24 September 2013

Forum #32 English (7 mar. - 1 apr. 2013)

Selection of posts (as "gestur") at Unexplained Mysteries forum.

Posted 07 March 2013 - 07:23 PM [about OLB name - A.KEN =?= German city - Aachen]
View PostThe Puzzler, on 07 March 2013 - 04:32 PM, said:
ken or kenn in Frisian is kinship.

If the A is meaning water - the name could lean towards fellow Fryans/kin of the water (town/citadel).
There may be a clue on page 2 of the manuscript, line 13:

ÐACH ÐÆT ELLA IS JO SELVA A-KEN
Ottema - Dutch:
Doch dat alles is u zelven ook bekend
Sandbach - English:
This is well known to you
Wirth - German:
Doch dies hieße euch Bekanntes vermehren
Lien - Norwegian:
Det er dog alt (sammen) velkjent for dere

On page 5 of the MS, line 20, AKEN is also spelled with a dot between A and KEN (A-KEN).
KEN may be the same root-word as in KENING (king).

MS page 83, line 6-7
AS HJU TO FARA NA NЄDE KENÐ

Page 164, line 30-31
ÐЄRÐRVCH HÆVON WI ÐA YRA ÆND ÐA ʘÐERA KENNA LЄRÐ

Page 166, line 20-21
ÐA GRATESTE KENNAРEN ELE KV VRSLYNNA

Page 167, line 3-4
NʘMA ÐЄR IK ALLE NIT NOMA NI KEN

Etcetera.

### Posted 08 March 2013 - 01:03 PM

View PostApol, on 06 March 2013 - 04:10 AM, said:
One of the problems with our materialistic natural science, is, that it is near to 100% dependent on matter. Places don't exist before they are mentioned in some manuscript.
Often we read on the Wikipedia that a city was founded by this and that person in this and that year. But this doesn't necessarily mean that there didn't exist a place at the same site from before - and with even the same name if the sovereign didn't put his own to it. It's often the rulers who write history and who have the resources to do so, and their main reason for doing it, is often their urge to immortalize themselves so that they can surpass their predecessors in reputation.



### Posted 08 March 2013 - 02:55 PM

KUL / NUL

Page 51, line 26
ALLET ORE FOLK IS NUL IN.T SIFFER ÀND ÉLLIK

NUL =
Dutch "nul" =
Swedish "noll" =
English "nil, null"

Page 82, line 26
NILST MIN KUL NAVT SÁ SKILST MIN SWÉRD HÁ

KUL =
Dutch "kul, lul" =
Swedish "kuk" =
English "cock, dork"



### Posted 08 March 2013 - 03:20 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 08 March 2013 - 03:07 PM, said:
Then I do hope you also read my answer to Apol's post: that we are not merely dependent on written records, but also on archaeological finds.

Like he said: "One of the problems with our materialistic natural science, is, that it is near to 100% dependent on matter."

When things are found, that is wonderful.
But if no things were found, it does not mean they were never there. Some things disappear by natural cause over time, others get destroyed (or recycled) by humans.



### Posted 08 March 2013 - 11:50 PM

View PostApol, on 08 March 2013 - 06:01 PM, said:
Mârsâta means lake dwellers - forget about tribes. Wherever people are living on piles, you would just call them "lake dwellers". They could be in any place where there were lakes.
I agree.

I also think that ALDLAND / ATLAND might refer to any OLD (lost) LAND:
We just don't know if it always ment the same in OLB.
Some people may like to believe that, but we really don't know.
For one author it may have pointed to a specific lost island, for another it may have been somewhere else.
In both cases: old-land, land that is no more.

I agree with Alewyn Raubenheimer that an underwater search around the Faroe Islands will be worth the effort.



### Posted 09 March 2013 - 04:50 PM

View PostAtentutankh-pasheri, on 09 March 2013 - 03:28 PM, said:
I cannot add to this epic thread as it is not in my scope of expertise, though it is of interest to me, particularly the linguistic aspects. I have learnt more about this subject here than from any other form of media. Thanks to all posters here, some of whom must surely be professors in real life.



### Posted 10 March 2013 - 08:12 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 10 March 2013 - 01:17 AM, said:
I think Goffe Jensma was right after all: it is about religion. And I would like to add: racism.

I agree, but it is a sort of racism that wants to live in peace with the other races in the end.

Page 141, line 1: THA FORSTA THÉR WÉRHÉD MINNA ÀND RJUCHT
THAM SKILUN FON THA PRESTERA WIKA.
BLOD SKIL STRÁMA.
MEN THÉRUT SKILET FOLK NYE KRÀFTA GÁRA.
FINDA.S FOLK SKIL SINA FINDINGRIKHÉD TO MÉMA NITHA WENDA.
THÀT LYDA.S FOLK SINA KRÀFTA
ÀND WI VSA WISDOM.
THA SKILUN THA FALXA PRESTERA WÉI FÁGATH WERTHA FON JRTHA.

Sandbach (1876):
The princes who love the truth and justice 
shall separate themselves from the priests; 
blood shall flow, 
but from it the people will gather new strength. 
Finda's folk shall contribute their industry to the common good, 
Linda's folk their strength, 
and we our wisdom. 
Then the false priests shall be swept away from the earth.



They did not hate the other races, but yes they saw them as different.
In that sense, they discriminated.

What they hated were the false and foul priesthoods, and the princes that collaborated with them in using the people as their slaves.
Hence the importance of the word FRYA in OLB which means free.


### Posted 13 March 2013 - 10:39 PM


Another relevant fragment when considering the 'racism' in OLB:

Page 117-118 (Fréthorik Oera Linda) / Sandbach, page 161-163  
MEN THAT SWARTE FOLK
FON LYDA.BURCH AND ALIKMARUM
HÉDE ALÉN DÉN.
THAWIL THA SWARTA SUDWARD DRYVON
HÉDON HJA FÉLO MANGÉRNE HRET
AND NÉIDAM NIMMAN NE KÉM TO ASKA THAM
HILDON HJA THAM TO HJARA WIVA.
But the black people
at Lydasburgt and Alkmarum
had done the same;
and as they went south
they saved many girls,
and as no one came to claim them,
they took them for their wives.  
[...] TJAN JÉR LÉTTERE
KÉMON THA STJURA FON FOR.ANA AND FON LYDABURCH.
HJA WILDON THA SWARTA MANNISKA
MITH WIF AND BERN TO THET LAND UTDRIVA.
THÉRWR WILDON HJA THÉRE MODER.IS RÉD BIWINNA.  
Ten years after that
the seafarers came from Forana and Lydasburgt.
They wished to drive the black men,
with their wives and children, out of the country.
They wished to obtain the opinion of the mother upon the subject.  
MEN GOSA FRÉJE.
KANST ÉN AND OR TOBEK FORA NÉI HJRA LANDUM
THAN ACHSTE SPOD TO MAKJANDE.
OWERS NE SKILUN HJA HJARA MAGA NAVT WITHER NE FINDA.
NÉ SÉIDE HJA.
She asked them:
Can you send them all back to their country?
If so, then lose no time,
or they will find no relatives alive.
No, they said.  
THA SÉIDE GOSA.
HJA HAVON THIN SALT PROVAD AND THIN BRAD ÉTEN.
HJARA LIF AND LÉVA HAVON HJA VNDER JOW HOD STALAD.
I MOSTE JOW AJNE HIRTA BISÉKA.
MEN IK WIL THI EN RÉD JEVA.  
Gosa replied:
They have eaten your bread and salt;
they have placed themselves entirely under your protection.
You must consult your own hearts.
But I will give you one piece of advice.  
HALD HJAM ALOND JOW WALDICH BISTE
VMRA WITHER HONK TO FORA.
MEN HALD HJAM BI JOW BURGUM THÉR BUTA.
WAK OVIR HJARA SÉD
AND LÉR HJAM AS JEF HJA FRYAS.SVNA WÉRE.  
Keep them till you are able
to send them back,
but keep them outside your citadels.
Watch over their morals,
and educate them as if they were Frya's sons.
HJRA WIVA SEND HIR THA STERIKSTA.
AS RÉK SKIL HJARA BLOD VRFLJUCHTA.
TIL ER TO THA LESTA NAVT OWERS AS FRYA.S BLOD
IN HJARA AFTERKVMANDE SKIL BILIWA.
SA SEND HJA HIR BILÉWEN.  
Their women are the strongest here.
Their blood will disappear like smoke,
till at last nothing but Frya's blood
will remain in their descendants.
So they remained here.  
NW WINSTIK WEL
THAT MINA AFTERKVMANDA THÉRVP LETTA.
HO FÉR GOSA WÉRHÉD SPREK.  
Now, I should wish
that my descendants should observe
in how far Gosa spoke the truth.



### Posted 14 March 2013 - 10:17 AM

Some more about Fryan 'apartheid' and the desire to make friends with the other races (distant peoples):

OLB page 111: "Apollanja" / Sandbach, p. 153  
ALK MARUM IS EN MARE JEFTHA FLIT THÉR IN LÉID EN ÉLAND
VPPA THAT ÉLAND MOTON THA SWARTA AND BRUNA MANNISKA HWILA
ÉVIN AS TO LYDA.HIS.BURCH.  
Alkmarum is a lake or river in which there is an island.
On this island the black and brown people must remain,
the same as at Lydasburgt.  
THJU BURCH.FAM FON FOR.ANA SÉIDE MY.
THAT THA BURCH.HÉRA DÉISTIK TO RA GUNGON.
VMBRA TO LÉRANDE. HWAT AFTE FRYDOM SI.
AND HO THA MANNISKA AN THÉRE MINNE AGON TO LÉVANE
VMBE SÉJEN TO WINNANDE FON WR.ALDA.S.GAST.  
The Burgtmaagd of Forana told me
that the burgtheeren go every day
to teach them what real freedom is,
and how it behoves men to live [1]
in order to obtain the blessing of Wr-alda's spirit.  
WAS THÉR HWA THÉR HÉRA WILDE AND BIGRIPA MACHTE
SA WARTH ER HALDEN ALONT ER FVL.LÉRAD WÉRE.
THAT WRDE DÉN VMBE THA FÉRHÉMANDA FOLKA WIS TO MAKANE
AND VMBE VRAL ATHA TO WINNANDE.
If there was any one who was willing to listen and could comprehend,
he was kept there till he was fully taught.
That was done in order to instruct [2] the distant people,
and to make friends everywhere.

[1] TO LÉVANE AN THÉRE MINNE = to live lovingly
[2] WIS TO MAKANE = to make wise



Finally, the following articles from the primal laws ("Tex Fryas"), show the peaceful and cooperative nature of Fryan 'racism':

OLB page 13 / Sandbach p. 21-23  
8. NE GRIP NA THAT FOLK FON LYDA NER FON FINDA AN. 
WR.ALDA SKOLDE HELPA HJAM. 
SA THAT.AT WELD THAT FON JO UT.GONG 
VPPA JVWA AJNA HAVEDA SKOLDE WITHER KVMA.  
Meddle not [1] with the people of Lyda, nor of Finda, 
because Wr-alda would help them, 
and any injury that you inflicted on them 
would recoil upon your own heads.
9. SAHWERSA THAT MACHTE BÉRA 
THAT HJA FON JUWE RÉD JEFTA AWET OWERS WILDE 
ALSA AGHAT J TO HELPANE HJAM. 
MEN KVMATH HJA TO RAWANDE 
FAL THAN VPPA THAM NITHER LIK BLIXENANDE FJVR.  
If it should happen 
that they come to you for advice or assistance, 
then it behoves you to help them; 
but if they should rob you, 
then fall upon them with fire and sword [2].

[1] NE GRIP AN = don't invade / start war
[2] LIK BLIXENANDE FJVR = like lightning fire


### Posted 14 March 2013 - 12:02 PM


View Postgestur, on 14 March 2013 - 10:29 AM, said:
MEN KVMATH HJA TO RAWANDE

verb:
roven - dutch
röva - swedish
røve - norwegian
rob - english
rauben - german
rāvia - old-frisian
rēafian - old-english
rober - old-french

noun:
raaf - dutch
ravn - danish, norwegian
ravnur - faroese
hrafn - icelandic
rabe - german
raven - english
raawen - north-frisian
hræfn - old-english
hrāban - old-german

According to Hettema's Old-frisian dictionary of 1832, "RAF" could both mean "roof" (rob) as "raaf" (raven).
Posted Image
"The raven standard was the flag of the Danish Vikings." (www.etymonline.com)
(yes I know this is a magpie and not a raven)

from: www.etymonline.com

rave (v.) 
late 14c., "to show signs of madness or delirium," from Old French raver, variant of resver "to dream, wander, rave," of unknown origin (see reverie). The identical (in form) verb meaning "to wander, stray, rove" first appeared c.1300 in Scottish and northern dialect, and is probably from an unrelated [???] Scandinavian word (cf. Icelandic rafa).

rove (v.) 
"to wander with no fixed destination," 1530s, possibly a Midlands dialectal variant of northern English and Scottish rave "to wander, stray," from Middle English raven, probably from Old Norse rafa "to wander, rove."



### Posted 14 March 2013 - 12:30 PM

View PostVan Gorp, on 03 November 2012 - 12:05 PM, said:
Platonic solids are a bit too platonic for me to get a grip on at the moment.

But concerning Fire-Four and the 4 phUr-Elements, I wondered about the fact that the fourth (and highest element) is the ever extending fire.

Vuur-Phur: brandschoon, pure (see burning ritual for cleansing), zuiver, sauber, super pure.

Along with the swastika (symbol of the sun, and the sun burns -> see burning wheel) we can see in that symbol 4 times 4. The 4 pure elements.
If we see that purusha is the unlimited conscience of the burning flame within, it is clear for me that vier-vuur-phuur (four-fire-pure) are related.

Pyro-maan, vuure-man.

On top, if we take pride-> zijn we fier -> we glimmen -> and vieren (celebrating) was done around the fire

Something interesting (IMO) about the FIRE - FOUR - PURE connection:
Posted Image
πυρ (pur) - greek = fire (dutch: vuur)
puur - dutch = pure

καθαρός (katharos) - greek = pure
quattuor - latin = four (dutch: vier)
quatre - french = four
... etcetera

(ketter - dutch = heretic; they used to be burned alive)



### Posted 14 March 2013 - 07:02 PM

Ok so here's my coin in the bag for reconstruction of topography.

I agree with Apol (think he said it) that we should look at what must have been the most strategic sites.
Conquerors (or new rulers) often rename a place (New Amsterdam became New York, Batavia became Jakarta, etc).

Köln/ Cologne / Keulen/ Colonia was a Roman Colony and it is a very strategic site at the river Rhine.

According to Wiki, "Cologne was Oppidum Ubiorum, founded in 38 BC by the Ubii, a Cisrhenian Germanic tribe", but it may be much older and it may have had a very different name in earlier times.

One main area in Cologne is named "Lindenthal".

About the coat of arms (wiki):
The three crowns symbolize the Magi (Three Wise Men) whose bones are said to be kept in a golden sarcophagus in Cologne Cathedral.
The eleven tears are a reminder of Cologne's patron, Saint Ursula, a Britannic princess, and her legendary 11,000 virgin companions who were supposedly martyred by Attila the Hun at Cologne for their Christian faith in 383.
(Myths like this may very well have a much older origin.)



### Posted 14 March 2013 - 10:41 PM


View PostAbramelin, on 14 March 2013 - 09:47 PM, said:
you should visit that Dutch etymology site, and enter 'raaf'
Yes, I saw it.
On http://gtb.inl.nl not only "Opperrabbijn" (chief Rabbi), but also "Geestelijke, predikant. Deze toepassing zal wel mede gegrond zijn op de zwarte ambtskleeding van de geestelijken en dus ontstaan zijn door associatie van raaf (III) met raaf (I)."
=>> preacher, probably in part because black clothes associate with raven.



### Posted 15 March 2013 - 08:00 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 15 March 2013 - 12:02 AM, said:
No, it's Twiskland in the OLB.
In Scandinavia it's still called Tyskland

I know that Germany is called Tyskland in Scandinavia.

Posted ImageOtharus pointed that out in august 2011.
fryskednis.blogspot.com/twiskland-deutschland
In Finnish it is called Saksa, in English, Italian, Greek and Russia varieties of Germania, in French and Iberian varieties of Allemania. But in German and Dutch it is Deutschland/ Duitsland, which is derived from THJUD = folk, people AND duiden/ deuten (explain, interpret).
See (mostly in Dutch): fryskednis.blogspot.com/neder-holland


Quote
OLB fragmenten

[002/20] Adela's Rede

THÉR HÉRDON HJA MITH LUSTUM NÉI THA VRDWÁLSKA FINNA SÁGUM.
THRVCHDAM HJA THJVD ÀND NÉI WÉRON.
SÁ SEND HJA VNT.FRYAST VNTHONKES THENE WALD HJARAR ALDRUM

[O+S p.7]
Daar hoorden zij met welgevallen [:lusten] naar de losbandige [:overdwaalse] sagen der Finnen,
omdat die slecht [? duidelijk, verklarend] en nieuw waren.
Zoo zijn zij ontfriesd ondanks de macht hunner ouders.
{N.B. indien THJVD hier slecht betekent - zoals in Nyfrysk -, hoort middelste regel bij laatste, niet bij eerste regel!}
There they learned with pleasure the loose ways of the Finns, 
because they were bad [illustrative, explainable?] and new; 
and thus they became denationalised in spite of the efforts of their parents.
{note: if THJVD has a negative meaning, like in newfrisian, the 2nd line belongs to the third}

[013/18] Tex Frya's

THÀN SKILUN J HJA HJRA DVMHÉD BITJVTHA
[O+S p.23]
dan zult gij haar hare dwaasheid beduiden
explain to her her folly

[039/20] Minno's Skrifta

THA FORSTA ÀND PRESTERA KÉMON BÁRJA THAT WI HJARA TJVTH OVER HÉRICH MAKAD HÉDE 
ÀND THÀT FOLK KÉM TO VS VMBE HUL ÀND SKUL
[O+S p.57]
De vorsten en priesteren kwamen en gaven voor dat wij hunne onderdanen oproerig gemaakt hadden,
en het volk kwam tot ons om heul en schut te vragen.
The priests and the princes declared that we had excited their subjects to rebellion, 
and the people appealed to us for aid and protection.

[097/10] Burchfám's Love

THA FÉRHÉMANDA HÉRA KÉMON HJARA THJUD ASKJA
[O+S p.135]
De uitheemsche heeren kwamen hunne lieden opeischen;
The foreign lords came to look after their people,

[101/27] Andere deel Formleer

THISSA SÉKA MOTON KLÁR ÀND BÁR MÁKAD WRDA BY ALLE WISA. 
SÁ HÀT HJAT ANOTHERA BITHJUTA ÀND BIWISA MÜGE
[O+S p.141]
Deze zaken moeten klaar en openbaar gemaakt worden op alle wijzen,
zoodat zij het aan anderen mogen beduiden en bewijzen.
These things must be made clear and manifest in every way, 
so that they can be made clear and comprehensible to all.

[104/32] Taal en antwoord

BIFVNDEN HÀVANDE HO SÉR THET DVATH VMB.ALLÉNA TO TOBBANDE 
ALSA BITHJUDE HIU HIRA BERN HO AND HWÉRVMBE HJU ALSA HÉDE DÉN
[O+S p.145]
Bevonden hebbende hoe zeer het doet, om alleen te tobben,
zoo beduidde zij hare kinderen, hoe en waarom zij zoo gedaan had.
Having found how hard it is to toil alone, 
she showed her children how and why she had done it.

[113/12] Apollánja's Fárt

WI NE SKILUN NÉN BIHOF LONGER NAVT NÀVE AN THÀT WLA THJUD
[O+S p.155]
wij zullen geen behoefte langer hebben aan dat vuile volk.
we shall have no occasion to deal with those nasty people.

BTW, we don't know if OLB's TWISKLAND exactly overlaps the nowaday (or 19th century) 'Tyskland'.

It will partly have been around there, but it may have stretched further eastwards.

Our demonstratives are derived from THJUD.


THJUS AGATH WRALDA.S GAST

Deze komt Wralda's geest toe.
That is for Wralda’s ghost only.
(Tex fryas, OLB page 12)

this, that --- english

deze, dit, die, dat --- dutch
dies, das --- german =>> duidwoorden, Deutwörter (demonstratives)



### Posted 15 March 2013 - 07:49 PM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 15 March 2013 - 02:50 PM, said:
I agree Tysk is from thjud.

I did not say that.

In fact, I believe Tysk is derived from TWISK, not from THJUD.



View PostThe Puzzler, on 15 March 2013 - 02:50 PM, said:
it starts to sound like Swiss...
twi-s-k 
zwischen

Swiss indeed sounds like "zwischen" (German for between, betwixt, TWISK), but...

it is from Switserland (German: Schweiz =>> sounds like "-tz" --- Dutch: Zwitserland).
In OLB, "SWETSAR" is the word for "neighbours".

### Posted 16 March 2013 - 07:59 AM


View PostAbramelin, on 10 March 2013 - 01:17 AM, said:
I think Goffe Jensma was right after all: it is about religion.
And I would like to add: racism.

Earlier I said I agree, but let me be more precise:
There are indeed themes in OLB dealing with the different races and problems mixing them. IMO, the best summary of what the book is about, is the gradual decline of an ancient civilization or culture.



### Apol Posted 16 March 2013 - 07:24 AM


I have become more and more convinced that the people of Bvda were the Batavians - though not at the time when they are mentioned in the OLB. The Batavians were an offshoot of the Catti, who resided in the area where the rivers Fulda and Eder are at their closest to river Lahn. Kattaburch in today's Kassel was their burch, which must have been founded after ca. 550 BC. It is first mentioned in the manuscript around 300 BC in connection with Friso, who sent his brother-in-law, Hetto, there. The burgh is not mentioned in the list of the grietmen.
As a consequence of conflicts within the Catti around 50 BC, a fraction of them were driven away. That fraction made its way south on the Rhine, where it established itself in the delta and became the people whom the Romans called Batavians. It is unclear whether the newcomers formed a ruling class and subjugated the existing inhabitants, or if the existing inhabitants were expelled. This was in a time without a folkmother any longer with power to avoid conflicts like these.
It was natural of the invading Catti branch to borrow its name from the burgh of Bvda and name itself something like 'Budavians'. The reason why they established themselves at the burgh of Bvda and the surrounding areas, was that they didn't want to lose the control they had had of the Rhine and its tributaries when they were a part of the Catti. Place-names like Büderich (‘Buda Realm’), Bodenheim (‘Buda Home’), Bateige (‘Buda Possession’) etc. along the river bear witness of the 'Budavians' having had a need of marking their area through settlements and place-names towards their enemies, the remaining Catti; and several of their places were situated at the confluences of tributaries.
At first I wondered why not one single of these place-names are to be found along River Lahn, which runs east from Koblenz. There are also few along River Mosel, which runs west from the same point - after all, these two traffic arteries are the two most important ones linked with the Rhine; they meet and cross the Rhine at the so-called 'Deutsches Eck' in Koblenz. However, when I now understand the context in toto, it is all obvious to me: Lahn was the road to where the original Catti lived, who now were deprived of their control of the Rhine. However, they had probably managed to retain a certain control of Mosel, so that they could continue their trade to well into France.

### Posted 16 March 2013 - 04:00 PM


View PostApol, on 16 March 2013 - 10:03 AM, said:
It is right that the book is about a declining civilization or culture, but it was doomed to decline because it missed something, which the invaders provided - first and foremost the Christian doctrines of "turning of the other cheek", which at last stopped the internal wars, and of humanitarianism.

More specific: the decline of matriarchal civilisation.
I'm not sure if they missed something before the arrival of the Magy.
It is clear that there were at times conflicts between the various female leaders.
As for Christian doctrines, let's have a look at some bible quotes below.
This OLB fragment is significant IMO.

Manuscript page 153 (What Friso did further):
INNA BOSM THES FOLKIS ANTSTONDON NW TWA PARTIJA.
THA ALDA AND ARMA WILDON WITHER ÉNE MODER HA.
MEN THAT JONGK.FOLK THAT FVL STRIDLUST WÉRE.
WILDE.NE TAT JEFHA KANING HA.
THA ÉROSTA HÉTO HJARA SELVA MODER HIS SVNA 
AND THA OTHERA HÉTON HJARA SELVA TAT.HIS SVNA.
MEN THA MODER.HIS SVNA NE WRDE NAVT NI MELD.

My translation: In the folkbosom, two parties now arose.
The old and poor wanted to have a mother again,
but the youngfolk that was militant,
wanted to have a dad or king.
The first named themselves mother-his sons,
and the other named themselves dad-his suns.
But the mother's suns were ignored (or: stood no chance).

Sandbach p. 207: Among the people there now existed two parties.
The old and the poor wished to have the mother again,
but the young and the warlike
wished for a father and a king.
The first called themselves mother's sons, 
the others father's sons,
but the mother's sons did not count for much;

======= I have often wondered why the Judeochristian bible contains such nasty anti-women propaganda.
Personally at this point, I believe that the Abrahamic religions were created, partly to destroy the pre-judean matriarchal tradition.
In any case, it looks like there was a problem with women. Did they have to be tamed?
I am still researching and learning.

Some bible-quotes about the position of women, to illustrate this.

Old Testament Genesis 3:16 To the woman he said, 
“I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing; 
in pain you shall bring forth children. 
Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.”

New Testament (letters from Apostle Paul) 1 Timothy 2:8 I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling; 
likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, 
not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, but with what is proper for women who profess godliness—with good works. 
Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. 
I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. 
For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. 
Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.

Ephesians 5:22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 
For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. 
Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.

1 Corinthians 11 But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God. 
Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head, but every wife who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, since it is the same as if her head were shaven. 
For if a wife will not cover her head, then she should cut her hair short. 
But since it is disgraceful for a wife to cut off her hair or shave her head, let her cover her head. 
For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God, but woman is the glory of man
For man was not made from woman, but woman from man
Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.



### Posted 20 March 2013 - 10:55 AM

View PostKnul, on 19 March 2013 - 09:14 PM, said:
the OLB text is a word-for-word translation from a 19th c. Dutch or Frisian text to some sort of Old Frisian using a simplified grammar.


View PostAbramelin, on 19 March 2013 - 09:23 PM, said:
the word order is 100 % similar to our modern Dutch or to 19th century Dutch.

That is not true. Much of the word order and vocabulary is similar, but not all.
It is almost as easy for Germans (who have almost the same syntax as us), and as Apol has already shown, even for Scandinavians.

The people that have conquered and christened our lands have had hundreds of years to destroy all texts (except one?) that show we had an ancient culture. What is left are some crappy texts written by Latin-schooled monks who tried to write the language that they only knew in spoken form (and probably it may often not even have been their mother tongue).

Also, you have been brainwashed for centuries with the idea that all of our culture came from the Romans and Greeks.

As you saw on the archaeology maps, the area has been inhabited for thousands of years in relative continuity. The people may have temporarily moved a bit east and south, to move back when possible, or when driven back by invaders. There is no reason why the language of these people had to change dramatically.



### Posted 20 March 2013 - 01:13 PM

View PostSSilhouette, on 19 March 2013 - 07:25 AM, said:
The name in german "auf deustch" for Wednesday ist "Wodenstag".  I believe that was named after Wodin?  "Woden's day".

What happened in German with the name of this weekday offers a good example of how the priesthood has tried to change our language and wipe out older traditions.

From the German wiki:
Der Name [Mittwoch] ist seit dem 10. Jahrhundert [...] belegt bzw. in Gebrauch [...] Mit ihm vermied die christliche Missionierung im deutschen Sprachraum den Anklang an vorchristliche Gottheiten, die in der fremdsprachigen Terminologie erhalten blieben

Translated:
The name [Mittwoch = midweek] is in use since the 10th century. With this name, the christian missionaries avoided memory of pre-christian deities in the German speaking lands, that remained in foreign terminology.

Various names for wednesday and what they are named after.

Woden
wednesday - english
wodnesdæg = woden-his-dæg - old-english
woensdag - dutch
woenesdag - westfrisian
woonsdag - nethersaxon
wunsdag - netherdutch (-german)
woansdei - frisian

Odin
Óðinsdagr - old-norsk
onsdag - danish, swedish, norwegian

Oth (the fire or sun)
ოთხშაბათი (othshabati) - georgian

Mercurius
dies mercurii - latin
mercoledì - italian
mercredi - french
miércoles - spanish
dydd mercher - welsh
dimecres - catalan
miercuri - rumanian

Budha
budhavãra - indian (Budh is also planet mercury)

(later:)
If is possible to exterminate a word (in one language only in this case), then it is easily thinkable how books, treasures, buildings etc. got lost, with the same motive. The most important buildings will just have been replaced with a new, bigger and stronger one on the same spot.

This just to illustrate that my idea of "brainwashing" by the church is not merely a "conspiracy theory".

### Posted 20 March 2013 - 01:19 PM
View PostAbramelin, on 20 March 2013 - 11:43 AM, said:
The Christians may have destroyed much of our culture and so on, but they were not capable to destroy all of the Aztec and Mayan cultures, though they have done their best at it.

They started much later, in a time where there was already more awareness of the value of ancient cultures. Besides, they could no longer incorporate what they found into their cult, as they had done with much of the ancient European culture.

Quote
A culture that was supposed to be all over Europe only left ONE trace: a manuscript in a village in the Netherlands.

It left many more traces, but people who don't look for it don't see it, simply because it doesn't fit into their belief system. They ignore it.

And/or - as you yourself do - they say that those traces were sources on which the OLB is based (for example the Frisian and Greek 'mythology').

### Posted 20 March 2013 - 01:34 PM
The verb "to be" is in Dutch "zijn" and in German "sein".

Exactly the same meaning and pronounced almost the same.
In fact, within Germany and the Netherlands/ Flanders there are many varieties of pronouncing.

So why is the spelling different?

From reading alone, one would think that the languages are more different, than that they actually are.
Spelling (of the national language) is a political tool to divide peoples and create fake national identities.
Same for modern Frisian (Frysk): spelling is chosen as to differ as much as possible from Dutch.

### Posted 20 March 2013 - 02:28 PM
View PostAbramelin, on 20 March 2013 - 02:09 PM, said:
Nonsense: archeologists here dig up much that's thousands of years older than anything OLB. They don't hide anything.

It is a very well known and understood phenomenon from the philosophy of science, that finds that do not fit into the existing belief-system are refused or ignored, even by scientists.

### Posted 20 March 2013 - 03:40 PM
View Postgestur, on 20 March 2013 - 01:34 PM, said:
The verb "to be" is in Dutch "zijn" and in German "sein".

This word may well be related to East-Asian, "Zen", although of course, the mainstream explanation is different.

### Posted 21 March 2013 - 10:58 AM
View PostApol, on 21 March 2013 - 05:18 AM, said:
Moreover, the inscriptions on the burgh-walls would have been the very first that would fall prey to the conquerors' ravage - they would have been annihilated in the most thorough ways.

Exactly.
And adding to what was said in the last three posts (Apol, NO-ID-EA and Puzzler):
Most archaeological finds are labelled "Germanic", "Keltic", "(Anglo-) Saxon" (since '45 the label 'Germanic' is less popular), while some might as well have been labelled "Frisian".

History, including archaeology are for a part politically relevant as they help create or sustain a national identity, even more so in these times of secularization.

I can't copy the photo's, but in another thread there are finds in the the Römisch-Germanische Museum in Köln of a big 6-spoked wheel (remains) and this was said:
Quote
Als toelichting in de tentoonstellingsgids stond hierover nog dat de Franken in de 4e en 5e eeuw 'heidense' symbolen, zoals dit wiel, systematisch vernietigden. Dit zal zeker ook zijn gebeurd met eventueel overgeleverde teksten.

=> In the catalogue of the exhibition it was explained that the Franks in the 4th and 5th century systematically destroyed all 'pagan'symbols, like this wheel. This will surely also have happened with texts that might have been saved until then.

In this museum was also a bowl (dated: first ten years of CE) with the name Horus scratched on it with a 'Fryan' H (although it may also have been meant as an L: Lorus?, because that is sometimes written as a mirrored Greek Lambda), but the photo is not very clear. I hope someone can make a better picture of it some day.

The Greek alphabet has no H, and the Latin one is the same as our capital H.

Typical is that in the explanation this name was not mentioned, while that of another bowl (in normal letters) in the same showcase was.

My point is, that once archaeologists go look for JOL script, they may find more of it.

Many letters that diverge from the classic ancient alphabets as we know them can be found here:http://otharus.tumblr.com/

### Posted 21 March 2013 - 08:22 PM
View PostKnul, on 21 March 2013 - 05:28 PM, said:
Dorestad (city) never existed.

Dorestad in the 9th century was the most strategic Frisian trading centre:
Posted Image

View PostKnul, on 21 March 2013 - 08:21 PM, said:


Blaeu is a 17th century reconstruction of the Roman times (ca. year zero), it has "Batovodorum", which appears to have been (or was thought to be) the old name.

Jansonius does show its newer name: "Wyc Duyrstede" (south-east of Utregt).

Ortelius is a 16th century phantasy map (reconstruction), it shows a settlement without a name in the area of Dorestad.

Tirion is also a reconstruction and it shows "Batovodorum Vicus - nu Wyk"; which was the new name ('Wyk Durestad').

A modern reconstruction (2012) made with the newest available knowledge (source: Friese Graafschappen tussen Zwin en Wezer ~ een overzicht van de grafelijkheid in middeleeuws Frisia (ca. 700-1200), by Dirk Jan Henstra):

Posted Image

### Apol Posted 28 March 2013 - 04:37 PM
View PostThe Puzzler, on 28 March 2013 - 02:24 PM, said:
It looks to me like it's meant to be a W - they have written the first part of the W, a V - then dipped their ink pen, then drawn the 2nd V of the letter W shape, which because they stopped and dipped their ink pen,  (you can see by the darker 2nd V) is not quite joined in the middle.
Posted Image  Posted Image  Posted Image  Posted Image

Posted Image  Posted Image  Posted Image  Posted Image
The name is written in different ways:
Vvralda, Vvr.alda, Wr.alda, Wralda, Wr alda, Wr.aldi, Wr.ald 
8 times with VV, 93 times with a W

### Posted 31 March 2013 - 12:47 PM
View PostApol, on 28 March 2013 - 12:31 PM, said:
I'm not using any website, but Goffe Jensma's book Het Oera Linda-boek, where there are photos of every page in the original manuscript.

That book is indeed of good use for the page-photos and line numbering.

But the translation is sometimes horrible and the introduction contains much misinformation, for example already in the first paragraph of the foreword (p.7):
"Nu 134 jaar geleden, in 1872, kwam dr. J.G. Ottema met een eerste editie, die in 1876 werd herdrukt, in 1972 gereprint en die ten grondslag ligt aan alle buitenlandse vertalingen. [...] In de buitenlandse vertalingen werd niet alleen Ottema's transcriptie maar ook diens vertaling tot uitgangspunt genomen."

Translated (my underlining):
"Now 134 years ago, in 1872, dr. Ottema punlished a first edition, that was reprinted in 1876 and 1972, and was the basis of all foreign translations. [...] In the foreign translations, not only Ottema's transcription but also his translation were used as a starting point."

The German translation (1933) by Dr. Wirth was NOT based on Ottema's translation.

Example: creation myth ("FORMA SKÉDNISE")
Ottema, page 13
"Haat trad tot haar binnen. En nu baarden zij elk twaalf zonen en twaalf dochteren, elke juultijd een paar."
=> hate came in them
Wirth, page 16
"Od (Gottes Odem) trat zu ihnen ein und nun gebar jede zwölf Söhne und zwölf Töchter, eine jegliche Julzeit zween."
=> od (God's breath) came in them

### Posted 31 March 2013 - 05:42 PM
View PostApol, on 31 March 2013 - 03:32 PM, said:
Jensma is as exact as one can expect.

The mistake I mentioned is not a minor one.
Wirth's German translation of 1933 caused more turmoil than the English one by Sandbach of 1876.
Jensma already published about the OLB in 1992 and wrote his doctors-thesis about it (published 2004).
To start his 2006 book with a major untruth in the first paragraph of the foreword is very sloppy (to put it mildly), and just one example because there are many more.

I don't think Jensma is a conspirator, but I do suspect him of having a (religious) agenda.
He started his 1992 article with two bible quotes, as was mentioned before in this thread.

### Posted 31 March 2013 - 05:53 PM
View PostAbramelin, on 31 March 2013 - 03:36 PM, said:
And it was Reichenbach who first used the term "OD" in the meaning as used in the OLB

Martin Luther used the term "Gottes Odem" in his translation (16th century) of the creation myth from the Christian bible.
Same context: God gives life to Adam.

I don't know where I read it but in Oldsaxon or Oldnorse the word would also mean something like spirit or something related to life-force or fertility.
Reichenbach chose his term well, but he was not the first to make that association.

The "oôt" in my signatury (in a proverb that I read in a westfrisian dictionary) appearantly is a virtually indestructable weed.
Would make sense if "od" would mean life-force, would it not?

(added to this on 24 september:)
In an older Westfrisian dictionary, I recently found the same proverb and there it said that "oôt" is "avena fatua", known in english as "common wild oat"...

Posted Image
(German: Flug- oder Wind-Hafer)

### Posted 31 March 2013 - 06:19 PM
How many of us would recognise a "Linda" tree (German and Dutch: Linde) if we saw one?

Have a good look at the shape of the leave:

Posted Image

What we could call "heart-shaped", no?

Here is a human heart:

Posted Image

What looks more like our universal symbol of love?
Posted Image
In several very old german and dutch love-songs, the Linde tree plays a role (couples kissing or making love under a Linde tree).

### Posted 31 March 2013 - 06:25 PM
View PostAbramelin, on 31 March 2013 - 06:17 PM, said:
I think he knew what many would think: that it is obvious the paragraph was based on the New Testament, or based on some 19th century ideas about who Jesus really was.

To me that is not obvious at all.

I have seen a convincing BBC documentary about a theory that Jesus of Nazareth had had (part of) his education with Budhist monks in India.
His original name may have been "Isa", while in India he may have received a new/other name "Jesus", which would have been one of the other names of Budha.
This still happens nowadays, that spiritual teachers have various names and that initiates receive a new name from their teacher.

### Posted 31 March 2013 - 07:26 PM
View PostApol, on 31 March 2013 - 06:23 PM, said:
the Old Norse óðr means 'strong desire'.

"Strong desire" is a perfect description of "life force".
I can see how this degenerated from a general meaning into something more specific like "rage" (in some oldnorse texts) and in Latin "hate" (odium), from which Ottema got his translation.

### Posted 31 March 2013 - 07:35 PM
It is interesting that breath (Dutch/ German: adem/ atem) is related to spirit.

to breathe - english

ademen - NL
atmen - german

spirare - latin
respirer - french
respirar - spanish, portuguese
respirare - italian

Getting inspiration to me is the same as receiving 'life force' or 'universal energy' (some call it love).

### Posted 01 April 2013 - 06:38 PM
View Postgestur, on 31 March 2013 - 05:53 PM, said:
Martin Luther used the term "Gottes Odem" in his translation (16th century) of the creation myth from the Christian bible.
Same context: God gives life to Adam.

Beautiful fragment with Odem as God's breath or life-force, from the libretto of Haydn's masterpiece Die Schöpfung(1798):

GABRIEL, URIEL
Zu dir, O Herr, blickt alles auf;
um Speise fleht dich alles an.
Du öffnet deine Hand,
gesättigt werden sie.

RAPHAEL
Du wendest ab dein Angesicht,
da bebet alles und erstarrt.
Du nimmst den Odem weg;
in Staub zerfallen sie.

GABRIEL, URIEL, RAPHAEL
Den Odem hauchst du wieder aus,
und neues Leben sprosst hervor.
Verjüngt ist die Gestalt
der Erd’ an Reiz und Kraft.

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