26 September 2012

PAPEKAPPE is not just "monk"...

breaking news

A discovery made today by Van Gorp from the UM forum.

PAPEKAPPE (letter Liko 'Oera Linda', 803 CE) can also mean "papenvriendje"

see http://gtb.inl.nl/iW...lemmodern=kepp

"Papenvriendje" (disparaging term for a monk, something like "papist's pal or buddy"?) totally makes sense.

I always thought it referred to something they wear on their heads.

Or... much better stil:

A catamite of the pope (schandknaap van de paus).


Van Gorp, this is a major breakthrough.

~ ~ ~

(added Sept. 29: )

Still, two interpretations are possible.

1. PAPEKAPPE = hat, cap or cape of papist, bishop or pope.
In our language, it is common to refer to someone that one does not respect, by reducing him to an external characteristic, for example "dat kapsel" (that hairdo), or "dat gekke hoedje" (that silly hat).

2. PAPEKAPPE = -KEPPE = friend, sweetheart or even catamite of the pope.
In this case it could be a strong invective to any representative of the (Roman Catholic) Church, including monks.
The word would perfectly voice the feelings Liko must have had for what he will have seen as dangerous traitors; collaborators with the enemy, destroyers of his culture.

By simply translating PAPEKAPPE as "monk", something important gets lost, IMO; the fact that LIKO used a nickname, that probably expressed some very negative feelings. 


To provide some context to the time when Liko 'Oera Linda' wrote his preliminary letter (unnumbered second page of OLB) in 803 CE, here are some names of the rulers:

pope of Rome
(795 - 816) Leo III, crowned Charlemagne in 800 as Roman emperor.

Carolingian emperor
(800 - 814) Charlemagne, subdued the Frisians after a 3 year "bloody war" (wiki), between 783 and 785. He was also King of the Franks (768-814) and of the Lombards (774-814).

bishop of Utrecht
(ca. 790 - 806) Hamacarus, only his name is known.

Liko wrote that he had "been at their court" (IK HAV BY THAM ET HOVE WÉST).
Where would that have been?
Rome, Noyon, Utrecht? 

And these were the relevant rulers in 1256 CE, when Hidde 'Oera Linda' wrote his OLB-copy and letter to his son Okke:

pope of Rome
(1254 - 1261) Alexander IV; time of conspiracies and instability.

Roman (German) emperor
No official emperor between 1254 and 1312. Willem II of Holland was crowned as king.

bishop of Utrecht
(1249 - 1267) Hendrik I van Vianden, he supported Willem II of Holland, but the latter exploited the conflicts between Hendrik and the nobility of Utrecht at his own advantage.

count of Holland
(1234 - 1256) Willem II of Holland, was supposed to be crowned as Roman emperor, but died miserably (fell through ice) at Hoogwoud, when he tried to subdue the Westfrisians.
His son and successor Floris V was only 2 years old in 1256, so the nobility will practically have ruled until he was 12 years old (1266). Floris made his first strike against the Westfrisians in 1272 (which he lost).


Posted 30 September 2012 - 06:57 AM
View PostThe Puzzler, on 30 September 2012 - 03:21 AM, said:
The word for kappa you are not seeing is COVER/CLOAK=CAPE that is your kappe.

Kap/ cap (related to Latin caput = head ~ supposedly the origin of the word cape) was how I understood it before (as did the other translators, I suppose).

View PostOtharus, on 26 September 2012 - 10:46 PM, said:
I always thought it referred to something they wear on their heads.

But in the meaning of good friend or lover it makes a much more sense to me, as it would (imo) more adequately express the feelings Liko must have had for them. Mind you... I was raised with exactly those sentiments towards Catholics. They are deeply rooted in Westfrisian culture.

I would not say though that your interpretation cannot be right.

Posted 30 September 2012 - 12:45 PM
View PostThe Puzzler, on 30 September 2012 - 10:08 AM, said:
Don't forget Frisian is closer to English unless you want to think Old Dutch is in the OLB.

The language of the OLB is close to what is called Oldfrisian, but it has enough elements that are closer to other languages. Some words and structures are actually closer to Dutch than to Frisian. (And that will have been one of the reasons why many Frisians forcefully rejected it.) Also note there are still some unknown words in OLB.

If we assume that the OLB was written in the 19th century, than the author(s) probably knew KAPPE from Richthofen's Oldfrisian dictionary.

But if it is authentic, the other interpretation is also valid. It could even have been meant to be ambiguous!

Let me add that it is not how I think about Catholics and I never claimed that it was the only right interpretation.

But it is a new possible interpretation which would fit perfectly in the context.

(I also know that my grandparents would have shatterlaughed about it.)

~ ~ ~

Last week I attended a very interesting lecture about the origin of present day Dutch language (both from Netherlands and Belgium).

Unification of language only started in the late 16th century, mostly influenced by a new Protestant Bible translation (Statenbijbel, first published in 1637) and the rise of printing press. Kiliaan (1599) made the first dictionary, made with that goal, to unify the countless and strongly varying dialects. To create a standard.

We are used to the idea of a national language, but there was no standard Old-Dutch nor Old-Frisian.

Even in present day Friesland I have noticed that there are significant differences between various dialects and the same goes for Flanders. People from different regions hardly understand each other when they speak fast.

Also, important to know, many of them dialects do not have a written tradition, they merely exist orally!


Anyway my point is that in translating there are often several possibilities and in this case it is a matter of taste, which one is chosen. Not a matter of right or wrong.


Posted 30 September 2012 - 01:00 PM
View PostThe Puzzler, on 30 September 2012 - 10:08 AM, said:
Frisian is closer to English

English is closer to Frisian than to Dutch, but Dutch is closer to Frisian than English.

something like this:

English - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Frisian - - - - Dutch

Posted 30 September 2012 - 01:38 PM
View PostThe Puzzler, on 30 September 2012 - 01:18 PM, said:
No Dutch words should be in the OLB, if it's authentic, only words that went into Dutch from Frisian.

You don't get it.

If OLB language is authentic, then some words will have survived in Dutch only, others in Frisian or Flemish, or Swedish, German, English, etcetera. Some words will have survived in several languages, others in none at all.


Posted 30 September 2012 - 01:47 PM
View PostThe Puzzler, on 30 September 2012 - 01:18 PM, said:
Like stof for instance - no way will that be a Dutch variant meaning dust - it will be what became English stuff, which would have been an original Frisian word.

I don't agree. Why are you so dogmatic? Language is not mathematics.

substance <--- STOF ---> dust
. . . . . . . . |
. . . . . . . . |
. . . . . . . . \/
. . . . . . . fabric

"Stof" in Dutch can have all 3 meanings!
It may have been like that for many ages.
We just don't know.

There are many examples of words that evolved into various different meanings.

"Verstaan" in NL-Dutch means "to hear" (can you hear me? no speak louder please).
In German "verstehen" means "to understand".
In Belgian-Dutch it can mean both.

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