl. It does not proof anything about the authorship of Halbertsma. Your remarks 2 and 3 are suggestive and not based on facts.

The problem with psychological arguments, is that they are never hard facts.

In Halbertsma's work elements can be found that are in agreement with the 'psychology' (or 'spirit') of the OLB, but other elements are in strong conflict with it.

You focus on the overlapping elements, but ignore the conflicting ones. That is because you want to believe that you are a 100% right, rather than consider a sliding scale of probablity that you are.

Halbertsma had a few favorite topics, or even obsessions (example: Hindelopen), of which we find no trace in the OLB.

### Posted 18 November 2011, 11:12 AM
Knul, on 18 November 2011 - 10:59 AM, said:
So far, not Jensma or me are the ones, who refuse to accept evidence, but you are.

I asked you many times: WHAT EVIDENCE?!
The only thing you came up with was that words like BOI, MERY, JES and LOK would be too modern.
This evidence is too weak. We don't know how old these words are.

### Posted 18 November 2011, 02:00 PM
Knul, on 18 November 2011 - 11:20 AM, said:
I don't talk about psychological arguments, but of real arguments (linguistic, theological, philosophical, geographical, etc.).

Your 'proof' that Halbertsma did it is (summarised) that he was interested in linguistics and Frisian history and culture.
That's a psychological argument.
You have no hard facts to prove your theory.

Quote
Hindeloopen got its importance during the Hanseatic times. So it didn't fit in the story.

What about Medemblik (MÉDÉA.S.BLIK), Vroonen (FORÁNA), Alkmaar (ALKMÁRUM) and Egmond (EGMVDA), etcetera?

If Halbertsma wrote it as a history based fiction he would have added his little darling.

Even the fantastic Frisian historiography contains crazy etymologies about Hindeloopen (lopende hindes; walking hinds).

### Posted 18 November 2011, 02:49 PM
Knul, on 18 November 2011 - 11:09 AM, said:
As far as I know Cornelis over the Linden never denied that he was involved in fabricating the manuscript

Otharus, on 18 November 2011 - 11:16 AM, said:
What???!!!

Knul, on 18 November 2011 - 12:12 PM, said:
Did he ?

I know it was late when you posted Cornelis' testament, but you could at least have read it.
How can he have been involved in fabricating the manuscript if his great-grandfather already had it?
The text would have been interesting for you too, to check your theory. Why didn't you?

Knul, on 07 November 2011 - 02:24 AM, said:
Here is the testament of Cornelis over de Linden. The text is interesting for Otharus to check his theory. [...]
"Aan mijn kleinzoon Cornelis en verdere nakomelingen.
Alle menschen, die eenig belang in mijn handschrift stellen, vragen mij, hoe ik er aan gekomen ben. [...] Mijn overgrootvader [Jan over de Linden] hadt twee zonen, waarvan mijn [groot-]vader [Andries over de Linden] de oudste was.
Hij werd dus bezitter van het handschrift."


Fragment translated:
"To my grandson Cornelis and further descendants.
All people, who are interested in the manuscript, ask me, how it came into my possession. [...]
My great-grandfather [Jan Over de Linden] had two sons, of whom my grandfather [Andries Over de Linden] was the eldest.
Therefore he inherited the manuscript."

### Posted 18 November 2011, 03:21 PM
Knul, on 18 November 2011 - 12:14 PM, said:
You did not read my website nor my posts. You just remember the modern English words.

I commented extensively on both your website and your posts.
Let me remind you of something.
From your website:

"I regard the appearance of Oldenglish month-names in the OLB as the most important clue to the authorship of Joost Halbertsma, hardcore anglofile and researcher of the relationship between Oldfrisian and Oldenglish.
[...] october / winmonath / winnemonath, frivnskipmonath (winemonth)"


(Original text: "Ik beschouw het voorkomen van Oudengelse maandnamen in het Oera Linda Boek als de belangrijkste aanwijzing voor het auteurschap van Joost Halbertsma, anglofiel in hart en nieren en onderzoeker van de relatie tussen het Oudfries en het Oudengels.")

Otharus, on 02 September 2011 - 08:55 AM, said:
They are not derived from old-english.
To be more clear, here's the mistakes in your table:

month......oldenglish.......OLB
-----------------------------------
january....wulfamonath......wolfamonath
february...solmonath........sellamonath
march......hrethmonath......herdemonath
may........thrimilce........minnemonath
august.....weodmonath.......arnemonath?
october....winmonath........winnemonath, frivnskipmonath

How are MINNE MONATH and ARNE MONATH derived from old-english?


OLB [093/19]
FIFTIAN MONATHA NÉI THÉRE LERSTE ACHT. WÉR ET FRJUNSKIP JEFTHA WINNE MÔNATH

OLB [116/05]
INNER WINNA JEFTHA MINNA MÔNATH GVNG AIDER THURVAR WITHER HÉM.FÁRA.

Conclusion:

FRJUNSKIP- = WINNE- = MINNA-MÔNATH (= may)

If this is your "most important clue", you should investigate it more deeply.

### Posted 18 November 2011, 03:39 PM
Knul, on 18 November 2011 - 12:38 PM, said:
As far as I know only three serious candidates have been mentioned: Verwijs, Haverschmidt and Halbertsma, alone or in combination Verwijs-Haverschmidt and Verwijs-Halbertsma.

Vinckers concluded that Cornelis Over de Linden had done it all by himself ("Wie heeft...", 1877).

Over de Linden was also one of Jensma's suspects. (Am I the only one here who read his book?)

IMO, the other mentioned suspects are not much more "serious" than Over de Linden.

### Posted 18 November 2011, 03:51 PM
Knul, on 18 November 2011 - 03:42 PM, said:
You commented on the months, but not on the fact, that old english month names occur in the OLB, which is a specific indication for Halbertsma.

I did, and I also explained why they are more old-Dutch than old-English.

If what you say is correct, than why did Halbertsma change "thrimilce" into "minnemonath", and "weodmonath" into "arnemonath"?

Why are you ignoring the fact that in OLB winnemonath = minnemonath = frjundskipsmonath?

### Posted 18 November 2011, 05:52 PM
Abramelin, on 18 November 2011 - 01:18 PM, said:
Something else: we have talked about how a -K- in Frisian becomes a -TSY- like the -CH- in church; in Dutch we say kerk, the Germans say Kirche (and the German -ch- is a gutteral consonant). If THIS is what was going on, the Fryans would have written the name down starting with a -T- .

There's also examples of K changing into (or being pronounced as) SH:

Kopen (to buy) = to shop

In Swedish: köpa, pronounced as shöpa!

Are you sure that in old-Greek, K in the beginning of a word was (always) pronounced as our K?

### Posted 18 November 2011, 06:51 PM
Knul, on 18 November 2011 - 06:10 PM, said:
Kopen etymologically has nothing to do with shop.
"shop (n.) c.1300, perhaps from [...]"
Just check before you write nonsens.


Dutch - kopen
German - kaufen
Icelandic - kaupa
Danish - købe
Swedish - köpa (pronounced SHöpa)
Norwegian - kjøpe (pronounced SHöbe)
English - to shop

### Posted 18 November 2011, 07:44 PM
Otharus, on 18 November 2011 - 05:52 PM, said:
There's also examples of K changing into (or being pronounced as) SH

Similarly, the Chinese equivalent of the Oldfrisian OD, QI, is also known as CHI or XI.

### Posted 18 November 2011, 09:44 PM
Abramelin, on 18 November 2011 - 09:03 PM, said:
Btw: did any of you already come up with an etymology for the OLB word "PRENTAR" which was being translated as "pilot's apprentice" by Ottema (and he was right)?

I corrected you already:
Ottema translated "scheepsjongens" and "ligtmatrozen".
Sandbach: "youngest boys" and "topsailman"
And I suggested the answer:

[032/03]
ÉWA THÀT SÉIT SETMA THÉR BI ALLER MÀNNISKA ÉLIK AN HJARA MOD PRENTH SEND
[Ottema/Sandbach p.47]
Ewa beteekent inzettingen, die bij alle menschen gelijkelijk in hun gemoed geprent zijn
"Eva" means that sentiment which is implanted in the breast of every man

Free translation (interpretation):
"ÉWA are ethics that are imprinted by nature equally in all people"

Or:
"... ethics that all people equally know in their heart"

==>>

"Prentar" prenten zich kennis en vaardigheden in/ krijgen lessen ingeprent
("Prentar" imprint knowledge and skills/ get lessons imprinted)

### Posted 18 November 2011, 10:09 PM
Abramelin, on 18 November 2011 - 09:51 PM, said:
This is what Ottema says about those "prentar":

"Prentar, nog op Texel een (stuurmans) leerling."
Prentar, still used in Texel to designate a pilot's apprentice


You didn't 'correct' me at all.


Yes, I know he said that in a footnote, but he didn't translate it as "apprentice", as you said.
But it would of course be a good English translation.
I'm just not sure if the French "prendre" is older than a Frisian PRENTHA or PRENTA.
You have not convinced me.

### Posted 18 November 2011, 10:22 PM
Abramelin, on 18 November 2011 - 08:08 PM, said:
The original word is Greek, and only spelled starting with a Kappa: Kekrops.

"Cecrops (Greek: Κέκροψ, Kékrops; gen.: Κέκροπος) was a mythical king of Athens who is said to have reigned for fifty-six years. The name is not of Greek origin according to Strabo."


http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Strabo/7G*.html#ref389

Strabo (ca. 64 BC – 19 AD):
Now Hecataeus of Miletus says of the Peloponnesus that before the time of the Greeks it was inhabited by barbarians. Yet one might say that in the ancient times the whole of Greece was a settlement of barbarians, if one reasons from the traditions themselves: Pelops brought over peoples from Phrygia to the Peloponnesus that received its name from him; and Danaüs from Egypt; whereas the Dryopes, the Caucones, the Pelasgi, the Leleges, and other such peoples, apportioned among themselves the parts that are inside the isthmus — and also the parts outside, for Attica was once held by the Thracians who came with Eumolpus, Daulis in Phocis by Tereus, Cadmeia by the Phoenicians who came with Cadmus, and Boeotia itself by the Aones and Temmices and Hyantes. According to Pindar, there was a time when the Boeotian tribe was called "Syes." Moreover, the barbarian origin of some is indicated by their names — Cecrops, Codrus, Aïclus, Cothus, Drymas, and Crinacus. And even to the present day the Thracians, Illyrians, and Epeirotes live on the flanks of the Greeks (though this was still more the case formerly than now); indeed most of the country that at the present time is indisputably Greece is held by the barbarians — Macedonia and certain parts of Thessaly by the Thracians, and the parts above Acarnania and Aetolia by the Thesproti, the Cassopaei, the Amphilochi, the Molossi, and the Athamanes — Epeirotic tribes.

So the name was of "Barbarian" origin...
(Men with beards who talk "barbarbar"...?)

I know that in modern Greek the letter K is pronounced as K, but I'm not sure about old Greek.
It may have been just like our C, dependant of what vowel follows.
It's not insignificant that in Frisian, Swedish and Norwegian, the K is also not (always) hard.

SÉKROPS may very well have been the original name, later spelled by the Greeks as KEKROPS, even later spelled CECROPS in Latin, andsoforth.

I understand your point and I am intruiged, but not convinced.

### Posted 18 November 2011, 10:37 PM
Otharus, on 18 November 2011 - 10:22 PM, said:
... and the Athamanes — Epeirotic tribes.

Ath-manna; Ath-men... could it be more Frisian?

### Posted 19 November 2011, 02:39 PM
Abramelin, on 19 November 2011 - 01:49 PM, said:
apprentice (n.) c.1300, from O.Fr. aprentiz "someone learning" (13c., Mod.Fr. apprenti, taking the older form as a plural), also as an adjective, "unskilled, inexperienced," from aprendre (Mod.Fr. apprendre) "to learn; to teach," contracted from L. apprehendere (see apprehend). Aphetic form prentice was long more usual in English.
http://www.etymonlin...owed_in_frame=0
If you have a better etynology, I hope you post it.
This is the closest to "prentar" I could find.


The problem with official etymology is, that they only use officially accepted sources and there's not many Oldfrisian sources left.

That's why my preferred method is to compare with other (NW-) European languages, which can be very (sometimes much more!) insightful.

I see a relation with our word "prent" (afdruk, print).
This word is related (but how?) to the Latin "premere" (to press).

A teacher leaves 'impressions' in his students (apprentices), or imprints them his knowledge, skills.

This is what I found (but I don't fully agree):

PRINT - prente (printe), (danish prent; english print).
Most probably this noun is derived from ofr. preinte (prainte, priente) and not from the in Middle-Dutch much more common verb prenten (printen) (according to ...) [size="4"]even though the latter is much older[/size].
Oldfrisian preinte is de fem. form of the past perfect of preindre, a verb that evolved out of Latin premere.
The Ofr. sound ei is represented in Dutch both by e as by i;
our present language only knows the form with e.


Simplified and translated from: http://gtb.inl.nl/iWDB/search?actie=article&wdb=WNT&id=M055905

### Posted 19 November 2011, 03:10 PM
Knul, on 19 November 2011 - 02:51 PM, said:
The reason for the strange spelling is that Oldfrisian does not use the letter C. [...]
But the juulscript does contain C and c.
This proofs, that the juulscript is
not based on Oldfrisian, which does not know the letter c, but likewise on Latin.

"Thit is landriucht [thera] Fresena and skeltanriucht."
http://www.languagea...rg/SKELTANA.HTM

Just like in the Oldfrisian laws, C in the OLB is (only) used in combination with H, as CH.

### Posted 19 November 2011, 08:15 PM
Abramelin, on 19 November 2011 - 02:59 PM, said:
The OLB "prentar" clearly has to do with being a 'pupil' or apprentice, and not with the printing of pictures on paper.

Who said it was about "printing of pictures on paper"?

Prent = print = (Dutch:) afdruk
to print = (af-) drukken
imprint = afdruk
press = drukpers
to press = drukken, persen
to impress = indruk wekken
impression = indruk
pressure = druk

Quote
But even if it has (as in 'imprinting a person's mind'), then still we come no further than Old French.

Who needs Old French?

In Dutch there has been a clear association with learning/ studying:
inprenten (doen doordringen)
in de uitdrukking "iemand iets inprenten" [diep in de geest doen indringen]
’t Is onnoodig inprenten direct van het fr. deelw. preint, empreint af te leiden.
Uit het Ndl. de. indprente “inprenten”

http://www.etymologi...woord/inprenten

Middelnederlandsch woordenboek:
inprenten, ynprenten; (vgl. indrukken) iem. iets op het hart of in het gemoed drukken. Vgl. prenten (van lat. premere)
http://gtb.inl.nl/iW...db=MNW&id=19357
http://gtb.inl.nl/iW...db=MNW&id=19084

Quote
"Prentar" coming from some form of "apprentice" (or "prentice") sounds more logical to me.

As I have shown, it's the other way around:

"Prentice" and "Prentar" are derived from "Prent", which must be a very old word and would originally have ment something like: (foot-/finger-) print, impression, imprint.

### Posted 19 November 2011 - 11:49 PM
Abramelin, on 19 November 2011 - 10:13 PM, said:
"prentar" is so obviously related to "apprentice"

Yes, that's what I said, but in a different way than you think.
Why would I waste my time further if you don't read my posts properly?
Case closed for me.

### Posted 20 November 2011 - 06:40 AM
The Puzzler, on 20 November 2011 - 03:23 AM, said:
To imprint something on your brain is fairly similar - you imprint it into your memory - in other you stamp it in your head, to learn it, to grasp it - basically - it's your memory - imprint it on your brain. I say it alot, maybe it's an old English thought.

You need to think where and how the word arrived into Latin to start with.

It's all well and good to say, oh it came from Latin - but where did Latin come from?

Exactly! Thanks, Puzzler.

Quote
My answer is Frisian/Fryan, as you know, so it's circular reasoning to say, it came from Latin or Old French, because if the OLB is correct, the Latin words should be based of Frisian/Fryan ones.

If the concept of print went into Latin, this can easily be relative to print or remember or learn - a learner of the imprint being an apprentice as such.


To be exact, I don't think all Latin words need to be Fryan based, and Fryan words can indeed have there base in other languages too, but I don't see why that has to be Latin just because we have more written records of it and our present dominant culture is an evolved version of the Roman Empire.

### Posted 20 November 2011 - 06:47 AM
Abramelin, on 20 November 2011 - 12:00 AM, said:
You want to the OLB Fryans to be the source of ancient European civilization, the source of the languages spoken in ancient Europe, the source of whatever in Europe.

Why do you think so?
I'm just skeptic about the hoax theories, and until now, my thought experiment that OLB can be authentic is not refuted, but ever more confirmed.

### Posted 20 November 2011 - 07:33 AM
Knul, on 20 November 2011 - 01:26 AM, said:
The verb PRENTHA does not exist in Oldfrisian.

It does not exist in Oldfrisian dictionaries nor (apparently) in the few sources we have.
But the Dutch verb "prenten" and the English verb "to print" must have there origin somewhere, and this may very well (as usual) be Oldfrisian.

### Posted 20 November 2011 - 09:52 AM
cormac mac airt, on 20 November 2011 - 09:29 AM, said:
How can it be considered authentic overall, when you’ve just said we can’t know how much is fact and how much is fiction?

If it's an authentic 13th century manuscript (possibly a copy of something older), we will obviously still not know if all information in it is factual.

German translation of creation myth

(This was also posted in the forum)

For our German speaking readers, here's a new translation of the FORMA SKÉDNISE (creation myth), compared to Wirth's version of 1933.

The new translation was made without having seen the one by Wirth.

"WR-ALDA" in the new version is feminine, because in German, the word for "world" (Welt) is.

Note that Wirth simply left out lines 27-28.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

OLB Creation Myth ~ original text; with line numbers (p.6)
German translation by Herman Wirth (1933; p.16)
New German translation by Ulrike (without having seen Wirth's)

12 THAT IS VSA FORMA SKÉDNISE.
Dies ist unsere älteste Geschichte
Das ist unsere früheste Geschichte:

13 WR.ALDA THAM ALLÉNA GOD ÀND ÉVG IS. MAKADE T.ANFANG.
Wralda, der allein gut und ewig ist, machte den Anfang,
WR-ALDA (Ur-Alte/Welt), die alleine gut und ewig ist, machte den Anfang.

14 DANA KÉM TID. TID WROCHTE ALLE THINGA. ÁK JRTHA.
dann kam die Zeit; die Zeit schuf alle Dinge, auch die Erde (Irtha).
Danach kam die Zeit. Die Zeit brachte alle Dinge hervor, auch die Erde.

15 JRTHA BÀRDE ALLE GÀRSA KRÚDON ÀND BÔMA.
Irtha gebar alle Gräser, Kräuter, Bäume,
Die Erde gebar alle Gräser, Kräuter und Bäume.

16 ALLET DJARA KWIK ÀND ALLE.T ÀRGE KWIK.
all das liebe und all das arge Getier.
Alle teuren Tiere und alle argen Tiere.

17 ALHWAT GOD ÀND DJAR IS. BROCHT HJU BY DÉGUM
Alles, was gut und lieblich ist, brachte sie am Tage
Alles, was gut und teuer ist, brachte sie bei Tag hervor

18 ÀND ALHWAT KWÁD ÀND ÀRG IS. BROCHT HJU THES NACHTIS FORTH.
und alles, was übel und arg ist, brachte sie zur Nachtzeit hervor.
und alles, was böse und arg ist, brachte sie bei Nacht hervor.

19 AFTER.ET TWILIFTE JOL.FÉRSTE BÀRDE HJU THRJA MANGÉRTA
Nach dem zwölften Julfest gebar sie drei Maide:
Nach dem zwölften JOL-Fest brachte sie drei Mädchen hervor.

20 LYDA
WÀRTH UT GLÍANDE
FINDA
WÀRTH UT HÉTA. ÀND
FRYA
WARTH UT WARME STOF.

Lyda ward aus glühendem,
Finda ward aus heißem und
Frya aus warmem Staube
Lyda wurde aus glühendem,
Finda wurde aus heißem, und
Frya wurde aus warmem Staub gemacht.


26 THÁ HJA BLÁT KÉMON SPISDE WR.ALDA HJAM MITH SINA ÁDAMA.
Da sie bloß kamen, speiste Wralda sie mit seinem Odem.
Als sie bloß hervorkamen, speiste WR-ALDA sie mit ihrem Atem,

27 TILTHJU THA MÀNNESKA AN HIM SKOLDE BVNDEN WÉSA.
- - - (left out by Wirth)
sodass die Menschen an sie gebunden sein würden.

28 RING AS HJA RIP WÉRON KRÉJON HJA FRÜCHDA ÀND NOCHTA ANDA DRÁMA.
- - - (left out by Wirth)
Sobald sie reif waren, kamen Freude/Früchte und Genüsse/Nüsse in ihre Träume.

29 WR.ALDAS OD TRÀD TO RA BINNA.
Od (Gottes Odem) trat zu ihnen ein
WR-ALDAs OD (?) trat in sie ein.

30 ÀND NW BÀRDON EK TWILIF SVNA ÀND TWILIF TOGETHERA.
und nun gebar jede zwölf Söhne und zwölf Töchter,
Und nun gebaren sie jede zwölf Söhne und zwölf Töchter,

31 EK JOL.TID TWÉN.
eine jegliche Julzeit zween.
zu jeder JOL-Zeit Zwillinge.

32 THÉROF SEND ALLE MÀNNESKA KÉMEN.
Davon sind alle Menschen gekommen.
Daraus sind alle Menschen hervorgekommen.

18 November 2011

FRYAS STANDSKRIFT

Notes
- W is not really a seperate letter, but actually VV (double V). V is used both as U (e.g. FLVX) and as our V (MINERVA), W is used both as our W (e.g. WÉPEN) and as double-U (e.g. WR-ALDA).
- The letters with accents like Û, Ü, Ô, Í are chosen for now to seperate them from the ones without, but I don't have a good reason to use these ones specifically. The O with a dot in the center is very rare and evolved in later Dutch into "oi" (v.b. "Oirschot").
- In modern Dutch, Û mostly changed into "ui", and Ü into "eu".
- C is only used in combination with H as CH. In Latin, the letter C was used for the K-sound. In Greek, the CH-sound was represented by the letter X (chi).
- Other languages that have a special letter for the "th" sound are: Greek, Icelandic, Gothic, Anglosaxon. It is sometimes (in the middle of a word) interchangeable with D (e.g. thrvchtham => thrvchdam).
- The letter for "Gz" is rare and almost only used in "SEGzA"; to say and "FRÜGzDA"; fruits.'
- The only double-vowel combinations that are used are AV (e.g. NAVT) and ÉI (e.g. DÉI, WÉI).

09 November 2011

NOCHTA

(This was also posted in the forum on November 6)

OL has four different uses of the word.

The following translations are listed: Ottema and Sandbach (1872/1876), Jensma (2006) and De Heer (2008)

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

I) Literally, with translations like: nut, corn, fruit, crop, grain

Dutch: noot (plur.: noten)
German: Nuss
Danish: nød
Swedish: nöt
Norwegian: nøtt
Icelandic: hneta
French: noix
Spanish: nuez
Portuguese: noz
Italian: noce
Latin: nux

Fragments in OLB and their translations:

[047/09]
ANDA BÁMA ÀND TRÉJON WAXTON FRÜGzDA ÁND NOCHTA THÉR NW VRLÉREN SEND
[O+S p.67]
Ottema, De Heer: "vruchten en ooft"; Jensma: "vruchten en genoten"
Sandbach: "fruits"

[136/04]
JRTHA HETH HJARA BLOD DRUNKEN. MITH THÀT BLOD FODE HJU FRÜCHDA ÀND NOCHTA
[O+S p.185]
Ottema: "vruchten en koorn"; Jensma: "vruchten en noten"; De Heer: "vruchten en planten (genoegen)"
Sandbach: "corn and fruits"

[167/11]
THÉR BLOJATH ÀND WAXATH THA SELVA FRUCHTA ÀND NOCHTA AS AN THA ÁST.SIDE
[O+S p.225]
Ottema: "vruchten en granen"; Jensma: "vruchten en genoten"; De Heer: "vruchten en noten"
Sandbach: "fruits and crops"

[167/29]
BY VS WERTHAT NOCHTA FONDEN LIK BERN HÁVEDA SA GRÁT
[O+S p.227]
Ottema, Jensma, De Heer: "noten"
Sandbach: "nuts"

[189/15]
JRTHA WARTH BIHWÍLA ÁK AL.FÉDSTRE HÉTEN. THRVCHDAM HJU ALLE FRÜCHD ÀND NOCHTA BÉRTH
[O+S p.229]
Ottema: "vruchten en granen"; Jensma: "vruchten en noten"; De Heer: "vruchten en genoegen"
Sandbach: "fruits and grains"

[189/19]
NE SKOLDE HJU NÉNE FRÜCHD NER NOCHT NAVT NE BÉRA BÍDAM WRALDA HJA NÉNE KREFTA NE JÉF
[O+S p.229]
Ottema: "geene vruchten en granen"; Jensma: "geen vruchten en noten"; De Heer: "geen vruchten noch genoegen"
Sandbach: "not any fruit or grain"

In all above cases NOCHT/NOCHTA can simply be translated as noot/noten (nut/nuts).

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

II) Metaphorically, with translations like: pleasure, delight, diversion, cheerfulness, happiness, satisfaction

Dutch (related words): genot, geneugte, genoegen, genieting, neiging, neut, neuk
German: Genuss, Vergnügen
Danish: fornøjelse
Swedish: njutning
Finnish: nautinto
Icelandic: ánægja

[006/29]
RING AS HJA RIP WÉRON KRÉJON HJA FRÜCHDA ÀND NOCHTA ANDA DRÁMA
[O+S p.13]
Ottema: "vermaak en genoegen"; Jensma: "vreugde en genoten"; De Heer: "vreugde en genoegen"
Sandbach: "pleasure and delight"

[008/27]
SACH HJU HJRA BÀRN EN FRYA.S VRMORDE SÁ SWOL HJRA BOSM FON NOCHT
[O+S p.15]
Ottema, Jensma, De Heer: "genoegen"
Sandbach: "pleasure"

[092/10]
HJU WILDE RÉDER ENNEN BOSTA HA MITH ALL JOI ÀND NOCHTA THÉR ER ANEBONDEN SEND
[O+S p.129]
Ottema: "vreugde en genoegens"; Jensma: "vreugde en plezier"; De Heer: "vreugde en genoegen"
Sandbach just left this out! (joy and pleasure)

[093/22]
NINMAN NÉDE DIGER THAN TO ÁKANE SINA NOCHT
[O+S p.131]
Ottema: "vermaak"; Jensma, De Heer: "plezier"
Sandbach: "diversion"

[093/28]
NOCHT RUNDE WÉI. THA WÁKENDOM NILDE NAVT NE KÉRA
[O+S p.131]
Ottema: "vermaak"; Jensma: "plezier"; De Heer: "genoegen"
Sandbach: "Cheerfulness"

[094/06]
THAHWILA THÉR ALREK IN NOCHT BÁJADE WAS VRRÉD LÁND
[O+S p.131]
Ottema, De Heer: "in vreugde baadde"; Jensma: "in Plezier baadde"
Sandbach: "was intoxicated with pleasure"

[137/32]
THA MÀNNISKA [...] SA FÉLO NOCHT TO JÁN. AS TO BI NÁKA IS
[O+S p.187]
Ottema, De Heer: "genoegen te geven"; Jensma: "plezier te geven"
Sandbach: "make happy"

[139/11]
IN SIN KÉNINGKRIK [...] HWÉR FRÜ IS ÀND NOCHTA SEND
[O+S p.189]
Ottema, De Heer: "vreugde en genietingen"; Jensma: "vreugde en genot"
Sandbach: "joy and happiness"

[139/20]
THÀT THÉRA THÉR HÍR VP IRTHA THÀT MÁSTE LÉDEN HÉDE. NÉIMELS THA MÁSTA NOCHTA HÀVA SKOLDE
[O+S p.189]
Ottema, De Heer: "vreugde"; Jensma: "plezieren"
Sandbach: "happiness"

[149/18]
HO FRISO ALLE TO BIDOBBE WISTE TO NOCHT FON BÉDE PARTJA
[O+S p.203]
Ottema, Jensma, De Heer: "tot genoegen"
Sandbach: "to the satisfaction"

[153/28]
THÉR FON HÉDON THA WIVA NOCHT. THA FÁMNA NOCHT. THA MANGÉRTNE NOCHT. ÀND THÉROF HÉDON AL HJARA MÉGUM NOCHT
[O+S p.207]
Ottema: "hadden genoegen"; Jensma, De Heer: "hadden plezier"
Sandbach: "were pleased"

[162/17]
THA HÉINDE AND FÉRHÉMANDE SENDA.BODON HÉDON NOCHT FON VR THÀT SKRIFT
[O+S p.219]
Ottema: "hadden genoegen van"; Jensma: "hadden plezier over"; De Heer: "hadden voldoening van"
Sandbach: "were pleased with"

In all above cases NOCHT/NOCHTA can simply be translated as genot/genietingen or geneugte(n).
The Dutch words "genot" and "geneugte" associate more with (physical) pleasure, while the words "plezier" and "vermaak" are more about (innocent) fun.
The difference is subtle, but it explains why the translators (in many cases) avoid a more litteral translation.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

III) Derived from metaphor (I don't know a term for this), translated as: enough

Dutch: genoeg (note: "nokken" = slang for to stop/ quit)
German: genug
Danish, Norwegian: nok
Icelandic: nóg

[057/16]
INKA SÉIDE THAT.I SIN NOCHT HÉDE FON AL.ET FINDA.S.FOLK
[O+S p.81]
Ottema, Jensma: "zijn bekomst had van"; De Heer: "genoeg had van"
Sandbach: "had enough of"

[063/18]
AS HJU THÉR HJRA NOCHT FON HÉDE WERPTE HJU HJRA SELVA ANDA ÀRMA THÉRA GOLUM
[O+S p.89]
Ottema, Jensma: "haar bekomst van had"; De Heer: "haar genoegen van had"
Sandbach: "had enough of"

This beautifully shows where the expression comes from.
I would prefer the translations by De Heer.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

IV) As a personal name (not to be translated)

[133/32]
KONE.RÉD ALSA HÉT MIN FORMA [...] ÀND THA JONGESTE NOCHT
[O+S p.183]
Ottema, Sandbach, De Heer: "Nocht"; Jensma: "Plezier"

Forum # 13 (okt. 29 - nov. 9, 2011)

Posted 29 October 2011 - 05:09 PM
Menno and Abramelin, togethter you have convinced me that AKEN in OLB most probably refers to a BURG in the present Den Haag area.

Knul, on 28 October 2011 - 08:03 PM, said:
The name Ockenburg seems te come from Ockenberg, not burg. s. http://www.landgoed-ockenburg.net/ It has not been a borough (burg), but a residence from the 15th-17th century.

The site says:
"Sommige bronnen spreken van een landgoed "Ockenberghe" dat in de 15e eeuw in de buurt van Wateringen zou hebben gelegen, maar aan het begin van de 80 jarige oorlog is ontruimd."
=>
"Some sources mention an estate "Ockenberghe" that would have existed in the 15th century near Wateringen, but was cleared when the 80 year war started."

IMO it's more likely that the original name refered to a BURG (citadel) than to a BERG (mountain, hill). Anyway a BURG would be built on a hill (BERG) if there was one.

The estates may very well have been named after a historical site that had disappeared (long) before they were built.

The counts of Holland didn't choose just any random site to settle and it's indeed a smal step from (H)AKEN to HAGE(N).

The Aacken (Aken) in Germany may have been named after this older (and more startegically placed) AKEN, like Bremen would have been named after Brêmes and Hamburg after Hames-Boucres.

### Posted 29 October 2011 - 05:23 PM
Knul, on 28 October 2011 - 08:18 PM, said:
I found youur list of toponyms and will include that in my excel-scheme. ... If you have some addenda right now, please post them here.

You can include the ones you agree with and don't need to mention my name, as I copied most from Ottema.
Yes, I'll see if I have any changes.

Quote
I hope your list of modern expressions will include English words in the OLB as yes, look, boy, merry merry, run away, together, etc.

I don't think I'll make that list (not soon that is), specially since I personally don't think there are words in OLB that are 'too modern' for the OLB to be authentic. It was more like a suggestion.

### Posted 29 October 2011 - 05:45 PM
Knul, on 29 October 2011 - 12:16 AM, said:
Anyway this Ockenburg is already much more close than the Aken, which you find everywhere for Aachen (D).

It's a significant find indeed and it changes our view of 'South-Vlieland'.

Quote
Similarly the Gertmannen, named after Carmania (Punjab) and to be identified as the Groningers instead of Germans.

Carmania was named after the Gertmen that were named after Gért (P's daughter).

Can you explain why you think the Gertmen became Groningers and not Germans?
It does not make sense to me.

Quote
Freedom was given by Charles the Great and taken by the Dutch count Floris V.

This is actually not an accepted fact, but part of the so-called Frisian 'fantastic' historiography (mythology).

### Here are some I canged my mind about:

Otharus, on 26 October 2010 - 06:54 PM, said:
AKEN - Aken (Aachen) a burg located at or near present The Hague
ALMANLAND - Ameland ?
BUDA - Budapest ?
FLYLAND - Vlieland not the present Wadden-Island
KATTABURCH - Kattenburcht, Kassel ?
MANNAGARA FORDA - nowaday Munster (Westfalia) ?
MANNAGARDAWRDA - Munster ?
NY FRYASBURCH - Freiburg (Brisgau) ?
NORTHLAND - Norway Noordland


### Posted 29 October 2011 - 10:16 PM
Abramelin, on 29 October 2011 - 09:52 PM, said:
But I am quite sure you didn't like this estate came into existance in the 17th century, heh.

Wrong guess.
It's obvious that this estate is younger, and the original AKENBURG does not have to have been exactly on that spot.
Names are usually recycled many times

### Posted 29 October 2011 - 11:59 PM
Abramelin, on 29 October 2011 - 11:01 PM, said:
But there never was an 'Aken Burg' thousands or a thousand of years ago to begin with, right?

We don't know yet.
It's possible.
There must have been something significant before the counts of (what would later be called) Holland decided to settle there.

### Posted 30 October 2011 - 11:10 AM
Knul, on 29 October 2011 - 11:59 PM, said:
Almanland p.44, 84, 104 refers to Almenum, which according to Ocko Scharlensis just before 1256 became a town (now part of Harlingen).

English Wiki says: "Almenum according to legend is the site of the first Christian church in Friesland built in 777 AD by Gustavus Forteman."

Ottema and Jensma both interpreted it as Ameland.

My opinion is that both Ameland and Almenum may be etymologically related to Almanland, but it is not sure that Almanland refers to 19th or 13th century Ameland or Almenum.

Fact is, that topynyms sometimes move and change through the ages.

### Posted 31 October 2011 - 06:16 PM
Knul, on 31 October 2011 - 04:57 PM, said:
As it is impossible to place excel on this side, I have placed the concept register on www.rodinbook.nl. see on top UM (Unexplained Mysteries). Please complete the scheme.

Thanks again for the effort, but as I asked you before, please leave me out of the table.

I'm surprised to see "Aken = Aachen" under my name, as a few posts back I congratulated you for helping me change my mind about that.

To me it does not make sense to place the obvious ones (that all agree about, like "ALPA") in all rows.

It's much better to only mention the various views if there is no agreement.

### Posted 01 November 2011 - 11:37 PM
Knul, on 01 November 2011 - 10:10 PM, said:
Misselja is a new challange !
... If the author says it is an island, he means that it is an island. It is pretty sure, that Marseille was not an island. Ergo: Misselja cannot be Marseille. However, there is another island in the Mediterranean Sea, which can be identified as Misselja. That is Mallorca or Majorca, which is the largest island of the Balears, lying opposite the coast (kad) of Spain. The history of this island is pretty similar to that of Marseille, founded by the Greeks, conquered by the Romans and then conquered by the Carthagenians (Phonicians). The island of Mallorca had the same function on this side of the Pillars of Hercules as Cadiz on the other side and could be indicated as a volksplanting (colony) of the Frisians as well. Mallorca was the nucleus of the trade in the Western part of the Mediterranean. One should not forget, that shipping in the old times was not crossing the seas, but faring along the coast. After entering the Mediterranean Sea Mallorca was the first stop after the Street of Gibraltar v.v. when leaving the Mediterranean Sea Mallorca was the last stop before entering the street of Gibraltar. I haven't yet located the name Misselja. Maybe the Roman name of Mallorca was Messala (it was a Roman custom to put the name of a conquered land after one's name). The name Messala, which comes close to Misselja, is frequently used in Roman names, also as Messalina. As this Mallorca would be a Frisian volksplanting (colony) like Cadiz, it makes sense, that the case Misselja is discussed by the Eremother of Texland.


Most interesting!

You may very well be right.

It makes sense to me.

Abramelin, on 01 November 2011 - 11:06 PM, said:
Mallorca or Majorca doesn't sound like Massilia/Misselia at all.

That does not mean that OLB's "MIS-SELLJA" can't refer to what is now Mallorca.

Noord-Holland doesn't sound like West-Flyland...

Names change and sometimes move.

### Posted 01 November 2011 - 11:55 PM
Abramelin, on 01 November 2011 - 11:41 PM, said:
Marseilles/Massalia still is not an island, and it never was.

That is why I agree with Knul that it can't be OLB's MIS-SELLJA.
But it's possible that Massalia (the later Marseilles) was named after the earlier (and more important) island Missellia (the later Mallorca).

### Posted 02 November 2011 - 12:06 AM
In this thread we have seen that Oldfrisian offers countless possible explanations for toponyms, mythological names and ancient tribes.

Some of these explanations totally make sense to all of us, others sound crazy or silly to some.

Is there any other language that offers so many possible etymologies?

### Posted 02 November 2011 - 10:17 AM
The Puzzler, on 02 November 2011 - 04:45 AM, said:
Middle English cappe < Old Northern French cape, variant of Old French chape < Latin caput (“head”). ... Your nose is nesos - a peninsula that juts out, like your nose

For the record:

Nose
Dutch = neus
German: Nase
Swedish: näsa
Danish: næse
Norwegian: nese

Latin "caput" (head)
Dutch: kop
German: Kopf

I don't have Scandinavian dictionaries here, but I'm quite sure that those lands (that were never part of the Roman empire) have similar (slang?) words for head.

### Posted 02 November 2011 - 05:39 PM
Abramelin, on 02 November 2011 - 01:22 PM, said:
I don't think people will name their city as being painfull, but the "Ache" in the meanning of waters and streams and so on seems more likely: people tend to name their cities according to either who founded it or to where it is located.

Possible meaning of "AKEN".
According to Jensma (2006, p.75) the Oldfrisian dictionary of Mr. M. de Haan Hettema gives: bekend (known).

OLB p.2 line 13
THACH THÀT ELLA IS JO SELVA A.KEN

Ottema p.7
Doch dat alles is u zelven ook bekend

Sandbach p.7
This is well known to you

Jensma
Maar dat alles is u zelf bekend

### Posted 02 November 2011 - 07:16 PM
Abramelin, on 02 November 2011 - 05:59 PM, said:
But those are 2 words A and KEN.

A.KEN = A-ken = Aken

There's plenty of examples of words in OLB that originally were two words with a dot in between, and later became one word.

Random example p.3 line 17: ROND.DÉL = rondeel (http://nl.wikipedia....ondeel_(vesting))

In De Haan Hettema's dictionary "aken" was spelled as one word, meaning: known.

So now the meaning of AKEN is known. LOL

### Posted 02 November 2011 - 07:47 PM
Abramelin, on 02 November 2011 - 07:36 PM, said:
It's "Martegue", you see it, yes? Or "Maguelone", another island?
Please say 'yes'.


The candidate for Missellja must not only be an island, but also a strategic spot, with good harbor facilities etc.

That's what I like about Knul's hypothesis.

Mallorca is the first big island in the Mediterranean, coming from the Strait of Gibraltar and has a wonderful bay on the southside, where the capital Palma is located, a major seaport.

### Posted 02 November 2011 - 08:10 PM
Abramelin, on 02 November 2011 - 08:01 PM, said:
BUT... it's not close to any coast.
And THAT is what the OLB tells us.
And it's NOT in the northern part of the Med, but in the western part of the Med.


I finally took the effort to check the text.
You are right.

INNER NORTHLIKSTE HERNE FON THA MIDDEL-SÉ.
THÉR LÉID EN É.LAND BY THÉRE KÁD


### Posted 03 November 2011 - 07:06 PM
Knul, on 03 November 2011 - 01:51 PM, said:
Jensma
1. denies that Cornelis over de Linden did not understand the manuscript as he wrote to Verwijs,
2. denies that Leendert over de Linden stated that his father Cornelis over de Linden did not write the OLB,
3. denies the role of Ernest Stadermann,
4. denies that Verwijs called the OLB a hoax in a letter to Johan Winkler,
5. denies that Haverschmidt wrote to Leendert over the Linden, that he did not participate and even didn't know Cornelis over de Linden.

If one denies, what people have written, one can proof anything.


Please reconsider the witness reports of:
(See quote below.)

1. Schoolteacher Cornelis Wijs in 1876 about 1831.
2. Two schoolteachers in a notary statement, about 1848.
3. Naval officer W.M. Visser, about 1854.
4. Jacob Munnik about 1845.
5. Schoolmaster M.K. de Jong, about ca. 1837.
6. Hein Kofman and his mother Cornelia Kofman-Reuvers, about 1845.

The statements from these people suggest or confirm the existence of the manuscript in the Over de Linden family, long before it would have been created according to the hoax theories.

My question to the forum and specially to Knul is: how can these witness reports be explained?

Otharus, on 12 May 2011 - 01:08 PM, said:
Yes, there are several witness reports that indicate that in the 30's and 40's of the 19th century, the manuscript existed already and/or that the Over de Lindens believed that they stemmed from an ancient noble Frisian family.
[...]
1. Schoolteacher Cornelis Wijs stated in 1876 that in 1831 he had heard Jan Over de Linden (1785-1835), the father of Cornelis, boost about descending from "the oldest family in the world".
2. Two other schoolteachers made an official statement with a notary, that in 1848 they had heard Cornelis Over de Linden junior (1833-1868) boost about virtually the same (being from ancient noble Frisian descent), as well as his father (Cornelis senior) knowing this from "a book with strange letters".
3. Naval officer W.M. Visser had made a diary note on 23-12-1854 of having heard from Cornelis Over de Linden that the latter had told him about the book and that it was written "in a strange language and a strange script".
[...]
5. New information
Translated from Molenaar (1949), a quote from Jacob Munnik, who was married to a pre-marital daughter of Cornelis Over de Linden's first wife (which makes him Cornelis' step-son-in-law.)

"In 1845 (a year before my marriage), C. Over de Linden, bookbinder Stadermann and me went on a little tour together (to Enkhuizen). We visited an old skipper, where Over de Linden's mother was a housekeeper. C.O.L. spoke with his mother and the old man in private and when we had left Enkhuizen, he said: "It's a bloody shame; the old one has an old book that belongs to us and he does not want to hand it over. It proves that our family is old." He also spoke about forested areas, like royal domains with many Linden-trees etcetra. "But it is old-Frisian; that's the bloody problem!", Cornelis had said.
For a few years he has been complaining about it (from 1845-1847), but in the meantime he had started to learn the old-Frisian language."

I agree with author Molenaar that Munnik probably had confused the old skipper with Hendrik Reuvers, the husband of aunt Aafje, whom they will also have visited.

6. More new information
Again from Molenaar (1949), who writes about an article in the Friesche Courant of 30-4-1877, written by M.K. de Jong, schoolmaster in the village Kooten. He states that a trustworthy fellow villager had declared that "about 40 years ago" (ca. 1837) "his uncle Leendert Over de Linden had told him that there were some very old manuscripts kept by the Over de Linden family."
7. Relevant to know is also that Hein Kofman (1853-1933), who was said to have heard that Cornelis Over de Linden had stolen the OLB from the house of his parents, lived all his life in the house of his parents Rijkent Kofman and Cornelia Reuvers (1818-1878), which had also been the house of his grandparents Hendrik Reuvers and Aafje Over de Linden (1798-1849) as well as the house of Andries Over de Linden (1759-1820) and IJfje Schols. This means that since the death of Andries Over de Linden in 1820, the manuscript has stayed in the same house until Cornelis took it to Den Helder in 1848.

Cornelia Kofman-Reuvers would have stated that "without doubt the manuscript had been kept here [in her house] in a corner, covered with dust." She did not remember how long it had stayed there and when it had been moved to Den Helder.


### Posted 03 November 2011 - 07:40 PM
Abramelin, on 03 November 2011 - 07:38 PM, said:
Otharus, all these sources are members of the Over de Linden family.
And those who are not members of the family are close acquaintances or friends of the family.


So you think they were all lying?

Schoolteacher Cornelis Wijs, the two other schoolteachers, naval officer W.M. Visser and schoolmaster M.K. de Jong were not family nor known to be close acquaintances.

Did you have a source for that?

Jacob Munnik, Hein Kofman and Cornelia Kofman-Reuvers were family, but the Kofmans were not on Cornelis' side; Hein Kofman claimed that Cornelis had stolen the manuscript from his parents.

Do you have an explanation for that?

### Posted 03 November 2011 - 10:27 PM
Abramelin, on 03 November 2011 - 09:29 PM, said:
I have another question: could you give us the sources of this info (in Dutch)?
Not that I don't trust you, but maybe I can squeeze a bit more out of it.


My sources are "De Gemaskerde God" by Jensma and "Wie heeft het OLB geschreven?" by J.B. Vinkers.

I quoted and translated extensively in earlier posts.
This might be a good one to start with:

Otharus, on 19 April 2011 - 08:02 AM, said:
Some first attempts towards a new OLB theory
Earlier we have read about Cornelis Over de Linden's version of the story of how he got the OLB manuscript from his aunt Aafje in Enkhuizen.
Let's first have a look at three other versions by other people.
(Translated from DGG p.243)
[...]


### Posted 03 November 2011 - 11:15 PM
Knul, on 03 November 2011 - 10:51 PM, said:
Of course I know the witness reports. [...]

You didn't answer the question.
How do they fit into your theory?
Were all the witnesses lying?

### Posted 04 November 2011 - 08:24 AM
Knul, on 04 November 2011 - 12:16 AM, said:
You tell me, if he lied or not.

I did, long ago:
Otharus, on 19 April 2011 - 08:02 AM, said:
Some first attempts towards a new OLB theory
[...]
Because Jensma believes that Cornelis was involved in the creation of the OLB, his theory about the above is that:
1) There must have been some old family document but this was lost as it can not have been OLB.
2) Cornelis' version of the story is a total lie.

I believe that some parts Cornelis' version of the story may be lies, but not all.

One important element of his version is that his uncle, Hendrik Reuvers (1796-1845) did not want Cornelis to have the book. This would explain why Cornelis in 1845, after his uncle's death, tried to retrieve the book.

Lie #1 of Cornelis: He DID know of the OLB and has made efforts to get it. (In Wirth's publication, it says that before the OLB was translated, Cornelis believed that it contained information about a family treasure.)

It also means that Hendrik Reuvers knew that the book was important, he may have known what exactly it was about, as he was 24 when his father-in-law, Andries Over de Linden, died in 1820. Since aunt Aafje was ilitterate, it is more likely that Andries discussed the book with Hendrik and maybe taught him to read it. Hendrik's daughter Cornelia/Kee married to Rijkent Kofman in 1838, so Reuvers had enough time to pass on knowledge to his son-in-law.

Noteworthy is that when Aafje Over de Linden married Hendrik Reuvers, they asked her cousin Jan Over de Linden (1776-1858) to be a witness, and not her older brother Jan (1785-1836).

Since his aunt was ilitterate and since Hein Kofman later said that Cornelis had stolen the book (while his brother Jacob Kofman became an 'apostle'), and since Hajo Last knew a version where Cornelis got the book from his cousin Kee, I suspect a second lie:

Lie #2 of Cornelis: He did not recieve the OLB from his aunt Aafje Reuvers-Over de Linden, but from her daughter Cornelia Kofman-Reuvers, probably using force or maybe he even took it without her consent. This would explain his story "sitting at the table", more that 13 years later (between 1861 and 1867). He felt he needed to stress the fact that she had given it to him and that this had been the will of his grandfather.

With everything I know so far, I find it most likely, that:

1. The OLB had been passed on in 1820 from Andries Over de Linden to his son-in-law Hendrik Reuvers, who already had two unlawful children with his daughter Aafje, whom he would officially marry in 1821.
2. After Hendrik's death in 1845, the book was passed on to his son-in-law Rijkent Kofman, the husband of Cornelia Reuvers.
3. Between 1845 and 1848, Cornelis Over de Linden tried to get the book, in which he succeeded in 1848.
4. Between 1848 and 1876 Cornelis tried to decipher and translate the book himself, and when he came to the conclusion that the book did not contain information about a family-treasure, he gradually sent it to specialists, possibly hoping that at least it would increase their status and social position.


### Posted 04 November 2011 - 03:47 PM
Knul, on 04 November 2011 - 01:02 PM, said:
I think there was a family quarrel about the inheritance of the bookshop and printery of the founder Jan over de Linden between the Enkhuizen branche of the family and the Den Helder branche.

Why do you think this?
Is it just a thought or do you have a source?

Quote
They returned with empty hands since Hendrik Reuvers, husband of Aunt Aafje, opposed to a deal. Obviously aunt Aafje had been appointed to settle the inheritance.

This is speculation and certainly not "obvious".

Hendrik Reuvers died 15-2-1845. The witness reports say that in 1845 they visited Cornelis' MOTHER, not his aunt. His mother was working for (and living with) an old skipper and he would have opposed to handing over the manuscript.

We may suspect that the witness confused the aunt for the mother and Reuvers for the skipper, but we should be careful not to present our assumptions as facts here.

Quote
It has been Cornelis over de Linden, who said that he received the OLB from aunt Aafje (letter to Verwijs, september 1867) as a family treasure, but you think her daughter Cornelia gave it to Cornelis over de Linden.

That is not just my thought.

Cornelis' story was inconsistent. He had told Hajo Last that he had received it from his cousin Cornelia Reuvers.

I have been very careful with always mentioning my sources, quoting and translating. On your website you list a huge amount of sources (my compliments for that), but I have to conclude that you haven't read them all (properly).

Quote
This is in contradiction to the witness report of Berk, who says that Over de Linden possesed the OLB in 1853.

No, it's not.

In all versions of the story he got the manuscript in his hands in 1848.

Quote
Besides you change the meaning of the family treasure from an old book to a hidden treasure (money ?), which would be indicated in the book.

No, I did not.

Wirth wrote that Cornelis initially thought the book would contain information about a family treasure. If remember correctly, Jensma mentioned this too in his book.

### Posted 04 November 2011 - 04:26 PM
Knul, on 04 November 2011 - 03:55 PM, said:
Paper investigation in the 19th century tells, that the paper was 25 years old.

This 'investigation' is disputable. There were no good research methods and the investigators had never before seen 13th century paper. Their frame of reference was too limited and they were most probably not neutral (just like the nowaday paper-research team).

Quote
This is confirmed by recent spectrometric investigation of the paper.

No, it is not.

I have demonstrated that the research team is biased and that the outcome of their investigation is contradicting.

A carbondating examination is needed.
Why don't they simply do that?

### Posted 04 November 2011 - 04:53 PM
Quote
Knul:
Besides you change the meaning of the family treasure from an old book to a hidden treasure (money ?), which would be indicated in the book.

Oth.:
No, I did not. Wirth wrote that Cornelis initially thought the book would contain information about a family treasure. If remember correctly, Jensma mentioned this too in his book.

Knul:
In his first letter to Verwijs he speaks of 'heiligdom' (sacred), which he had to keep and maintain, not of treasure (money). This must be speculation by Jensma.


The one (sacred family document) does not exclude the other (possible information about a treasure).

Wirth already wrote about this in the 1930's.

Read more carefully and check your sources before accusing a respectable researcher of speculation.

### Posted 04 November 2011 - 04:56 PM
Quote
Knul:
This is in contradiction to the witness report of Berk, who says that Over de Linden possesed the OLB in 1853.

Oth.:
No, it's not. In all versions of the story he got the manuscript in his hands in 1848.

Knul:
The contradiction is the meeting 13 years later.


What meeting?
Can you quote Berk's witness report about 1853?

### Posted 04 November 2011 - 05:02 PM
Quote
Knul:
They returned with empty hands since Hendrik Reuvers, husband of Aunt Aafje, opposed to a deal. Obviously aunt Aafje had been appointed to settle the inheritance.

Oth.:
This is speculation and certainly not "obvious".
Hendrik Reuvers died 15-2-1845. The witness reports say that in 1845 they visited Cornelis' MOTHER, not his aunt. His mother was working for (and living with) an old skipper and he would have opposed to handing over the manuscript.
We may suspect that the witness confused the aunt for the mother and Reuvers for the skipper, but we should be careful not to present our assumptions as facts here.

Knul:
No speculation. Her sister didn't know.


Who's sister didn't know what?

### Posted 04 November 2011 - 05:10 PM
Quote
Knul:
I think there was a family quarrel about the inheritance of the bookshop and printery of the founder Jan over de Linden between the Enkhuizen branche of the family and the Den Helder branche.

Oth.:
Why do you think this? Is it just a thought or do you have a source?

Knul:
No other source than you have, but it is clear that they didn't go to Enhuizen just for fun (Over de Linden, Munnik and Stadermann). It has been said, that Stadermann has been taken with them because he knew about old books. Besides it has been reported, that Over de Linde was angry, that he did not get his share.


1. Over de Linden was angry that his uncle would not let him have the old family treasure (the Oldfrisian manuscript).

2. He took Stadermann because the latter knew about old books.

3. They went to Enkhuizen to try and collect the Manuscript and perhaps some other valuable books.

So what is your source for the "family quarrel about the inheritance of the bookshop and printery of the founder Jan over de Linden between the Enkhuizen branche of the family and the Den Helder branche"???

Let's stick to the facts.

### Posted 04 November 2011 - 05:23 PM
Abramelin, on 04 November 2011 - 04:27 PM, said:
Goffe Jensma has been discussed here often, but up to now we only read small parts of his analysis of the OLB.
I think it is fair to at least read what he had to say, even though many here do not agree with his conclusions.
His analysis is available online, but as a jumbled textual mess: someone obviously downloaded a PDF and without second thoughts copied all the 'hidden links' and footnotes along with the text itself. [...]


Thanks for that Abe, but it's still only part of his work.

The full publication of his "analysis", the thesis "De Gemaskerde God" (The Masked God), published in 2004 (only in Dutch), is not available online yet.

His conspiracy theory is with great distance superior to Knul's, but still not credible.

All specialists who were present at his book presentation agreed about that.

### Posted 04 November 2011 - 05:54 PM
Abramelin, on 04 November 2011 - 05:48 PM, said:
But did you just say they discussed Knul's work at the presentation of Jensma's book?

No.
I understand the confusion.
I ment they agreed that Jensma's theory (that Haverschmidt was the main creative genius behind the OLB) is not credible.

Otharus, on 14 October 2010 - 04:49 PM, said:
Goffe Th. Jensma wrote a thesis about the OLB and is generally accepted to be the 'official authority' on the subject.
[...]
At a public discussion on the occasion of his promotion, none of the speakers agreed with his conclusion that François Haverschmidt must have been the genius behind OLB. (see below)
[...]
Source: Leeuwarder Courant, friday 10 december 2004
Dutch title of article: "Van het Oera Linda-boek, de Friese kip en de zeespiegel"
Translation of relevant fragment (by me):
"Although the speakers without exception praised Jensma's work, he had not been able to convince any of them of his truth that François Haverschmidt is the main author of the OLB."
Original fragment in Dutch:
"Hoewel de sprekers zonder uitzondering vol lof waren over het werk van Jensma, had hij niemand kunnen overtuigen van zijn waarheid dat François Haverschmidt de belangrijkste auteur van het Oera Linda-boek is."


Correcting myself:
It was not all specialists that were present, but all specialists that spoke at his presentation.

### Posted 05 November 2011 - 10:11 AM
Knul, on 05 November 2011 - 12:27 AM, said:
Sister of Aafje Meyloff didn't know about OLB.

You mean Antje Van Doornik-Over de Linden (1795-1882), sister of Aafje Meijlof-Over de Linden (1798-1849) and Jan Over de Linden (1785-1835), the father of Cornelis.

Cornelis' father Jan was not interested in the manuscript and aunt Aafje was illiterate.

Here's a very short summary of my hypothesis:

Andries Over de Linden (1759-1820) was keeper of the manuscript.

[fact:] His daughter Aafje and the father of her children, Hendrik Reuvers, lived in his house in Enkhuizen.

Hendrik Reuvers (1796-1845) was initiated into the secrets of the book by his father-in-law Andries Over de Linden (1759-1820).

[fact:] The daughter of Aafje and Hendrik, Cornelia Reuvers (1818-1878) and her husband Rijkent Kofman (1820-1861) lived in the house of Cornelia's parents.

Hendrik Reuvers initiated his son-in-law Rijkent Kofman into the secrets of the book.

Cornelis Over de Linden (1811-1874) had heard of the book and stole it in 1848 or at least used pressure on his cousin Cornelia (Kee) to hand it over.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
That Antje OL didn't know about the book does not prove that it did not exist.
There are many other facts that make it more likely that it did.

### Posted 05 November 2011 - 12:37 PM
Otharus, on 05 November 2011 - 10:11 AM, said:
That Antje OL didn't know about the book does not prove that it did not exist.

I forgot to add this link to one of my earlier posts, just to show that I knew and don't hold back information.

Otharus, on 12 May 2011 - 01:08 PM, said:
Another aunt of Cornelis, Antje Van Doornik-Over de Linden (1795-1882), when asked in 1876, said not to have heard of the manuscript.

We should consider all three possible explanations of this:

1. She really had never heard of it.
2. She had forgotten about it.
3. She lied.

### Posted 05 November 2011 - 09:38 PM
Knul, on 05 November 2011 - 08:35 PM, said:
I have never heard, that aunt Aafje was illiterate. I can hardly beliefe so, because she was a daughter of a bookshopper-publisher.

That is not correct.
Her father, Andries Over de Linden (1759-1820) was a carpenter (timberman).

### Posted 05 November 2011 - 10:26 PM
Knul, on 05 November 2011 - 08:35 PM, said:
I have never heard, that aunt Aafje was illiterate.

Jensma, "De Gemaskerde God", p.244:

It is most likely that Over de Linden indeed got hold of family documents ca. 1848, that had been kept in the family house at the Oude Rietdijk in Enkhuizen, where aunt Aafje and her daughter Cornelia were living. In this branch of the family, that was socially weak, the succesful Cornelis will have been regarded as a lettered man and as a head of the family to whom these documents belonged.
[Note:]
In my opinion, it is not likely that Cornelis received parts of this archive from his aunt Aafje. Much more likely is the earlier cited story by [Hajo] Last, who claimed that Over de Linden got these documents, that his grandfather wanted him to inherit, through Cornelia Reuvers-Kofman, who [also] lived in the house of this grandfather. [...]
Salient detail is, that both aunt Aafje and her daughter Cornelia were illiterate. Source: marriage certificate Aafje Over de Linden and Koop Simonsz Meijlof, 20 dec. 1846: the bride "declared not having learned to write." [...]


Original text in Dutch:
Het is het waarschijnlijkst dat Over de Linden inderdaad zo rond 1848 in het bezit is gekomen van familiestukken die tot dan toe bewaard werden in het familiehuis aan de Oude Rietdijk te Enkhuizen, waar tante Aafje en haar dochter Cornelia woonden. In deze tak van de familie, die sociaal gezien zeer zwak was, zal de carrièremaker Cornelis zijn beschouwd als een geletterd man en als de chef de famille aan wie deze stukken ook toekwamen.
[Noot:]
De meest waarschijnlijke weg waarlangs delen van dit archief bij Cornelis terecht zijn gekomen loopt mijns inziens niet via tante Aafje. Veel waarschijnlijker is het hiervoor geciteerde verhaal van [Hajo] Last, die beweert dat Over de Linden deze stukken, die de grootvader voor zijn stamhouder had bestemd, heeft gekregen van de bij deze grootvader inwonende Cornelia Reuvers-Kofman. [...]
Saillant detail is, dat zowel Tante Aafje als haar dochter Cornelia analfabeet waren. Bron: huwelijksacte Aafje Over de Linden en Koop Simonsz Meijlof, 20 dec. 1846: de bruid "verklaarde geen schrijven te hebben geleerd". [...]


### Posted 05 November 2011 - 10:33 PM
Abramelin, on 05 November 2011 - 10:03 PM, said:
I hope you won't mind, Otharus, but I 'bumped' this old post of yours to be able to know who is what, why, where and when.
This discussion between the two of you is kind of hard to follow.
For me this family thing is a lot more difficult to follow than anything we posted before about etymologies, myths, people, history, maps, and so on.


Yes, I understand it can be confusing.
I'm used to it as I have been a genealogist for almost 30 years now (started at highschool because I was bored).
Thanks for quoting that to fresh up our memory.
The whole (updated) Over de Linden genealogy is here: http://fryskednis.bl...-genealogy.html

### Posted 06 November 2011 - 10:23 AM
Abramelin, on 05 November 2011 - 10:38 PM, said:
Otharus, do you have Jensma's source for this story about what COL's grandson is suppposed to have said?

Yes:
Letter signed Santpoort, 7 Oct. 1965 from Riek Mulder-Pomper.

(From 1917 she had shared house with the widow of a grandson of Cornelis I, Floris August Over de Linden (1863-ca.1910), who had lived in the house of his grandfather in the 1860-s)

"... as a very little child he was brought to his grandfather. This grandfather must have been a very funny man, who was fooling everyone around and was always telling strange stories and said things that make you laugh. In one summer a few 'learned doctors from Leeuwarden', as the grandfather called them, came to visit, and took him out to go sailing. But there was a day, that the grandfather no longer joined, but was writing all day on big sheets of paper. He had fun, but never wanted to tell the little boy why. In the evening the 'learned doctors' came and grandfather would read to them what he had written during the day. Then they laughed loudly, and Floor had heard them shout: they'll be surprised and they'll never believe it! Years later, when he heard about the controversy around the book and had a good think about it, he went to his oldest brother Cor [= Cornelis III] (there was also a sister Brecht) and told him, that it was all nonsense, as he himself had seen Grandfather write the book [aged 5 or 6 years old!].
But Cor had become furious and had said, that he had no clue, that he should mind his own business, and keep his mouth shut, because after all the book said that they descended from kings! So he kept it for himself, he no longer could ask his grandfather, who had already passed away, and therefore he informed his wife about it. And Mrs. O.d.L. told me, probably because she thought, that at least someone should know. But first I had to solemnly promise her to never speak about it with anyone 'because of the sensitivity of the family'."


Jensma:
This note creates a difficulty though. Because the children arrived in Holland a long time after Verwijs had written the state officials and for more than one-and-a-half year had tried to introduce the manuscript into the world. One would say, that the witness report about Floris can therefore not be true. At second thought though another, much better explanation presents itself, namely that Over de Linden had not completely finished the manuscript in the beginning of 1869 and that the events that Floris remembered occurred not before the summer of 1869.

[Footnote:]
In his report [to state officials!!!] about the manuscript of 1867 Verwijs wrote, that it 'contains about 200 pages in 4, the last part of which apparently is missing though...'. The usual interpretation of this is obviously that the OLB ends at page 210 in the middle of a sentence which (indeed) suggests that part is missing. But one can also interpret it, that the last part was missing and therefore still had to be made or finished. Based on existing writings that still needed editing, he estimated the expected size of the book at 200 pages.

Quote (Otharus)
I must admit that Goffe Jensma has a good imagination.
But mine is better.
With one simple question I can sweep his theory off the table:

What if King Willem of the Netherlands himself would have heard of the manuscript and taken an interest in it, what if he would have suddenly sent a telegram saying that he would arrive with the first next ship or horse and carriage, to personally come and have a look at the manuscript himself?

Surely, the supposed hoaxers Over de Linden and Verwijs would not have taken the risk to stand empty handed, and be demasked as swindlers, after their many attempts to get a transcription and translation of the manuscript funded!


### Posted 06 November 2011
This grandson stayed with Cornelis Over de Linden in the summer of 1869.

Verwijs wrote in 1867 to state officials about the manuscript containing "about 200 pages".

If Verwijs and Over de Linden were part of the supposed conspiracy, they would not be so stupid to not finish the manuscript before trying to have it translated and published.

### Posted 06 November 2011 - 12:10 PM
The Puzzler, on 06 November 2011 - 11:49 AM, said:
I don't really doubt there could be an Aldland in Friesland and then an Aldland in from whence these Finda's people came in. It's how both can be one is the answer that's really needed.

The discussion about toponyms being found in the provionce of Friesland as well as in the big world out there makes me think of an old philosophical principle as above so below (or something like that).

I can imagine that the Frisians wanted to 'copy' the big world into their little world by copying those toponyms like Middle Sea, Egiptaland etcetera.

Furthermore, Aldland just means "old land"; it can refer to any old or former land.

There are places that are called "Ouddorp" (old village), "Oudendijk" (old dike).

In the province of Zeeland there are two villages Oudeland and Oudelande.

### Posted 06 November 2011 - 04:26 PM:
"NOCHT": a NAUGHTY word in the OLB?
An example of subtle censorship by translators
==>> this language study is seperately posted.

I will later add the fragments with NOCH, ENOCH and ÉNOCH as they are obviously related too.

### Posted 06 November 2011 - 05:14 PM
Abramelin, on 06 November 2011 - 02:02 PM, said:
There was no "Middle Sea" in the big world, there was only a Middle Sea in the province of Friesland. And you will only find a 'Mittelsee' in either Germany or maybe Switserland.

You are contradicting yourself:

Abramelin, on 06 November 2011 - 02:05 PM, said:
everytime I tell you the Jews named the Med Middle Sea after the medieval German (in Latin) name for that sea.

### Posted 06 November 2011 - 05:20 PM
Abramelin, on 06 November 2011 - 02:30 PM, said:
Still, from what you posted, I think it's possible this Floor could have been present when his grandfather was busy finishing the manuscript.

I think you ignored this:

"This note creates a difficulty though. Because the children arrived in Holland a long time after Verwijs had written the state officials and for more than one-and-a-half year had tried to introduce the manuscript into the world."

"In his report [to state officials!!!] about the manuscript of 1867 Verwijs wrote, that it 'contains about 200 pages in 4, the last part of which apparently is missing though...'."

And don't forget it's a 'witness report' out of the 3rd hand, written down a century after it was supposed to have happened...

### Posted 06 November 2011 - 07:17 PM
Abramelin, on 06 November 2011 - 06:17 PM, said:
OK, the German 'Middle Sea' (latin: Mediterranea) came into existence many ages after the Fryans are supposed to have given a sea that name.

With "came into existence" you probably mean: "is mentioned on the oldest known source".
We don't know if the name existed earlier.
Sometimes a new source is found that changes generally accepted theories.
Our current theories are based on known and accepted sources.
A new theory that challenges the existing mainstream ones, is "alternative" untill it is accepted.
OLB is not a well known alternative source yet, and certainly not explained and understood properly.

### Posted 9 November 2011 - 09:35 AM
The Puzzler, on 08 November 2011 - 11:29 PM, said:
I still think it's fake, but not bs.

If the manuscript would be fake, it should be very easy to at least prove that the paper is modern and artificially colored. (But even then it could be a copy of an older original.)

The paper research has been going on for several years now and there still is no clear answer to the question where and when it was made.

The research team is not willing to share results (other than two very vague articles) or answer questions about them.

A very recent study has proved that when research data is not willingly shared, it usually means that the outcome is not what the researchers hoped or expected.

"Willingness to Share Research Data Is Related to the Strength of the Evidence and the Quality of Reporting of Statistical Results"http://www.plosone.org...Fjournal.pone.0026828

Ottema must have been right after all, which means that many scholars that ridiculed him will lose their credibility.

### Posted 9 November 2011 - 11:03 AM
The Puzzler, on 09 November 2011 - 10:21 AM, said:
It could be sheer co-incidence that the date 1806 is given. That's really the swaying point for me.

The year 1806 is not all that significant really.
I don't think Dutch children learn it at school anyway.
In many years some 'major event' could be found if you look for it.

In THEORY it would be possible that people would keep unused paper (over 200 pages!) for 600 years (not so sure about the ink), but do you think that's realistic?

As for the so-called 'modern expressions'...
They are as modern as the oldest written down record of them.
The word FVCK is obviously much older than the first time it was written down.

Yesterday I bought a book with fabliaux from the 12th and 13th century (and I will be busy reading it).

Because they have been kept locked up in secret and private libraries until relatively recently, it's hard to believe that people dared to think, speak out and write these things back then.

But they did... and how!
In our perception of the past of our languages, we are dependent of the few sources that we have.

Never forget it's only a fraction of what ever existed.
(Remember winters here can be very cold and dark and we didn't always have central heating and lightbulbs. No better way to start a fire than with paper.)

### Posted 9 November 2011 - 11:33 AM
Otharus, on 09 November 2011 - 11:03 AM, said:
Yesterday I bought a book with fabliaux from the 12th and 13th century (and I will be busy reading it).

For Abe (when you get bored with the OLB)...
Zo bijgeschaafd als de tekst, zo 'onbeschaafd' is de inhoud van deze fabliaux. 'Boertig' is de juiste typering, maar menig lezer zal dit na één blik op de inhoudsopgave een eufemisme vinden. 'De lullendroom' of 'De ridder die kutten aan de praat kon krijgen' was misschien een betere titel voor deze bundel geweest; want het scabreuze element overheerst in deze twaalfde- en dertiende-eeuwse boerten. Geile geestelijken, overspelige vrouwen en hoorndragers figureren in haast iedere fabliau. 'Het neuken', stelt Van Altena in zijn inleiding, 'is aan de orde van de dag en de nacht.' Maar bij dit alles worden de zinnen geen moment geprikkeld.

Het ging vooral om de humor; er moest gelachen worden. En voor het publiek van de jongleurs was er geen groter vermaak dan leedvermaak. Er wordt dan ook menigeen afgerost in deze boerten, met als tragisch dieptepunt de ferme kastijding en zelfcastratie van pater Richard in 'Kutbert'. Deze pastoor alias pierewaaier gaat te dikwijls op bezoek bij een willige smidsvrouw, en dat wekt de wraakzucht van haar echtgenoot. Samen met zijn knecht betrapt de smid de pater op heterdaad, overmeestert hem en zet hem met zijn klokkenspel klem in een bankschroef. Vervolgens gaat de smidse in brand, waarop pater Richard geen andere keuze heeft dan gebruik te maken van het hem overhandigde scheermes. 'Zo kwam de pater aan zijn recht,' aldus de fabliau. Maar dat is nog niet echt het eind van het verhaal, want

Hiermee wordt het relaas besloten.
Ze vonden nog zijn beide kloten
geroosterd in het hete vuur,
die aten ze ten slotte puur
zonder komijn bij het ontbijt
als delicate smaak'lijkheid.


http://admin.nrcboek...als-een-beddepo

### Posted 9 November 2011 - 03:16 PM
Abramelin, on 09 November 2011 - 02:29 PM, said:
It's just that in that year Napoleon's brother became king here,
it's just about the French Revolution with the same ideas as we read about in the OLB,
it's also just a coincidence the French Revolution started in the year Joast Halbertsma was born,
it's again just a coincidence that the French Revolutionaries wanted to introduce a "Supreme Being" like Wralda,
and then we have their 'sacred tree', a linden-tree (lime tree / all those Lindens in the OLB),
their slogan égalite, liberté, fraternité,
and so on.


I'm used to 'co-incidences.
That's why I can relate to the concept of a 'world-ghost' (or collective subconsciousness).
I prefer that to paranoid thinking and seeing conspiracies everywhere.

### Posted 9 November 2011 - 03:20 PM
Here's a some of my doubts about the Halbertsma theory:

1) If I understand it correctly, you (Abe and Knul) believe that Halbertsma could have written most of what is now the OLB, using his knowledge of language, mythology and history. None of his friends and relatives knew about all this work. He had kept this a total secret.

2) After his death, others got hold of his notes or primal version and added and/or changed things, suggesting a link to the Over de Linden family. You and Knul believe that Stadermann did this, so he could sell it to Over de Linden.

3) But the (Westfrisian) Over de Linden family was not wealthy. Stadermann could better have chosen a rich Frisian family. And then there's all these witness accounts about the manuscript having been in the OdL family in Enkhuizen.

All this is not explained (yet) in the Halbertsma theory.
There's just too many facts that make any of the existing hoax theories terribly unbelievable.
And there is still no hard evidence AGAINST authenticity of the OLB.
Let's at least agree that it could possibly be authentic.
That would already be a great step forward.