Der Geistiger Ahnenerbe

In 1933 publiceerde Herman Wirth een Duitstalige versie - met discussie en illustraties - van het Oera Linda-boek. Op 1 juli 1935 werd Forschungsgemeinschaft Deutsches Ahnenerbe opgericht door Himmler, Wirth en Darré. Het OLB staat in Duitsland nog immer bekend als Himmlers Bibel.

Ahnen (znw) = voorouders
Ahne ,, = voormoeder
Ahn ,, = voorvader
(etwas) ahnen (ww) =  (iets) voorvoelen, voorzien, vermoeden
Ahnung (znw) = voorgevoel, vermoeden, besef

Erbe (znw) = erfenis, erfgoed, erfdeel, erfgenaam

"Wirth was trouwens een van de oprichters van Ahnenerbe en moet er één der invloedrijke leden van zijn geweest, vermits hem meteen de sektie Studie van voorhistorisch schrift en symbolen werd toevertrouwd. [...] In 1938 brak hij met Ahnenerbe, wel onder de dubbele druk van de vakhistorici, die hem voor een dilettant hielden, en van de nazi-ideologen die hem hoogst kwalijk namen dat hij niet ophield te proklameren dat elke Führerkultus historisch gezien een vervalverschijnsel is..." (fragment uit: Herman Wirth en de Indo-Europese Voorgeschiedenis door Marc Eemans)

Herman Wirth (1885-1981), author of "Die Ura Linda Chronik" (1933)

and one of the founders of "Deutsches Ahnenerbe" (1935)

Die Ura Linda Chronik

Die Ura Linda-Chronik, das älteste Zeugnis germanischer Geschichte, wurde vor 60 Jahre in Holland aufgefunden. Die zunächst bezweifelte Echtheit wird nun von Herman Wirth überzeugend nachgewiesen. Das Werk berichtet von Kriegszügen und Entdeckungsfahrten, von Not- und Glückszeiten unserer Vorfahren zurück bis 2193 v. Chr., von heiligen Gesetzen unserer Ahnen, staatlichen Einrichtungen, Sitten und Gebräuchen. Die Ura Linda-Chronik vermittelt damit ein eindrucksvolles Bild stolzer Kulturhöhe unserer Vorfahren und gibt dem deutschen Volke sein geistiges Ahnenerbe wieder, in einer Zeit, die reif wurde für solche Offenbarung. (inleiding op boekomslag)

Originele druk in Gothische letters (1933): link
Overgezet in beter leesbare versie (normale letters): link

 Hier kan de vertaling van Wirth worden vergeleken met de originele tekst.

Inhalt

011 Der Text der Chronik
013 - Geleitwort von Hidde Ura Linda: "Okke, mein Sohn"
013 - Geleitwort von Liko Ovira Linda: "Liebe Erben"

015 Aus dem Buche der folger Adelas
016 - Dies ist unsere älteste Geschichte
017 - Fryas Rat
019 - Dies hat Festa gesagt
020 - Festa sagte
020 - Dies sind die Gesetze, die zu den Burgen gehören
023 - Gemeine Gesetze
025 - Hier folgen die Gesetze, welche daraus geworden sind
026 - Hier sind die Rechte der Mütter und Könige
028 - Hier sind die Rechte aller Friesen, um sicher zu sein

030 Aus Minnos Schriften
030 - Gesetze für Steurer
032 - Hierunter sind drei Wissen, darnach sind diese Satzungen gemacht
033 - Diese Bestimmungen sind gemacht für neidigliche Menschen
034 - Dies sind die Rechts-satzungen für Horningen
035 - Nützliche Sachen aus den nachgelassenen Schriften Minnos

039 Aus den Schriften von Adelbrost und Apollonia
039 - Älteste Lehre
040 - Der zweite Teil der ältesten Lehre

044 Aus dem Buche der Folger Adelas
044 - Was hierunten steht, ist in die Wände der Waraburg geritzt
045 - Dies steht auf allen Burgen geschrieben
047 - Wie die arge Zeit kam
047 - Dies steht an der Waraburg bei der Aldergamunde geritzt
048 - Also ist die Geschichte
051 - Dies alles steht nicht allein an der Waraburg, sondern auch an der Burg Stavia, die gelegen ist hinter dem Hafen von Stavre
053 - Was davon geworden ist
054 - Nun wollen wir schreiben über den Krieg der Burgmaide Kelta und Minerva
056 - Hierzu kommt die Geschichte von Jon
058 - Nun wollen wir schreiben, wie es Jon ergangen ist. Dies steht zu Texland geschrieben

062 Aus Minnos Schriften
065 - Dies ist über die Gertmänner
067 - Aus den Schriften Minnos
068 - In dem Jahre tausendundfünf, nachdem Aldland versunken ist, ist dies an der Ostwand in Fryas-Burg geschrieben
070 - Dies steht auf all unseren Burgen. Wie unsere Dänemarken uns verlorengingen, sechszehnhundertundzwei Jahre nachdem Aldland versunken ist
074 - Wie es dem Magy weiter ergangen ist

076 Aus dem Buche der Folger Adelas
079 - Dies sind die Grevetmänner, unter deren Walten dies Buch verfaßt wurde

082 Dies sind die nachgelassenen Schriften Brunnos, der Schreiber gewesen ist auf dieser Burg
083 - Die andere Schrift
084 - Die Burgmaid Lob
086 - Nun will ich selber schreiben, erst über meine Burg und dann über dasjenige, was ich habe sehen dürfen

091 Die Schriften von Frethorik und Wiljow
094 - Nun will ich schreiben, wie die Geertmänner und viele Folger der Hellenia zurückkamen
097 - Diese Schrift ist mir über Nordland oder Schonland gegeben
099 - Dies sind die Schriften von Hellenia. Ich habe die zuvordest gestellt, weil sie die allerältesten sind
103 - So lautet Franas letzter Wille
103 - Dies hat Gosa nachgelassen

105 Die Schrift von Konerêd
106 - Nun will ich über Friso schreiben
109 - Was Friso fürder tat
111 - Nun will ich schreiben über seinen Sohn Adel
113 - Hier ist die Schrift mit Gosas Rat
115 - Hier ist nun mein Rat
117 - Brief von Rika, der Altmaid, hergesagt zu Staveren beim Julfest
119 - ... darum will ich erst über den schwarzen Adel schreiben

~~~

Russische vertaling (2007) 

door Andrej Kondratjew van Wirth's 

"Die Ura Linda Chronik"

129 Die Einführung
131 I. Zur Geschichte der jetzigen Handschrift
135 II. Die Handschrift als neuzeitliche Fälschung abgelehnt
136 III. Zeitliche Entstehung der Handschrift
139 IV. Das Fehlen einer quellenkritischen Untersuchung des Inhaltes der Handschrift
143 V. Die Ura Linda-Handschrift und die Vorgeschichte
143 - a) Das 6-speichige Rad als Sinnbild Gottes und der zeit: Wralda und Krodo
153 - b) Krodo-Ul und das Schwangeleitboot
178 - c) Das Zeitenrad Wraldas und Krodos, der Gott in und mit dem Rade und die Ilgenkrone
183 - d) Der Schmuck als Bitte um Lichtsegen des Weltengottes
188 - e) Volksmutter und Burgmaid
235 - f) Der Turm der Volksmütter und die heilige Lampe
247 - g) "Die arge Zeit". Die postglaziale Klimaverschlechterung im Nordseekreis
252 - h) Altland-Atland
254 - i) Das Finda-Volk und der Magy
271 - k) Das "Germanen"-Mädchen von Egtved
275 - l) Buddha in Alt-Inguäonien
286 VI. Die Quellenechtheit der jetzigen Handschrift und zur Frage der älteren Handschriften
298 VII. Der Verfasser von Handschrift A, Liko Über die Linden, und seine Überlieferung des Ahnenvermächtnisses. Ein inguäonischer Reformator?
301 VIII. Was bedeutet uns dieses Glaubensvermächtnis von der Nordsee?

316 Anmerkungen

~~~

323 Der Bilderatlas

Lindenlied

Walther von der Vogelweide
sog. Lindenlied (ca. 1200)

I

‘Under der linden
an der heide,
dâ unser zweier bette was,
dâ mugent ir vinden
schône beide
gebrochen bluomen unde gras.
vor dem walde in einem tal,
tandaradei,
schône sanc diu nahtegal.

II

Ich kam gegangen
zuo der ouwe:
dô was mîn friedel komen ê.
dâ wart ich enpfangen,
hêre frouwe!
daz ich bin sælic iemer mê.
kust er mich? wol tûsentstunt:
tandaradei,
seht wie rôt mir ist der munt.

III

Dô het er gemachet
also rîche
von bluomen eine bettestat.
des wirt noch gelachet
inneclîche,
kumt iemen an daz selbe pfat.
bî den rôsen er wol mac,
tandaradei,
merken wâ mirz houbet lac.

IV

Daz er bî mir laege,
wessez iemen
(nu enwelle got!), sô schamt ich mich.
wes er mit mir pflæge,
niemer niemen
bevinde daz, wan er und ich,
und ein kleinez vogellîn:
tandaradei,
daz mac wol getriuwe sin.’

Letter F evolutie

Strand

[048/27] Eer erge tijd kwam
ALLE STRÁND ÀND SKOR.HÉMAR FON.A DÉNE.MARKA 
ALONT THÉRE SÀND.FAL. NW SKELDA
alle strand- en schorhemers van de Dénemarka
tot aan de Sàndfal, nu Skelda

[057/21] Tünis en Inka
AS THA BÉDE NÉVA.T.ALTHUS NAVT ÉNES WRDE KOSTE.
GVNG TÜNIS TO ÀND STEK EN RÁDE FONE IN.T STRÁND ÀND INKA ENE BLÁWE
als de beide neven 't aldus niet eens worden konden,
ging Tünis toe en stak een rode vaan in 't strand en Inka een blauwe

[093/29] Andere schrift Bruno
THA STRANDWÁKAR WÉRON FON HJARA NÉD.FJURA HLÁPEN
de strandwakers waren van hun noodvuren gelopen

Neder- & Holland

~ HWÉRVMBE WI THI NOMA nederland ÀND holland OFWISA MOTA ~

neder, nether, nither, nieder = down, downwards, below, beneath
nederig = humble

hol = (noun) cave, hole, hollow, arse; (adj.) hollow, cavernous, empty

ALDE NOMA:
~ FRYAS.LAND
~ TEX.LAND (tekst, textiel, techniek)

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

THJUDEMÀM (Διοτίμα, Diotima)

Diets + Duits (volk, taal) : THJUD / THJVD / THJUT / TJVT (asf.) : duiden, deuten / duidelijk, deutlich

"Diets is een overkoepelende term waarmee de Middelnederlandse regio-talen worden aangeduid die (gesproken), geschreven en gedrukt werden tussen circa 1200 en circa 1550. [...]
Diets stamt af van het Middelnederlandse woord diet, dat volk betekent. Het is verwant met het Gotische woord thiuda en het Oudengelse woord Þéod met dezelfde betekenis."
wiki/Diets

=====

M. Philippa e.a. (2003-2009) Etymologisch Woordenboek van het Nederlands

duiden ww. ‘uitleggen, vertalen; betekenen’
Mnl. *duden ‘betekenen’ [ca. 1200; CG II, Servas],
dieden ‘betekenen’ [1285; CG II, Rijmb.],
duden ‘uitleggen’ [1375-1400; MNW-R];
vnnl. ten archsten duyden ‘het ergste doen betekenen, in slechtste zin uitleggen’ [1587; WNT trots I],
duyden ‘uitleggen, vertalen’ [1595; WNT rechtzinnig].

Het woord wordt vaak in verband gebracht met pgm. *þeuðō- ‘volk’, zie → diets,
en zou dan letterlijk moeten betekenen ‘voor het volk verklaren, vertalen, duidelijk maken’.

Semantisch gezien kan het echter geen afleiding van dat woord zijn.  
{{de beide woorden kunnen echter wel op andere wijze aan elkaar gerelateerd zijn ~ Oth.}}

Daarom is vermoedelijk een ander woord secundair op *þeuðō- betrokken;
dat zou het bn. *þeuþa- ‘goed’ kunnen zijn (waaruit mnl. ge-diede ‘voorkomend, welwillend’).

Het werkwoord zal dan ‘goed, begrijpelijk maken’ betekenen. Zie ook → beduiden, → duidelijk.
Mnd. düden; ohd. diuten ‘verklaren, betekenen, vertalen’ (nhd. deuten);
ofri. bi-thiuda ‘verklaren’ (nfri. tsjutte);
oe. ge-ðiodan ‘vertalen’;
on. þýða ‘uitleggen, betekenen’ (nzw. tyda ‘duiden’);
< pgm. *þeuþjan- ‘begrijpelijk maken’, bij pgm. *þeuþa- ‘goed’ (EWgP 621-23).

Bij pgm. *þeuþa- ook os. githiudo ‘gepast’ en mnd. dieden ‘helpen’;
oe. geþiede ‘goed, deugdzaam’ en geþiedan ‘deelnemen; helpen’;
on. þýðr ‘vriendelijk’; got. þiuþ ‘goed’.

De homonymie met vormen die horen bij pgm. *þeuðō- ‘volk’ maakt de verdere etymologie moeilijk.

Misschien is er verband met pie. *teu- ‘vriendelijk bezien’ (IEW 1079-80).

=====
http://gtb.inl.nl
MNW ~
(diden, duden, duyden), zw. ww. trans. en intr. Mnd. duden; mhd. diuten, tiuten; ohd. diuten; hd. deuten. Zie verder Grimm, Wtb. 2, 1038; Kluge 49; en vgl. bedieden.
(dude), znw. vr. Mnd. dude; mhd. diute. Verklaring, uitlegging. Van dieden (z. ald.).

=====

OLB fragmenten

[002/20] Adela's Rede
THÉR HÉRDON HJA MITH LUSTUM NÉI THA VRDWÁLSKA FINNA SÁGUM.
THRVCHDAM HJA THJVD ÀND NÉI WÉRON.
SÁ SEND HJA VNT.FRYAST VNTHONKES THENE WALD HJARAR ALDRUM
[O+S p.7]
Daar hoorden zij met welgevallen [:lusten] naar de losbandige [:overdwaalse] sagen der Finnen,
omdat die slecht [? duidelijk, verklarend] en nieuw waren.
Zoo zijn zij ontfriesd ondanks de macht hunner ouders.
{N.B. indien THJVD hier slecht betekent - zoals in Nyfrysk -, hoort middelste regel bij laatste, niet bij eerste regel!}
There they learned with pleasure the loose ways of the Finns,
because they were bad [illustrative, explaining?] and new;
and thus they became denationalised in spite of the efforts of their parents.
{note: if THJVD has a negative meaning, like in newfrisian, the 2nd line belongs to the third}

[013/18] Tex Frya's
THÀN SKILUN J HJA HJRA DVMHÉD BITJVTHA
[O+S p.23]
dan zult gij haar hare dwaasheid beduiden
explain to her her folly

[039/20] Minno's Skrifta
THA FORSTA ÀND PRESTERA KÉMON BÁRJA THAT WI HJARA TJVTH OVER HÉRICH MAKAD HÉDE
ÀND THÀT FOLK KÉM TO VS VMBE HUL ÀND SKUL
[O+S p.57]
De vorsten en priesteren kwamen en gaven voor dat wij hunne onderdanen oproerig gemaakt hadden,
en het volk kwam tot ons om heul en schut [schuil] te vragen.
The priests and the princes declared that we had excited their subjects to rebellion,
and the people appealed to us for aid and protection [shelter].

[097/10] Burchfám's Love
THA FÉRHÉMANDA HÉRA KÉMON HJARA THJUD ASKJA
[O+S p.135]
De uitheemsche heeren kwamen hunne lieden opeischen;
The foreign lords came to look after their people,

[101/27] Andere deel Formleer
THISSA SÉKA MOTON KLÁR ÀND BÁR MÁKAD WRDA BY ALLE WISA.
SÁ HÀT HJAT ANOTHERA BITHJUTA ÀND BIWISA MÜGE
[O+S p.141]
Deze zaken moeten klaar en openbaar gemaakt worden op alle wijzen,
zoodat zij het aan anderen mogen beduiden en bewijzen.
These things must be made clear and manifest in every way,
so that they can be made clear and comprehensible to all.

[104/32] Taal en antwoord
BIFVNDEN HÀVANDE HO SÉR THET DVATH VMB.ALLÉNA TO TOBBANDE
ALSA BITHJUDE HIU HIRA BERN HO AND HWÉRVMBE HJU ALSA HÉDE DÉN
[O+S p.145]
Bevonden hebbende hoe zeer het doet, om alleen te tobben,
zoo beduidde zij hare kinderen, hoe en waarom zij zoo gedaan had.
Having found how hard it is to toil alone,
she showed her children how and why she had done it.

[113/12] Apollánja's Fárt
WI NE SKILUN NÉN BIHOF LONGER NAVT NÀVE AN THÀT WLA THJUD
[O+S p.155]
wij zullen geen behoefte langer hebben aan dat vuile volk.
we shall have no occasion to deal with those nasty people.

Stavo

Posted 14 November 2012 - 08:21 AM

 

In Frisian mythology, 'Stavoren' is mentioned as the oldest and most important city of 'Friesland'.
It would have been named after the god or idol Stavo. (OLB fragments below.)

In Belgium there is a city Stavelot (German name: Stablo; Walon: Ståvleu).

In the North-French Pas-de-Calais area there is a city Étaples (In Dutch a.k.a. Stapel).
Portus Staliocanus from Ptolomeus' Geographica II-8? (Suggested by J. Vandemaele.)

In Greek Stavros (Σταύρος) means pole or cross. It is a common name for people and places.
(I can imagine the link between a tree or carved pole/ trunk and and the name for an idol.)

Stable and staple are related words.

~

Once one accepts that Friesland/ Frisia from the myths does not equal the current Dutch province Friesland,
that remains of old-Stavoren will not be found in nowaday Stavoren (same for Medemblik etc.),
and that the Gyganten (giants), the dragon and mermaid may have been metaphors (or added to entertain the audience),
the mythology offers many possible new views and starts to make much more sense.

It is understandable why they were rejected as merely fiction between the 18th and 20th century.
A revision will answer many questions.

~

New transcription of (part of) Okko Scarlensis here: fryskednis/okke-fon-skarl
 ======
 

Otharus, on 14 November 2012 - 08:21 AM, said:

In Greek Stavros (Στaύρος) means pole or cross. It is a common name for people and places.
Stable and staple are related words.

And, I guess , names like Steven, Stefan, Stephanie, Esteban.

The Dutch and German naval term steven (stem of ship).
Danish: stævn
Norwegian: Stevn
Swedish: Stäv
French: étrave 

More related Dutch words:
staaf (rod, bar)
stevig (firm, solid)  

And, of course, staf...

... and staffel.

[005/12]
THA BVRGA LJVD.GÁRDA. LINDA.HÉM ÀND STÁVJA SEND VNDER SIN HOD

[005/31]
THAT STÉT ÁK TO STÁVIA ÀND TO MÉDÉA.S BLIK

[056/25]
THÉRE BURCH STAVJA THÉR IS LIDSEN ÀFTERE HAVA FON STÁVRE

[085/17]
HI WILDE THA FAM FON MÉDÉA.S.BLIK JEFTHA FON STÁVORA GABJA

[085/19]
THA STJURAR FON STAVORA ÀND FON THÀT ALDERGA

[087/08]
EN SPOTTER FONUT STAVORA

[103/29]
TRÁST THÉR FÁM WÉRE TO STAVIA

[111/10]
LIK TO STAVEREN WÉRON THA MÀNGÉRTNE MITH GOLDEN KRONUM VPPIR HOLUM ÀND MITH HRINGUM OM ÀRMA ÀND FÉT SJARAD

[118/23]
THÁ VSA LÁNDA WITHER TO BIGANA WÉR KÉMON THÉR BANDA ERMA SAXMANNA ÀND WIVA
NÉI THA WRDUM FON STÁVERE ÀND THÀT ALDERGA

[119/04]
HJA FORON TIL STAVERE THÉR HROPTON HJA JETA RÉIS

[119/31]
FRYSO RESTE MITH SINÁ LJUDUM TO STAVERE THAT HJA WITHER TO ÉNE SÉ.STÉDE MÁKADE

[144/18]
FRISO THÉR AL WELDICH WÉRE THRVCH SIN LJUD
WÀRTH ÁK TO VRSTE.GRÉVE KÉRN THRVCH STÁVEREN.S OMME.LANDAR

[146/02]
BI SIN LÉVE WAS.ER VRSTE GRÉVA TO STAVEREN WÉST

[148/14]
TO STÁVEREN ÀND ALLINGEN THÀT ALDER.GÁ THÉR WRDON THA BESTA WÉR.SKÉPA MAKED

[153/07]
THÉRVMBE NIL HI NAVT NE DÁJA THÀT HJU BURCH STAVJA WITHER VP HÉJATH WARTH

[154/31]
THA FRISO BI FJUWERTICH JÉR ET STÁVEREN HUSHALDEN HÉDE STURF.ER

[157/23]
DÁNÁ TÁGON HJA INOVIR STÁVEREN.S.WRDA BY HJARA LJUDA ROND

[189/02]
BRÉF FON RIKA THJU ALD.FÁM. VPSÉID TO STÁVEREN BY.T JOL.FÉRSTE

[195/04]
ÀFTERNÉI HETHER TO STÁVEREN LÉRED

[202/15]
TWISK THA BVW.FALA THÉRE VRHOMELDE BURCH STÁVJA
WAS JETA ÉNE SNODE BURCH.FÁM MITH SVME FÁMNE SÉTEN

[202/20]
THJUS FÁM BÁD AN ÁSKAR HJRA HELPE VNDER BITHING
THAT ÁSKAR SKOLDE THA BURCH STÁVJA WITHER VPBVWA LÉTA

[205/12]
FRÉTHO.GUNSTA KÉM EN JÉR LÉTER TO STÁVEREN

[205/15]
KIRT AFTER THÀT ÁSKAR MITH FRÉTHO.GUNSTA BOSTIGJATH WAS
WÀRTH THÉR TO STÁVEREN ÉNE SCHERKE BVWED

[205/24]
THJU BURCH STÁVJA NE WÀRTH NAVT WITHER VPEBVWED

[209/32]
THA FORSTA MOSTON THRIJA SJVGUN FON HJARA SVNUM NÉI STÁVEREN SENDA

[210/19]
BY EGMVDA HWÉR TO FÁRA THÉRE BURCH FOR.ÁNA STÁN HÉDE
LÉTON HJA ÉNE CHERKA BVWA JETA GRÁTER ÀND RIKAR AS ÁSKAR TO STÁVEREN DÉN HÉDE

RUN-script Reconstruction + F

Reconstruction of words in RUN-script OLB (from page 46).

The "run"-script has always been considered as typical 19th century, but this is not at all evident.

Specially the F is not like any Dutch handwriting I have ever seen.
It actually looks more like a Greek Phi.

For some letters it is obvious that they look like the Greek version, for example, K, U and T.

But if you have a better look at the L, you can see how it may have evolved (through the 'run'-version) into the Greek Lambda.

So:

Jol-F => run-F => Greek F
Jol-L => run-L => Greek L

This trick does not apply  for all letters, but that it does for some of them is, at least, remarkable.

===

Edit: after I posted I noticed that the Greek L is a mirrored version of the L that I made, based on the run-L (which is like the traditional capital L).

======

Abramelin, on 13 November 2012 - 01:29 PM, said:

Because of the crease in the paper, part of the letter -F- is hidden, but you can still see something extra:

 How do you interpret that dot?
Do you believe it is part of the letter?
How would you reconstruct the letter?

Abramelin, on 13 November 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I think the dot is what remains of a little line connected to the main figure (letter).

Can you make a drawing of what you think it should be?

 Abramelin:

I know it looks like sh1t, but either the one copying the MS had some problems with his quill, or this is how the letter should look.

Otharus:
The whole point about the RUN-script is that one can write fast and keep the pen on the paper as much as possible, so the ink can flow gently without making a mess. You will know if you have ever written with a dip-pen.

So I think your first guess is the right one, as this makes most sense IMO:

(in the last one I have exaggerated to make the direction visible) 

Love, Books & Freedom

Posted 06 November 2012 - 10:40 PM

An etymological relationship beteen love (liebe), books (library) and freedom (liberty)?

LJAFDE/ LJAVDE
leafde - frisian
liefde - dutch
liebe - german
love - english

LJAVE
lieve - dutch
liebe - german

LJAVER (also haver; oats in OLB)
liever - dutch
lieber - german

livre - french (book)
liber - latin
(cf. library - english)

délivrer - french
deliver - english
liberate - english
livereren - middle dutch
leveren - dutch

libertas - latin
liberty - english
liberté - french

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Varieties of love in the OLB

[00b/01] 2x
LJAWA ERVNÔMA. VMB VSA LJAWA ÉTHLA.S WILLE

[00b/04]
OCH LJAWE

[00b/17]
OCH LJAWA

[023/05]
THJU LJAFTE SINRA KÀMPONA MOT SIN SKÍLD WÉSA

[033/30]
HWÀT IK URVEN HÀV IS LJAFDE VR WISDOM. RJUCHT ÀND FRYDOM

[047/11]
AMONG THA GÀRS.SÉDUM HEDON WI NAVT ALENA. KÉREN. LJAVER ÀND BLÍDE

[072/27]
VMBE THAT HJU THA INHÉMAR SÁ FUL LIAFDE BIWÉSEN HÉDE

[080/19]
LJAFDE NE KV NÉN STEK LONGER NAVT FINDA ÀND ÉNDRACHT RUN ÉWÉI

[084/11]
FRYDOM. LJAFDE ÀND ÉNDRACHT SKILET FOLK IN HJARA WÁCH NÉMA

[094/03]
THET JUNGK-FOLK TÁCH SJONGANDE MITHA GÜRBÁM
ÀND THISSE OVER.FULDE LUFT MITH SINA LIAFLIKA ÁDAM

[104/10]
THÁ GVNG WRALDA TO ÀND WROCHTE IN HJRA MOD NIGUNG ÀND LIAVDE ANGGOST ÀND SKRIK

[133/29]
THÁ KÉM LJAFDE ÀND ÀFTERNÉI SEND WI MAN ÀND WIF WRDEN

[137/12]
FALXE SKOM. THER ALLERWÉIKES KVAD DVAT AN THA LJAVDE

[137/18]
NIMMAN HOVAT HIT TO DVANDE FORI ENNEN OTHERA.
HIT NE SÍ THÀT ET BI MÉNA WILLA JEF UT LJAVADE SKÉD

[137/21]
HI LÉRDE THÀT NIMMAN IN HJARA WAND MACHTE FROTA
VMBE GOLD HER SILVER NER KESTLIKA STÉNA
HWÉR NID AN KLÍWATH ÀND LJAVDE FON FLJUTH

[138/03]
É.LIKA DÉLA IS THA GRÁTESTE WITSKIP THÉR TID VS LÉRA MÉI.
THÉRVMBE THÀT HJU ÀRGENESE FON JRTHA WÉRATH ÀND LJAVDE FETH

[138/11]
SIN FRYASKA FRJUND HÉTE HIM BUDA. VMBE THAT HI IN SIN HÁVAD EN SKÀT FON WISDOM HÉDE
ÀND IN SIN HIRT EN SKÀT FON LJAVDE

[142/22]
FON THRJU WORDA SKILUN VSA ÀFTERKVMANDE AN HJARA LJUDA ÀND SLÁVONA THA BITHJUTNESSE LÉRA.
HJA SEND. MÉNA LJAVDA . FRYHÉD ÀND RJUCHT

[155/11]
THAHWILA A.DEL TO TEX.LÁND INNA LÉRE WÉRE.
WAS THÉR TEFTA EN ÉLLE LJAWE FÁM IN VPPER BURCH

[155/18]
A.DEL HÉDE HJA LJAF KRÉJEN ÀND HJU HÉDE A.DEL LJAF

[160/15]
LJAFDE IS FLJUCHT ÀND HORDON SIT MITH NÍD AN TÉFEL

[167/21]
LJAFLIKA STRÉKA HWÉRAN THET ÁG FORBONDEN BILÍWET

Abramelin, on 06 November 2012 - 11:00 PM, said:

These have nothing to do with love or liberty:
livre - french (book)
liber - latin
(cf. library - english)

Liber - Livre I will leave for later, but Liver - Lever is easy to prove:

Quote

délivrer - french
deliver - english
livereren - middle dutch
leveren - dutch

LIVEREREN
Middelnederlandsch Woordenboek: livereren
Oudste attestatie: Maldegem, ?Oost-Vlaanderen, 1286
Aangetroffen spelling: liuere(e)r-
Etymologie: Uit Ofra. livrer 'bevrijden; (terug)geven; voorzien (in)' (Greimas).
Korte betekenis: overhandigen
1. Overhandigen, (terug)geven. In de eerste aanh. meer bep.: betalen.

source: gtb.inl.nl

So to liberate and to deliver have the same origin.

======

How LIF lives forth (what is left of LIF) 
in Dutch, English, Frisian and German

D: lijf - liefde - leven. - lover. - lever - lof... - geloven - beloven
E: life - love.. - live.. - leaf.. - liver - lavish - beleave - ?
F: liif - leafde - libben - ?..... - lever - lof... - leauwe. - belove
G: leib - liebe. - leben. - laub.. - leber - lob... - glauben - geloben

Page 1 ~ Line 1

Posted 05 November 2012 - 03:37 PM

There is something strange about the first line of page 1.
Why have I never noticed before?

The copyist made an effort to write neatly, the letters are more clear than on many later pages and also the two letters.
But the title "THET BOK THÉRA A.DEL.A.FOLSTAR" is not centered.
It is as if he started in the middle, not knowing what the title was going to be, or not realising that there would not be enough space on one line, when starting in the middle.

Abramelin, on 05 November 2012 - 05:07 PM, said:

You'd think that someone copying an existing text would know how much space he would need to write the lines down on new paper.

The title may not have been part of the original text.

Quote

It does indeed look like "FOLSTAR" was initially omitted, and then added later.

Yes it looks like it was written with a different pen or ink; the letters are thicker.
It is strange because "THET BOK THÉRA A.DEL.A" is no good Fryan; it would have been something like "THET BOK FON A.DEL.A". 

 Here is my explanation.

Just like Jan Ottema would add a title ("ADELA"), when he published his transcription and translation in 1872 on his page 1, Hidde Oera Linda may have wanted to add a title to the copy he made in 1256.

His initial idea may have been THET BOK ÁDELA.S (The Book of Adela or Adela's Book).

After having penned down the first two words (the title would have been nicely centred), he gets a better idea.

He remembers having read a title somewhere in the book, something like THET BOK THÉRA ADELA.S HELPAR.

But before writing down the last word, he gets doubts and decides to check it first.

He can't easily find it and decides to just start copying, because sooner or later he will get to the point where he read it.

Then finally... on page 91, there it is!

But FOLLISTAR does not fit and is a bit old-fashioned, so he uses an alternative: FOLSTAR.

He adds it in the space that he had left open, and since his pen is a bit worn out, the letters become a bit thicker than the other ones on page 1, that had been written with a brand new pen.

The Puzzler, on 06 November 2012 - 04:33 AM, said:

Otharus' explanation on the added FOLSTAR sounds plausible and fairly logical imo.

Abramelin, on 06 November 2012 - 05:26 AM, said:

It does indeed.

Thanks

Quote

However, if someone started adding titles to the chapters at some point in time, then how accurate were these family members at copying their chronicle?  What more has been added or deleted or changed (..to make it look less old fashioned...??)

I have always said that any copyist may have added, adapted and censored things. That is what copyists and translators tend to do.

Quote

Btw, Otharus mentioned the word HELPAR (THET BOK THÉRA ADELA.S HELPAR) or in English, 'helper'.

The usual translation for FOLSTAR or FOLLISTAR is 'follower', but it actually does mean 'helper'

Ottema (1872) and Jensma (2006) translated "helpers". Sandbach (1876) chose "followers".

I think it is just a variety of FOLGSTER, from FOLGJA (to follow).
From follower to helper (in meaning) is a small step anyway.
Besides, OLB indeed has the word HELPAR too.

"Follower" is simply closer to the original word.

Forum # 28 (nov. 1 - 15, 2012)

Posted 01 November 2012 - 10:08 AM

Bataven, kent uw spraak en heel haar overvloed! ~ Bilderdijk (1756-1831)

The tribal name, probably a derivation from batawjō ("good island", from Germanic bat- "good, excellent" and awjō "island, land near water")... (wiki/Batavi)

I am not so sure about the island part, but I would agree on BAT (Dutch: baat, bate).

Baat/ bate in Middelnederlands dictionary (oldest sources 13th century):
- benefit, advantage, profit, use, value, purpose (voordeel, nut)
- pleasure, satisfaction, gratification, approval (genoegen, plezier)
- help, assistance, aid (hulp, bijstand)
- cure, remedy (geneesmiddel, remedie)
- satisfaction, atonement, compensation (genoegdoening, compensatie)
- personal name

OLB, original text [page/line]:

[010/10]
NÀMMER LÍT HJU MÉT.AL UT JRTHA DÀLVA VMB ÀJN.BÁT
[Ottema & Sandbach p.17]
Nimmer liet zij metaal uit de aarde delven om eigen voordeel
She never allowed metal to be dug from the earth for her own benefit

[018/04]
FINDATH HJU THJU SÉKE TVIVELIK
SA MOT HJU TO BÁTA FON THÉR MÉNTE SPRÉKA
[O+S p.29]
vindt zij de zaak twijfelachtig,
zoo moet zij ten bate der gemeente spreken
[when in doubt,]
she must incline towards the side [speak in the benefit] of the community

[025/08]
ALSA MOT.ET TO MÉNA NITHA SKÉN.
MEN NÀMMER TO BÁTA FON ENKELDERA MÀNNISKA
[O+S p.39]
alsdan moet het ten gemeenen nutte geschieden,
maar nimmer ten bate van enkelde menschen
they must be for the common good,
and not for individual advantage

[027/31]
KVMTH THÉR FLÁTE TO HONK ÀND SIN THÉR BÁTA.
SA MOTON THA STJURAR THÉR.OF EN THRIMENE HÀVA
[O+S p.41]
Komt de vloot weder thuis, en zijn er baten,
dan moeten de zeelieden daarvan een derde deel hebben
If the fleet returns with profits,
the sailors may divide one-third among themselves

[029/09]
THJU MÉNTE MOT ET BÉTERA NÉI SINA STÀT.
WARA THÀT SIN FRIANDA THENE BÁTA WÉIGERJA
[O+S p.43]
de gemeente moet dat vergoeden naar zijn staat,
tenzij dat zijne vrienden dit voordeel weigeren
the community must bear the expense,
unless his friends decline to receive it [these benefits]

[040/28]
THÀT FOLK FINDA.S HETH ÁK SETMA ÀND DOMAR.
MEN THISSA NE SEND NAVT NÉI THA RJUCHT.
MEN ALLÉNA TO BATA THÉRA PRESTERA ÀND FORSTA
[O+S p.59]
Het volk van Finda heeft ook inzettingen en bepalingen,
maar deze zijn niet volgens het recht,
maar alleen ten bate van de priesters en vorsten
The people of Finda have also their rules and regulations,
but these are not made according to what is just—
only for the advantage of priests and princes

[076/07]
NÉI THÉRA FÁMNA HROP HETHER TO LESTA EN FODDIK FON HIR KRÉJEN.
THA HJU HET.IM NAVT NE BÁT
[O+S p.107]
Naar het zeggen der maagden heeft hij van haar ten laatste eene lamp gekregen;
doch zij heeft hem niet gebaat
According to the report of the maidens, he obtained a lamp from her;
but it did [has not benefitted] him no good

[089/23]
OWERS NAS THIT BOK NAVT SKRÉVEN NE WRDEN.
AFSKÉN IK ALLE HÁPE VRLÉREN HÀV THATET SKIL HELPA THA BÁTA
[O+S p.125]
anders was het boek niet geschreven geworden,
ofschoon ik alle hoop verloren heb, dat het helpen zal ten bate
otherwise this book would not have been written,
although I have lost all hope that it would be of any use

[135/05]
VNDER THESSE ARBÉD WRDON HJA GRÉV ÀND STRÀM ÉR HJA JÉRICH WÉRON
ÀND STURVON SVNDER NOCHTA AFSKÉN JRTHA THAM OVERFLODLIK FVL JÉFATH
TO BÁTA AL HJARA BERN
[O+S p.185]
Onder dezen arbeid werden zij grijs en stram eer zij oud waren
en stierven zonder genot, ofschoon de aarde dat overvloedig veel geeft
ter bate van al hare kinderen
Under this treatment they grew gray and old before their time,
and died without any enjoyment; although the earth produces abundantly
for the good of all her children

[149/18]
HO FRISO ALLE TO BIDOBBE WISTE
TO NOCHT FON BÉDE PARTJA AND TO BÁTE FON SIN ÀJN DOL
[O+S p.203]
hoe Friso allen wist te bedotten,
tot genoegen van beide partijen en ten bate van zijn eigen doel
how Friso understood deceiving everybody,
to the satisfaction of both parties, and to the accomplishment of his own ends

[189/23]
THA NE JÉF WR.ALDA THÉR NÉN MELOK IN
SA NE SKOLDON THA BERN THÉR NÉNE BÁTE BY FINDA
[O+S p.229]
Doch gaf Wralda daar geene melk in,
zoo zouden de kinderen daar geen baat bij vinden
but if Wr-alda did not give them milk
the children would find no advantage

[206/08]
THÉRVMBE HÀVON TO SÉMNE ÉNE LEST FORSONNEN THÉR VS ALLE BÁTA MOST
[O+S p.247]
Daarom hebben wij te zamen eene list verzonnen, die ons allen moest baten
Therefore, we hit upon a plan which might serve [benefit] us all

[206/21]
ÁSKAR HÉDE AL THISSA DWÁSHÉDA TO SIN BÁTA ANWENTH
ÀND THAT WILDON WI NV ÁK TO VSA BÁTA DVA
[O+S p.249]
Askar had al deze dwaasheden tot zijn voordeel aangewend,
en dat wilden wij nu ook tot ons voordeel doen
Askar had made use of all these follies for his own advantage,
and [now] we wished to do the same [to our advantage]

~
Conclusion: BAT as root for a tribe-name would make perfect sense.

Van Gorp, on 01 November 2012 - 05:47 PM, said:

So, that's what we see in it's name: Baat-haven.

Interesting Goropius, in stede of haven (harbor), I would just say have (as in to have; hebben).
Both words are even used in this fragment:

[027/31]
KVMTH THÉR FLÁTE TO HONK ÀND SIN THÉR BÁTA.
SA MOTON THA STJURAR THÉR.OF EN THRIMENE HÀVA

BÁTA.HÀVA => BÁTHÀVA => BÁTAVA => BATAVE(N) => baathebbers

=> they who have...
benefit, advantage, profit, use, value, purpose, pleasure, satisfaction, etc.

Perfect name! 

Abramelin, on 01 November 2012 - 06:38 PM, said:

So, what could the name Cananefates, a tribe closely related to the Batavians (and both split off from the Chatti tribe), mean?

I still prefer the most simple explanation (and I know it is rejected by the main stream):
KANINAFATA - konijnevatters - rabbitcatchers

OLB has one fragment with KANINA (rabbits):
[065/20]
JON THÀT IS JÉVA. WAS SÉ.KÀNING. BERN TO.T.ALDER.GÁ.
TO.T.FLÍ.MAR UT FÁREN MITH 100 ÀND 27 SKÉPUM. TOHRÉTH FÁR EN GRÁTE BUTA RÉIS.
RIK TO LÉDEN MITH BÀRNSTÉN. TIN. KÁPER. ÍSER. LÉKEN. LINNENT. FILT.
FÁMNA.FILT FON OTTER. BÉVER ÀND KANINA.HÉR.

Many fragments with FATA (to catch; Dutch: vatten), and words derived from it:
SE VMBIFATTATH THJU SKÉDNISSE FON VS ÉLE FOLK
SA HJA.RA THRVCH VS FOLK FATA DÉDON
SEND THÉR SVM THRVCH THENE FYAND FAT
THÀT MÀN THENE DÉDER FATA
THAT I HIM THÉRAN VRFATE
ÉR ER FAT WRDE
(... etcetera)

Our coastal area still houses plenty of rabbits, they are good food and have useful skins.

This explanation makes most sense to me. 

Abramelin, on 01 November 2012 - 07:12 PM, said:

The main problem is: there were no rabbits here, back then.

They were introduced by the Romans, and long after Tacitus.

How certain is that? From where did the Romans get them? What is the source for this?

It is also possible that their KANINA were not exactly the same species as our 'konijnen'.

 

Abramelin, on 01 November 2012 - 10:49 PM, said:

I knew this already in highschool.

Arguments like "everyone knows that" and "I have always known that" are invalid.

Quote

... where are the bones of these critters?
There are none to be found, not until centuries after Tacitus.

The remains of rabbits that were eaten will have been thrown into the fire, but anyway, small animalls like critters and birds don't grow bones that last very long. When left in nature they are gone within a year or two.

Were bones of other small 2000 yrs BP animals found?

 === Posted 02 November 2012 - 01:00 PM

Socrates on language in Cratylus by Plato:

Her. What do you say of pur (fire) and udor (water)?
Soc. I am at a loss how to explain pur; either the muse of Euthyphro has deserted me, or there is some very great difficulty in the word. Please, however, to note the contrivance which I adopt whenever I am in a difficulty of this sort.
Her. What is it?
Soc. I will tell you; but I should like to know first whether you can tell me what is the meaning of the pur?
Her. Indeed I cannot.
Soc. Shall I tell you what I suspect to be the true explanation of this and several other words?- My belief is that they are of foreign origin. For the Hellenes, especially those who were under the dominion of the barbarians, often borrowed from them.
Her. What is the inference?
Soc. Why, you know that any one who seeks to demonstrate the fitness of these names according to the Hellenic language, and not according to the language from which the words are derived, is rather likely to be at fault.
Her. Yes, certainly.
Soc. Well then, consider whether this pur is not foreign; for the word is not easily brought into relation with the Hellenic tongue, and the Phrygians may be observed to have the same word slightly changed, just as they have udor (water) and kunes (dogs), and many other words.
Her. That is true.
http://classics.mit....o/cratylus.html

~ ~ ~
HVND - OLB
hond - dutch
hund - german, danish, swedish, norwegian
hundur - icelandic
hound - english, westflemmish
hûn - frisian
chien - french
cane - italian
cão - portuguese
kun - greek (plato)

FJVR - OLB
feuer - german
vuur - dutch
fire - english
feu - french
fuego - spanish
fogo - portuguese
pur - greek (plato)

WÉTER - OLB
water - english, dutch
wasser - german
weeder - nordfrisian
wetter - frisian
vatn - icelandic, norwegian
vatten - swedish
vand - danish
watter - scottish
udor - greek (plato)

The way Greeks adopted 'barbarian' words is very similar to the way Indonesians adopted Dutch words.
Some make no sense when you read them, but when you hear them, they may still be recognised. 

I think I have the answer to Socrates' question...

The Timaeus makes conjectures on the composition of the four elements which some ancient Greeks thought constituted the physical universe: earth, water, air, and fire. Timaeus links each of these elements to a certain Platonic solid: the element of earth would be a cube, of air an octahedron, of water an icosahedron, and of fire a tetrahedron.
(wiki/Timaeus_dialogue)

OLB, "TEX FRYAS", page 12, line 11 (original manuscript):

FJUWER THINGA SEND TO JVWE NOT JÉVEN.
MITH NÁMA. LOFT. WÉTER. LÁND ÀND FJUR

English (Sandbach 1876):
Four things are given for your enjoyment
—air, water, land, and fire

Dutch (Ottema 1872):
Vier dingen zijn tot uw genot gegeven,
met name lucht, water, land en vuur

Note how, in the OLB language, fire seems to have been derived from four.

In geometry, a tetrahedron (plural: tetrahedra) is a polyhedron composed of four triangular faces, three of which meet at each vertex.
(wiki/Tetrahedron)  

======

This is not a complete list, but it provides a good idea of varieties of the word for rabbit:

kinnen - scottish
kanínur - icelandic
kaniner - swedish
kanin - german, norwegian, danish
kniende - nethersaxon
knoin - westfrisian
konijn - dutch
k(e)nyn - frisian
keun - westflemmish

coniglio - italian
cuniculus - latin
kounéli - greek

conill - catalan
conejo - spanish
coelho - portuguese

The map makes it more visual:

Van Gorp, on 02 November 2012 - 08:58 PM, said:

Lapin, possibility is again loop-in
... as with gaen-in, kan-in -> kanin, konijn

Yes, I agree, that makes sense.
Thanks VG.
(maar voor kan-in zou ik de tussenstap gaan weglaten; hij kan erin, loopt erin)

From: A Dictionary of English Etymology by Hensleigh Wedgwood (1872)

abbreviations:
Boh. - Bohemian or Czech.
Dief. - Diefenbach (Gothischen Sprache 1851)
Du. - Dutch
G. - German
It. - Italian
Kil. - Kiliaan (Teutonic-Latin dictionary 1599)
Lat. Latin
N. - Norwegian or Norse
ON. - Old Norse, Icelandic
W. - Welsh 

=== Posted 03 November 2012 - 12:03 PM
Browsing through the Dictionary of English Etymology (Hensleigh Wedgwood, 1872), I found something noteworthy, possibly related to the notorious two-letter-word (OD).

 ... a point... sticking up?!
I can see how that will have made the three primal mothers pregnant.

=== Posted 04 November 2012 - 09:49 PM

Variety in spelling and diction between the letters of Hidde (1256 CE) and Liko (803 CE) Over de Linden.

First attempt in trying to figure out the pronunciation of vowels in OLB.

At second thought I think the sound here is more like Dutch "ruzie" en "juni".
For vowel chart with audio, go here: http://en.wikipedia....hart_with_audio

 THV will probably be like the German "du" and the English "you".

This is an example of 'Fryan' being sometimes less similar to Dutch (je, jij) or Frisian (do), than to other NW-European languages.

Added 23-10-2013:

=== Posted 05 November 2012 - 11:28 AM

Van Gorp, on 03 November 2012 - 11:05 AM, said:

Vuur-Phur: brandschoon, pure (see burning ritual for cleansing), zuiver, sauber, super pure.

Along with the swastika (symbol of the sun, and the sun burns -> see burning wheel) we can see in that symbol 4 times 4. The 4 pure elements.
If we see that purusha is the unlimited conscience of the burning flame within, it is clear for me that vier-vuur-phuur (four-fire-pure) are related.

Pyro-maan, vuure-man.

On top, if we take pride-> zijn we fier -> we glimmen -> and vieren (celebrating) was done around the fire

Yes to me the fire - pure (πυρά ~ πυρ) connection is obvious too.
It is shocking that official etymologists don't seem to acknowledge this.

http://www.etymologi.../trefwoord/puur
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pure

Van Gorp, on 03 November 2012 - 06:36 PM, said:

About Dutch/Flemish: indeed a pitty that the 'Algemeen Bijgeschaafd Nederlands' was inforced to diminish the local dialects, but they still exists and some sound pretty much as OLB.

Exactly!
Latin has been a lingua 'franca', later Frankish/ French and now it's English.

The good thing is, that after the empires collapse, people will not like to speak that language any more and use their own dialects again, although some new words may stay as souvenirs, while some old words will have been lost.

  

Van Gorp, on 03 November 2012 - 08:44 PM, said:

For the replacements: that doesn't explain for example the deplaced/double story of Willebrord and the veneration of him in North of France.
Either he entered in Holland or in North of France.
And boarding in Holland to go lateron to the south (where the crossing of the channel was much easier) does not make any sense.

Exactly!

At the other hand, the Dutch rivers go very deep inland...
The low lands are a river delta. 

Van Gorp, on 04 November 2012 - 12:29 AM, said:

A possibility concerning the Caninefates which comes into my mind, and connection to KANINA and 'konijnen' could be as follows.

Root "Kan" (like in Latin "canna", Spanish "cañón", kano, kanaal, Can-yon, think 'kenien' in our dialect :-) is just pointing to a long hollow tube.
This is prety obvious i think, hence also the name for animals doing just that.

Btw canis: idem dito, hondje in zijn rieten mandje (kanneke) :-)

That totally makes sense!
Small dogs were used to enter fox- and rabbit- holes etc.

Latin: caninus and Old-German: kaninisk = doggish, dog-like

 

Abramelin, on 04 November 2012 - 03:42 PM, said:

Back to the Batavians: could their name not mean something like 'warriors'?
Here's why:
... Baduhenna appears to be a goddess of war
... Germanic *badwa-, battle
... O.E. beatan "inflict blows on, thrash"
... battle (n.) c.1300, from O.Fr. bataille
... batter (v.) "strike repeatedly, beat violently and rapidly,"
... bat (n.1) "a stick, a club,"
... Batavi as the bravest of the tribes of the area, hardened in the Germanic wars

First of all, the best names are ambiguous ones, ones that have several meanings.

But this one indeed makes much sense too me, and I was also thinking about Boudicca, a queen who lead a war against the Romans.

When at war, the fighters need a strong name to scream, something that gives them power.
Similar is why Wodin, Wotan is a good name for war; it has "wut" (dutch woede; rage anger) in it. 

Van Gorp, on 04 November 2012 - 11:20 PM, said:

Is it correct that all the dates of the tales mentionned are derived from the date Atland was sunken (being 2193 BC, mentionned once by Hidde in 1256 AD)?

Yes it is the only time two counting systems are combined.
That it will at least roughly be right, can be seen from other stories, for example Buda/Yes-us (6th C. BCE), Alexander (ca. 300 BCE). 

=== Posted 05 November 2012 - 03:15 PM

OK, you convinced me that the CF were no rabbit or hare hunters.

VG pointed out that CAN* can be related to channel (Dutch: kanaal, gracht, sloot).

The low lands were swampy and in order to make the land dry, channels were dug out, which was also very helpful for transportation.
The Netherlands are well known for their waterworks.

Combined with the French verb "faire" (to do, make), I can imagine a word like CAN..FAT.. meaning something channel-diggers.

An peculiar activity of the area.

As for the KANINA-skins in the JON story (plm. 1600 BCE); this may refer to polecats, weasels, hares, or ...?
The article does not say there were no hares, just that not much was found of them.

Since even in Roman times there seems to have been confusion about dogs and rabbits, because of the similar terms (agreeably having to do with the ability to go in holes), the name may not have been used for rabbits alone in JON's time. The furs of all those rodents tend to be soft. 

Abramelin, on 05 November 2012 - 05:01 PM, said:

If the Cananefates dug their own channels, the Romans would not have needed to dig their own

I don't agree.

The Romans will have needed channels to supply their armies and other strategic purposes, while the CF may have made ones primarily to have dry land to live and farm on.

Quote

We are talking about channels, not ditches, and about the land of the Cananefates, not the whole of the Netherlands.

1. Who says smaller channels and ditches would not have been known as CAN* (whatever old term that evolved into our "kanaal")?

2. If the CF made many ditches and were named after that activity, that does not impy that they were the only ones making ditches, or that they only made ditches.

People can be named "Van Dijk" without living near a dike, while others can live there, without having that name.

Abramelin, on 05 November 2012 - 05:18 PM, said:

Maybe we all are focusing a bit too much on the Batavii amd the Cananefates.

Every time the OLB-language helps inspire plausible explanations for names like these, it adds to its credibility and value.

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Abramelin, on 05 November 2012 - 05:53 PM, said:

Previous research by the RMO showed that the garnets in the fibulae from Rhenen came from India and Pakistan.
...
But this is about jewelry from the early middle ages...not from a millenium of more BC.
...
The seventh century goldsmith who made the famous cloak pin of Wijnaldum​​, took his precious stones from India.

Yes I read that too last week or so.
Precious stones and metals may have been used and re-used for thousands of years.

If Friso and the 'Gér(t)man(n)a' from NW-India indeed arrived in NW-Europe after Alexander's fall, they would have brought precious things like that.

Part of their treasures will have been recycled up till today.
I have no words to describe the silver-art that I saw last year in the Frisian Museum in Ljouwert.
They must have had a very old tradition.
(I have seen many similar exhibitions all over the world.)

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Abramelin, on 06 November 2012 - 04:05 AM, said:

If the CF had dug ditches or canals to drain their land, we would have found traces of them, even now.

I'm sure we have. Terps and hill-forts were built here too. These lands are only habitable with some sort of water management.

Quote

If CAN means ditch or canal, what does CANAN or CANIN or CANNIN mean?

Plural.

Quote

IF CAN in Cananefates does indeed mean ditch, canal or waterway, then their name hints at their main occupation: digging canals and so on.

So do Sé-kampar, Lith-hawar, Wit-kénings, Juttar, Anglar, Hér-lju, Sturii, etc.

Quote

You cannot compare the way they received their names with how we receive our (family) names now. The surnames we have now originated in Napoleontic times: everybody received a family name, based on profession, habit, physical characteristic and so on. These surnames were passed on to next generations: even if your profession wasn't a butcher, you still inherited that name, Butcher, from your ancestors.

Naming is done by law since 1811, but many families had used the same name for many hundreds of years before that.
My own family name has been used as such for over a 1000 years (origin Switzerland/ Austria/ S-Germany). 

 

Abramelin, on 06 November 2012 - 04:13 AM, said:

Unless you want to stick the the Batavi being 'masters', or the 'better ones' and the Cananefates being 'rabbit catchers'.

I would never stick to one meaning. As I said before, the best names are ambiguous ones.

BTW, Kaninafata can still mean Coneycatchers even when they did not catch a single rabbit in the Dutch dunes. They may have lived in Iberia for a while before they migrated north to resettle.

Or... the coney - cunny ambiguity may already have existed back then.
Of course it did; cunnilingus is Latin too.

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Abramelin, on 07 November 2012 - 08:23 AM, said:

eleven
c.1200, elleovene, from O.E. endleofan, lit. "one left" (over ten), from P.Gmc. *ainlif- (cf. O.S. elleban, O.Fris. andlova, Du. elf, O.H.G. einlif, Ger. elf, O.N. ellifu, Goth. ainlif), a compound of *ain "one" (see one) + PIE *leikw- "leave, remain" (cf. Gk. leipein "to leave behind;" see relinquish).

Great, Abe.
Silly me, to forget about E-leven ("leven" in Dutch is life or to live), when 2-LIF is twelve.

And now we can reconstruct what 11 might have been spelled in Fryan: ENLIF or ÉNLIF (in modern Dutch: elf).

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lilthor, on 07 November 2012 - 09:07 PM, said:

So Over de Linden may have descended from an ancient lineage of paper-makers.
Possibly giving them a key role in creating and keeping written records of all types.
And making plausible the idea that this family would be inclined to pass along written keepsakes between generations.

Abramelin:

It might be, yes. Up to a couple of years ago there still was an Over de Linden printing house in Enkhuizen.
Well, I got inspired by Otharus 'Liber', and then things started rolling, lol.
I really never thought of lime bark/bast as a source for paper, but linden/lime trees must have been quite abundant in the ancient Low Lands before we started cutting them all down.

Otharus:

Neither did I.
Valuable finds, Abe.
Wonderful how we inspire each other here. 

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Abramelin, on 12 November 2012 - 10:33 AM, said:

OK, suppose Delahaye will be proven right, and that Dutch historical events and places between around 200 and 1000 CE were actually  events and place in Belgium and Northern France, then you please tell me how that would prove the OLB narrative which was first put onto paper in the 6th century BCE. a story that ended somewhere in the first decade BCE.

It would put the so called Frisian 'fantastic' historiography (Van Scharle and others) in a different light, which would put the OLB in a different light.

Abramelin, on 12 November 2012 - 03:06 PM, said:

Can you give one example of how that would change the way we now view the works of many Frisian historiographers?

Good question.
Yes, I think I can give several examples.
Because this is a very important issue, I will take some time to collect the exact references. 

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Van Gorp, on 13 November 2012 - 10:15 PM, said:

Engelen hangen ook in de lucht.
Romains/Greeks pronounced it quite well: Angelus/Angelos: Hangel-Is.

As not unusually, OLB made me a suggestion to an etymology, more plausible than all existing ones.

[001/19]
THAT IK NÉN MODER NÉSA NAVT NILDE
THRVCHDAM IK APOL TO MIN ÉNGÁ JÉRDE
=> znw. letterlijk: enige; betekenis: wederhelft

[009/05]
AN STILNISE NE WÉNADON HJA NÉNEN ÉNGE TÁR
=> bnw. enige

[033/02]
IS THÉR ENG KWÁD DÉN [...]
=> bnw. enig

[041/18]
IS HWA FIF ÀND TVINTICH ÀND HETH ER NÉN ÉNGÁ
SÁ ACH EK MAN HIM UT SIN HUS TO WÉRANE
[...] NIMTH ER THÀN NACH NÉN ÉNGÁ [...]
=> znw. letterlijk: enige; betekenis: wederhelft

[042/03]
SAHWERSA ÀMMAN ENG GOD THETH (HETH) [...]
=> bnw. enig

[051/22]
THA PRESTERA SEND THA ENGOSTA HÉRA
=> bnw. enigste

[096/20]
ADELA IS THET ENGE BERN VSAR GRÉVET.MAN
=> bnw. enige

[102/14]
THERVMBE NE MÉI JRTHA SELVA NER ENG SKEPSLE NI SEDSA IK BEN
=> bnw. enig

[199/03]
SKÉPON THÉR HJA RÁVED HÀVE IS HJARA ÉNGE SKÀT
=> bnw. enige

~ ~ ~
http://gtb.inl.nl/iW...b=ONW&id=ID2315

Tho sprag sancta Maria zo themo eingele so geheren.
nu woldik thaz the apostoli hir waren.
That se min plégen. ande min ende gesâgen.
Toen sprak de heilige Maria tot de zo voortreffelijke engel:
"Nu zou ik willen dat de apostelen hier waren,
opdat ze mij verzorgen en mijn levenseinde aanschouwen.".
Mfr.Reimb. A, r. 455 Werden, Essen?, Noord-Oost Nederland, 1151-1200.

Tho her theses líues solde gewandelen,
tho wart sin sîele unt fangen uan godes êngelen.
Toen hij (t.w. Lazarus) moest sterven,
werd zijn ziel ontvangen door Gods engelen.
Mfr.Reimb. A, r. 685 Werden, Essen?, Noord-Oost Nederland, 1151-1200.

 

Van Gorp, on 13 November 2012 - 11:14 PM, said:

do you mean you sea also a meaning in Eng-elen as the 'only ones' (a bit like the choosen ones?, not the whole lot but the particular, enige-n, the ap-pointed ones)

Yes, something like that.

Quote

'eng' also meaning 'nauw' -> like in being/having be-nauwd when you feel narrowed/enclosed/fixed?

I noticed that (in OLB) ENG / ÉNG in the meaning of "enig" (only) is consequently spelled with N+G (separate letters), while ENG in the meaning of "nauw" (narrow) is spelled with the special NG (single) letter. 

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Abramelin, on 14 November 2012 - 10:42 AM, said:

OK, I see it on Vandemaele's map

Before the Kelts, Gauls and Romans became a serious threat, this will have been a more strategic area.
The northern Netherlands were also inhabited at (old) times, but mostly by farmers it seems.
In France and Belgium many (royal?) burial mounds were found from the iron age.
With the Romans and later the Franks moving ever more north, specially the (cultural) elite will have fled to what is now the northern NL (and possibly to Scandinavia, Scotland and Russia?).

As for the chronicle by Okko van Scharl:
It was edited and re-issued by Johannes Vlytarp, and again in 1742 by Andreas van Staveren (printed by Abraham Ferwerda in Ljouwert).
For van Staveren and Ferwerda it was business, just like Hollywood movies today.
They will have wanted to please (wealthy) crowds and they will have avoided to offend the church.
Van Staveren, Vlytarp, Van Skarl and their predecessors will all have edited parts.
They may have interpreted and moved certain stories north (consciously or not).
One has to take everything with a pinch of salt, but that does not mean that all is merely worthless fantasy.

After having read Wilkens' book on Troy, it became perfectly clear to me how the Troy story ended up in Greece, creating much confusion.
Similar things may have happened here.