07 January 2012

Forum # 18 (dec. 15, 2011 - jan. 3, 2012)

Posted 15 December 2011 - 03:00 PM
Knul, on 13 December 2011 - 04:53 AM, said:
Met de komst van Friso (ca. 300 v. Chr.) is voor het eerst sprake van stalen kraanbogen (catapulten).


[198/12]
HWÉR AN MÀN ÉNE STÉLEN KRÁN.BOGE MOCHT FÀSTIGJA
[O+S p.239]
waaraan men eene stalen kraanboog kon bevestigen
upon which steel crossbows could be fixed (should be singular)

(Jensma (2006) has the same translation as Ottema.)
But how do we know that "STÉL" had the same meaning as our "steel"?

### Posted 15 December 2011 - 03:25 PM
Abramelin, on 12 December 2011 - 10:57 AM, said:
And wherever you look, "vampires" in the meaning of "blood-sucking undead people" appears to be a rather recent invention.

From the context in the OLB it's clear that the word is about something "blood-sucking", but not that it is about "undead people".

That the word originally will have meant bloodsucking worm (pyr), just makes more sense than that it suddenly was invented by someone who put some random letters together.

Whether it was made out of VAM + PYR or out of VAMP + YR, when we don't even know what the root-words mean, we cannot know how old the word really is.

### Posted 15 December 2011 - 03:33 PM
Abramelin, on 15 December 2011 - 01:40 PM, said:
The word "VAMPYRA" (or similar spellings) doesn't show up with the meaning of 'bloodsucking undead/ghoul' anywhere before the 18th century.

Once more, the OLB doesn't suggest "undead/ghoul", only bloodsucking.

Quote
Let me try to give a more modern example.
Nowadays you hear someone say (and also here in the Netherlands) "Cool !!" when they like something very much or when they think something is really great and so on.
The original meaning of the word "cool" was something like "somewhat cold", or "not warm".


Your example doesn't work, because we don't know a more original meaning of Vampire, other than a bloodsucking creature (bat or undead).

"Voor het Slavische woord, dat voor het eerst is geattesteerd in een Oudrussische tekst uit de 11e eeuw, zijn diverse intern-Slavische etymologieën voorgesteld, maar velen nemen ontlening aan uit een Turkse taal." http://www.etymologi...efwoord/vampier

=> "For the Slavic word, that was first attested in an Oldrussian text from the 11th century, various intern-Slavic etymologies were suggested, but many assume adoption from a Turkish language."

### Posted 15 December 2011 - 03:36 PM
Abramelin, on 15 December 2011 - 03:31 PM, said:
Maybe Bram Stoker read the OLB?

Possible. His "Dracula" was published 25 years after Sandbach's translation.

### Posted 15 December 2011 - 03:44 PM
Abramelin, on 15 December 2011 - 02:10 PM, said:

Also note Tanfana/ Tamfana.
A relation with OLB's "T.ANFANG" (the beginning; p.45) seems obvious.

### Posted 15 December 2011 - 03:49 PM
Abramelin, on 15 December 2011 - 03:06 PM, said:
I don't think you will have to worry about "steel":
http://www.etymologi...refwoord/staal1
It's a typical (Old) Germanic word. But a nice find anyway.


Thanks.

### Posted 15 December 2011 - 03:53 PM
Abramelin, on 15 December 2011 - 03:45 PM, said:
The word itself was older, but meant something not specifically connected with bloodsucking.

I agree that it was older, but why do you think it was not connected with bloodsucking?


Abramelin, on 15 December 2011 - 04:02 PM, said:
Because whatever we all found about the origin of the word had nothing to do with bloodsucking.

I must have missed that. Can you repeat or link to that?

### Posted 15 December 2011 - 04:33 PM
Abramelin, on 15 December 2011 - 04:16 PM, said:
"fon t-anfang" would in Dutch be "van de aanvang", or as we could also write it: "van d'aanvang".
I don't think this has anything to do with some goddess.


Why do you add "fon"? It's just "TANFANG"; the beginning.
That Tanfana would be a goddess is only a 19th century assumption.

### Posted 15 December 2011 - 04:46 PM
Abramelin, on 15 December 2011 - 04:32 PM, said:
Anyway, the oldest form (from Old Church Slavonic) is OPIRI.

That is your interpretation, but the text does not say so.
It also doesn't say or suggest that "the word had nothing to do with bloodsucking", as you claimed.

### Posted 15 December 2011 - 04:57 PM
Abramelin, on 15 December 2011 - 04:42 PM, said:
Looks like a goddess to me, well, read the Wiki page or read Tacitus: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanfana
And I added FON because I wanted to show the two words T-ANFANG in their context.


That's what Grimm thought too, but it's not more than an assumption.
The context is:
[045/09]
HWAT HIR BOPPA STÀT SEND THI TÉKNA FON THÀT JOL.
THÀT IS THÀT FORMA SINNE BILD WR.ALDA.S.
AK FON T.ANFANG JEFTHA T.BIJIN WÉRUT TID KÉM


Perfect theme for a temple.

### Posted 15 December 2011 - 05:06 PM
Abramelin, on 15 December 2011 - 04:50 PM, said:
In whatever source I read the etymology, it most always ends with 'witch' as the original meaning.

I only see the one you quoted: 'said by Slavic linguist Franc Miklošič to be ultimtely from Kazan Tatar ubyr "witch,"';
it's a theory by one single linguist, without any source for that quote.

Quote
I said: "Anyway, the oldest form (from Old Church Slavonic) is OPIRI."
1734, from Fr. vampire or Ger. Vampir (1732, in an account of Hungarian vampires), from Hung. vampir, from O.C.S. opiri (cf. Serb. vampir, Bulg. vapir, Ukrainian uper), said by Slavic linguist Franc Miklošič to be ultimtely from Kazan Tatar ubyr "witch,"


Didn't you notice that to the Hung. and O.C.S. version no year is added?
An example of how you read what you want to read.

### Posted 15 December 2011 - 05:09 PM
Abramelin, on 15 December 2011 - 04:42 PM, said:
It's not TANFANG, it's T_ANFANG (3d line below the wheels).
Two words.


Yes, just like "World" (WR.ALDA).

### Posted 15 December 2011 - 05:22 PM
Abramelin, on 15 December 2011 - 05:16 PM, said:
No way. The WR in WR.ALDA is not an article like the T in T_ANFANG: "The Beginning (De Aanvang/ D'AANVANG)

You said "two words". I said "yes, just like...". But what is your point?

### Posted 15 December 2011 - 05:30 PM
On page 45 you see that they placed 6 letters around the JOL;

W R A L D A
T A N F A Ng (NG was one letter)
T B I J I N

Apparently and understandably, "THE beginning" (T.ANFANG or Tanfang or Tanfana?) was something sacred, something mysterious.
Like I said, a perfect theme for a temple.
Anyway, I'm not the first to make this link. I think Jensma wrote about it too.

### Posted 16 December 2011 - 12:44 PM
Abramelin, on 10 December 2011 - 12:22 AM, said:
Come on, show a screenshot of that page. You do know how to do it.

No, I dont't, thought I need special software for that.Can you explain me how to make screenshots (or download software for that)?

### Posted 16 December 2011 - 01:15 PM
Abramelin, on 16 December 2011 - 12:53 PM, said:
The first thing to do is of course open a webpage, and then press [PrintScreen] or whatever it is called on your keyboard.

Great! Thanks a lot.

### Posted 16 December 2011 - 03:01 PM
Otharus, on 10 December 2011 - 12:07 AM, said:
In this book, on page 2-3 of "Van Vroonen" (or 273-274 of 755 in the PDF), a fragment about "Attelantida" (Atlantis in a spelling that does not yet exist on the web, as far I could find with Google).

"Sodanig een History en Lant-beschryvers belydenisse behoort te wesen, (als gesegt is) want wy hier inne niet na en 'volgen de luyden (hoewel van groote geleertheyd) die werk gesocht hebben, omme te beschryven een Utopia, als den verstandigen Thomas Mores, eertyts Cancelier van Engeland, ofte van 't Eylant Attelantida, daar den Jesuit en nauw doorsnuffelende Josephus Acosta van verhaalt, het welke eenige hondert mylen groot, ontrent de barbarische kusten gelegen hadde, en in de grooten Oceaan, die ongrondelyk diep is, verdronken soude zyn, 't gene met reden men Nergens Land noemen mocht: ofte en volgen ook niet den voortreffeyken werelt wysen Plato, om te verhalen van een Stad, die noyt te vinden heeft geweest, hoewel datter een sulken Stad in des Aardryks ront wel behoorde, ofte hadde mogen zyn. Want, het gene hier verhandelt sal worden, is van een Stad ofte Vestinge, die haar wesen heeft gehad in der waarheyd, hare handelinge en doen in erusthaftigheyd, haar voorspoet in Scheepvaart en Koophandel, haar bloey en 't vallen in den verderffelyken Oorlog."


As requested:

### Posted 16 December 2011 - 06:01 PM
Brainwave

- A word for king in OLB is FORST (Dutch: vorst, German: Fürst), it means "most in front" or "first" (Dutch: voorst)
- The Dutch word "vooraanstaand" means "prominent", literally "standing-in-front".
- One of the most important cities of Westfriesland (until it was destroyed ca. 1300 AD) was Vroonen or Vronen.
- In OLB, a prominent burg in Westflyland was FORANA. All translaters assume that Vronen was ment.
- Verwijs suggested that Vronen is derived from FRAN (sacred, pious; Dutch: vroom).
- I think it makes sense that Franeker and France (and Verona?) are derived from the same word.

=> Did FORANA change into FRANA?

Was "vroom" originally "vooraan"?

### Posted 16 December 2011 - 06:30 PM
Abramelin, on 16 December 2011 - 06:15 PM, said:
However, Vronen, according the oldest known reference from 1083, was called "Vranla".

Vranla = Vroon-loo; Vroner bos (forest of Vronen)

### Posted 17 December 2011 - 06:58 PM
According to "Frisia" by Hamconius (1609), the original Frisian coat of arms had water-lily leaves ("pompebladen") in it.
Why 'pomp'-leaves?

Wiki [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Friesland] has no answer:

The Frisian flag, is the official flag of the Dutch province of Friesland. It consists of four blue and three white diagonal stripes; in the white stripes are a total of seven red pompeblêden, stylised heart-shaped leaves of yellow water-lily.

The seven red pompeblêden are a reference to the Frisian "sea countries" in the Middle Ages: independent regions along the coast from Alkmaar to the Weser who were allied against the Vikings. There were never precisely seven distinct rulers, but the number seven probably has the connotation "many."

Since the 11th century a coat of arms with pompeblêdden is known. Evidence for this lies within verses of the Gudrunlied. Round 1200 Scandinavian coats of arms reveal many traces of water-lilies and hearts, found often in combination with images of lions.

15th century books on heraldry show that two armorial bearings were derived from the early ones: a coat of arms showing lions and seven pompeblêdden transformed into little blocks, the other being the arms with the seven now known lilies on stripes.


~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
The following fragment of Oera Linda Book could explain why 'pomp'-leaves had a very important meaning to the old Frisians:

[OLB p.064/11] ca. 1630 BC; KÀLTA's speech:

SVNUM ÀND TOGHATRUM FRYA.S.
I WÉT WEL THÀT WI INNA LERSTE TÍD FÚL LEK ÀND BREK LÉDEN HÀVE.
THRVCHDAM THA STJURAR NAVT LÔNGER KVME VMB.VS SKRIF.FILT TO VRSELLA. [...]
ANDA ÔRA SYDE THÉRE SKELDA HWÉR HJA TOMET THA FÉRT FON ALLE SÉA HÀVE
THÉR MÁKATH HJA HJVD.DÉGON SKRIF.FILT FON POMPA.BLÉDAR
THÉRMITH SPARATH HJA LINNENT UT ÀND KÀNATH HJA VS WEL MISTE.
NÉIDAM THÀT SKRIF.FILT MÁKJA. NV ALTI VS GRÁTESTE BIDRIV WÉST.IS.
SÁ HETH THJU MODER WILT THAT MÀN.ET VS LÉRA SKOLDE.


Improved English translation (as Sandbach had too many errors):
Sons and daughters of Frya,
you know well that we in last times have suffered much loss and misery
because the sailors no longer come to buy our writing-felt [...]
On the other side of the Scheldt, where they almost have the trade of all seas,
there they nowadays make writing-felt of water-lily leaves.
With that they save linen and no longer need us (lit.: can they miss us).
Because the making of writing-felt has always been our greatest trade,
the mother willed that one should teach us


So first "SKRIF-FILT" was used, made of "LINNENT", later paper made of "POMPA-BLÉDAR".
In the OLB, a word for 'paper' is used only once, as "PAMPÍER" [letter Hidde (1256 AD) line 11]:

VMBE HJA NAVT TO VRLYSA HÀB IK RA VP WRLANDISK PAMPÍER VVRSKRÉVEN.
In order not to lose them, I copied them on foreign paper. (Sandbach)

The word "paper" in modern European languages never has a "M" before the second "P" (or "B"):

paber - Estonian
páipéar - Irish
papel - Spanish, Portuguese
paper - English
папир - Servian
папера - White-Russian
paperi - Finnish
papier - Dutch, Frisian, German, French, Polish, Slovakian
papir - Danish, Norwegian, Kroatian, Ukrainian (папір)
papír - Hungarian, Czech
papirja - Slovenian
papīrs - Latvian
papper - Swedish
pappír - Icelandic
papur - Welsch
popierius - Lithuanian

But in various Frisian texts, from before and after publication of the OLB, varieties with an "M" were used:

pompier: 1807, 1821, 1834, 1864, 1867, 1874, 1880, 1885, 1889, 1895, 1896 (2x), 1901, 1902, 1913, 1920, 1923, 1935, 1946
pampier: 1816, 1824, 1882
pumpier: 1855, 1871

1807 Nim dizze rijgels oon, nim oon dit lyts pompier. E. NAUTA, rymbrief, (1)
1816 De hudde Wijn dij hie wat proesd / En onder de Pampieren poesd. P.G. DEKETH, pijtter, strofenr. 46
1821 (ca.) Yn schier pompier berolle. E. HALB, freun
1824 Ho earm binne wij oon marcken, omme for-schaette, heegjende in leegjende luwden ... op it pampier mielje to kinnen. R. POSTHUMUS, prieuwcke, XIII
1834 Doe grou pompier: dat spielde er eak al gou wer ôaf. E. HALB, lapekoer III, 402
1855 Set naut dalik ol huet dy în 't sin sciet uppa 't pumpier. H. SYTSTRA, Iduna, 140
1864 De diakens ... founen okkersneins f 4000 oan Russisk pompier în 'e budel. W. DYKSTRA, nysbode, nr. 3, 3
1867 Tsjinwirdich barre de boeren al gau ris pompierkes for hiar bûter, mar destiids faek goudjild. W. DYKSTRA, wever, 20
1871 Ik (jow) jou alles în biwar end jy jowe my up libben end dead der en lîts pumpierke fen în 't bywêsen fen jou wîf end soan. G. COLMJON, Sw., 54
1874 Hy (wier) mei falske pompieren ... wer în 't lând komd. P. BLEEKSMA, F.m.n., 159
1880 Om it noazblieden, as dat al to stjelpich giet, to stuitsjen, moat me grou pompier kôgje ef in string keulsce side om 'e hals dwaen. H.G. v.d. VEEN, wrald, 48
1882 Pieter (is) oan de doar ... in greate rol pampier ûnder de earm. P.J. TROELSTRA, wiersizzery, (6)
1885 Yn forskate hûzen hinget in great pompier efter in glês mei in swarte list er om hinne ... op dat pompier stiet ... in forklearringe. M.P. TROELSTRA, Sw., 59
1889 Bûrman naem syn boekje op, der der in pompierke út krige hie, in Russiske coupon. J.D. BAARDA, forsin, 47
1895 De Eastenrykse pompieren, dy mochten wy wol fen 'e hân dwaen en keapje er wer Spaenske foar. T.W. SYTSTRA, F.m.n., 152
1896 It rint yn 'e pompieren. W. DYKSTRA, volksl. II, 388
1896 Dy faem is op skien pompier - 'heeft geen vrijer aan de hand'. W. DYKSTRA, volksl. II, 311
1901 For in tachtich goune silverjild (hie) (er) tsjin pompier wiksele. T.G. v.d. MEULEN, Sw., 94
1902 In oaren-ien, oars ek wol yn steat om moai dúdlik syn tinzen op 't pompier to bringen, skreau djarp for doarp. J. f.'e GAESTMAR, F.m.n., 187
1913 Ik hab jimme gâns to skriuwen, mar ik hab soks net wollen mei pompier en inket. E.B. FOLKERTSMA, Y.ú.e.t., 72
1920 De bank hoegde dos net safolle munt yn kas to hawwen as der pompier yn omrin wier. P.T. ZWART, Heit., 36
1923 Der wirdt yn dizze wrâld nearne sa folle liichd as op 't pompier. J.P. WIERSMA, arbeiders-jongfolk, 7
1935 Hjir lizze noch wol in pear pompierkes op 't taffeltsje. S. BOUMA, wolken, 6
1946 Men (sit) efter it swarte pompier by in lyts ljochtsje mei it daei om to kliemen. W. KOK, koarstekoeke, 80

Source: http://gtb.inl.nl/iWDB/search?actie=article&wdb=WFT&id=74583.re.d1e4142723&lemma=pampier
(Note that E. Halbertsma (1821, 1834) spelled: "pompier")

If the OLB story is right it would explain two things:
1) why the Frisian flag is made up of 'pomp'-leaves
2) why the most common old-Frisian spelling of paper was "pompier"

If the OLB was created in the 19th century, its author(s) must have been an etymology fanatic. The etymology of "pompier" seems obvious, yet nothing is said about it in the OLB, and the only time the word for paper is used, it is spelled as "pampíer", while "pompier" would be more pure.

I think this could be an important clue.

### Posted 17 December 2011 - 09:51 PM
Knul, on 17 December 2011 - 08:39 PM, said:
In the OLB and in Klaas Kolyn the Frisian flag is brown.

A brown shield is mentioned once in the OLB [p.086/21], but it doesn't say what the meaning was.

### Posted 17 December 2011 - 10:02 PM
Abramelin, on 17 December 2011 - 08:07 PM, said:
Otharus, you are suggesting that, because the Fryans/Frisians used these water-lily leaves to make paper, they mixed or confused two words: paper & pomp(eblêden)?

No, I think the original word was POMPIER, named after the leaves.

And I think radical; the papyrus plant might be named after the use they made of it; to make writing-'pompier', a word that by then had been bastardised into "papier".

The modern Frisian dictionary has "papier", because they assumed what Knul has just posted, that the "m" was a bastardisation.

I don't think so.
We still have to find out why the leaves were so important to become the symbol of the Frisian identity, if not the ancient paper production that will have given them a great trading position (as the Kàlta-Minerva tale explains).

Quote
Btw: do you have any idea what these "waak-sterren" or OLB "wak-stara" (watchstars) really are??

I think they just believed that the spirit of someone great would go to 'heaven', to live on a 'star' (in Freya's case Venus) and watch over us (at night), something like a guardian angel. All the stars in the sky would represent the spirits of various ancestors.

### Posted 17 December 2011 - 10:25 PM
Otharus, on 17 December 2011 - 06:58 PM, said:
...THÀT WI INNA LERSTE TÍD FÚL LEK ÀND BREK LÉDEN HÀVE
...that we in last times have suffered much loss and misery


A more literal translation would be: "leak and break".

### Posted 17 December 2011 - 10:38 PM
Abramelin, on 17 December 2011 - 10:19 PM, said:
The -M- was a bastardisation?
What about the -L- ?


Yes, both letters may have been lost from the original "plomp".

PLOMP => POMP => PAMP => PAP

Quote
But then what was the 'watchstar' of Finda?
And have you any idea why Lyda didn't ascend to some watchstar?


While Frya may really have been the 'Mother' (queen) before the 'big flood', the characters Finda and Lyda may have been made up for the creation myth, just to explain the different main (known) races.

I don't think the Fryans will have bothered about the wakestars of Finda and Lyda.

### Posted 18 December 2011 - 10:11 AM
Knul, on 18 December 2011 - 03:00 AM, said:
Lek en brek is a standard modern Frisian expression, meaning shortage of anything. Expression: Der is gjin minske sunder lek of brek - there is no one without shortcomings.

Good to know that the expression is still in use, but what I said is that a more literal translation would be "leak and break".

Translations "LEK AND BREK"

Ottema (1876): "schade en gebrek" (damage/loss & lack)
Sandbach (1876): "loss and misery"
Jensma (2006): "gemis en gebrek" (lack/loss & lack)
De Heer (2008) as Ottema

I like my translations as literal as possible and would therefore choose: "leak/lack & break" or in Dutch "lek & gebrek/breuk". Beautiful metaphor.


### Posted 18 December 2011 - 10:42 AM
The Puzzler, on 18 December 2011 - 04:21 AM, said:
Here's a word that retains the pamp - that is 'pamphlet' - a piece of paper. ...
Pampier in French seems to gel with pamplet here - the pamp is always there - but does it come from the term for pumpkin? or as the word pompe bledar? Which means what literally? Bleeding heart or water lily leaf?


Yes a relation between "pamphlet" and the Oldfrisian word for paper, "pampier" would make sense.
(I know traditional etymology suggests something else.)

In the OLB the new 'writing-felt' (paper) was made of POMPA-BLÉDAR, in Dutch pompebladen; waterlily-leaves.

Pumpkin-leaves sounds similar, and it is possible that the word pumpkin (dutch Pompoen) is derived from oldfrisian POMP, but it is a different plant, and therefore not a good translation. I think Sandbach was simply mistaken.

The association with the heart-shape (or something else) will have helped to make the leaf a national symbol.

Friese vlag, 1971 by Lode Pemmelaar (1942-1997)


### Posted 18 December 2011 - 11:56 AM
Knul, on 18 December 2011 - 10:50 AM, said:
lek is not leak in the expression lek and brek, but English lack, brek is not breuk but gebrek.

I think it's pretty obvious that LEK, LEAK and LACK are etymologically related, as well as BREK, GEBREK, BREAK and BREUK. But I will leave the conclusion to every individual reader.

### Posted 18 December 2011 - 12:10 PM
Knul, on 18 December 2011 - 11:01 AM, said:
There is no Oldfrisian word pampyr, only papier.

There is, but I ment 'old school'-Frisian:

Otharus, on 17 December 2011 - 06:58 PM, said:
1816 De hudde Wijn dij hie wat proesd / En onder de Pampieren poesd. P.G. DEKETH, pijtter, strofenr. 46
1824 Ho earm binne wij oon marcken, omme for-schaette, heegjende in leegjende luwden ... op it pampier mielje to kinnen. R. POSTHUMUS, prieuwcke, XIII
1882 Pieter (is) oan de doar ... in greate rol pampier ûnder de earm. P.J. TROELSTRA, wiersizzery, (6)
Source: http://gtb.inl.nl/iW...3&lemma=pampier


### Posted 18 December 2011 - 03:35 PM

Abramelin, on 18 December 2011 - 02:57 PM, said:
"with a small house upon it out of which they look at the stars"

The original fragment [106/16]:

EN LÍTH HUSKE THÉR VPPA. HWÁNA MAN THA STÀRA BISJATH

### Posted 18 December 2011 - 03:43 PM
Abramelin, on 18 December 2011 - 03:19 PM, said:
I have also wondered why those (national) yellow flowers changed into red and looked like hearts.
Are there still old flags/emblems around with these flowers still being yellow?


Not the flowers are used, but the leaves.

### Posted 18 December 2011 - 03:51 PM
This is Radboud with shield, by Pier Winsemius in "Chronique ofte Historische geschiedenisse van Vrieslant" (1662):

### Posted 18 December 2011 - 04:02 PM


### Posted 18 December 2011 - 04:56 PM
First page of Die cronycke van Hollandt, Zeelandt ende Vrieslant, better known as Divisiekroniek (1519) by Cornelius Aurelius.

Transcription by Karin Tilmans (http://www.karintilmans.nl/pdf/dk1-29.pdf):
"Die Chronyk van Hollandt, Zeelandt
ende Vriesland, beghinnende van Adams
tyden, tot die geboerte ons Heren Jhesu,
voortgaende tot den jare M CCCCC ende
xvij. Met den rechten oerspronc, hoe Hollandt
eerst begrepen ende bewoent is gheweest van
den Troyanen
. Ende is inhoudende van die herto
gen van Beyeren, Henegouwen ende Bourgongen;
die tijt dat si an 't graefscap geweest hebben;
met die cronike der biscoppen van Uutrecht,
seer suverlic geëxtendeert ende in 't lange verhaelt."


Translation of underlined fragment:
"With the right origin, how Holland was first taken and inhabited by the Trojans"

### Posted 18 December 2011 - 05:32 PM
For the record, "Mare Mediterraneu" a.k.a. "Middel Zee" in 1519 Divisiekroniek (1st division, 5th capittel, p.004v):

### Posted 20 December 2011 - 12:05 PM
Abramelin, on 20 December 2011 - 12:52 AM, said:
Just in case some of you forgot the Frisians venerated Maria above God or Jesus.

From (page 279-280): "Verhandeling over het Westland" (1844) Buddingh (too busy to translate)

### Posted 20 December 2011 - 12:28 PM
Knul, on 19 December 2011 - 06:20 PM, said:
A good indication, that the OLB stems from the 19th century is the word stât,-a = state,-s, which is not Oldfrisian.

It is. Richthofen's Oldfrisian dictionary (1840):


### Posted 20 December 2011 - 03:32 PM
I know these fragments. State or estate is a plausible (and close to orig.) translation. But how would that prove that the text is new?
Imagine, a 'new' oldfrisian text is discovered and proven to be authentic.
It is a few hundred pages long, and older than any known oldfrisian text.
Would it be intelligent to expect and demand that it only has words in it that are already known from the texts we have and in the exact same meaning that we know them?
Wouldn't it be very possible that we would discover that some words and expressions are actually older than we thought?

### Posted 20 December 2011 - 03:47 PM
Abramelin, on 19 December 2011 - 09:53 PM, said:
Notice the OLB for the letter -A- and -W-.

Hypothesis: VV = W = ω = Ω

I suspect that the oldfrisian VV (double 'ooh', as in 'pooh') became the greek O-mega (big 'o').

### Posted 20 December 2011 - 04:06 PM
Abramelin, on 20 December 2011 - 03:47 PM, said:
The problem with 'modern' words showing up in a manuscript that is supposed to be millennia old, is that in much more recent manuscripts these words are never used in that meaning.
Like: 3000 years ago XXX meant 1234, then 2000 years later XXX meant 4567, and then again just a few centuries ago it suddenly meant 1234 again.
That is not very likely to happen.


I don't think it's very unlikely to happen.
Just imagine a trend-setter who uses a word in a very old or oldfashioned meaning, and others take over.
The same word can have slightly different meanings in different regions.
We see that often with European languages, but even in various dialects.

### Posted 20 December 2011 - 10:11 PM
Mr. M. de Haan Hettema (author of 1832 Oldfrisian dictionary) in Leeuwarder Courant (5 sept. 1871) about the OLB:

"It was written in the Frisian language; I don't know a distinction between Oldfrisian and Land- or Farmers-Frisian. I only know another and newer spelling of that language, because the pronounciation of Frisian is virtually the same as some ages ago, which was demonstrated by the worldfamous linguist the Danish prof. R. Rask in his Frisian grammar [...]
Concerning the spelling in this text, this in my opinion is much more in accordance with the older and very regular, and much better and regular than of those, who nowadays write that language; it would be desirable, that one would adapt that spelling, so there would be more unity of spelling, and the origin of the language would, better than now, be conserved. People nowadays write it with Dutch sounds, and in contemporary Dutch writing style. But this is no surprise. None of the later writers in that language, including Gijsbert Japiks and the Halbertsma brothers, have taken the spelling of the old manuscripts into account. Only T.R. Dijkstra and H.S. Sytstra tried to follow the tracks of the old and kept seeing the value of that spelling."

(improvised translation by me)

### Posted 21 December 2011 - 10:25 AM
Abramelin, on 20 December 2011 - 10:43 PM, said:
But how is a Hettema able to know who pronounced Old Frisian best?

Yes, I would be skeptical about that part too.
But the rest is relevant, and he could know what he was talking about.
He made an Oldfrisian dictionary and studied the grammar...

"It was written in the Frisian language; I don't know a distinction between Oldfrisian and Land- or Farmers-Frisian. [...]
Concerning the spelling in this text, this in my opinion is much more in accordance with the older and very regular, and much better and regular than of those, who nowadays write that language; it would be desirable, that one would adapt that spelling, so there would be more unity of spelling, and the origin of the language would, better than now, be conserved. People nowadays write it with Dutch sounds, and in contemporary Dutch writing style. But this is no surprise. None of the later writers in that language, including Gijsbert Japiks and the Halbertsma brothers, have taken the spelling of the old manuscripts into account."


### Posted 21 December 2011 - 10:49 AM
Leendert Floris Over de Linden (1837-1919) was a son of Cornelis (1811-1874).

In 1877 he published his answer to Beckering Vinckers with the title "Beweerd maar niet Bewezen" (claimed but not proven).

Here's a translation of what he wrote about his father's relationship with bookbinder Stadermann, one of the 'suspects' in some of the hoax-theories.

"Concerning the frienship between my father and mister Stadermann, I record that this was not more than relation of friendly neighbors, at most during one year, in 1847. After that my father moved house and the relation ended entirely."

Original text:
"Betrekkelijk de vriendschap tusschen mijn vader en den Heer Stadermann teeken ik aan, dat die zich bepaald heeft tot den omgang als welwillende buren, hoogstens één jaar lang, in 1847. Na dien tijd is mijn vader verhuisd en hield de omgang geheel op."

### Posted 21 December 2011 - 11:28 AM
Abramelin, on 08 October 2011 - 09:07 PM, said:
... it was this same Ottema who had noticed that the numerals as introduced by the OLB Godfreyath the Witking were very similar to what he saw in a Dutch library (The Royal Library/"De Koninklijke Bibliotheek" in The Hague), ie. on a copy of a plate from the Alhambra (Granada).

L.F. Over de Linden ("Beweerd maar niet bewezen", 1877) also refers to this:

"The most important peculiarity, concerning the origin of our numbers - called 'Arabic', but never used by the Arabs - the peculiarity that these numbers, in the 'Yul' as in the manuscript, appear as ornamentfigures in the decorations of the Alhambra, the greatest memorial of Morish architecture in Spain..."

### Posted by Alewyn Raubenheimer 23 December 2011 - 04:52 PM
Abramelin, on 23 December 2011 - 01:08 PM, said:
The date of 2194 BCE in the Oera Linda Book, what was it based on?
-1- Astrology (some special and rare conjunction)?
-2- Astronomy (an actual/probable impact of a comet - Edmund Halley/William Whiston/Alewyn)
-3- Biblical chronology (Friesche Volksalmanak)?
-4- A combination of 1&2 or 1&3 or 2&3 ?
I think we have covered every possibility by now, but for option -3- I did find something new:


You left out one possibility:

-5- Direct observation, i.e. the OLB is based on fact.

Biblical chronology and, by implication, the Friesche Volksalmanak which is based thereon is unlikely. Why would they have used an inferred or calculated Biblical date (i.e. the Bible was their prime, and only source) and not have used the Biblical description of the flood. The OLB and Biblical descriptions of the flood are completely different from one another.

### Posted 24 December 2011 - 10:25 PM
Jolly Yule!
Christmas - English
Kerstmis/ Kerst(-feest) - Dutch
Weihnachten/ Christfest - German
Jul - Danish
Jul - Swedish
Jul/ Jol - Norwegian
Jól - Icelandic
Fragments with "JOL" (Joel, Yol, Juul, Yule, Wheel) in OLB

JOL.FÉRSTE = Jol-feast
JOL.TID = Jol-time
JOL.DÉI = Jol-day

In verb:
JOLDON = cheered, howled
JOLANDE = cheering, howling

{original fragments from OLB with page and line number; O+S = Ottema (Dutch) and Sandbach (English) translations from 1876, with minimal corrections}

[002/16]
ALTOMET TVILDON ÀND JOLDON HJA TO SAMNE VPPA HÉM
JEFTHA HJA WÉRON MITH EKKORUM BY THÉRE HÉRD

[O+S p.7]
Somtijds dartelden en joelden zij te zamen op het hiem,
of zij waren met elkander bij den haard
They played and gamboled [howled] together in the fields,
and were also together by the hearth


[006/19]
AFTER.ET TWILIFTE JOL.FÉRSTE BÀRDE HJU THRJA MANGÉRTA
[O+S p.13]
Na het twaalfde Juulfeest bragt zij voort drie maagden
After the twelfth Juulfeest she brought forth three maidens

[006/30]
ÀND NW BÀRDON EK TWILIF SVNA ÀND TWILIF TOGETHERA.
EK JOL.TID TWÉN

[O+S p.13]
En nu baarden zij elk twaalf zonen en twaalf dochteren,
elke juultijd een paar
They each bore twelve sons and twelve daughters —
at every Juul-time a couple


[014/10]
ALLE SETMA THÉR EN ÉW. THÀT IS HVNDRED JÉR OMHLÁPA MÜGE
MITH THA KRODAR ÀND SIN JOL [...]

[O+S p.23]
Alle inzettingen die eene eeuw, dat is honderd jaren, mogen omloopen
met den Kroder (kruijer) en zijn Juul [...]
All the regulations which have existed [can go round] a century, that is, a hundred years
[with the carrier and his Wheel] [...]


[020/21]
ALLE.T MÀRK.JELD MOT JÉRLIKES DÉLATH WRDE.
THRJA DÉGAN FAR THÉRE JOL.DÉI

[O+S p.33]
Al het marktgeld moet jaarlijks verdeeld worden,
drie dagen voor den Juuldag
All the market receipts must be divided yearly [...]
three days before the Juul-day


[037/24]
THA FOLK BIGOST TO JOLANDE ÀN TO SPOTANDE
[O+S p.55]
Het volk begon te joelen en te spotten
The people began to mock [howl] and to jeer

[045/09]
HWÀT HIR BOPPA STÀT SEND THI TÉKNA FON THÀT JOL
[O+S p.65]
Wat hier boven staat, dat zijn de teekens van het Juul
What appears at the top is the signs of the Juul

[045/12]
THÀT IS THENE KRODER THÉR ÉVG MITH THÀT JOL MOT OMMEHLÁPE
[O+S p.65]
deze is de Kroder, die eeuwig met het Juul moet rondloopen
this is the Kroder, which must always go round with the Juul

[045/30]
MEN HJA NISTON NAVT GOD THÀT.ET FON ET JOL MÁKAD WAS
ÀND THAT.ET THÉRUMBE ALTID SKRÉVEN WRDEN MOSTE. MITH SON OM

[O+S p.67]
Maar zij wisten niet goed, dat het van het Juul gemaakt was,
en dat het daarom altijd moest geschreven worden met de zon om
but they did not know that it was taken from the Juul,
and must therefore always be written round like the sun


[052/22]
ACTHTANTICH JÉR FORTHER. JUST WÉRET JOL.FÉRSTE.
THÉR KÉMON HJA VNWARLINGE LIK SNÉI THRVCH STORNE.WIND DRÉWEN
OVIR VSA LANDA TO RUNNANDE

[O+S p.75]
Tachtig jaren later, juist was het Juulfeest,
kwamen zij onverwacht, gelijk sneeuw door een stormwind gedreven,
over onze landen toeloopen
Eighty years afterwards, just at the time of the Juul-feest,
they overran our country like a snowstorm driven by the wind


[067/25]
LIK BLIXEN.FJVR GVNG.ET O.ERA A.LANDA.
ÀND ÉR THES KRODER.S JOL ÉNIS OMHLÁPEN HÉDE.
WAS HJU MÁSTERINNE [...]

[O+S p.95]
Als bliksemvuur ging het over de landen,
en eer des Kroders juul eens omgeloopen was,
was zij meesteres [...]
The news flew through the land like lightning,
and before the carrier's wheel had made one revolution
she was mistress [...]


[071/26]
HWAND THENE KRODER SKIL JETA FIF.THUSAND.JÉR MITH SIN JOL OMME.HLÁPA [...]
[O+S p.101]
want de Kroder zal nog vijfduizend jaren met zijn Jol omloopen [...]
because the carrier must make five thousand revolutions of his Juul

[083/22]
VNDERA TÍDUM THAT ALDLAND SVNKEN IS.
STAND THJU FORMA SPÉKE FON THET JOL AN TOP

[O+S p.115]
In de tijden, dat Atland verzonken is,
stond de eerste spaak van het Juul in top
At the time of the submersion of Atland,
the first spoke of the Juul stood at the top


[084/11]
FRYDOM. LJAFDE ÀND ÉNDRACHT SKILET FOLK IN HJARA WÁCH NÉMA
ÀND MITH THET JOL RISA UTA WLA POL

[O+S p.117]
vrijheid, liefde en eendracht zullen het volk in hare hoede nemen,
en met het juul uit de vuile poel rijzen
freedom, love, and unity will take the people under their protection,
and [with the Wheel] rise out of the vile pool


[094/02]
ALREK KÉM WITHER UT. TO JUWGANDE ÀND TO JOLANDE
[O+S p.131]
Iedereen kwam weder uit om te juichen en te joelen
the people all came out shouting with joy

[099/26]
MITH THET JOL WANDELATH ÀND WIXLATH ALLET ESKÉPNE.
MEN GOD IS ALLÉNA VNFORANDERLIK

[O+S p.137]
Met het Juul verandert en wisselt al het geschapene,
maar het goede is alleen onveranderlijk
In the progress of time [with the Wheel] all creation alters and changes,
but goodness alone is unalterable


[106/25]
SIATH HWA FONÉRE TORE DEL
SA SIATH HI THJU DÁNTE FON.ET JOL

[O+S p.147]
Ziet iemand boven van den toren naar beneden,
dan ziet hij de gedaante van het Juul
If one looks down from the tower,
he sees the form of the Juul


[189/02]
BRÉF FON RIKA THJU ALD.FÁM.
VPSÉID TO STÁVEREN BY.T JOL.FÉRSTE

[O+S p.229]
Brief van Rika de oudmaagd,
voorgelezen te Staveren bij het juulfeest
Letter of Rika the Oudmaagd [Oldfam],
read at Staveren at the Juul Feast


[192/27]
NIMMAN SKIL.ER ÀWET AN BÊTRA NE MÜGE
BIFÁRA THÀT JOL INOP EN ÔRE HLÁP.HRING TRÉTH

[O+S p.233]
niemand zal er iets aan kunnen verbeteren,
bevorens het Juul een anderen loopkring intreedt
they shall receive no succour
before the Juul shall enter upon a new circuit


### Posted 25 December 2011 - 12:00 AM
Abramelin, on 24 December 2011 - 11:00 PM, said:
You forgot about Juul (Juliana), the former queen of the Netherlands, lol.

Juliana, Julius, Jules, Yolanda, etc. Names derived from JOL.
### Posted 27 December 2011 - 08:24 AM
Van Gorp, on 27 December 2011 - 12:41 AM, said:
About Joel, Jol, Youlios:
When this feast was about the coming together of all the worlds at the end of the cycle (ultima Thule, thule-tieme Tsjoël -> het doel as is meant in Dutch for the ultimate aim),
When this point is reached, it brings "t ultiem geluk", really "Jolich" see 'jolig' in Flemish, mijn jolijke ik.
They Joelde in 2 different meanings:
1) The death 'Tsjoolde' (see the flemish verb: 'tjoln', wandering around I think they call it in English) among the living at Jol
2) The living 'Joelde' from Joy
When Jolius is radiant as the youth, it has to do with the birth of the sun and the reflection of the light (that means that we are delighted).
That's why we call jewels as we call them (originally JUweeL, the wheel of Jol is fulfilled and brings the light -> makes the world radiant and receptive for the ultimate Joy)


Thank you for joining indeed VG, you are very welcome.
This discussion needs someone who knows about Flemish and etymology, even - or I would say specially - if it's 'alternative', unofficial etymology!

The associations with JOL you added are very interesting and plausible.
To resume and add to that:
JOL
Thule
Tol (Dutch word for spinning toy; whirlabout?)
Toll (German word for 'great', super)
Dolen (Dutch for wander about, walking in circles)
Tjoln, Tsjolen (Flemish version)
Jolly (the English word)
Jolig, Jolich, Jolik (Dutch/ Flemish version)
Joelen, Jolen (Dutch/ Flemish for: to cheer, to howl
Jewel
Juweel (Dutch version)
Sol, Helios, Julius, etcetera as Puzzler pointed out.

I would not be surprised is the Dutch "Lol" (fun, joy) would be related too.
(I know that in Westfriesland "Jol" is also a family name, and of course there is "Van Jole")
I'm sure we can make this list much longer, which is only normal, considering the importance and symbolic meaning of the JOL.

### Posted by Alewyn Raubenheimer 27 December 2011 - 08:41 AM
Van Gorp, on 26 December 2011 - 05:00 PM, said:
Alewyn, I find your research results very interresting & plausible.
I have not read the full thread, so excuse me if the subject was allready covered before.

Do you have any thoughts/links in your book/research about the linguistic theories set forth by scientists as Becanus, Schrieck and consorts?
Is there no similar discussion going on in your area (and fora I see ;-) as with the Becanus/Scopius views against the Lipsius/Scalliger alikes?

In short: the classical view of "Latin <- Greek <- Egypt is the way of our civilisation/language", does not stand anymore ... seems to be the bottomline. If you look it linguistic, or mythological. Even more so if there truly were some 'errors' in the dark age timeline. But as I understood from readers of OLB, this story is mainly told as a 'Fries' story.


Hi Van Gorp,

My apologies for only responding now but I do not look at this forum every day.

I am afraid you have to address linguistic questions to people like Puzzler, Abramelin and Otharus. They are far more knowledgeable on the subject than I am.

The investigations into the OLB over the last 140 years by others mainly concentrated on the language it was written in. The conclusions reached were not conclusive, in my opinion, and I decided to approach the OLB from a somewhat different angle. I wanted to see whether we have any other historical and scientific evidence that can bear out the (preposterous) claims made in the book – especially those facts that were not known in the 19th century when the book first surfaced. From that angle I believe that I have proven beyond reasonable doubt that the OLB is not a 19th century hoax. The historical picture that emerged is very fascinating and shows that our entrenched perceptions of early antiquity are simply wrong.

The others here have discovered a lot of supporting evidence to my stance but, if I was to include it all in my book, I would have to update it at least once a month, e.g. the very interesting posts by Abramelin recently regarding Halley and Stonehenge. (Lol, there I go sucking up again). That would make my book somewhat intimidating and unappealing to the average reader.

The debate and further investigations here is exactly what I had hoped for. Thus far the evidence against the hoax theory has been mounting steadily whereas the arguments in favour of the hoax theory are whittling away.

I may just add that the OLB does not describe a bolide impact or impacts with earth; that is my interpretation from the description before and after “the bad times” in the book as well as from other sources. It is interesting, though, that others have also reached the same conclusion long before me, e.g. Halley, Velikovsky, Plato, etc. The scientific community (in certain circles) is now also looking seriously at this. I have no doubt that they will soon find out that earth is suffering much more frequently from disastrous impacts than was thought until now (that is, rather every few hundred or thousand years rather than every few million years).

Who knows, perhaps someone here will even write a sequel to my book, LOL.

### Posted 27 December 2011 - 11:07 AM
The Puzzler, on 27 December 2011 - 09:22 AM, said:
"Perhaps a Germanic loan-word from a source akin to O.N. jol "a winter feast" (see yule)"

Dutch - English
jolig - jolly
prettig - pretty
zonnig - sunny
fruitig - fruity

### Posted 27 December 2011 - 11:16 AM
Knul, on 27 December 2011 - 10:04 AM, said:
Joelen has a different etymology from joel-yule.

In OLB it is spelled with "JOL-" (JOLDON, JOLANDE).
The old Dutch spelling is "jolen".
If there would be an English version, it would be "to yool"?

It's obvious the words are related, just like jolig/ jolich/ jolly.

'Official' etymology is founded mostly on wild guesses.

When OLB is accepted to not be a hoax (as I am sure will happen), etymology as we know it will make a HUGE leap forward.

### Posted 27 December 2011 - 11:26 AM
Alewyn, on 27 December 2011 - 08:41 AM, said:
The investigations into the OLB over the last 140 years by others mainly concentrated on the language it was written in.

If this was true, the mystery would have been solved a long time ago.

Since the aggressive nonsense published by Beckering Vinckers in the 1870s, no scholar of reputation has dared to burn fingers on the subject, because even considering that the manuscript might possibly be authentic was/is taboo and will lead to ridicule and excommunication from the 'scientific' community.

Jensma (in 2004) focused on who might have been behind the assumed conspiracy and what might have been their motives.

### Posted 27 December 2011 - 11:51 AM
The Puzzler, on 27 December 2011 - 11:47 AM, said:
But maybe as in all things OLB there is 2 different words really

That would be JOL-LIK; Jol-like

### Posted 27 December 2011 - 04:49 PM
The Puzzler, on 27 December 2011 - 01:16 PM, said:
The only Jol word in the Frisian dictionary takes you to jahwelik...

Which demonstrates that the (online) Frisian dictionaries do not give a complete account of the Oldfrisian language. Perhaps from the words that occur in the known written medieval sources, but the spoken language must have contained an equivalent for "yule", as all (or most) north-European languages seemed to have known this word.

I would not be surprised if the word (and related words) were taboo here in the (Christian) Middle Ages, as all sacred symbols of the old culture were fanatically destroyed.

Wiki (a quick sample):
Scandinavian languages: Jul/ Jol
German: Julfest
English: Yule
Finnish: Joulu
Estonian: Jõulud
Sölring (Sylter Frisian): Jül/ Jööl
Dutch: Joelfeest
Old-English: ġéol, ġéohol, ġéola, ġéoli

German Wiki:
"Die älteste Erwähnung des Wortes Jul findet sich im gotischen Kalenderfragment Codex Ambrosianus A aus dem sechsten oder siebenten Jahrhundert nach Christus." etc.

Translated:
"The earliest mention of the word Jul is found in the Gothic Calendarfragment Codex Ambrosianus A from the sixth or seventh century AD." etc.

### Posted 28 December 2011 - 10:50 PM
Knul, on 28 December 2011 - 06:54 PM, said:
Official etymology is based on scientific studies of many generations of scientists not on pseudo-etymology of the type of jol-joldon, jol-Jolande, jol- jolly and jol-jollick, presented by Otharus. This non-scientific approach is certainly not a way to proof the authenticity of the OLB. It's just too silly for words.

Source: http://www.etymologiebank.nl/trefwoord/jolijt
JOLIJT (VREUGDE, PLEZIER)

P.A.F. van Veen en N. van der Sijs (1997), Van Dale Etymologisch woordenboek

jolijt [vrolijkheid] {jolijt, jolijs [vreugde] 1276-1300} eig. het zelfstandig gebruikt bn. jolijs, jolijt [vrolijk] < frans joli [idem], uit het germ., vgl. oudnoors jōl [kerstmis] (vgl. joelfeest).


I did not claim to be "scientific" or practice "etymology".

That jol, jolen, jolig, jolijt etc. are related could not be more obvious, not only because of the common root, but also because of their association with celebration.

I suppose that is not something Knul knows very much about.

(sorry old man, you have been begging for it)

### Posted 29 December 2011 - 08:06 AM
Knul, on 29 December 2011 - 06:20 AM, said:
vnder-et weld thes Magy kêmen
that er weldig skolde wertha

onder het gezag van de Magy gekomen
dat hij gewelddadig zou worden

had fallen under the power of Magy
as if his power was to become supreme


Your English translation is not very good, but it is better than your Dutch one.
Isn't that weird?
WELDIG is not "gewelddadig" (violent), but mighty, powerful, influential.
If you want to stay close to the original, use "geweldig" (machtig).
You have not read COL's essay about the word WELD and how it relates to WRALDA?

### Posted 29 December 2011 - 08:30 PM
Abramelin, on 29 December 2011 - 07:36 PM, said:
I have said that someone or some people have been cherry-picking from ancient Frisian, Greek and Roman legends.
But I am quite sure they left out the really mythical things, just to make their fabricated story sound sane and believable.


Many things that were considered utterly insane and unbelievable by most 19th century experts, are actually quite plausible for us nowadays...

### Posted 30 December 2011 - 12:52 PM
Abramelin, on 30 December 2011 - 11:19 AM, said:
I just found out Overwijn really transliterated every underscore and point in the text too. ...
But what he also did (I removed it from the quote) is give a name like "âst. flyy.land" an extra -y- to stress the way it should be pronounced according to him: -yy- is pronounced as (English) -ee- (in Dutch it would be -ie- ).


Jensma (2006) and De Heer (2008) both made new transliterations (I have found minor mistakes in both).

Sample of full two pages Jensma:

1. photocopy of original manuscript
2. transliteration
3. three columns for different types of footnotes
4. Dutch 'translation' (not one I am happy with)

Sample of transliteration Jensma:
Sample of transliteration/ translation De Heer:
With footnotes on the bottom of every page.

### Posted 30 December 2011 - 03:16 PM
Abramelin, on 30 December 2011 - 01:53 PM, said:
I think I prefer Jensma's transliteration because - judging from what you posted - he kept the lines at the original length including breaks, tildes and all. Also I think his use of the capital 'eth', or Ð is really handy.

Yes a consequent line-numbering is handy, but for my personal study I also like to separate sentences.
That letter is OK for print-version, but a normal keyboard doesn't have it; for an online version it would not be good (how to do a word search?).

Here's an experiment (this time not aimed at providing smooth translation, but for study of the language):
### Posted 30 December 2011 - 05:13 PM
Abramelin, on 30 December 2011 - 03:52 PM, said:
I don't have a special keyboard at all: Ð.
I got it with [CAPS LOCK] and then [rightside - ALT] [D].


On the keyboard I'm working with now, that doesn't work, but there must be a way.

Psychologically, for people who are new to this, it might make the threshold higher when uncommon letters are used. Either way, I'm fine with it.

Quote
Your experiment looks ok, but I think maybe you could leave out the part bottom-left; it looks redundant.

Yeah, I just thought it might be easier for beginners (and dyslectics). I work with a file myself with the original text only, and I let every new sentence start on a new line, makes it easier to read and concentrate. For now it's a little effort. In a print-version I would probably not include both.

Quote
(funny I never saw it, lol: "ethlum", shouldn't that be translated as "nobility" (Dutch: edelen) ?? )

According to Hettema, "ethla" can both mean "edelen" (nobility) as ancestors.
But in OLB, the context seems to indicate that it (originally?) just means ancestors.
Nobility might be a later meaning.
I guess the word is related to "ath".

### Posted 30 December 2011 - 05:54 PM
Experiment part 2:
And part 3:

### Posted by Alewyn Raubenheimer 30 December 2011 - 07:16 PM
Whilst you are on the subject of the OLB's translation:

I have been wanting to share this little thought for some time now (Ever since Otharus pointed out that "Pompa Bleder" did not mean "Pumpkin Leafs" but rather "Water Lily Leafs")

The OLB describes the civil war that broke out between Minerva’s and Syrhed’s followers in ca. 1630 BC. One of the main reasons was the fact that Minerva’s followers started making paper from “pompa bledar” or water lily leafs (Nuphar lutea) instead of from flax, thereby destroying one of the main sources of income of Syrhed’s followers.

The results of the war were that the Fryan Federation broke up, the Celts came into being and the foundations of the later Greek Civilization were laid.

This little leaf, which appears on the Frisian flag today, radically changed world history.

I shall think about this every time I see the Frisian flag.

### Posted 31 December 2011 - 10:57 AM
Alewyn, on 31 December 2011 - 09:32 AM, said:
Perhaps Otharus could tell us more about the symbolism of the flag.

In classical heraldry, these are the symbolic meanings of the colors:
Red - courage, sacrifice
White - loyalty, fidelity
Blue- truth, knowledge

More practically, red is much better recognizable from a distance on a flag or shield, than green.

The combination red-white-blue is still used in the flags of many nations, like:
Netherlands
United Kingdom
France
Norway
Iceland
United States

### Posted 31 December 2011 - 12:15 PM
Alewyn, on 31 December 2011 - 09:18 AM, said:
Correct transliteration, imo, is the first step in translation, but I shall leave that to people more knowledgeable on the subject. ...
It may well be that a more accurate transliteration could alter the translation as well.


Alewyn, your translation of "FAM" into Matron, rather than priestess, maagd or virgin is an improvement.

I didn't read much yet, but I found one example of an edit from you that is actually the opposite of an improvement.

It is a fragment that was discussed several times in the forum, so first I will repeat (quotes edited):

Otharus, on 13 October 2010 - 01:32 PM, said:
(OLB page 6; FORMA SKEEDNISE or "Survivors of the Great Tsunami" p. 312; Chapter II, pt.10/11):

"... RING AS HJA RIP WEERON KREEION HJA FRUUCHDA AND NOCHTA ANDA DRAMA.
WR.ALDA.S OD TRAD TO RA BINNA. AND NW..."

Note that there is a point (.) between "DRAMA" and "WR.ALDA.S" and that there is no point between "WR.ALDA.S" and "OD".

The translations:

Ottema 1876 (dutch):
"Zoodra zij volwassen waren, kregen zij vermaak en genoegen in de droomen van Wralda.
Haat trad tot haar binnen."

Sandbach 1876 (english):
"As soon as they were full grown they took pleasure and delight in the visions of Wr-alda.
Hatred found its way among them."

Wirth 1933 (german):
(He just left out "RING ... DRAMA"!!!)
"Od (Gottes Odem) trat zu ihnen ein..."

Overwijn 1941 (dutch):
"Zodra zij volwassen waren, kregen zij vreugde en genoegen in de dromen van Wralda.
Geneugte kwam tot haar."

Jensma 1992 (dutch):
"Zodra zij volwassen waren, kregen ze vreugde en plezier in de dromen van Wralda.
Een spits trad in hun binnen, ..."

Snyman 1998 (afrikaans):
"En toe hulle volgroeid was, het hulle vreugde en genoegdoening geput uit die visioene van Wralda.
Haat het (egter) hulle harte binnegedring."

Jensma 2006 (dutch):
"Zo rap als ze rijp waren, kregen ze vreugde en genoten in Wralda's extase.
Gelukzaligheid trad tot hen binnen, ..."

de Heer 2008 (dutch):
"Zodra zij rijp waren kregen zij vreugde en genoegen en dromen.
Wralda's licht trad bij hen binnen, ..."

Note that de Heer (2008) is the first to correctly put the point between "dromen" and "Wralda´s".

Overview of the various translations of "OD":
Haat; Hatred (Ottema 1876, Sandbach 1876, Snyman 1998)
Gottes Odem; God´s breath (Wirth 1933)
Geneugte; pleasure (Overwijn 1941)
Een spits; a phallic object (Jensma 1992)
Gelukzaligheid; bliss (Jensma 2006)
Licht; light (de Heer 2008)

DISCUSSION
Ottema must have thought of the latin word "ODIUM" (meaning hatred) when he translated OD.
Od/Odr is a nordic root word meaning spirit, but in mythology is also the name of Freya´s lover or husband.

Logically, "od" might also have meant penis, semen or DNA, because after "od" penetrated the three young women, they became pregnant... It was probably an ambiguous, poetic word.

In my opinion it makes a huge difference if a creation myth says that our oldest ancestors were born out of hatred, or out of something more natural and hopefully even loving.


Otharus, on 12 April 2011 - 05:54 PM, said:
Apparently he [Cornelis Over de Linden] has helped Ottema solve several translating problems.

The following fragment of "De Gemaskerde God" (p.260 and footnotes) about this is interesting:

"A good example also is the correspondence about the translation of the word 'Od' (the most discussed word from the whole OLB in its literature)." [Here Jensma had placed a footnote, but this only reads: "cancelled"???]

"Ottema initially thought this would mean something like 'misfortune' or 'bad luck'. But Over de Linden knew exactly what the correct meaning of the word was:

"... page 6 [of Ottema's translation] reads OD TRAD TO RA BINNA translated as 'bad luck passed through the door' [onluk trad (de) deur binnen]. [...] Shouldn't it be: OD nature, life-force, fertilising force, or an even better word, entered her?" [letter 5 November 1871]

The word OD is related to Oldsaxon "ôd" - fortune- or good luck-bringing force [gelukbrengende kracht]. The Dutch word for stork, 'ooievaar' might have been derived from this.

Ottema did not accept this correction, he changed his interpretation and derived the word from Latin 'Odi' = I hate."

I find it absurd that Ottema ignored Over de Linden's suggestion and chose for the Latin "od" (hate) rather than the old-Saxon "ôd" (fortune or life-force) in his translation of "OD" in the creation myth. (In old-Norse it appears to have meant 'spirit', which would also fit more into the context than 'hate'.)

I can think of two possible explanations.

First, that he might have had the preconceived idea that the creation myth should have an 'original sin' type of element in it; pregnancy means bad luck?!

Second, that he might have felt embarrassed with any association to fertility.



In the transliteration and translation of this fragment, two mistakes were made by Ottema, that were copied by Sandbach and not corrected by Alewyn Raubenheimer.

1) The point between DRAMA and WR.ALDA.S was moved and placed between WR.ALDA.S and OD.

2) The word OD was translated as "haat"/ "hatred", based on Latin "odium", rather than on the Old-Norse or Old-Saxon "od"/ "odr" that has a positive meaning (spirit, life-force, fortune, etc).

Transliteration Ottema (1876):
"Ring as hja rip wêron krêjon hja früchda ånd nochta anda drâma Wr.aldas. Od trâd to-ra binna:"

Transliteration Otharus (2011):
"... RING AS HJA RIP WÉRON KRÉION HJA FRÜCHDA ÀND NOCHTA ANDA DRÁMA. WR.ALDA.S OD TRAD TO RA BINNA."

Translation Ottema (1876):
"Zoodra zij volwassen waren, kregen zij vermaak en genoegen in de droomen van Wralda. Haat trad tot haar binnen."

Translation Sandbach (1876):
"As soon as they were full grown they took pleasure and delight in the visions of Wr-alda. Hatred found its way among them."

Edited translation Alewyn Raubenheimer (2011):
"When she was full grown she took pleasure and delight in the visions of Wralda. Hatred entered them."

"Hja wêron rip" = they were ripe (plural), which also makes sense in the context of THREE mothers.

But what I really don't understand, is how anyone can make sense out of conception being caused by "hatred" entering a woman.

One may say, it's only a creation myth, but I repeat: it makes a huge difference if you believe that our ancestors believed life started out of hatred (or an angry god punishing our oldest ancestors by casting them out of paradise), or that you have a more positive and natural approach to the origin of life.

### Posted 01 January 2012 - 11:49 AM
Knul, on 01 January 2012 - 08:26 AM, said:
Wraldas od trad tora binna - Wralda's roede trad bij hen binnen.
od < hod - hoede 1. voorzichtigheid Eng. caution, 2. banier, vlaggestok, banner. Dutch hoede = Lat. cauda - penis, Eng. rod, Dutch roede. s. Oldfrisian hoda-hoeden


Yes, that makes much more sense! Thanks for that, Knul.
The 'head' of a penis (flagpole/ staff/ shaft) surely looks like a hood/ hat/ helmet.
But I would not completely rule out a connection with the Oldnorse/ Saxon "od".
The OLB language is full of ambiguities anyway.
Would the words "rod" and "hod" (and "mod"?) somehow be related to "od"?
Great rhyme-words...

So here's a new improvised English translation:
Soon as they were ripe, they got fruits/ joy (dutch: vruchten/ vreugden) and nuts/ pleasure (dutch: noten/ geneugten) in their dreams.
Wralda's rod (or spirit/ life-force) entered them, and now they gave birth to 12 suns and 12 daughters, each Joltime twins.
Thereof all people have come (descended).


Transliteration original text (manuscript page 6):
RING AS HJA RIP WÉRON KRÉJON HJA FRÜCHDA ÀND NOCHTA ANDA DRÁMA.
WR.ALDAS OD TRÀD TO RA BINNA.
ÀND NW BÀRDON EK TWILIF SVNA ÀND TWILIF TOGETHERA. EK JOL.TID TWÉN.
THÉROF SEND ALLE MÀNNESKA KÉMEN.


### Posted 01 January 2012 - 12:03 PM
Knul, on 31 December 2011 - 08:12 PM, said:
Even in modern Frisian language fam means female servant.

That is not quite correct.
In modern Frisian it means "woman", but in the OLB the context indicates that it was more of an honorary title, something like "lady" (dutch "vrouwe", which would be related to "freya").

### Posted 02 January 2012 - 02:22 PM
Knul, on 01 January 2012 - 12:18 PM, said:
You should look under faam or faamwezen: doet thuis het dienstbodenwerk, het als dienstbode dienen.

Interesting, but I think it's much more simple.

Modern Frisian "Famke" = young woman, therefore "Fam" would logically just mean "woman", just like the French "femme" (pronounced "fam") and the Latin "Femina".

I also think - different from classical etymology! - that the word "Family" is derived from it.

Frisian dictionary Wiarda (1786):
Idem Hettema (1832):
Idem Richthofen (1840):
### Posted 02 January 2012 - 02:55 PM
Van Gorp, on 02 January 2012 - 01:45 AM, said:
I tend to believe that the ancient gods (Helenic and Pagan) are stories and representations of tribe-migrations.

Hence, 'legends' are used by Greek and Roman suppressors to describe the history of the people they tried to dominate.
By learning 'our own' history through 'their' legends, things can get fussy some times.

The cultural/historical value of these legend-people seem to be more original than the Greek/Latin ones, and all relative to the ongoing transmigration of the Scytisch field people throughout Europe in the ages before and during the Greek/Roman domination of Europe.

Many Greek/Latin words are phonetically invented/written words of an Old Euro-Celtisch-Scytisch-Frysian-Belgae-... 'spraecke' (the language was spoken, not written).
And then we try to trace back the origin of words by their invented Greek/Latin counterpart?


Interesting views.

Quote
Below an extract of an 17th essay on the original language-spraec spoken by Belgae Scyths (similar to OLB story)
[...]


Interesting read. Thanks for that.
What is your view on the origin of the words "Belgae" and "Scyths"?
Do you know the word of the Westflemish alternative historian/ artist Joël Vandemaele?
He suggested that Belgae are related to Pelasgians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians

"The name Pelasgians (Greek: Πελασγοί, Pelasgoí, singular Πελασγός, Pelasgós) was used by some ancient Greek writers to refer to populations that were either the ancestors of the Greeks or who preceded the Greeks in Greece, "a hold-all term for any ancient, primitive and presumably indigenous people in the Greek world."[1] In general, "Pelasgian" has come to mean more broadly all the indigenous inhabitants of the Aegean Sea region and their cultures before the advent of the Greek language."

### Posted 02 January 2012 - 03:34 PM
Knul, on 02 January 2012 - 02:54 PM, said:
So you see, that the general term maiden, meid is used for a function in the household like melkmeid -milk maiden, kindermeisje - children's maiden, etc. and that the term has not been used for the head, chief of the household, which would be indicated as matrona = lady = vrouwe.See 3) in the last eigth lines. Knapa and famna belonged to the household as a remainal of the time of slavery.

But in OLB the word does not seem to have this meaning:
[061/28]
NW WILLATH WI SKRIWA VR THA ORLOCH THÉRA BURCH.FÁMNA KÀLTA ÀND MIN.ERVA
Now we will describe the war of the ... Kàlta and Minerva.

Burchfamna = (Dutch:) burchtvrouwen, stedenmaagden, burgemeesteressen? = (English:) borough-matron?

Amsterdam:
Antwerpen:
Enkhuizen:

Groningen:
Hamburg (city hall):
Notice the steering wheel.

### Posted 03 January 2012 - 08:40 AM
Van Gorp, on 03 January 2012 - 01:19 AM, said:
These quotes were indeed coming from Adriaan Schrieck's work.
In fact the introduction of
"Van t'beghin der eerster volcken van Europen. In sonderheyt vanden oorspronck ende saecken der Neder-Landren.
Met betoon vande dwalinghen der Griecken ende Latinen op t'selve Beghin ende den ghemeynen Oorspronck."

The PDF can be downloaded here:
Two quick (OLB-related) finds from the intro:


Schrieck's etymology of "Atlantis" (achter-land = behind-land) is different of that of OLB.
I leave conclusions for later.

### Posted 03 January 2012 - 09:44 AM
More Atlantis in Schrieck (1614) p.75/912:

My first impression is that many of Schrieck's etymologies make less sense than the ones given and suggested in OLB.
But that does by no means mean that all of it is nonsense.
It is interesting that both Scandinavia (Sweden) and the Low counties seem to have had a tradition of proving that their language was the one of before the Babylonian confusion of speech.

### Posted 03 January 2012 - 11:36 AM
Schrieck about the "Vriesen" (liber VIII, p.254-255):

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