FRYSKEDNIS ~ alternative Frisian & Fryan history

Mothers

2012-03-07T02:26:00.001-08:00

My mother's mother's mother and her mother:

standing, second from right:
Dina Maria Kistemaker (1881-1949) Oudesluis (NH), married 1902 to Klaas Paarlberg (1876-1972)

and

sitting, second from right:
Maartje Dekker (1847-1937) Schagen (NH), married 1868 to Klaas Kistemaker (1844-1932),
daughter of
Maartje Eriks (1813-1890) Schagen,
daughter of
Trijntje Krabman (1787?-1823) Schagen, Sint Maarten (NH),
daughter of
Maartje Bras (?-?) Barsingerhorn? (NH), married to Floris Krabman (Krapman)

Maartje Bras is also the g-g-g-g-g-g-g-mother of Angelina Jolie Voight (1975)

Hans Brinker

2012-03-03T05:33:00.001-08:00

Hans Brinker saves Holland by putting his thumb in the Dyke

performance by Jan Cremer near Volendam, 1970

Mankearde Sot

2012-03-02T11:34:00.004-08:00

in preparation:

2012-02-14T10:07:00.000-08:00

best of UM-forum posts, sorted by theme/ subject

UM Forum posts ~ part 19 (january 12 to february 9, 2012)

2012-02-09T13:53:00.000-08:00

Posted 12 January 2012 - 12:18 AM

For the record, an essential translating error by Ottema (1876), copied by Sandbach (1876) and Raubenheimer (2011).

Context:
The Denamarka were occupied by the Magí (1602 after Aldland had sank) and the Mother didn't want them back, because the people there would already have been bastardised and wasted.

OLB, original manuscript [page 079/ line 18]
THJU MODER NILDET NAVT WÉR.HA

Dutch: Ottema p.111
De Moeder wilde het niet ~~weren~~

English: Sandbach p.111; Raubenheimer (2nd edition, 2011) p.369
The mother would not ~~prevent~~ it

Correct translation:

Dutch: De Moeder wilde het niet weer (=terug) hebben

English: The Mother didn't want to have it back

######

Posted 12 January 2012 - 09:48 AM

Knul, on 12 January 2012 - 07:16 AM, said:
I think Dutch weer (again, back) = whither. So the sentence would read: thju moder nildet wither ha.On the other hand Dutch weren = wera. Are there other possibilities ? I think of the meaning [ge]weren = ergens mee instemmen, akkoord gaan, Eng. to agree, German gewaehren, billigen, eiverstanden sein.

WITHER and WÉR are both used in that meaning.

In other fragments WÉR also means again/back:

[067/22]
WILST WÉR FRY WÉSA ÀND VNDER MINA RÉD ÀND HODA LÉVA. TJÀN UT THEN. WÉPNE SKILUN THI WRDA. ÀND IK SKIL WÁKA O.ER THI.
Do you want to be free again... (etc.)

[153/09]
THÉRVMBE NIL HI NÉNE MODER WÉR HÁ
Therefore he doesn't want to have a mother back/again

WÉR is a multifunctional word as it can also mean:

- "was"; the past tense singular of "to be" (german: war)
- the root of "to defend" (dutch: weer)
- where (dutch: waar)
- true (dutch: waar)
- in expression INA WÉR; busy (dutch: in de weer)

From the context, it's clear that in the fragment I posted, it means back/again twice.

######

Posted 13 January 2012 - 04:48 PM

Knul, on 12 January 2012 - 10:55 PM, said:
I was bothered about the dot in the word wêr.ha as it should indicate a single word or verb, because this dot does not indicate the end of a sentence.
The verb could be wêr.ha = waarhebben, Eng. acknowledge, accept, agree with.
Otharus did not comment on this.
The matter has been discussed before and then I accepted Otharus view, but now there is some doubt.
In the example 153/09 lacks the dot.

Dots are not always used consequently in the text, in fact, the spelling has much variety anyway.

In my opinion, the dot here can mean two things:

- the copyist wrote the words too closely together and decided to seperate them with a dot
- the combination was indeed used as a seperable verb (samengesteld werkwoord); weer-hebben = weer-krijgen = terug-krijgen (like weer-spreken, weg-lopen etc.)

Anyway, from the context, it's quite obvious (imo) that the sentence says that the Mother didn't want to have the Denmarks back.

######

Posted 17 January 2012 - 09:05 AM

It is an interesting observation that "again" and "against" are related to "wér", "weer", "with", "wither", "wether", "weder, "wieder" etc., but in the four fragments I gave , "WÉR" means "back" or "again".

Here they are for the last time.

[067/22]
WILST WÉR FRY WÉSA ÀND VNDER MINA RÉD ÀND HODA LÉVA. TJÀN UT THEN. WÉPNE SKILUN THI WRDA. ÀND IK SKIL WÁKA O.ER THI.
Do you want to be free again... (etc.)

[079/18]
THJU MODER NILDET NAVT WÉR.HA
The Mother didn't want to have it back

[079/19]
IK SJA NÉN FRÉSE AN SINA WÉPNE MEN WEL VMBE THA SKÉNLANDER WÉR TO NIMMANDE THRVCH DAM HJA BASTERED ÀND VRDÉREN SIND
I see no fear in his weapons, but in taking the Skénlander back, because they are bastardised and wasted.

[153/09]
THÉRVMBE NIL HI NÉNE MODER WÉR HÁ
Therefore he doesn't want to have a mother back

######

Posted 17 January 2012 - 10:44 AM

Alewyn, on 13 July 2010 - 01:54 PM, said:
In my book I also came to the conclusion that "Phrygia" was most likely a derivative of "Frya" but I did not know about the Bruges and this Egyptian king.

Otharus, on 18 December 2010 - 07:28 AM, said:
Earlier in the OLB/Tsunami thread, it was suggested that the PHRYGIANS may have been the FRYAS of the OLB.

In this context, it's noteworthy that Lucius Apuleius (Metamorphoses, ca. 180 AD) calls them "PRIMIGENII",
translated as "first-born of mankind" by E.J. Kenney (1998).

PRIMIGENII PHRYGES PESSINVNTIAM DEVM MATREM

The Phrygians, first-born of mankind, call me the Pessinuntian Mother of the gods

It is significant that the term "frieze" (in architecture/ art) - in Dutch: "fries" - is accepted to be derived from "opus phrygium" (Phrygian work).

http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/frieze

frieze

Pronunciation: /friːz/
noun
a broad horizontal band of sculpted or painted decoration, especially on a wall near the ceiling:
the horsemen of the Parthenon frieze

figurative
the coastline is a frieze of cliffs
- a horizontal paper strip mounted on a wall to give an effect similar to that of a sculpted or painted frieze:
a wallpaper frieze with chickens on it
- Architecture the part of an entablature between the architrave and the cornice.

Origin:
mid 16th century: from French frise, from medieval Latin frisium, variant of frigium, from Latin Phrygium (opus) '(work) of Phrygia'

######

Posted 17 January 2012 - 10:50 AM

Abramelin, on 17 January 2012 - 10:15 AM, said:
Now, with too late you mean too young to be used for the OLB because the OLB uses a 4000 years old language.

If OLB is what it says it is, it's a 13th century copy of a 9th century copy of older original(s).
The first version would have been compiled in the 6th century BC.

That is ca. 2600 BP.

It is possible that the language had not changed much between 4200 BP and 2600 BP (as the Fryans liked to believe), but we can only guess if that is true.

######

Posted 17 January 2012 - 03:19 PM

The Puzzler, on 17 January 2012 - 01:46 PM, said:
vispa-: "all".[49] (as in Avestan). The component appears in such words as vispafryā (Med. fem.) "dear to all", vispatarva- (med.) "vanquishing all", vispavada- (med. -op.) "leader of all", etc.

Aha, so "fryā" meant "dear to ..." in that word.

Interesting.

######

Posted 18 January 2012 - 10:46 AM

Knul, on 17 January 2012 - 09:21 PM, said:
Jesterdêi wêron-er mong jo tham allet folk to hâpa hropa wilde vmb tha âstlike stâta wither to hjara plyga to tvangande.
The tekst reads: to hare wopa.
Hare should be hjara
I would translate: tot hun wapenen, te wapen

In the transliteration by Ottema that you quoted, WOPA indeed was changed into HROPA. Ottema must have assumed a copyist error.
He was wrong. Hettema's dictionary has:

Wopa, woapje, alarm roepen, geschreeuw maken, noodschreijen. W.130.
English: call/ cry alarm

It is not clear if the word before WOPA is spelled HÁPE or HÁRE, but it must be HÁPE as that word is more often used (also as HÁPA) in a similar context.

First, the fragment under discussion, with various translations, then other relevant fragments to compare.

[003/20]
JESTERDÉI WÉRON.ER MONG JO THAM ALLET FOLK TO HÁPE WOPA WILDE VMB THA ÁSTLIKA STÁTA WITHER TO HJARA PLYGA TO TVANGANDE.
Yesterday there were among you that wanted to 'call all people to heaps' (gather and prepare them for battle), to force the eastern states (back) to their (old) habits.

[Ottema p.8]
Gisteren waren er onder u, die al het volk te hoop roepen wilden om de oostelijke Staten weder tot hare plicht te dwingen.

[Jensma p.77]
Gisteren waren er onder u, die al het volk te hoop wilden roepen om de oostelijke staten weer tot hun gewoonten te dwingen.

[Sandbach p.8]
Yesterday there were among you those who would have called the whole people together, to compel the eastern states to return to their duty.

- - - - - -

Other fragments with the word HÁPA/ HÁPE in a similar context:

[037/26]
NV SKOLDE ÀJDER WÁNA THÀT HJA VRAL.ET FOLK TO HÁPE HWOPN* HÉDE VMBE VS ALGADUR TO.T.LAND UT TO DRIWANDE.
(* a letter, probably E is added between O and P, but should more likely have been placed between P and N)

[Ottema p.55 (Jensma has similar translation)]
Nu zoude ieder wanen dat zij overal het volk te hoop geroepen hadden, om ons allen te zamen het land uit te drijven.

[Sandbach p.55]
one would have thought that they would have called all the people together to drive us out of the land

[066/11]
THA STRÁMADA THÀT OR.A SKELDA FOLK TO HÁPA.
Then the 'Ora Skelda' (Over de Scheldt) people 'streamed to heaps' (prepared for battle).

[Ottema p.93]
Toen stroomde het andere Schelda volk te hoop.

[Jensma p.203]
Toen stroomde het Over de Schelde-volk te hoop.

[Sandbach p.93]
Then the other Schelda people poured out towards her.

[195/22]
MEN NW HLIP ALLET ÔRA FOLK TO HÁPE ÀND THA RIKA WÉRON BLÍDE THAT HJA HÉL HÚDIS FON THÉRE ACHT OF KÉMON.
but now all other people revolted and the rich were glad... (etc.)

[Ottema p.235 (Jensma has similar translation)]
maar nu liep al het andere volk te hoop, en de rijken waren blijde dat zij heelhuids van de vergadering afkwamen.

[Sandbach p.235]
so all the people rose up, and the rich were glad to get out of the assembly with whole skins.

- - - - - -

The Dutch expression "te hoop lopen" means: "in opstand komen" (source: http://nl.wikiquote.org/wiki/Nederlandstalige_gezegden ); to revolt.
(In the time of the VOC (Dutch United East India Company), the term "hooploper" was used for young sailor's assistants (lichtmatroos).)

Conclusion:
I don't agree that the word is HARE and should be HJARA. It is HÁPE.
WOPA is a known Oldfrisian word.

######

Posted 18 January 2012 - 11:35 AM

Knul, on 17 January 2012 - 09:21 PM, said:
OLB words and expressions are simply pseudo Oldfrisian calques of modern mid-19th century Dutch words and expressions, occasionally modern English (like bedrum-bedroom) and modern Frisian (like tobek = terug)

It's not that obvious at all. We don't know how old those words are. BED (the root) and RUM are both known Oldfrisian words. We don't know if BEDRUM means the same as our bedroom. It can also mean praying- or offering-room (from: beden = bidden, bieden).

Quote
the word order in the OLB is completely the Dutch word order (e.g. nei min ynfalda myning - naar mijn eenvoudige mening).

Not only the Dutch word-order, but also the Frisian word-order. If word-order does not change much in a 1000 years, why would it have changed so much in 2000 years or more?

Quote
the juulscript transcription contains many errors (like svnvm instaed of svna, ending -on instead of -en)

We don't know if these are errors, but if they were, what would this prove?

######

Posted 18 January 2012 - 11:41 AM

Knul, on 17 January 2012 - 09:21 PM, said:
modern Frisian (like tobek = terug)

TO and BEK are both known Oldfrisian words, that can easily have been used in this combination.

See Richthofen's dictionary.

######

Posted 18 January 2012 - 12:51 PM

Abramelin, on 18 January 2012 - 12:32 PM, said:
In general it can be said that ‘Runic Frisian’ cannot be analysed very well with the help of existing grammars and descriptions of Old Frisian [...] since they merely describe ‘Manuscript Old Frisian’ of much later centuries..

By all means interesting, those runes and their language, but I think it is a mistake to call them 'runic Frisian', and to assume that this language would be the main ancestor of the Oldfrisian from the medieval sources.

The find of "makia" = sword is very interesting indeed.

######

Posted 18 January 2012 - 01:37 PM

Abramelin, on 18 January 2012 - 01:00 PM, said:
Those runes are from around the period Liko & Hiddo wrote their texts in the OLB, so one should expect both languages would look very similar.

Why? You think all people who lived in that region spoke and wrote the same (and only one) language?

######

Posted 19 January 2012 - 10:48 AM

"Het is alleszins de moeite waard van het OLB, als van een echte geschiedbron, kennis te nemen,
indien men zich voor de oude vaderlandse geschiedenis interesseert.

Het is bovendien de moeite waard, de methodes, waarmee het HS in de loop van ruim 100 jaar
werd verguisd en het publiek gedesinformeerd, aan een nader onderzoek te onderwerpen,
indien men zich voor zuivere denk-en discussiemethodes interesseert.

Tenslotte is het altijd de moeite waard, de reputatie van achtenswaardige lieden,
die ten onrechte voor falsificateur of mystificateur gehouden zijn, te repareren,
indien men de normen van het maatschappelijk verkeer wil hooghouden."

- - - - - -

(inprovised translation)

"It is by all means worth the effort,
to learn from the OLB, as if it were a real historical source,
if one is interested in old history.

Above that it is worth the effort,
to research the methods used in over a 100 years,
to revile the manuscript and disinform the public,
if one is interested in pure methods of thinking and discussing.

Ultimately it is always worth the effort,
to repair the reputation of respectable people,
that have been falsely accused of being forgers and lyars,
if one wants to uphold a society of high ethical values."

- - - - - -

's-Gravenhage, 5 September 1989.

Mr. N. Luitse

Conclusion of OLB-Lecture for a society in The Hague.

######

Posted 19 January 2012 - 11:59 AM

Yesterday at Tresoar, the Frisian archive of treasures, I read some of the letters that Cornelis Over de Linden wrote to Jan Ottema.

It is clear to me that these gentlemen trusted and respected eachother.

If the manuscript was a forgery, and Over de Linden was one of the forgerers, he has not just lied to Ottema; he would have ruined Ottema's carreer and life in a most heartbreakingly evil way.

This is utterly unlikely.

Cornelis Over de Linden was a good man.

I suspect him of one little lie only:
He had not received the manuscript from his aunt Aafje, but got or took it from her daughter, his cousin Cornelia Kofman-Reuvers.

######

Posted 19 January 2012 - 02:58 PM

How sardonic is this?

Before he translated and published the OLB, Dr. J.G. Ottema was secretary of the Frisian Society for History, Archaeology and Linguistics (Friesch Genootschap van Geschied-, Oudheid- en Taalkunde).

As the editor of an 1852 publication from this society, 'Die Olde Freesche Cronike - Gesta Frisiorum - M. Alvini Tractatus', he stated that 'Gesta Fresonum' and 'Thet Freske Riim' had to be derived from 'Die olde Freesche Cronike' and 'Tractatus Alvini' respectively.

Furthermore, he suggested that both 'Gesta Fresonum' and 'Thet Freske Riim' were "nothing but linguistic exercises and own fabrication by Simon Abes Gabbema, that he had handed over to his friend [Franciscus] Junius, as if they were most important memorials of antiquity."

Original quote:
"... niet anders zijn, dan proeven van taalstudie en eigen fabrikaat van Simon Abes Gabbema, die hij zijnen vriend [Franciscus] Junius voor hoogst belangrijke gedenkstukken der oudheid in handen gestopt heeft."

Source (p.203):
http://books.google.nl/books?id=Ots_AAAAYAAJ&dq=%22freske%20riim%22%20alvinus&hl=nl&pg=PA189#v=onepage&q=%22freske%20riim%22%20alvinus&f=false

######

Posted 19 January 2012 - 03:25 PM

Abramelin, on 19 January 2012 - 03:13 PM, said:
Lol, so our mr. Halbertsma maybe really did have a reason to get 'even' with Ottema?

Both the Halbertsma and the Haverschmidt hoax-theory only work if one assumes that Cornelis Over de Linden was a most evil liar.

It is a mystery to me how Jensma, who has read COL's letters and diaries, could come to this inconceivable conclusion.

######

Posted 19 January 2012 - 11:35 PM

Otharus, on 11 February 2011 - 04:00 PM, said:
"ALVINUS (Magister) was head of the Latin school in Sneek ca. 1400, and secretary of town respectively. [...]

Statement: Alvinus = Alcuinus

I suspect that the author of the original text that was the source for "Thet Freske Riim" and "Tractatus Alvini" was not Magister Alvinus who was rector of the Latin School in Sneek ca. 1400 (as Suffridus Petri believed), but Alcuin of York (Latin: Alcuinus) or Ealhwine (ca.735-804).

Latin poem by Alcuinus (with Dutch translation by Kees Smit)

CARTULA PERGE CITO PELAGI TRANS EQORA CORSU
Briefje, zet snel koers over de grote zee,

OSTIA PISCOSI FLARIS PETE FORTIA RHENI
Zeil voor de wind naar de monding van de visrijke Rijn,

INGREDIENS RAPIDIS PONTUM QUA VOLVITUR UNDIS
Vaar door de branding en de kolkende golven.

TUM TUA PRELONGO DUCATUR PRORA REMULCO
De voorsteven moet aan een lang touw meegesleept worden,

NE CITO RETRORSUM RAPIATUR FLUMINE PUPPIS
anders grijpt de tegenstroom de achtersteven.

SI MEUS ALBRICUS VENIENS OCCURAT IN AMNE
Als mijn vriend Alberik je tegemoet komt op de kade

VACCI POTENS PRAESUL PROPERANS TU DICITO SALVE
De bisschop van het weidegebied, zeg dan gauw 'Gegroet',

NAM TIBI HADDA PRIOR NOCTE NON AMPLIUS UNA
Want zijn prior Haddo zal jou niet meer dan één avond

IN TRAIECT MEL COMPULTIMQUE BUTURQUE MINISTRAT
in Trecht een bord pap voorzetten met honing en boter,

UT PUTE NON OLEUM NEC VINUM FRESIA FUNDIT
Tja, Friezenland produceert geen olijfolie of wijn.

HINC TUA VELA LEVA FUGIENS DORSTADA RELINQUE
Hijs nu het zeil en laat Dorestad links liggen.

NON TIBI FORTE NIGER HROTBERCT PARAT HOSPITA TECTA
Ik denk niet dat die norse Robrecht je onderdak verleent,

NON AMAT ECCE TUUM CARMEN MERCATOR AVARUS
Want weet je, die gierige koopman is niet op jouw lied gesteld.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcuin

######

Posted 19 January 2012 - 11:52 PM

HIR BIJINT THAT FRYSKE RYM

IK SKOLDE SEGZA JEF IK KVDE
HO DI FRYDOM ÉROST BIGVDE

THA THJV WRALD ÉROST DEDE FORGAN
AND THJV OTHER DEDE INGAN

ALDVS BISKRIVET ALWYN
THI MASTER IN THA BOKA SYN

THA THI FLODE DEDE OPGAN
AND DEDET ALLE FORSLAN

THER THJV WRALD HEDE BIFAN
BÉDE WIF AND MAN

... andsofort

######

Posted 20 January 2012 - 09:44 AM

I changed and finished Abe's English translation:

Little letter, set course to the wide ocean.

Sail with the wind to the mouth of the fishrich Rhine.
Sail through the surf and the swirling waves.

The prow must be dragged along a long rope,
or else the counter current will get the stern.

When my friend Albrikus meets you on the quay,
The bisshop of the meadows, then quickly say "Bye!",
as his prior Haddo will not feed you more than one night
porridge with honey and butter in Traiect.

Alas, Fresia does not produce olive oil or whine.

Set sail and ignore Dorstada.
I don't think grim Rotbercht will invite you,
as, you see, that stingy merchant will not like your song.

What it proves is there was a route from:

Mouth of RHENI => FRESIA; TRAIECT (bishop Alberik, prior Haddo) => DORSTADA (merchant Robrecht)

... and that people ate porridge with honey and butter.

######

Posted 21 January 2012 - 09:22 AM

To be read on the church of Wommels in Fryslân, next to the graveyard:

Hier is Geschiet een Rechtveerdich recht
die heer lecht hier al bij den Knecht hier
lecht den aermen al bij den Ricke den Leeleke
al bij den suiverlicke hier lecht den buer al bij den
Eedelman de Geleerde al bij die niet en kan hier
lecht de sot al bij den Wijse den longe al bij den olde
Grise Coempt hier wat Naeder bij en segget
mij wije Rick arm Schoen ofte Eedel sij hier
Leggen sij al bij elc ander den eene en is niet
Meer Geacht Als den Ander Anno 1591.

What happens here is righteous:
The lord lies next to the servant,
the poor with the rich,
the ugly with the purelike,
the neighbor with the nobleman,
the scholar with the nitwit.
Here the fool lies with the wise,
the long with the old grey.
Come closer and tell me;
Who is rich, poor, beautiful or noble?
Here they all lie together.
The one is not considered more as the other.
Year 1591.

######

Posted 21 January 2012 - 09:45 AM

St. Catherine with the (broken) Wheel in the Bonifatius-church Leeuwarden:

######

Posted 24 January 2012 - 10:10 AM

lilthor, on 24 January 2012 - 08:05 AM, said:
If they date to 800 CE, what was at those sites during the 3-4k years prior to that?

One could imagine they long held raised structures of some kind for observation and even escape from floods (for a few).

Very good question.

Although not much was found indeed, it is hard to imagine that this most strategic and fertile delta was NOT inhabited all those millennia.

My guess is that for ages there was plenty of excellent oakwood (perfect for ships, pole-houses, watch-towers etc., but very flammable in times of war), untill the area was almost completely deforested and the bog-soil (result of age-old forrests) shrinked to become lying below sealevel.

######

Posted 24 January 2012 - 10:26 PM

For the dutch-language readers (sorry, no time to translate yet), here's a relevant chapter from:

Friesche Oudheden ~ Afbeeldingen van Merkwaardige Voorwerpen van Wetenschap en Kunst, gevonden in de Archieven, Kerken, Kasteelen, Terpen enz. van Friesland.
Published by the Friesch Genootschap (1875).
Page 48-50

######

Posted 24 January 2012 - 10:29 PM

Van Gorp, do you know this book?

Belgisch Museum vd Nederduitse Tael- en Letterkunde en de Geschiedenis des Vaderlands (1837) by Willems

http://books.google....epage&q&f=false

It's on my to read-list it.

######

Posted 30 January 2012 - 04:45 PM

By accident I ran into this documentary today, from Frisian television, about the OLB.
One of the final editors (eindredactie) was prof. dr. G.Th. Jensma.
In this doco his theory, that Haverschmidt wrote the OLB, is presented as fact.

When his thesis was presented and discussed some years ago, none of the speakers believed his conclusion and yet this is what the Frisian audience is being taught by the professor.

NOTE: the video is not subtitled in Dutch, so most Dutch won't understand it, and it has no tags or description, so searching online to find info about the OLB, no-one would find it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxZ7W7_I-Vo

######

Posted 31 January 2012 - 03:28 PM

Another reason why it is most unlikely (I'd say impossible) that Joost Halbertsma (1789-1869) was involved in the supposed (by Knul and Abe) fabrication of the OLB.

In 1867 Cornelis Over de Linden started corresponding with dr. Eelco Verwijs from the Fries Genootschap about the manuscript, and in the same year Verwijs reported to the government.

If - as Knul claims - Over de Linden and Stadermann had created their forgery based on Halbertsma's work, there are two possibilities:

1. Halbertsma knew about the forgery and agreed.

2. They had used his text without his agreement.

If 1. is true, Halbertsma risked being accused of forgery. With his place in society it is unthinkable that he would risk this.

If 2. is true, Over de Linden risked that Halbertsma (still alive in 1867) would spoil the forgery.

######

Posted 31 January 2012 - 04:08 PM

Abramelin, on 31 January 2012 - 03:31 PM, said:
-2- But the book was published after Halbertsma's death; he may not even have known someone had used/stolen his fable about ancient Frisian history, or that people were busy communicating (letters) about it.

He was an honorary member of the Genootschap and still alive in 1867, when it was first discussed there.

It is unthinkable that he has not heard about it.

######

Posted 31 January 2012 - 05:40 PM

Abramelin, on 31 January 2012 - 04:15 PM, said:
Then it's even better: he heard about it and kept his mouth shut, just to see the story unfold.

I don't know what I would do if someone publishes one of my concoctions believing it to be a real authentic and ancient manuscript. Maybe I'd just sit back and have an eternal grin on my face, lol.

Nonsense.

If Halbertsma would have been involved and if he would have talked, Cornelis Over de Linden would have been accused of something very bad (remember that Verwijs already reported to the government about it).

And if he was involved but stayed silent, he would still have risked losing his own very good reputation, specially in the Friesch Genootschap (Frisian Society).

You demonstrate not to have the slightest idea of 19th century psychology.

This was not about an innocent joke.

The point is, that Over de Linden would not have risked being betrayed by Halbertsma, and Halbertsma would not have gambled with his excellent reputation by being part of a forgery.

######

Posted 01 February 2012 - 12:16 AM

Abramelin, on 31 January 2012 - 08:42 PM, said:
I didn't deny Joost was a member, just that his brother Eeltje didn't have a very high opinion of these guys.

I suspect that part of the Genootschap's hidden agenda was to stress the uniqueness of Friesland (the Dutch provence), the (modern) Frisians, their language and culture, as opposed to Holland and the Dutch of their time. (And maybe even prepare for separation, if they would ever get the chance.)

The OLB did exactly the opposite: describe a shared history, language and culture.

The OLB (if true) is from a shared past. Some words survived in Dutch mainly, others only in Frisian.

Most members of this Genootschap will not have seen any use in Dutch-Frisian shared past & language; it did not match their agenda.

I observe something interesting and at the same time totally logical about the new-Frisian (Ny-Frysk) language:

If they can choose between two words that have the same meaning and are both correct (synonyms), Frisians (who love the uniqueness of their language) will prefer to use the more 'un-Dutch', the more typically Frisian variety. This is how neighboring languages deviate: People want to have their own language, preferrably not understood by the 'enemy' (or simply neighbor). The Dutch language has many synonyms, some more like German, others more like English. If Dutch people dislike Germans, they will avoid using Germanisms, but rather prefer Anglicisms. Theoretically, after a long time of peace and friendship with our neighboring countries, our vocabulary would be much more extended, as we would be happy to also use their languages and vocabulary, and play with mixing them.

Just thinking out loud here.

I have always been more interested in how languages match, rather than differ.

If the OLB language would have been created by some mad genius, it would be the perfect reconstruction of a shared origin of Dutch, Frisian, English, German and 'Scandinavian' (to name just the few most obvious ones).

It beautifully reflects what these languages have in common.

If a group of nowaday specialists would be asked to create a book in a reconstructed language of a few hundred years BC, I don't believe they could ever come up with something half as good as the OLB language.

Has something like that ever been tried?

I don't think so.

######

Posted 02 February 2012 - 01:52 PM

Abramelin, on 02 February 2012 - 12:06 PM, said:
My main purpose was to show how many adaptions Sandbach made with or without the help of Ottema.

Sandbach's wife was Dutch. She helped him.

Ottema was happy with his layout and copied it for the 2nd Dutch edition, but he was a bit dissapointed about the inaccuracy of the English translation.

(Source: letters Ottema to L.F. Over de Linden)

######

Posted 02 February 2012 - 03:48 PM

Ottema's darkest side

The letters between dr. Ottema and the Over de Lindens (first Cornelis and later his son Leendert Floris) show that there is one thing they kept disagreeing about and this may be a tiny but most important detail:

The translation and interpretation of the word "od" in the "forma skédnise" (creation myth).

Ottema insisted that it meant "hate" (from Latin), while Cornelis suggested it would have to do with fertility (from Saxon and old-Norse), which makes much more sense in the context anyway.

Ottema to L.F. Over de Linden (translated from letter in Dutch dated 26-1-1876):

"Od (anger, rage, hate, animosity) trad to-ra binna, means that hate entered the hearts of the three daughters of Irtha; this hate was obviously inherited by all of their descendants, and this is cause of the inborn, innate animosity specially in Finda's and Lyda's posterity against Frya's children. An animosity that will not end until the people of Finda and Lyda will be exterminated, and the people of Frya at the final victory will remain and inherit and posess the whole earth.
This animosity dominates all of history in the OLB and still goes on in our days. Frya's people pervade in all continents and establish European supremacy all over the earth. Everywhere the peoples of Finda and Lyda will have to submit or disappear."

If Ottema really believed that his very own family name was derived from a word that means "hate", it is no surprise that his life ended the way it did.

~ ~ ~

By now, I think Ottema's soul will have burnt long enough in the hell that he created for himself (as a matter of speaking).

~ ~ ~

Later I will translate parts of a letter from Cornelis Over de Linden, that demonstrate a completely different (positive) attitude.
(I didn't copy that yet in the archives.)

######

Posted 02 February 2012 - 04:46 PM

Abramelin, on 02 February 2012 - 04:39 PM, said:
Maybe "OD" could simply mean "lust"?
Like in "They were filled with lust".
"Entered by lust" or "Lust found its way among them" would sound a bit crappy.

LOL, yes, I'd prefer that to "hate".

Actually, I am sure that the whole reception history of the OLB would have been completely different.

Cornelis Over de Linden tried to warn Ottema, but the latter was too stubborn, or maybe he had a dark hidden agenda...

######

Posted 03 February 2012 - 12:14 PM
Otharus, on 21 December 2011 - 11:28 AM, said:
L.F. Over de Linden ("Beweerd maar niet bewezen", 1877) also refers to this:

"The most important peculiarity, concerning the origin of our numbers - called 'Arabic', but never used by the Arabs - the peculiarity that these numbers, in the 'Yul' as in the manuscript, appear as ornamentfigures in the decorations of the Alhambra, the greatest memorial of Morish architecture in Spain..."

Can anyone provide pictures of these decorations?

I found them:

Source:

The Arabian antiquities of Spain, by James Cavanah Murphy, London 1813

Comment from dr. Ottema in a letter to L.F. Over de Linden, dated 4-3-1875 (translation):

"For our ciphars we are not indebted to the Arabs, for the simple reason, that they never used such figures as ciphars, and we therefore could not have gotten ours from them."

######

Posted 03 February 2012 - 02:02 PM

Abramelin, on 03 February 2012 - 12:53 PM, said:
Yeah, I get it now, Ottema's 'dark side'... he's a first class racist.

The Nazi's wanted to exterminate 'only' the Jews, but Ottema's ideal was that all yellow and black people would 'disappear'...

Interestingly, in the OLB a completely different final victory is idealised.

From HEL.LÉNJA.S SKRIFTA:

[OLB p.140/18 with translation Sandbach, and some corrections by me]

MEN AS THA PRESTERA SKILUN WÁNA THÀT HJA ALLET LJUCHT FON FRYA ÀND FON JES.US LÉRE UTDÁVATH HÀVA.
But when the priests fancy that they have entirely extinguished the light of Frya and ~~Jessos~~ [Jes-us],

SÁ SKILUN THÉR IN ALLE VVRDA MÀNNISKA VPSTONDA THAM WÉRHÉD IN STILNISE AMONG EKKORUM WARATH ÀND TO FÁRA THA PRESTERA FORBORGEN HÀVE.
then shall ~~all classes of~~ men [in all places] rise up who have quietly preserved the truth among ~~themselves~~ [eachother], and have hidden it from the priests.

THISSA SKILUN WÉSA UT FORSTA BLOD. FON PRESTERUM BLOD FON SLÁVONUM BLOD ÀND FON FRYA.S BLOD.
They shall be of princely blood, of priests, ~~Slavonic~~ [slaves], and Frya's blood.

THAM SKILUM HJARA FODDIKUM ÀND THÀT LJUCHT BUTA BRINGA SÁ THAT ALLERA MÀNNALIK WÉRHÉD MÉI SJAN.
They will ~~make their light visible~~ [bring out their 'foddiks' and the light], so that all men shall see the truth;

HJA SKILUN WÉ HROPA OVERA DÉDA THÉRA PRESTERA ÀND FORSTA.
they shall cry woe to the acts of the princes and the priests.

THA FORSTA THÉR WÉRHÉD MINNA ÀND RJUCHT THAM SKILUN FON THA PRESTERA WIKA.
The princes who love the truth and justice shall separate themselves from the priests;

BLOD SKIL STRÁMA.
blood shall flow,

MEN THÉRUT SKILET FOLK NYE KRÀFTA GÁRA.
but from it the people will gather new strength.

FINDA.S FOLK SKIL SINA FINDINGRIKHÉD TO MÉMA NITHA WENDA.
Finda's folk shall contribute their ~~industry~~ [inventiveness] to the common good,

THÀT LYDA.S FOLK SINA KRÀFTA ÀND WI VSA WISDOM.
~~Linda's~~ [Lyda's] folk their strength, and we our wisdom.

THA SKILUN THA FALXA PRESTERA WÉI FÁGATH WERTHA FON JRTHA.
Then the false priests shall be swept away from the earth.

######

Posted 03 February 2012 - 02:18 PM

Dr. Ottema in a letter to L.F. Over de Linden, dated 13-6-1876 (translated from Dutch):

"On a memorial stone of Domburg Neef Teunis is standing next to Nehalennia.
You can also see him on the tower of Zierikzee, where he has the job of weather vane,
and all his life was known to the people of Zierikzee as nothing other than Neef Teunis."

Image of the weather vane in Zierikzee, known to the 19th century inhabitants as "Neef Teunis" (old-Dutch name for Neptune?).

######

Posted 03 February 2012 - 03:00 PM

Otharus, on 02 February 2012 - 02:25 PM, said:

The suggestion that a book is loved mostly by neo-nazi's and other extremists is an effective way to make it taboo to speak openly about it (in other words suppress it).

More about the taboo on taking the OLB seriously:

Dr. Ottema in a letter to L.F. Over de Linden, dated 24-6-1876 (translated from Dutch):

"I wish someone would act who is courageous enough to defend the OLB in public, without fear for the systematic intimidation.
Because all the howling is intimidation, started by Spectator magazine and systematically sustained.
There are enough proponents, but they dare not speak, out of fear of being declared fool or villain."

######

Posted 03 February 2012 - 03:17 PM

One of the probable reasons why it was made a taboo to take the OLB seriously.

Cornelis Over de Linden in a letter to Dr. Ottema, dated 16-11-1871 (translated from Dutch):

"I don't have the slightest doubts that one day the truth will come float to the surface, but now that I have studied your translation, I figure that the laws described in it are very radical, and that when the theology it teaches would become that of the people again, all sorts of clergymen would have to find a new job. That is why I think they will oppose it as much as is in their power."

######

Posted 03 February 2012 - 03:58 PM

Otharus, on 14 July 2011 - 10:25 AM, said:
In the most scientific publication about the paper-age study, "The Oera Linda Boek - A literary forgery and its paper", by A. Kardinaal, E. v.d. Grijn, H. Porck; published in: IPH Congress Book 16 (2006), p. 177-185; discussed here, it is merely suggested that the paper is from the 19th century, but not clearly stated.

The following quote from dr. Ottema (translated from letter to L.F. Over de Linden, dated june or july 1876) about the OLB paper is interesting, but was not mentioned by Jensma nor in the report of the recent paper study:

"Concerning the waterlines, the making of paper on wire frames was invented by the Goths in Spain between the years 1035 when Toledo was conquered, and 1238 when Valencia was conquered. They already used watermills and stamping techniques to process cotton tatters. See: Meyers Conversations Lexicon; art. Paper.
[...] Remember this: no chlorine and no amylose, therefore no machine-made paper. I would be surprised if the ink is anything else than pure lamp-soot, that remains black and does not corrode the paper."

######

Posted 03 February 2012 - 04:46 PM

Abramelin, on 03 February 2012 - 04:03 PM, said:
I find this quote highly suspicious.
It's almost like CodL gives us the true reason why he created or took part in the fabrication of the OLB.

If you'd read all of Cornelis' letters and diaries, you'd probably come to a different conclusion, unless you are as paranoid as Jensma.

Here's another fragment.

Cornelis Over de Linden in a letter to Dr. Ottema, dated 26-10-1873 (translated from Dutch):

"I gave a copy of The Oera Linda Bok [Ottema's translation] to a cousin of mine who works in the town hall of Enkhuizen. He borrowed it to the gentlemen of the town hall. One of those gentlemen made the remark, that the ALDEGAMUEDE must be the 'Oudergouw' near Enkhuizen, NOT 'Ouddorp' near Alkmaar. This 'Oudergouw' is a brook right behind the city that is being dried these days. It is three poles, that is half a tide or three hours from Medeasblik."

OLB page/line
050/19: ALDE-GÁ-MVDE
053/15: ALDER-GÁ-MVDE
065/22: ALDER-GÁ
085/22: ALDERGA
110/17+23: ALDERGA
116/31: ALDERGÁ
118/26: ALDERGA
120/04: ALDERGA
148/15: ALDER-GÁ
157/22: ALDER-GÁ

Ottema didn't change Ouddorp into Oudergouw in his second edition (1876) as suggested by Cornelis.

This is about Enkhuizen, where Cornelis had his roots and from where he got the manuscript.

Why, if he was involved in its creation, would he have waited till after the first edition, with pointing out to Ottema that Alderga should be Oudergouw (near Enkhuizen) and not Ouddorp (near Alkmaar)?

For me this is another indication that Cornelis was innocent and honest, but for Jensma it will be more proof of his slyness.

######

Posted 03 February 2012 - 09:40 PM

Abramelin, on 03 February 2012 - 05:37 PM, said:
OK, so I must be paranoid now because I said your quote from the letter looks higly suspicious and that it almost looks like .. , and so on.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paranoia

Paranoia (adjective: paranoid) is a thought process believed to be heavily influenced by anxiety or fear, often to the point of irrationality and delusion. Paranoid thinking typically includes persecutory beliefs, or beliefs of conspiracy concerning a perceived threat towards oneself. Making false accusations and the general distrust of others also frequently accompany paranoia.

Jensma's Haverschmidt theory

Somewhere around 1860, François Haverschmidt (1835-1894) wrote the OLB in Dutch, Eelco Verwijs (1830-1880) translated it into a reconstruction of Oldfrisian, and Cornelis Over de Linden (1811-1874) wrote it in the specially designed Jol-script.

- Haverschmidt would have lied in publications and personally to Ottema, who had been his teacher and whom Haverschmidt respected. As Jensma put it, "he broke reputations, in the first place that of poor Ottema, whose old days he poisoned and whose remembrance he stultified."

- Verwijs would have lied in publications, to his fellow members of the Fries Genootschap and to Government officials. In Jensma's words, he would have "deceived his superiors and abused his professional authority". All letters between Verwijs and Over de Linden would have been part of the hoax.

- Cornelis Over de Linden would have lied in all his letters to Ottema and to his very own family, even in his testament. He would have replaced a real old family-document (that according to several witnesses must have existed) by a fake manuscript. Jensma describes Cornelis as a "brutal liar".

- Anyone defending one of the three 'convicts', or confirming Over de Linden's story, must be a liar too, and part of the conspiracy.

The Halbertsma/ Over de Linden/ Stadermann theory
... is even less realistic. I won't waste any more time on that for now.

######

Posted 04 February 2012 - 10:41 AM

OLB-related books in Frisian public libraries (Tresoar not included)

Leeuwarden
- Jensma: Gemaskerde God (2004)
- Jensma: Oera Linda-boek (2006)

Sneek
- Jensma: Gemaskerde God (2004)
- Jensma: Oera Linda-boek (2006)

Dokkum
- Jensma: Gemaskerde God (2004)

Heerenveen
- Jensma: Gemaskerde God (2004)

######

Posted 04 February 2012 - 11:49 AM

Abramelin, on 04 February 2012 - 11:35 AM, said:
Well, you must live in fairy land if you really think the OLB is being suppressed.

I think we are talking about something different.

I guess you mean suppressed by the government or something, like political suppression.

I will try to explein better what I mean:

Before I found this forum, I have tried a few times to make the Dutch Wiki-page about the OLB a bit more neutral. It had been set up by a Jensma adept and he would not allow a single change. There other views than that of Jensma and his followers were suppressed in that sense.

Jensma in his book suggests that 'followers' of Ottema are idiots, nazis and other 'suspicious' people.
How encouraging is that?

When I started asking difficult questions to the research group that is investigating the OLB-paper (lead by guess who, Jensma), they answered that they would not give any further information.

In the beginning of this thread you claimed that no-one in the Netherlands or Friesland believed in OLB's authenticity and you suggested that it's so selfevident that it's fake that to believe it one has to be very stupid. I think you also suggested once that it's only neonazis who like it.

What about the fact that in Ottema's obituary from the Fries Genootschap, his lifework the OLB is not even mentioned? Appearantly it was a painful, embassaring subject.

I have heard about people losing their mind, studying the OLB.

To have one's belief system challenged can be a very scary thing.

People tend to suppress difficult or painful thoughts and memories.

They do this to themselves and others, no government needed.

######

Posted 04 February 2012 - 02:09 PM

Abramelin, on 04 February 2012 - 12:21 PM, said:
About Ottema's obituary: could it not have been his work on the OLB was left out on request of his family to 'protect his reputation' which had suffered quite a lot because it?

Whether it was Ottema's relatives or the Fries Genootschap, the fact that OLB was his lifework, that he was 'Mister OLB', that he had become internationally known for it etc., was left out of his obituary from 1879.

Four years earlier (1875), another publication from the Genootschap was still very positive about the OLB and Ottema's work on it.

Something happened between 1875 and 1879, and I know exactly what: Beckering Vinkers aggressive pseudo-scientific publication (1876), which "aimed at ridiculing the OLB" as he admitted. After this no-one dared to speak positively about it. The effect of this publication was suppression of the OLB. The subject had become taboo.

######

Posted 04 February 2012 - 04:54 PM

Abramelin, on 04 February 2012 - 12:31 AM, said:
And yes, most Dutch think it is ridiculous there are people who believe in it, but that's about it.

Most Dutch have never even heard of it and most of the few who have, hardly know anything more than what they know from hearsay.

But yes, many of those few will talk like you at the beginning of this thread, that no sane person would believe it and that it would be a self-evident hoax.

My point is: it's not that obvious and it would deserve a serious unbiassed multidisciplinary investigation.

######

Posted 04 February 2012 - 05:26 PM

I think the high relevance of my post about Ottema was missed.

Otharus, on 02 February 2012 - 03:48 PM, said:
Ottema's darkest side
[...]
Ottema to L.F. Over de Linden (translated from letter in Dutch dated 26-1-1876):

"[...] An animosity that will not end until the people of Finda and Lyda will be exterminated, and the people of Frya at the final victory will remain and inherit and posess the whole earth.
This animosity dominates all of history in the OLB and still goes on in our days. Frya's people pervade in all continents and establish European supremacy all over the earth. Everywhere the peoples of Finda and Lyda will have to submit or disappear."
[...]

If he wrote things like this to Over de Linden he may have talked like this too, in meetings of the Genootschap, informally, or who knows where and when.

It may have been a good thing to shut him up.

If only he would have listened to Cornelis and chosen a better translation of that little odd word in the creation myth...

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

I am happy with Alewyn's 2nd edition, but I must admit that I am disappointed that, despite my several posts here about it, he chose to copy the mistake from Ottema that was copied by Sandbach. It might seem to be a tiny detail, but it makes a huge difference.

Alewyn, can you explain?

######

Posted 04 February 2012 - 05:54 PM

Otharus, on 03 February 2012 - 12:14 PM, said:

Which version looks more original?

If you'd ask me, I'd say that it looks like the Alhambra artist had once seen the Jol-numbers, but didn't exactly remember and tried to reconstruct from his memory.

The OLB-version makes more sense to me.

######

Posted 04 February 2012 - 06:29 PM

Because Abe has challenged me several times to post something in favor of the hoax-theories, I will for once descend to that level.

Why François Haverschmidt might have written the OLB.
(Not mentioned by Jensma, as far as I know.)

Under the pseudonym "Piet Paaltjens", he wrote this poem ca. 1850:

Aan Rika

Slechts éénmaal heb ik u gezien. Gij waart
Gezeten in een sneltrein, die den trein,
Waar ik mee reed, passeerde in volle vaart.
De kennismaking kon niet korter zijn.
En toch, zij duurde lang genoeg, om mij
Het eindloos levenspad met fletsen lach
Te doen vervolgen. Ach! geen enkel blij
Glimlachje liet ik meer, sinds ik u zag.
Waarom ook hebt gij van dat blonde haar,
Daar de engelen aan te kennen zijn? En dan,
Waarom blauwe ogen, wonderdiep en klaar?
Gij wist toch, dat ik daar niet tegen kan?
En waarom mij dan zo voorbijgesneld,
En niet als de weerlicht 't rijtuig opgerukt,
En om mijn hals uw armen vastgekneld,
En op mijn mond uw lippen vastgedrukt?
Gij vreesdet mooglijk voor een spoorwegramp?
Maar, Rika, wat kon zaalger voor mij zijn,
Dan, onder hels geratel en gestamp,
Met u verplet te worden door één trein?

[OLB 189/02] use of the name Rika
BRÉF FON RIKA THJU ALD.FÁM. VPSÉID TO STÁVEREN BY.T JOL.FÉRSTE.

[OLB 009/18] blue eyes
FRYA WAS WIT LIK SNÉI BY.T MÔRNE.RÁD ÀND THAT BLÁW HJRAR ÔGNUM. WN.ET JETA THÉRE RÉINBÔGE OF.

[OLB 009/22] this must be about (light-) blond hair
LIK STRÉLON THÉRE MIDDÉI SVNNE BLIKADON HJRA HÉRON THÉR SA FIN WÉRON AS RACH.

If I think it's a strong argument?

No, ofcourse not.

######

Posted 04 February 2012 - 10:18 PM

Let's brainstorm about these Alhambra decorations.

To me the Alhambra numbers look like they have been made by someone who tried to make sense out the the idea that the numbers were based on a circle with spokes, but he couldn't really figure it out.

It's not likely that the OLB version is based on the Alhambra ones, and yet they seem to be somehow related.

It makes more sense that the Alhambra ones were vaguely based on a more original version where they were indeed fitted into a 6-spoked wheel.

######

Posted 04 February 2012 - 11:27 PM

Abramelin, on 04 February 2012 - 10:37 PM, said:
To me the Alhambra numbers look like someone from Arabic descent went to India and wanted to create his own version, using (semi-)circles.
The result looks the same, the basis is different.
And we have Arab manuscripts far older than the OLB (= 19th century).

Why Arabic?

Arabic numbers look different.

######

Posted 05 February 2012 - 01:24 PM
About 'suppression' of the OLB.

If I would have children, I would not want their minds to be poisoned with lies and nonsense.

So if I would believe that the OLB was fake, I would not want a schoolteacher to teach my kids that it is true.

It would needlessly confuse them.

I would want him to shut up and leave.

So I perfectly understand why and respect that OLB-'advocates' have been suppressed.

. . . . . .

But now it's time to evaluate whether the arguments used to reject it were strong and sincere.

Jensma wrote that he did not include a list of personal and geographic names, because that would only encourage reading it as if it were true.

What was he affraid of?

That some readers might start believing in its authenticity?

Did he realise that his (hoax) arguments were not strong enough?

######

Posted 06 February 2012 - 11:24 AM

In his 2006 book, Jensma suggests on pages 143 and 195 (OLB pages 36 and 62) that the makers of the OLB have created the etymology for Nehalennia = NY.HEL.LÉNJA = bringer of new light.

I have found an older source where this etymology is suggested:

"Schatkamer der Nederlandsse Oudheden" (1711) by Ludolf Smids

######

Posted 06 February 2012 - 12:20 PM

Anyway, we have established, that the etymology Nehalennia => NY-HEL => new light is not a 19th century invention, as Jensma thought, but older than 1711.

######

Posted 06 February 2012 - 04:38 PM

Alewyn, on 06 February 2012 - 03:24 PM, said:
To my mind, therefore, I find Ottema and Sandbach’s translation of the word “odd” to “hatred” or “hate” (“haat” in Afrikaans) to be correct and not the sexual connotation you put to it.

Thank you for your answer, Alewyn.

The word is OD, not ODD, and my interpretation is not necessarily "sexual".

I have argued that the translation into "hatred" is based on Latin, while the word has a very different meaning in Old-Saxon (ancestral inheritance, luck, etc.) and Old-Norse (spirit, life-force).

Now guess what languages are more related to Old-Frisian? Not Latin!

That Ottema insisted in this mistranslation is even more shocking, because Over de Linden (and later his son) pointed out the better translations to him.

OdL also warned Ottema that if you tell your children stories about hate, they will more probably start fighting, while if you tell them about love, they will grow up more lovingly. I will copy and translate that letter when I visit the archives next time.

Also look at the context: something enters the three women, and AFTER THAT they give birth to 12 sons and 12 daughters.

There has to be something seriously wrong with you, if you believe that "hate" can make a woman pregnant (or that the old Frisians educated their children that way).

Quote
Having said all this, I did not loose any sleep over it as the creation myth is obviously not factual.

A creation myth defines how people think about the origin of life.

In Ottema's mind, the translation of OD into "hate", resulted in fantasies about white supremacy and the extermination of all coloured peoples.

Here lies the major difference in the minds of Ottema and Over de Linden.

- - - - - -

And I must admit, that it also feels like an insult if you translate the word that is the origin of my family name (as you will understand) with "hate".

######

Posted 06 February 2012 - 11:19 PM

Alewyn, on 06 February 2012 - 08:48 PM, said:
I don't think that the OdLs was qualified to advise Ottema on the translation.
Ottema was, after all, highly regarded as a linguist.

OdL was self-educated and knew several OLB words that were still known in North-Holland, but not in Friesland.

Ottema gratefully accepted several suggestions from OdL.

In this case, common sense is enough to see that OdL was right and that Ottema was wrong.

No serious translator after Ottema and Sandbach used "hatred" for "od".

######

Posted 06 February 2012 - 11:26 PM

Alewyn, on 06 February 2012 - 08:48 PM, said:
Let us look at the sentence again:
“Od trad to-ra binna”

Have a GOOD look at the original.

The sentence is: "WR.ALDA.S OD TRÀD TO RA BINNA"

If "od" meant "hate", it would say: "wralda's hate".

"God's hate"?!

I hope you will finally see that it really does not make sense.

######

Posted 07 February 2012 - 11:34 AM
Alewyn, on 07 February 2012 - 10:34 AM, said:
Just have another look at the full text:

Frisian transcription on “Project Gutenberg”:
...

This transcription is the one by Ottema, which is not without mistakes. He had to make it in a hurry. I only work with the original and have discovered many transcription errors, that sometimes lead to translation errors. This is one of them.

Here is, once more, the fragment in the original manuscript:

Quote
As you can see, from all of the above, none of these translations say “Wralda’s od”.

That is because they are based on Ottema's erroneous transliteration.

Quote
You will also notice that Wralda breathed his spirit upon Frya only

No, that's your erroneous translation (based on a misinterpretation by Sandbach); HJA KÉMON and HJAM are plural.

[006/26]
THÁ HJA BLÁT KÉMON SPISDE WR.ALDA HJAM MITH SINA ÁDAMA.
Ottema (1876):
Toen deze te voorschijn kwamen, spijsde Wralda haar met zijnen adem
Sandbach (1876):
When the last came into existence, Wr-alda breathed his spirit upon her
Jensma (2006):
Toen zij bloot kwamen, spijsde Wralda hen met zijn adem

Quote
The word “trad” is closer to “tread” than to “enter”.

Yes, so something "tread" into them.

I didn't know that was proper English.

Why could this not be something positive like "spirit", "life-force" (from Old-Norse), or something based on the Old-Saxon "od", which seems to have meant "luck", or "ancestral inheritance". Both the Old-Norse and the Old-Saxon versions have nothing to do with "hate", that's only in Latin.

Quote
In the original manuscript there does not appear to be a full stop after “Wralda’s”, in which case your interpretation could be right.

Indeed, my interpretations are based on the original manuscript only.

Quote
The previous sentence, however, would then end with “visions”. This does not make sense. Whose visions?

No, it ends with "DRÁMA", which means "dreams".
They got "FRÜCHDA ÀND NOCHTA ANDA DRÁMA" = they got "fruits and nuts" (methaphor) or "joy and pleasure" (Dutch: vreugde en genot/ geneugten) "in the/ their dreams".

Compare:
[202/32]
NÉI THONGAR WÉRON FRIA.S SJVGUN WÁK.FÁMKES HJA ANDA DRÁME FORESKINNEN. SJVGUN NACHTA ÀFTER EKKÔRUM.
Ottema:
Na dien donder waren Fryas zeven waakmaagden haar in den droom verschenen, zeven nachten achtereen
Sandbach:
After the thunder Frya's seven watch-maidens appeared to her in a dream seven nights in succession.

######

Posted 07 February 2012 - 12:33 PM

Alewyn, on 07 February 2012 - 10:34 AM, said:
Nowhere else in the book are they as explicit as you suggest in this part.
This was a history book which, no doubt, was intended to be read and taught to children as well.

Have a good look at the following fragment, and note that both Ottema and Sandbach self-censored, as I will prove:

[082/19]
HWIL THAT ALREK DROK TO KÀMPANE WÉRE
WAS THÉR EN WLA FIN TO THÉRE FLÉTE JEFTHA BEDRUM FON THÉRE MODER INLET.
ÁND WILDE HJA NÉDGJA.
THA THJU MODER WÉRDIM OF THAT ER BEKWÁRD TOJÉNST THA WÁCH STRUMPELDE.
THÁ.R WITHER VPA BÉN WÉRE STEKER SIN SWÉRD TO IR BUK IN. SEGZANDE.
NILST MIN KUL NAVT SÁ SKILST MIN SWÉRD HA.

Ottema (1876):
Terwijl iedereen druk aan het vechten was,
was er een leelijke Fin in de (fleete) of het slaapvertrek van de Moeder binnen geslopen,
en wilde haar geweld aandoen.
De Moeder weerde hem af, dat hij ruggelings tegen de wand tuimelde.
Toen hij weder op de been was, stak hij haar zijn zwaard in de buik, zeggende:
wilt gij mijne roede niet, zoo zult gij mijn zwaard hebben.

Sandbach (1876):
While the fight was going on,
a rascally Finn stole into the chamber of the mother,
and would have done her violence.
She resisted him, and threw him down against the wall.
When he got up, be ran his sword through her:
If you will not have me, you shall have my sword.

Jensma (2006):
Terwijl een ieder druk aan het vechten was,
was er een vuile Fín in de 'fleete' of slaapkamer van de Moeder geslopen
en wilde haar verkrachten.
Maar de Moeder weerde 'm af zodat-ie achteruit tegen de wand strompelde.
Toen-ie weer op de been was, stak-ie zijn zwaard in haar buik, zeggende:
"Wil je mijn kul niet, dan zul je mijn zwaard hebben."

Raubenheimer (2011, p.371):
While everybody was fiercely fighting,
a vile Finn slipped into the bedroom of the mother
and wanted to violate her.
She fought him off so that he fell backwards against the wall.
When he got up, he ran his sword through her abdomen saying:
"If you will not have me, you shall have my sword".

Old-Frisian dictionary (1832) Hettema about NEDGA:

NÉDGJA = NEDGA = to rape (Dutch: verkrachten)

Frisian dictionary (1896) Dijkstra & Buitenrust Hettema about KUL:

KUL = penis

######

Posted 07 February 2012 - 12:42 PM

Alewyn, on 07 February 2012 - 10:34 AM, said:
Sometimes one has to take a holistic view of the book to try to determine the correct meaning such as in this case.
[...]
I find it unlikely that they would have described the penetration of these earth mothers’ bodies as you claim.
[...]
I find it even more unbelievable that the old Fryans would have ascribed a carnal act to their most revered Creator.

If you want to understand the "old Fryans" from the OLB, I would advise to take a more holistic view of Frisian cultural history, like I try to do.

One of the things you will learn, is that their language was far more rich in words and expressions that refer to sexuality, than modern Dutch, English and German together.

That subject, BTW, was one of Joost Halbertsma's passions.

######

Posted 07 February 2012 - 01:13 PM

Otharus, on 07 February 2012 - 12:42 PM, said:
One of the things you will learn, is that their language was far more rich in words and expressions that refer to sexuality, than modern Dutch or English.

That subject, BTW, was one of Joost Halbertsma's passions.

Here's a fragment to illustrate from:
J.H. Halbertsma als lexicograaf. Studies over het Lexicon Frisicum (1872),
by Anne Dykstra, for the Fryske Akademy - Afūk, Ljouwert 2011.

(From chapter 5 - Sexual language and the Lexicon Frisicum)

######

Posted 07 February 2012 - 02:13 PM

Alewyn, on 07 February 2012 - 01:43 PM, said:
You have convinced me. Your interpretation is correct.
(It sometimes just take a bit longer)

Thank you, no worries.

I'm also learning to explain things better, before I'm ready to publish anything on paper.

######

Posted 07 February 2012 - 10:38 PM

Here's all fragments with WRALDAS, WRALDA.S or WR.ALDA.S; Wralda-his.

(I have not checked all transliterations this time.)

As you can see there are only four examples were WRALDAS is placed AFTER the word that it belongs to, as it more usually (21 times, "WRALDAS OD" not included) is placed before the word, just like in modern English, Dutch and Frysk.

Also note that in none of the four examples an underscore is used between the word and WRALDAS.

Normal use: WRALDAS before the word; 21 times

THJUS ÁGATH WRALDA.S GÁST

THESSA NIGUNG HÀVATH WI TRVCH WR.ALDA.S GÁST

ÉWA IS ÁK THET ÔRA SINNA.BYLD FON WR.ALDA.S GÁST

NÉI THA SIN THÉR WR.ALDA.S GÁST

FON WR.ALDA.S GÁST NÉTON HJA NAWET

THAT NIMMAN GOD JEFTA FVLKVMA WÉSA NE KVNDE THÀN WR.ALDA.S. GÁST

THET HJARA GÁST THET BESTE DÉL IS FON WR.ALDA.S GÁST

WÉRE HJARA GÁST WR.ALDA.S GÁST SÁ SKOLDE WR.ALDA ÉL DVM WÉSA

WY FRYA.S BERN SEND FORSKINSLA THRVCH WR.ALDA.S LÉVA

VMBE SÉJEN TO WINNANDE FON WR.ALDA.S.GÁST

BÉVADE JRTHA LÎK WR.ALDAS SÉ

WR.ALDAS GÁST MÉI MÀN ALLÉNA KNIBUWGJANDE TÁNK TOWÍA

THÀT IS WRALDAS GÁST

THRVCH WR.ALDAS SÉ BISLOTEN

THAT.I FRYA ÀND WR.ALDAS GÁST MIS.KÀNA ÀND SPOTA THVRADE

THÀT AIDER SKEPSLE EN DÉL IS FON WR.ALDAS VNENDLIK WÉSA

THRVCH UT WR.ALDAS LÉVA

EN DÉL FON WRALDAS VNENDELIK WÉSA

THINGA THAM THRVCH WR.ALDAS LÉVA FORSKINA

VSA GÁST NIS NAVT WR.ALDAS GÁST

AK LIKTET NÉI WR.ALDA.S HÉI

- - - - - -

Variety: WRALDAS after the word; 4 times

AN THA NÔME WRALDAS

IK BEN THET BESTE DÉL WR.ALDAS

HROP THÀN THI GÁST WR.ALDAS AN

THÀT IS THÀT FORMA SINNE BILD WR.ALDA.S

######

Posted 07 February 2012 - 10:44 PM

The 3 mothers started having 'fruits' and 'nuts' in their dreams (not Wralda's), before they became pregnant.

Don't fruits and nuts have everything to do with fertility and procreation?

Aboriginals would perfectly understand this concept, wouldn't they, Puzzler?

A seed dreams of becoming a plant or tree, etc.

Reality follows after dreamtime.

Good dreams lead to good deeds.

######

Posted Today, 10:27 AM
Letter from Cornelis Over de Linden to Dr. Ottema, dated 8-11-1871 (translated).

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Den Helder, 8 November 1871

Dear and erudite sir,

I am pleased that we have come to an agreement.

When nothing is in the way, one can think more clearly. Therefore I will once more point at my earlier comments.

You would prefer to translate 'poppenkoningen' into 'papenkings' ['paap' is an invection for catholics]. Here in Westfriesland strangers are called 'pop', terms like 'poppe-horses' and '-pigs' are known too.

Thus you would not risk a mistake if you would use 'strange kings' for 'poppa koningen'. You say: "In Apolonnia's book, the 'Formleer' is the purest representation of Godness, that most agrees with the Christian view. More sublime than Jehova from the old Testament, who goes for a walk in the garden of Eden in the morning, to have a chat with Adam.

If you want to prevent that many people will put the book aside, prejudiced at first sight, you should - according to my modest mind - avoid things that can upset people. One catches more flies with syrup than with vinegar.

[...]

When children need to swallow a bitter medicine, to free them of worms that hinder their growth, we don't say: "swallow this, stupid, because it's for your own good"; but we comfort them with sweet words and candy.

That's how scholars who want to elevate the people should act, rather than inveigh them with terms like grey, donkeys, etc.

You want to replace the word 'od' with 'animosity'. On page 128 I find FIAND for enemy. I would rather see you use 'fertilising force' - or a more appropriate term. The word animosity will cause animosity. [Ottema would later change 'animosity' in 'hatred'.] When one speaks to youths about love, they will fall in love. But when one speaks to them of war, they will seperate in groups and play soldier, to the great pleasure of despotism.

[...]

Having nothing else bothering me, I great you friendly, and am respectfully at your service,

C. Over de Linden.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

######

Posted Today, 05:07 PM

Abramelin, on 09 February 2012 - 11:55 AM, said:
Otharus, why do you think CodL would try to correct Ottema on the latter translating the word OD into 'animosity'?

Because 'animosity' in that fragment does not make sense.

Quote
I mean to say: CodL resepcted Ottema and his erudition. He could instead have asked something like, "Are you sure OD means 'animosity'?

COdL respected Ottema, but didn't think the erudite doctor was omniscient.
Ottema had had a better education and social status than OdL, but he was less intelligent.

Quote
The sentence you translated almost makes it look like CodL knew better then Ottema.

In this case, he did indeed.
He had put a big effort in educating himself.

Quote
And "fertilizing force" is not just another, nicer, more positive, or better sounding expression for the word "animosity", it means something totally different.

Yes, Cornelis was not prejudiced by the Latin meaning.
He may have read or heard about the Saxon or Nordic meaning, or just used his common sense.

Quote
Based on what I think - that CodL was one of the co-creators of the OLB - I'd say that CodL was the one who entered that word, OD, into the OLB using what he had read, and was now amazed an erudite person like Ottema translated it into 'animosity'. Like in "Hey, that was not what I meant!"

In that case he would also have mentioned the misplacing of the point between WRALDAS and OD.

He could not imagine that his ancestors would tell their children that life had originated out of animosity or hatred, which is a sick idea anyway.

He simply had an obvious interest in having the manuscripty of his ancestors translated as good as possible.

Your ideas about COdL are based on your ignorance about him. You should read his letters and diaries if you are serious about your theory.

Friesche Oudheden

2012-01-24T13:33:00.001-08:00

A relevant chapter from:

Friesche Oudheden ~ Afbeeldingen van Merkwaardige Voorwerpen van Wetenschap en Kunst, gevonden in de Archieven, Kerken, Kasteelen, Terpen enz. van Friesland.
Published by the Friesch Genootschap (1875).
Page 48-50

http://images.tresoar.nl/wumkes/pdf/Friesche_Oudheden.pdf

TRANSLATION SEE BELOW

The OERA LINDA Manuscript

The Over de Linden family in Den Helder has an old manuscript, of which script, language and content are unknown. It was passed on from generation to generation, with the advice to keep it with care, as a family-treasure. The owner thought it was written in Old-Frisian, and that it might contain information about ancient ancestors.

When Dr. Eelco Verwijs, archivist-biblothecarian of Fryslân, heard about this, he informed the government. He was instructed to examine it. On 17 December 1867 he reported his first conclusions. The owner has given him permission to transcribe and translate the manuscript.

Thanks to the persevering zeal and care of Dr. Jan Ottema, the content was understood and translated. In detail he reported the results of his accurate examination in a meeting of the Frisian Society on 10 February 1871. This report was printed and distributed, and lead to a great common interest in this curious piece.

In his opinion, the doubts that had risen about the authenticity of the manuscript had no grounds. He saw it as a most important source of old-Frisian history, with completely new information. His conclusion: "We can assume that this manuscript, of which the oldest part was composed ca. 600 BC, contains the oldest product (besides Homer and Hesiod) of European literature. It describes an ancient culture, thus far unknown, with a development, civilization, industry, navigation, trade, literature and sublime religious values. In our imagination, our history did not reach beyond the arrival of Friso (ca. 300 BC), the supposed Frisian founding father. Here however we discover a history beyond 2000 BC, older than that of Greece and as old as that of Israel."

The manuscript is a copy from 1256, made by Hidde Oera Linda. In all debates about its authenticity and value, it was impossible to have a solid judgement, until it was published in 1872. [...]

Publication lead to heavy debates about authenticity of the manuscript. Dr. Ottema published an explanation in 1873, titled 'Historical Notes and Clarifications to the Oera Linda book', and defended it a year later in 'The Royal Academy and the Oera Linda book'. Dr. A.T. Reitsma from Groningen studied it and presented the result of his critical research in three meetings of the Frisian Society. He concluded that the manuscript is probably real, and of high historic value. In the last meeting the skeptics also gave their opinion. The manuscript itself was also displayed at that occasion, so anyone could judge if it could be a 13th century copy.

The most detailed research report so far was published in 1874, titled 'In response to the Oera Linda Book'. It is obvious that the author (prof. A.J. Vitringa) is very erudite and unprejudiced. His answer to the thought that the book would be a forgery, made after 1853, when the stilt-houses in lake Zürich were discoverd, is: "Who would be the forgerer? Not just anyone would be capable of such a thing. For that an accurate knowledge is needed of the oldest Frisian language, of which a very limited vocabulary from only a few sources is available. Besides, one should have known how that language would have changed through the ages. The fact is, there is a clear difference between the language of the oldest and the youngest texts of the manuscript. The forgerer would have needed a rare historic and geographic knowledge. Years of study would have been an inexorable condition and writing the odd letterscript would have been a tough job. What would all that effort have been good for? Honour? ... Forgerers have a good reason to keep their name a secret. - Money? ... Beforehand it was hardly expectable that any profit could be made with publication. - The pleasure of fooling some scholars? ... Would an utterly erudite and talented man, as the maker must have been, offer so much time and effort for such questionable delight? All that is inconceivable."

"What we have here is an odd dilemma: Either we are being fooled by a fabrication, made by a highly devoted, mad genius, or much of our ancient history will be seen from a different viewpoint, which will make a revolution in that field inevitable."

"You might think it was made by a bored friar? This cannot be the case either. The OLB describes ethics and a concept of God, that are unsurpassably true and pure, anti-monkish and anti-theologic. Someone who was raised under the influence of Katholic or even Protestant dogma's, could impossibly have expressed these true liberal and totally unbenefited feelings."

And yet this scholar concluded: "Although nothing excludes authenticity, and we discovered nothing that convinces of a forgery, still there is something suspicious about the parts that deal with Greek-Roman antiquity. We have no doubts about the honesty and frankness of the gentlemen Over de Linden and dr. Ottema. We are convinced that, if it would be a forgery, they have not participated in making it. We have doubts, but they are not strong enough to make us definitely reject the OLB."

We can anyway call this book remarkable. Some see the OLB as an idolization of the Frisian past. The book will remain subject of meticulous research, as long as it is hard to determine what part of old history is myth, saga, or embellished tradition. Yet anyone who has read the book will have to admit, that parts of the content are valuable. Therefore we fully agree with the following statement of the scholar from Deventer: "Although I have fallen in love with the book, I confidently look forward to the results of a scientific examination. Because, even if it would be convincingly refuted on historic grounds, it would still keep its great ethical value as an allegory, as fiction."

############

Het OERA LINDA Handschrift

Familie Over de Linden in Den Helder heeft een oud handschrift, waarvan schrift, taal en inhoud onbekend zijn. Het was overgeleverd van geslacht tot geslacht met de aanbeveling het zorgvuldig te bewaren, als een familie-erfstuk. De eigenaar vermoede dat het in Oud-Fries was geschreven en informatie over verre voorouders zou bevatten.

Toen Doctor Eelco Verwijs, archivaris-bibliothecaris van Fryslân, hiervan hoorde, lichtte hij de overheid in. Hij kreeg opdracht het te onderzoeken. Op 17 december 1867 gaf hij een verslag van zijn eerste conclusies. De eigenaar heeft hem toestemming gegeven het handschrift te transcriberen en vertalen.

Het was te danken aan de volhardende bezieling en zorg van Doctor Jan Ottema, dat de inhoud begrepen en vertaald werd. Hij deed uitvoerig verslag van zijn nauwkeurig onderzoek in een vergadering van het Fries Genootschap op 10 februari 1871. Dit verslag werd gedrukt en verspreid, en leidde tot een grote belangstelling voor dit merkwaardige stuk.

Volgens hem was de intussen gerezen twijfel aan de echtheid van het handschrift ongegrond. Hij zag het als een uiterst belangrijke bron voor oud-Friese geschiedenis, met geheel nieuwe informatie. Zijn conclusie: "We mogen aannemen dat dit geschrift, waarvan het eerste deel rond 600 BC is opgesteld, het oudste produkt (op Homerus en Hesiodus na) van Europese literatuur bevat. Het beschrijft een tot nu toe onbekende, eeuwenoude cultuur, met een ontwikkeling, beschaving, industrie, scheepvaart, handel, letterkunde en zuivere religieuze waarden. In onze voorstelling ging onze geschiedenis niet verder terug, dan tot de komst van Friso (rond 300 BC), de vermeende Friese stamvader. Hier ontdekken we echter een geschiedenis tot voorbij 2000 BC, ouder dan die van Griekenland en even oud als die van Israel."

Het manuscript is een kopie uit 1256, gemaakt door Hidde Oera Linda. Bij alle meningsverschillen over de echtheid en waarde ervan, was het onmogelijk daarover een goed oordeel te vellen, totdat het gepubliceerd werd in 1872. [...]

Publicatie leidde tot hevige discussies over de echtheid van het manuscript. Dr. Ottema gaf in 1873 een toelichting in 'Geschiedkundige Aantekeningen en Ophelderingen bij thet Oera Linda bok', en verdedigde het een jaar later in 'De Koninklijke Akademie en het Oera Linda boek'. Dr. A.T. Reitsma te Groningen bestudeerde het en presenteerde het resultaat van zijn kritische onderzoek in drie vergaderingen van het Fries Genootschap. Hij concludeerde dat het manuscript waarschijnlijk echt is, en van hoge historische waarde. In de laatste vergadering gaven ook de skeptici hun visie. Toen werd ook het handschrift zelf vertoond, zodat men zelf kon beoordelen of het een 13e eeuwse kopie kon zijn.

Het meest uitvoerige onderzoeksverslag tot nu toe werd in 1874 gepubliceerd onder de titel 'Naar aanleiding van het Oera Linda Bok'. De schrijver (prof. A.J. Vitringa) is duidelijk zeer geleerd en onpartijdig. De gedachte dat het boek een vervalsing zou zijn, gepleegd na 1853, toen de paalwoningen in het meer van Zürich werden ontdekt, beantwoordt hij met: "Wie zou de vervalser zijn? Niet de eerste de beste was tot zoiets in staat. Daarvoor zou noodzakelijk zijn een nauwkeurige kennis van de oudste Friese taal, waarvan een zeer beperkte woordenschat uit slechts enkele bronnen bestaat. Bovendien zou men moeten weten hoe die taal in de loop der tijd is veranderd. Er is namelijk een duidelijk verschil tussen het taalgebruik in de oudste en de jongste teksten van het handschrift. De vervalser zou een zeldzame historische en geografische kennis moeten hebben gehad. Jarenlange studie zou een onverbiddelijke voorwaarde zijn geweest en het schrijven van het vreemde letterschrift een zure arbeid. En waarvoor zou hij dat alles hebben gedaan? Eer? ... Vervalsers hebben een goede reden om hun naam geheim te houden. - Geld? ... Het was vooraf nauwelijks te verwachten dat publicatie enige winst zou opleveren. - Het genoegen om geleerden in de maling te nemen? ... Zou een door en door geleerd en talentvol man, zoals de maker moest zijn, zo'n offer van tijd en moeite over hebben voor zulk bedenkelijk genot? Dat alles is onvoorstelbaar."

"We staan hier dus voor een zonderling dilemma: Òf we laten ons beet nemen door een met grote toewijding tot stand gebracht maaksel van een geniale gek, òf een groot deel van de oude geschiedenis komt in een geheel ander licht te staan, waardoor een revolutie op dat gebied onvermijdelijk is."

"U denkt misschien nog aan geknutsel van een verveelde kloosterbroeder? Ook dit is uitgesloten. In het OLB komen een godsbegrip en ethiek voor, die onovertroffen waar en zuiver, anti-monniks en anti-theologisch zijn. Iemand die is opgevoed onder invloed van Katholieke of zelfs Protestante dogma's, heeft deze echt vrijzinnige en totaal onbevoordeelde gevoelens onmogelijk kunnen uiten."

En toch besloot deze geleerde met: "Hoewel niets echtheid uitsluit, en we niets hebben ontdekt dat van vervalsing overtuigt, toch is er iets dat onze argwaan wekt in de delen die te maken hebben met de Grieks-Romeinse oudheid." We hebben geen enkele twijfel aan de eerlijkheid en openhartigheid van de heren Over de Linden en dr. Ottema. We zij er stellig van overtuigd dat, indien er sprake zou zijn van een vervalsing, zij daar niet aan hebben meegewerkt. We hebben twijfels, maar deze zijn niet sterk genoeg om daarom het OLB definitief te verwerpen."

Het gaat in ieder geval om een merkwaardig boek. Sommigen zien in het OLB een verheerlijking van het Friese verleden. Het boek zal nauwkeurig onderzocht blijven worden, zolang het moeilijk is, om in oude volksgeschiedenis te bepalen wat mythe, sage of versierde overlevering is. Toch zal iedereen die het boek gelezen heeft moeten toegeven, dat delen van de inhoud waardevol zijn. We zijn het dan ook helemaal eens met het volgende oordeel van de Deventer geleerde: "Hoewel ik van het boek ben gaan houden, zie ik de resultaten van een wetenschappellijk onderzoek met vertrouwen tegemoet. Want, zelfs als het op historische gronden overtuigend zou worden weerlegd, dan toch zal het boek als allegorie, als fictie een hoge ethische waarde blijven behouden."

Jan Ottema and the Friesch Genootschap

2012-01-24T04:07:00.000-08:00

Translation:

Fiftyfirst report of the proceedings of the
Frisian Society of History, Archaeology and Linguistics in Leeuwarden,
over the year 1878-1879, given in the meeting of 18 September 1879.

[...]

C. Executive committee

In the general meeting of 12 September 1878, mr. W. Eekhoff's resignation as treasurer was accepted. He was replaced by mr. J.G. van Blom, while both periodically resigning board members dr. J.G. Ottema and mr. F.J.J. van Eijsinga were re-elected in their function.

Unfortunately, mr. Ottema could not hold this renewed position for long. Since 1832 he had been member of the Society, member of the board since 1843, initially as secretary, later since 1858 as general member. He died last March 19. The longlasting membership offered him many opportunities to be useful to the Society and mr. Ottema did not fail to do so. He always was and remained a very diligent member of the board, who was hardly ever absent at the weekly meetings, while not only the various issues of "the free Frisian" but also seperate publications of the Society (especially the 5 books 'Chonyken van Worp Tyaerda van Rinsumageest') are incontestable witnesses of his high efficacy. May his memory stimulate us to continue the path chosen by him.

He will have to be replaced in this meeting.

Source: http://images.tresoar.nl/wumkes/periodieken/vfg/vfg_1878-79_51.pdf

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

From December 1870 till his death, that is more than 8 years, dr. Ottema has spent researching, translating, publishing and defending the OLB.

To him the book was sacred.

While the 1875 publication 'Friesche Oudheden' from the Frisian Society, was still very positive about the OLB (see translation in 11 parts that I posted in the last few days), it is emphatically not even mentioned in Ottema's obituary, only four years later.

Note that the full name of the Society is: Frisian Society of History, Archaeology and Linguistics.

By leaving the OLB out of his obituary, they not only proved their disrespect to Ottema who had been a member for 47 years, but to history in general.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

How the Denmarks were lost ~ translating experiment

2012-01-12T04:46:00.000-08:00

Original manuscript page 79-80

With my provisional, experimental translations, I aim at staying as close to the original words as possible, rather than creating a smooth, modern, easily readable text. I like to invite and seduce the reader, to try and read straight from the original manuscript, because in any translation, some of the poetic beauty and ambiguity will get lost.

For a translation in better English, see Sandbach (1876) or the second edition of Survivors of the Great Tsunami (2011) by Alewyn Raubenheimer.

THIT STAT IN AL VSA BURGA.
HO VSA DÉNA MARKA FÁRA VS VRLÉREN GVNGON.
1600 ÀND 2 JÉR NÉI ALDLAND VRGVNGEN IS.

Dit staat in al onze burgen.
Hoe onze Dénamarken voor ons verloren gingen.
1600 en 2 jaar na Aldland vergaan is.

This stands in all our burgs.
How our Dénamarks were lost for us.
1600 and 2 years after Aldland was gone.

THRVCH WODINS DOR ÀND DERTENHÉD WAS THENE MÁGÍ BÁS WRDEN OVIR SKÉNLANDIS ASTAR DÉL.
WRA BERGA ÀND WRN SÉ NE TVRADE HI NAVT NE KVMA.

Door Wodins ‘dor- en dertenheid’*, was de Magí baas geworden over Skénlands oosterdeel.
Over de bergen en over zee durfde hij niet komen.

(*DERTEN = dartel: speels, springerig; DOR op p.68 ook gebruikt in combinatie met DVM: dom)

Through Wodin’s ‘arid- and wantonness’, the Magí had become master of Skénland’s eastern part.
Over the mountains and over sea he dared not come.

THJU MODER NILDET NAVT WÉR.HA.
HJA SPREK ÀNDE KÉTH
IK SJA NÉN FRÉSE AN SINA WÉPNE MEN WEL VMBE THA SKÉNLANDER WÉR TO NIMMANDE THRVCH DAM HJA BASTERED ÀND VRDÉREN SIND.

De Moeder wilde het niet weer hebben.
Zij sprak en verkondigde:
“Ik zie geen vrees aan zijn wapens, maar wel om de Skénlanders weer te nemen, omdat zij verbasterd en verdorven zijn.”

The Mother didn’t want to have it back.
She spoke and declared:
“I see no fear in his weapons, but in taking the Skénlanders back again, because they are bastardized and wasted.”

VPPA MÉNA ACHT TOCHTE MÀN AL ÉN.
THÉRVMBE IST IM LÉTEN.

Op de algemene acht (vergadering) dacht men al één.
Daarom is’t hem gelaten.

At the general assembly all thought as one.
Therefore it was let (left) to him.

GRÁT 100 JÉR LÉDEN BIJONDON THA DÉNE MARKAR TO WANDELJA MITH HJAM.
HJA JÉVON HJAM ÍSERE WÉPNE ÀND RÉDSKIP
THÉR FORI WANDELDON HJA GOLDEN SÍRHÉDON BIJUNKA KÁPER ÀND ÍSER JRTHA.

Groot 100 jaar geleden begonnen de Dénemarkers te wandelen (handelen) met hen.
Zij gaven hen ijzeren wapens en gereedschap.
Daarvoor ‘wandelden’ zij gouden ‘sierheden’ benevens koper- en ijzer-‘aarde’ (erts).

Great 100 years ago the Dénemarkers began to deal with them.
They gave them iron weapons and tools.
For that they dealt golden ornaments, as well as copper- and iron-‘earth’ (ore).

THJU MODER SAND BODON ÀND RÉD ER HJA SKOLDE THJU WANDEL FÁRA LÉTA.
THÉR WÉRE FRÉSE SÉIDE HJU FORI HJARA SÉDUM {80} ÀND BITHAM HJA HJARA SÉDE VRLÉREN THÀN SKOLDE HJA ÁK HJARA FRYDON VRLJASA.

De Moeder zond boden en raadde hun, zij zouden de ‘wandel’ varen laten.
Er was vrees, zei ze, voor hun zeden, en bijdat zij hun zeden verloren, dan zouden zij ook hun vrede (vrijheid?) verliezen.

The Mother sent messengers and advised them that they should let go this trade.
There was fear, she said, for their morals and with losing their morals, they would also lose their freedom.

MEN THA DÉNEMARKAR NÉDE NARNE ÁRA NEI.
HJA NILDE NAVT BIGRIPPA THÀT HJARA SÉDE VRBRÚDE KOSTE
THÉRVMBE NE MELDON HJA HJA NAVT.
TO LÔNGA LESTA BROCHTON HJA HJARA AJNE WÉPNE ÀND LIFTOCHTA WÉI.

Maar de Dénemarkers hadden nergens oren naar.
Zij wilden niet begrijpen, dat hun zeden verbruiden konden.
Daarom melden zij haar niet (luisterden ze niet naar haar).
Ten langen leste brachten zij hunne eigen wapens en leeftochten weg.

But the Dénemarkers didn’t have ears for anything.
They wouldn’t understand that their morals could perish.
Therefore they paid no attention to her.
At long last they brought away their own weapons and victuals.

MEN THÀT KWÁD WROCHT HJARA GÉJA.
HJARA LICHÉMA WRDON BILÁDEN MITH BLIK ÀND SKIN MEN HJARA ARKA SPYNTON ÀND SKVRA WRDON LÉTOCH.

Maar dat kwaad wrochte haar verzoening.
Hun lichamen werden beladen met blink en schijn, maar hun arken, spinden en schuren werden ledig.

But that evil brought its atonement.
Their bodies were laden with bling and shine but their arks, stores and sheds became empty.

KREK HONDRED JÉR EFTERE DÉI THAT ET FORMA SKIP MITH LIFTOCHTA FONA KÁD FÁREN WAS. KÉM ERMODE ÀND LOK THRVCH THA ANDERNA BINNA.

Correct honderd jaar na de dag dat het eerste schip met leeftochten van de kade gevaren was, kwam armoede en slot door de vensters binnen.

Correctly hundred years after the day that the first ship with provisions had sailed from the coast, poverty and lock came inside through the windows.

HONGER SPRÉDE SINA WJVKA AND STRÉK VPPET LAND DEL.
TWISPALT HLIP STOLTE INOVERE STRÉTA ÀND FORTH TO THA HÚSA IN.
LJAFDE NE KV NÉN STEK LÔNGER NAVT FINDA ÀND ÉNDRACHT RUN ÉWÉI.

Honger spreidde zijn wieken en streek op het land neer.
Tweespalt liep trots door de straten en voorts de huizen in.
Liefde kon niet langer een stek vinden en eendracht rende (liep) weg.

Hunger spread her wings and came down on the land.
Dissension walked proudly over the streets and further into the houses.
Love no longer could find a place, and unity ran away.

THAT BERN WILDE ÉTA FON SINA MÀM ÀND THJU MÀM HÉDE WEL SÍRHÉDON THA NÉN ÉTA.
THA WIVA KÉMON TO HJARA MANNA. THISSA GVNGON NÉI THA GRÉVA THA GRÉVA NÉDON SELVA NAWET OF HILDONT SKUL.

Het kind wilde eten van zijn mama, en de mama had wel sieraden, doch geen eten.
De wijven kwamen tot hun mannen, deze gingen naar de graven, de graven hadden zelf niets of hielden het schuil.

The child wanted to eat from its mom and the mom had no food, only jewels.
The wives went to their husbands, these went to the counts; the counts themselves had nothing to give, or hid it away.

NW MOST MÀN THA SYRHÉDON VRSELLA.
MEN THAHWILA THA STJURAR THÉR MÉI WÉI BRIT WÉRON KÉM FROST ÀND LÉI.N PLÔNK DEL VPPA SÉ. ÀND WRA STRÉTE.
THA FROST THJU BRIGGE RÉD HÉDE STOP WÁKANDON THÉR {81} WR TO.T LAND UT ÀND VRÉD KLÍWADE VPPER SÉTEL.

Nu moest men de sieraden verkopen.
Maar terwijl de sturen daarmee weggebracht waren, kwam de vorst en legde een plank neer op de zee en over de straat.
Toen vorst de brug gereed had, stapte waakzaamheid daarover het land uit, en verraad klom op de zetel.

Now they had to sell the jewels.
But while the sailors were brought away with them, frost came and laid a plank over the sea and the straits.
When frost had the bridge ready, vigilance stepped over it to leave the land and treachery climbed up the seat.

[to be continued]

UM Forum posts ~ part 18 (december 15, 2011 to january 3, 2012)

2012-01-07T07:37:00.000-08:00

Posted 15 December 2011 - 03:00 PM

Knul, on 13 December 2011 - 04:53 AM, said:
Met de komst van Friso (ca. 300 v. Chr.) is voor het eerst sprake van stalen kraanbogen (catapulten).

I found the fragment.

[198/12]
HWÉR AN MÀN ÉNE STÉLEN KRÁN.BOGE MOCHT FÀSTIGJA
[O+S p.239]
waaraan men eene stalen kraanboog kon bevestigen
upon which steel crossbows could be fixed (should be singular)

(Jensma (2006) has the same translation as Ottema.)

But how do we know that "STÉL" had the same meaning as our "steel"?

######

Posted 15 December 2011 - 03:25 PM

Abramelin, on 12 December 2011 - 10:57 AM, said:
And wherever you look, "vampires" in the meaning of "blood-sucking undead people" appears to be a rather recent invention.

From the context in the OLB it's clear that the word is about something "blood-sucking", but not that it is about "undead people".

That the word originally will have meant bloodsucking worm (pyr), just makes more sense than that it suddenly was invented by someone who put some random letters together.

Whether it was made out of VAM + PYR or out of VAMP + YR, when we don't even know what the root-words mean, we cannot know how old the word really is.

######

Posted 15 December 2011 - 03:33 PM

Abramelin, on 15 December 2011 - 01:40 PM, said:
The word "VAMPYRA" (or similar spellings) doesn't show up with the meaning of 'bloodsucking undead/ghoul' anywhere before the 18th century.

Once more, the OLB doesn't suggest "undead/ghoul", only bloodsucking.

Quote
Let me try to give a more modern example.
Nowadays you hear someone say (and also here in the Netherlands) "Cool !!" when they like something very much or when they think something is really great and so on.
The original meaning of the word "cool" was something like "somewhat cold", or "not warm".

Your example doesn't work, because we don't know a more original meaning of Vampire, other than a bloodsucking creature (bat or undead).

"Voor het Slavische woord, dat voor het eerst is geattesteerd in een Oudrussische tekst uit de 11e eeuw, zijn diverse intern-Slavische etymologieën voorgesteld, maar velen nemen ontlening aan uit een Turkse taal." http://www.etymologi...efwoord/vampier

=> "For the Slavic word, that was first attested in an Oldrussian text from the 11th century, various intern-Slavic etymologies were suggested, but many assume adoption from a Turkish language."

######

Posted 15 December 2011 - 03:36 PM

Abramelin, on 15 December 2011 - 03:31 PM, said:
Maybe Bram Stoker read the OLB?

Possible.

His "Dracula" was published 25 years after Sandbach's translation.

######

Posted 15 December 2011 - 03:44 PM

Abramelin, on 15 December 2011 - 02:10 PM, said:

Also note Tanfana/ Tamfana.

A relation with OLB's "T.ANFANG" (the beginning; p.45) seems obvious.

######

Posted 15 December 2011 - 03:49 PM

Abramelin, on 15 December 2011 - 03:06 PM, said:
I don't think you will have to worry about "steel":
http://www.etymologi...refwoord/staal1
It's a typical (Old) Germanic word.
But a nice find anyway.

Thanks.

######

Posted 15 December 2011 - 03:53 PM

Abramelin, on 15 December 2011 - 03:45 PM, said:
The word itself was older, but meant something not specifically connected with bloodsucking.

I agree that it was older, but why do you think it was not connected with bloodsucking?

######

Posted 15 December 2011 - 04:11 PM

Abramelin, on 15 December 2011 - 04:02 PM, said:
Because whatever we all found about the origin of the word had nothing to do with bloodsucking.

I must have missed that.

Can you repeat or link to that?

######

Posted 15 December 2011 - 04:33 PM

Abramelin, on 15 December 2011 - 04:16 PM, said:
"fon t-anfang" would in Dutch be "van de aanvang", or as we could also write it: "van d'aanvang".
I don't think this has anything to do with some goddess.

Why do you add "fon"? It's just "TANFANG"; the beginning.

That Tanfana would be a goddess is only a 19th century assumption.

######

Posted 15 December 2011 - 04:46 PM

Abramelin, on 15 December 2011 - 04:32 PM, said:
Anyway, the oldest form (from Old Church Slavonic) is OPIRI.

That is your interpretation, but the text does not say so.

It also doesn't say or suggest that "the word had nothing to do with bloodsucking", as you claimed.

######

Posted 15 December 2011 - 04:57 PM

Abramelin, on 15 December 2011 - 04:42 PM, said:
Looks like a goddess to me, well, read the Wiki page or read Tacitus: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanfana
And I added FON because I wanted to show the two words T-ANFANG in their context.

That's what Grimm thought too, but it's not more than an assumption.

The context is:

[045/09]
HWAT HIR BOPPA STÀT SEND THI TÉKNA FON THÀT JOL.
THÀT IS THÀT FORMA SINNE BILD WR.ALDA.S.
AK FON T.ANFANG JEFTHA T.BIJIN WÉRUT TID KÉM

Perfect theme for a temple.

######

Posted 15 December 2011 - 05:06 PM

Abramelin, on 15 December 2011 - 04:50 PM, said:
In whatever source I read the etymology, it most always ends with 'witch' as the original meaning.

I only see the one you quoted: 'said by Slavic linguist Franc Miklošič to be ultimtely from Kazan Tatar ubyr "witch,"';
it's a theory by one single linguist, without any source for that quote.

Quote
I said: "Anyway, the oldest form (from Old Church Slavonic) is OPIRI."
1734, from Fr. vampire or Ger. Vampir (1732, in an account of Hungarian vampires), from Hung. vampir, from O.C.S. opiri (cf. Serb. vampir, Bulg. vapir, Ukrainian uper), said by Slavic linguist Franc Miklošič to be ultimtely from Kazan Tatar ubyr "witch,"

Didn't you notice that to the Hung. and O.C.S. version no year is added?

An example of how you read what you want to read.

Be more skeptical.

######

Posted 15 December 2011 - 05:09 PM

Abramelin, on 15 December 2011 - 04:42 PM, said:
It's not TANFANG, it's T_ANFANG (3d line below the wheels).
Two words.

Yes, just like "World" (WR.ALDA).

######

Posted 15 December 2011 - 05:22 PM

Abramelin, on 15 December 2011 - 05:16 PM, said:
No way.
The WR in WR.ALDA is not an article like the T in T_ANFANG: "The Beginning (De Aanvang/ D'AANVANG)

You said "two words".
I said "yes, just like..."

But what is your point?

######

Posted 15 December 2011 - 05:30 PM

On page 45 you see that they placed 6 letters around the JOL;

W R A L D A
T A N F A Ng (NG was one letter)
T B I J I N

Apparently and understandably, "THE beginning" (T.ANFANG or Tanfang or Tanfana?) was something sacred, something mysterious.

Like I said, a perfect theme for a temple.

Anyway, I'm not the first to make this link. I think Jensma wrote about it too.

#####

Posted 16 December 2011 - 12:44 PM

Abramelin, on 10 December 2011 - 12:22 AM, said:
Come on, show a screenshot of that page.
You do know how to do it.

No, I dont't, thought I need special software for that.

Can you explain me how to make screenshots (or download software for that)?

######

Posted 16 December 2011 - 01:15 PM

Abramelin, on 16 December 2011 - 12:53 PM, said:
The first thing to do is of course open a webpage, and then press [PrintScreen] or whatever it is called on your keyboard.

Great!
Thanks a lot.

######

Posted 16 December 2011 - 03:01 PM

Otharus, on 10 December 2011 - 12:07 AM, said:
In this book, on page 2-3 of "Van Vroonen" (or 273-274 of 755 in the PDF), a fragment about "Attelantida" (Atlantis in a spelling that does not yet exist on the web, as far I could find with Google).

"Sodanig een History en Lant-beschryvers belydenisse behoort te wesen, (als gesegt is) want wy hier inne niet na en 'volgen de luyden (hoewel van groote geleertheyd) die werk gesocht hebben, omme te beschryven een Utopia, als den verstandigen Thomas Mores, eertyts Cancelier van Engeland, ofte van 't Eylant Attelantida, daar den Jesuit en nauw doorsnuffelende Josephus Acosta van verhaalt, het welke eenige hondert mylen groot, ontrent de barbarische kusten gelegen hadde, en in de grooten Oceaan, die ongrondelyk diep is, verdronken soude zyn, 't gene met reden men Nergens Land noemen mocht: ofte en volgen ook niet den voortreffeyken werelt wysen Plato, om te verhalen van een Stad, die noyt te vinden heeft geweest, hoewel datter een sulken Stad in des Aardryks ront wel behoorde, ofte hadde mogen zyn. Want, het gene hier verhandelt sal worden, is van een Stad ofte Vestinge, die haar wesen heeft gehad in der waarheyd, hare handelinge en doen in erusthaftigheyd, haar voorspoet in Scheepvaart en Koophandel, haar bloey en 't vallen in den verderffelyken Oorlog."

As requested:

######

Posted 16 December 2011 - 06:01 PM

Brainwave

- A word for king in OLB is FORST (Dutch: vorst, German: Fürst), it means "most in front" or "first" (Dutch: voorst)
- The Dutch word "vooraanstaand" means "prominent", literally "standing-in-front".
- One of the most important cities of Westfriesland (until it was destroyed ca. 1300 AD) was Vroonen or Vronen.
- In OLB, a prominent burg in Westflyland was FORANA. All translaters assume that Vronen was ment.
- Verwijs suggested that Vronen is derived from FRAN (sacred, pious; Dutch: vroom).
- I think it makes sense that Franeker and France (and Verona?) are derived from the same word.

=> Did FORANA change into FRANA?

Was "vroom" originally "vooraan"?

######

Posted 16 December 2011 - 06:30 PM

Abramelin, on 16 December 2011 - 06:15 PM, said:
However, Vronen, according the oldest known reference from 1083, was called "Vranla".

Vranla = Vroon-loo; Vroner bos (forest of Vronen)

######

Posted 17 December 2011 - 06:58 PM

According to "Frisia" by Hamconius (1609), the original Frisian coat of arms had water-lily leaves ("pompebladen") in it.

Why 'pomp'-leaves?

Wiki [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Friesland] has no answer:

The Frisian flag, is the official flag of the Dutch province of Friesland. It consists of four blue and three white diagonal stripes; in the white stripes are a total of seven red pompeblêden, stylised heart-shaped leaves of yellow water-lily.

The seven red pompeblêden are a reference to the Frisian "sea countries" in the Middle Ages: independent regions along the coast from Alkmaar to the Weser who were allied against the Vikings. There were never precisely seven distinct rulers, but the number seven probably has the connotation "many."

Since the 11th century a coat of arms with pompeblêdden is known. Evidence for this lies within verses of the Gudrunlied. Round 1200 Scandinavian coats of arms reveal many traces of water-lilies and hearts, found often in combination with images of lions.

15th century books on heraldry show that two armorial bearings were derived from the early ones: a coat of arms showing lions and seven pompeblêdden transformed into little blocks, the other being the arms with the seven now known lilies on stripes.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

The following fragment of Oera Linda Book could explain why 'pomp'-leaves had a very important meaning to the old Frisians:

[OLB p.064/11] ca. 1630 BC; KÀLTA's speech:

SVNUM ÀND TOGHATRUM FRYA.S.
I WÉT WEL THÀT WI INNA LERSTE TÍD FÚL LEK ÀND BREK LÉDEN HÀVE.
THRVCHDAM THA STJURAR NAVT LÔNGER KVME VMB.VS SKRIF.FILT TO VRSELLA.
[...]
ANDA ÔRA SYDE THÉRE SKELDA HWÉR HJA TOMET THA FÉRT FON ALLE SÉA HÀVE
THÉR MÁKATH HJA HJVD.DÉGON SKRIF.FILT FON POMPA.BLÉDAR
THÉRMITH SPARATH HJA LINNENT UT ÀND KÀNATH HJA VS WEL MISTE.
NÉIDAM THÀT SKRIF.FILT MÁKJA. NV ALTI VS GRÁTESTE BIDRIV WÉST.IS.
SÁ HETH THJU MODER WILT THAT MÀN.ET VS LÉRA SKOLDE.

Improved English translation (as Sandbach had too many errors):

Sons and daughters of Frya,
you know well that we in last times have suffered much loss and misery
because the sailors no longer come to buy our writing-felt
[...]
On the other side of the Scheldt, where they almost have the trade of all seas,
there they nowadays make writing-felt of water-lily leaves.
With that they save linen and no longer need us (lit.: can they miss us).
Because the making of writing-felt has always been our greatest trade,
the mother willed that one should teach us

So first "SKRIF-FILT" was used, made of "LINNENT", later paper made of "POMPA-BLÉDAR".

In the OLB, a word for 'paper' is used only once, as "PAMPÍER" [letter Hidde (1256 AD) line 11]:

VMBE HJA NAVT TO VRLYSA HÀB IK RA VP WRLANDISK PAMPÍER VVRSKRÉVEN.
In order not to lose them, I copied them on foreign paper. (Sandbach)

The word "paper" in modern European languages never has a "M" before the second "P" (or "B"):

paber - Estonian
páipéar - Irish
papel - Spanish, Portuguese
paper - English
папир - Servian
папера - White-Russian
paperi - Finnish
papier - Dutch, Frisian, German, French, Polish, Slovakian
papir - Danish, Norwegian, Kroatian, Ukrainian (папір)
papír - Hungarian, Czech
papirja - Slovenian
papīrs - Latvian
papper - Swedish
pappír - Icelandic
papur - Welsch
popierius - Lithuanian

But in various Frisian texts, from before and after publication of the OLB, varieties with an "M" were used:

pompier: 1807, 1821, 1834, 1864, 1867, 1874, 1880, 1885, 1889, 1895, 1896 (2x), 1901, 1902, 1913, 1920, 1923, 1935, 1946
pampier: 1816, 1824, 1882
pumpier: 1855, 1871

1807 Nim dizze rijgels oon, nim oon dit lyts pompier. E. NAUTA, rymbrief, (1)
1816 De hudde Wijn dij hie wat proesd / En onder de Pampieren poesd. P.G. DEKETH, pijtter, strofenr. 46
1821 (ca.) Yn schier pompier berolle. E. HALB, freun
1824 Ho earm binne wij oon marcken, omme for-schaette, heegjende in leegjende luwden ... op it pampier mielje to kinnen. R. POSTHUMUS, prieuwcke, XIII
1834 Doe grou pompier: dat spielde er eak al gou wer ôaf. E. HALB, lapekoer III, 402
1855 Set naut dalik ol huet dy în 't sin sciet uppa 't pumpier. H. SYTSTRA, Iduna, 140
1864 De diakens ... founen okkersneins f 4000 oan Russisk pompier în 'e budel. W. DYKSTRA, nysbode, nr. 3, 3
1867 Tsjinwirdich barre de boeren al gau ris pompierkes for hiar bûter, mar destiids faek goudjild. W. DYKSTRA, wever, 20
1871 Ik (jow) jou alles în biwar end jy jowe my up libben end dead der en lîts pumpierke fen în 't bywêsen fen jou wîf end soan. G. COLMJON, Sw., 54
1874 Hy (wier) mei falske pompieren ... wer în 't lând komd. P. BLEEKSMA, F.m.n., 159
1880 Om it noazblieden, as dat al to stjelpich giet, to stuitsjen, moat me grou pompier kôgje ef in string keulsce side om 'e hals dwaen. H.G. v.d. VEEN, wrald, 48
1882 Pieter (is) oan de doar ... in greate rol pampier ûnder de earm. P.J. TROELSTRA, wiersizzery, (6)
1885 Yn forskate hûzen hinget in great pompier efter in glês mei in swarte list er om hinne ... op dat pompier stiet ... in forklearringe. M.P. TROELSTRA, Sw., 59
1889 Bûrman naem syn boekje op, der der in pompierke út krige hie, in Russiske coupon. J.D. BAARDA, forsin, 47
1895 De Eastenrykse pompieren, dy mochten wy wol fen 'e hân dwaen en keapje er wer Spaenske foar. T.W. SYTSTRA, F.m.n., 152
1896 It rint yn 'e pompieren. W. DYKSTRA, volksl. II, 388
1896 Dy faem is op skien pompier - 'heeft geen vrijer aan de hand'. W. DYKSTRA, volksl. II, 311
1901 For in tachtich goune silverjild (hie) (er) tsjin pompier wiksele. T.G. v.d. MEULEN, Sw., 94
1902 In oaren-ien, oars ek wol yn steat om moai dúdlik syn tinzen op 't pompier to bringen, skreau djarp for doarp. J. f.'e GAESTMAR, F.m.n., 187
1913 Ik hab jimme gâns to skriuwen, mar ik hab soks net wollen mei pompier en inket. E.B. FOLKERTSMA, Y.ú.e.t., 72
1920 De bank hoegde dos net safolle munt yn kas to hawwen as der pompier yn omrin wier. P.T. ZWART, Heit., 36
1923 Der wirdt yn dizze wrâld nearne sa folle liichd as op 't pompier. J.P. WIERSMA, arbeiders-jongfolk, 7
1935 Hjir lizze noch wol in pear pompierkes op 't taffeltsje. S. BOUMA, wolken, 6
1946 Men (sit) efter it swarte pompier by in lyts ljochtsje mei it daei om to kliemen. W. KOK, koarstekoeke, 80

Source: http://gtb.inl.nl/iWDB/search?actie=article&wdb=WFT&id=74583.re.d1e4142723&lemma=pampier

(Note that E. Halbertsma (1821, 1834) spelled: "pompier")

If the OLB story is right it would explain two things:

1) why the Frisian flag is made up of 'pomp'-leaves
2) why the most common old-Frisian spelling of paper was "pompier"

If the OLB was created in the 19th century, its author(s) must have been an etymology fanatic. The etymology of "pompier" seems obvious, yet nothing is said about it in the OLB, and the only time the word for paper is used, it is spelled as "pampíer", while "pompier" would be more pure.

I think this could be an important clue.

######

Posted 17 December 2011 - 09:51 PM

Knul, on 17 December 2011 - 08:39 PM, said:
Wrong again Otharus.

Again? You have not corrected me one single time yet, while you are constantly blundering, for example:

Quote
In the OLB and in Klaas Kolyn the Frisian flag is brown.

A brown shield is mentioned once in the OLB [p.086/21], but it doesn't say what the meaning was.

######

Posted 17 December 2011 - 10:02 PM

Abramelin, on 17 December 2011 - 08:07 PM, said:
Otharus, you are suggesting that, because the Fryans/Frisians used these water-lily leaves to make paper, they mixed or confused two words: paper & pomp(eblêden)?

No, I think the original word was POMPIER, named after the leaves.

And I think radical; the papyrus plant might be named after the use they made of it; to make writing-'pompier', a word that by then had been bastardised into "papier".

The modern Frisian dictionary has "papier", because they assumed what Knul has just posted, that the "m" was a bastardisation.

I don't think so.

We still have to find out why the leaves were so important to become the symbol of the Frisian identity, if not the ancient paper production that will have given them a great trading position (as the Kàlta-Minerva tale explains).

Quote
Btw: do you have any idea what these "waak-sterren" or OLB "wak-stara" (watchstars) really are??

I think they just believed that the spirit of someone great would go to 'heaven', to live on a 'star' (in Freya's case Venus) and watch over us (at night), something like a guardian angel. All the stars in the sky would represent the spirits of various ancestors.

######

Posted 17 December 2011 - 10:25 PM

Otharus, on 17 December 2011 - 06:58 PM, said:
...THÀT WI INNA LERSTE TÍD FÚL LEK ÀND BREK LÉDEN HÀVE
...that we in last times have suffered much loss and misery

A more literal translation would be: "leak and break".

######

Posted 17 December 2011 - 10:38 PM

Abramelin, on 17 December 2011 - 10:19 PM, said:
The -M- was a bastardisation?
What about the -L- ?

Yes, both letters may have been lost from the original "plomp".

PLOMP => POMP => PAMP => PAP

Quote
But then what was the 'watchstar' of Finda?
And have you any idea why Lyda didn't ascend to some watchstar?

While Frya may really have been the 'Mother' (queen) before the 'big flood', the characters Finda and Lyda may have been made up for the creation myth, just to explain the different main (known) races.

I don't think the Fryans will have bothered about the wakestars of Finda and Lyda.

######

Posted 18 December 2011 - 09:41 AM

Knul, on 18 December 2011 - 02:55 AM, said:
Wrong again Otharus. It's not me. but the WNT, which is the official dictionary of Dutch language.

I said you posted about it, not that it was your theory.

I know you had it from that dictionary.

If a new overold text is discovered (or accepted to be authentic), much of that "official dictionary" may have to be re-edited.

######

Posted 18 December 2011 - 09:42 AM

Knul, on 18 December 2011 - 02:58 AM, said:
Wrong again Otharus. Or should I say PLOMP > PLOP !

Not everything you don't understand is wrong, Knul.

######

Posted 18 December 2011 - 10:11 AM

Knul, on 18 December 2011 - 03:00 AM, said:
Wrong again Otharus. Lek en brek is a standard modern Frisian expression, meaning shortage of anything. Expression: Der is gjin minske sunder lek of brek - there is no one without shortcomings.

Good to know that the expression is still in use, but what I said is that a more literal translation would be "leak and break".

Translations "LEK AND BREK"

Ottema (1876): "schade en gebrek" (damage/loss & lack)
Sandbach (1876): "loss and misery"
Jensma (2006): "gemis en gebrek" (lack/loss & lack)
De Heer (2008) as Ottema

I like my translations as literal as possible and would therefore choose: "leak/lack & break" or in Dutch "lek & gebrek/breuk".

Beautiful metaphor.

######

Posted 18 December 2011 - 10:19 AM

Knul, on 18 December 2011 - 03:49 AM, said:
The notorious date 2193 BC or 2194 BC is copied from the Friesche Almanak...

How do you know?

######

Posted 18 December 2011 - 10:42 AM

The Puzzler, on 18 December 2011 - 04:21 AM, said:
Here's a word that retains the pamp - that is 'pamphlet' - a piece of paper.
...
Pampier in French seems to gel with pamplet here - the pamp is always there - but does it come from the term for pumpkin? or as the word pompe bledar? Which means what literally? Bleeding heart or water lily leaf?

Yes a relation between "pamphlet" and the Oldfrisian word for paper, "pampier" would make sense.
(I know traditional etymology suggests something else.)

In the OLB the new 'writing-felt' (paper) was made of POMPA-BLÉDAR, in Dutch pompebladen; waterlily-leaves.

Pumpkin-leaves sounds similar, and it is possible that the word pumpkin (dutch Pompoen) is derived from oldfrisian POMP, but it is a different plant, and therefore not a good translation. I think Sandbach was simply mistaken.

The association with the heart-shape (or something else) will have helped to make the leaf a national symbol.

Friese vlag, 1971 by Lode Pemmelaar (1942-1997)

######

Posted 18 December 2011 - 10:44 AM

Knul, on 18 December 2011 - 10:39 AM, said:
Ask Abramelin and read my posts.

Reading your posts once is more than enough. I know you both don't know.

If you want to be taken seriously, you should stop presenting your beliefs as if they are facts.

######

Posted 18 December 2011 - 11:56 AM

Knul, on 18 December 2011 - 10:50 AM, said:
Wrong again Otharus ! lek is not leak in the expression lek and brek, but English lack, brek is not breuk but gebrek.

I think it's pretty obvious that LEK, LEAK and LACK are etymologically related, as well as BREK, GEBREK, BREAK and BREUK.

But I will leave the conclusion to every individual reader.

######

Posted 18 December 2011 - 11:59 AM

Knul, on 18 December 2011 - 10:55 AM, said:
The facts speak for themselves. There is no Otharus who can change them.

I asked you to present these 'facts'.

That the OLB dating of the flood would be based on old almanacs is an assumption, not a fact.

######

Posted 18 December 2011 - 12:10 PM

Knul, on 18 December 2011 - 11:01 AM, said:
There is no Oldfrisian word pampyr, only papier.

There is, but I ment 'old school'-Frisian:

Otharus, on 17 December 2011 - 06:58 PM, said:
pampier: 1816, 1824, 1882

1816 De hudde Wijn dij hie wat proesd / En onder de Pampieren poesd. P.G. DEKETH, pijtter, strofenr. 46
1824 Ho earm binne wij oon marcken, omme for-schaette, heegjende in leegjende luwden ... op it pampier mielje to kinnen. R. POSTHUMUS, prieuwcke, XIII
1882 Pieter (is) oan de doar ... in greate rol pampier ûnder de earm. P.J. TROELSTRA, wiersizzery, (6)

Source: http://gtb.inl.nl/iW...3&lemma=pampier

######

Posted 18 December 2011 - 12:12 PM

Knul, on 18 December 2011 - 11:10 AM, said:
Your selfmade etymologies can not be taken seriously.

Not without an IQ, indeed.

######

Posted 18 December 2011 - 12:19 PM

Knul, on 18 December 2011 - 11:41 AM, said:
This did not happen in the case of the OLB, because no one could proof its authenticity. On the contrary its so-called authenticity has been proven false. Not just on linguistic grounds, but for many reasons.

All of this so-called proof was systematically refuted in this threat.

Quote
All of them show, that the narrative has been composed in the mid 19th century and that the hoax was made of it by Over de Linden and Stadermann.

Please inform us when you have found a specialist who takes your theory seriously.

######

Posted 18 December 2011 - 02:27 PM

Knul, on 18 December 2011 - 02:12 PM, said:
So when you speak about Oldfrisian, we must believe that you mean old school Frisian (whatever that is).

I gave my source. I don't know a clear definition of "Oldfrisian".

"In slang, old school can refer to anything that is from an earlier era. Old school refers to something that is fairly old and not very recent." (wiki)

######

Posted 18 December 2011 - 03:35 PM

Ah, you were first...

Abramelin, on 18 December 2011 - 02:57 PM, said:
"with a small house upon it out of which they look at the stars"

The original fragment [106/16]:

EN LÍTH HUSKE THÉR VPPA. HWÁNA MAN THA STÀRA BISJATH

######

Posted 18 December 2011 - 03:38 PM

Abramelin, on 18 December 2011 - 03:15 PM, said:
It's true that I don't know how that date of 2194 BC came into being, but let's say I am busy trying to find out.

I respect that and am interested.

######

Posted 18 December 2011 - 03:43 PM

Abramelin, on 18 December 2011 - 03:19 PM, said:
I have also wondered why those (national) yellow flowers changed into red and looked like hearts.
Are there still old flags/emblems around with these flowers still being yellow?

Not the flowers are used, but the leaves.

######

Posted 18 December 2011 - 03:51 PM

This is Radboud with shield, by Pier Winsemius in "Chronique ofte Historische geschiedenisse van Vrieslant" (1662):

######

Posted 18 December 2011 - 04:02 PM

LOL

######

Posted 18 December 2011 - 04:56 PM

First page of Die cronycke van Hollandt, Zeelandt ende Vrieslant, better known as Divisiekroniek (1519) by Cornelius Aurelius.

Transcription by Karin Tilmans (http://www.karintilmans.nl/pdf/dk1-29.pdf):

"Die Chronyk van Hollandt, Zeelandt
ende Vriesland, beghinnende van Adams
tyden, tot die geboerte ons Heren Jhesu,
voortgaende tot den jare M CCCCC ende
xvij. Met den rechten oerspronc, hoe Hollandt
eerst begrepen ende bewoent is gheweest van
den Troyanen. Ende is inhoudende van die herto
gen van Beyeren, Henegouwen ende Bourgongen;
die tijt dat si an 't graefscap geweest hebben;
met die cronike der biscoppen van Uutrecht,
seer suverlic geëxtendeert ende in 't lange verhaelt."

Translation of underlined fragment:

"With the right origin, how Holland was first taken and inhabited by the Trojans"

######

Posted 18 December 2011 - 05:32 PM

For the record, "Mare Mediterraneu" a.k.a. "Middel Zee" in 1519 Divisiekroniek (1st division, 5th capittel, p.004v):

######

Posted 20 December 2011 - 12:05 PM

Abramelin, on 20 December 2011 - 12:52 AM, said:
Just in case some of you forgot the Frisians venerated Maria above God or Jesus.

From (page 279-280): "Verhandeling over het Westland" (1844) Buddingh
(sorry too busy to translate)

######

Posted 20 December 2011 - 12:28 PM

Knul, on 19 December 2011 - 06:20 PM, said:
A good indication, that the OLB stems from the 19th century is the word [b]stât,-a = state,-s[/b], which is not Oldfrisian.

It is.
Richthofen's Oldfrisian dictionary (1840):

######

Posted 20 December 2011 - 02:53 PM

Abramelin, on 20 December 2011 - 01:51 PM, said:
Yes, I found that too, but Knul means "state" in the meanning of 'nation', not some private property or estate.

It is an oldfrisian word, and in the OLB it is not used in the meaning of 'nation'.

His argument is invalid, AS ALWAYS.

There is not a single word or expression, used in OLB that would disprove its authenticity.

######

Posted 20 December 2011 - 03:32 PM

I know these fragments. State or estate is a plausible (and close to orig.) translation. But how would that prove that the text is new?

Imagine, a 'new' oldfrisian text is discovered and proven to be authentic.

It is a few hundred pages long, and older than any known oldfrisian text.

Would it be intelligent to expect and demand that it only has words in it that are already known from the texts we have and in the exact same meaning that we know them?

Wouldn't it be very possible that we would discover that some words and expressions are actually older than we thought?

######

Posted 20 December 2011 - 03:47 PM

Abramelin, on 19 December 2011 - 09:53 PM, said:
Notice the OLB for the letter -A- and -W-.

Hypothesis: VV = W = ω = Ω

I suspect that the oldfrisian VV (double 'ooh', as in 'pooh') became the greek O-mega (big 'o').

I have suggested this before.

######

Posted 20 December 2011 - 04:06 PM

Abramelin, on 20 December 2011 - 03:47 PM, said:
The problem with 'modern' words showing up in a manuscript that is supposed to be millennia old, is that in much more recent manuscripts these words are never used in that meaning.
Like: 3000 years ago XXX meant 1234, then 2000 years later XXX meant 4567, and then again just a few centuries ago it suddenly meant 1234 again.
That is not very likely to happen.

I don't think it's very unlikely to happen.
Just imagine a trend-setter who uses a word in a very old or oldfashioned meaning, and others take over.
The same word can have slightly different meanings in different regions.
We see that often with European languages, but even in various dialects.

Anyway, it's not a hard case, as all of them.

######

Posted 20 December 2011 - 10:11 PM

Mr. M. de Haan Hettema (author of 1832 Oldfrisian dictionary) in Leeuwarder Courant (5 sept. 1871) about the OLB:

"It was written in the Frisian language; I don't know a distinction between Oldfrisian and Land- or Farmers-Frisian. I only know another and newer spelling of that language, because the pronounciation of Frisian is virtually the same as some ages ago, which was demonstrated by the worldfamous linguist the Danish prof. R. Rask in his Frisian grammar [...]
Concerning the spelling in this text, this in my opinion is much more in accordance with the older and very regular, and much better and regular than of those, who nowadays write that language; it would be desirable, that one would adapt that spelling, so there would be more unity of spelling, and the origin of the language would, better than now, be conserved. People nowadays write it with Dutch sounds, and in contemporary Dutch writing style. But this is no surprise. None of the later writers in that language, including Gijsbert Japiks and the Halbertsma brothers, have taken the spelling of the old manuscripts into account. Only T.R. Dijkstra and H.S. Sytstra tried to follow the tracks of the old and kept seeing the value of that spelling."

(improvised translation by me)

######

Posted 20 December 2011 - 10:35 PM

Abramelin, on 20 December 2011 - 10:17 PM, said:
Gijsbert Japiks a later writer??

He died 2 centuries or so before the OLB was published, lol.

He will have ment later than the time of the known Oldfrisian manuscripts.

The Halbertsma bros. also died before OLB's publication.

######

Posted 21 December 2011 - 10:25 AM

Abramelin, on 20 December 2011 - 10:43 PM, said:
But how is a Hettema able to know who pronounced Old Frisian best?

Yes, I would be skeptical about that part too.

But the rest is relevant, and he could know what he was talking about.
He made an Oldfrisian dictionary and studied the grammar...

"It was written in the Frisian language; I don't know a distinction between Oldfrisian and Land- or Farmers-Frisian. [...]
Concerning the spelling in this text, this in my opinion is much more in accordance with the older and very regular, and much better and regular than of those, who nowadays write that language; it would be desirable, that one would adapt that spelling, so there would be more unity of spelling, and the origin of the language would, better than now, be conserved. People nowadays write it with Dutch sounds, and in contemporary Dutch writing style. But this is no surprise. None of the later writers in that language, including Gijsbert Japiks and the Halbertsma brothers, have taken the spelling of the old manuscripts into account."

######

Posted 21 December 2011 - 10:49 AM

Leendert Floris Over de Linden (1837-1919) was a son of Cornelis (1811-1874).

In 1877 he published his answer to Beckering Vinckers with the title "Beweerd maar niet Bewezen" (claimed but not proven).

Here's a translation of what he wrote about his father's relationship with bookbinder Stadermann, one of the 'suspects' in some of the hoax-theories.

"Concerning the frienship between my father and mister Stadermann, I record that this was not more than relation of friendly neighbors, at most during one year, in 1847. After that my father moved house and the relation ended entirely."

Original text:

"Betrekkelijk de vriendschap tusschen mijn vader en den Heer Stadermann teeken ik aan, dat die zich bepaald heeft tot den omgang als welwillende buren, hoogstens één jaar lang, in 1847. Na dien tijd is mijn vader verhuisd en hield de omgang geheel op."

######

Posted 21 December 2011 - 11:28 AM

Abramelin, on 08 October 2011 - 09:07 PM, said:
... it was this same Ottema who had noticed that the numerals as introduced by the OLB Godfreyath the Witking were very similar to what he saw in a Dutch library (The Royal Library/"De Koninklijke Bibliotheek" in The Hague), ie. on a copy of a plate from the Alhambra (Granada).

L.F. Over de Linden ("Beweerd maar niet bewezen", 1877) also refers to this:

"The most important peculiarity, concerning the origin of our numbers - called 'Arabic', but never used by the Arabs - the peculiarity that these numbers, in the 'Yul' as in the manuscript, appear as ornamentfigures in the decorations of the Alhambra, the greatest memorial of Morish architecture in Spain..."

Can anyone provide pictures of these decorations?

######

Posted 21 December 2011 - 01:14 PM

Abramelin, on 21 December 2011 - 12:56 PM, said:
The word may come from West Flemish and does indeed have to do with wood carving.

The Westflemish dialect is closely related to Oldfrisian.

######

Posted by Alewyn Raubenheimer 23 December 2011 - 04:52 PM

Abramelin, on 23 December 2011 - 01:08 PM, said:
The date of 2194 BCE in the Oera Linda Book, what was it based on?

-1- Astrology (some special and rare conjunction)?
-2- Astronomy (an actual/probable impact of a comet - Edmund Halley/William Whiston/Alewyn)
-3- Biblical chronology (Friesche Volksalmanak)?
-4- A combination of 1&2 or 1&3 or 2&3 ?

I think we have covered every possibility by now, but for option -3- I did find something new:

You left out one possibility:

-5- Direct observation, i.e. the OLB is based on fact.

Biblical chronology and, by implication, the Friesche Volksalmanak which is based thereon is unlikely. Why would they have used an inferred or calculated Biblical date (i.e. the Bible was their prime, and only source) and not have used the Biblical description of the flood. The OLB and Biblical descriptions of the flood are completely different from one another.

######

Posted 24 December 2011 - 10:25 PM

Jolly Yule!

Christmas - English
Kerstmis/ Kerst(-feest) - Dutch
Weihnachten/ Christfest - German
Jul - Danish
Jul - Swedish
Jul/ Jol - Norwegian
Jól - Icelandic

Fragments with "JOL" (Joel, Yol, Juul, Yule, Wheel) in OLB

JOL.FÉRSTE = Jol-feast
JOL.TID = Jol-time
JOL.DÉI = Jol-day

In verb:
JOLDON = cheered, howled
JOLANDE = cheering, howling

{original fragments from OLB with page and line number; O+S = Ottema (Dutch) and Sandbach (English) translations from 1876, with minimal corrections}

[002/16]
ALTOMET TVILDON ÀND JOLDON HJA TO SAMNE VPPA HÉM
JEFTHA HJA WÉRON MITH EKKORUM BY THÉRE HÉRD
[O+S p.7]
Somtijds dartelden en joelden zij te zamen op het hiem,
of zij waren met elkander bij den haard
They played and ~~gamboled~~ [howled] together in the fields,
and were also together by the hearth

[006/19]
AFTER.ET TWILIFTE JOL.FÉRSTE BÀRDE HJU THRJA MANGÉRTA
[O+S p.13]
Na het twaalfde Juulfeest bragt zij voort drie maagden
After the twelfth Juulfeest she brought forth three maidens

[006/30]
ÀND NW BÀRDON EK TWILIF SVNA ÀND TWILIF TOGETHERA.
EK JOL.TID TWÉN
[O+S p.13]
En nu baarden zij elk twaalf zonen en twaalf dochteren,
elke juultijd een paar
They each bore twelve sons and twelve daughters —
at every Juul-time a couple

[014/10]
ALLE SETMA THÉR EN ÉW. THÀT IS HVNDRED JÉR OMHLÁPA MÜGE
MITH THA KRODAR ÀND SIN JOL [...]
[O+S p.23]
Alle inzettingen die eene eeuw, dat is honderd jaren, mogen omloopen
met den Kroder (kruijer) en zijn Juul [...]
All the regulations which ~~have existed~~ [can go round] a century, that is, a hundred years
[with the carrier and his Wheel] [...]

[020/21]
ALLE.T MÀRK.JELD MOT JÉRLIKES DÉLATH WRDE.
THRJA DÉGAN FAR THÉRE JOL.DÉI
[O+S p.33]
Al het marktgeld moet jaarlijks verdeeld worden,
drie dagen voor den Juuldag
All the market receipts must be divided yearly [...]
three days before the Juul-day

[037/24]
THA FOLK BIGOST TO JOLANDE ÀN TO SPOTANDE
[O+S p.55]
Het volk begon te joelen en te spotten
The people began to ~~mock~~ [howl] and to jeer

[045/09]
HWÀT HIR BOPPA STÀT SEND THI TÉKNA FON THÀT JOL
[O+S p.65]
Wat hier boven staat, dat zijn de teekens van het Juul
What appears at the top is the signs of the Juul

[045/12]
THÀT IS THENE KRODER THÉR ÉVG MITH THÀT JOL MOT OMMEHLÁPE
[O+S p.65]
deze is de Kroder, die eeuwig met het Juul moet rondloopen
this is the Kroder, which must always go round with the Juul

[045/30]
MEN HJA NISTON NAVT GOD THÀT.ET FON ET JOL MÁKAD WAS
ÀND THAT.ET THÉRUMBE ALTID SKRÉVEN WRDEN MOSTE. MITH SON OM
[O+S p.67]
Maar zij wisten niet goed, dat het van het Juul gemaakt was,
en dat het daarom altijd moest geschreven worden met de zon om
but they did not know that it was taken from the Juul,
and must therefore always be written round like the sun

[052/22]
ACTHTANTICH JÉR FORTHER. JUST WÉRET JOL.FÉRSTE.
THÉR KÉMON HJA VNWARLINGE LIK SNÉI THRVCH STORNE.WIND DRÉWEN
OVIR VSA LANDA TO RUNNANDE
[O+S p.75]
Tachtig jaren later, juist was het Juulfeest,
kwamen zij onverwacht, gelijk sneeuw door een stormwind gedreven,
over onze landen toeloopen
Eighty years afterwards, just at the time of the Juul-feest,
they overran our country like a snowstorm driven by the wind

[067/25]
LIK BLIXEN.FJVR GVNG.ET O.ERA A.LANDA.
ÀND ÉR THES KRODER.S JOL ÉNIS OMHLÁPEN HÉDE.
WAS HJU MÁSTERINNE [...]
[O+S p.95]
Als bliksemvuur ging het over de landen,
en eer des Kroders juul eens omgeloopen was,
was zij meesteres [...]
The news flew through the land like lightning,
and before the carrier's wheel had made one revolution
she was mistress [...]

[071/26]
HWAND THENE KRODER SKIL JETA FIF.THUSAND.JÉR MITH SIN JOL OMME.HLÁPA [...]
[O+S p.101]
want de Kroder zal nog vijfduizend jaren met zijn Jol omloopen [...]
because the carrier must make five thousand revolutions of his Juul

[083/22]
VNDERA TÍDUM THAT ALDLAND SVNKEN IS.
STAND THJU FORMA SPÉKE FON THET JOL AN TOP
[O+S p.115]
In de tijden, dat Atland verzonken is,
stond de eerste spaak van het Juul in top
At the time of the submersion of Atland,
the first spoke of the Juul stood at the top

[084/11]
FRYDOM. LJAFDE ÀND ÉNDRACHT SKILET FOLK IN HJARA WÁCH NÉMA
ÀND MITH THET JOL RISA UTA WLA POL
[O+S p.117]
vrijheid, liefde en eendracht zullen het volk in hare hoede nemen,
en met het juul uit de vuile poel rijzen
freedom, love, and unity will take the people under their protection,
and [with the Wheel] rise out of the vile pool

[094/02]
ALREK KÉM WITHER UT. TO JUWGANDE ÀND TO JOLANDE
[O+S p.131]
Iedereen kwam weder uit om te juichen en te joelen
the people all came out shouting with joy

[099/26]
MITH THET JOL WANDELATH ÀND WIXLATH ALLET ESKÉPNE.
MEN GOD IS ALLÉNA VNFORANDERLIK
[O+S p.137]
Met het Juul verandert en wisselt al het geschapene,
maar het goede is alleen onveranderlijk
~~In the progress of time~~ [with the Wheel] all creation alters and changes,
but goodness alone is unalterable

[106/25]
SIATH HWA FONÉRE TORE DEL
SA SIATH HI THJU DÁNTE FON.ET JOL
[O+S p.147]
Ziet iemand boven van den toren naar beneden,
dan ziet hij de gedaante van het Juul
If one looks down from the tower,
he sees the form of the Juul

[189/02]
BRÉF FON RIKA THJU ALD.FÁM.
VPSÉID TO STÁVEREN BY.T JOL.FÉRSTE
[O+S p.229]
Brief van Rika de oudmaagd,
voorgelezen te Staveren bij het juulfeest
Letter of Rika the ~~Oudmaagd~~ [Oldfam],
read at Staveren at the Juul Feast

[192/27]
NIMMAN SKIL.ER ÀWET AN BÊTRA NE MÜGE
BIFÁRA THÀT JOL INOP EN ÔRE HLÁP.HRING TRÉTH
[O+S p.233]
niemand zal er iets aan kunnen verbeteren,
bevorens het Juul een anderen loopkring intreedt
they shall receive no succour
before the Juul shall enter upon a new circuit

######

Posted 25 December 2011 - 12:00 AM

Abramelin, on 24 December 2011 - 11:00 PM, said:
You forgot about Juul (Juliana), the former queen of the Netherlands, lol.

Juliana, Julius, Jules, Yolanda, etc.

Names derived from JOL.

######

Posted 27 December 2011 - 08:24 AM

Van Gorp, on 27 December 2011 - 12:41 AM, said:
About Joel, Jol, Youlios:

When this feast was about the coming together of all the worlds at the end of the cycle (ultima Thule, thule-tieme Tsjoël -> het doel as is meant in Dutch for the ultimate aim),
When this point is reached, it brings "t ultiem geluk", really "Jolich" see 'jolig' in Flemish, mijn jolijke ik.

They Joelde in 2 different meanings:

1) The death 'Tsjoolde' (see the flemish verb: 'tjoln', wandering around I think they call it in English) among the living at Jol
2) The living 'Joelde' from Joy

When Jolius is radiant as the youth, it has to do with the birth of the sun and the reflection of the light (that means that we are delighted).
That's why we call jewels as we call them (originally JUweeL, the wheel of Jol is fulfilled and brings the light -> makes the world radiant and receptive for the ultimate Joy)

Thank you for joining indeed VG, you are very welcome.
This discussion needs someone who knows about Flemish and etymology, even - or I would say specially - if it's 'alternative', unofficial etymology!

The associations with JOL you added are very interesting and plausible.

To resume and add to that:

JOL

Thule
Tol (Dutch word for spinning toy; whirlabout?)
Toll (German word for 'great', super)

Dolen (Dutch for wander about, walking in circles)
Tjoln, Tsjolen (Flemish version)

Jolly (the English word)
Jolig, Jolich, Jolik (Dutch/ Flemish version)

Joelen, Jolen (Dutch/ Flemish for: to cheer, to howl)

Jewel
Juweel (Dutch version)

Sol, Helios, Julius, etcetera as Puzzler pointed out.

I would not be surprised is the Dutch "Lol" (fun, joy) would be related too.

(I know that in Westfriesland "Jol" is also a family name, and of course there is "Van Jole")

I'm sure we can make this list much longer, which is only normal, considering the importance and symbolic meaning of the JOL.

######

Posted by Alewyn Raubenheimer 27 December 2011 - 08:41 AM

Van Gorp, on 26 December 2011 - 05:00 PM, said:
Alewyn, I find your research results very interresting & plausible.
I have not read the full thread, so excuse me if the subject was allready covered before.

Do you have any thoughts/links in your book/research about the linguistic theories set forth by scientists as Becanus, Schrieck and consorts?
Is there no similar discussion going on in your area (and fora I see ;-) as with the Becanus/Scopius views against the Lipsius/Scalliger alikes?

In short: the classical view of "Latin <- Greek <- Egypt is the way of our civilisation/language", does not stand anymore ... seems to be the bottomline.If you look it linguistic, or mythological. Even more so if there truly were some 'errors' in the dark age timeline.But as I understood from readers of OLB, this story is mainly told as a 'Fries' story.

Hi Van Gorp,

My apologies for only responding now but I do not look at this forum every day.

I am afraid you have to address linguistic questions to people like Puzzler, Abramelin and Otharus. They are far more knowledgeable on the subject than I am.

The investigations into the OLB over the last 140 years by others mainly concentrated on the language it was written in. The conclusions reached were not conclusive, in my opinion, and I decided to approach the OLB from a somewhat different angle. I wanted to see whether we have any other historical and scientific evidence that can bear out the (preposterous) claims made in the book – especially those facts that were not known in the 19th century when the book first surfaced. From that angle I believe that I have proven beyond reasonable doubt that the OLB is not a 19th century hoax. The historical picture that emerged is very fascinating and shows that our entrenched perceptions of early antiquity are simply wrong.

The others here have discovered a lot of supporting evidence to my stance but, if I was to include it all in my book, I would have to update it at least once a month, e.g. the very interesting posts by Abramelin recently regarding Halley and Stonehenge. (Lol, there I go sucking up again). That would make my book somewhat intimidating and unappealing to the average reader.

The debate and further investigations here is exactly what I had hoped for. Thus far the evidence against the hoax theory has been mounting steadily whereas the arguments in favour of the hoax theory are whittling away.

I may just add that the OLB does not describe a bolide impact or impacts with earth; that is my interpretation from the description before and after “the bad times” in the book as well as from other sources. It is interesting, though, that others have also reached the same conclusion long before me, e.g. Halley, Velikovsky, Plato, etc. The scientific community (in certain circles) is now also looking seriously at this. I have no doubt that they will soon find out that earth is suffering much more frequently from disastrous impacts than was thought until now (that is, rather every few hundred or thousand years rather than every few million years).

Who knows, perhaps someone here will even write a sequel to my book, LOL.

######

Posted 27 December 2011 - 11:07 AM

The Puzzler, on 27 December 2011 - 09:22 AM, said:
"Perhaps a Germanic loan-word from a source akin to O.N. jol "a winter feast" (see yule)"

Dutch - English
jolig - jolly
prettig - pretty
zonnig - sunny
fruitig - fruity

######

Posted 27 December 2011 - 11:16 AM

Knul, on 27 December 2011 - 10:04 AM, said:
Joelen has a different etymology from joel-yule.

In OLB it is spelled with "JOL-" (JOLDON, JOLANDE).
The old Dutch spelling is "jolen".
If there would be an English version, it would be "to yool"?

It's obvious the words are related, just like jolig/ jolich/ jolly.

'Official' etymology is founded mostly on wild guesses.

When OLB is accepted to not be a hoax (as I am sure will happen), etymology as we know it will make a HUGE leap forward.

######

Posted 27 December 2011 - 11:26 AM

Alewyn, on 27 December 2011 - 08:41 AM, said:
The investigations into the OLB over the last 140 years by others mainly concentrated on the language it was written in.

If this was true, the mystery would have been solved a long time ago.

Since the aggressive nonsense published by Beckering Vinckers in the 1870s, no scholar of reputation has dared to burn fingers on the subject, because even considering that the manuscript might possibly be authentic was/is taboo and will lead to ridicule and excommunication from the 'scientific' community.

Jensma (in 2004) focused on who might have been behind the assumed conspiracy and what might have been their motives.

######

Posted 27 December 2011 - 11:51 AM

The Puzzler, on 27 December 2011 - 11:47 AM, said:
But maybe as in all things OLB there is 2 different words really

That would be JOL-LIK; Jol-like

######

Posted 27 December 2011 - 04:49 PM

The Puzzler, on 27 December 2011 - 01:16 PM, said:
The only Jol word in the Frisian dictionary takes you to jahwelik...

Which demonstrates that the (online) Frisian dictionaries do not give a complete account of the Oldfrisian language. Perhaps from the words that occur in the known written medieval sources, but the spoken language must have contained an equivalent for "yule", as all (or most) north-European languages seemed to have known this word.

I would not be surprised if the word (and related words) were taboo here in the (Christian) Middle Ages, as all sacred symbols of the old culture were fanatically destroyed.

Wiki (a quick sample):
Scandinavian languages: Jul/ Jol
German: Julfest
English: Yule
Finnish: Joulu
Estonian: Jõulud
Sölring (Sylter Frisian): Jül/ Jööl
Dutch: Joelfeest
Old-English: ġéol, ġéohol, ġéola, ġéoli

German Wiki:
"Die älteste Erwähnung des Wortes Jul findet sich im gotischen Kalenderfragment Codex Ambrosianus A aus dem sechsten oder siebenten Jahrhundert nach Christus." etc.

Translated:
"The earliest mention of the word Jul is found in the Gothic Calendarfragment Codex Ambrosianus A from the sixth or seventh century AD." etc.

######

Posted 27 December 2011 - 04:54 PM

Good stuff Abe.

It nicely shows that OLB was not "based on Nordic mythology" (as was suggested before), but rather that it makes much more sense that OLB and Nordic mythology have a shared origin.

######

Posted 28 December 2011 - 10:50 PM

Knul, on 28 December 2011 - 06:54 PM, said:
Official etymology is based on scientific studies of many generations of scientists not on pseudo-etymology of the type of jol-joldon, jol-Jolande, jol- jolly and jol-jollick, presented by Otharus. This non-scientific approach is certainly not a way to proof the authenticity of the OLB. It's just too silly for words.

Source: http://www.etymologiebank.nl/trefwoord/jolijt

JOLIJT (VREUGDE, PLEZIER)

P.A.F. van Veen en N. van der Sĳs (1997), Van Dale Etymologisch woordenboek

jolijt [vrolijkheid] {jolijt, jolijs [vreugde] 1276-1300} eig. het zelfstandig gebruikt bn. jolijs, jolijt [vrolijk] < frans joli [idem], uit het germ., vgl. oudnoors jōl [kerstmis] (vgl. joelfeest).

I did not claim to be "scientific" or practice "etymology".

That jol, jolen, jolig, jolijt etc. are related could not be more obvious, not only because of the common root, but also because of their association with celebration.

I suppose that is not something Knul knows very much about.

(sorry old man, you have been begging for it)

######

Posted 29 December 2011 - 08:06 AM

Knul, on 29 December 2011 - 06:20 AM, said:
vnder-et weld thes Magy kêmen
that er weldig skolde wertha

onder het gezag van de Magy gekomen
dat hij ~~gewelddadig~~ zou worden

had fallen under the power of Magy
as if his power was to become supreme

Your English translation is not very good, but it is better than your Dutch one.

Isn't that weird?

WELDIG is not "gewelddadig" (violent), but mighty, powerful, influential.

If you want to stay close to the original, use "geweldig" (machtig).

You have not read COL's essay about the word WELD and how it relates to WRALDA?

######

Posted 29 December 2011 - 09:46 AM

Knul, on 29 December 2011 - 08:20 AM, said:
I have not read COL's essay. Could you communicate the text?

Yes, I'll be happy to post and translate it.

Give me some time for that, as I don't have the book with me now and will be moving house next week (from Westfriesland to West-Friesland) and it might take some time to get a new internet connection.

######

Posted 29 December 2011 - 09:52 AM

Knul, on 29 December 2011 - 08:34 AM, said:
Gewelddadig should be replaced by machtig. Thanks Otharus.

You are welcome.

######

Posted 29 December 2011 - 08:30 PM

Abramelin, on 29 December 2011 - 07:36 PM, said:
I have said that someone or some people have been cherry-picking from ancient Frisian, Greek and Roman legends.
But I am quite sure they left out the really mythical things, just to make their fabricated story sound sane and believable.

Many things that were considered utterly insane and unbelievable by most 19th century experts, are actually quite plausible for us nowadays...

######

Posted 30 December 2011 - 12:52 PM

Abramelin, on 30 December 2011 - 11:19 AM, said:
I just found out Overwijn really transliterated every underscore and point in the text too.
...
But what he also did (I removed it from the quote) is give a name like "âst. flyy.land" an extra -y- to stress the way it should be pronounced according to him: -yy- is pronounced as (English) -ee- (in Dutch it would be -ie- ).

Jensma (2006) and De Heer (2008) both made new transliterations (I have found minor mistakes in both).

Sample of full two pages Jensma:

1. photocopy of original manuscript
2. transliteration
3. three columns for different types of footnotes
4. Dutch 'translation' (not one I am happy with)

Sample of transliteration Jensma:

Sample of transliteration/ translation De Heer:

With footnotes on the bottom of every page.

I have asked Alewyn for his translation and am thinking about how I would like to present a combination of:
1. photocopy of original
2. transliteration (normal capitals)
3. English translation
4. footnotes

Online and/or in print.

######

Posted 30 December 2011 - 03:16 PM

Abramelin, on 30 December 2011 - 01:53 PM, said:
I think I prefer Jensma's transliteration because - judging from what you posted - he kept the lines at the original length including breaks, tildes and all. Also I think his use of the capital 'eth', or Ð is really handy.

Yes a consequent line-numbering is handy, but for my personal study I also like to separate sentences.
That letter is OK for print-version, but a normal keyboard doesn't have it; for an online version it would not be good (how to do a word search?).

Here's an experiment (this time not aimed at providing smooth translation, but for study of the language):

######

Posted 30 December 2011 - 05:13 PM

Abramelin, on 30 December 2011 - 03:52 PM, said:
I don't have a special keyboard at all: Ð.
I got it with [CAPS LOCK] and then [rightside - ALT] [D].

On the keyboard I'm working with now, that doesn't work, but there must be a way.

Psychologically, for people who are new to this, it might make the threshold higher when uncommon letters are used. Either way, I'm fine with it.

Quote
Your experiment looks ok, but I think maybe you could leave out the part bottom-left; it looks redundant.

Yeah, I just thought it might be easier for beginners (and dyslectics). I work with a file myself with the original text only, and I let every new sentence start on a new line, makes it easier to read and concentrate. For now it's a little effort. In a print-version I would probably not include both.

Quote
(funny I never saw it, lol: "ethlum", shouldn't that be translated as "nobility" (Dutch: edelen) ?? )

According to Hettema, "ethla" can both mean "edelen" (nobility) as ancestors.

But in OLB, the context seems to indicate that it (originally?) just means ancestors.

Nobility might be a later meaning.

I guess the word is related to "ath".

######

Posted 30 December 2011 - 05:54 PM

Experiment part 2:

######

Posted 30 December 2011 - 06:32 PM

And part 3:

######

Posted by Alewyn Raubenheimer 30 December 2011 - 07:16 PM
Whilst you are on the subject of the OLB's translation:

I have been wanting to share this little thought for some time now (Ever since Otharus pointed out that "Pompa Bleder" did not mean "Pumpkin Leafs" but rather "Water Lily Leafs")

The OLB describes the civil war that broke out between Minerva’s and Syrhed’s followers in ca. 1630 BC. One of the main reasons was the fact that Minerva’s followers started making paper from “pompa bledar” or water lily leafs (Nuphar lutea) instead of from flax, thereby destroying one of the main sources of income of Syrhed’s followers.

The results of the war were that the Fryan Federation broke up, the Celts came into being and the foundations of the later Greek Civilization were laid.

This little leaf, which appears on the Frisian flag today, radically changed world history.

I shall think about this every time I see the Frisian flag.

######

Posted 31 December 2011 - 10:57 AM

Alewyn, on 31 December 2011 - 09:32 AM, said:
Perhaps Otharus could tell us more about the symbolism of the flag.

In classical heraldry, these are the symbolic meanings of the colors:

Red - courage, sacrifice
White - loyalty, fidelity
Blue- truth, knowledge

More practically, red is much better recognizable from a distance on a flag or shield, than green.

The combination red-white-blue is still used in the flags of many nations, like:

Netherlands
United Kingdom
France
Norway
Iceland
United States

######

Posted 31 December 2011 - 12:15 PM

Alewyn, on 31 December 2011 - 09:18 AM, said:
Correct transliteration, imo, is the first step in translation, but I shall leave that to people more knowledgeable on the subject.
...
It may well be that a more accurate transliteration could alter the translation as well.

Alewyn, your translation of "FAM" into Matron, rather than priestess, maagd or virgin is an improvement.

I didn't read much yet, but I found one example of an edit from you that is actually the opposite of an improvement.

It is a fragment that was discussed several times in the forum, so first I will repeat (quotes edited):

Otharus, on 13 October 2010 - 01:32 PM, said:
(OLB page 6; FORMA SKEEDNISE or "Survivors of the Great Tsunami" p. 312; Chapter II, pt.10/11):

"... RING AS HJA RIP WEERON KREEION HJA FRUUCHDA AND NOCHTA ANDA DRAMA.
WR.ALDA.S OD TRAD TO RA BINNA. AND NW..."

Note that there is a point (.) between "DRAMA" and "WR.ALDA.S" and that there is no point between "WR.ALDA.S" and "OD".

The translations:

Ottema 1876 (dutch):
"Zoodra zij volwassen waren, kregen zij vermaak en genoegen in de droomen van Wralda.
Haat trad tot haar binnen."

Sandbach 1876 (english):
"As soon as they were full grown they took pleasure and delight in the visions of Wr-alda.
Hatred found its way among them."

Wirth 1933 (german):
(He just left out "RING ... DRAMA"!!!)
"Od (Gottes Odem) trat zu ihnen ein..."

Overwijn 1941 (dutch):
"Zodra zij volwassen waren, kregen zij vreugde en genoegen in de dromen van Wralda.
Geneugte kwam tot haar."

Jensma 1992 (dutch):
"Zodra zij volwassen waren, kregen ze vreugde en plezier in de dromen van Wralda.
Een spits trad in hun binnen, ..."

Snyman 1998 (afrikaans):
"En toe hulle volgroeid was, het hulle vreugde en genoegdoening geput uit die visioene van Wralda.
Haat het (egter) hulle harte binnegedring."

Jensma 2006 (dutch):
"Zo rap als ze rijp waren, kregen ze vreugde en genoten in Wralda's extase.
Gelukzaligheid trad tot hen binnen, ..."

de Heer 2008 (dutch):
"Zodra zij rijp waren kregen zij vreugde en genoegen en dromen.
Wralda's licht trad bij hen binnen, ..."

Note that de Heer (2008) is the first to correctly put the point between "dromen" and "Wralda´s".

Overview of the various translations of "OD":
Haat; Hatred (Ottema 1876, Sandbach 1876, Snyman 1998)
Gottes Odem; God´s breath (Wirth 1933)
Geneugte; pleasure (Overwijn 1941)
Een spits; a phallic object (Jensma 1992)
Gelukzaligheid; bliss (Jensma 2006)
Licht; light (de Heer 2008)

DISCUSSION
Ottema must have thought of the latin word "ODIUM" (meaning hatred) when he translated OD.
Od/Odr is a nordic root word meaning spirit, but in mythology is also the name of Freya´s lover or husband.

Logically, "od" might also have meant penis, semen or DNA, because after "od" penetrated the three young women, they became pregnant... It was probably an ambiguous, poetic word.

In my opinion it makes a huge difference if a creation myth says that our oldest ancestors were born out of hatred, or out of something more natural and hopefully even loving.

Otharus, on 12 April 2011 - 05:54 PM, said:
Apparently he [Cornelis Over de Linden] has helped Ottema solve several translating problems.

The following fragment of "De Gemaskerde God" (p.260 and footnotes) about this is interesting:

"A good example also is the correspondence about the translation of the word 'Od' (the most discussed word from the whole OLB in its literature)." [Here Jensma had placed a footnote, but this only reads: "cancelled"???]

"Ottema initially thought this would mean something like 'misfortune' or 'bad luck'. But Over de Linden knew exactly what the correct meaning of the word was:

"... page 6 [of Ottema's translation] reads OD TRAD TO RA BINNA translated as 'bad luck passed through the door' [onluk trad (de) deur binnen]. [...] Shouldn't it be: OD nature, life-force, fertilising force, or an even better word, entered her?" [letter 5 November 1871]

The word OD is related to Oldsaxon "ôd" - fortune- or good luck-bringing force [gelukbrengende kracht]. The Dutch word for stork, 'ooievaar' might have been derived from this.

Ottema did not accept this correction, he changed his interpretation and derived the word from Latin 'Odi' = I hate."

I find it absurd that Ottema ignored Over de Linden's suggestion and chose for the Latin "od" (hate) rather than the old-Saxon "ôd" (fortune or life-force) in his translation of "OD" in the creation myth. (In old-Norse it appears to have meant 'spirit', which would also fit more into the context than 'hate'.)

I can think of two possible explanations.

First, that he might have had the preconceived idea that the creation myth should have an 'original sin' type of element in it; pregnancy means bad luck?!

Second, that he might have felt embarrassed with any association to fertility.

In the transliteration and translation of this fragment, two mistakes were made by Ottema, that were copied by Sandbach and not corrected by Alewyn Raubenheimer.

1) The point between DRAMA and WR.ALDA.S was moved and placed between WR.ALDA.S and OD.

2) The word OD was translated as "haat"/ "hatred", based on Latin "odium", rather than on the Old-Norse or Old-Saxon "od"/ "odr" that has a positive meaning (spirit, life-force, fortune, etc).

Transliteration Ottema (1876):
"Ring as hja rip wêron krêjon hja früchda ånd nochta anda drâma Wr.aldas. Od trâd to-ra binna:"

Transliteration Otharus (2011):
"... RING AS HJA RIP WÉRON KRÉION HJA FRÜCHDA ÀND NOCHTA ANDA DRÁMA. WR.ALDA.S OD TRAD TO RA BINNA."

Translation Ottema (1876):
"Zoodra zij volwassen waren, kregen zij vermaak en genoegen in de droomen van Wralda. Haat trad tot haar binnen."

Translation Sandbach (1876):
"As soon as they were full grown they took pleasure and delight in the visions of Wr-alda. Hatred found its way among them."

Edited translation Alewyn Raubenheimer (2011):
"When she was full grown she took pleasure and delight in the visions of Wralda. Hatred entered them."

"Hja wêron rip" = they were ripe (plural), which also makes sense in the context of THREE mothers.

But what I really don't understand, is how anyone can make sense out of conception being caused by "hatred" entering a woman.

One may say, it's only a creation myth, but I repeat: it makes a huge difference if you believe that our ancestors believed life started out of hatred (or an angry god punishing our oldest ancestors by casting them out of paradise), or that you have a more positive and natural approach to the origin of life.

######

Posted 01 January 2012 - 11:49 AM

Knul, on 01 January 2012 - 08:26 AM, said:
Wraldas od trad tora binna - Wralda's roede trad bij hen binnen.
od < hod - hoede 1. voorzichtigheid Eng. caution, 2. banier, vlaggestok, banner. Dutch hoede = Lat. cauda - penis, Eng. rod, Dutch roede.s. Oldfrisian hoda-hoeden

Yes, that makes much more sense! Thanks for that, Knul.

The 'head' of a penis (flagpole/ staff/ shaft) surely looks like a hood/ hat/ helmet.

But I would not completely rule out a connection with the Oldnorse/ Saxon "od".

The OLB language is full of ambiguities anyway.

Would the words "rod" and "hod" (and "mod"?) somehow be related to "od"?

Great rhyme-words...

So here's a new improvised English translation:

Soon as they were ripe, they got fruits/ joy (dutch: vruchten/ vreugden) and nuts/ pleasure (dutch: noten/ geneugten) in their dreams.
Wralda's rod (or spirit/ life-force) entered them, and now they gave birth to 12 suns and 12 daughters, each Joltime twins.
Thereof all people have come (descended).

Transliteration original text (manuscript page 6):

RING AS HJA RIP WÉRON KRÉJON HJA FRÜCHDA ÀND NOCHTA ANDA DRÁMA.
WR.ALDAS OD TRÀD TO RA BINNA.
ÀND NW BÀRDON EK TWILIF SVNA ÀND TWILIF TOGETHERA. EK JOL.TID TWÉN.
THÉROF SEND ALLE MÀNNESKA KÉMEN.

######

Posted 01 January 2012 - 12:03 PM

Knul, on 31 December 2011 - 08:12 PM, said:
Even in modern Frisian language fam means female servant.

That is not quite correct.

In modern Frisian it means "woman", but in the OLB the context indicates that it was more of an honorary title, something like "lady" (dutch "vrouwe", which would be related to "freya").

######

Posted 02 January 2012 - 02:22 PM

Knul, on 01 January 2012 - 12:18 PM, said:
You should look under faam or faamwezen: doet thuis het dienstbodenwerk, het als dienstbode dienen.

Interesting, but I think it's much more simple.

Modern Frisian "Famke" = young woman, therefore "Fam" would logically just mean "woman", just like the French "femme" (pronounced "fam") and the Latin "Femina".

I also think - different from classical etymology! - that the word "Family" is derived from it.

Frisian dictionary Wiarda (1786):

Idem Hettema (1832):

Idem Richthofen (1840):

######

Posted 02 January 2012 - 02:55 PM

Van Gorp, on 02 January 2012 - 01:45 AM, said:
I tend to believe that the ancient gods (Helenic and Pagan) are stories and representations of tribe-migrations.

Hence, 'legends' are used by Greek and Roman suppressors to describe the history of the people they tried to dominate.
By learning 'our own' history through 'their' legends, things can get fussy some times.

The cultural/historical value of these legend-people seem to be more original than the Greek/Latin ones, and all relative to the ongoing transmigration of the Scytisch field people throughout Europe in the ages before and during the Greek/Roman domination of Europe.

Many Greek/Latin words are phonetically invented/written words of an Old Euro-Celtisch-Scytisch-Frysian-Belgae-... 'spraecke' (the language was spoken, not written).
And then we try to trace back the origin of words by their invented Greek/Latin counterpart?

Interesting views. I can relate to them.

Quote
Below an extract of an 17th essay on the original language-spraec spoken by Belgae Scyths (similar to OLB story)
[...]

Interesting read. Thanks for that.

What is your view on the origin of the words "Belgae" and "Scyths"?

Do you know the word of the Westflemish alternative historian/ artist Joël Vandemaele?

He suggested that Belgae are related to Pelasgians.

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Pelasgians

"The name Pelasgians (Greek: Πελασγοί, Pelasgoí, singular Πελασγός, Pelasgós) was used by some ancient Greek writers to refer to populations that were either the ancestors of the Greeks or who preceded the Greeks in Greece, "a hold-all term for any ancient, primitive and presumably indigenous people in the Greek world."[1] In general, "Pelasgian" has come to mean more broadly all the indigenous inhabitants of the Aegean Sea region and their cultures before the advent of the Greek language."

######

Posted 02 January 2012 - 03:34 PM

Knul, on 02 January 2012 - 02:54 PM, said:
So you see, that the general term maiden, meid is used for a function in the household like melkmeid -milk maiden, kindermeisje - children's maiden, etc. and that the term has not been used for the head, chief of the household, which would be indicated as matrona = lady = vrouwe.See 3) in the last eigth lines. Knapa and famna belonged to the household as a remainal of the time of slavery.

But in OLB the word does not seem to have this meaning:

[061/28]
NW WILLATH WI SKRIWA VR THA ORLOCH THÉRA BURCH.FÁMNA KÀLTA ÀND MIN.ERVA
Now we will describe the war of the ... Kàlta and Minerva.

Burchfamna = (Dutch:) burchtvrouwen, stedenmaagden, burgemeesteressen? = (English:) borough-matron?

Amsterdam:

Antwerpen:

Enkhuizen:

Groningen:

Hamburg (city hall):

Notice the steering wheel.

######

Posted 03 January 2012 - 08:40 AM

Van Gorp, on 03 January 2012 - 01:19 AM, said:
These quotes were indeed coming from Adriaan Schrieck's work.

In fact the introduction of

"Van t'beghin der eerster volcken van Europen. In sonderheyt vanden oorspronck ende saecken der Neder-Landren.
Met betoon vande dwalinghen der Griecken ende Latinen op t'selve Beghin ende den ghemeynen Oorspronck."

The PDF can be downloaded here:
http://books.google.nl/books?id=GlVDAAAAcAAJ&lpg=PT431&ots=jfuvwx29-o&dq=t'beghin%20der%20eerster%20volcken%20van%20Europen&hl=nl&pg=PT431#v=onepage&q&f=false

Two quick (OLB-related) finds from the intro:

Schrieck's etymology of "Atlantis" (achter-land = behind-land) is different of that of OLB.

I leave conclusions for later.

######

Posted 03 January 2012 - 09:44 AM

More Atlantis in Schrieck (1614) p.75/912:

My first impression is that many of Schrieck's etymologies make less sense than the ones given and suggested in OLB.

But that does by no means mean that all of it is nonsense.

It is interesting that both Scandinavia (Sweden) and the Low counties seem to have had a tradition of proving that their language was the one of before the Babylonian confusion of speech.

More later.

######

Posted 03 January 2012 - 11:36 AM

Schrieck about the "Vriesen" (liber VIII, p.254-255):

Jolly Yule!

2011-12-25T01:04:00.000-08:00

Christmas - English
Kerstmis/ Kerst(-feest) - Dutch
Weihnachten/ Christfest - German
Jul - Danish
Jul - Swedish
Jul/ Jol - Norwegian
Jól - Icelandic
Joulu - Finnish

PAPER from POMPIER

2011-12-24T06:51:00.000-08:00

The original Frisian coat of arms had water-lily leaves ("pompebladen") in it.

Why 'pomp'-leaves?

Wiki "Flag of Friesland" has no answer:

The Frisian flag, is the official flag of the Dutch province of Friesland. It consists of four blue and three white diagonal stripes; in the white stripes are a total of seven red pompeblêden, stylised heart-shaped leaves of yellow water-lily.

The seven red pompeblêden are a reference to the Frisian "sea countries" in the Middle Ages: independent regions along the coast from Alkmaar to the Weser who were allied against the Vikings. There were never precisely seven distinct rulers, but the number seven probably has the connotation "many."

Since the 11th century a coat of arms with pompeblêdden is known. Evidence for this lies within verses of the Gudrunlied. Round 1200 Scandinavian coats of arms reveal many traces of water-lilies and hearts, found often in combination with images of lions.

15th century books on heraldry show that two armorial bearings were derived from the early ones: a coat of arms showing lions and seven pompeblêdden transformed into little blocks, the other being the arms with the seven now known lilies on stripes.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

The following fragment of Oera Linda Book could explain why 'pomp'-leaves had a very important meaning to the old Frisians:

[OLB p.064/11] ca. 1630 BC; KÀLTA's speech:

SVNUM ÀND TOGHATRUM FRYA.S.
I WÉT WEL THÀT WI INNA LERSTE TÍD FÚL LEK ÀND BREK LÉDEN HÀVE.
THRVCHDAM THA STJURAR NAVT LÔNGER KVME VMB.VS SKRIF.FILT TO VRSELLA.
[...]
ANDA ÔRA SYDE THÉRE SKELDA HWÉR HJA TOMET THA FÉRT FON ALLE SÉA HÀVE
THÉR MÁKATH HJA HJVD.DÉGON SKRIF.FILT FON POMPA.BLÉDAR
THÉRMITH SPARATH HJA LINNENT UT ÀND KÀNATH HJA VS WEL MISTE.
NÉIDAM THÀT SKRIF.FILT MÁKJA. NV ALTI VS GRÁTESTE BIDRIV WÉST.IS.
SÁ HETH THJU MODER WILT THAT MÀN.ET VS LÉRA SKOLDE.

Improved English translation (as Sandbach had too many errors):

Sons and daughters of Frya,
you know well that we in last times have suffered much loss and misery
because the sailors no longer come to buy our writing-felt
[...]
On the other side of the Scheldt, where they almost have the trade of all seas,
there they nowadays make writing-felt of water-lily leaves.
With that they save linen and no longer need us (lit.: can they miss us).
Because the making of writing-felt has always been our greatest trade,
the mother willed that one should teach us

So first "SKRIF-FILT" was used, made of "LINNENT", later paper made of "POMPA-BLÉDAR".

In the OLB, a word for 'paper' is used only once, as "PAMPÍER" [letter Hidde (1256 AD) line 11]:

VMBE HJA NAVT TO VRLYSA HÀB IK RA VP WRLANDISK PAMPÍER VVRSKRÉVEN.
In order not to lose them, I copied them on foreign paper. (Sandbach)

The word "paper" in modern European languages never has a "M" before the second "P" (or "B"):

paber - Estonian
páipéar - Irish
papel - Spanish, Portuguese
paper - English
папир - Servian
папера - White-Russian
paperi - Finnish
papier - Dutch, Frisian, German, French, Polish, Slovakian
papir - Danish, Norwegian, Kroatian, Ukrainian (папір)
papír - Hungarian, Czech
papirja - Slovenian
papīrs - Latvian
papper - Swedish
pappír - Icelandic
papur - Welsch
popierius - Lithuanian

But in various Frisian texts, from before and after publication of the OLB, varieties with an "M" were used:

pompier: 1807, 1821, 1834, 1864, 1867, 1874, 1880, 1885, 1889, 1895, 1896 (2x), 1901, 1902, 1913, 1920, 1923, 1935, 1946
pampier: 1816, 1824, 1882
pumpier: 1855, 1871

1807 Nim dizze rijgels oon, nim oon dit lyts pompier. E. NAUTA, rymbrief, (1)
1816 De hudde Wijn dij hie wat proesd / En onder de Pampieren poesd. P.G. DEKETH, pijtter, strofenr. 46
1821 (ca.) Yn schier pompier berolle. E. HALB, freun
1824 Ho earm binne wij oon marcken, omme for-schaette, heegjende in leegjende luwden ... op it pampier mielje to kinnen. R. POSTHUMUS, prieuwcke, XIII
1834 Doe grou pompier: dat spielde er eak al gou wer ôaf. E. HALB, lapekoer III, 402
1855 Set naut dalik ol huet dy în 't sin sciet uppa 't pumpier. H. SYTSTRA, Iduna, 140
1864 De diakens ... founen okkersneins f 4000 oan Russisk pompier în 'e budel. W. DYKSTRA, nysbode, nr. 3, 3
1867 Tsjinwirdich barre de boeren al gau ris pompierkes for hiar bûter, mar destiids faek goudjild. W. DYKSTRA, wever, 20
1871 Ik (jow) jou alles în biwar end jy jowe my up libben end dead der en lîts pumpierke fen în 't bywêsen fen jou wîf end soan. G. COLMJON, Sw., 54
1874 Hy (wier) mei falske pompieren ... wer în 't lând komd. P. BLEEKSMA, F.m.n., 159
1880 Om it noazblieden, as dat al to stjelpich giet, to stuitsjen, moat me grou pompier kôgje ef in string keulsce side om 'e hals dwaen. H.G. v.d. VEEN, wrald, 48
1882 Pieter (is) oan de doar ... in greate rol pampier ûnder de earm. P.J. TROELSTRA, wiersizzery, (6)
1885 Yn forskate hûzen hinget in great pompier efter in glês mei in swarte list er om hinne ... op dat pompier stiet ... in forklearringe. M.P. TROELSTRA, Sw., 59
1889 Bûrman naem syn boekje op, der der in pompierke út krige hie, in Russiske coupon. J.D. BAARDA, forsin, 47
1895 De Eastenrykse pompieren, dy mochten wy wol fen 'e hân dwaen en keapje er wer Spaenske foar. T.W. SYTSTRA, F.m.n., 152
1896 It rint yn 'e pompieren. W. DYKSTRA, volksl. II, 388
1896 Dy faem is op skien pompier - 'heeft geen vrijer aan de hand'. W. DYKSTRA, volksl. II, 311
1901 For in tachtich goune silverjild (hie) (er) tsjin pompier wiksele. T.G. v.d. MEULEN, Sw., 94
1902 In oaren-ien, oars ek wol yn steat om moai dúdlik syn tinzen op 't pompier to bringen, skreau djarp for doarp. J. f.'e GAESTMAR, F.m.n., 187
1913 Ik hab jimme gâns to skriuwen, mar ik hab soks net wollen mei pompier en inket. E.B. FOLKERTSMA, Y.ú.e.t., 72
1920 De bank hoegde dos net safolle munt yn kas to hawwen as der pompier yn omrin wier. P.T. ZWART, Heit., 36
1923 Der wirdt yn dizze wrâld nearne sa folle liichd as op 't pompier. J.P. WIERSMA, arbeiders-jongfolk, 7
1935 Hjir lizze noch wol in pear pompierkes op 't taffeltsje. S. BOUMA, wolken, 6
1946 Men (sit) efter it swarte pompier by in lyts ljochtsje mei it daei om to kliemen. W. KOK, koarstekoeke, 80

Source: http://gtb.inl.nl/iWDB/search?actie=article&wdb=WFT&id=74583.re.d1e4142723&lemma=pampier

(Note that E. Halbertsma (1821, 1834) spelled: "pompier")

If the OLB story is right it would explain two things:

1) why the Frisian flag is made up of 'pomp'-leaves
2) why the most common old-Frisian spelling of paper was "pompier"

If the OLB was created in the 19th century, its author(s) must have been an etymology fanatic. The etymology of "pompier" seems obvious, yet nothing is said about it in the OLB, and the only time the word for paper is used, it is spelled as "pampíer", while "pompier" would be more pure.

I think this could be an important clue.

Frisia (1609) Hamconius

2011-12-17T09:22:00.000-08:00

some screenshots, for later use

Vronen, hoofd- en moederstad der Kleine Friezen

2011-12-16T04:00:00.000-08:00

Transcription of:

OUD-HEEDEN
van
ZAAN-LAND
STAVOREN VRONEN
en WATERLAND
door
H.SOETEBOOM
II Deel.

Willem Linnig van Koppenol
MDCCII (1702), Amsterdam

- - - - - -

OUD-HEDEN
VAN
ZAAN-LAND, STAVOREN,
VRONEN en WATERLAND;

Behelzende haar Oosprongen, Volkplantingen, Loop
der Rivieren, Bedykinge, Regeeringen onder Keyzers, Ko-
ningen, Prinçen, Graven, Potestaten, en Burger-vaderen.

De Wetten, en Voor-regten, haar door deze vergund;
De oorlogen die haar gedrukt, ende Vrede, Koophan-
del, Scheepvaart, Visscherye, en Leeringen,
die veele Steden, en Dorpen verheven hebben.

Alles uit de Oudheden Nagespeurd, en met
Autentique Stukken bewaarheid.

DOOR
HENDRIK SOETEBOOM
TWEDE DEEL.

Deze laatste Druk van nieuws overzien, verbeterd, met no-
dige Aantekeningen, Figuren, en een Landkaart verrykt.

t'AMSTERDAM
By WILHEM LINNIG VAN KOPPENOL
op de Vygendam, in de Gulde Roos, MDCCII

= = = = = =

Fol. 1

BESCHRYVINGE
VAN
VROONEN:
Hooft en Moeder-Stadt der
KLEYNE VRIESEN.
HET I. BOECK,

Vervattende
Haar opkomen, Bloeyende staat, Wapen,
Voor-rechten, Oude gelegenheyd,
Zeevaart en Koophandel.

HET I. CAPITTEL.

De waarheyt, welk is ofte wesen
moet de ziele der Historien, soo de
Oude getuygen (door verloop van
tyden, door stoffigheyt onser voor-
ouderen, ofte door den woesten Oorlog ver-
swakt) zynde in dese onse dagen met veel
donkerheden en nevelen omhangen, kan niet
wel voortgebracht worden, als meesten tyt
met het geley van de onsekere beschryvingen,
van de alder-bedenkelykste naramingen,
ofte van 't gene dat mette omstandigheden
der saken best over een komt, sodanig mee-
sten tyt geschieden moet in de vertellingen
van de oude Stadt Vroonen, daar 't nu aan toe
gekomen is, 't welk of schoon de waarheyt

2
vast staat, datse eertyts geweest zy, by de
voortreffelykste Scribenten bevestig wort,
en door soo veel goede getuygen aangeno-
men; nochtans van haar eerste beginsel en
van haar midden, weynig ofte geen bescheyt
by een brengen, dan van hooren seggen: Al-
leen men siet Vroonen van achteren, en niet
van vooren; men weet haar val, en niet hoe-
se begonnen heeft, Ja hoe Vroonen stont eer
het viel, daar nochtans veel roems van hare
grootheyt en bloeyende stant gedaan wort.
Wanneer ik dit nu by my selven overlegge
(zynde gebooren in een Landstreek, daar de
Inwoonders hun outs tyts verblyden, datse
de name hadden van Vriesen als een Vrye volk
Te weten, aan de Zaan, die voor eenige
eeuwen ontrent Vroonen in de Zee placht te
vallen,) konde niet nalaten om van de gemel-
de Stad, niet alleen haren val ofte ondergang
(die God zy gelooft, wien 't alleen toekomt
uyt duysternisse ligt te maken; de welke ook
De Landen van Holland, West-vriesland,
meer bate dan schaade deede, en namaals
een vaste Bondgenoodschap met den anderen
veroorsaakte) maar ook haar begin en tref-
felyken middelstant te beschryven, met soo
veel sekerheyt en blyken als 't my mogelyk
om doen was, daar van niets achterlatende
by myn weten, en desgelyks geen leugenen
bybrengende met voordacht. Sodanig een
History en Lant-beschryvers belydenisse be-
hoort te wesen, (als gesegt is) want wy hier
inne niet na en 'volgende luyden (hoewel van
groote geleertheyd) die werk gesocht hebben,
omme te beschryven een Utopia, als den ver-

3
standigen Thomas Mores, eertyts Cancelier
van Engeland, ofte van 't Eylant Attelantida,
daar den Jesuit en nauw doorsnuffelende Jo-
sephus Acosta van verhaalt, het welke eenige
hondert mylen groot, ontrent de barbarische
kusten gelegen hadde, en in de grooten Oce-
aan, die ongrondelyk diep is, verdronken sou-
de zyn, 't gene met reden men Nergens Land
noemen mocht: ofte en volgen ook niet den
voortreffeyken werelt wysen Plato, om te
verhalen van een Stad, die noyt te vinden
heeft geweest, hoewel datter een sulken Stad
in des Aardryks ront wel behoorde, ofte had-
de mogen zyn. Want, het gene hier ver-
handelt sal worden, is van een Stad ofte
Vestinge, die haar wesen heeft gehad in
der waarheyd, hare handelinge en doen in
erusthaftigheyd, haar voorspoet in Scheep-
vaart en Koophandel, haar bloey en 't val-
len in den verderffelyken Oorlog.
VROONEN dan na ellen aansien heeft
haar eerste bevolking ontvangen uyt de Lan-
den der Oostvriesen, (die men Frisiae Majo-
res noemt, zynde de Groote,) geseten aan
gene zyde van het Flye, die de plaatsen
eerstmaalen aangevaart ofte bewoont heb-
ben; een volk dat sich derft roemen afge-
komen te zyn uyt de verstroyde Oversten
van 't Macedonisch heyr, en dat na 't overly-
den van den grooten Alexander; en of nu
sulkx by veelen (en dat met groote rede-
nen) in twyfel getrokken word, soo is het
doen ter tyd een volk geworden, dat sich
door de vermenigvuldinge aan alle kanten
uyt te breyden socht, gelyk 't selfde blykt

4
in de Op en Nedergang van Stavoren, en
voornamelyk in de Voor-reden; innemen-
de sekere Landen (volgens het regt der na-
turen) die niet bewoont waren, ofte uyt recht
en macht des Oorlogs, diese door gewelt
van wapenen (genomen voor 't krygsrecht)
verkregen: Daarom getuygen ons de Vries-
sche Kronyken, dat Friso een heyrkracht van
zyn Vader bekomen hebbende, aan de zyde
van het Flye neder sitten ging, welke land hy
na zyne name Frisiae Novam (nu ter tyd kleyn
vriesland ofte Noord-Hollandt) genaamt
heeft, in de welke hy een grondvest leyde van
een toekomende Stadt die hy na de name zyns
Egemaals Vrougeest hete: dese stad soude na-
maals de Romeynen in gelykheyt (soo als zy
schryven, segt Winsemius) van 't Italiaansche
Verona VERONAM genoemt hebben, siet
zyn Friesche Cronyk lib. I fol. 11. Op een an-
derr plaatse noemt hy haar de Hooftstad, en
sou gebouwt zyn 120. jaren voor de geboor-
te Christi; en soo 't wel schynt, heeft Friso
de Jonge zyn Hof en Vorstelyke wooninge in
de stad Vroonen gehouden, en mogelyk ook
de heerschappye over West-vriesland gehad:
waar uyt men siet, dat de gemelde Stad het
eerste begin was van de Mindere Vriesen, de
outste stad, de Moederstad, en de voor-
treffelykste van alle de nakomende, steden
soo van Dorpen, Buerten, en andersins, die
na hare eerste besettinge uytgebreyd zyn.
Wann hy dan segt, dat Friso een
heyrkracht van zyn Vader verkregen hadde
(verstaat dat Friso de Jonge, een zoone was
van Gruno, dese een zoon van Gaylo, en

5
dese een sone van Hajo, Overste der Vrie-
sche Priesteren, onder 't Heydendom zijnde
de soone van Friso, de Oude) en hy sich aan
de kant van 't Flye nedersette, so is het ver-
moeden de bane gemaakt is met de Wapens,
ofte dat Westvrieslandt te voren al bewoont,
en over sulks de eerste occupeerders eygen
was. Maar wanneer hy seggen wil, dat Fri-
so de Ionge, een groot geselschap by hem ge-
had heeft om de selve Landen te bewoonen,
kondét wel wesen dat Westvriesland ofte
met geen ofte met weynig volk beseten is ge-
weest. En 't mach ook lichtelyk vele tot ver-
wonderinge trecken, indien Frisus met syn
by-hebbende heyr, het mindere deel ofte 't
kleyne Vrieslant eerstmaal heeft bevolkt, so
een reecx van jaren voor de toekomste onses
Heylants; waaom dat dan de oude Holland-
sche Chronyk met sijn Divisien schryft, dat
de volkeren eerst voort geset zyn ontrent drie
hondert jaren na de geboorte Christi: Want
hy schryft aldus; Men seyt in 't jaar van drie
hondert, West-vrieslant van vyf Heeren en
Edelen bewoont is geworden, als van eenen
genoemt Coning Dirk, zynde van Vrieslant,
daar den Coning Rabbout af gekomen is, dese
hadde sijn woonstad en Coninglyken stoel in
Medenblik. De anderen was genaamt Heer
Gerrit Uitter-woude, die placht te woonen in
het Dorp Opdijk. De derde heete Roelant
van Weernesse, en hadde een groot Kasteel
staan in het Dorp van Wydenesse dar sijn heer-
lykheyt was (mogelyk dat namaals de Hol-
lantsche Graven dit Kasteel opgemaakt en
versterkt hebben tegens de geduerige weder-
spannigheyt der kleyne Vriesen so verhaalt sal

6
worden onder Grave Floris de V. van dien
name, gelyk de selve 't Kasteel tot Meden-
blik mede herbouwt heeft.) De vierde deser
Edelen was genaamt Kinne, Heykers Soon
van Bennebroek, dese nam zyn woonstede tot
Bennebroek. En de laatste wierde genaamt
Jonkheer Adelbold van Winkel, die woonde
in 't Dorp Winkel. Dog om hier met beschey-
denheyt van te oordelen, en niet met veel
tegenreden daar over te twisten, so is lichte-
lyk de schryver zyn meeninge geweest, dat
dese Edelen niet de volk-plante, maar de
eerste Heerlykheden te dier plaatse aange-
vaart hebben, en mogelyk gekomen zyn met
een goet getal van volk, ofte door groote
Privilegien en Voor-rechten tot die gemelde
Dorpen gelokt, en over sulks deselve groo-
telyks vermeerdert, en daar toe besonderlyk
verbetert hebben: Want hy segt dat Kinne
de zoon was van Heyke van Bennebroek,
of men most de wagen voor de paarden in-
spannen, en seggen dat de Soon aldaar eer
dan de Vader geweest was, indien men Hey-
kes vaders Dorp sonder menschen wilden
hebben, der dat'er Kinne metter woon quam;
maar voor my, ik soude liever gelooven,
dat dese Heeren en Edelen meest Westvrie-
sen zyn geweest, maar dat deselve met de
komste van Prince Dirk geboren zynde uyt
de stamme der Hertogen van oost-vrieslant
(die daar na, gelyk ook uyt de Ledenen van
de voornoemde Prince Dirk tot Koningen
in Oost en West-vriesland verheven zyn ge-
worden,) datse met de komste van so hoo-
gen persoon (seg ik) als wesende de voor-

7
naamste Ingesetenen, Welboren Mannen,
zynde ryk in goederen, van hem (en mo-
gelyk met verlof syner Vrienden Hertogen
van Vrieslant) tot Heeren en Edelen ge-
maakt, en tot de regeeringe des Lands zynes
Vorstendoms, en heerlykheden toegevoegd
zyn: Sus ander en waar den so geloofwaar-
digen Cornelius Tacitus, de beroemde History
schryver die in dese Lande lange te voo-
ren geweest was, en des Lants gelegentheyt
te deegen doorsnuffelen, van leugenen ofte
beter groote misverstant te beschuldigen,
daar hy by zynen tyden de mindere Vriesen
al tot een volk stelt, en zyn woorden in
't kort van hem, dat de Vriesen twederley
zyn, na de gelegentheyt van hare mogent-
heyt, want de eene werden genaamt die van
het Groot Vrieslandt, en de andere die van het
Kleyne Vrieslant, beyde dese volkeren te sa-
men werden van den andere afgeslooten,
door middel van den Rijn, en strekken tot de
Oceanische Zee toe. Siet hier van in zyn
Boek de Moral Germanicum, daar hy wyd en
breed van dese volkeren en van hun zeden
handelt. Plinius die reekent en telt de Kleyne
Vriesen onder de Batavieren, noemende eerst
Batavia, dan de Caninefaten, dan de Min-
dere Vriesen, de Waterlanders, de Cau-
chen, &c. beslooten zynde (so hy schryft
tusschen Helium en 't Flevum, twee Castee-
len, de eene gelegen ontrent de Mase, en
de ander aan de Riviere het Flye.
Dat Winsemius segt, dat Friso de nieuw-ge-
bouwde Stat van Vroonen, na syn wyf Vrou-
geest genaamt heeft, en de Romeynen weder-

8
om Veronam (so als sy schryven seyt hy ver-
wondert my, want latende de naam in zyn
wesen, tot aan ons vyfde Capittel daar als
dan breeder van gehandelt sal worden) wie
sal gelooven dat de Italianen sulkx getuygen,
terwylen het minste daar van in de gemelde
Tacitus niet te vinden is, die so eene sake vol
voortreffelykheyt en dienende tot beter on-
derrechtinge aan de uytlantsche Hooftstad,
en 't Lant der kleyne Vriesen, niet en hadde
voorbygegaan; en indien de Casteelen, Bur-
gen ofte Vastigheden aan den Rijn, van de
Romeynen by tyden van dien eerwaardigen
Tacitus, en voornamelyk die aan de Ryndeure
by Vroonen gebouwt waren (so het sekerste
niet en is, maar vry eenige jaren daar na) wat
Schrijver isser onder de Romeynen. (neemt
ook Plinius hier by, die hier vermeldinge van
doet; dewyl wy schier aan hem alleen de
eenige getuyge hebben, van den handel,
zeden en manieren der Bataviers; en Vrie-
sen, daar hy breed beschryft hen doen met
en tegens de Romeynen, daarse hun-lieden
so lang met de wapenen beschermden, datse
eyndelyk de Vrede verkregen, en door de
gene versmacht. Om dit wat nader in te
sien, sullens eens overgaan tot Vroonen en
besoeken de besettinge der Romeynen aldaar.

(9)
HET II. CAPITTEL.

Hoe wel dat Winsemius verhaalt dat de
Romeynen na hunne eygen getuygenisse
de voornoemde Stad in gelykheyt van het Ita-
liaansche Verona, Veronam genaamt heb-
ben, so schryft hy niet wanneer by wat ge-
legenheyt. De sake lust my nu een wey-
nig te ondersoeken, om eens te besien of het
klouwen niet by den draad te vinden is,
en hoe na datmen soude konnen ramen.
De meergemelde Tacitus doet in sijn gantsche
Beschryvinge ofte Jaartydboeken, nochte
in de zeden der Fuytschen geen vermeldin-
ge daar van, en voornamelak van de gene
die in kennemerland ofte in Westvrieslant
(by zyn omswervinge hier ontrent) waren;
so datmen wel gelooven mag datser doen
noch niet geweest, maar namaals wel ge-
maakt zyn so de getuygen van later tyden by
brengen, in de oude opschriften van 't bouwen
der Kasteelen, nu en dan in Hollant gevon-
den, onder andere daar inne de woorden on-
trent van dese inhoud, staat dat de Batavieren
waren Broeders en Vrienden van 't Room-
sche Ryk, gelyk ook in een ander steen. Petrus
Schriverius verhaalt van vele Antiquiteyten
die ontrent verscheyden oude en aansien-
lyke Gebouwen gevonden zyn, en segt dat
daar uyt blykt dat de Romeynen hier
lange heerschappye gehad hebben; het

10
welk gelofelijk is, doch heb noyt beschyt
gevonden, of sulkx met bewillinge van de
Batavieren geschiet was, of door dien de sel-
ve hun Roomsche Heerschappye, die hier
so genoemt wort, onderworpen waren. Hy
schrijft Rijnsburg toe dat het een Roomsch
gebouw is, alwaar den Rijn voorby liep tot
Catwijk in Zee; Want seyt hy men sal we-
ten dat de middelstroom van den Rijn, die
lange zyn naam behout (door de steden Uyt-
recht) Woerden, en Leyden voorby Rijnsburg
(also van den Rijn en 't Roomsch gebouw
genaamt) en Cattenwijk in de Zee placht te
loopen, is verstopt door een groot en vervare-
lyken onweder) gelykerwys de oude Cronij-
ken van Uytrecht vermelden) ten tyden van
Hungrus de elfste Bisschop van Uytrecht, inden
Jare 860. doen de Zeevis voor de Stad Uy-
trecht gevangen worde, en meer ander won-
ders geschiede, dat in de Cronijken te vin-
den is, op welken over langs de Rijn heen
veel Sloten en Casteelen gebouwt zyn: Als
daar ware Wiltenburg boven Uytrecht, Room-
burg niet verre van Leyden, de Burgt binnen
de Stad met de Burgen tot Rijnsburg en tot
Valkenburg, en alle welke Casteelen die men
daar na Burgen noemde, ongetwyffelt van
de Romeynen gesticht zyn, tegen den aan-
val en oploop der Heydenen en andere ha-
re vyanden. Verhaalt wyders van 't Huys te
Britten, ofte Brittenburg, en stelt voorts
verscheyden Antiquiteyten ontrent dese Ca-
steelen en Burgen gevonden: Onder andere
seyt hy ook desgelykx is de Burgt die buy-
ten de Hoogewoerts-poort, niet verre van

11
Leyden lach, genoemt, Roodenburg, over-
mits de roode Tichelen en Estrikken die daar
in groote menigte gevonden wierden, soo ik
my van eenige heb laten seggen, en hier zijn
ook kopere Afgoden gevonden, en kostely-
ke gesteenten, veele Medalien, en Marmor-
steenen en met Roomsche Titulen en Op-
schriften: En verhaalt mede van Voorburg, en
segt watter van is ofte niet, ik houde my verse-
kert, dat daar ook een Roomsch gebouw ge-
staan heeft, want'er veel vreemdigheden en
Antiquiteyten gevonden werden, en wort
veel vreemdigheyt vertelt van den Koning
Aurildulus, en van zyn groot Kasteel by Voor-
burg gebouwt.
Wel aan dan, laat ons gelooven dat de Ro-
meynen na de tyden van Tacitus, 't zy om
dat se de lieden hier onder dwang wilden hou-
den, ofte dat zy dit deden om de Heydenen
(daarse nochtans geen Christenen waren)
ofte vyanden uyt den lande te weeren, vele
sloten en Kastelen ontrent den Ryn, en voor
namelijk by Leyden gebouwt hebben; wat sal
ons dan hinderen omme te geloven dat de sel-
ve ontrent de uytgank van den Ryn by Pet-
ten, desgelyks deden, op datse daar mede
de Noormannen en Deenen uyt ten lande
mochten houden, die dog by na 't alderlang-
sten in 't Heydendom gesteken hebben, en ge-
slagen vyanden, niet alleen van Heerschap-
pye der Romeynen, maar ook van de Vrie-
sen, en Hollanders waren? want warelik de
plaatse van Vroonen was daar toe beter als een
van alle de andere gelegen aan den Ryn. Ik
hebbe in myn Zaanlantsche Arcadia ver-

12
haalt 't geene my dunkt dat hier mede te passe
komt, dat de Zaan haar beginsel genomen
heeft uytten Ryn by het oude Slot Roomburg,
die de Romeynen op de mond van de Riviere
getimmert hadden omme niet alleen de vaart
door den Rijn na Catwijk te beheerschen,
maar ook die door Kennemerland na de
Noortzee geloopen heeft, op datter geen sche-
pen door dese twee uytvallen van den Rijn, op
nog neder soude varen sonder believen van de
Romeynsche Oversten, &c. En gelijk het een
Burg der Romeynen geweest is tot verseeke-
ring van hare Heerschappye, so is ook Vroonen
geweest om haren staat des te beter te bevesti-
gen. Welke ons ook niet duysterlyk (so my
dunkt) te kennen geeft den Enkelden Arent,
die de Heeren van Vroon tot haren Wapen en
Zegel gebruykt hebben, als die sy doen ter tyd
van de Romeynen (daar zynde) al ontfan-
gen hadden: Want de verdubbelinge van des
Keysers Arent is eerst geschied ten tyden van
den Keyser Constantinus; in 't Jaar van 330.
als wy verhalen sullen in 't achtste Capittel,
ende dit soude nog meerder schyn hebben, ter-
wylen voor die tyd de Romeynen hier de mme-
ste besittinge hadden, en namaals so niet. In
het jaar van 65. na de geboorte Christi, bouw-
de een seeker Ritmeester, zynde Roomsch
balling, 't Slot Anthonius, dat de Slaven en
Wilden, woonende ontrent Dordrecht, ver-
destrueerden 122. Jaren daar na, en voorts
weder herbouwt, noemde het Wiltenburg, dat
niet verre van Uytrecht aan den Rijn was,
maakten daarom mueren en poorten. Dit is
van Valentianus de Keyser neder geworpen. En
schoon men van het besit der Romeynen geen

13
seker bewysen konnen hebben soo mach myn
nogtans uyt de omstandigheyt van 't bouwen
der Burgeren ontrent den Ryn, wel geloven
datse het besetten, en die van Vroonen metten
enkelden Arent versien hebben, in de tus-
schen tyden van C. Cornelius Tacitus, ver-
maart Historyschryver der Romeynen, en
van harent wegen Rentemeester in dese Lan-
den, na Constantinus de Keyser beloopen-
by na 300. Jaren.

- - - - - -

HET III. CAPITTEL.
Geen volk was de Stad Vroonen en hare
gelegentheyd dienstelyker, dan de ver-
woede Deenen en Noormannen, aan de eene
zyde omme haar sitstoel des Oorlogs aldaar te
maken, als verhaalt sal worden, en aan de an-
dere zyde omme de naast-gelegene Landen
tollen, desgelyks schattingen af te parssen,
voornamelyk van Hollanders en West-vrie-
sen: De tollen trokkense van de schepen die
op en af den Ryn wilden varen met hare goe-
deren, so te vooren gedaan was. De schattin-
gen waren lastgelden diese de lieden door de
wapenen en hun groot gesag afdrongen: O-
versulks hebben de Koningen hier een Tri-
buythuys doen maken, daar (so men schryft)
Saxus Grammaticus veel wonders van ver-
haalt. Dog het geene dese soo seer geachte
Schryvers hier van getuygt, hebbe tot myn
groot leetwesen noyt konnen bekoomen.
Het is altyd sekerder van henlieden datse
Vroonen besetten hebben dan van de Ro-
meynen, ik heb geseyd om haar Zedum

14
Bellum aldaar te houden, van dit sal ik meer
bescheyt doen in 't elfde Capittel. Dog op dat
men dies te beter dit uyt mijn voorstel sou-
de mogen bevestigen, sullen daar van eeni-
ge dingen verhalen uyt onse Historyschry-
vers, so vele als die zijn, die staande hou-
den dat de Noormannen en Deenen hier
lange heerschappye gehad hebben. Boxhor-
nius schrifter dit van: de geleerde komen
niet over een, wanneer de Noormannen Hol-
land overwonnen hebben, en aldaar haar
volk aangevoert; en dit is niet te verwonde-
ren, daar in die tijden so groot gebrek van
Historyschrijvers was, &c. En vorders Junius
die dunkt dat dit overvallen der Deenen
gedaan is in 't Jaar onser verlossinge 837. als
Duerstede door 't sweert en yver verdestrueert
is geweest, en de Vriesen Contributie afge-
eyscht, (hier is wel in acht te nemen van 't
Tribuyt-huys tot Vroonen,) na het getuygenis
van Sigebertus P. Opmerus [?] soude gedaan zijn
in 't Jaar 682. maar ik en weet niet wat Au-
theur hy daar in volgt: Andere schryven op
een ander Jaar. Wy sullen onse meyninge of-
te gissinge hier van niet verswygen. Het
is dan gelooffelyk dat de Noormannen defe
Contreyen door den Oorlog aangevochten,
en overweldigt hebben eenige hondert Ja-
ren (want den oprechten en waaragtigen)
tyt en kanmen niet teenemaal versekeren)
voor de opregtinge van de Graaflykheyt, en
dat sommige van haar die uyt het Deen-
sche Hollant gekomen waren, dese plaats
eerst ingenomen, en van haar eygen na-
me Hollant genoemt hebben, &c. Wy-

15
ders, dat de voorsz. Noormannen in de vol-
gende tyden van de Koningen van Vrankryk
aangevochten zynde, van de selve somtyts
verjaagt, somtyts ook de Victorie bevochten
hebben, en dat sy onder regeeringe van Dirk
den eerften van dien name, Grave van Hol-
lant, niet te eenenmaal in route geslagen zyn,
gelyk men tot nog toe gemeent heeft: Maar
dat zy in de besittinge van't Lant gebleven, en
wy daar van af komstig zyn, want het kan
gebeurt zyn dat de Franschen na veel vech-
tens dit Land den Noormannen om daar in
te woonen overgelevert hebben; ofte dat de
Noormannen 't selve met gewelt ingeno-
men hebbende, door Houwelyken en an-
dere soodaenige alliantien met andere na-
buerige Vorsten, haar selven daar in met
kracht gesterkt, en alsoo vastelyk behouden
hebben, &c. Regina getuygt dat de Noor-
mannen op't Jaar 884. uyt Denemarken in
Kennemerlant, het welke 't hert van Hollant
is, gekomen zyn, op datse door last van Gode-
froy, den Ryn (verstaat by Vroonen) opva-
ren souden: Zoo souden de Noormannen
op't Jaar 862. niet verdreven zyn geweeft.
En men moet weten (seyt hy elders) dat
de Noormannen die in Hollandt geseten wa-
ren, met haar gebueren en omleggende volke-
ren ontrent dien tyt, een groot ende swaar
Oorlog gevoert hebben, dikwyls verwon-
nen, en dikwils verwinnaars zynde, alsoo
hebben zy op het Jaar 837. de vermaar-
de en voortreffelyke Stadt Duerstede met
vyer en swaart verwoest, en de Vriesen, die
zy alreede overwonnen hadden, onder

16
contributie gebracht, &c. De naamen
van veele Steden en Vlecken vintmen in
Hollant die over een komen met de namen
in Denemarken, als Schagen, Bergen, Val-
kenburg, Haarlem, Workum, Woerden en
Noortwyk. Uyt welke de doorgronders van
de Nederlantsche outheyt, voor vast en on-
getwyffelt houden, dat de naam van Hol-
lant uyt dese wortel gesprooten is: dit heb-
ben wy uyt het Toonneel van Holland door
Boxhornius beschreven, dus wytloopig wil-
len verhalen, om te betonen, dat de Dee-
nen en Noormannen, lange voor die tyden
der Graven van Hollant, dit Lant al bese-
ten hebben, hoewel dat onse Historyschry-
vers weynig vermelding daar van doen voor
den Jare van 80. en is na myn gevoelen wel
te gelooven, terwylen zy in verscheyden tog-
ten niet alleen de Hollanders, maar ook de
Wilden, Slaven, Vranken en andere volkeren
overvallen hebben, houdende hare besittin-
gen en besettinge in Vroonen, te meer om
dat hy seyd dat zy in de besittinge van dit
Land gebleven, en wy daar van afkomstig
zyn, en de Chronijken getuygen, van haar
verscheyden invallen in Hollant, en segt
Schriverius, dat dit baldadig volk met een
groot getal van Schepen den Ryn opgeko-
men zyn, en dat het gantsche Land doorliepen
met schenden, moorden, branden en roo-
ven. Daar na seyd hy, Anno 847 als dit
volk noch niet versadigt was, zynse den
Ryn wederom opgekomen, verstoorende en
verwoestende na haar oude gewoonte, Ste-
den, Dorpen, Kasteelen, Sloten, en al wat

17
se onderwegen vonden. Ook desgelyks in
het Jaar van 856. verdervense in Zuyt hol-
lant onder anderen ook de Sloten tot Voor-
burg en Noortwyk, doodende S. Ieroen die
daar Priester was, en Rynland aldus te vyer
en swaart verwoest hebbende, heeft dit scha-
delyk volk Kennemerlant ook aangetast,
alles ter neder werpende, verdestrueerden de
Egmond met S. Aalbrecht Kerke aldaar; uyt
welke wel te begrypen is dat de Deenen en
Noormannen, en in dese tochten en diese te
voren mochten gedaan hebben, Vroonen, tot
haar loop plaats met hare Schepen genomen
hebben, daar hun Tribuythuys was, en hun
best gelegen, om'er uyt Deenemarken aan te
komen, te havenen, en voorts den Ryn op
te varen.

- - - - - -

HET IV. CAPITTEL.

Ick heb sulks voor tegenwoordig (doch
me mocht het hier onnodig achten) om-
me te bewysen dat Vroonen een heel oude
Stad is geweest; maar my wel bedenkende
hebbe noch noyt eenige Schryver doorgesien,
de welke gelooft heeft, datter de Stad van
Vroonen geweest is, of hy heeft de selve oud
geacht; daarom seg ik, men mocht het hier
onnodig achten dit andermalen te verseeke-
ren, terwylen genoegsaam uit de drie voor-
gaande Capittelen blykt datse Overout is (so
men somwylen dit woordeken gebruykt,
omme van een ongemeene ouderdom spre-
ken.) Doch wy willen ten overvloet, haar
oude Heerlykheyt en gelegentheyt bevesti-

18
gen, en verhalen eenige geschiedenissen,
die aauwysen datse in die overoude tyden,
seer bequaam lach om met schepen daar aan
te komen en te havenen. Hoewel van dit des-
gelijks in 't tiende Capittel breeder gesproken
sal worden van hare gelegentheid aan een uyt-
gank van den Ryn, welke Rijnspruchtels, ou-
derdom en vaarbaarheid men oordeelen kan
uyt de afvloeyinge des Rijns door Kenne-
merland, ofte foo de oude Schryvers getuy-
gen, in het midden door Batavia, met de
woorden van Plinius, die voor veel hondert
jaren geleeft heeft. Corbulo, een Veltover-
ste der Romeynen in Duytsland, de Galli-
sche, ofte Fransche Kust verlost hebbende
van de Zeeroovers, is getoogen na de Vrie-
sen, daar mede bevredigt zijnde, heeft de-
selve om hun in tucht te houden, een sterk
guarnisoenplaats gemaakt, waar mede de
stad Vroonen (segt Hoeve) wel verstaan wort.
So dit waar is het geene hy hier segt, en in
zyn Chartre Chronyk schrijft, lib. 3. cap.14.
soo gaan dese twee dingen vast; Eerstelyk,
dat de Romeynen, als wy verhaalt hebben,
Vroonen vast gemaakt hebben tot een Guar-
nisoenplaats, en most geschied zyn geen hon-
dert jaren na ons liefs Heeren Christi geboor-
te. Ten anderen, dat'er als doen alreede
een bequame Haven was om met zyn sche-
pen daar in te komen doen hy de Zee ge-
veylig hadde, als hier uyt wel gevat kan
worden. Desgelykx segt Hoeve, dat Civilis
den Batavier zyne schepen na boven tegens
den Rijnstroom optrok, dat niet verre hier
van daan geweeft is. Van den Ryn by Vroo-

19
nen, de Haven, en wat diergelyks mag we-
sen, heeft van der Hoeve breed en seer aar-
dig beschreven in het voorgemelde Boeck,
dito ?? cap. 3?. Hy heeft ook in het 11.
Capittel te vooren verhaalt van St. Ursula,
die wel haar elf duisend Maagden aan de
Ryndeuren en tot Vroonen in Westvriesland
te scheepe quam: zy wort genoemt met
Maagden aldaar aangekomen te zyn; som-
mige seggen datter ook Weduwen onder
waren, dit word op 't Jaar 383. gesteld,
doense uyt Brittanien reysden, om aan ge-
lyk getal van soldaten in Armorien ten Hou-
welyk besteed te worden; doch gevallen
door tempesten binnen de Ryndeuren, en
voorts tot Verona in Vriesland; voorders in
de handen der Picten en Hunnen, (dit wa-
ren mogelyk Zeerovers, die wel eer in Yr-
lant, en namaal in Schotland woonden)
van welke tot Oversten waren Melgo ende
E????, als zy haar selven tot hunne wellus-
ten niet begeven wilden, zijn al te samen,
so geschreven word, vermoort en omge-
bracht, ten tyden des Keysers Justiniani, in
het Jaar 698. als Wilfridus Bisschop, en
Willibrordus aldaar aanquamen; van Wilfrit
verhalen wy in de Opkomste van Alkmaar,
in 't vierde Boek in 't eerste Capittel. Wy
hebben ook in 't voorgaande geseyt, dat de
Deenen, uyt last van Godefroy, alhier den
Ryn opvoeren, na de getuygenisse van Re-
gino, die op dien tyt leefde, welke bequaam-
heyt der Haven, en gelegentheid voor de
Deenen, om tot Vroonen en voorts in Hol-
land te komen, groote oorsaken gegeven

20
hebben totten inval, en tot so veel verwoe-
stingen in de Landen hier ontrent. De Ro-
meynen en de Vriesen hielden ten tyden
Tiberius een slachtinge in Weft-vriesland, om
de nabuurheid van den Rynstroom, door
welkers middelmond Apronius, der Romey-
nen Oversten, zyn volk wederom te scheep
heeft wech gevoert: Dese Slag geschiede
by het Bosch Baduhinne, in West-Vriesland.
Leeft hier van Winsemius, lib. I. folio 22.
Hier uyt soude men ook afnemen konnen
dat de Romeynen Vroonen doen ter tyd be-
saten, en datse overmits eenige saken van den
Ryn die daar voorby liep, in Oorlog ge-
raakt waren: Dat ook Apronius zyne sche-
pen Van Vroonen uyt de Haven gevoert had-
de tegens de Vriesen, doch de slag bequam
hem niet wel, en hy keerde weer te rug met
zyn schepen en overgebleven volk.
Wouter van Gouthoeven, in zyn verbeter-
de Hollandsche Chronyk, sprekende van het
Dorp Bergam ofte Bergen, dat het bewesten
den Ryn lag, segt daar op voorder : Hier
uyt blykt dat den Ryn, met eenen arm dwars
door Rynland tot Alkmaar, Egmond, en Ber-
gen toe, in dien tyden mede in Zee geloo-
pen heeft, alsoo kennelyk is uyt de oude
Historyschryvers, dat de Deenen en Noor-
mans met hun schepen hier by somtyds aan
land gekomen zyn om rooverye te stichten,
gelyk Philippus Comineus, die over 140. ja-
ren (seyt hy ontrent 1618) geleeft heeft,
schryft in zyn Historie van de Koning Lo-
dowyk de elfste van Vrankryk, en verhaalt
dat Eduart de vierde van dien name, Ko-

21
ning van Engeland, uyt zyn Koninkryk voor
zyn vyanden vluchtende, met drie schepen
en 700 mannen na Holland toe, uyt vreese
van de Oosterlingen, die met acht schepen
op Zee waren, genootsaakt was lager aan
Holland naar Weft-Vriesland te zeylen,
en dat hy quam by een kleyn stedeken Alk-
maar genaamt, en ankerde zyn drie schepen
soo naar de Stad als men konde, alsoo door
leeg water de schepen in de Haven niet wel
komen konden, uyt het welke Gouthoeven we-
derom een besluyt maakt, dat als doen de Ryn
aldaar mede in de Zee liep, welk mits-ge
voelen in myn Zaanlants Arcadia tegen
gesproken hebbe, overmits doen den Haven
al lang geslooten had geweest, en selfs lag
by Petten, over dese opening, Anno 1400.
al een Dyk, die XXI. jaren daar door brak.

- - - - - -

HET V. CAPITTEL.

Oorspronk des naams van Vronen: wat Vroonen te seg-
gen zy; Waaruyt ook 't woordeken van Vryen
Vrank gekomen is.

IN het eerste Capittel is gesproken (uyt
Winsemius, en uyt andere Schryvers) van
't bouwen der stadts Vroonen; desgelyks ook
aangeroert de oorsprong van haar twee eer-
ste namen, de derde sal de twee volgen.
De gemelde Schryver (op dat ik zyne woor-
den hier wederom by voege) segt dat Friso de
Stad na zyn vrouwe Vrouw-geest genoemt
heeft, en de Romeynen daar na, ingelyk-

22
heid van het Italiaansche Verona, Veronam.
Wat de naam Vrouwgeest betreft, is mogelyk
by de geleerde man sottelyk beraamt, en heeft
de sake uytgedrukt na de woorden die bloot
leggen, Vrouwgeest, ofte Vroon op de Geest,
een eenige letter maar veranderende: Ofte
nu by verloop van tyden de naam is uytge-
sproken voor VrouVron, gelyk de namen van
Steden en Plaatsen dese omwentelingen by de
gemeene man onderworpen zijn, als te zien
is in de navolgende, voor Alle-meeren, Alk-
maar, voor St. Pancratius, St. Bankers, voor
School te rel Schorel, voor Medemelacha ofte
Medenblinkt, Medenblik, ofte by sommige
Memelik; voor Enkelhuysen, Enkhuysen, en
wat sal ik niet seggen voor Heerlems-stad,
Haarlem, en diergelyke, of ook de Ingesete-
nen liever gehad hebben. Een Vron ofte vrye
naam, dan die van een Vrouwe: hoe wel
dat veel van de voortreffelykste Steden in Ita-
lien, Griecken, Kleyn Asien, Egypten, &c.
na Vrouwen genoemt zijn, dat is niet seeker-
lijk te seggen: men vind nergens in eenige
oude Chronijken, Opschriften ofte Schrif-
ten, dat woordeken van Vrouwgeest; maar
wel Vrolen, Vronlen, Vron, en ten meesten
tijden Vroon op de Geest, als in 't vervolg wel
blijken sal; so uyt het Zegel der Stad, uyt
de giften der Graven, en uyt de oude beschry-
vingen. Het kan licht wesen dat Frisus wijf
Frouwe? geheeten heeft, maar Geest heeft zyn
besondere eygenschap, terwylen het een
Hoogland beteekent, dat hem verheft boven
de Broeken en lage Beemden, lager zynde
dan de Bergen, ook minder dan de Heuve-

28
len, wort daarom by de Swirtsers een Tal,
by de onse een Dal, en by de vreemde Vol-
keren een Valeye genaamt, leggende ontrent
de verheven hoogte der Bergen, en laagte
der Broeklanden, Poelen en Moerasschen,
gelijk Vroonen gelegen heeft, en noch het
seer oude Buertje van Zaangeest (in de ban-
ne van Bergen bewesten den Rijn) leyd.
Ook is de name van Verona by de alder-
kloekste Schrijvers tot den selven gedaan,
en de Uytlandische best bekend. Dan wel
Vrougeest, van welke men de getuygenisse
kan sien in de Latijnsche en Nederduytsche
schriften.
Wy moeten ook eens innesien wat het
seggen van de Romeynen beduyd heeft, die
dese Stad in gelykheyt van 't Italiaansche
Verona Veronam noemden. Verona in Italien
leyd op een schoon en effen pleyn, gekeert
na 't Zuyden, Oosten, en Noordwesten, in
't Noorden allengskens sich wat verheffen-
de; welke hoogte ofte heuvelkens haar een
gedaante van een Theatrum ofte Schoutoo-
neel geeft: op het hoogste der heuvelkens
leggen twee brave Kasteelen, en men vind
daar ontrent noch een oud Casteel, het wel-
ke gemeenlijk Citadella genaamt word, hier
worden noch guysenderley Antiquiteyten
gevonden, die getuygen van hare oude Heer-
lijkheyt en Rijkdom. Soo wanneer dit nu
waar is, datter eenige gelijkheyd tusschen de-
se plaatsen geweest is, soo het ook wel ge-
weest mag zijn, hebben wy veel voortref-
felijkheyt van onse Westvriesche Verona te be-
denken: Wat dat Vroonen mede gekeert

24
was naa het Zuyden, Oosten en Noord-
westen (verstaat in de vlackte ofte ook in de
gedaante des Stads) wie kander tegens seg-
gen met blyckende redenen? Wy houden
't geene van Verona in Italien gesegt is: Het
eerste moet nootsakelyk waarzyn, na de ge-
legentheid des Stad yder die 't gesien heeft,
en de Hetrusschen wonderlyk wel bekend:
Het ander kan waar zyn, mids dat men de
boessem van den Ryn-spruchtel, niet alleen
tot Bergen (daar men de schepen van ouds
mede bergden) maar boven dit, datmen een
boessem (voor het Vaartuyg (binnen in de
Stad noch vind, loopende tot aan het Merk-
veld (een oude Antiquiteyt van Vroonen) daar
alle Goederen, die den Ryn opgevoert most,
uytgescheept wierden, gelyk in een Stad ge-
schied die Stapelrecht heeft; en oversulks sou-
de Vroonen halvemaans gewyse gelegen heb-
ben, met hooft en de voeten aan den Ryn
(by my de Zaan genaamt) en de rugge na het
Ooften gekeert; het hooft na Bergen ofte in
't Noord-westen, en de voeten na 't Zuyd,
mits de gemelde Rivier meerder om het Zuid-
oosten liep. Siet nu eens, dus kan men een
saak uytvinden, waar van men geen be-
schryving vind; en dat'er gesegt word, dat
de Landen ofte de Stad allenckens in
het Noorden wat verheft, met kleyne
Berghskens: Dit is so klaar als den dach;
want Vroonen had voor 't inbreeken der
wateren in 't Noorden veel heuvelen, die
eyndigen aan de Bergen, welk den Occe-
naus uyt het Land keerden, gelyk deselve

25
nu noch doen, hebbende een ommering by
na als een halve Maan; Want de Bergen
van West-vriesland achter Vroonen leggende
ingeboogen. Op de hoogte van kleyne heu-
velkens hebben lichtelyk ten tyden datter de
Romeynen waren geweest, twee ofte drie Ca-
steelen gestaan, daar onder het voornaamste
dat van Friso en zyn nakomelingen gebouwt,
soo dat vroonen haar vertoont heeft als op
een Theatrum ofte Schouwburg, bewysen-
de haar heerlykheid en rykdom, gelykse na-
maal in haren val ook den jammerlyken on-
dergank heeft getoont.
Het is ook eens van noode dat men in-
ne ziet wat men het woort Vroonen te ken-
nen gegeven heeft, ofte te verstaan geven
wil: Eener segt op dese saake aldus: Dit
selve seyt hy (hebbende aangeroert de
woorden die in de rand der Klocxkens
gegooten zyn) doet aanwysinge om den
oorspronk des naams van deses Stads te
ondersoeken, en daar door te verklaren
datse niet Verona genoemt mag werden,
want Vroon alsoo weynig gemeenschap
heeft met Verona, als Leyden met Lug-
dunum: Maar alsoo by de oude Vriesen
en Saxen, Vroon beduyd vry (want de n
word om de klank ten vollen daar aan
geset) en Vroone beteekent tolle ofte Hee-
ren chyns, de welke de Steden ofte Lan-
den gehouden zyn de Princen ofte Hee-
ren te betalen, waar van zy vry waren,
gelyk andere Vroon-heeren; Soo hebben
zy sonder twyffel uyt oorsaacke van

26
sulke hunne vryheden, die zy van hunne
Graven en Heeren verkregen hadden, met
hun eygene oude vriessche tale willen noe-
men, Vron le Geest, vrije leden en landen;
want zy niet gehouden waren eenige chyn-
sen ofte tollen te geven, om de welke vry-
heyt te behouden, hebben zy de wapenen
(als verhaald sal worden) aangenomen, &c.
Nu 't kan wel zyn, dat gelyk de Romey-
nen de naam van Vrouwgeest verandert heb-
ben in Verona, na de gelykheid van het Ita-
liaansche, die van de Stad ook de name van
Verona vernadert hebben in Vronen, na luyd
van hunne vryheden, die best met het seg-
gen van Vroon ofte Vryheeren over een quam,
maar dat Vron ofte Vro op zyn Vriesch ofte
op zyn Sax vryheid soude bedieden, daar
van en schynt Albertus Cranzius, die de ge-
sten der Saxen soo verstandelyk geschreven
heeft) niet geweten te hebben; want hy seyt
dat eenen Hanefro, Hanover de name ver-
oorsaakt heeft, als dat de Hanestzaden wa-
ren, want Vro noemden de Deenen se-
ker Zade, lib. I. cap. 11. Vro. is ook een
woort van verheuginge, het welke met de
vryheid maagschappye heeft. Het wort
verhaalt dat Franeker in Vriesland, wel eer
plag te heeten Froen-Akker ofte Vroon-Akker,
en soude ontstaan zyn, soo men seyd, van
een gevryde Akker ofte Land daar het op
gebouwt wierd, en is metter tyd de naem
van Vroonakker in Franeker verandert. Wat
ook beroert de Tollen ofte Heeren Chynsen
die Vroonen genaamt werden, dit is van ouds
bekent geweest, en wierde doen de Vroon-

27
schoude geheeten, bestaande in Last-geleden
die men aan den Heer betalen most. Van de
selve bevind ik mede in de Voorrechten van
Waterland, dat men eenig man de Vroonschou-
de manen sou tot zyn voordeur, en dat most
weten twee zyner naaste Bueren; en gaf hy se
niet ten eynde zyner Dorpen, ofte yemand
van zynent wegen, so was hy den Heer schul-
dig een boete van twee pont. Van dese
Vroonschoude sal in 't volgende Capittel bree-
der gesproken worden, hoedanig sulks by die
van Vroonen geweest mag zyn, die nochtans
vrye lieden wilden heeten, en ook daar be-
nevens droegen de naame Friesen, Frye-
Friesche volkeren.
Mathias van der Hoeve, segt in zyn Hant-
vest Chronyk, lib. 6. folio 163. dat de Saxo-
nis Inferioris, Batavia, Frisii, Bructery, en
andere Fransche Volkeren, Franci, van de
Vryheid genaamt wierden. Beyde de namen
van Vrye en van Vranken, hebben de oude
Volkeren seer gecelebreert, en soo hooge in
waarde gehouden, dat yeder by na Frye (alias
Friesen) en Vrancken (alias Francken) wou-
de genaamt zyn; en dit was de oorsaak dat
in de Landen der Batavieren, en het boven-
ste van de Betuwe de plaatsen opwaarts gele-
gen, de name van Neder-Vrankryk ofte
Franckenlant soo lange bleef; en desgelyks
de Neder-Saxische Vriesen, die hun uytbrey-
den tot boven Uytrecht, na het Ryk van
Nieumegen, (nova magus) het welke de
Rym-Chronyk, en met hem vele andere be-
vestigen, van dit schryft M. Stocky aldus:

28
Oude boeken hoor ik gewagen
Dat al't landt beneden Neymagen
Wylen Neder-Saxen hiet,
Also al de stroom verschiet
Van der Mase en van den Ryne,
De Scheld' was dat west-ende zyne
Alsoo als zy valt in de Zee,
Oost strekkend' min no mee
Dan tot'er Lavece of ter Elve,
Die Keyser van Roomen selve
Ontsagen menighd werf dit Lant,
Wantmer wreet volk en sterck in vant,
En die quaat te soeken waren,
Dicke quamen zy met scharen
Om dat Roomsche Ryk te kranken
En verheerde de Rynvranken,
Wiltenborg hief haar Hooftstad,
Daar dat volk menigh jaar in sat, &c.
En wat lager.
De Neder-Saxen heeten nu Vriese.

Voorts seyt desen Schryver, dat'et Graaf-
schap van Hollant een stuck van Vriesland is,
en dat de Koning van Vrankryk een stuck
daar van besat, daarom noemen wyse aan
het Zuyden Neder-Franken, boven staat
Rynvranken, en aan het Noorden de Ne-
der-Saxense Vriesen, want de name (soo P.
Schriverius aantekent) van Hollant is niet veel
meer dan ses hondert Jaren bekent geweest;
dat wylen Hollant, het Sticht van Uytrecht
en ook een deel van Gelderlant, onder
den naam van Vriesland begreepen was;
dit kan ik (seyt hy) uyt de oude geloofwaar-

29
dige Schryvers beweeren; Stigebertus Geme-
lacensis op het Jaar 1009. noemt Tiel een
Stad van Vriesland, Uytrecht is by de selve op
't volgende jaar 1010. in Vrieslant geset,
desgelyks is Trajectum Frisia Urbis, by Wip-
po in vita Conradi Salici, op 't Jaar 1039.
Item by Ottho Frisingensis lib. 5 cap. 31. en
by Harmanus Contractus: by Lambertus Scaf-
naburgensis op 't Jaar 1048. word Vlaardin-
gen en Rynsburg onder Vriesland gereekent,
welke Schryvers alle op dien tyt geleeft heb-
ben, P. Schriverius out Batavia Duyts, pag.
111. De Franken (schryft eener) hebben
't jock der Romeynen van den halse gewor-
pen; alsse selve begeerig waren omme te
heerschen, so hebbense een naam bedacht
van de vryheyt, sich latende Vrancken ofte
Vrye volkeren noemen, achterlatende de ou-
de naam der Duytschen. Doch een ander
seyt, dat de Vriesen haren ouden naam noyt
verandert en hebben, en haar oude Landen
noch bewoonen; daar benevens hebben de
vrye volkeren van Vroon hun oude naam ve-
le eeuwen beseten, en na dat de Stad ver-
gaan is, soo is de waardigheit noch geble-
ven tot op desen dag, en behoud hare plaat-
se in waardige saaken, dat men deselve veel
malen gedenken moet, in de Vroonlanden;
Vroonvis en Vroonschoude, tot het welke (om
wat breeder te verhandelen) ick nu gekomen
ben.

... to be continued

UM Forum posts ~ part 17 (november 30 - december 15, 2011)

2011-12-15T03:35:00.000-08:00

Posted 30 November 2011 - 10:48 AM

To avoid a misunderstanding:

My interest in the ancestry of Halbertsma does not come from a suspicion that he might have created the manuscript, but rather, that he had a more than average interest in etymology and history, because his ancestors knew (some of) the content of it.

Cornelis' ancestors may not always have kept the manuscript a total secret. There may still be copies or other versions in private collections. Jan Over de Linden, Cornelis' great-grandfather may even have left Leeuwarden because he got in trouble talking or publishing about it. All speculation, I know. But we need that to keep our minds open for all different possible scenarios. I still hope to find out more about the OL genealogy.

######

Posted 30 November 2011 - 08:46 PM

Alewyn, on 30 November 2011 - 02:09 PM, said:
Halbertsma’s so-called involvement was first raised a hundred years after the Oera Linda Book surfaced. In the 19th century nobody even considered him to be a suspect. Yet, now, him being the mastermind behind the creation of the OLB, is being flaunted as fact. At the same time we are continuously being told that the guys in the 19th century “were not stupid/fools”.

Very good point.

######

Posted 30 November 2011 - 09:31 PM

Abramelin, on 30 November 2011 - 02:43 PM, said:
OK, so the Halbertsma's had a dog called Apol.

I promise you that if you keep looking for coincidences like this, you will find many more.

You guys (Abe and Knul) really should read and study Jensma's book before you go on with this.

His 'proof' that Haverschmidt, Verwijs and Over de Linden did it is much stronger than yours about Halbertsma, but still not good enough.

Lunatic asylums are filled with people that can prove they are being followed or that the number plates of passing cars contain hidden messages.

You will have to do much better than Jensma to be convincing.

As long as you and Knul haven't even studied his book, how can we take you seriously?

I know you read the summary but that's not enough.

It might help you see the shortcomings of your method.

######

Posted 30 November 2011 - 09:52 PM

Abramelin, on 30 November 2011 - 09:01 PM, said:
Yes, indeed: these guys from the 19th century were no fools.

When the OLB was intensely discussed in the first decade of its publication, there were still many people who had known Halbertsma, his work and his passions very well.

Your theory is that he wrote it for his own amusement, as an exercise.

If that were so, why would he have kept this activity, that must have cost him a lot of time and deep research, a total secret to all of his colleagues, friends and relatives?

And I ask again:
Why did he not include his most beloved Hindelopen in it?
Why did he use KERDEL, while not mentioning this version in his publication about churl/tjzerl?

Ah, I understand! That was the work of Stadermann and Over de Linden...

######

Posted 30 November 2011 - 10:02 PM

Abramelin, on 30 November 2011 - 09:51 PM, said:
He [Jensma] made some errors, and I have posted about them. And so did you.

But I studied his book and you did not.

You don't know what you're babbling about.

His work is still superior with great distance to that of you and Knul together.

######

Posted 30 November 2011 - 10:22 PM

Abramelin, on 30 November 2011 - 10:02 PM, said:
I am not lying: "kerdel" is a real word.

I know, but Halbertsma apparently didn't, and yet it is used in the manuscript.

Quote
And why did he not use Hindelopen??
What are you asking? Maybe he should have added his full name into to OLB?

It IS relevant, because according to your and Knul's logic the OLB is a reflection of Halbertsma's passions and obsessions.

You keep finding new ones that fit, but the ones that are NOT included in the OLB, you simply ignore.

Hindelopen was demonstrably one of his favorites, and if he wrote it for his own pleasure, he would surely have included it.

Great fantastic etymologies can be made to it...

######

Posted 30 November 2011 - 10:52 PM

Updated Top 10 by country
of people (and robots?) interested in OLB,
as indicated by the statistics of my weblog

(please forgive me, this stuff used to be my job)

01 09 United Kingdom (17%)
02 05 Russia (15%)
03 02 Netherlands (15%)
04 01 Moldova (14%)
05 03 United States (13%)
06 04 Germany (11%)
07 06 Ukraine (10%)
08 07 Latvia (4%)
09 08 France (4%)
10 -- Poland (1%)

percentages are of total top 10, as rest is unknown

######

Posted 30 November 2011 - 11:24 PM

Abramelin, on 30 November 2011 - 02:03 PM, said:
mar ek de hûn Apol,
de kat, de kanarje en de hinnen.

See page 8 of this PDF:
http://images.tresoa...etterhoeke1.pdf

That is a publication of 2005.
Hundreds of Frisians must have read it, including many people who know the OLB.

To you it's proof that Halbertsma wrote it.

To me it's proof that the name Apol was still in use in Friesland. There may have been hundreds of dogs with that name.

There's also a painter called Louis Apol (1850-1936): http://nl.wikipedia....wiki/Louis_Apol

Where do you think Halbertsma got that name from?

He probably didn't suck it out of his thumb.

It's a nice find, but I wouldn't go Halelujah about it.

Information, names, facts from the manuscript were 'singing around' in Friesland and the rest of Holland, long before it was first published.

You interpret them as inspiration for the OLB, but they can also be seen as traces from an old tradition, partly oral, partly written.

######

Alewyn Raubenheimer posted 01 December 2011 - 06:41 AM

Abramelin, on 30 November 2011 - 09:01 PM, said:
In the old days you had to travel to some faraway library, and you would only do that if you expected to find something there.

This is exactly my point. The information in the OLB covers Scandinavia, Northern and Western Europe, the Mediterranean, Egypt and North Africa, Greece, the Middle East and India.

Who in 19th century Netherlands could have had the opportunity, time and resources to gather and process all this information? It would have had to be a FULL TIME and LIFELONG occupation. There would not have been time left over for any other career.

As I have shown before, none of the historical facts in the OLB have been proven wrong since it appeared and, as Otharus have stated, none of the historical ideas that were proven wrong since the 19th century, appear in the OLB.

Quote
If Alewyn had lived in the 19th century, he would not have been able to write his book.

Agreed, and if the “hoaxers” lived in the 21st century, then only might they have been able to have created this “hoax”.

Edit:
Let us just agree to disagree with Professor Jensma without name-calling. He is still a highly respected person in certain circles.

######

Posted 01 December 2011 - 06:50 AM

The Puzzler, on 01 December 2011 - 03:06 AM, said:
Halbertsma might have even come clean but he died only 2 years after Cornelis' received it. Grandfather dies same time.

Puzzler you have just gambled away your credibility.

Halbertsma died in 1869. That is 21 years after Cornelis received the manuscript.

Grandfather Andries died in 1820. That is 28 years before Cornelis received it.

######

Posted 01 December 2011 - 07:17 AM

Abramelin, on 30 November 2011 - 11:28 PM, said:
Not once did I read anything about the OLB in both the sources I posted.

Try some mindyoga and read my reconstruction of how a 19th century Frisian culturalist like Halbertsma may have had knowledge of facts, names, ideas from the OLB, without knowing that they came the OLB.

Jan Over de Linden (c.1718-1794) was a clerk (student or scholar). He knew the content of the manuscript. He not only educated his son Andries (1759-1820) about some of its content, but also other people he trusted. He may just have told stories about Frieslands ancient past, without reveiling his source. People may have liked them, without believing they were true. He may even have presented it as fiction. He may have told stories about Apol, an ancient Frisian hero, the Frisian 'Apollo'.
Someone who would later become the schoolteacher of the young Halbertsma was one of the people who really liked this story. He would tell it to his students years later. The young Halbertsma liked this story too. He may have forgotten it later, but remembered the name. Later he named his dog after it.
He had no clue that it came from an old manuscript.

Information is not only transfered through written sources.

What we find on the internet is a fraction of the sources that exist and what exists is a fraction of what once existed.

Don't underestimate oral tradition.

######

Posted 01 December 2011 - 09:50 AM

Alewyn, on 01 December 2011 - 08:32 AM, said:
What was the relationship between Ottema and Halbertsma?

Good question, I'll read and think about it.

One thing is clear already.

Ottema and Verwijs were members of the elitarian Friesch Genootschap (Frisian Society), that was founded in 1827. It was here where the first debates about the manuscript took place.

Eeltsje Halbertsma (1797-1858) had joined in 1827, but ended his membership in 1834. To his brother Joost he wrote about this: "there are fools of all kinds" (es gibt Narren aller Art); he didn't want to be one of them. (Source Wikipedia)

Discussions about Frieslands history, language and culture must have led to strong emotions long before the manuscript surfaced.

######

Posted 01 December 2011 - 12:59 PM

Abramelin, on 01 December 2011 - 12:49 PM, said:
But its all these and other coincidences concerning Halbertsma plus his fanatic interest in Frisian history and language combined that is starting to create a picture.

If Knul would present his theory as such, rather than as an irrefutable proven fact, I would be more willing to take him seriously and discuss it.

######

Posted 01 December 2011 - 01:58 PM

Knul, do you know what societies (verenigingen, genootschappen) Halbertsma was member of? (From when till when.) I know he donated much of his collection to the Friesch Genootschap, but I'm not sure about any membership. I can imagine you have that sort of data at hand.

######

Posted 01 December 2011 - 09:34 PM

New: photo of Cornelia Kofman-Reuvers (1818-1878), daughter of aunt Aafje Reuvers-Over de Linden (1798-1849) and Hendrik Reuvers (1796-1845), full cousin of Cornelis Over de Linden (1811-1874). On the right photo she is portrayed together with two granddaughters, probably Cornelia and Teetje Zwaan (born 1863 and 1865 resp.). With thanks to Dr. F.W. Zwaan.

######

Posted 01 December 2011 - 11:54 PM

Knul, on 01 December 2011 - 06:51 PM, said:
the forgerers of the OLB knew that they had to replace -en by -a in plural nouns en infinitives, so they changed leven in leva, but forgot about it, that the noun leven = lif and not leva.

No, LIF = lijf (body), but obviously related to LÉVA (life, to live).

Originally, there was no distinction between the noun LÉVA and the verb LÉVA, just like in modern Dutch.

Het leven is goed: (the) life is good
Het is goed te leven: it is good to live

OLB also shows us that the Dutch word "blijven" (to stay/ remain; German= bleiben; Danish= bliver; Frisian= bliuwe) originally was BILÉVA; bij-leven or be-leven.

That "blijven" is related to "leven" can still be seen in the past tense:

ik/ jij/ hij/ zij bleef
wij/ jullie/ zij bleven

The following dictionaries did not have this more pure version (BILÉVA):

- Alt friesisches Wörterbuch (1786) by T.D. Wiarda
- Proeve van een Friesch en Nederlandsch Woordenboek (1832) by M. Hettema
- Altfriesisches Wörterbuch (1840) by K. Von Richthofen
- Lexicon Frisicum (1874) by J. Halbertsma

######

Posted 02 December 2011 - 12:11 AM

Knul, on 01 December 2011 - 06:51 PM, said:
I just wonder, that Otharus did not pick this up as he is the one, who is very precise in linguitics (more than I am) and compares OLBees with Oldfrisian.

Thank you.

######

Posted 02 December 2011 - 01:05 PM

Knul, on 01 December 2011 - 06:51 PM, said:
Another example: the plural of svn is svna. However in the OLB you find in many cases svnvm, but -vm is used for the plural noun after a preposition like fon, with, etc.

Plural of SVN (son): SVNA or SVNUM?

In Dutch there are two correct words for "sons": "zonen" and "zoons".

Like English and Dutch, the language of the OLB does not make a clear distinction of grammatical cases.

SVNUM is used in:
- Introduction of Adela-followers' book (3x)
- The three mothers (1x)
- Copy from burg Walhallagára (1x)
- Wichhirte's diary (1x)
- Anonymus about Black Adel (1x)
Total: 7x

SVNA is used in:
- Creation myth (1x)
- Frya's Tex (1x)
- Rights of all Fryas (1x)
- Éwa for navigators (2x)
- Copy from any burg (1x)
- Apollánja's book (1x)
- Brunno's notes (2x)
- Fréthorik's book (1x)
- Koneréd's book (4x)
- Anonymus about Black Adel (2x)
Total: 16x

Introduction of Adela-followers' book

[002/26]
THA BÁSA ÀND HJARA STORSTA SVNUM KRUPTON BY THA LODDARIGA FINNA MANGÉRTUM
[003/11]
SA KVNDON HJARA SVNUM VPFOLGJA THAM
[003/19]
[hja] HILDON VPPAR VRBASTERA SVNUM AN

Copied from walls of Fryasburch, Texland:

1) Creation myth
[006/30]
NW BÀRDON EK TWILIF SVNA ÀND TWILIF TOGETHERA

2) The three mothers
[008/19]
HJRA SVNVM WÉRON LIK HJU

3) Frya's Tex
[013/23]
WILLATH JVW SVNA FON HJARA TOGHATERUM

4) Rights of all Fryas
[026/02]
THA SVNA MÜGON THI NÁMA HJARAR TATA VPPIRA SKILDUM WRITA

5) Éwa for navigators
[027/14]
ALLE FRYA.S SVNA HÀVA LIKKA RJUCHTA
[028/21]
SA MÜGON THA SVNA THI NÔMA HJARAR TÁTA VPPIRA SKÍLDUN FORA

Copied from walls of burch Walhallagára, Seven Islands

[064/11]
SVNUM ÀND TOGHATRUM FRYA.S

This was written on all burchs

[083/27]
SÁ SKILUN THA SVNA VPSTONDA

Apollánja's book

[090/12]
HY HETH FIF SVNA WNNEN

Brunno's notes

[093/06]
THI MÁGÍ THAM SINA FRYA.S.SVNA HAGJA WILDE
[094/31]
THÉR BINNA STAND ADEL.BROST HJRA SUNA

Fréthorik's book

[118/14]
LÉR HJAM AS JEF HJA FRYAS.SVNA WÉRE

Wichhirte's diary

[124/24]
HJA SKOLDE ALREK EN DÉL TOFARA SINA SVNUM WÁRJA

Koneréd's book

[146/03]
THÉR BI HÉDER TWÉN SVNA WNNEN ÀND TWA TOGHTERA
[153/18]
THA ÉROSTA HÉTO HJARA SELVA MODER HIS SVNA ÀND THA ÔTHERA HÉTON HJARA SELVA TÁT HIS SVNA
[153/21]
THA MODER.HIS SVNA NE WRDE NAVT NI MELD

Anonymus about Black Adel

[209/11]
THJOTH.HIS SVNA THAT IS FOLK.HIS SVNA
[209/32]
THA FORSTA MOSTON THRIJA SJVGUN FON HJARA SVNUM NÉI STÁVEREN SENDA

######

Posted 02 December 2011 - 02:20 PM

Knul, on 01 December 2011 - 06:51 PM, said:
The poor about it is its grammatical inconsistency and inconsistency of spelling throughout the OLB. [...]
The OLB is full of such inconsistencies, which Halbertsma would not allow, nor Hettema, nor Verwijs nor any other linguist with knowledge of Oldfrisian.

The inconsistencies are best explained if we accept that the various texts were written in different times and regions, by different people.

There was no official grammar established by the state and there must have been countless dialects. Even today, various villages here, not more than an hour walking distance apart, sometimes have slightly different dialect and vocabulary.

The various texts of OLB are written in different styles and with different spelling-varieties and choice of words.

For supposed hoaxers this would have been a hell of a job.

So much pain for no gain at all.

It does not make the slightest sense.

######

Posted 02 December 2011 - 02:33 PM

Abramelin, on 02 December 2011 - 02:17 PM, said:
I think it is most likely that when two forms of one word are being used indiscriminately, then one of these words was once used in a different way.

When the different texts within the OLB are compared, sometimes SVNUM is used, and mostly SVNA, but within one text always consequently.

Only in the last (newest) bit, about Black Adel, both SVNA and SVNUM are used, in different grammatical cases.

I don't think the 19th century assumption that the Gothic language is an ancestor of Oldfrisian is correct.

The spelling variety of the OLB does not fit well in the dictionary theory, unless we assume that this variety was made on purpose.

About the dictionary-theory: some words were (and are still) unknown, other words were only known in different varieties (like BILÉVA).

######

Posted 02 December 2011 - 05:06 PM

Improvised translation of (part of) Ottema's reply to brochure by J.F. Berk (1877), as copied by N. Luitse in "Wordlist & Grammar OLB", based on Ottema's unpublished work (1990).

OLB is only understandable, when it is taken as it appears, that is, as a collection of texts from different times and regions, written by different people, that, kept in one family, make up a kind of family archive.

A seven year constant study of the book and every publication about it has always confirmed this conviction.

The language of the OLB does not fit into the linguistic understandings of mister Beckering Vinckers. I will gladly believe that. Neither do the Oldfrisian laws.

It also does not completely agree with the Frisian grammar of Rask & Hettema (1832).

This was based on the Oldfrisian Laws and Landrights, that, coming from various regions of the Oldfrisian fatherland, represent just as many dialects, and all differ in form and spelling. One can therefore not demand, that other manuscripts will fit into that same grammar.

From the OLB the grammar still has to be made. For that all gammatical phenomena, that appear in the various texts of it, have to be collected, sifted and arranged.

######

Posted 02 December 2011 - 07:04 PM

A spelling-variety sample, just because I felt inspired and wanted to continue something I had started before.

Otharus, on 05 May 2011 - 10:54 AM, said:
SKRÉVEN ~ 24 x

of which 6 varieties:
. . . WR-SKRÉVEN ~ 1 x (over-written = copied)
. . . VR-SKRÉVEN ~ 1 x ( ,, )
. . . E-SKRÉVEN ~ 2 x
. . . É-SKRÉVEN ~ 1 x
. . . BI-SKRÉVEN ~ 1 x (describe)
("-" added by me)

And 4 with a double-V or W:
SKRÉVVEN ~ 1 x
(BI-) SKRÉWEN ~ 1 x
(A-) SKRIWEN ~ 1 x
(A-) SKRÍWEN ~ 1 x
(the last two having I, resp. Í after the SKR-)

Total: 28 x

So the constant factor is:

..SKR...EN

and between SKR- and -EN, we find:

É - 26 x
I - 1 x
Í - 1 x

and:

V - 24 x
W - 3 x
VV - 1 x

A spelling-variety sample, just because I felt inspired and wanted to continue something I had started before.

[size="4"]Writing varieties[/size]

New-Frisian: skriuwe
Westfrisian: skroive

[hid/13] WRSKRÍVA
[004/14] VPSKRÍWA
[004/22] SKRÍWA
[051/15] SKRIWA
[061/17] SKRIWA
[061/28] SKRIWA
[068/17] SKRIVA
[087/16] BISKRIVE
[089/24] IK SKRÍW
[089/27] IK SKRÍW
[091/11] SKRIVA
[091/15] OVERSKRÍVA
[106/10] SKIWA (writing error?)
[108/19] SKÍVA ( ,, )
[112/16] SKRIWA
[114/02] SKRÍWA
[114/20] SKRÍVA
[118/32] SKRIVA
[119/19] SKRÍVA
[131/32] SKRIVA
[144/17] SKRIVA
[154/17] SKRIWA
[162/31] SKRIVA
[168/16] SKRÍWE
[195/02] SKRIVA
[196/19] SKRÍVA
[196/26] SKRÍVA
[196/32] SKRIVA
[197/17] SKRÍVA
[197/28] SKRÍWA
[198/07] VRSKRIVA
[199/11] SKRIVA

varieties with
Í: 15
I: 17
V: 19
W: 13

other varieties:
endings on -E or -A
WR-, VR- and OVER-

[097/33] SKRIWAND
[134/16] SKRIVANE
[208/12] SKRÍWANE

[008/07] SKRÉF

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Why would anyone take all this effort for a practical joke?!

Most people in the 18th century had to work hard for their money, and if they didn't, they wanted to at least have the honor for the work they did.

That someone or a few people would do all this work in total anonymity, without any financial compensation, is just utterly improbable.

######

Posted 02 December 2011 - 08:25 PM

Abramelin, on 02 December 2011 - 07:15 PM, said:
Did someone build a church around year zero in Friesland, maybe Jesus himself, or Joseph of Arimathea, or one of the apostles?

Why do you think the Christians invented the word that is now "kerk" (church)?

The classical shape of them will also have been copied from pre-christian equivalents.

Related words:

kerker (dungeon, jail, gaol, prison)
karkas (carcass)
schuur (shed, barn)
zerk (tombstone)

######

Posted 02 December 2011 - 08:36 PM

Abramelin, on 02 December 2011 - 06:30 PM, said:
Menno, where is that line from the OLB with "radbvwade"??

[007/09] RÀD.BVWDE LYDA

######

Alewyn Raubenheimer posted 03 December 2011 - 05:53 AM

Otharus, on 02 December 2011 - 05:06 PM, said:
Improvised translation of (part of) Ottema's reply to brochure by J.F. Berk (1877), as copied by N. Luitse in "Wordlist & Grammar OLB", based on Ottema's unpublished work (1990).

"OLB is only understandable, when it is taken as it appears, that is, as a collection of texts from different times and regions, written by different people, that, kept in one family, make up a kind of family archive.

A seven year constant study of the book and every publication about it has always confirmed this conviction."

This is exactly my contention. Once you realize that the Oera Linda Book is authentic, all the answers fall into place and a new and very fascinating insight into our pre-history appears.

Many of the questions we still ask today are answered, eg. Who were the original inhabitants of Greece, who were the "Sea People", the Hyksos, the Gauls, the Celts, the Trojans, etc.

Those who continue to search (in vain) for the author(s) of the Oera Linda Book, are depriving themselves (and others) of a very fascinating story.

Those who see it, or want to use it as some religious document, might as well look at Homer's Iliad and Odyssey as religious documents. Once again, they miss the whole point.

######

Posted 04 December 2011 - 07:41 AM

It is very understandable that the Dutch have difficulties accepting that the OLB might be authentic.

Dutch children are educated to believe that their pre-christian ancestors were "raw and primitive".

(I'm not suggesting a conspiracy here, this is just what we have been taught since we were christened.)

Here's a video and lyrics of a song (partly translated) from the popular "kinderen voor kinderen" (children for children) from Dutch public television.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KP_hlUYidQ

"we are the Batavians [...]
we wear clothers made of wild bears [...]
we catch boars and make wars [...]
we crawl through the mud [...]
have a bath once a year [...]
these are the manners of the Batavians; raw and primitive [...]
behavior of the year zero"

full lyrics in Dutch

Wij zijn Batavieren, een vrijgevochten stel
We leven in de buitenlucht en dat bevalt ons wel
We dragen warme kleren
Gemaakt van wilde beren
Dus mij kan niks gebeuren, ik zit lekker in m'n vel

We vangen everzwijnen en gaan op oorlogspad
Ik heb een dikke knots, dus niemand doet me wat
We kruipen door de modder
Kijk, daar zit nog een klodder
O, dat is geen probleem, want ik ga ieder jaar in bad

refrain:
Zo zijn de manieren
Rauw en primitief
Van de Batavieren
Rauw en primitief
Ik stamp, ik bonk, ik brul
Rauw en primitief
Gedrag van het jaar nul
Rrraaauuwww
En primitief

We eten elke avond voedzaam en gezond
Zonder bord en mes en vork, gezellig op de grond
We graaien met een oerkreet
De kluiven van het vloerkleed
Ik stop een halve lamsbout in een keer in m'n mond

refrain

Ik doe m'n eigen zin en niemand maakt bezwaar
Geen stoplicht en geen school, geen scheiding in het haar
Voor ons geen kinderbedtijd
Geen braafheid en geen netheid
Een echte Batavier is liever rauw dan hallefgaar

refrain

Rouw-randen om de nagels
Rauw-kost voor het ontbijt
We rau-sen, ruig en onbehouwen
Wij zijn rouw-douwers uit de gouwe ouwe tijd

######

Posted 05 December 2011 - 11:16 AM

Abramelin, on 04 December 2011 - 07:55 PM, said:
There is no proof anywhere at all that the ancient Dutch were not "raw and primitive", lol.

Yes, there is.

In the time of the Roman occupation (of the southern low lands), the Frisians were known as international traders and they saved a Roman fleet.

######

Posted 05 December 2011 - 12:34 PM

Alewyn, on 05 December 2011 - 10:14 AM, said:
“The spiritual testament of John Winkler that became known in 1916 already has, in fact, the story of what happened as far as it can be established.”

Johan Winkler (1840-1916) was a prominent member of the "Provinciaal Friesch Genootschap ter Beoefening van Friesche Geschied-, Oudheid- en Taalkunde" (provincial frisian society for practice of frisian history, archaeology and linguistics), as had been Ottema (1804-1879) and Verwijs (1830-1880).

This society, now called "Koninklijk Fries Genootschap voor Geschiedenis en Cultuur" (royal frisian society for history and culture), was one of the financing partners of Goffe Jensma's book, "De Gemaskerde God" (2004).

http://www.friesgenootschap.nl/english/index.htm

"The Frisian Society for History and Culture was founded in 1827. Our aim is to enhance the interest in the history and culture of [the province of!] Friesland and to support research in that field."

Anything "Frisian" from before 1100 AD (when Holland, Zeeland and Westflanders were also referred to as "Friesland", or "Frisia" in Latin) is not of interest to them. They aim, in fact, at stressing the uniqueness of the culture and dialect in their current province of Friesland alone.

######

Posted 05 December 2011 - 03:47 PM

Knul, on 05 December 2011 - 03:10 PM, said:
Johan Winkler did not know the correspondence between Over de Linden, Verwijs, Ottema and Haverschmidt. He only guessed and did not prove his complot theory.

I don't know whether he knew any of the correspondence or not, but that he only guessed and didn't prove his theory is correct.

The same applies to you.

######

Posted 07 December 2011 - 04:01 PM

Knul, on 06 December 2011 - 04:13 AM, said:
Just show us the Roman texts, which describe the Frisians as international traders. That they saved a Roman fleet comes from the Magnus sage ?

My source was "De rand van het Rijk" by historians Jona Lendering and Arjen Bosman.

Otharus, on 17 November 2010 - 08:07 PM, said:
1) In 12 BC the Frisians saved a Roman fleet (from Drusus) when it had gotten in trouble in the Waddenzee.
2) The Frisians of that time were already known to have a varied agriculture and to trade on distant shores.
(De Rand van het Rijk ~ De Romeinen in de Lage Landen, p.109; chapter 6 Chauken en Friezen)

######

Posted 07 December 2011 - 05:13 PM

Knul, on 06 December 2011 - 06:55 AM, said:
The list of English words in the OLB can be expanded with the word kaese = Eng. case Dutch zaak. Dutch expression: de zaak verliezen - loose the case. Ottema translates battle, Sandbach follows Ottema.

Wrong again, Knul.

KASE is Oldfrisian.

Hettema (1832): KASE = gevecht (fight)
Richthofen (1840): KASE (also spelled "case") = streit, zwist, schlägerei, gefecht (fight, conflict, battle, etc.)

The word appears twice (in slightly varried spelling) in the OLB:

[028/20]
SIN HJA AN ÉNRE KASE FELTH
were they felled (killed) in a fight

[210/24]
THAT ÁSKAR THJU KÀSE VRLÉREN HÉDE
that Askae had lost the fight

######

Posted 07 December 2011 - 05:28 PM

Knul, on 07 December 2011 - 04:53 PM, said:
Accidentely I know Arjen Bosman. The only international trade was, that the Frisians sold pelts of cows to the Romans and got a conflict about it. It was not even trade, but they had to sell as a sort of tribution.

You may 'know' him, but apparently you don't know his book:

page 109 improvised translation:

"Four tribes lived in the northern coastal area. The 'minor' Frisians lived west of the Flevo-lake in what is now North-Holland, and the 'major' Frisians lived in present Friesland. [...] More to the east, the Romans distinguished the minor and major Chauks: the first tribe lived in the provinces Groningen and Ostfriesland, the second between the mouths of Weser and Elbe. The names suggest at most a political division, as the four tribes shared the same economy, that was characterised by varied agriculture and trade on distant shores."

Dutch: "handel op verre kusten"

Many Latin texts show that the Romans had much difficulties navigating the North Sea.
The Frisians must have been excellent ship builders and navigators.

Still, Dutch history teachers at primary schools seem to portrey them as "raw and primitive"...

######

Posted 07 December 2011 - 06:14 PM

Knul, on 06 December 2011 - 07:26 AM, said:
I have seen ample factual proof that the OLB is an hoax full of anachronisms, like the story of the Cretan king Minos (born and died in Leeuwarden) and that the Frisians teaching the Greeks and Phoenicians their alfabet, who adopted monotheism long before Christianity arrived in Europe and so on.

I trust the judgement from Dr. Ottema, who was headmaster (principal) of a gymnasium (school for students of Latin and Greek) better than that of a confused librarian like you.

But even IF there were anachronisms in the OLB, that still would not prove it to be a hoax, as our ancestors might have taken the liberty to interpret history and mythology in their own way.

Do you claim to know where king Minos was born and where he died?

######

Posted 07 December 2011 - 06:24 PM

Knul, on 07 December 2011 - 06:11 PM, said:
I hope you see, that kâs-e is no warfare term (battle), but a juridical term (case).

Just have a look at the various examples Richthofen gives in which the word was used in Oldfrisian texts.

One of his translations is Schlägerei.

German Wiki:
Eine Schlägerei ist eine gewalttätige Auseinandersetzung mindestens zweier Personen.
(a violent conflict between at least two people)

######

Posted 07 December 2011 - 06:34 PM

Knul, on 07 December 2011 - 06:19 PM, said:
On the same gymnasium where students were teached the philosophy of Decartes? By the way Halbertsma went to that gymnasium.

Your Descartes argument is nonsense.

The OLB does not contain his famous quote "I think, therefore I am" (cogito ergo sum).

And even IF it did, it would not prove it was inspired by Descartes, as it may have been the other way around, or they may have had a shared source of inspiration.

######

Posted 08 December 2011 - 08:34 AM

Knul, on 08 December 2011 - 01:12 AM, said:
Philosophy of Descartes (cogito ergo sum) commented by a theologician (J.H. Halbertsma) in the OLB.
[...]
So neither Irtha nor any other created object can say, "I am" but rather, "I was".
So no man can say, "I think" but rather, "I thought".
[...]
Besides, everybody knows and must acknowledge that he is now changing, that he changes every minute even while he says, "I am",
and that his thoughts change even while he says, "I think".

Philosophers of all times have thought about thinking and being (and sometimes about their relationship).
This fragment in the OLB deals with being and thinking, but in a totally different way then you assume.

The fragments you quoted don't even suggest the relationship: THINKING => BEING (I think => I Am).

All it says is, that when you talk about the present, it's already past:

Thoughts are changing while you express them.

I don't think you WERE intelligent enough for this.

Quote
Tjebbe Hemsterhuis was very much influenced by Descartes. s. Lectio publica Tiberii Hemsterhusii de originibus linguae Graecae, edited by J.H. Halbertsma; new edition with a prefatory essay by Jan Noordegraaf and an introductory article by Anthonia Feitsma, Amsterdam-Münster 1997.

Here you have a direct link between the OLB and J.H. Halbertsma, which not yet has been discussed in the literature on the OLB.

This is how you are reasoning:

1. A fragment in OLB reminds you of Descartes
2. Descartes inspired Hemsterhuis
3. A text from Hemsterhuis was edited by Halbertsma
=> direct link between OLB and Halbertsma!

What about this one:

Descartes, who studied in 17th century Leeuwarden, was influenced by people who were (directly or indirectly) inspired by the OLB?

######

Posted 08 December 2011 - 08:43 AM

Knul, on 08 December 2011 - 01:30 AM, said:
It would be obvious to think of Menno Simonsz (Witmarsum), who was the religious leader of the anabaptists. J.H. Halbertsma was an anabaptist minister in Deventer. I can recommend to read Doopsgezinde Bijdragen, nieuwe reeks 31 (2005).

Another example of your way of reasoning:

1. OLB describes a character called MINNO
2. Menno Simonsz was the religious leader of the anabaptists
3. Halbertsma was an anabaptist minister
=> obvious connection between OLB and Halbertsma!

"Menno" is a common (Frisian) name.

######

Posted 08 December 2011 - 08:55 AM

Knul, on 08 December 2011 - 01:41 AM, said:
Ridiculous! In every sentence you use the words 'it may, you may, they may' just to cover your ignorance.

I understand that you prefer doubtless, unquestionable, irrefutable "facts".

Wouldn't it be nice if your truth would be THE truth?

Some time ago, you suggested my mind is "narrow", because I disagreed with you and criticised your reasoning.

Knul, on 26 October 2011 - 10:55 PM, said:
I is easy to critize others as Otharus does, but it does not help to solve the problems encountered in the OLB. That's why we are participating in this thread. Even if you disagree, you should respect the others, Otharus, because it says more about your narrow mind than about the mind of others.

Do you you actually know the difference between a narrow and an open mind?

######

Posted 08 December 2011 - 09:03 AM

Knul, on 08 December 2011 - 06:25 AM, said:
Apart from this biasten is a misspelling. It should read biasta according to the own spelling rules of the OLB, where -en is replaced by -a. cfr. Biwesta Pangab thêr sind tha Yra jeftha wranga, tha Gedrostne jeftha britne, aend tha Orjetten jeftha vrjetne.

You had not noticed yet, that the OLB does not have very strict spelling rules?

I have given many examples of spelling variety, which would only be normal if OLB was written by various authors in various times and various regions, AS IT SAYS IT IS.

######

Posted 08 December 2011 - 09:32 AM

Knul, on 08 December 2011 - 07:15 AM, said:
It's ridiculous to suggest, that Latin comes from Oldfrisian.

Appealing to ridicule is a sign of weakness.

Ofcourse I did not mean the Oldfrisian of the Medieval sources, but the language that must have existed in pre-Roman NW-Europe, of which the OLB-language MAY be a reflection.

Discussing with you is like playing chess with someone who doesn't know how to move the horse.

######

Posted 08 December 2011 - 11:30 AM

Abramelin, on 08 December 2011 - 11:03 AM, said:
So, either the OLB "Krylwald" means something else (not a name but a type of forest, like 'kriel forest', think 'kriel-kip' , small), or the OLB "Ljvwerde" is not Leeuwarden.

If there would have been only one Krylwald, the author would not have had to add "east of Ljvwerde".

The term Krylwald is also used in OLB to describe 'kreupelhout' (copse, coppice?) in NW-India.

I guess there were more of those woods and the Krylerwoud got its name from what was once a generic name.

######

Posted 08 December 2011 - 12:56 PM

Abramelin, on 08 December 2011 - 11:03 AM, said:
"Dwarlpada" means "slingerpaden" (winding paths). Could be your labyrinths, or just paths with many bends and twists. Not uncommon in a forest.
Sandbach translated it as "concealed path".
I couldn't find "dwarl" in any Old Frisian dictionary, but I certainly know the word "dwarl", lol. "Dwarrel" I know to mean something like idiot, fool. And we now have a word in Dutch football (no, 'soccer' is for the English, lol), "dwarrelbal" which has to do with a player not shooting the football in a straight line, uncontrolled.

I didn't know that the word "dwarrel" means "dwaas". Interesting.

The best translation for DWARLPADA imo would be "dwaalpaden" (the verb "dwalen" = stray, err, wander, roam, ramble, rove).

Newfrisian words for "dwarrelen" are: "twirje", "dwarlje" and "dwarrelje".

There seems to be a relation to the English verb "to twirl".

So the dutch word "dwalen" might originally have been "dwarlen" or "dwarla".

######

Posted 08 December 2011 - 03:48 PM

Knul, on 08 December 2011 - 01:12 PM, said:
Ridiculous!

Because you don't understand, or because you can't imagine?

######

Posted 08 December 2011 - 03:55 PM

Knul, on 08 December 2011 - 01:20 PM, said:
The OLB forgery has been composed mid 19th century.

As long as this is not a proven and accepted fact, we need to keep our minds open to other possibilities.

The post you replied to was about the OLB-spelling.

Whenever it was 'composed', it doesn't have strict spelling rules, as you suggested.

######

Posted 08 December 2011 - 04:13 PM

Knul, on 08 December 2011 - 01:22 PM, said:
So far you have not proven anything.

I didn't even suggest to have proven anything.

I merely said that it is possible that a Latin word is derived from a NW-European language (Fryan, proto-Frisian or -Germanic), instead of the other way around.

On your website you lie that Halbertsma's authorship of the OLB is irrefutably proven and that there is no discussion about its authenticity.

I'd rather not prove anything, than be a misinformant like you.

######

Posted 08 December 2011 - 04:43 PM

Knul, on 08 December 2011 - 01:35 PM, said:
The area is called Creyll. The wood was on the Creyll, indeed between Medemblik and Stavoren. Both the counts of Hollan and the Frisians claimed the area for hunting.

The author of your source used a fancy spelling, Cnull.

In "Cronyk van Friesland" it's "Creil", Westfrisians would use a "K".

And Abe is right about the relation with the word "kriel".

It makes no difference whether it's spelled as Creyll, Creyl, Creil, Kreil, Krijl, Kryl, or anything else that sounds exactly the same.

Anyone who has ever done research of old sources, knows that spelling was never strict.

My family name is very short, and still, in the 18th century alone, I have seen 5 different spelling varieties.

######

Posted 08 December 2011 - 04:57 PM

The Puzzler, on 08 December 2011 - 04:23 PM, said:
You think he might have read the OLB?

Yes, like Abe said, he refers to it several times, as if it is an accepted historical source.

This makes me suspicious about his credibility.

As long as the authenticity of OLB is questioned by many, he should at least have mentioned this, if only in a footnote.

######

Abramelin posted 08 December 2011 - 07:24 PM

A bit more about this "Medea".......

Verhandeling over het Westland, ter Opheldering der Loo- en, Woerden en Hoven
1844 / page 278

Derk Buddingh

http://books.google....20medea&f=false

The idea that the name "Medemblik" had something to do with a "Medea" already existed in 1844... no, even earlier: Hamconius (16th century) already mentioned "Medea".

But a Van den Bergh explained it as meaning "virgin".

I'd say, related to the English "maid" or the German "Mädchen".

######

Abramelin posted 08 December 2011 - 08:27 PM

Knul, on 08 December 2011 - 07:28 PM, said:
On my website I oppose to Goffe Jensma's complot theory. Authenticity is out of order for 150 years. To deny that is first class misinformation.

Maybe I am the last person on this whole website who should interfere as some kind of 'referee' between the 2 of you bickering for pages on end now - you all know I am quite capable of the same, lol - but I think Otharus' main point is that you state your theory as being a 100% fact.

Well, I am a skeptic too, but not one here, including me, has ever been able to post a theory - pro or contra the OLB - that was a 100% fact. Maybe that's why I sometimes appear to 'shift' from one to a slightly different viewpoint, and when that happens it's based on what I discovered.

I'm sorry to say, but you, Menno appear to me as fiercely defending your theory as Alewyn defends his (book).

I still don't believe at all the OLB is an authentic ancient manuscript describing an unknown ancient European culture/civilization - and that's because I'm finding more and more sources that were available to people from the 19th century (and before the OLB was published) - but I try to be flexible concerning any theory I might develop.

######

Posted 09 December 2011 - 09:58 AM

Knul, on 08 December 2011 - 11:58 PM, said:
Halbertsma appeared to have written about each aspect or topic of the OLB, even about weapons like the sax.

Your mind is playing tricks with you.

You see only the things that confirm your idea, and are blind to all contradictions.

The list of subjects in OLB that H. did NOT write about, would be much longer, while many of the things and words that he was really passionate about, don't appear in the OLB.

######

Posted 10 December 2011 - 12:07 AM

Abramelin, on 08 December 2011 - 06:58 PM, said:
Found another interesting Dutch book, from 1702:
"Oud-Heden van Zaan-Land Stavoren Vronen en Waterland door H. Soeteboom II Deel"

In this book, on page 2-3 of "Van Vroonen" (or 273-274 of 755 in the PDF), a fragment about "Attelantida" (Atlantis in a spelling that does not yet exist on the web, as far I could find with Google).

"Sodanig een History en Lant-beschryvers belydenisse behoort te wesen, (als gesegt is) want wy hier inne niet na en 'volgen de luyden (hoewel van groote geleertheyd) die werk gesocht hebben, omme te beschryven een Utopia, als den verstandigen Thomas Mores, eertyts Cancelier van Engeland, ofte van 't Eylant Attelantida, daar den Jesuit en nauw doorsnuffelende Josephus Acosta van verhaalt, het welke eenige hondert mylen groot, ontrent de barbarische kusten gelegen hadde, en in de grooten Oceaan, die ongrondelyk diep is, verdronken soude zyn, 't gene met reden men Nergens Land noemen mocht: ofte en volgen ook niet den voortreffeyken werelt wysen Plato, om te verhalen van een Stad, die noyt te vinden heeft geweest, hoewel datter een sulken Stad in des Aardryks ront wel behoorde, ofte hadde mogen zyn. Want, het gene hier verhandelt sal worden, is van een Stad ofte Vestinge, die haar wesen heeft gehad in der waarheyd, hare handelinge en doen in erusthaftigheyd, haar voorspoet in Scheepvaart en Koophandel, haar bloey en 't vallen in den verderffelyken Oorlog."

Sorry, no translation this time. Too tired.

Those books you linked to are great, Abe!

######

Posted 10 December 2011 - 08:13 AM

cormac mac airt, on 10 December 2011 - 06:44 AM, said:
There are actually three possibilities:
1) The Oera Linda Book is 100% historically accurate from beginning to end.
[...]

If you would have read the book, you would know that this is no possibility, as the creation myth (Earth giving birth to three women) is obvious fiction.

Quote
... it then CANNOT be said that the OLB is authentic as such a determination...

I use the term "authentic" as opposite of hoax (fabricated completely in the 19th century).

Perhaps the Dutch "authentiek", the German "authentisch" and the Swedish "autentiska" mean something slightly different than their English version.

######

Posted 10 December 2011 - 08:41 AM

The great-grandfather of Cornelis Over de Linden, Jan Andries'-son, had been registered at his notice of marriage in Harlingen (1745) as "Jan Overlinde", but did not use a family name when he had his children baptised in Enkhuizen between 1746 and 1764. In his testament (1783) he signed with "Jan Over Lende". When his sons get married in 1776 and 1782 they are registered as "Over de Linden".

Some considerations:

- More research in Friesland (Harlingen and Leeuwarden) is needed.

- Why was the family name not used between 1746-1764?

- It is possible that Jan Andries'-son (or one of his forefathers) adapted the name Over de Linden (in any spelling variety), because he/they had the manuscript. Cornelis is not necessarily a straight descendant (in the male line) of Okke Hiddes-son.

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Posted 10 December 2011 - 10:13 AM

cormac mac airt, on 10 December 2011 - 09:03 AM, said:
A third category, which I believe more plausible, would be that it is "semi-historical", incorporating bits and pieces of historical fact with other fictional accounts or stories, as filler, in order to tell an overall larger story. This latter category DOES NOT have to be either completely fact or fiction but also DOES NOT qualify in supporting the claim that the Oera Linda Book is 'authentic'.

If the OLB is a 13th century manuscript, it is "authentic", whatever its content.

If it's a copy of a 13th century manuscript, the content is still "authentic", however much of it is fiction.

If anyone knows a more accurate term, please share it.

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Posted 10 December 2011 - 12:19 PM

"having the origin supported by unquestionable evidence"

According to your definition no source can possibly be "authentic" as evidence is never "unquestionable".

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Posted 10 December 2011 - 02:19 PM

Alewyn, on 10 December 2011 - 07:06 AM, said:
Incidently, I wrote a week ago to Dr. Ad Maas at Semafoor who, apparently, wrote the article that I translated. I asked him whether he has documentary proof that Hellinga found the ink to date to before 1820. As to be expected, I am still waiting. You see, IF Hellinga did indeed say this and IF it is true, this will create a bit of a dillemma for the supporters of the hoax theory. This will then rule out Halbertsma as a suspect as well. It will also make a mockery of your speculation that some of the OLB text was added later.

Here is an interesting twist. Prof Jensma, in his response to the Semafoor article on the same website, claims that he was not aware of Hellinga's findings and, even if its true, it proves nothing because he believes the paper dates from after 1860. Must we then assume that the people who wrote the OLB in the 19th century used ink that was more than 40 years old? They went through years of labour to research history, concocted a new story, created a new language and script and even went through the trouble of getting old ink from goodness knows where and... used new paper!?

Very interesting!

The paper investigation of the last few years had no answer about the age of the ink.

If SEMafoor doesn't come with an answer, I will go try and find it.

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Alewyn Raubenheimer posted 10 December 2011 - 05:53 PM

The Puzzler, on 10 December 2011 - 02:59 PM, said:
I'm going 'historical fiction' as well.
As pointed out by Otharus, the parts about the birth of Lyda, Finda and Frya are certainly that.

This is what I wrote about these myths in my second edition:

Myths

"The 2193 BC disaster not only destroyed the Fryan Federation but also all memory and such records of their past as there may have been. It seems probable that Frya was their Folk Mother before the disaster. She apparently died in the flood.

"After the disaster she appears to have been elevated to the position of Earth Mother or Founding Mother by her successor. Fasta claimed to have been nominated by nobody less than Frya, and in fact, received instructions from Frya, who was now watching over them from her Watch Star.

"Exalted Frya. When she had thus spoken, the earth shook like Wralda’s sea. The ground of Flyland sank beneath her feet, the sky became black and green from tears, and when they looked for their mother she had already risen to her watch star; then at length thunder spoke from the clouds, and lightning wrote in the sky, “Watch!”
Far-seeing Frya. The land from which she had risen was now a stream, and except her Tex, all was destroyed that came from her hand.

"Fasta obviously strengthened her own hand by convincing the nation that she enjoyed divine sanction and fellowship:

"Upon my servant Fasta I have placed my hopes. Therefore, you must accept her as your Honorary Mother. If you follow my advice, she will hereafter remain my servant as well as all pious matrons who succeed her. Then shall the lamp that I have lighted for you never be extinguished. Its light shall always illuminate your intellect, and you shall always remain as free from foreign domination as the sweet river-water from the salt water of the boundless sea.

"She not only established or re-established a corpus of laws under the claimed guidance of Frya, but she also recreated their origins and ancient history:

"This stands written on the walls of Fryasburgh in Texland. It also stands in Stavia and in Medeasblik:
“It was Frya’s day, and it was seven times seven years since Fasta was appointed as Folk Mother by Frya’s desire. The burgh of Medeasblik was ready, and a Burgh Matron was chosen. Fasta would light the new lamp and this was done in the presence of all the people, when Frya called from her watch-star so that every one could hear it:
'Fasta, take your stylus and write the things which I may not speak.’
Fasta did as she was told. Thus we, Frya’s children, discovered our earliest history”

"According to this Fryan myth, that Fasta apparently invented, Wr-alda created three Earth Mothers in the beginning.

"Lyda was the mother of the black people; Finda was the mother of the yellow people and Frya the mother of the white people. From then on all the descendants were referred to as the children or people of Finda, Lyda or Frya. Frya was described as blonde-haired with blue eyes and a fair complexion. Her name meant Freedom.

"Frya should possibly be compared to Lady Justice or Justitia, with her weighing scales and double-edged sword who often adorns our courthouses or courtrooms as an allegorical personification of the moral force that underlies our legal system. Likewise, Frya was possibly seen as the embodiment of divine order, law, ethics and custom – at least during the earlier part of their history."

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Alewyn Raubenheimer posted 10 December 2011 - 06:39 PM

Abramelin, on 10 December 2011 - 05:49 PM, said:
I said a few days ago that sometimes an answer stares you right in the face, and you don't notice it.

How many times have we discussed the OLB name for Africa, "Lydia". This "Lydia" that always gets translated as "Libya", and no one knows how to explain why the OLB uses LYDIA instead of LIBYA like the rest of the planet in during ancient times.

Well, I think I found out why:

"Ludim is the Hebrew term for Lydia used in Jeremiah and Ezekiel. In the Biblical Table of Nations Genesis 10:13 they were descended from Mizraim. According to Josephus, their land was destroyed in the Aethiopic wars.

These Ludim should not be confused with another group who were said to descend from Lud, son of Shem, son of Noah.

Ludim is sometimes thought to be a typographic error for Lubim, in reference to Libyans."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludim

"Ludim (= Hebrew term for LYDIA) is sometimes thought to be a typographic error for Lubim, in reference to Libyans."

Who would make such an error (if that's what it really was...)? Some theologian, or a preacher?

A very interesting find.

I checked 6 different English Bible translations and they all say Ludim or Ludites. The Dutch (Willibrord) translation say Ludieten. The Afrikaans translation, however, says Lydia.

The Bible (at least Genesis 10:13) does not say where this Ludim or Lydia was but the OLB points to North Africa.

Clearly this is no error as it is borne out by the Hebrew text. Now either somebody in the Netherlands during the 19th century read the Hebrew Bible or the OLB knew what the ancient name was because it is as old as it claims to be.

A very interresting find indeed.

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Alewyn Raubenheimer posted 10 December 2011 - 07:46 PM

Abramelin, on 10 December 2011 - 06:45 PM, said:
To put it more clearly: not one ancient civilization used any word similar to LYDIA when they meant LIBYA. It only occurred when someone made a typo while translating from the Hebrew Bible, and by accident changed a -d- into a -b-.

Much like I have thought for all this time we are discussing the OLB.

Now let me show you what my sources say:

Smith's Bible Dictionary

LU´DIM (strife), Gen. 10:13; 1 Chron. 1:11, a Mizraite people or tribe, descended from Ludim the son of Mizraim; also called Lydians. It is probable that the Ludim were settled to the west of Egypt, perhaps farther than any other Mizraite tribe. Lud and the Ludim are mentioned in four passages of the prophets—Isa. 66:19; Jer. 46:9; Ezek. 27:10; 38:5. There can be no doubt that but one nation is intended in these passages, and it seems that the preponderance of evidence is in favor of the Mizraite Ludim.

Illustrated Manners and Customs of the Bible

Ludim, a son of Mizraim (Gen. 10:13). Possibly a reference to the inhabitants of an unknown country connected with the Egyptians.

Nelson's New Illustrated Bible Dictionary

LUDIM [LOU deam] — the first son of MIZRAIM, who was the second son of Ham (Gen. 10:13; 1 Chr. 1:11). Some scholars, however, believe this term refers not to an individual but to a people; in both passages the NEB translates Lydians and the NIV translates Ludites. Some scholars attempt to identify the Ludim with the LUBIM (2 Chr. 12:3; 16:8; Nah. 3:9), the plural of LIBYAN, a people of North Africa west of Egypt bordering the Mediterranean Sea.
There is no textual authority, however, for identifying Ludim with Lubim. Some confusion also exists because of the ambiguous way the Ludim are associated with both African and Asiatic nations.

Now let us look at what the OLB has to say (especially about the last highlighted sentence above):

The Writings of Beden

Chapter 3 – Black Adel (ca 71 BC – 11 AD)

When this was done, the people by craft and force made themselves masters of the whole. land. The people who live on the south side of the Mediterranean Sea, come for the most part from Phœnicia. The Phœnicians (Carthaginians) are a basturd race of the blood of Frya, Finda, and Lyda. The Lyda people were there as slaves, but by the unchastity of the women these black people have degenerated the other people and dyed them brown. These people and the Romans are constantly struggling for the supremacy over the Mediterranean Sea.
(A reference to the Punic Wars).

Edit:
Many people made translations of the Hebrew Bible. Are you saying they all made the same "typo"?
Let's face it. This is just further evidence of the antiquity of the Oera Linda Book.

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Alewyn Raubenheimer posted 11 December 2011 - 12:23 PM

The Puzzler, on 11 December 2011 - 09:18 AM, said:
The theory you give Alewyn of the impact event in 2193BC - do you base this mostly on the 'sun rose higher' sentence or the effects it had as described by the OLB in the 2193BC event?

Puzzler, in answer to your question, I will only deal with the 2193 BC event in this response. The 305 BC event will be dealt with later.

Herewith some extracts from my book. Please note that I have left out most references to ancient scribes, my footnote references to scientific literature and all figures - in an attempt to make this post as short as possible.

[size="3"]Survivors of the Great Tsunami (Second Edition)[/size]

Pages 22 to 24

From the Aegean and Anatolia to Egypt, and across Mesopotamia to India and the Far East, archaeologists found traces of the collapse of whole cities and civilizations. These findings are supported by ice core analyses from Antarctica, Greenland, Mount Kilimanjaro and the Himalayas. Deep-sea core drilling in the North Atlantic and tree rings in North America all point to a sudden climate change in the latter half of the Holocene. It is remarkable that all these very ancient civilizations - older than 4200 years - were remote from any oceans or seas. There appear to have been relatively little coastal development before or, more than likely, very little remained thereof.

While archaeological evidence points to widespread famine and a resultant mass migration after ca 2200 BC, climate change and the much-hypothesized resultant drought alone cannot explain the almost instantaneous collapse of these ancient societies. The onset of a drought-induced famine would have been somewhat slower.

The French archaeologist, Claude FA Schaeffer, concluded as far back as 1948 that earthquakes throughout the region caused the initial collapse while the British archaeologist, James Mellaart, later identified drought and migrations as the culprits.

Prof Harvey Weiss, professor of Near Eastern Archaeology at Yale University in New Haven, Connecticut, has been involved for many years in the archaeological work at Tell Leilan; a city of the Bronze Age Akkadian Empire on the Habur Plains of Northern Mesopotamia in modern-day Syria. He concluded that the city was suddenly abandoned in 2193 BC – exactly the same year in which the Oera Linda Book claims that the Old Frisian civilization in Western Europe was destroyed.

The Sumerian King List, describing the Akkadian Empire after the death of king Shar-kali-shari (ca. 2217-2193 BC), gives us some idea of the chaos that followed:

Who was king? Who was not king? Irgigi the king; Nanum, the king; Imi the king; Ilulu, the king—the four of them were kings but reigned only three years. Dudu reigned 21 years; Shu-Turul, the son of Dudu, reigned 15 years. … Agade was defeated and its kingship carried off to Uruk. In Uruk, Ur-ningin reigned 7 years, Ur-gigir, son of Ur-ningin, reigned 6 years; Kuda reigned 6 years; Puzur-ili reigned 5 years, Ur-Utu reigned 6 years. Uruk was smitten with weapons and its kingship carried off by the Gutian hordes.

In his paper, Desert Storm, Professor Weiss says the following:

Only decades after the city’s massive walls were raised, its religious quarter renovated and its grain production reorganized, Tell Leilan was suddenly abandoned. In our excavations, the collapsed remains of Akkadian buildings are covered with erosion deposits that show no trace of human activity.

Elsewhere Professor Weiss concluded that it would appear that some building projects were even abandoned before completion. One can only assume that these projects were started in prosperous times but they were never finished. It would appear that in the midst of this prosperity something happened which caused a sudden cessation of construction activities.

In collaboration with soil scientist and archaeologist Marie-Agnés Courty of the National Centre for Scientific Research in Paris, it was noted that the remains of the city was covered with a thin layer of volcanic ash followed by some 200mm of fine sand. She found very little evidence of earthworm activity, which pointed to a prolonged period of aridity. Prof Weiss continues:

Whether at Tell Leilan or Tell Taya, Chagar Bazar or Tell al-Hawa, the results told the same story: between 2200 and 1900 BC people fled the Habur and Assyrian plains en masse.

He compares his conclusions with other archaeological work:

In Egypt, the Old Kingdom, during which the great pyramids were built, gave way to the turmoil of the First Intermediate Period; in Palestine, Early Bronze Age towns were abandoned; in Mesopotamia Akkad collapsed and nomadic people made strange movements across and down the Euphrates and Tigris valleys.

Pages 38 to 42

4.2ka BP Tsunami & Flood Evidence

The dominant theory today is that the demise of these ancient cultures was the result of a hereto-unexplained change in global climate. We have seen, however, that none of the old scribes attributed their misery to drought per se. On the contrary, the one common denominator to all these old legends is floods. It would be reasonable, therefore, to speculate that the proposed climate change, droughts and famines were not primary causes of the catastrophe, but rather that these were the results of the initial event.

Following are only a few randomly selected scientific articles from all over the world of a possible global tsunami that happened about 4200 years ago. Please note that we have much more evidence of this event and of many other paleo-tsunamis. The aim of this investigation, however, is merely to illustrate that there is sufficient evidence to support the Oera Linda Book’s claim of a catastrophe in 2193 BC. None of this evidence was available in the 19th century.

* China

The extract of a paper written by Chun Chang Huang and others from the Department of Geography, Shaanxi Normal University, Xi’an, Shaanxi in the People’s Republic of China in 2010, Extraordinary floods related to the climatic event at 4200 a BP on the Qishuihe River, middle reaches of the Yellow River, China, gives evidence of these floods:

A paleo-hydrological study was carried out in the Qishuihe River valley in the middle reaches of the Yellow River.
The results show that successive floods occurred between 4300 and 4000 a BP in association with the abrupt climatic event of 4200 a BP. These overbank floods had the riverbank settlement inundated repeatedly.
The climatic event of 4200 a BP and the climatic decline at 3100 a BP were believed to be characterized by droughts previously. This work provides solid evidence that both severe droughts and extreme floods were parts of the climatic variability during abrupt climatic event and climatic decline in the semi-arid to sub-humid zones over the world.

* North Africa

Arguably, the most compelling evidence for the 4200 years Before Present (BP) event can be found in North Africa and the Sahara Desert. Archaeologists and Paleoclimatologists have established that, more than 4500 years ago, North Africa consisted of grassland, thorn bush savannas and the largest fresh water lakes on earth. Lake Meggafezzan and Lake Megachad, in fact, were comparable in size to Great Britain and the Black Sea respectively. The region teemed with wild life.

The great pyramids of Egypt, therefore, were not built in the desert, but in a land of plenty.

The Potsdam-Institut fuer Klimafolgenforschung (Potsdam Institute for Climate Impact Research) in Germany, headed by Prof. Dr. Martin Claussen, analyzed climate feedbacks from the last several thousand years as reported in ScienceDaily

Before that time, the Sahara was covered by annual grasses and low shrubs, as evidenced by fossilized pollen.
The transition to today's arid climate was not gradual, but occurred in two specific episodes. The first, which was less severe, occurred between 6,700 and 5,500 years ago. The second, which was brutal, lasted from 4,000 to 3,600 years ago. Summer temperatures increased sharply, and precipitation decreased, according to carbon-14 dating. This event devastated ancient civilizations and their socio-economic systems.

The change from the mid-Holocene climate to that of today was initiated by changes in the Earth's orbit and the tilt of Earth's axis.

Scientists are uncertain whether these changes in the Earth's orbit and the tilt of Earth's axis happened gradually (over millennia), or suddenly (over a few centuries). Perhaps we should ask the unthinkable: Could these changes not have happened instantaneously, such as over a period of, say, 0 to 3 years?

In pre-historic times, Lake Yoa in North Eastern Chad was part of the greater Lake Megachad and then, about 4000 years ago, its waters suddenly turned salty. This happened around the same time when the salt content of the ground increased at Tell Leilan in Syria, more than 2500 kilometres away. Scientists speculate that the cessation of fresh water recharge to the lake from rain or rivers and subsequent evaporation would have dramatically increased the salt content over the ensuing millennia. Archaeologists, however, noted that the salinity suddenly increased 4000 years ago. This was not a gradual process. Many of the lakes in North Africa today are salt-water lakes.

* The Caribbean

Dr. Sander R. Scheffers of the School for Environmental Management and Science at Southern Cross University, NSW, Australia, and others, in an article, Tsunamis, hurricanes, the demise of coral reefs and shifts in pre-historic human populations in the Caribbean, noted:

Three extreme impacts with different magnitudes can be clearly distinguished. The youngest event occurred at approximately 500 BP, a second event at 3,100 BP, and the oldest at 4,200 BP (Scheffers, 2002; Scheffers et al. 2006).

* The Netherlands

Otto S. Knottnerus from Zuidbroek in the Netherlands wrote an article, Sea Level Rise as a Threat to Cultural Heritage, in the Wadden Sea Newsletter 2000 (No. 2). Of note was the following statement in the article:

Near Delfzijl (Netherlands), Neolithic settlers built a megalithic-chambered tomb about 3350 BC. After 2200 BC, the site disappeared under several feet of clay and peat

In the Oera Linda book’s account of the 2193 BC disaster that struck the west coast of Europe, we read:

Rivers changed their course, and at their mouths, new islands were formed of sand and floating animals.

* Spain

Francisco Ruiz from the Department of Geodynamics and Palaeontology, University of Huelva, Avda, Spain, and others, noted in the research article, Evidence of high-energy events in the geological record: Mid-holocene evolution of the southwestern Doñana National Park (SW Spain):

This was followed by a renewed phase of instability ( 4200–4100 cal. years BP) indicated by the presence of fine storm-lain deposits and thicker, probably tsunami-induced shelly deposits.

* Sri Lanka

Ranasinghage, P. N et al in Signatures of Paleo-coastal Hazards in Back-barrier Environments of Eastern and Southeastern Sri Lanka:

The most recent pre-2004 tsunami event likely occurred around 1000 yrs BP with the older events around 4200 yrs BP and 4900 yrs BP.
The ~ 4200 and ~ 4900 yrs BP events were recorded in multiple cores from Kirind and Vakarai as well as in cores from Hambantota by Jackson (2008).

Pages 49 to 51

The Oera Linda Book

An important piece of evidence as to the severity and possible cause of the event is locked up in the Oera Linda Book in the description of their land before the 2193 BC disaster:

Before the bad time came our land was the most beautiful in the World. The sun rose higher, and there was seldom frost. The trees and shrubs produced various fruits, which are now lost. In the fields we had not only barley, oats, and rye, but also wheat which shone like gold, and which could be baked in the sun's rays. The years were not counted, for one was as happy as another.

Nowhere do they hint at a change in earth’s orbit, axial tilt or a cosmic impact except for four little inconspicuous words: Before the disaster, the sun rose higher. This is a clear indication that earth’s orientation relative to the sun had changed. It is also obvious that this happened very suddenly and not over millennia or even centuries as some are suggesting.

This description in the Oera Linda Book is confirmed by the observation made by scientists from the Potsdam Institute for Climate Impact Research in Germany:

The change from the mid-Holocene climate to that of today was initiated by changes in the Earth's orbit and the tilt of Earth's axis.

This information was not available in the 19th century and is compelling evidence that the Oera Linda Book is authentic.

It is also noteworthy that the Oera Linda Book describes their land as having been warmer before the disaster. This is precisely what modern climatologists are now concluding for mid-Holocene Europe. Neither the original authors nor any so-called forger in the 19th century could have realised the enormity of this seemingly unimportant observation. Again, this is undeniable evidence that the Oera Linda Book is authentic, or at least based on factual information. Even the best deceiver in the 19th century could not have foreseen the 21st century AD indications of a change in Earth’s orbit or a pronounced climate change some 4200 years ago.

Earth may have wobbled for a while after the blow before settling in her new orbit. The Oera Linda Book states that the Bad Times lasted three years.

The Book of Enoch
In the Book of Enoch, which is considered non-canonical and pseudepigraphical (falsely attributed) in almost all Christian churches, we find the following:

Chapter 55
(4) And when that agitation took place; the saints out of heaven perceived it; the pillar of the earth shook from its foundation; and the sound was heard from the extremities of the earth unto the extremities of heaven at the same time.

Chapter 64
In those days Noah saw that the earth became inclined, and that destruction approached.(2) Then he lifted up his feet, and went to the ends of the earth, to the dwelling of his great-grandfather Enoch. (3) And Noah cried with a bitter voice, Hear me; hear me; hear me: three times. And he said, Tell me what is transacting upon the earth; for the earth labours, and is violently shaken. Surely I shall perish with it. (4) After this there was a great perturbation on earth, and a voice was heard from heaven. I fell down on my face, when my great-grandfather Enoch came and stood by me.

It would appear logical to assume that the statements: the pillar (axis?) of the earth shook from its foundation and, Noah saw that the earth became inclined, confirm the Oera Linda Book’s the sun rose higher. Again, we see that Earth’s orientation changed suddenly and dramatically. The Book of Enoch was re-discovered and translated after the appearance of the Oera Linda Book.

Page 65
1. The Middle Sea or Mediterranean is described as the boundary of Frya’s Land in the direction of the evening, or towards the sunset. At first it was thought that this could have been a mistake that crept in during a previous transcription. If the Oera Linda Book had been a 19th century hoax, this clumsy mistake would have been incompatible with the factual detail and accuracy in the rest of the manuscript.

The Mediterranean lies south of the Netherlands whereas the sun sets in a southwesterly direction at the winter solstice. This is the most southerly position of the sunset after which it gradually moves to its northwesterly position at the summer solstice.

As stated before, the Book of Adela’s Followers was compiled in ca 558 BC. This is some 1700 years after the 2193 BC event. The description given of Frya’s land, however, was not as it was in 558 BC, but rather as it was before 2193 BC. The chapter starts with:

This stands inscribed upon all burghs. Before the bad time came… (My emphasis added).

In light of the evidence given in Chapter 1 of a change in the earth’s orbit and axial tilt, the above anomaly does not seem to be so far-fetched after all. In fact, this could be further proof of a sudden change in earth’s orientation relative to the sun around 2200 BC.

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Posted 13 December 2011 - 12:14 AM

Abramelin, on 11 December 2011 - 08:59 PM, said:
"...even as vampyra dva."
"...like leeches."
No way Sandbach, not "leeches", but "vampires".

"(pyr), znw. m. Mnd. ndd. pîr; no. pîr; ndl. pier. Over den vorm van het woord (ie uit î, als in mier, lier, gier e. a.) zie Franck op pier. De oorsprong van dit weinig verbreide woord is onbekend.
↪Worm, zoowel aardworm als ingewandsworm. Teuth. pijr, lumbricus. Kil. pier, pierworm, lumbricus, lumbricus terrestris, intestinum terrae. Plant. eenen pier oft pierwurm, vers de terre, vers pour prendre poissons, lumbricus."
http://gtb.inl.nl/iW...db=MNW&id=42563

=> Pyr or pier = worm

The word vampier / vampyr will be much older than the first time it was written down.
And most of what was ever written down is gone anyway.

Ottema had "bloedzuiger" (bloodsucker; leech). I think he was right.

Vam-pyr = ???-worm; most probably a bloodsuckung worm = a leech.

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Posted 13 December 2011 - 12:29 AM

Knul, on 12 December 2011 - 05:37 PM, said:
The year 2193 is derived from the Friesche Almanak...

That is an assumption, not a proven fact.

It could be the other way around, or the Almanak and the OLB could have a common source.

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Posted 13 December 2011 - 12:41 AM

Abramelin, on 12 December 2011 - 09:41 PM, said:
Otharus explains those coincidences away by telling us that people must have somehow known about the OLB.

Not necessarily did they know "about the OLB", but they might have known information from it.

Cornelis' great-grandfather, and/or some of his forefathers may have told stories from - or based on the OLB (if they indeed had it in their possession) without revealing their source.

If that happened, it's not a coincidence that infobits show up here and there in other sources

######

Alewyn Raubenheimer posted 13 December 2011 - 07:53 AM

The Puzzler, on 13 December 2011 - 03:53 AM, said:
Evidences? From 2350BC there seems to be indications of an impact. The impact may not have occurred at 2193BC anyway, the fallout geologically may have have happened for 200-300 years. Not the most reliable website but certainly gives a complete rundown of all occurrances relating to such an event at this time.
etc., etc.
Regardless of your stance, I believe it is very possible an impact occurred 2350-2200BC.
If it's true Hale-Bopp passed in 2213 BC, it is even more likely that impacts from it could have also hit Earth.

A very interresting post, Puzzler but I am afraid it will fall on barren soil here. I do not think that Cormac and Abramelin necessarily disagree with you, but to them agreement is a sign of weakness. Why do you think they have not agreed to a single point I have made in 19 months?

Cormac gets his kicks out of sarcasm and ridiculing others; to him these are the essentials of scholarly debate. (I know, I also find it difficult to understand). The fact that he deems it necessary to muster the support of someone like Knul, is equally strange. They are indeed strange bedfellows.

Abramelin is not afraid to post things that may go against his standpoint, but then he does his utmost to show why they are wrong or do not fit. (Again, difficult to understand).

But, let me not disappoint them. Herewith some more material to keep them going. They should get a lot of pleasure from this one – it is a somewhat dramatized prologue to my second edition:

Prologue

Is this how it happened 4200 years ago?

The converging trajectories of the comets Oljato, Hale-Bopp and the giant proto-Encke had been intersecting Earth’s orbit for months; lesser asteroids and comets trapped in their wake. Those entering the atmosphere exploded high above the earth; their white-hot fragments streaking across the sky, followed by deafening sonic booms. Petrified, people watched as falling stars and flaming potsherds pummelled the planet. Raging fires and devastating air blasts laid millions of square kilometres of forests and grasslands to waste.

Then the mortal blow came. One of several large bolides struck the Indian Ocean 1500 kilometres southeast of Madagascar with the force of several million nuclear warheads; the sound heard from the extremities of the earth to the extremities of heaven. The impact flung trillions of tons of seawater and superheated steam into the stratosphere. Tectonic plates shook and rocked violently on the planet’s built-in shock absorber - the viscous magma of the underlying mantle. Around the globe volcanoes erupted. A thick ash and dust cover enveloped the earth, lit by lightning bolts emanating from the clouds. Temperatures plummeted.

Tsunamis from the impact and from thousands of earthquakes sped around the earth in a frenzy of destruction. The concentric walls of water towered hundreds of meters above the ocean as they raced towards land. Torrents of seawater rained down. Cities, towns and forests were crushed and swept away in an instant. Pulverized. Obliterated. Millions died. Those that were in the dark of night could not see it coming. They never knew what hit them.

The massive aftershocks continued for three years. Icebergs broke away from the polar caps. The resulting ice rafting inverted the thermohaline circulation of the oceans causing abrupt climate changes all over the planet.

The combined effects of the onslaught and the gravitational pull of the comets thrust Earth out of her orbit. Survivors would only notice later when the skies had cleared that earth’s orientation had changed.

In China, ancient cultures came to an end. The urban civilization of the Indus Valley in Pakistan and India was wiped out and in the Middle East, the Empire of Akkad would never recover. In Egypt, the Old Kingdom, the builders of the great pyramids, was destroyed. Over the next few centuries, the once rolling grasslands of North Africa turned to desert as the Albedo increased and rainfall decreased; the great lakes, now flooded with salt water, dried up. Man came to the brink of extinction. All that remained were the myths, folklore and legends. More than four thousand years later archaeologists would discover their relics in the sand.

In Europe, the most advanced civilization on the face of the earth seemingly disappeared without a trace. Seemingly…

This is their story.

######

Posted 13 December 2011 - 10:19 AM

Abramelin, on 13 December 2011 - 02:08 AM, said:
I think that weapon - according to the OLB - should have been made of iron.

If they had iron weapons, that doesn't mean they ONLY had iron weapons.

######

Posted 13 December 2011 - 10:32 AM

Knul, on 13 December 2011 - 04:53 AM, said:
p. 239-einde Met de komst van Friso (ca. 300 v. Chr.) is voor het eerst sprake van stalen kraanbogen (catapulten).

Page 239? OLB does not go beyond page 210.

In what fragment did you read about steel catapults?

######

Posted 13 December 2011 - 10:26 PM

Alewyn, on 13 December 2011 - 01:04 PM, said:
Iron has the nasty habit to rust. After 4000 years there would be nothing left.

Exactly.

######

Posted 14 December 2011, 08:39 AM

Abramelin, on 14 December 2011 - 12:38 AM, said:
the silence about "vampyra" is deafening

I was not impressed at all and have answered.

Pyr/ pier = worm

Appearantly, vampyr/ vampier originally meant bloodsucking worm = leech.

You have been making a major thinking error all along.

Words are (usually) NOT invented by the people who wrote them down for the first time.

We have access to only a tiny fraction of all texts that were ever written down anyway.

Language will not always have changed as fast as it does nowadays.

That the oldest texts in our language are not older than ca. 1000 years ago, does NOT mean that our language was 'invented' only then.

You interpret this 'silence' the way you want to interpret it: that you are right and we are impressed.

But the truth is, that I - more and more - understand that I am wasting my time here.

######

Posted 14 December 2011, 02:08 PM

Abramelin, on 14 December 2011 - 02:05 PM, said:
What does "VAM" mean then?

I don't know yet.

######

Posted 14 December 2011, 05:39 PM

Knul, on 14 December 2011 - 04:18 PM, said:
Sometimes it is better to warn participants and visitors of this thread for the nonsense you tell like pyr = pier = worm !!

Your sense of humor has a masochistic touch, Knul.

Follow the link to the Middelnederlandsch Woordenboek (MNW), in which you can read that pyr = pier = worm (I didn't need a dictionary for that).

######

Posted 14 December 2011, 06:01 PM

Talking about "nonsense", knul...

Knul, on 13 December 2011 - 04:53 AM, said:
Met de komst van Friso (ca. 300 v. Chr.) is voor het eerst sprake van stalen kraanbogen (catapulten).

Translated:
"When Friso arrived (ca. 300 BC) steel catapults were introduced."

On what page did you have that hallucination?!

######

Posted 14 December 2011, 06:47 PM

The Puzzler, on 14 December 2011 - 06:23 PM, said:
I actually think the word for leech could have been a vampyr first, then that got transferred into Hungarian/Romanian undead corpses who later sucked blood and became human 'vampires'. The original meaning for the blood-letting leech was lost on human undead corpses.

exactly

######

Posted 14 December 2011, 06:49 PM

Oniomancer, on 14 December 2011 - 06:24 PM, said:
He just quoted the definition again above and it's right there in black and white, pierwurm.

It's common practice in Dutch and Flemmish to create a word out of two (almost) synonyms.

######

Posted 14 December 2011, 10:20 PM

Knul, on 14 December 2011 - 08:56 PM, said:
Otharus, don't tell such nonsense.

A few examples:
regen-bui
pis-zeik
advies-raad
dol-fijn
druk-pers
kei-steen
klets-praat
neder-laag
schemer-duister
sik-baard
straat-weg
taak-opdracht
trap-ladder
morgen-ochtend

######

Posted 15 December 2011, 08:14 AM

Knul, on 15 December 2011 - 01:22 AM, said:
regen-bui type of shower cfr. sneeuwbui, hagelbui, donderbui
pis-zeik ???? not in my vocabulary
advies-raad type of council cfr. ouderraad, leerlingenraad
dol-fijn ???? < delphin (loanword)druk-pers type of press cfr handperskei-steen type of stone cfr tufsteen, kiezelsteenklets-praat type of talk cfr scheepspraat, bakerpraatjes cfr kletskousneder-laag ???? laag < leggen not laag = lowschemer-duister ??? cfr schemerlamp, schemerlichtsik-baard type of beard cfr snorbaard, ringbaardstraat-weg type of street cfr. ventweg, bosweg, snelwegtaak-opdracht type of order cfr onderzoeksopdrachttrap-ladder type of ladder cfr trapzak, trapveldje, traplopermorgen-ochtend tomorrow morning

You must really get a kick out of wasting your time.

Sense of humor correlates highly with both creativity and intelligence.

(Conclusion of "The relationship of humor to intelligence, creativity, and intentionbal and incidental learning" (published in Journal of Experimental Education #40-4, 1972) by Hauck & Thomas

######

Posted 15 December 2011, 09:33 AM

The whole point of the discussion about "vampyr" is this:

OLB, according to Abe and Knul, would have to be a modern fabrication, because it has words in it that SEEM modern.

They basically say:

"It cannot be a 13th century copy, because word XYZ was first used in a text from the 15th century."

In my perception, this is an obvious thinking error, because:

1. words will usually be much older than the first time they were written down
2. most written texts that have ever existed are lost

They might as well say:

"It cannot be old, because I can not imagine it."

Not one single example of those "modern word" cases are proof that OLB has to be a hoax.

My point is just this:

That OLB would be a hoax is NOT PROVEN sufficiently, let alone that it was created by Halbertsma, Over de Linden, Stadermann, Haverschmidt, Verwijs and/or anyone else.

If this FACT would be accepted, I would be satisfied.

######

Posted 15 December 2011, 09:43 AM

Knul, on 15 December 2011 - 01:22 AM, said:
pis-zeik ???? not in my vocabulary

Try Google, piszeikerd!

"Geef mij maar een Hertog Jan! (dat piszeik van heineken mag je houden)"

"En dan zelfs nog over de piszeik kan gaan op aan behoorlijk volume dat is niet gezond..."

"Kheb geen zin om op een straal piszeik te liggen ..."

"het is je avatar, die piszeik van een amstel"

I think it's Rotterdam slang.

It nicely shows that dictionaries are never complete (did you really believe that?!).

And I can guarantee that there are also words in use that cannot be found on the world-wide-web (... yet).

######

Posted 15 December 2011, 10:39 AM

Abramelin, on 14 December 2011 - 07:12 PM, said:
The Frisians/Old Frisians use/d WERM.

But we don't know if they also used PYR/PIER.
OLB has many examples of synonyms (several words with the same meaning).

It's not impossible just because we have no examples of it in literature.

Westfrisians use both words, but "pier" usually for the huge ones found on the "wad", used for seafishing.

Dutch academic freedom (of speech) and objectivity!?

2011-12-05T01:51:00.000-08:00

SEMafoor article ~ translation and discussion

Posted by Alewyn Raubenheimer on 3 December 2011:

Herewith my translation of an article on the Oera Linda Book on the Dutch website Semafoor.net of the academic study group, SEM.

SEM is an acronym for “Studiekring Eerste Millennium” (“Study Circle First Millennium”) and has as its aim a renewed investigation into the first millennium history of the Low Countries between the Somme River in Northern France and the Elbe River in Northern Germany for the period 100 BC to 1200 AD.

http://www.semafoor.net/Oeralindaboek.htm

(It is noticeable, in my opinion, how dissenting views are ignored, denied, suppressed or ridiculed but, the reader can judge for him/herself. Please also note some additional "suspects" who could have created the OLB)

The Oera Linda Book - A game with almost no end

Thanks to the dissertation of Goffe Jensma, anno 2004, the Oera Linda Book has once again received much publicity. The thesis deserves positive appreciation. Not because it introduces new perspectives but because it is set out in a clear and understandable way to show what happened and could have happened. The spiritual testament of John Winkler that became known in 1916 already has, in fact, the story of what happened as far as it can be established. In this article we add three marginal notes; partly criticism and partly elaboration, namely: the mystification, the authors and the believers.

The mystification

The OLB is not a copy of an old manuscript, no falsification (because it has not been copied), but it is a mystification. Werner Fuld discussed the Oera Linda Book in his “Das Lexicon der Fälschungen” (The Lexicon of Hoaxes) (1999) and notes that this joke was recognized very early on. Even the Nazis recognized after a short time that the OLB did definitely not show a great Germanic past, but saw the book as a “ungermanische Fälschung” (a hoax).

When I delved into Ottema’s edition of the OLB a few decades ago, I soon realized that we had to do with a mystification here. That is no compliment to me.

“Everything in the OLB is suspect” wrote G. Molewijk in 1993. The so-called old language and the style, and especially the etymology of a number of words, were convincing enough for me. In 1874 Prof. Dr. A. Vitringa had already highlighted the historical heresy.

Some 15 years ago I received a typed text of Albert Delahaye sent by the Albert Delahaye Foundation wherein the Oera Linda Book was secretly used to support his views on the history of the Low Countries in the first millennium. It took many telephone calls to convince the then secretary H. Jochems that this edition of the work would be to the detriment of Delahaye, rather than to his advantage [sic].

Since then, the manuscript remained in suspension. I occasionally still expressed the following views: The Oera Linda Book is a mystification, but a mystification can still be an interesting document and even a historical source. He, who, however, tries to put forward a new perspective on the history of the first millennium and uses the Oera Linda Book as an authentic (13th century) source, is wrong from the outset. In the SEM it was more or less agreed some years ago not to do this in publications under the auspices of the SEM [sic]. Not everybody was satisfied with this unwritten rule. To them this was a form of self-censure. Jensma, in his dissertation, tended somewhat strongly in the direction of, amongst others, Albert Delahaye and Joël Vandemaele; I shall come back to this under the third heading.

The OLB in the translations of Ottema (1876) and Jensma (2005) can also be seen as a remarkable literary document. As a mystification of a so-called ancient document, the OLB is, however, not successful: it contains too many easily recognizable falsifications. These are too obvious. The metaphor of a struggle between two religious viewpoints, though, is a creation that fits in the literary history. Jensma, in his dissertation, primarily brings this metaphor to the fore, but it certainly is not an original discovery, because this view has been mentioned by numerous authors and has been known for many years.

The Author(s)

Joep Rozemeyer recently published an article in SEMafoor 4.1 (February 2004) about the OLB wherein he reveals that the historian Herrius Halbertsma made a statement about clergyman, linguist and antiquarian Joost Halbertsma. Eelco Verwijs would have made use of his library in creating the Oera Linda Book. Herrius Halbertsma thus pointed to Verwijs as the author. It is precisely from the remarkable relation between documents from this library and underlined passages in the books of Joost Hiddes Halbertsma that Verwijs is seen as the author. Those who want to meet (know more about) Joost Hiddes and his family can read a letter from him to his sister-in-law Baukje in the book “Het hart op de tong in negentig brieven (1571-1957)” [Heart on the tongue in ninety letters (1571-1957)] published by W.Gs. Hellinga.

According to Jensma, Francois Haverschmidt is the author intellectualis, Cornelis over de Linden is the part-time writer who actually wrote the text in “OLBees” and Eelco Verwijs the expert who initiated the mystification joke and advised on the creation of the codex.

Jensma wrote: “Paaltjens was not the only result of Haverschmidt’s enormous urge to mystification. His authorship is characterized by all kinds of techniques that result in indirectness and ambiguity and the expression of how he saw the world and himself – in his favourite metaphor – as show (pretence, false); as a historical contingency which referred to a more real, and reality behind history to a hidden entity, what he called ‘God’".

Some sort of literary proof, therefore. In the critique of the thesis in the NRC under the title “Magnificent misunderstanding”, the following is written: “The evidence against Haverschmidt is the weakest, Jensma acknowledges immediately”. Jensma, of course, means that the evidence for Haverschmidt’s authorship is poor. This honesty is to be appreciated. The discussion about this is not strange, because the Haverschmidt-solution is not conclusive.

The title of the OLB gives no direct indication about the author because this was thought out by Ottema. Initially the book was described as “The Book of Adela” or “The old Frisian Manuscript”. Cornelis over de Linden must not be underestimated as a possible author. There are undoubtedly [Sic] texts in the OLB from his hand and his spirit. Whenever Over de Linden quoted from passages in the OLB, it was always from the first part: “The Book of Adela’s Helpers”. There is no denial [Sic] that Haverschmidt could indeed be regarded as the real author.

Jensma says that the book originated from around 1860 but only surfaced in 1867 and he asks what happened in the interim. This hypothesis, that the OLB originated around 1860, firmly shuts the door on the thought that the origination history of the OLB is more complex.

It is noticeable that Jensma gave so little attention to the hypothesis that the original author (or shall I say one of the authors of the OLB texts) could have been Johannes Jans over de Linden, who was a book seller in Enkhuizen from 1790 to 1804 (therefore possibly quite literate) and a man with an artistic writing talent and the man who had the family crest made with a source and the word “Watch”.

This hypothesis came from Wigholt Vleer. He worked out his theory in 1952, published this in the Leeuwarder Courant (Newspaper) of 29 August 1959 and he came back to this in 1966 in a letter to the “RVU Educatieve Omroep” (Educational Journal?). This letter is published in this issue of SEMafoor.

Jensma does not take Vleer seriously, probably because he also published several books on “ley lines” [?], but it is known that the aforementioned Codex expert W. Hellinga came to the conclusion that the ink of the surviving OLB text dated from before 1820 and that he supported the hypothesis of Vleer.

“The case is solved: the book seller was the author” said Vleer.
"Hellinga did not see it (agree?) anymore, and stopped his research," alleged Jensma.

Hellinga was no Fries, otherwise he would have persisted. Somebody else, who supported Vleer’s hypothesis, was the ex-mayor of Graft-De Rijp and Weesp: Henk over de Linden. It is in any case in an article in the Leeuwarder Courant of 4 January 1992. In the same newspaper (22 June 1984) Kerst Huisman published an article in the Fries dialect [Sic] that Jensma must have read. The article starts with the information that the greatest humorist in the Netherlands’ historical world, Albert Delahaye is from Brabant Zundert. This view is essentially based on an unpublished and unauthorized [Sic] text of Delahaye which Huisman obtained in some or other way, undoubtedly (in) confidence. On this type of information, Jensma then embroider further.

The Believers

Jensma alleges the following (P.188): “Neither Molenaar nor Vleer dared, and it typified the Netherland situation, declare the book outright authentic”.

What a strange remark. Which Netherland situation? Is it about some none-Frisian situation? This Jensma alters even more, a kind of condescending and misinterpretation, particularly when it comes to people outside the traditional club of those involved. In my opinion, Vleer was already convinced of the mystification in 1952. He concentrated on the possible author. Vleer was no OLB-believer despite his “leylijnen”.

The most important believer was, of course, Jan Ottema who published the manuscript in 1876 and translated it. He made an international swell from a joke. You can see him at best as a believer against (his own) better judgment. His belief in the great pre-history was stronger than historical philology. He who reads Ottema’s views does not get the impression that we have to do with a fool here. In truth: educated and yet gullible. At some moment he had to realize that he was deceived and his hanging [suicide] can be connected to this [sic]. Understandably, things then became quite around the OLB. But, there are still believers. These believers are treated differently than Ottema by Jensma. Some comments about this.

I start with a quote (P.192): “The Oera Linda Book is still used here and there – but not in Friesland! – to give force to language nationalistic aspirations. Albert Delahaye contended that important episodes in Frisian history took place in Northern France. At the end of his life he applied this notion to the Oera Linda Book, and in Flanders he found supporters, for example, Joël Vandemaele, whose name was probably derived from “OLBees” MALJA = mad, foolish.”

In the meantime, a Flemish linguist has been busy for a number of years to translate the book into West Flemish to get the apostate (“stray”) Flemish to return to speaking West Flemish. Comparable to this, is the aspirations of Adriaan Snyman who translated the book into Afrikaans: “Die Oera Linda Boek: die verstommende verhaal van Atlantis waar Afrikaans 4000 jaar gelede sy ontstaan gehad het”. (“The Oera Linda Book: The amazing story of Atlantis where Afrikaans had its origins 4000 years ago”). Afrikaans is a dialect of “OLBees” [sic].

[My note: Snyman used the Oera Linda Book to advance his own political agenda. His references lack credibility (to put it mildly) and his book is so drenched in racism that no serious academic will give it a second glance]

Despite these different political flavours, we see every time how (post) modern religionism is not in contrast to the amusing (and) perplexing historical naivety which all these readers display, but how both these indeed strengthen each other. This associative raking together of historical and spiritual “nonsense” goes beyond belief. The interpretation of the Oera Linda Book fits into a much broader process of secularization of religion and, perhaps without it, is even inconceivable. "

Concerning Delahaye, Jensma had only one journalistic source in mind, namely the article of Kerst Huisman from which ex-mayor Henk over de Linden also came to view the hypothesis of Wigholt Vleer in a positive light, but wherein he also mentions that Albert Delahaye, at the end of his life, was a supporter of the OLB and even based his stories on it. It does not make sense to claim (only) at the end of your life, that your life’s work was based on the OLB. Nonsense.

The truth is that the work of Delahaye was absolutely not based on the OLB; that he indeed did see the OLB as a supporting work for a time, that he also produced a typed manuscript about it and that he decided himself not to publish it. The publishers of the posthumous editions of Delahaye’s work also did not do so (gave it up).

In 1985 the archivist, W.A. Fasel, wrote to Delahaye that Delahaye “is not only destroying his hard earned credibility, but is making himself ridiculous in perpetuity (undying)”[sic]. In this case we can assume that Delahaye reached the same conclusion.

In the case of Vandemaele, it is true that this author based two of his publications on the OLB. He clearly used the OLB as an authentic source in two of his books namely: “De Spiegel der Geschiedenis” (1996) (“The Mirror of History”) and “Controversiële Geschiedschrijving” (1999) (“Controversial History Writing”). To be more specific: Both books are drenched in the Oera Linda Book.

The question now arising here is: ‘what value can these books have if we regard the OLB as a mystification?’

Jensma gave a possible explanation for the name of Vandemaele (see quote). According to Ottema’s translation of the OLB, “Mal(l)en” in OLBees actually also means “slanderer”, and that is : to verbally do damage to someone. It is a pity that it is proven in this way. Equally cheap is the expression “apostate Flemish” as a metaphor for a language struggle. As an apostate Fries, Jensma, nevertheless, published his dissertation in Dutch.

Conclusion

In which way does the Oera Linda Book have historical significance? The OLB is, in itself, history from around 1800 to the present and there are more than 1000 fairly substantial publications dedicated to it. See Jensma’s bibliography. The OLB is, concerning the early history of the Frisians, an indirect source. It can be compared to a historical map. Historical maps are reconstructions: they relate the historical insights in a particular period. These insights, for example, may deal with the empire of Charlemagne. In anno 2000 somebody draws a map around (the year) 800. A historical map is, therefore, quite different from a geographical map.

In the same way the Oera Linda Book is a reconstruction; an indirect vision of a specific period; if one removes the ridiculousness and jokes. There is, for example, the legend of Friso, whether we agree with it or not. The OLB corresponds indeed to historical views, and they were in 1600 and 1800 different from now. In considering this, it can not be said that the OLB has nothing to do with a view on history, even if we find that this view is an imaginative premise. Plato’s view on Atlantis is the same. The OLB is not intended to write some alternative history. It is in a totally different class from the publications of Erich von Däniken, Thor Heyerdahl (and) Graham Hancock who are trying to reason that historical matters were different from what we think [sic]. Researchers like Immanuel Velikovsky and Zechariah Sitchin operated on an even better level.

On a more journalistic level, the beginning of the third millennium is a boom in new revelations and disclosures: it became a type of book genre; if we want to generalize and call it all pseudoscience, we may do so, but it is also a fact that the contentious authors and their views is a fad that will pass.

What was at first seen as pseudoscience and called as such, can nevertheless lead to changes in scientific approaches and views. Of this, however, there is no talk (possibility) of the Oera Linda Book [sic].

############

Posted by Alewyn Raubenheimer on 5 December 2011:

I posted the above two days ago. Perhaps our Dutch friends did not have the time to read it yet (Too long?) or they do not consider it as relevant or important. There is also, of course, the third possibility that the article falls outside their comfort zone. Let me then respond to my own post. I will start with Delahaye:

Albert Delahaye (1915 -1987) was a Dutch Historian who wrote a number of books and who “presented a set of hypotheses that were contrary to long-held ideas about the history of Nijmegen and that of the Low Countries in general.”

http://www.albertdelahaye.nl/index.php?english

In essence he put forward the argument that the accepted history of the Low Countries, and more specifically, the Netherlands is wrong. Large portions of the Netherlands was allegedly flooded and too wet (Dunkirk Transgressions) during the period 200 AD to 1000 AD for events to have taken place as presented by Dutch Historians. There are many people who disagree with him but he also has his supporters. In fact, they even have an “Albert Delahaye Foundation” and it would seem that SEM, the academic “Study Circle First Millennium”, has its origins in, amongst others, Delahaye’s work – so, he was no lightweight.

But, and here is the point, even his own loyal and doting supporters censored him. They still cannot accept that Delahaye actually considered the Oera Linda Book to be true and they are doing their utmost to refute this. They consider his work as extremely important (although not necessarily the part about the Dunkirk Transgressions, which seems to have been proven wrong), but (sigh) he should not have used the OLB. In fact, one of SEM’s unwritten rules is that nobody is allowed to quote from, or even mention, the Oera Linda Book. The case is closed and sealed. No reference to the OLB will be tolerated.

Talk about Dutch academic freedom (of speech) and objectivity!

Herewith some extracts from the article in my previous post:

1. “He, who, however, tries to put forward a new perspective on the history of the first millennium and uses the Oera Linda Book as an authentic (13th century) source, is wrong from the outset. In the SEM it was more or less agreed (sic) some years ago not to do this in publications under the auspices of the SEM.”

2. “Some 15 years ago I received a typed text of Albert Delahaye sent by the Albert Delahaye Foundation wherein the Oera Linda Book was secretly used to support his views on the history of the Low Countries in the first millennium. It took many telephone calls to convince the then secretary H. Jochems that this edition of the work would be to the detriment of Delahaye, rather than to his advantage.”

3. “These believers are treated differently than Ottema by Jensma. Some comments about this.

I start with a quote (P.192): “The Oera Linda Book is still used here and there – but not in Friesland! – to give force to language nationalistic aspirations. Albert Delahaye contended that important episodes in Frisian history took place in Northern France. At the end of his life he applied this notion to the Oera Linda Book,”

4. “Concerning Delahaye, Jensma had only one journalistic source in mind, namely the article of Kerst Huisman from which ex-mayor Henk over de Linden also came to view the hypothesis of Wigholt Vleer in a positive light, but wherein he also mentions that Albert Delahaye, at the end of his life, was a supporter (fan) of the OLB and even based his stories on it.

“The truth is that the work of Delahaye was absolutely not based on the OLB; that he indeed did see the OLB as a supporting work for a time, that he also produced a typed manuscript about it and that he decided himself not to publish it. The publishers of the posthumous editions of Delahaye’s work also did not do so (gave it up).

“In 1985 the archivist, W.A. Fasel, wrote to Delahaye that Delahaye ‘is not only destroying his hard earned credibility, but is making himself ridiculous in perpetuity (undying)’. In this case we can assume that Delahaye reached the same conclusion.”

Although many people do not agree with Delahaye, I highlight the above to show that the Dutch are not these broadminded people they would like us believe. Johan Winkler (for, what I believe, may have been very selfish motives) placed the final “Hoax” stamp on the OLB in the 19th century, and since then his views have been regarded as gospel. They will simply not entertain any dissenting views.

############

Posted by Alewyn Raubenheimer on 5 December 2011:

My first response to the above SEMafoor.net article dealt with Delahaye. Let us now look at Professor Jensma:

I think it is fairly safe to say that the first port of call for anyone who wants to know more about the Oera Linda Book, could well be Wikipedia. The Wikipedia article gives us a good summary of what is generally accepted about the OLB.
Consensus and Truth, however, are not synonyms.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oera_Linda_Book

“The most likely candidates for the author of the manuscript are Cornelis over de Linden or Eelco Verwijs. A popular third choice is the Protestant preacher François Haverschmidt (1835–1894), well known for writing poetry under the pseudonym Piet Paaltjens. Haverschmidt lived in Friesland and was an acquaintance of Verwijs.

Jensma (2004) argued that Haverschmidt was the main writer of the book, with the help of Over de Linden and Verwijs.”

From the above quote it is very clear that the illusion is created that the OLB has been proven to be a hoax and that it is almost certain that Haverschmidt was one of the most likely candidates. This message is unashamedly send into the world. The SEMafoor article, however, paints a very different picture:

“The evidence against Haverschmidt is the weakest, Jensma acknowledges immediately”. Jensma, of course, means that the evidence for Haverschmidt’s authorship is poor. This honesty is to be appreciated. The discussion about this is not strange, because the Haverschmidt-solution is not conclusive.

So, even Prof. Jensma, “Mr. Oera Linda Book”, is (apparently) not sure of his facts, but Wikipedia portrays his as a very credible theory. What does that tell us about the credibility of the Wikipedia article and the author of the article and, for that matter, anyone who advances the Haverschmidt connection? (In fact, Haverschmidt left a letter for us wherein he categorically denied any knowledge of, or involvement in the OLB).

Very early on in this forum, Abramelin said that I should have consulted with the “Experts” before I published my book. Well, I did try. Herewith a copy of an e-mail I received from Tresoar on 5th July 2009 (more than 2 years ago). At the time I was not impressed but, today I am very thankful for their reply. It just made me more determined to publish my findings.

“Dear Mr. Raubenheimer,

I am very sorry we have to disappoint you, but we are not interested. The ancient book you refer to is the Oera Linda Boek, which is generally and wide and large considerd to be a mystification, or better maybe, a hoax, set up by Francois HaverSchmidt, Eelco Verwijs and Cornelis over de Linden. Dr. Goffe Jensma wrote a dissertation on the entire affair in 2004, which has been received with great acclaim.

For more information, see for example www.oeralindaboek.nl and www.semafoor.net/Oeralindaboek.htm .

We will not enter in further discussions on the subject.

With kind regards,

Teake Oppewal
secretary KFG”

(How is that for closing the door in somebody’s face?)

From the above it is obvious that even Tresoar agrees with Prof. Jensma’s self-confessed flimsy theory and again, it comes down to credibility. I must also point out that Tresoar referred me to SEMafoor.net. in the first place. They can therefore not claim that they were not aware that Prof. Jensma was not all that comfortable with his own theory.

A further comment about Prof. Jensma: My initial impressions were that he came forward with completely new discoveries and novel insights into the OLB. Not so, according to SEMafoor.net:

“Thanks to the dissertation of Goffe Jensma, anno 2004, the Oera Linda Book has once again received much publicity. The thesis deserves positive appreciation. Not because it introduces new perspectives but because it is set out in a clear and understandable way to show what happened and could have happened. The spiritual testament of John Winkler that became known in 1916 already has, in fact, the story of what happened as far as it can be established.”

“The metaphor of a struggle between two religious viewpoints, though, is a creation that fits in the literary history. Jensma, in his dissertation, primarily brings this metaphor to the fore, but it certainly is not an original discovery, because this view has been mentioned by numerous authors and has been known for many years.”

It is, therefore, just a regurgitation of the same old story under a different guise.

A last quote from the SEMafoor.net about Prof. Jensma that I just cannot let pass:

“Jensma alleges the following (P.188): “Neither Molenaar nor Vleer dared, and it typified the Netherland situation, declare the book outright authentic”.

(Ouch! Does that hurt, or what?)

Bravo, Professor! Exactly what I have been saying all along.

Foreword Ottema 1876

2011-11-29T08:05:00.001-08:00

Posted 27 November 2011 by Alewyn Raubenheimer.

Herewith my next translation of a Dutch document for non-Dutch readers:

Foreword to the second edition of the Oera Linda Book.
By Dr. J.G. Ottema
September 1876

The first edition of the Oera Linda Book has been sold out and as a result, the opportunity has arisen to publish a second edition. I welcome this opportunity because it allows me to correct some mistakes that crept in previously or to improve on a less accurate translation.

Since its first appearance, (and) even before it was printed, the book has been criticised and rejected. Many tried to prevent it from being published or distributed.
Not only within, but also ouside the country people rallied against the book as though the well-being of the country and people depended on its authenticity.

What did the poor book do to deserve such hatred and bitterness? Is the text and language such gibberish and nonsense that it does not deserve to be read; well, people do not read it. If they do read it, they will also read what I wrote in the Introduction, the Historical Notes, the Royal Academy and the Oera Linda Book, and De Deventer Newspaper and the Oera Linda Book. Yet, this is exactly what they don’t do. People do not want to be informed about the nature, the scope or the scientific value of the book. It is much easier and enjoyable to blindly reject and shout the book down than doing a serious examination thereof. Everyone, whether they only saw the book superficiously or heard about it, consider themselves qualified to express a derogatory opinion about it. Their verdict is triumphantly published in all newspapers, cheered on by the ignorant public and the country has been saved.

Now Messrs F. Muller and P. Smidt of Gelder, Amsterdam examined the paper of the manuscript and alleged in the Nederlandsch Spectator no. 32 of 5th August 1876 that the paper was manufactured during this century and more specifically within the last 25 years in the factory (paper mill) of Messrs Tielens and Schrammen in Maastricht.

Mr Muller based his views on the following grounds:

1. Paper of the 13th century was entirely made of cotton, thick, uneven, woolly (and) with uneven and unclear lines. This paper is thin, even, hard, here and there transparent with regular clear waterlines.

Answer:
Cotton Paper from the 13th century had to be specifically prepared by “polishing” before one could write thereon. The Arabians and Goths (?) did this in the same way as the Egyptians did with their paper and the Romans glossed their finer parchment by rubbing it with the tusks of wild pigs, apri dente levigatur (Plinius). To get an even surface they would burnish the paper with agate. By rubbing the paper the fibres became denser, smoother and thinner than it was.

Even so, one cannot call the paper of the Manuscript thin. The Manuscript consists of 96 pages of a thickness comparable to the best Dutch paper types which does not belong to the thinner varieties.
I must point out that the samples of paper that Mr Muller saw earlier were unprepared and unpolished and therefore we must disagree.

2. Paper from earlier times until about 1800 was thinner in the middle than outside the waterlines. This paper (the Manuscript) is even, which shows that it is from this century.

Answer:
I note that the reference to earlier times does not go back further than the 14th century when linen paper instead of cotton paper was increasingly used as paper manufacturing spread throughout Europe. This observation, therefore, does not apply to cotton paper from the 13th century and cannot be used as an argument that the manuscript dates from the present.

The distinction with present paper is evident in the following four important points:

a. The width of the horizontal waterlines. Over a distance of 33 millimetres one gets 16 horizontal lines so that the width of each line is 2 mm. Machine paper shows in this distance 17 to 18 such lines with a width of not more than 1.85mm. Heavy English mail paper has 20 such lines, each with a width of 1.65mm

b. The absence of chlorine. An experiment done in my presence by the late Mr. A.P.H. Kuipers showed that the paper did not react in the slightest with silver and therefore clearly did not contain any chlorine. All paper manufactured during this century have been treated with chlorine which in the same experiment with silver leaves a white residue.

c. The absence of starch, amylum. The experiment with an iodine solution produces a pure and brilliant violet colour on machine paper but on the manuscript it had no effect and left the brown colour of the iodine unchanged, at least not more than with any other natural plant manufactured fibres because there is no amylum present in plant material. The (Manuscript’s) paper, therefore, was manufactured without the addition of starch and thus not in the present century.

d. In examining the waterlines there is another big difference between machine produced paper and the Manuscript. In the first case the lines are very clear but in the latter they are almost invisible to such an extent that Dr E. Verwijs in a letter d.d. Leiden 1 Dec 1870 (i.e. after having had the manuscript in his hands for 3 years) wrote to me: “Further, the paper appears very suspicious. It appears that the paper was hung in smoke. If one tears the paper it appears whiter at the tear. There is no watermark to be found and I have never seen paper from the Middle Ages without a watermark and I cannot even imagine that.”
Dr Verwijs therefore has not seen a watermark in all this time even when he was looking for it. It was not possible when he had machine produced paper (to compare with)

3. The paper is coloured yellow but not naturally so.

Answer:
If the paper was (artificially) coloured, i.e. painted, the colouring would have penetrated the paper, but this is not the case. At the tear one can clearly see that the paper is white on the inside. The dirty yellowish black colour of the paper is solely the result of time and aging over more than six centuries.
The fact that the paper was so well preserved over this time and not damaged by damp or mildew is prove of the meticulous care taken to protect this precious family heirloom.

4. The paper was cut off very smoothly and evenly; Paper from the 13th century cannot be cut without ravelling.

Answer:
This may be the case with unpolished paper but proves nothing with polished and therefore denser paper and in any event it depends on the sharpness of the knife or scissors used.

5. The paper cuts makes me think of machine produced paper, where the perpendicular waterlines (pontuseaux) could be produced but I am not aware whether the horizontal lines of paper frames could be present; if so, then I regard it as proper machine produced paper not older than 25 to 30 years. Earlier than this one could not make lines on machine produced paper.

Answer:
I have in front of me an authentic statement of Messrs E. van Berk, P. Uurbanus, A.J. Leijer and T. Mooy resident in Den Helder wherein they give the assurance that between 1848 and 1850 the existence of the manuscript later published under the title of Thet Oera Linda Bok was already known.

This statement was published in its entirety in the Heldesche newspaper of 12 March 1876.

With this Mr. Muller’s argument collapses about machine produced paper which, according to his claim of 25 or 30 years, i.e. before 1848, paper could not have been made with horizontal waterlines.

The paper of the manuscript therefore was not made in the 19th century. From the 14th to the 18th century no paper was made without a watermark but in the manuscript there is no trace of a watermark.

It was thus also not manufacture in the 14th or later centuries. The only conclusion therefore is that the paper came from the 13th century.

6. The paper was bound into a book by means of holes. It is too hard around the holes to be old; also the method of binding is too modern and totally different from other old books; in addition less holes and thicker strands of parchment were used than is evident here.

Answer:
If Mr. Muller saw the complete manuscript he would have noticed that the spine nowhere shows any traces of glue. That proves that it was not bound by any modern methods, nor by string, parchment or strips but rather by a very simple and primitive method of securing with needle and thread in a cover of parchment which one still find in the trade such as with calendars and so forth.
This anyone can do and this is what Hiddo Oera Linda also did because he could not entrust the Manuscript to any (professional) book binders who (by and large) performed their work in monasteries. He warned his son about monks and that they must never see the Manuscript.

7. The writing is too new for an old document. The ink lies on the paper and has not affected the paper in any way which should have happened with an old document.
The ink is too black. In olden times the ink was lighter and with time it turned brown.

Answer:
In response to this I present the views of Wattenbach, in “Schriffcwesen im Mittelalter” (Middle Ages):

“In old manuscripts, the ink is black or brownish, always of a good to excellent quality. After 1300 AD, however, the ink often appears grey or yellowish and is sometimes quite faded.”

(The rest of the quote appears to explain the ingredients of the ink in German which I could not decipher)

What the ingredients of the ink was with which the Manuscript was written, I do not know; but I accept the statement of Wattenbach as to the good quality of the ink until the 13th century as proof of the Manuscript’s origin in the 13th century.

For these reasons I cannot associate myself or accept the opinions of Messrs Muller and Van Gelder whose opinions in any event are not without prejudice. They essentially asked the question whether the Manuscript’s paper in any way conforms to paper from the present time. This is however the second part of the issue. The first and more important part is how the writing compares to other manuscripts older than the 13th century.

In connection with this, I have one more remark to add. The writing was lined, possibly with lead but the age of the document caused the lines to fade and almost to disappear so much so that I could at first only suspect that the pages were ruled until Jhr(?) Hooft van Iddekinge pointed it out to me. When he first saw the manuscript he said that the paper was ruled and showed me the traces. Once I knew what to look for I could see the lines on every page. For this reason I redrew the lines on the facsimile of page 45 to show how meticulous the lines were drawn and the letters written between them. In fact it made me realise how much time and effort were spent on the Manuscript. From this I copied the script page for page onto normal ruled paper which would have taken some 300 hours. That would only be the copying. In addition, a fraudster would have had to compile the book, in a unique language which had to be different from known Frisian dialects which all differ in spelling, syntax, etc. Against this one would have had to invent a dialect that would have been spoken between the Flie and the Schelde. Lastly one would have had to invent letters and an alphabet that would be more suitable to the Frisian language than anything known.

In connection with the letters I must point out a very distinctive feature:

The alphabet had no q and s. The prefixes qu, se, sch and de c at the beginning of words were still unknown which prove that this document dated from before Roman times. The c is not use any different than ch.

In the Frisian Legal Books (Friesche Rechtboeken), the language adopted the Latin style of writing.and independent signs before vowals were lost together with the prefixes gs, ng, and th. The influence of Latin, especially since Charlemagne, simplified the alphabet by reducing the number of letters but it also made the alphabet less suitable to the unique sounds in the Frisian language. In this regard the Frisian style and spelling were corrupted to an extend that is still felt by present day authors.

A fraudster would have had to consider the spelling and the alphabet of the Old Frisian Laws without creating suspicion.

This (the Manuscript) is not some trivial task that some joker carried out just to fool somebody. To accept this is quite irregular. That however is nothing.

The negative criticism of modern science does not accept any irregularities. If they have decided that the Oera Linda book is not authentic then it must be false, whatever it takes. Now they search everywhere to find the culprit; there is even talk of a price on the head of the offender and a reward for anyone who turns him in. Yet, all this is in vain for the simple reason that such a person does not exist and never has.

In the meantime the public is frightened by the question: “Do you still believe in the Oera Linda Book?” My answer is: “Yes, Gentlemen”.

I have now spent almost six years in studying the book over and over from inside and outside, in the context of the old Greek and Latin literature but nowhere could I find any grounds for doubt. That is why I still believe that the Oera Linda Book is authentic and that is why I present the second edition.

Leeuwarden, Sept. 1876.
Dr. J.G. Ottema